subtlety

[slate marlin]

ust not on rogues besides 11.0.5

[fleet wharf]

are they basically giving up on aug being a support class now? they just seem to be getting aura buff after aura buffs

[tribal blade]

aug is still a support class, but it losing the power to buff healers and tanks makes it much less good in keys

but with enough tuning they. could be good again

aug still brings a lot of utility and stuff, so with big enough numbers they could be played again

[slate marlin]

Any class with giga numbers will be played in m+

[fleet wharf]

I dunno how to feel about more of their budget going towards their own damage vs buffing other classes

yea, utility doesn't matter at all for M+ it seems

[tribal blade]

it does and it doesn't

[slate marlin]

Utility matters if you are tied with another class on dps

[fleet wharf]

i mean if you look at assa, it was somewhat meta, nothing about their utility changed, and bam, no invites for rogues s2

[tribal blade]

boomy is super meta atm because of utility

they make certain pulls actually possible because of beam and all their cc

it's interesting, people tend to not invite boomies because "we need dmg", it's always "we need beam"

(but boomy does very good dmg too)

[slate marlin]

boomie dmg is quite strong as well

would argue its meta bc of utility+damage

[tribal blade]

and then you get vdhs who links priory routes designed for boomies with like 6=7 casters in the first pull when they arrive in phys comp

[fleet wharf]

uncapped aoe be good, who knew

[tribal blade]

and everyone has to be like "yeah we can't do that, we'll all die"

[slate marlin]

I get they use casters to limit how big you can pull

[fleet wharf]

I feel they need to give aoe kick to all the tanks

[slate marlin]

I dont like they still do that with the cc changes they did at the start of the xpac

[graceful osprey]

I’ve had a hunter forgot what rogues were and said in a M+ group “oh yeah, we have a rogue, they can cc I think”

[tribal blade]

i agree with this

[fleet wharf]

maybe we can sneak in there with aoe kicks too lmao

[tribal blade]

or some variation of aoe kick for every tank

vdh has it, so does prot warr, prot pal has toll

[fleet wharf]

is vdh going to be meta again for 11.2?

[tribal blade]

the other tanks should probably get something similar

brewmaster the most tbh

[slate marlin]

i have had to link shroud on some keys when people said we couldnt do skips

[fleet wharf]

but prot pally's toll isn't guaranteed I thought

[tribal blade]

yoda said he hates playing brew or any tank like that because he can't help out his group

[slate marlin]

tank utility is a mess yeah

[swift tinsel]

Wym toll isn’t guaranteed

[tribal blade]

i thought toll was guaranteed kicks, i could be mistaken

[near fog]

there are 4 tanks people think are generally close atm, which usually means either prot pally or vdh becomes the meta because they have more utility. the 4 being war pal monk dh

[slate marlin]

its either vdh or pala

[graceful osprey]

My favorite is when mobs are pulled with shroud up lol

[slate marlin]

toll silences mob iirc

[swift tinsel]

It did

Idk if something changed

[slate marlin]

yep, why take a monk if it survives the same as dh but without dh mob control

[tribal blade]

so is toll capped

or do all 5 of those sheilds bounce

[swift tinsel]

All five bounce iirc

[slate marlin]

bounces i believe

[tribal blade]

i legit don't know how toll works lol

ah ok so it is guaranteed kicks on everything i guess

[near fog]

doesnt shield only interrupt on its first hit now or something? thought that was a DF change?

[slate marlin]

i think is 5 shields all of which can bounce

[swift tinsel]

Yes

[slate marlin]

bc i have definetely seen way more than 5 shields on a toll cast

[glacial wind]

Yay i got my set done! :)

[swift tinsel]

The first target hit is interrupted, none of the bounces do

[tribal blade]

oh ok

[swift tinsel]

Unless they changed something recently

[slate marlin]

Idk

[swift tinsel]

There was something with grand crusader

But idr what

[slate marlin]

i dont know anything about paladin

[tribal blade]

it's still really good, the last time i ran priory with a prot pal he had 90 overall kicks

which is a lot

[fleet wharf]

90 is pretty nuts lol

[slate marlin]

ye but prot pala on 1st boss...yikes

[swift tinsel]

I usually only play holy if I’m playing paladin

[tribal blade]

lol yeah he can't pull trash into 1st boss sadly

which is sad days for sin

BUT

he can solo soak all the thingies on 2nd boss

[slate marlin]

Yep, plus all the kicks on a quite intensive kick dungeon

[tribal blade]

not even kidding, this guy was just eating it all and the dps didn't have to do shit

it was glorious

[fleet wharf]

Spell warding is such a bs skill

[slate marlin]

idk i have not seen many palas this season

[tribal blade]

but word of glory heals for nothing now

which is weird

like 2 mil average cast

[slate marlin]

granted i quit 2 months ago

[tribal blade]

so prot pals have to be babysat quite a lot right now on live

because their self sustain is pretty doodoo

[slate marlin]

That hasnt changed on ptr right?

[tribal blade]

from what i heard they still need to be babysat yeah

[slate marlin]

so vdh meta got it

[tribal blade]

but sometimes tanks that need to be babysat by healers can become the meta tank

[slate marlin]

If they have something needed for dungeons i guess

[tribal blade]

i think if they bring enough other stuff yeah

but generally the best tank will be the one who can actually live

[slate marlin]

But current vdh exists

[tribal blade]

it'll be interesting to see what happens

[short radish]

guaranteed kicks on the 1 targeted and 4 random mobs

only the first hit interrupts

the bounces don't

because having an aoe interrupt on a 1min (or 45 second) cd would be overpowered or something

[slate marlin]

Idk vdh seems to live quite well, and has strong mob control

[tribal blade]

teehee

[slate marlin]

I wonder if we will have the same 5 class meta this season

[fleet wharf]

I mean weren't there 2 different "meta" you could build? like the DK/boomie or the phys comp?

[slate marlin]

Didnt phys comp gain populsrity a bit later?

Like when people had already rerolled and stuff

i actuslly dont remember

[tribal blade]

yeah phys comp started gaining popularity mostly because of squishvegan's group

with ortemist/nox/wox/banshers

so going into this season people are already prepping to play phys comps at the start

it's going to be much more popular next season

[slate marlin]

yesh i remember some phys comp groups in lfg, but nowhere near the amount of dk boomie comps

[slate marlin]

yeah hopefuly, at least rogues could be invted there

[tribal blade]

100% yes

so long as rogues are tuned well

[fleet wharf]

I mean it seems competitive, give it some time, maybe next season there might be two diff meta comps that get played

[slate marlin]

Or as long as hunters cant survive keys

[fleet wharf]

but aren't hunters super tanky right now?

[tribal blade]

at least they're less squishy than they used to be 😉

[slate marlin]

that speaks a lot lmfao

[tribal blade]

they did gain tankiness with their rework from what i heard

[slate marlin]

yep

[fleet wharf]

they have a self/pet heal, 30 or 40% dr on 1.5 min cd, 2 charges, and an immunity in turtle stance

they usually don't press defensives, but that's playerbase issue

[slate marlin]

hmm if people play monk and rdruid i guess you would need a hunter for bl

[wary plover]

@vale pine are u simming now with Rashii dmg buff?

[vale pine]

wdym

the sims are with the legendary back

[wary plover]

they buffed the dmg tonight

I dont know how its works, if u have to implement it as custom or if it is auto implemented

[covert storm]

is there any considerations to be aware of with double coup on ptr/ do i want to maximise for ff stacks before i press dance or do i want to coup inside of dance since it does so much damage?

[shadow snow]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[wary plover]

for outlaw seems it is already implemented, for assa and sub cuz u did them yesterday it isnt

[vale pine]

i can re-run them

easy

moment

[left ledge]

It’s not just me that thinks we have an insane amount of passive bloat right

[vale pine]

done

[shadow snow]

We have 11.2 sims ?

[vale pine]

yes

!fuu light mode second tab

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

tho as always things might change

[lilac stag]

Nope. Bloated visibly and behind the scenes

[hollow spear]

Guys, I just woke up from a nightmare

It was about us not being the best finisher spec

Is that true?

[short radish]

yeah

[lilac stag]

No

[short radish]

we're acutally the best dot spec

[lilac stag]

Assa is

Envenom

Sectech

[steel zinc]

+15k from cloak buff

[hollow spear]

😭

[lilac stag]

hasted cucked again

Least I think it’s hasted. Crap now I’m not sure

[steel zinc]

Like 2nd s3 are nearly w/e just don't have haste

Also Also we have some cooked delve trinkets

[lilac stag]

burnt and useless cooked

[bronze hatch]

Yeah sin will show the higher hit so someone reading logs or details will likely tell you it hits harder, but sub gets to say “well ackshyually” about their one big hit that’s 3x what it looks like ig

[steel zinc]

The cloak was 15k or? Where did we gain the other 85k in Sims over night?

[bronze hatch]

Sub is the “well acshyually” spec

[vale pine]

wdym 85k?

i only re-run the sim^^

did not change anything else

[steel zinc]

Before tonight we were 4995 now it's 90k more

[vestal escarp]

Pacemaker came out on top

[vale pine]

^^

ye

[steel zinc]

I argue the delve trinket void thing is better

Like you can prestack it and force it to proc during ur opener

Yes Degen but that's our spec

[bronze hatch]

Just proc it while you’re stacking flag

Why all this effort

[steel zinc]

It's like 20k behind mythic pacemaker and it's just hc

That thing is bis

[runic trail]

Are we still on this

[steel zinc]

Or let's say progress bis

[vestal escarp]

Not farmabale

[fleet wharf]

just get lucky with your vaults bro

[steel zinc]

It's way easier s3 to get hc delves trinkets

[vestal escarp]

I wont enter delves.

Hm how so?

[steel zinc]

You can get more maps to get hc items

[vestal escarp]

Ah yes

[wheat edge]

also hero track items = champ track items

[vestal escarp]

Yeah id rather spam roll floodgate end chest

[steel zinc]

Also not doing delves the week the Patch Hits is griefing since the day m+ raid opens you get your first s3 vault

S3 in meaning tier

[vestal escarp]

The vault you open on 13th is s2 rewards

[steel zinc]

But I also do pvp to get the targeted versa items

[steel zinc]

No

It isn't its s3

[wheat edge]

the vault on 13th can be hero track delve / m0 stuff

the vault on the 6th is s2 useless gear

[steel zinc]

Great vault credit Begins

[keen dome]

Ye, so worth doing a full set of t8 delves

Roll the lottery for the free good item

[lilac stag]

The 5th is usless the 12th is your delve vault.

[hollow spear]

20k behind without prestacking shenanigans?

[steel zinc]

Yeah in st and in aoe it's ahead

[bronze hatch]

https://tenor.com/view/actually-bored-ackchyually-gif-14423655

[hollow spear]

wasn't there also a champion delve gear vendor?

[keen dome]

Via renown, iirc?

[steel zinc]

Yes but you gotta unlock that it's like week 2

[lilac stag]

delve gear is renown gated

[steel zinc]

I think not sure delvers journey

[keen dome]

Delvers journey yeah

I meant that, sorry

[hollow spear]

delvers journey r3 iirc

[keen dome]

delve renown. Branown

[lilac stag]

^ this

[steel zinc]

That's like week 2 latest

[tepid trellis]

rent free

[steel zinc]

That's tbh big imo

[runic trail]

I went for like an hour long walk, come back, he's still going on about it

[hollow spear]

watch Eleem loot it from the first map he gets

[lilac stag]

Trolls are easy to troll

[steel zinc]

The void fragment trinket is really good it gives your 30k mastery and atm your running on live between 20-25k

[hollow spear]

since we're also getting rid of hoc it gains some value

[steel zinc]

And you can cheese it prepull prekey etc

[bronze hatch]

So ez

[hollow spear]

not going to be big, but I suppose that's where DR might actually be somewhat noticeable

I'd be surprised if they didn't get rid of that prepull stuff before the patch

or with the patch

[steel zinc]

Even with Dr when procced it was 60% of my mastery

[steel zinc]

I don't think they will but will see. Either way strong trinket

[spiral sierra]

https://tenor.com/view/sahl-yippee-sussy-baka-sweat-deez-gif-12603968239533698654

[short radish]

he's just a bit sensitive about the topic

[bronze hatch]

https://tenor.com/view/grow-the-fuck-up-grow-up-serious-blunt-get-it-together-gif-9643433

[spiral sierra]

https://tenor.com/view/its-always-sunny-in-philadelphia-danny-devito-nope-gif-922152489210640750

[runic trail]

I was a bit sad because I had to go to the shops and I thought I missed the content.

The content is still ongoing

Life is good

[lilac stag]

is woke dead? Cartman told me woke is dead.

[short radish]

we will milk as much content as possible before the new tier

[astral axle]

https://www.wowhead.com/ptr-2/item=238386/void-touched-fragment this one aye?

[steel zinc]

Yes

[left ledge]

this is a certified rogue classic

[lilac stag]

You’re late.

we need energy drink to randomly come back s3

[spiral sierra]

where rogue?

[astral axle]

"Enhance." (bladerunner voice)

[left ledge]

posting the full thing is better

that way you can see literally every class

except rogue

but alas i was late

[sullen hare]

Rogue is in there just stealthed

[lilac stag]

Nah the meme was P to S

a for effort.

[left ledge]

its just funny that

EVERY CLASS

is in there

[spiral sierra]

S for effort from me ❤️

[left ledge]

except rogue

[short radish]

i prefer the full picture

[sullen hare]

S for shart

[runic trail]

The gloomblade buffs are coming, just hold tight brother.

[spiral sierra]

S for stealth.

[sullen hare]

17% buff to black powder coming

[lilac stag]

I expected it. Was teaching last night and saw the Wowhead post. Just started closing class tabs.

[runic trail]

I was right, we just weren't in any of the subsequent parts either

[lilac stag]

#subtlety message

[sullen hare]

Perfect. Just enough to put it at parity with eviscerate

[formal pollen]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

@vale pine can you turn of the Dark link until its current?

I didn’t check light and wouldn’t have known.

[vale pine]

i can just add it to the dark one

but well

[lilac stag]

wasn’t sure what was quicker

or less work.

[spiral sierra]

or just add a disclaimer.

[lilac stag]

No one will read that. Lol

[spiral sierra]

true

xD

[lilac stag]

design for the lowest common denominator or you end up with sub rogue play rate

[vale pine]

moment

done

[lilac stag]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hollow spear]

opening light mode always hurts me

[lilac stag]

next default it to s3 tab

[vale pine]

ill keep the s2 tab for now, but i can move them

[lilac stag]

no one is looking for s2 anything.

[vale pine]

maybe some want to compare numbers

[lilac stag]

Capture what

[short radish]

there are like 7 of us and we're all in the s3 waiting room

[lilac stag]

I mean leave the tab there

Just open up to s3

[vale pine]

done

[lilac stag]

We can laugh at all 3 specs

outlaw break 5 milly. MY UPTIME

[short radish]

guys outlaw is simming highest dps, is this going to be the go to spec for s3?

[vale pine]

lol

the go to spec is some warlock spec i guess

[lilac stag]

I’m waiting for the “do you have a backup toon if rogue tuning is bad?” from melee officer

[leaden prairie]

funny thing is outlaw is simming less than 5m

and elem

[short radish]

yeah but rogue is a mandatory (de)buff

[leaden prairie]

was simming higher than that

and got a 20% buff

[short radish]

that is needed for raid

[leaden prairie]

thoughts ?

[short radish]

i have no real valid thoughts other than "why the fuck did i pick rogue to main 15 years ago"

[leaden prairie]

skill issue ye

[short radish]

i hate younger me so fucking much

holy shit

stupid fucking edgelord dweeb

[lilac stag]

sensitive kangaroo paw coming in hard with required and rogue.

[short radish]

dont worry there's still 2 more weeks

[lilac stag]

[leaden prairie]

if rogue raid buff was required

[short radish]

im sure they're just saving all the rogue notes for the last week

[leaden prairie]

we would be stracking rogues

since it stacks

[short radish]

im kinda amazed that no one has bothered to do that

even once

[lilac stag]

Last week of the tier

[short radish]

i know the debuff doesnt affect everything

but it affects most things

and DR is kinda strong early

[lilac stag]

I’m just waiting to be told everything is fine. It doesn’t matter we’re 500k+ behind everything. Again.

[leaden prairie]

ye i mean

thats outlaw sim

so

[spiral sierra]

wait..... it stacks? i gotta tell my guild, we need to stack rogues now!

[runic trail]

They fixed the parry thing, they'll fix atrophic stacking as well

[lilac stag]

Good luck finding a second idiot to play rogue

[short radish]

stacks diminishingly

[vale pine]

the buffs actually put is slightly higher

[short radish]

wait what they fixed parry?

[vale pine]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[runic trail]

On PTR yeah

[short radish]

no shot they fixed it

oh for fucks sake

[spiral sierra]

we had 1, but he had to go get a timezone change 😦

[tepid trellis]

100k higher

[short radish]

just delete us

[leaden prairie]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/k9xEyn6GZHqdgRNQ78XXCj @vale pine

[runic trail]

We asked for bug fixes, that was on us

[short radish]

true

sorry about that

my fault

[runic trail]

We should have been more specific

[short radish]

HEAVEN FORBID THEY FIX A NEGATIVE DPS BUG

[vale pine]

oh, i can joink that

[leaden prairie]

all 3 rogue specs are looking quite good !

[tepid trellis]

i have 0 idea

[short radish]

good as in they are all equally garbage?

[tepid trellis]

what everything else is at

[short radish]

yeah same

i have 0 frame of refernece

[tepid trellis]

my job is to play rogue

i vibe

[leaden prairie]

you dont wanna know

[spiral sierra]

i like to sneak around.

[leaden prairie]

they all sim at 6/7

[runic trail]

My job is to play rogue because I can't play any other class

[short radish]

other than the warlock in my guild going "man warlock sim dps has gone down from 6.9m to 6.2m no ptr"

[leaden prairie]

5mil is lower of the mid pack

[lilac stag]

Shit wrong one

[tepid trellis]

its fine if we suck on release surely they insta buff us right

[sullen hare]

I proved that wasn't the case this season by switching to mistweaver and when they filled the healer gap ww. don't play ww. it's horrible piano bullshit

[tepid trellis]

and wont wait half a tier again

[lilac stag]

@tepid trellis

[runic trail]

Every time I try another class I flop horribly

[sullen hare]

https://tenor.com/view/copium-cat-gif-27161395

[runic trail]

And then come crawling back to rogue

[short radish]

dont worry im sure demo warlock will be nerf'd

[astral axle]

at least im not trying to convince myself that warrior is fun to play for another tier

[steel zinc]

comapred to other classes really?

[sullen hare]

looking good is one thing, performing well is another

we always have a sense of style 😎

[grand wyvern]

Purple = good got it

[vale pine]

yoinked, thanks zac

[steel zinc]

what about trickster?

[vale pine]

its behind by quite a bit

[steel zinc]

ohh ok

[short radish]

is the assi sims for s3 on your sheet "current" @vale pine ?

[lilac stag]

Based on whispyr’s last video of depression I’d assume yes.

[short radish]

LOOKS LIKE ITS A SUB ROGUE TIER

jk im sure assi will get some random flat aura 8% buff

[vale pine]

yes

[lilac stag]

he may have muttered those words

[vale pine]

sin always sims lower

[short radish]

holy shit he's acutally lost it

[lilac stag]

It’s the mythic boss video

maybe 4 days ago

[steel zinc]

why is that?

[vale pine]

probably because its easier to perform on it, patchwerk is not the be all end all

encounter design might favor certain aspects

e.g. execute on assassiantion

or funnel damage on assassination

or 2 min cooldowns

etc.

[lilac stag]

switching to caustic splatter in ST isn’t a crazy downgrade

[shadow snow]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

As soon as you splatter. Stonks 📈

splatter in execute? 🚀

unless dev deletes everything.

[wheat edge]

gaining all your aoe by swapping out like a 1,8% talent -> adds also give energy and funnel etc etc good raid spec

[short radish]

it's just a well designed spec (don't let whispyr read this)

[lilac stag]

I really think they just toss random shit at outlaw and sub to make it look like we haven’t been completely forgotten. otherwise wtf does assa get everything.

Their penance is dealing with DM

[wheat edge]

think most assa players would agree

like yeah the biggest problem (as with all rogue specs i guess) is the hero talents

[short radish]

multspec hero talents were a mistake

i get what they were trying to do

but they failed

and that's okay

sometimes you try your best and it isnt enough

[fleet wharf]

I mean other specs have cool hero talents, I dont think the concept itself is no good

[wheat edge]

fury warrior hero talents

[lilac stag]

it is no good when you don’t have time to actually complete them ALL

[fleet wharf]

yea that's actually a pretty fair point

[lilac stag]

if your concept can’t be completed it’s shit

[fleet wharf]

but smol indi game company

under new management

[lilac stag]

and that’s spec development for at lease 30% of the specs

rogue got the full short end on all hero talents

[short radish]

i mean deathstalker would be kinda cool if it wasnt attached to the mob like we're still playing with combo points on target

[lilac stag]

Our hero talents are close to ignore sub rogue post combo bfa levels of attention.

[lilac stag]

Marking it fine. Mark it with shiv and symbols

just fixed that problem.

[wheat edge]

best we can do is that those abilites consume a mark

[steel zinc]

Ofc just weird the sim

[lilac stag]

They take the friction to extremes. Use a 1-2 charge cd? Nope. Have fun with vanish.

[vale pine]

keep in mind gear levels are also diffrent and kill times

during wfr

and progression

the sim value is mostly a end of season value rather than start of

[wheat edge]

but also at the end of a season most bosses just get nuked so a 5 min sim is kinda weird there aswell

[lilac stag]

I actually hate how shit their design is when it comes to forcing toxic levels of gameplay friction.

zero iterations on whatever idea pops in their head.

Or if this is the iterated version, wtf did you come up with initially?

[slate marlin]

with feint dealing dmg

[steel zinc]

Actually a hc bis gear list would be nice to compare specs, because most of prog is done with that gear anyways

[vale pine]

idk

i think its best to work with what people in your guild got on gear

[leaden prairie]

trickster being behind fatebound in st is so bad btw

its like

if sin was forced to play fatebound

same shit

they lose all their aoe

[steel zinc]

Ok

[vale pine]

i mean fatebound keeps simming better for them

just saying

[leaden prairie]

ye barely tho

ok 4%

well

kinda my point anywya

playing fatebound is terrible

you should include trickster st for outalw imo fuu

[astral axle]

arent there weird overlaps & desyncs with fatebound sin and coldblood and stuff

[vale pine]

sure

was just trying to make a first profile

and it simmed quite a bit lower

[leaden prairie]

ye

it will

[vale pine]

btw. the talents i had end up within error range

[leaden prairie]

is this right

[vale pine]

so there is one free choice for you kinda

[leaden prairie]

or did you not sim removing sleight

[vale pine]

moment

[leaden prairie]

casue sleight should ahve 0 value with loaded

at least how we sim it

maybe it could have potential that we didnt sim

but i think our current apl would only reroll with loaded

[vale pine]

its slight interesstingly enough

[leaden prairie]

is it neutral ?

its weird

[vale pine]

ye

[leaden prairie]

sleight should ahev litteraly 0 impact

wuth our current apl

ah i guess you can still roll a 5

ye

bit cursed

[astral axle]

btw zac, is this welsh or something?

[leaden prairie]

ye

its a coded message

if you can decipher it

there is a secret treasure

idk good luck !

[astral axle]

Buried Treasure!

[vale pine]

let me double check

[leaden prairie]

pirate treasure ye

!

[vale pine]

0.2%

still fairly low diffrence

[leaden prairie]

hmge

[vale pine]

means heavy hitter is also worth about nothing

if the other one is 0%, then hh is 0.2%

both seem extremely weak going from that

[swift tinsel]

sounds like rogue talents alright

[vale pine]

maybe its not 0 baseline

🤷‍♀️

[keen dome]

You know what's better than logging off and going outside? not logging off and being a sub rogue

Sub rogue -> outside

[distant bison]

they fixed rotten finally

was that recent?

[swift tinsel]

on ptr

weekish ago

[distant bison]

yeah im on ptr finally a fix

[vale pine]

yes on ptr

[hazy breach]

Prioritizing the least impactful bugs

[steel zinc]

100% our tier wont work they should just fix the tooltip imo

like who cares

[hazy breach]

They couldnt even properly fix the shadow damage from lingering when they tried, so now its more bugged than it was before

[steel zinc]

but no they will try to fix it and brkea more

[hazy breach]

But it doesnt work on items atleast

[swift tinsel]

surprised they didn't destroy raid servers by removing parry bug

[steel zinc]

Imo that is actually a really good raid buff

[swift tinsel]

that's why it had to go

[steel zinc]

idk how much % it was probably depending on the raid comp but that should be our raid buff baseline

[swift tinsel]

[keen dome]

It had to go 'cos they're planning on giving it to us as a raid buff properly

or, more likely, to the third DH spec because they hate me

[fallow nimbus]

The group parry is gone?

[lilac stag]

They specifically hate you.

[keen dome]

It's because I'm load bearing

[runic trail]

The plan is to just not tell anyone

This is this channel's little secret

[keen dome]

I agree

[graceful crown]

sub gameplay doesnt need many ruptures outside of cd, right? i tried on ptr and seems more funny than s2

with the new tier

[swift tinsel]

wym

[graceful crown]

more cdr on rotations and a couple of coups

till 30-35s of cds

[thorny rivet]

붨罷

[graceful crown]

in s2 u usually needed to use ruptures to maintain tier set buffs sometimes

[swift tinsel]

ah yeah don't need to worry about that anymore

[graceful crown]

thats nice

[swift tinsel]

you'll hold coup though and farm sht stacks with backstab going into non-opener flags

[graceful crown]

ummm

[dapper gyro]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[left ledge]

Surely we don’t get nerfed unnecessarily

Blizz wouldn’t do that to sub rogue right

[vale pine]

can do bugfixes

^^

[astral axle]

our bugs are fixed, but the monkey's paw curls and new bugs are introduced along with the fixes along with a 15% nerf

[nova cairn]

Don’t see sub getting nerfed

Its state is pretty healthy it seems

Your profile will just favour the bosses pretty well

With the damage amps

[dry plank]

Why would you expect sub nerf?

[steel zinc]

@vale pine Did they buff this trinket? Stealth buff.

[astral axle]

not expecting sub nerfs, im memeing

[steel zinc]

we are middle of the pack

[astral axle]

but tbf i was kinda surprised last tier when they last-minute nerfed

[runic trail]

Where's the buff? It just looks like the ilvl increased

Unless there's a joke I'm missing

[steel zinc]

no the scaling from the dungeons is weird

early on lower itemlevel gives more mastery then higher

[nova cairn]

What dungeon is that

Eco?

[steel zinc]

Yes

The scaling is weird or on the vendor they have the old one

look at the mastery scaling

per itemlevel

[nova cairn]

Maybe just bad tooltip in the dungeon journal

[steel zinc]

idk maybe I am cooked would be nothing new just seems off to me

[nova cairn]

They stealth nerfed that other trinket right

The channel one

[astral axle]

idol? yeah i believe so

[nova cairn]

It’s not impossible

[warm marlin]

looks just as awful as before

[steel zinc]

I think they are scared to buff it

[warm marlin]

for reference, a 684 house of cards give 9521 mastery on average

increased up to 3 times depending on how many times you use it

for 39 extra ilvl you get 60 extra mastery without the stack effect

[hazy breach]

And house of cards is under budget until youve capped it out

[warm marlin]

ye hoc isnt even a great trinket

and it gives more mastery with 1 single stack than lily

[hazy breach]

And ideally since we are heavy bursting we want something with more percentage of its power tied to the active, generally trinkets with passive agi have 70/30 in favour of passive whereas ones with secondaries (or something else) as passive are often the other way around with 30/70

[north schooner]

what is weird? you are showing the trinket at 3 different ilvls

[steel zinc]

no the scaling is weird

[north schooner]

what is weird about the scaling though?

[jade urchin]

mastery barely goes up with huge ilvl jumps

[alpine wraith]

as eleem said trinket is kinda bad for us because we want bursty trinks

lilly has a lot of budged in static agi

same as HoC kinda

reason why we used transmitter

for so long

[steel zinc]

@vale pine you mind adding the ns sim?

[left ledge]

Fated gonna go crazy

[slate marlin]

theres no fated

[left ledge]

Awakened gonna go crazy

[vale pine]

Can do later/tomorrow . NS?

[steel zinc]

deathstalker

sorry

still nightstalker mode

[north schooner]

I see, but that's not really unique to that trinket. It's exactly the same scaling as other trinkets with similar main stat budget. And the lily hasn't seen any changes. The only change was a pvp coefficient change many patches ago.

[jade urchin]

note the durations of the other on uses tho, ignoring the annoying cast time of puzzle box

[north schooner]

they are all 10s per 60s of cd

they are balanced around uptime not pure duration

[jade urchin]

yeah mb forgot skardyns was 2min

[mystic tusk]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lucid jackal]

whos excited for sub rogue

[swift tinsel]

looking forward to playing it in raid

[hollow snow]

rip

the trinkets dont excite me but double coup feels nice

[swift tinsel]

ye trinket situation isn't ideal

[young mural]

hey

im back

almost got sucked into the mage pipeline

but anyways

[swift tinsel]

he says while sporting the MAGE tag

[young mural]

hey

stop it

Im really excited for the double coup

double the CDR

double the damage

double the flawless form stacks

[swift tinsel]

just need them to fix the bugs and its pretty nice

[young mural]

rip

just read the pins

as always a bug with shadowed finishers

[hazy breach]

Yes chef!

[random mason]

Trinkets is again just the 1.5min raid trinket?

[swift tinsel]

netherprism

potentially forge (the 2min trinket)

[young mural]

so as long as the current tuning is mantained, we're still playing trickster on AOE and ST situations?

[swift tinsel]

yep

DS sucks

in all content

as is intended

[young mural]

nice, i really enjoy trickster

[swift tinsel]

it is the superior tree in every way

[hazy breach]

For the most part well just be playing Netherprism all the time

[swift tinsel]

ye

[hazy breach]

Its only for hc/later on in the tier when bosses get shorter

[young mural]

shaping up to be a pretty fun season for us submissive rogues

[hazy breach]

That we might want forge

[young mural]

oh

[lucid jackal]

I think rogue is very good htis tier

Like deceptively good

[swift tinsel]

I'm sub-pilled unless they do something heinous in the next two weeks

[young mural]

me too

[young mural]

happy moment

[shell willow]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[shell willow]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[steel zinc]

so double rogue?

like ww this tier?

[swift tinsel]

having a few passive trinkets within 0.0-0.4% of each other isn't too bad too, probably sitting on sigil for a lil pseudo-EoN

[young mural]

i mean if they dont touch balancing, we'll see at LEAST 1 sub rogue during prog

[shell willow]

Damn sin that down bad?

[hazy breach]

Yep unless sub is tuned absolutely horrendously low its gonna be good with all the amps this tier

[lucid jackal]

Dont think so

But like

U aren't embarassed to play rogue

Theres been tiers like that

Rogue feels very solid tho

It might be like vault where U dont need double rogue, but double rogue is playable and pretty good

[graceful crown]

sadly when meta comes, pugs wont get subtleties i think in high tier keys

[lucid jackal]

What keys do you do Mirannda

[graceful crown]

i did 18 max 2 months ago

why?

i had it difficult to go in

as outlaw

[lucid jackal]

Just wondering

Yeah meta is always annoying af

[graceful crown]

waiting hours to have 1 try

[lucid jackal]

Yeah

[graceful crown]

i can use my keys but...

i dont know whats slower

[lucid jackal]

lol fr

[graceful crown]

its my fav spec but im thinking to try harder as a meta spec this season

i still dont know what to do

[young mural]

Yhea rogue is always rough on keys

has some cool group utility but very situational

and arguably other classes can do it better so

we need a rogue lust and we're good to go

[hazy breach]

Yep rogue needs some sauce to be desireable for keys, very high damage obviously works but it still feels like youre not contributing much

Stop giving every single mob truesight

[graceful crown]

currently im practicing fire mage at PTR and even if i dont like casters, feels like an outlaw but "better?" and have much more utility

[hazy breach]

But idk there might be some good shroud skips next season

[graceful crown]

but i still love outlaw

i hate this situation haha

[swift tinsel]

I'm torn on what I wanna play in keys

havoc is super fun, same with enh

[graceful crown]

yeah havoc seems very fun

[swift tinsel]

I really wish rogue hit better for me in m+

in raid I fucking love sub, most fun spec in the game

just doesn't translate to keys and I don't like sin/outlaw

[alpine wraith]

yea they have been nerfing buffs in m+ etc

but rogue just does not have what it takes

[graceful crown]

i prefer sustained dmg and fast apm rotations, but i think at this tier sub improved its rotations could be fun without rupturing out of cds

[alpine wraith]

outlaw is quite good but has same problem as sub

we just dont do anything but dmg

[graceful crown]

yeah, its the same

[swift tinsel]

shaman decurse is gonna get some mileage too next season

plus you have pct, purge, cap/lasso

[graceful crown]

there wont be more changes till day 13 right?

or can we

[swift tinsel]

can get tuning stuff any day pretty much

but I highly doubt any meaningful changes come besides adjusting the knobs

[graceful crown]

yeah i guess so too

[young mural]

based on changes to sin and sub (only specs i know about) im feeling like this might be a sub raid tier

feeling like its performance on ST/cleave is going to be better

but its a really trashy guess-timate

[shell willow]

I hope so

[lucid jackal]

thats because it is

[young mural]

true

just got a biased view on it since the LOU fights are all weird with a bunch of adds

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[chrome palm]

not having lust, brez, any dispell, off-healing, all while being melee makes it a tough sell for most groups

it really feels like you need a shaman in your group (which has pretty much all of these things) to carry the lack of utility you bring as rogue

and often the utility that rogue does have like sap, cloak, blind, kidney, shiv, are just flat out like the worst versions of what they do in the game

[hazy breach]

The permatricks from trickster is something atleast, negating most aggro issues for your other dpsers

[chrome palm]

cloak is good ofc i mean but like ams seems stronger

perma is super neat for sure

but like any time a rogue can do something it usually seems like a better idea to have someone else do it for them instead

like why have the rogue kidney anything when it costs energy and combo points, when plenty of other classes have instant stuns like it

and like sap is only out of combat, in melee range, in stealth, making it a lot harder to use than imprison

[hexed sluice]

Does the parry count, I know my melee in raid liked that about me refusing to play other specs

[tribal blade]

sap is really annoying to use because half the time the mobs you want to sap have truesight

[chrome palm]

yep

[tribal blade]

or are near truesight

[hazy breach]

It has been fixed, but also were mostly talking about keys

Where mobs and bosses generally cant parry

[hexed sluice]

Wait

Oh so thats just baseline now at all times

[hazy breach]

In keys yes

In raid no

[swift tinsel]

just remove it and armor altogether in pve

plz god

[hazy breach]

In keys things havent been able to parry for a long time

[tribal blade]

for some reason raid bosse still need to parry 🙂

[hazy breach]

The raid-wide parry removal from trickster has been fixed on ptr

[chrome palm]

its over

[hexed sluice]

Imma just conviently not tell my raid that

and gaslight them when they get parried

spice up raid chatter

[tribal blade]

"must have been parried during the 3 seconds fazed fell off"

[chrome palm]

technically it was only ever a 90% parry removal

[swift tinsel]

we have infinity melee so its gonna be funny to see everyone else lose out bc of it lol

if they don't add every ability to the parry blacklist first

which, as soon as they started doing that parry should go for everyone

[chrome palm]

losing parry raid buff is a utility nerf but a damage buff if you think about it

[swift tinsel]

why are colossus smash and kingsbane special

[tribal blade]

LOL because it's nerfing the other melee

[hazy breach]

Its ironic that sub could make others not have to stand behind, yet we ourself still have to stand behind

[swift tinsel]

ye that was so irksome

[tribal blade]

member locken FW uptime

i member

[swift tinsel]

soon we get fractallus too

[tribal blade]

pressing storm praying for a crit

[chrome palm]

shouldve held cb for storm bud

[tribal blade]

MMMMM good point

[chrome palm]

think of the uptime

[tribal blade]

or just gear 40% crit

easy game

[chrome palm]

just leave the group and get slightly behind the boss

[tribal blade]

rock that 50% mastery

[chrome palm]

and scare the shit out of your raid

[tribal blade]

hahaha

it's always funny when someone is out of position on locken

and the pings start happening

and people freaking out in disc

[chrome palm]

just do what ryldd does

cloak and start murdering

[tribal blade]

haha

[chrome palm]

what a criminal

[tribal blade]

or press step

i try to save cloak for the overlap with beams and magnet anyways

[warm marlin]

what the helly

it was an accident man

too fast with sprint! slipped into the knock up thing

[tribal blade]

rogue does run at mach 10 with sprint up

[graceful crown]

bof trying sub now in ptr, rotation is much more fluid

[shell willow]

Has the rotation changed for live?

[graceful crown]

than s2

nope

[shell willow]

Not sitting on coups for dance window might be the only difference

[graceful crown]

huge difference i must say, atleast my sensation

double coup and procs much more

[shell willow]

Might help our sustain outside of burst

[graceful crown]

resulting in more cdr and faster rotations till 30-35s before cds

yep

[shell willow]

Okay they might have to carry that tier set interaction after s3

[graceful crown]

hope so

[hazy breach]

I mean it doesnt matter much

[graceful crown]

its the feeling of everything

even if its not in much more dmg

[shell willow]

True if numbers dont support it doesnt mean anything

[graceful crown]

yeah well, outside of cds, its just for fun

haha

[hazy breach]

Im saying its not much more cdr

[graceful crown]

the interaction we had with s2 tier set, losing charges and rng based

was disgusting for me

[swift tinsel]

wait til you experience the rng of the 2pc

[graceful crown]

but now i had fun

[hazy breach]

This new set is MASSIVELY more rng than the previous one

The previous one had very little rng

[graceful crown]

Maybe i had bad luck but i sometimes i could get 6-8 charges in a full cd rotation

or 2

[swift tinsel]

getting a double proc after a 2nd coup is gonna make not getting it feel ultrabad lol

but that's the rng life

[hazy breach]

And ye the sim gets roughly 0.5 extra dance casts of in a 5 minute sim compared to live, 13.8 instead of 13.3

[graceful crown]

i just tried 15 mins in ptr with sub and felt better, idk haha

[hazy breach]

So its not negligible, but its not particularly impactful either

[graceful crown]

Maybe i focused too much in the track charges of s2 tier

and thats why i hadnt fun

[hazy breach]

Ye there was no reason to track it

[shell willow]

The 4pc coup proc is free correct? Don't need to build cps up to send it again?

[alpine wraith]

you need to build cp

[shell willow]

Oh that sucks

[short radish]

I track it because I hate myself and enjoy being disappointed

[shell willow]

Lol

[hazy breach]

Even with that its still an insanely strong tierset

I was (and still am) expecting it to be nerfed and the baseline spec buffed to compensate, but seeing as it hasnt happened yet who knows

[swift tinsel]

SoonTM

[bleak night]

best i can do is nerfed week 2 with no compensation

https://tenor.com/view/maksas-the-cat-deal-its-a-deal-gif-20624996

[shell willow]

I really like how it streamlines the rotation.

[shell willow]

Lol get rid of that bad Jojo Ricky Bobby

[hazy breach]

In what way does it streamline the rotation if we play the exact same

[swift tinsel]

it gets more degen than before lol

with the non-ub builders

[shell willow]

For me personally noto having to sit on coups and bping instead.

[hazy breach]

We didnt do that before

That was early s1 tech

[shell willow]

Oh interesting

[hazy breach]

If you have coup up and flag is coming up in like 10-15 you just dont finish

To build sht stacks

And that remains the same for s3

[shell willow]

Oh okay in that case lol nothing changes

[hazy breach]

During blades you want to storm inbetween your coups

To not waste a proc of unseen blades

[shell willow]

Yeah for dance macabre

[hazy breach]

Since you cant stack for your next coup while the 4p buff is active

Not for macabre no

[shell willow]

No

Oh shit okay

[fallow nimbus]

Just make everything proc ub and also give us 1 or 2 more stacks for coup

But they probably need something for midnight and that's why we see no qol changes for our hero trees, who knows

[chrome palm]

Should also make non disorienting chance to strike with unseen cap at 2

And remove fazed entirely

[swift tinsel]

they gotta keep the clean sheet of No Changes the Entire Xpac going for hero trees

minus the plague damage buff to DS forever ago

[young mural]

how so

[swift tinsel]

35% chance for coup to hit twice

can lead to some shit

[young mural]

what

am I dumb?

did they change this? or am i stupid

this seems like pretty bad RNG

[plush roost]

They did change it

Its not 30% refresh

Its now 35% double proc

So your cds can have 4 coups or 8

Depending on rng

Very cool

When you do proc you are jesus tho freal

The random priests sometimes PI me and i have to tell them haste yucky stat

Just cause the st damage can go absolutely crazy

[alpine wraith]

yea nothing like proccing lots of unseens in a random dance and also proc authority

of radiance

[sullen hare]

Radiance is what? Mastery?

[plush roost]

Agility

[sullen hare]

Ah, we're going back to dragonflight stat proc gambling how exciting

[warm marlin]

I mean radiance is such a small amount at this point

With prism you have like 130-140k primary in cds and 2x radiance proc I think is 4400 something

[sullen hare]

Ah well if depths is still about the same I'll just go with whatever tbh. I haven't particularly cared about enchants in a while because they haven't been exciting it's just some shit to buy

[chrome palm]

The classic “+ .2% in pure ST, - .6% if another nameplate shows up for 5 seconds”

[warm marlin]

Just proc your 30k mastery delve trinket and your delve belt and your casino tier set all in your cd window and you’ll pop off

[fleet wharf]

how about you just crit all your finishers in your cd window?

[warm marlin]

True true that too

[barren tree]

been scrolling through this channel, saw plenty of ppl saying sub aoe is bad, why is that? havent played sub in a while

[sullen hare]

How long do you have and how many perspectives do you wanna hear?

[alpine wraith]

sub aoe is decent just other specs have crazy numbers

we are like mid to high

[sullen hare]

I'll boil it down from my perspective, I guess. The current state of sub rogue comes partly from the rework we got midway through dragonflight, the last expansion

At the time we were really really spammy. You basically didn't even bother looking at your energy bar because whether it was single target or aoe you just kinda always had energy for everything all the time

One of the consequences of that rework was that they increased both the cost of our generators and spenders so that made energy economy a lot tighter. So where other classes just press an air ability we have to be a little more conservative about it and while we are in the same pen as a lot of classes with capped aoe we have to be a little more clinical and while long timers who've played the spec through good and bad are dealing with it anyone who's taken a vacation and came back or is picking it up for the first time really struggle with that

So it's not only a little difficult and obtuse, it's also just tuned to end up around where most specs are in aoe so if you don't pull it off just right you end up in third, which by Ricky Bobby's rules is worse than last and that just doesn't feel good

Every time we joke about buffing black powder and then they go and do it it just kinda sucks

Rogue Dev hasn't even posted in here since last year so most of that is just yelling into the void, so excuse me for being verbose

[tribal blade]

@chrome palm you know when you have a key where you completely shit the bed for whatever reason

i just had one of those

i wanna die

[sullen hare]

Hell yeah

[tribal blade]

i want to put myself in a vat of acid

dunk my head underneath

[sullen hare]

It's the good sizzle

[tribal blade]

until my face is boiled off

and i'm nothing but bone

[young mural]

this is fucking crazy

[chrome palm]

that means time to lay down lmao

[tribal blade]

haha true i woke up this morning feeling off

[next bone]

I’m new at sub, before I saw some rogues biggest damage was rupture I think, in details M+ , don’t know which spec, so we just spread rupture to 2 adds at a time? Or other rogue specs spread Rupture in AoE more efficiently?

[lucid jackal]

Spread rupture between Cd's and when tanks are gathering

[plush roost]

Remember s2 df darkbrew ruptures

Ah those were the days

[tribal blade]

even S3 you could play DB too

those were beefy ruptures

[next bone]

I just saw assa has garrote and rupture spread automstocally with another skill, that was my confusion lol, thanks for the tips

[alpine wraith]

ahaha

[next bone]

What’s that spell lol

[tribal blade]

it's the S3 tier set

empowering flame is from tindral iirc

[sullen hare]

Good ol shadow rupture

Pull that slots handle

[crisp karma]

anyone have a ptr sub spreadsheet for talents etc?

[shadow snow]

!fuu

[sullen hare]

#subtlety message

[chrome palm]

That is an interesting build

Wonder what you swap for tfd

[tribal blade]

ah yeah this is the PE+finality build people been talking about

i think the only way to get TFD would be to drop 1 point in finality

[lapis hatch]

Least fav thing about sub is being energy starved when I need feint

[chrome palm]

Do you ever really need to feint in dance

Maybe a few one shots but I think we are quite sturdy in dance

[sullen hare]

It's nice that it's off gcd now but we've kinda permanently pivoted to asking the question "with what energy?"

[alpine wraith]

that build is for raid kinda

where PE matters more

[proven plover]

I remember my friend who never played rogue telling me to use symbols to gen energy for feint

[alpine wraith]

for m+ you just run rotten

[sullen hare]

Tell em to siphon gasoline outta the car to start the next campfire

[proven plover]

Was a historic moment for me

[lucid jackal]

U have infinite energy in dance

I press it so extra

[chrome palm]

In keys it’s pretty common to run out of energy in dance outside of blades

Mainly from feinting and or lack of sht

Feint + double strike is nasty

[proven plover]

Ye cuz tfd dance is too long for our energy gen atm which is dumb and annoying

[hollow spear]

Feint really got much better without the gcd, but the energy cost is tough

[next bone]

does it matter if my offhand isnt a dagger?

[chrome palm]

yes its really awful white dagger from stormwind is better in offhand

ok maybe not but its not good get a dagger

[brisk onyx]

You will get less cp and energy cuz less shadow tech

So don’t do that

[next bone]

If i get a better weapon than a dagger, the sims account for the CP and energy loss in DPS? Like I get a Mythic fist and a hero dagger

[chrome palm]

yeah but hero dagger will always be better no question

offhand is like your worst slot as sub

[brisk onyx]

u get very little dps increase from offhand

And loss very much by using fist

[next bone]

thanks!

[lilac stag]

!oh

[keen dome]

oh no

!oh

[lilac stag]

hmm. Did the bit break…

[keen dome]

I guess moroes died, rip

[lilac stag]

@vale pine whenever you wake up send out search and rescue for Moroes

[dry plank]

I tried bois it’s not responding

[keen dome]

Shadowtechniques (the thing that gives us bonus energy and combies from auto-attacks) isn't equalized so it'll proc far, far less on a slower OH (So anything but a dagger). which is a pretty considerable loss versus just using a grey dagger.

To explain why we only ever want a dagger OH

[vale pine]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[keen dome]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[keen dome]

He lives!

[astral halo]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[rain stratus]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[upper narwhal]

This is definitely not what I expected the m+ build to look like

[short radish]

noooo tornado is back

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/tornado-world-meteorological-day-strong-tornado-powerful-tornado-travelling-tornado-gif-3751364916079031261

[tribal blade]

nah fuck nado, take VT instead 🙂

[sullen hare]

is everything really so bad that tornado is back in business?

[vale pine]

well

we play tfd in single target

🙂

[sullen hare]

🙂

[vale pine]

and the m+ talent will change due to finality bug implementation

[sullen hare]

point taken

[vale pine]

so we will see