subtlety

[sinful zephyr]

Yes

[alpine wraith]

although i would prefer prism because of control

[hazy breach]

sadness or lily/stone idol

[alpine wraith]

ah then lilly and pacemaker or idol if it does not get beastified too mucg

i actually wonder if you can still krangle the ticking sac

[warm marlin]

pacemaker also gets real good if you pretend to be 2mins

[sinful zephyr]

Ok but im Sure they will tune soon

[alpine wraith]

and it is still good enough

i remember that shit being 8% of my dmg

if i tab targetted

[hazy breach]

Ye but thats only good if the fight is specifically those lengths

Otherwise you just pretend the trinket has a 3 min cd

[alpine wraith]

i tried to do some funny things with forge

and triple dance

[hazy breach]

But i would be surprised if they dont end up buffing prism

[alpine wraith]

so it covers 2 dances with flag and using blades a bit later

2 big sec techs

but idk

hard to say

prism seems a cool trink but weird way to work

i feel the stacks are too limited

even spymaster had like a 6+ min stack time or was it 4

[hazy breach]

4

[alpine wraith]

and coral was uncapped

[hazy breach]

So you could use your 2 min on pull, cd 2 min into the fight and then go big boom at 4 mins with spymaster

You cant do any of that with this one because it caps at 2:30

[alpine wraith]

wonder if last fight will be more than 10 mins

[steel zinc]

if it caps at 2:30 worth using at 90 sec and then just keep doing 90 sec cycle

and on pull its just useless kinda

also the new house of cards from the new dungeon is omega bad

[uncut grove]

how's sub on ptr guys

is tierset broken as usual on ptr?

[lilac stag]

Pins

it’s sub.

Like it. Play it.

[hollow spear]

Unfortunately, the standard sim is 5 min. I just hope we don't get the short end of the stick with prism being meh and getting out competed by 2min specs on forge

[swift tinsel]

we had to deal with 2min specs drooling over 1.5min trinket so its their turn

[tender frost]

Surely they just buff the 1.5m dungeon trinket

Doesn’t it give less mastery than hoc rn

[swift tinsel]

its like 9 point something rn when maxed

thousand

[slate marlin]

but they dont have to delay cds or lose trinket in cds

[swift tinsel]

was more a comment on loot competition for trinkets that don't match your cd

[slate marlin]

ah makes sense

[tender frost]

Just tell your raid group you’re playing sin until it’s in your bags

Gg

[swift tinsel]

swap specs before the timer ends ez

key tech making its way into raid again

[rich stump]

got invited to a 13 for the leader to ask me for 2k gold, I said no and got kicked

wtf is happening to m+

must be sub rogue syndrome

[warm marlin]

2k gold tip is crazy work

[steel jolt]

you should report them

[rich stump]

man I even had the gold to give him but I suspected I would give him and get kicked, what guy doin 13s doesn't have 2k gold for "flask and repair"

[steel jolt]

you should definitely never support that behavior because by doing that you're validating them and they will keep doing it

[north schooner]

was the leader a tank?

[rich stump]

nah ret paladin

[north schooner]

[hollow spear]

Sounds like something a ret paladin would do

When they're not busy padding on shitter mobs they extort other players

[vale pine]

I love how my launcher randomly decided it needs another update, after updating ptr and cata classic

[hollow spear]

It's adding shadowed finishers to the 4p

[vale pine]

on retail, i doubt it ^^

[north schooner]

you never know with blizzard, could've been another bad merge

[left ledge]

They’re hotfixing flurry blades

[graceful osprey]

Blizzard sneaking in a hotfix nerf for sub

[north schooner]

sectec now cleaves 3 targets

[floral lily]

Hello guys for s3 rogue ass or sub because I start rogue and I want main this for s3

[sacred yarrow]

honestly man, idk as well. whats your flavour of ninja, naruto or sasuke?

[fluid moth]

Which do you enjoy more?

You can also play both, the gear is very similar

[bright meteor]

Samurai Jack

[sacred yarrow]

Outlaw lol

[hollow spear]

You could also be a goofy pirate

[sacred yarrow]

Davy jones goofy or jack sparrow goofy?

[oblique burrow]

Just lots of goof

[bright meteor]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-spongebob-squarepants-spongebob-season-6-truth-or-square-spongebob-truth-or-square-gif-14618301320258983224

spongebob pirate?

[oblique burrow]

Spongebob transmog when ?

[hollow spear]

Ethereal spongebob

[swift tinsel]

Are we talkin pre or post time skip

Bc if I can use a Sexy Harem Jutsu…

[haughty mural]

Kyveza

[brittle plinth]

Reverse sexy harem

https://tenor.com/view/hmm-suspect-gif-22611582

[swift tinsel]

If it works on a literal god

[brittle plinth]

ppl hated that moment but I loved it

it was the most naruto that entire arc got

[swift tinsel]

Dude it was so on brand I love it too

[brittle plinth]

want to spoil Naruto for ppl?

https://tenor.com/view/alien-guy-thats-crazy-woozy-crazy-scientist-gif-8609893263374809391

no other context

let em discover

[swift tinsel]

Literally stood up when he sent it lmao

Could not believe

[brittle plinth]

I need to scroll through the discussions since yesterday in this sub to understand how amped I should be for that 150% value change, something you called could happen.

[swift tinsel]

If he hit her with One Thousand Years of Death I would have died myself

[brittle plinth]

THAT would of been something

considering the # of asspulls during that last bit, an asspush would of been welcome

[swift tinsel]

Lol for real

Also Kakashi vs Obito is one of if not the best anime fight

[uneven scarab]

man

Goosebumps the whole time!

Naruto was my childhood man

Naruto vs pain 💯

[brittle plinth]

It wasn't bad

I dont watch anime so I dont know how it was animated, but the panels were pretty great

[fallow nimbus]

https://tenor.com/view/shinra-tensei-gif-19640651

[slate marlin]

my wet dream is shadowed finishers spawn clones like kyveza

like whwnevrr your finishers crit or whatever

[pliant topaz]

im down, let me go to a 15 target pull, summon 15 clones per second, crash the entire server cuz for sure servers can handle that

tbt when going to a target dummy as sin and singular focus + caustinc was crashing the entire server

[haughty mural]

as it should be

[slate marlin]

idc, the flavour of using bp on a big pull and spawning 10 purple clones

i want that

it can handle shadow apparitions from sp

[dawn night]

Do talents change from current patch to 11.2 with new tiersets? can't find any information that says otherwise

[alpine wraith]

dont let this man know what happened when 4 hunters pressed stampede then bl

instance server had to LOCK IN

[half comet]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[chrome palm]

ok guys

slow down on testing

sandbag a touch ok

rogue isnt doing tank damage like i was told??

[alpine wraith]

it around middle of the pack

but some fights might favour us

[bleak night]

do well on early fights and get nerfed for the actual hard fights

sounds based

[pliant topaz]

you kinda had that

in s3 tier

it would summon a sectech clone

[slate marlin]

i swapped to rogue on df s4

was frost dk before that

and never had enough time to actualy comit to an expansion, this is the first expansion im able to

and shadowlands, but guild had a meltdown and i quit bc i was burnout (very bad guild)

[pliant topaz]

tier was the same in s4 df for sub rogue

but yea

every time tier procc'd

u would get a sectech clone come out

[slate marlin]

well

i want that back then

but a lot more clones

a bazillion clones

[pliant topaz]

that tier was so fun! I loved that iteration of sub with dust

having so many different timers made the spec feel so special and cool

made it different than the other 2 specs, and the tier was both fun, and strong, but also had visuals to it!

rupture gambling was so fun too @alpine wraith remember?

[slate marlin]

clones are so fun

wished i played sub back then, but outlaw was so fun i only played that

[alpine wraith]

every time i was winning we wiped

SO MUCH FUN

when shadow rupture was 11% of my dmg

[pliant topaz]

I fucking miss rupture gambling on smolderon

my god

what a dopamine rush

[alpine wraith]

tbh i hated that set and also the gambling one on s3 sl

but that is just me

because i never highroll

im made that way

[plush roost]

I can't wait for tight damage amps next season to be decided on how many tier procs we get next season

[lilac stag]

Both were shit

[plush roost]

The virgin 4 coup cd window vs the gigachad 8 coups

[swift tinsel]

Just get god rolls ez

[plush roost]

Its such a rush tho

Sec tec strike coup storm coup strike evis strike coup storm coup strike sec tec backstab coup storm coup strike...

[alpine wraith]

you forget every unseen hits for 2mil+ on cds

[plush roost]

Brrrrrrr

[alpine wraith]

because our trinkets are agi now

so they boost everything

[plush roost]

Yeeah boi

[alpine wraith]

better for me when i have 200% mastery

[plush roost]

Lmfao whats your mastery on live rn?

Like 140%?

[lilac stag]

You can put a shuriken toss in there to mix it up.

[alpine wraith]

think 120% or so

let me check actually

unbuffed

i will miss circe

so that will make it go down but new rights make it go back up again

[rich stump]

Is it weird to say that sub is the best spec for m+?
Great survability since we stack vers, 10% Dr in dance and if you get enough leech you only die from one shots during blades and dance in aoe
Can use kidney at will outside dance since it matters little
100% Speed with 3 min shroud is amazing
Short burst windows are better than sustained damage

It does do less overall damage cuz of a few bugs yea

The only thing I can think of is assass with silence garrote which is rarely taken

[warm marlin]

sub is the worst of the 3 rn, unless you mean as a more general take

[rich stump]

yea not purely dps wise

but it's like 3-5% behind no?

[warm marlin]

i would say more than that personally

assas has strong funnel, outlaw is tankier

[north schooner]

it's more than that in m+. Sub's aoe is in a very weird state rn

[warm marlin]

speed shroud is good though

[slate marlin]

with bugfixes should be better

would like not having to pool dances for flag windows but its a minor thing since i love how the spec plays anyways

maybe double shadow dance cdr while in sb or whatever

[pliant topaz]

a lot of this is not entirely true.

1. yes sub is really tanky due to vers stacking, and is a rogue.
2. 10% dr in dance is really not a real thing. you are never using dance as a defensive. its just a w/e bonus 99% of the times
3. enough leech again is kind of a meme, you can look at the healing you get from leech/some of your talents and you realize you have nowhere near enough sustain to deal with rot by outhealing it.
4. you can kidney, but it always comes at the cost of damage + energy. most other specs only spend 1 global for a cc. sub spends minimum 2 (build the cp, spend the cp on kidney, rebuild).
5. 100% shroud speed is "nice" but very niche, and is useless in outdoor dungeons
6. burst depends on comp/dungeon/ etc. but reality is that all that matters is damage. if you do 10% less damage than others, youre worthless regarding everything else you do.
   reality is sub is not the best at anything, but is among the worst at many things.

[bleak night]

ok but you're the best at having glowing purple hands

[honest basin]

Real. But yeah other than having glowing purple hands it is... There for sure. I love sub don't get me wrong but... I don't love it bc it's strong lmao

[warm marlin]

rogue has exactly 2 strong niches for keys: damage, and oneshot avoidance

sub is just a lot worse at the damage part rn

[alpine wraith]

actually if you have enough leech it is noticeable in dance

but know one funny thing

[pliant topaz]

i mean thats just now how damage/healing pattern works in wow though

most healers kinda just plan cds for damage events, top you + your defensives

like your 2% leech isnt realistically doing anything

youre getting overhealed to shit (atleast u did when i played)

we always wiped because things were going off not healer issues

[bleak night]

it probably helps a bit on candle king i'd guess

just bc constant big damage

but you still arent being brought bc of that

[warm marlin]

funny enough candle king is actually a rare boss where avoidance is mega mega op

[alpine wraith]

yea but once upon a time i had 32% leech

then they nerfed it 4 times

[warm marlin]

because all his damage is considered aoe

[bleak night]

i miss op leech

[alpine wraith]

and now i have almost 10% with liek 3 items+enchants

[warm marlin]

and its ticking all the time

[alpine wraith]

and only because poison gives a lot

[pliant topaz]

idk about this season, but for example, in df you had halls of infusion frost boss.

that boss was litearlly perma rot the entire time, good luck.

lust + just live before healers oom

but even then, (even though back then sub had a talent that healed us for 25% of our max hp everytime we pressed dance), we didnt have enough sustain

you think 10% dr during dance or 6% heal on finishers helps?

like xd

[bleak night]

well all of it added together yes it does help a bit

certainly not enough to influence whether you're brought or not

[alpine wraith]

they nerfed tertiaries a lot by df

[bleak night]

but its also not completely unimpactful

[alpine wraith]

it was so sad

[pliant topaz]

thats the point. keys are very binary

if something doesnt help you live with 1 hp

its useless

[alpine wraith]

used to be you coudl get a lot of leech and avo and make a diff

[pliant topaz]

if it makes u live with 200k hp instead of 1 its also useless

because thats how healing works in wow, u just need to live the damage then healer insta tops u

anything more is overhealing

and 6% finisher leech almost never is the thing that saves you

[bleak night]

well thats the point, on this fight in high keys the healer doesnt insta top you

[pliant topaz]

maybe healer patterns have changed bu in s1 healers would insta top u still

lemme watch a vod of that dungoen one sec

[bleak night]

maybe my healers just suck but i always hear how hard it is to keep people topped there

[alpine wraith]

there are some bosses were rot is real and even with 10% leech + EE i do notice the diff

like someone said candle king

where healers do need to be careful with mana management

[pliant topaz]

this is +20 from may https://youtu.be/dNWiQItmi9Y?t=961

you can see before next damage event people are healed enough where they dont die.

almost always 90%+

[honest basin]

EE does make a noticeable difference I will say. It's something you can definitely feel in dungeons. Maybe it's an irrelevant feeling since the only thing that matters is you lived and not by how much, but it definitely feels good to me at least.

[pliant topaz]

from what I remember best part of EE was the shield helping u live one shots

the healing was never something that I noticed

but to each their own

[bleak night]

im seeing people constantly half or 2/3 hp here

and its with the best healer to deal with the fight

[pliant topaz]

again it doenst matter how low their hp is, the healer gets them high enough to live next damage event

thats kinda the whole point

like their hp isnt trending down perma till theyre dead

[bleak night]

ok now do that fight with a pres and not literal world first key players

its absolutely helpful to that fight

[pliant topaz]

errr idk dude, it "helps" but if healer cant heal it, youre not living cuz you have 6% leech

[bleak night]

im saying the kit as a whole

not fucking 6% leech

[pliant topaz]

we were specifically takling about self sustain from sub

[bleak night]

obviously you arent leeching and keeping yourself up by yourself

[pliant topaz]

which is the leech

• ee

[bleak night]

yeah and as everyone has chimed in to say, it all stacks up to help

[pliant topaz]

we can agree to disagree, it never meaningfully helped me live a situaation i woulda otherwise died

but to each their own again. i really cant care less

[honest basin]

Yeah everything works together to make a little bit of a difference, and it feels good to play. It's not gonna make or break anything, thus why for the most part EE is more of just a "because you can" kinda thing.

[bleak night]

yeah i mean in the end i still disagree with the guy who said you can only die to one shots bc of leech and dr

because thats just not true

but its also not true to say its unimpactful at all

[honest basin]

It's really just the feeling of feeling tanky rather than the reality of what will/won't kill you bc at the end of the day very little will help you more than feint/cloak/cheat

[lilac stag]

Ovinax is a good example of it all adding up imo. You could watch your health yo-yo and proc cheat as assa, while you could pretty much stand in everything as sub.

[slate marlin]

its useful vs rot damage

[opal basalt]

i'm doing the lord's work rn btw and sandbagging sub rogue on mythic raidtesting

[warm marlin]

i am sandbagging by not playing at all

[opal basalt]

friend's guild is having problem with swedish players ping and they asked me

[bleak night]

did you fix the swedes ping

[opal basalt]

so now i'm here, just got my first CE this season sitting in voice with wr30 raiders

[warm marlin]

i recommend equipping that horrid new 90s trinket btw

give them some data that it sucks (the lily mastery one)

[bleak night]

ye get them to buff lily while you're at it

[opal basalt]

aight lily equipped for next pull

[honest basin]

Let's fucking go

[warm marlin]

less mastery than hoc 20 ilvl higher 💯

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[runic trail]

Huh, the links to the sims on Fuu's spreadsheet don't seem to be working.

Weird.

[rich stump]

I currently have 12% leech for finishers and during dance as soon as my hp moves it goes back to full shortly, this doesn't really matter since it doesn't happen often but when healer does in packs or bosses I can keep myself alive for a long time with the leech and everything else I have

[pliant topaz]

this is rank 1 world sub healing parse for ovinax. EE did 28k hps for that fight

[leaden prairie]

guyyyyyys

i know prism is op

but

if you have no trinket on pull

kinda poopy ass or

[warm marlin]

play the 2min thing

and use as 3min

[leaden prairie]

ye i was about to ask

do i just do double on use

[pliant topaz]

this is where he almost died twice you can see.

[warm marlin]

eleem was saying u just play the 2min and be depressed

or play the one from hoa if u have it

[pliant topaz]

this is the healing it did.

[warm marlin]

prism only good for like 5min onward

[leaden prairie]

oh you mean you dont even play prism

only one on use

no way

you are lying to me

why lie ryldd

i trust you ..

[pliant topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/baguette-angry-french-player-bread-smack-vr-gif-17462525

[leaden prairie]

armin ...

[pliant topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/monkey-love-monkey-cute-monkey-hug-hug-monkey-gif-8658152799845650442

[warm marlin]

i lied i forgot

#subtlety message

pretend to be a 2min spec instead

depends on ur kill time

[leaden prairie]

ok

nvm

im ignoring all of you

this is cringe posting

im not doing that

fuck you ryldd

[warm marlin]

based prism enjoyer

what can u do

play op 2min trinket and die of cringe

[lilac stag]

The healing is the last of the total of everything. On that fight specifically I was taking less dmg overall, pressing feint less, not even caring where my feet were in the cluster of ground effects. Easily topped off and if there was anything left the lil rogue healing did something.

Assa you were pressing feint often and had to actually be mindful of your feet.

We prog’d that boss way too long to just say subs overall survivability isn’t a factor.

[warm marlin]

play op 90s channel trinket and die of cringe

play prism and have no stats on pull for lust and die of cringe

play lily and die of cringe

[leaden prairie]

imma play house of card

[warm marlin]

this is the opposite of sandbag

cheater trinket!

[bleak night]

we arent arguing that subs self healing itself is particularly good

[leaden prairie]

i cba figuring out trinkets

me s2 trinkets

[bleak night]

the entire kit together, vers stacking, drs, leech, ee, all add up together to be impactful

[lilac stag]

Sub isn’t good in m+ because of its dps profile. Something the overall survivability just can’t make up for.

[bleak night]

not that sub is self healing like a dh or some shit

[lilac stag]

[crisp edge]

whats the best for pushing m+ ?

[alpine wraith]

forge is very frontloaded too

[pliant topaz]

again, i never talked about survivability being bad.... I was just talking about self healing not being a real thing.....

[bleak night]

why did you start arguing at me when i said subs kit adds up to help on candle king then lmao

because thats an entirely different argument

[pliant topaz]

u guys were arguing with me, I litearlly made the post to respond to the comment...

[lilac stag]

rogue is garbo in solo content partially due to the lack of healing.

that doesn’t mean leeching is useless.

not arguing. Just responding to a comment.

back to preparing for tornados

[lucid jackal]

It depends on the solo content. Visions felt mega easy on sin cuz restealths gave u so much dmg

Also I feel like we get too many dances now with tier buffs idk what to do with them

[bleak night]

we're gonna get tired of winning

too much winning mr tier set please we cant take any more winning

[lucid jackal]

Nah but like it's over capping dance changes it feels odd

[leaden prairie]

guy

explain to me how i play sub on ptr

compared to live

i havent checked anything yet really

[lucid jackal]

The exact same except u get more cdr

[leaden prairie]

you dont try to hold coup for cds ?

considering how much more powerful it is

[lucid jackal]

And u have to do Ur sequences more awkwardly cuz u can get double refunds with sectec I between

Uhhh maybe U could coups n stuff it never really lines up well for me in exp

[leaden prairie]

okok

[warm marlin]

hold coup if flag is like 20-25s away and stack some sht

holding coup for dance doesnt really sim great but probably better in real gameplay if you're also holding dance for add sets

[warm marlin]

seems like sometimes u get double dance between flag and sometimes u dont, if its close and u dont send ur gonna overcap but its probably not a mistake

idk

its a bit weird

[lucid jackal]

Ya thats what I mean

it's just awkward

[warm marlin]

overcap seems kinda fine since you triple dance and get a bit more value out of flag buff and prism

[lucid jackal]

ya

It's not like u deal damage outside of cds

just feels wrong

[warm marlin]

the whole theme of the tier set is overcapping so

overcap escalating blade overcap dance charges

[pliant topaz]

overcap theeeeeeeeeeeeeese

n

uts

[lilac stag]

Just wait for a full sender from CN with no storm shenanigans to slam out all rank 1s

[warm marlin]

[bleak night]

[lilac stag]

I do be curious to see what robot says difference is with full send vs all the holds

[bleak night]

if you dont hold your pc blows up

[warm marlin]

i tried holding coup stuff, i tried the cold blood between flag stuff, it all seemed quite a bit worse than just sending

send good when unseen blade good

[lilac stag]

tea time

my assumption is most of this won’t mater until a week before launch when bliz figures out 40% of a tier bonus is too much and the tooltip doesn’t match the set bonus.

then we all pray deathstalker isn’t the way.

[opal basalt]

okay so it's actually crazy, fractillus is 100% WA doing the work

[alpine wraith]

ready for another set nerf and baseline increase

shadowstrike dmg increased by 50%

[half comet]

so is there a place people are talking about PTR rotation or stuff

TC sub hasnt had a msg in 3 months

[pliant topaz]

for sub usually TC's talk in another channel and we post finalized results there

not every conversation

Eleem has found some initial stuff but rotation seems to be mostly the same

but also its hard to know much right now since changes that are so drastic to tier (like yesterdays) could change things

but also theyre bugged so like, no point in immediately implementing things based on an initial post, that doesnt match the in game behaviour, just to get changed and we have to re do things

[steel jolt]

it would be a waste of time to try and figure out anything for PTR because there can still be changes

[pliant topaz]

exactly

we usually do more serious TC when its closer to the patch, things are finalized, etc

like we still expect nerfs either to tier or sub baseline, as well as some trinket behaviour changes

[left ledge]

2p: Unseen blade bonus damage decreased to 10% (was 30%)

Chance to proc decreased to 5% (was 35%)

4p: Now correctly buffs the bonus Coup de Grace

Bonus Coup de Grace damage decreased to 20% (was 150%)

Shuriken Toss damage increased by 300%

“Did sub rogue get a buff or not when the nerfs hit “

[lucid jackal]

Writing fan fiction of being a victim is crazy behavior

[left ledge]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/joke

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jest

[lucid jackal]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/victim

[left ledge]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fool

[sullen hare]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/janky

[keen dome]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rogue

a mischievous person : scamp

[left ledge]

[keen dome]

I have never seen the verb used. The more you know

[pliant topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/on-fire-pizza-gif-6074641

[keen dome]

Nice, pizza.

[still crystal]

do i have to use the supercharged combo point or will it supercharge my next spender regardless of what point i finish on? havent played since they reworked this this mechanic

[sullen hare]

it is automatically used

[still crystal]

ok

is it even worth tracking at that point

[sullen hare]

I personally don't

[alpine wraith]

just know you want to use SoD before or 1 finisher before secret technique

[still crystal]

ya

[stoic flower]

boys, sub feels good on raid PTR (based on how the fights play)

I think its sub szn

I mean, I'm a nobody but yenno feelcraft

[slate marlin]

its always sub season in raid

m+ tho...

[vale pine]

possible, rly hard to predict over a month in advance

[runic trail]

Heyo Fuu, did the spreadsheet break in terms of linking to the raidbot reports?

The links just take me to a bunch of 'simulation not found' pages

[still crystal]

do yall actively track finality procs

or just let it happen when it happens

[slate marlin]

ye its a lot of tuning pending anyway

[vale pine]

possible i take a look tomorrow

[hazy breach]

Nop

[vale pine]

link works for me, oh race sims might timed out

[runic trail]

Its everything from race sims and below for me

Apart from the belt stuff, belt stuff works fine, just checked

[half comet]

is that an open readable channel i assume not

[slate marlin]

theres a channel called tc-research

which is public

[pliant topaz]

not for sub

[hazy breach]

Its not really any secret cabal type shit either, most of the stuff is just randomly tossed in this channel

Since its such an unpopular spec the speed at which this channel moves isnt particularly fast anyway

[half comet]

lol i guess thats true

[hazy breach]

But currently it seems like the only difference between s2 and s3 is that you want to use storm inbetween your coups

So you dont waste your unseen blade stacks

But ideally they fix our tier so we dont have that issue in the first place and have to find a workaround

[north schooner]

by fix you mean them increasing EB's max stacks?

[hazy breach]

That would be a fix, i personally think making it so we can stack EB while the 4p is active is a better way to fix it

But either way is better than what we currently have imo

[north schooner]

yeah that could work as well, you would only overcap when building for the normal CdG

[midnight ledge]

really dumb question, Is there an easier way to spread poisons besides black powder and storm? I feel like the other two specs have a much easier time doing so :<

[crisp lion]

@pliant topaz ya i see why you like watching al

these guys are fuckin crazy

[brisk onyx]

wtf xin

[bleak night]

AL doing what flyquest shouldve done

[brisk onyx]

[bleak night]

instead of trying to force end realize you win from here and back off lmao

[lilac stag]

are we back?

[pliant topaz]

i told you dude, actually so fun to watch! shanks legit best mid ijn msi, better than chovy and knight and faker

kael tarzan best jg sup duo

hope goated

flandre so goated too... shoulda seen him vs geng sp[anking kinn with smolder top

[pliant topaz]

that rotation by AL holy fuck

lost like 4 cs for that entire dive

[bleak night]

jesus christ

[pliant topaz]

holy fuck

shanks

[bleak night]

shanks just shit on all of t1 at once

ok keria based though

[pliant topaz]

AHAHAHAHAH

[solemn sonnet]

that shanks play was crazy

[pliant topaz]

shanks built diff

GUMMMAAAA??????????

[bleak night]

t1 plot armor kicking in

[pliant topaz]

doran and hope both played that insanely well

[bleak night]

doran has been popping off on the games t1 is winning

[pliant topaz]

ONNNNNER

THAT WAS LIKE A 5 MAN LILIA R

SILVER MOTHERFUCKING SCRAPES MAN

[weary saffron]

holy

[bleak night]

doran jump in into lillia flash

and just win the game

ez

[pliant topaz]

t1 fucking fighting for their lives

[bleak night]

silver scrapes lets go

never forget the goat though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96Sr9D213Lg

[pliant topaz]

LETS GO AL

[sour warren]

History says T1 never loses BO5s to LPL. Feels like same story this time.

[pliant topaz]

olsaaaaf

project run @ guma

[weary saffron]

season 4 flashbacks in my eyes to olaf jung

[bleak night]

t1 refuses to lose to anyone but gen g

that skarner ult was disgusting

[ionic thorn]

is it bad to macro Shadow Dance and Symbols together?

[pliant topaz]

fuck

[ionic thorn]

For reference I'd still be keeping a separate keybing for Symbols itself

[bleak night]

keria is fucking nuts

holy fuck

[lilac stag]

You don’t use them at the same time so just keep them separate.

[crisp lion]

literally him

[ionic thorn]

I thought you did for the opener?

and or the 1.5m windows

[warm marlin]

you don't always use them together

sometimes you do

[ionic thorn]

how often do you send dance without symbols?

I genuinely find the guide hard to follow unfortunately

[warm marlin]

the second dance in flag often doesn't line up

that is the main one

sometimes you can send a third dance in flag a bit aggressively (like 19s left on sectec cd), wouldn't cast them together there

or with tfd you might symbols before this third dance

[ionic thorn]

weird because the guide makes it sound like you want to align dance with symbols

unless I'm just really bad at comprehension

[warm marlin]

you never dance without symbols, you just don't always cast them at the same time

mainly because of supercharger

[steel jolt]

you can dance if you want to, but you can't leave symbols behind

[ionic thorn]

ah that makes sense

[fringe geyser]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

Aligned in this case is used during, and not exactly the same time.

This image should help

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[hollow prawn]

Can I leave my friends behind

[vernal junco]

Tried playing Arcane Mage and realized they really do know how to design a pure burst spec with very low downtime.

rip dust

[amber smelt]

How much ilvl is worth the difference between sword and dagger in offhand? I want to try sub out and I have a couple decent swords but no daggers at all

[tepid trellis]

infinite

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[amber smelt]

Cool, thanks

[pale rock]

So sub is looking like the primary choice atm going into s3?

[vale pine]

you dance back to back in the first 90 sec window.
The second dance often has the symbols cast delayed to get supercharger on secret technique

means you essentially have a high potential to not use them "together" once every 90 secs

[vale pine]

basically, any cheap green dagger you get from the auction house is better than a non dagger (for offhand)

[carmine portal]

It's also easy to get a free dagger from the nightfall event

[vernal hull]

Why did i instantly think of the safety dance...

[dusty copper]

Is it me or is there not much content no sub rogue m+ and raid on youtube?

[vernal hull]

Well. No one plays it.

[carmine portal]

Probably a gap that could be filled there by a good Sub rogue

[tepid trellis]

for m+ its not likely to be the case since its not meta, so almost nobody is playing it, in terms of raid, there for sure are a bunch of PoVs out there, but alot of its gonna be old stuff since it would be from progress times and since the tier is almost over now its a bit ehhh

and when it comes to stuff like youtube guides, they are absolutely horrible to make and gets outdated super fast by the smallest of changes

[lilac stag]

There’s also no money in it. The amount of effort to put into it for relatively no views would make it a passion project.

[steel zinc]

Always outlaw tier since sims Show it at the top. 🤷

[dry plank]

There is few streamers on twitch

[lilac stag]

Poor outlaw went from trying to unalive themselves every 20 seconds to 5 second channeling every 20 seconds.

[dusty copper]

Makes sense

[lilac stag]

Eleem put out a sub rogue burst guide video 6-7 months ago. Well done. Good info. I would be surprised if it has over 1500 views.

[tepid trellis]

1.1k

[runic trail]

Huge

[lilac stag]

Not too far off

[short radish]

it's just 5 guys viewing it 300 times each

[hazy breach]

It doesnt though

[vestal escarp]

Then it's truly outlover

[tepid trellis]

finally a sub tier

[lilac stag]

let the guy summoning ritual begin

[runic trail]

Dust was a great ability bring it back.

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/powerpuffpentagram-cult-ritual-gif-13161196

[lilac stag]

That will summon me. Poor dust. Gone but not forgotten.

[vestal escarp]

[lilac stag]

[hollow spear]

Just say "dust wasn't op" three times and fuu and guy will have another two hour discussion about it

[leaden plover]

dust wasn`t op👀

[lilac stag]

I’m waiting for the assa reality of envenom doing 20% more in live than in sims (pulling number out of thin air)

[fathom adder]

where can i see the current ptr sims, just curious

[tepid trellis]

u cant

[hazy breach]

Its also kind of a meme as they havent tuned any trinkets

So theres not much useful conclusion to draw from it

And if youre thinking "but the patch is releasing very soon, shouldnt the tuning be close to final by now?"

Then youre right, but its not

[fathom adder]

yeah was just interested bc of the talk

i know they are a meme because of that

ty for the answer tho guys

[grave shore]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[wary plover]

any S3 early sim with recent buffs?

[raw dust]

!stat

[short radish]

sub hasn't been the prog spec for a while and it'd be nice for it to stop being an assi tier again

[lilac stag]

ima gonna need to 📠 ✅ this

https://tenor.com/view/kristen-wiig-yes-success-win-bam-gif-17404892

[lilac stag]

No. Come back in a month.

[sly shore]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[tribal blade]

https://youtu.be/VTRzmpu8ll8?si=m-DQ6_djbvMZBX2l&t=685 @leaden prairie

[leaden prairie]

ok but

these circles

half of them isnt suposed to spawn

i swear

[tribal blade]

yeah it's toxic af

[leaden prairie]

like normally they just dont all spawn

[tribal blade]

that happened in one of the last cinderbrews i did

[leaden prairie]

i got scammed here no cap

[tribal blade]

we got like double of normal

dw i believe it lol

[leaden prairie]

hehe

[tribal blade]

because this game

is hanging on by a thread

half the clips in these video are bugs

[leaden prairie]

ye

[tribal blade]

one clips is the last boss in ML gattling gun in a 21

suddenly spinning 180 randomly at the end

and killing 3 people

and bricking the key

[leaden prairie]

bro

[tribal blade]

another is rookery boss doing under the platform

[leaden prairie]

i have not done a single ML the last like

3 weeks

that didnt bug out

last boss

not lying

[tribal blade]

yeah it's terrible

[leaden prairie]

idk

[tribal blade]

i just pop feint there every time now just in case lol

[leaden prairie]

you still fall trough the boat

btw

[tribal blade]

LOL

of course

i fell through that boat so many times

[leaden prairie]

they still havent resolved that half of their new circles are invisible

the new visual

2nd boss halls for example

the circle sometimes are invisible gg

just dodge noob

[lilac stag]

It’s a feature not a bug

[tribal blade]

that boss already blows too

nice to know it's gonna be even worse now

[dry plank]

You need to be farseer to avoid it

[void ocean]

duhh thats why they r called circ-less

https://tenor.com/view/teambestb-gif-20183486

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/ba-dum-tsss-drum-band-gif-7320811

[void ocean]

and that was the last time anyone spoke in sub channel...

[hollow spear]

You'd think

Wait until we eventually get nerfed

[runic trail]

voting dawnbreaker back in for another season was... a choice.

[steel jolt]

Im glad someone got it!

[lilac stag]

It’s fast and easy. Good for vault slavery.

[short radish]

it's also great for TFD

[carmine portal]

It's fast and easy until you have to pug it

[short radish]

and any dungeon that makes TFD proc more is a good dungeon in my eyes

fuck arakara

[paper iron]

YOU RE SO BAD

respec assa and press shadowstep nah? idk

[leaden prairie]

real

[slate marlin]

Clip was hilarious ngl

[lilac stag]

Pugged 95% of my dawn breakers. It’s fine.

[alpine wraith]

gotta love doing the ball boss

and someone SMASHING

it into the nearest wall

[void ocean]

healer issue

[lucid jackal]

[haughty mural]

[lilac stag]

[lilac stag]

That’s where sub versa stacking and leech comes in. You just carry the key there.

Right @bleak night ?

[haughty mural]

Ngl dropping so much mastery lately doesn’t „feel“ as great

I can totally understand hacha sometimes

[keen dome]

[flint parrot]

@leaden prairie damn your ui so clean man

[leaden prairie]

i know right

[shadow lance]

You changed it?

Last time I check, I was not really a big fan

[flint parrot]

can u share your border / bar texture settings for wa please

its kinda shadowy and blurry, love it a lot

[haughty mural]

Wanna what else is shadowy and blurry ?

Our clones - I remembered that yesterday on rookery first boss
Forgot for a brief moment that they just fall of a cliff (you can’t see them anyway)

[leaden prairie]

no !

https://wago.io/KV-ljIcdb

everything in here

bar texture link

called d1

for the borders i use a a baseline thing from blizzard, called shadow something

and you put 2 offset, 6 size

[haughty mural]

Got uwu i its name just like our best talent

[blazing iron]

you need a separate key bind for backstab \ shadow strike because of Danse Macabre right? may have missed something in guide but it seems that way

[lilac stag]

You need separate binds for everything.

[alpine wraith]

yea we only really macro 2 or 3 things but still use them separately so it is the same number of buttons in the end

[north schooner]

you can use a macro which combines BS during dance and activating dance

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow DanceThis will cast Shadow Dance on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[blazing iron]

this spec is rocket science ngl, off gcd buttons make my brain explode

i am a much more humbled sin rogue, yall built diff

[sullen hare]

"it's not so bad once you get it," says man with subtlety-addled brainworms

that man is me

[blazing iron]

i think im kinda getting it but its just like alot to take in at once, i havent tried to play sub since its rework in emerald nightmare

the amount of extra buttons is a little annoying, and thats i think the main thing that is getting me since im used to like significantly less/ and much slower pacing as well

[alpine wraith]

yea it is complicated

not hard per se

the secuence of actions is not hard to do if you know the logic

but to know the logic it can take time depending on person

[blazing iron]

it seems fun though, the burst windows actually feel like burst windows(pacing wise) unlike sin which barely changes during dm

im mostly learning it for next patch to prep for raid just in case , does the set bonus change anything rotationally from the current guides ?

[hazy breach]

Largely no

The only thing is you want to storm inbetween your coups in blades

But ideally they fix the set so we dont have to do that, but you know, were not expecting much around these parts

[alpine wraith]

only thing i expect is maybe they fix the krangle buffing the wrong coup

escalating might be a whole bowl of pasta

because it has like 3 things that stink on UX

[blazing iron]

right, gotcha thats not too bad, it seems sub has some of the same clunk that needs small fixes like fatebound sin

[shadow lance]

"Fatebound" "small fixes"

[hazy breach]

Subs aoe is jank as hell yep

Deathstalker is big oof

But ST as trickster is nice

[haughty mural]

That 3 liner summed it up perfectly

[lilac stag]

Need it as a haiku next time.

[haughty mural]

I would love that

[runic trail]

Issue is AoE takes up 3 syllables from line one

[haughty mural]

My immersion

[runic trail]

Sub multi target
Deathstalker is jank as hell
One mob trickster, nice.

[sharp lake]

have we ever had not janky aoe?

[honest basin]

Sub AOE suck
Deathstalker also big suck
Trickster is big good

My submission for the haiku

[slate marlin]

issue is that sub is so close to having perfect gameplay

so close....

[honest basin]

It's the most fun spec in the game for me rn, even with the little .. "issues"

[formal helm]

Approved

The haiku committee has had a discussion and it has been approved.

[flint parrot]

Ty Zac

[feral coyote]

any recommendations for the belt ?

[runic trail]

Its in the pins!

[grave mango]

BFA Sub was a meme but it was very simple. Shuriken Storm > Evis

[honest basin]

Whatever feels right

Vibes gotta be immaculate on my belt

[severe grotto]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/bongosub-sub-rogue-world-of-warcraft-rogue-aoe-gif-27554873

[sharp lake]

omg i love that gif

[lilac stag]

That wasn’t AoE though.

[grave mango]

Tru.

That's why it's a meme.

[lilac stag]

It was hardly a meme. It was a spec identity of actual priority / funnel dmg

[grave mango]

That gif is awesome.

[maiden oar]

how hard would it be to make a weakaura that is just the number of targets with fw on them

i can make simple ones that show debuff on current target np but idk how to show all nearby targets

[brittle plinth]

Someone shared one

[maiden oar]

ok ill look

i searched earlier and all i saw was somoene saying they had a simple text one but they didnt post it iirc

[brittle plinth]

#subtlety message

[maiden oar]

ty

ill try and edit it so its just the number

[brittle plinth]

This is a bit more than that

But it's pretty neat

Made by our friend in the discord

[maiden oar]

appreciate it

[maiden oar]

ok i made a text version if anyone searches this later and wants it its just this

[maiden oar]

actually i think this works best (just an icon that shows lowest duration find weakness and # of enemies with it in the corner)

https://wago.io/6Eyc_D3Nn

if anyone wants it its here

[hazy breach]

I hate that this WA is useful

Just lemme hit eviscerate and strikes and not be forced to bp until my FW goes down below a certain threshold

[maiden oar]

yeah its annoying

[alpine wraith]

ahaha

time to swoop it

[swift tinsel]

BP below 9 targets is ultimate stink

[tribal blade]

@hazy breach @plush roost @chrome palm there's no shot i make title at this rate

this is doomed

[steel jolt]

not with that attitude

[chrome palm]

youre currently above the cutoff

you time 1 key youre above estimated na cutoff (before resil sales )

[tribal blade]

it sounds so easy, yet no invites is kinda oof

and i have a 20 workshop in bags lol

and some people i met to not be in their group but play with sometimes, the healer kinda ended up being a bit of a dick

so i thought i had a road in but now i'm back to square one

[chrome palm]

you play at bad hours for na tbh

[tribal blade]

maybe i just yolo the workshop and then try to speed run it when it bricks to 19

[chrome palm]

i dont think youre gonna yolo 20 ws

[tribal blade]

i definitely do

[chrome palm]

i think you need bridge skip for 20 ws

seems really tight

[tribal blade]

yeah it's for sure a tight key

that would be invite a lock angle i think

dude that 3rd boss is so hard with 200ms haha

it's horrible

[chrome palm]

ye you need to farm 19 resil and get a luck dfc or ml

possibly both

do you have much luck listing your own group at your time

also have you tried playing with oce players or do you get bad home ms

[tribal blade]

i had to stop running with OCE back in the day because i would usually get impossibly bad ping

something about how it bounces from hk>na>oce

but recently it seems like sometimes oce ping will be fine

but i actively avoid oce groups because i don't want to get put on horrible ping and int their keys

[chrome palm]

i was wondering if it routed through na or not that is unfort

[tribal blade]

someone told me once it did, i'm not a tech person so i ahve no idea but it sounds right haha

[chrome palm]

how is assa on your ping o_0

[tribal blade]

it's not bad

it's not very reactive so it's fine

[chrome palm]

makes your invites easier too tbh

as well as || timing the key || 🙈

i hate to say

[tribal blade]

sub is actually way worse to play with high ping because of dance

[tribal blade]

hehe i try my best 😉

there is actually 1 upside to playing late on NA

there'll be times later when everyone is asleep that teams queue up their keys

and the pool of players is so small at that time that it's easier to sneak into stuff

[raw dust]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[narrow girder]

is there something that gives cdr on blades

[graceful crown]

shadowblades? nope

[vale pine]

nothing in the current tier, we had trinkets who did in the past

[lilac stag]

Playing with Aussies?

[keen dome]

I like playing with Aussies. You get to learn such fun and interesting words.

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/australia-austrlain-all-good-bruv-all-g-gif-26064268

[vale pine]

˙ooʇ ɐᴉɹʇsn∀ ɯoɹɟ ǝɹɐ noʎ ʍouʞ ʇou pᴉp

[short radish]

yeah i am, that's why i always have such shit takes

[vale pine]

[tribal blade]

oi guvnah

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/breakdancing-breaking-raygun-olympics-2024-australian-break-dance-gif-8899224022021640048

[steel zinc]

!sims

[wicked jolt]

Simulations:
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html

[reef lake]

curiously does anyone have a m+ build that runs Goremaw's Bite?

I was curious to see if someone has one I could try or play aroudn with

I know its suboptimal haha

[hazy breach]

Goremaw stinks, so no

Especially in aoe

[reef lake]

mhm

im aware, i was curious if anyone had a build with it just wanted to try it or what talent to sub out for it if i were to take it

[hazy breach]

Rotten probably

[reef lake]

ty ❤️

[hazy breach]

But its probably not even worth pressing it during cds

Since shadowstrike will do significantly more as it cleaves

[reef lake]

yeah i mean no build takes it i assume its turbo dog

but i wanted to mess around with it even if its troll xD

[hazy breach]

It gives energy, but we already have energy during cds

And when we dont have energy (ie outside cds), we dont do any damage anyway

[steel zinc]

Its just a dead talent since forever

Should rework it or put sth in new

[plush roost]

It would be so easy to make goremaw something to consider

"your next 3 finishers cost no energy and do X% more damage"

People would def take it over rotten or finality in ST if it had that extra bit of text

[haughty mural]

Would also be great for dances outside flag/blade window

Also needs to nimble

Obv

[graceful osprey]

Just sow some chaos and make goremaw hit for 20 mil and causes your next three finishers to either cast three more times or stack three times in the case of rupture and snd

[tribal blade]

how about you go even crazier with it

make goremaw's a builder that builds combo points but casts finishers

[dry plank]

And are at max cp. press 3-4 finishers in a row is so satisfying

[tribal blade]

make it cast like 3 evis in a row and build 3cps per cast

[swift tinsel]

Mini fangs of the father

[tribal blade]

so you machine gun 3 evis and build full CPs with 1 button

[graceful osprey]

Machine gun sectech

[dry plank]

Or make it duplicate next finisher my god

[tribal blade]

yeah so many different avenues you could hit

so many different interesting things 😦

in the span of 1 scroll in this discord we developed like 4-5 different interesting ways to make goremaws better

[fallow nimbus]

All that needs work hours and rogue gets no hours, just max 5 mins at the end of 1 meeting

[dry plank]

I do not understand how with nowadays power of ai they can’t refactor our spaghetti and add normal changes

To class

I like spam finishers it feels good

[fallow nimbus]

If you ever had to hold a presentation and got this mini blackout then you know how rogue changes are

[graceful osprey]

Would also be cool if goremaw animation has like a shadowy wolf come in and attack like hunter pets going a leap charge

[lapis hatch]

It would all be cool but I’d be happy with a season where sec tec isn’t bugged

[graceful osprey]

11.2 surely

[swift tinsel]

Was a big ol felhound

[lilac stag]

Sir this is the sub channel. Not #outlaw

[vale pine]

lol

to contribute to the discussion earlier.
Goremaws is just bad in design, because it does compete with shadowcraft

shadowcraft fixes energy, so you don't rly need goremaws

[lilac stag]

it’s actually sad when you really look at the state the rework was left in 10.2 and where it still is.

and you start counting the multiple reworks other classes and specs have gotten

[summer lynx]

maybe a rework in midnight /cope

[graceful osprey]

Surely in midnight

[proven plover]

I wouldnt even call it rework

[lilac stag]

instead of only completing 30% of the talents. We’ll get 10% of the missing 70% looked at.

choose wisely

[lilac stag]

Oh it was a rework. It’s just incomplete AF

[graceful osprey]

11.2
Increase backstab damage by 3%

That’s it

[lilac stag]

📈

[left ledge]

From what I can gather, it doesn’t seem like the team working on subs rework had full creative freedom nor the time

[swift tinsel]

That’s part of the picture, yeah

[lilac stag]

I doubt any team has full creative freedom. They all report to someone, as well as the mismanagement of resources (time) be it the devs or the project leads

[swift tinsel]

Plus it sounds like there was an idea of a direction but not a clear path on how to get there

So we ended up with a lot of puzzle pieces but the picture is blurry and disjointed

[lilac stag]

sounds like a highschool group project. We’re just going talk about it for ever and not actually do anything to turn in.

[swift tinsel]

Perpetual brainstorming phase

[lilac stag]

and they didn’t even clear out all the bad ideas from the brainstorm.

[swift tinsel]

Nah they literally kept them all on the board and turned in the board

[proven plover]

Tbh i find the gameplay pretty fun atm

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/charlie-day-gif-18564553

[proven plover]

Its weird but its fun

[solemn lance]

Lets all revolt and camp main quest givers in an attempt to protest. If we all do it we should have enough to camp 1 NPC per server....

[swift tinsel]

The gameplay mostly is but there’s a lot of rough edges

[solemn lance]

Not that ypu can even do that anymore

[swift tinsel]

At least in single target, aoe is one jagged janky edge

[lilac stag]

It sucks in aoe. It’s fine in ST/ow target cleave. The focus should be on dance and managing cd timings. Not how crangled we can make the during dance cast sequence of different abilities.

if it was actually fun (subjective) more people would play it. It’s just too convoluted in dance.

[swift tinsel]

I actually like the pacing that having the mini and big goes provides

[lilac stag]

the cd management is already pushing most out of their wow dps comfort zone.

the pacing isn’t the problem

well for some it is

[swift tinsel]

Imo cleaning up the cd juggling needs work for sure

[lilac stag]

the pacing is a bit more problematic in m+, but the spec design for aoe is the larger problem there

[proven plover]

Assa just feels more complete and doesnt suffer from an Identity crisis. Most talents are viable and the interactions make sense. Thats why we arent as popular, because there is the subjectively better Option for most people. My opinion

[swift tinsel]

But having the flow chart of “what can I send with this Sectech” is something I like about the spec

[swift tinsel]

Absolute agree

[lilac stag]

assa doesn’t have an identify crisis because it can do literally everything but 90 second CDs.

[swift tinsel]

And sin got the majority of dev attention during the rework so it should be the most complete-feeling

[lilac stag]

when you give a spec everything their identity is 🐐

[swift tinsel]

And did so by hoovering up everything

Opt-in damage profile of each type, can’t go wrong

[proven plover]

They just have a better mental picture of what they want assa to be, how it should Look and feel. I dont think its a "time invested" reasoning, its a "inspiration and ideas" reasoning

[vale pine]

assassiantion got more time spend iterating on talents and spells

but sub plays better

so there is that

[swift tinsel]

It’s absolutely time-invested though

[lilac stag]

they touch killing spree, go one step forward and like 30 steps back. You can’t kill ‘self with it, but you’re locked out for 5 seconds every 20 seconds from pressing a button. WT actual F

[swift tinsel]

Killing spree is funny bc they’re literally getting great feedback about it every day but just aren’t doing that

Instead putting this weird shooty roadblock into gameplay

[lilac stag]

it’s Ion we know best development style

[swift tinsel]

Man needs to go back to lawyering

[lilac stag]

and either no one wants to step up and say this is stupid, or no one actually cares at this point.

[swift tinsel]

Or they’re getting as ignored as the player base

[lilac stag]

well someone was lurking there

So I doubt it wasn’t seen

[swift tinsel]

This is the “You Think You Do But You Don’t” company after all

[swift tinsel]

Seen but ignored

[lilac stag]

seen but disregarded

to me ignoring means they’re not even looking at it (sub)

[proven plover]

Its just my feeling as a dev, i would rather work on something that is clear and easily defined than on something shaky and weird. From my Perspective the unclear Direction might be the reason to why they dont invest more time into sub. And thats the core of the Issue, the time investment is just a consequence

[lilac stag]

as we sat watching ever other spec get buffed

it’s their job to define it

so their failing isn’t an excuse to ignore

[mint swift]

Wait they made it worse?

[swift tinsel]

Like scath said, it’s their job to provide that stability

And idk

Develop it?

As a developer

[lilac stag]

and sub is really fucking easy to design. Dance is the cd. Big burst every 90. Smaller burst every 45. It’s not fucking rocket science.

[swift tinsel]

Yeah the framework is great

Just smooth out the pain points

Flesh out aoe that isn’t Blade Flurry

Or if that’s what they want rogue aoe to be, expound upon that for each spec like sin with Spatter

[lilac stag]

delete BF. Put combo back. Tune Sectech/BP for aoe

[mint swift]

That would require paying they employeeys and not laying off large amount of staff though

which unlike rogue design

blizzard is very good at doing

[proven plover]

Df aoe was so much more fun with tornado

Fuck bf

[short radish]

No. Do not bring tornado back. Delete it

[lilac stag]

DF was shit. Tornado is shit

[proven plover]

Idk I like it

[lilac stag]

Dust was the one good part

[short radish]

I dont and my takes are based while yours are cringe

So nyeh

[swift tinsel]

Nado doesn’t fit anymore which is fine

[proven plover]

Yes good Argument xd

[swift tinsel]

Specs can evolve

[lilac stag]

When the Aussie calls you out for tornado loving you know you’re on the wrong side of history.

remember they’re from the future

[short radish]

[proven plover]

Everyone is entitled to having wrong opinions

[short radish]

True. It's already Monday morning

[mint swift]

Wasn’t in the entire convo, what are the main problems ppl have w sub atm? Sorry im like mega loopy and haven’t played it in a while

[swift tinsel]

Aoe design is bad

Cd effects can be cleaned up

[lilac stag]

CD interaction (dance especially) is cringe

[short radish]

Tornado is cringe

Goremaw is cringe

[mint swift]

So it’s like
A lot

[swift tinsel]

PV

[short radish]

Blizzard gives basically 0 fucks about us

[swift tinsel]

WM

Both SF

[mint swift]

Isn’t that rogue in general

[short radish]

Except when were slightly strong

[lilac stag]

more dead talents than good hell even serviceable talents

[swift tinsel]

Left and right side pathing

[short radish]

Not assi

[swift tinsel]

Idk they care at least a bit

[lilac stag]

they care when bugs are a net positive. That’s it.

[proven plover]

Doesnt nado sim highest in dslice tho

[swift tinsel]

It’s just obvious that they have other rogue things they wanna do this cycle

Last one was bug fixes, this one is killing spree

[lilac stag]

Which means absolutely nothing

[swift tinsel]

Who knows what happens 11.2.5

Not like they’d tell us Kekw