subtlety

[hazy breach]

Like azerite or artifacts

[grave scaffold]

can anyone else copy the build on Fuus spreadsheet?

[proven plover]

I'm just wondering because as it is right now and as it was during the entirety of TWW, having these unchanged for 2 more expansions would be pretty underwhelming

[formal helm]

and they're trying to go the route where the game would be more intuitive with the announced WA removal (at least that's what I understood it as) so I'd expect a lot of pruning of excessive and unneccessary buffs and stuff

[proven plover]

judging by how they've been

[plush roost]

The logic is simple: BP is already 80% of an eviscerate, and blizzard wants DN to work on only Evis/Envenom. So if envenom can spatter DN may as well allow DS sub to Shadowy Spatter their DN

[north schooner]

WAs are not being removed. They will just get more limited

[formal helm]

if they were the central and only feature, yes
if they add additional external power sources it's fine

[hazy breach]

Idk just make it work with BP

[formal helm]

yeah, that
mb

[plush roost]

Yeah that would be nice but yknow

I feel like blizzard wont

[swift tinsel]

then sin would want it to affect CT

[north schooner]

perhaps they will give some more insight into what they will touch UI-wise in a couple months who knows

[plush roost]

Bro DN CT

Would go Crazy

[formal helm]

just feels the same as nimble flurry to me, ngl

you'd again use evis in st

aoe*

**

[proven plover]

have it affect all finishers and call it ER what

[hazy breach]

I mean i would like that too, but i think they could skip that as envenom already cleaves so its fine for them

That was unironically what i hoped the tier would do, make it so we could rupture/ct/whatever finisher with DN

[plush roost]

I mean spatter nimble bf are all flurry effects, just weird that sub cant use their capstone in aoe without it being a loss.

[hazy breach]

But alas, instead we stuck with this

[swift tinsel]

this would be a really fun set to play with if they did

[formal helm]

oh deffo
I agree with that notion 100%

but I also really really dislike being target locked

so idk

if I have to use, sure w/e

[plush roost]

Unlucky, anyway Frostfire Frost gets Ignite and Fire gets Glacial Spike

Hehe

[formal helm]

but if I don't have to I'll just skip it

[swift tinsel]

make it affect any damaging finisher from the tier set, if it works well implement it into the hero tree after

[plush roost]

Sectec DN

pantsgrab

[swift tinsel]

there is absolutely precedent for this kind of thing

[runic trail]

I'd be down for that, may turn sin into a more dot heavy spec than being so heavily weighted towards envenom

[formal helm]

or at least make it so you use DS on st again or smth
now it's just completely overshadowed by trickster

no reason to use it in aoe / st

[plush roost]

Dw they'll make a boss where only white swings and their effects do damage! Our time will shine

Hunt them down!!!

[swift tinsel]

I am annoyed though we get another Krosus boss

[formal helm]

can't wait for what? 8% of my dmg to be hunt them down

yay.

[plush roost]

Nah we're over due for krosus

[formal helm]

what was it like SL when melee was a large part of our dmg?

[plush roost]

Last we had was what, terros?

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[plush roost]

Yeyeye need me a big meatball in a hole yknow

[hazy breach]

No

[plush roost]

To smack

[formal helm]

which boss are you even referring to?

[swift tinsel]

the one that shoots walls at people

forgot the name

[formal helm]

uhhh

what.

shoots walls at people

that sounds fun

[swift tinsel]

yeah

you use them to block crystals or something like that

but not too many layers

[formal helm]

I see you're very much of a DS hater

[hazy breach]

Have you tried playing it properly on aoe

[formal helm]

no

[plush roost]

Shadowstrike different targets

So you never dn

GAMING

[hazy breach]

Like it feels kinda bad on ST, but its playable

In aoe its actually horrendous to play

[formal helm]

I'm trying not to look up too much info on ptr to leave some surprises but it's hard man

[formal helm]

ye, hence why I said only ST

aoe I don't want to have anything to do with DS

fuck that shit in aoe

[hazy breach]

Ye but why make it so we play the thing that feels bad to play

Instead of the one that feels good to play

[formal helm]

fair

[plush roost]

Thrall and Xalatoes form a pact and become XalaThrall sorry spiilers!!

[hazy breach]

But besides, new deathstalker tier set seems undertuned

[vale pine]

they removed many of the "trickery" things from sub

like sprint on water

no fall damage

etc

[formal helm]

and then they laser deathwing again?

[hazy breach]

Ye

[vale pine]

all things we had that got removed in favor of generalizing specs/classes

[formal helm]

I'm never gonna understand why they did this one

[hazy breach]

Atleast we have perma tricks, thats something

[formal helm]

I hate it so much

[plush roost]

They laser the jailer with friendship, filling the Void (get it??!!?) in his holeshaped chest

[vale pine]

"you shall not (design to) be unique" must be written on the wall somewhere in the dev's office

[formal helm]

love the shit that comes with it (NW last boss)

or my tank dying and insta releasing only for all of the adds to come running back to the respawn

[hazy breach]

I mean thats the worst boss in history

[formal helm]

100%

[hazy breach]

So L anyway

[formal helm]

I hated that boss with passion

[formal helm]

oh true
and then they become those care bears and ride off into the sunset and rainbows

[hazy breach]

But after looking at the numbers im just really confused as to why subs deathstalker is 30% and assa gets 50%

[formal helm]

wdym?

[hazy breach]

The new tier

[plush roost]

They buffed sub ds by 50% in season 1

[formal helm]

oh ye

[plush roost]

So Obviously they MUST make it 30%

[formal helm]

idk, it's just weird

[hazy breach]

Napkin mathing the things thats missing from simc has the set coming out to be like 8.5-9%

[grave scaffold]

is the echoing void bug still happening

[hazy breach]

Compared to the current ~13%

and the ~18% from trickster

[vale pine]

I understand why

[formal helm]

ye ye, went over to assa channel to check

I had a brain fart and thought for a sec that eleem meant the dps gain was that much

[vale pine]

ye, i would estimate 10% at max

[hazy breach]

Like the most powerful part of the set

Is the +2 seconds on symbols

[formal helm]

yeah

idk

[hazy breach]

Idk

[formal helm]

hopefully they change it?

would the increase of 30% to 50% help a lot?

like how much would it affect it?

[hazy breach]

Well it would raise the numbers yes

[vale pine]

my assumption about the diffrence in % is the amount of damage amps sub has

so the team probably assumes subtlety gets way more output because of more amps

however, i don't think thats the case in reality ^^

[worthy escarp]

Would you guys say it’s best to hold cds for first adds on gallywix ? 🙏

[vale pine]

its just like they did buff subtlety to still be behind the other 2 specs, because of the assumption

that the lower player base adds at least 5-10% dps

[plush roost]

To pad ye

[hazy breach]

If your only goal is to pad as much as possible

If your goal is to kill the boss then you would absolutely not hold

[vale pine]

turns out, another 5% would make subtlety quite competitive

the majority of top logs pads on adds

[worthy escarp]

So if we are progressing you suggest me to just send it

[vale pine]

so its probably best for logging

i looked at it the other day

[hazy breach]

Yes holding would be absolute grief

During prog

Youre giving up boss damage to do more damage to adds that dont matter

[vale pine]

yes, adds are rarely a problem

[plush roost]

Especially since you can miss a cast on boss if kill timer is weird

[vale pine]

unless your raid team has big issues dealing with adds

[worthy escarp]

Yes we got a balance and ele shaman that slaps also

[plush roost]

You're holding for like 30 seconds or so

[runic trail]

Though if your raid is somehow struggling on adds, then hold probably.

[vale pine]

in which case you might have a reason to hold

[runic trail]

(They shouldn't be but, it happens I guess)

[worthy escarp]

We did not actually

[vestal escarp]

And that says a lot already

[worthy escarp]

We just did it for like 10 pulls to feel p1 out

[vestal escarp]

Since due to supercharger and inevitably we overlap some Symbols alaready

[hazy breach]

The literal only reason to hold on pull is to look better on logs, its not better in any way

[runic trail]

For me, we had classes that just annihilated adds, so I ignored them when it came to cooldown timings.

[worthy escarp]

Ye seems like we don’t lack any aoe

[hazy breach]

Well deathstalker has more time inbetween so its fine, but ye

[worthy escarp]

So I’ll keep sending it on pull

[hazy breach]

The tier set not pandemicing is fun

[vestal escarp]

Never ever i would have guessed as "increased sod duration" being a good set bonus for sub

🤐 🤐 🤐 🤐 🤐

[hazy breach]

Well its not a good set bonus

Its like half the power of the trickster one

[surreal glacier]

yo does sub still have that weird downtime

i rememeber it had a part where youd just like

autoattack

for a while

returning player after a bit of a break btw^

[short radish]

r1 log on sprocket

[vestal escarp]

!cds

[wicked jolt]

Cooldown Use:
Every 90 seconds you want to cast Flagellation and subsequently Shadow Blades. When these two are up you always want cast 2 Symbols of Death, 2 Shadow Dances and 2 Secret Techniques.
To ensure you have enough cooldown reduction on your Shadow Dance to attain that you need atleast 1 charge and roughly 40 seconds left on your second charge before casting Flagellation.

[swift tinsel]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[surreal glacier]

ah tysm <3333

[hollow spear]

Does the sim do some holding for coup or does it full send?

[swift tinsel]

tldr it do be like that sometimes

[hazy breach]

Wdym exactly

It doesnt send coup if its <20s left of flag

But otherwise it just sends

[hollow spear]

That's what I meant. I guess that condition was already implemented without having double coup?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[bronze hatch]

devs are afraid to buff sub bc when sub is strong, sub deletes entire phases before other classes finish ramping :x

[hollow spear]

Sub isn't even weak rn

[graceful osprey]

Aside from the outliers specs I think sub is decent. Most specs are fairly close right now I believe

[runic trail]

Yeah, they're all close, dev and marks are just pulling ahead a bit

[fallow nimbus]

Wtf

[short radish]

This is what the peak sub rogue form looks like, and there ain't a thing you can do about it.

[runic trail]

Okay Brann in delves as subtlety makes me hate the little fucker even more

Hit shadowdance, brann runs off to narnia and the mob follows

[hazy breach]

Yep

[runic trail]

Need to find a way to root brann in place

[vale pine]

a option to dissable bran would be nice

but

[runic trail]

An option to tell him to stand still, also nice

[swift tinsel]

like a Move To, Stay function like pets

[runic trail]

Or let me replace him with a health potion dispensing robot that I can just... place down

[proven plover]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[charred sandal]

how far behind is deathstalker rn?

[alpine wraith]

a bit

but likely tier sets get rebalanced

[tepid trellis]

correct answer is, not far enough

[vale pine]

[alpine wraith]

they will make SoD do 100% inc

see it is a 18% set then say our job here is done

[round latch]

which meaaaaans ds actually viable right?

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

kind of yes

its not significantly behind, just has more trade offs

and plays worse

[hollow spear]

Plays much worse imo

Even in single target and that's the best case scenario

[fading elk]

anyone know if its a bug that the starter build goes trickster and takes So Tricky, but it doesnt take Tricks of the Trade in the class tree

[round latch]

developed the DSM syndrome,might suck to play around but my mazochism is a thing

[charred sandal]

but it looks cool doesnt it

[tepid trellis]

what looks lmao?

[charred sandal]

this dude with the dagger

[keen dome]

it is a cool purple dagger

[runic trail]

Don't corrupt gestalt like this

[keen dome]

Look, it has a cool purple mark and a cool icon with a purple dagger

But it plays like trash! It's not cool or purple enough

(Plus I get to play it as Assa)

[charred sandal]

real

[runic trail]

Whats the main issue with it as sub? Obviously target swapping is a thing but I assume its because of darkest night and sectec?

[hazy breach]

Target swapping doesnt matter much as you dance often

Its a bit annoying because darkest night sometimes delays your sectechs n stuff

But the main thing is that the aoe gameplay is stinky

Since darkest night is awful in aoe

The best way to play is to actively try to not proc it

And if you get it cancelaura it

[keen dome]

Ye, it's so weird and awkward.

[runic trail]

I didn't think about dance and swapping the mark, but having to cancel aura it is.... ouch.

One of the reasons I looked to having sub as an option was to escape deathstalkers so, legit never looked into it as sub.

[keen dome]

Out of interest - Eleem, if they made it so SecTec could pop DN, would that go a decent way to solving the friction? I've not put any thought into it and am curious

Trickster is so cozy as Sub, too

[hazy breach]

Well then you would likely need DN for sectech so meh

But another issue is that you get less cdr since no trickster

[keen dome]

ye, the cdr is the thing I always, immediately notice when I mess about on DS and it sucks

[round latch]

kinda got used to it while playing my horde rogue

in pvp most subbies went with trickster still but i was ds all the way

[brittle plinth]

Would be a rogue buff

Can't have that

[brittle plinth]

Having marginal changes between st and aoe is hella cozy

[keen dome]

Ye

[swift tinsel]

Helps we don’t really have fleshed out aoe to compare to lol

Our “B or B+” baseline

[fading elk]

sorry i keep coming back to this same thing lol. is there some variant of this diagram i can look at for aoe? i was trying this out but was messing up with shadow dance cause the build i have takes the first dance talent and it wasnt lining up like this

[chrome palm]

This is first pull in DFC

As you can see playing TFD can sometimes make 2nd sec tech a little awkward

[fading elk]

yeah i felt that when practicing on the dummy

[chrome palm]

Its inconsistent, depends on your shadowcraft & unseen blade procs to some degree

[fading elk]

so the 2nd dance is just used at the very end to buff secret tech?

[chrome palm]

The 2nd dance is used immediately after the first dance

[fading elk]

right but it seems here that the outcome of that is just a buffed tech

[chrome palm]

I cheat a little and use this macro to make TFD a little less awkard

#showtooltip
/cast Cold Blood
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

This does not replace a regular Secret Technique button

I use that macro and a button with just Secret Technique

[fading elk]

yeah i have one for just cold blood and secret tech currently

[chrome palm]

You cannot press Shadow Dance or Stealth inside of Shadow Dance, so this macro is safe

This is just personal preference for me

I also use something similar for Eviscerate

I dont think most people do this though

[fading elk]

is it a big dps loss to just take the other talent?

master of shadows

[chrome palm]

No you never run that, you WOULD take Weaponmaster instead, but its a big loss against TFD

On any encounter < 4 min, TFD is generally ahead

I would recommend just getting comfortable with TFD

[fading elk]

ok another nooby question

whats the difference between cleave and council

[chrome palm]

Cleave implies add spawns, while council implies consistent 3+ tar

For subtlety there is no difference in build

[fading elk]

ok so cleave means low hp secondary targets

[vale pine]

no diffrence, wowhead just wants us to list both seperately

[fading elk]

oh ok

[vale pine]

so it is a requirement for each guide to list them ^^

[fading elk]

so you still press shadowstrike in aoe over shuriken?

oh only while flawless form is on i guess

ok so, shuriken storm once to apply find weakness, then shadowstrike with flawless form

[chrome palm]

storm only once

for find weakness, and then strike for unseen blade

[vale pine]

yes

[runic trail]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[fading elk]

i have another question lol... (Sorry), wondering about the sequence i highlighted in the image, is this always consistent with the shadowcraft allowing the 2 finishers in the same spot? some of my earlier notes show the double finisher was on the other side of shadowstrike, is it RNG dependant where it lands?

well not RNG i should say, i just mean, can it vary depending on shadowcraft

[lucid jackal]

It varies yes

U can get a weakaura that tracks shadowcraft stacks

That way you can react to the procs

[fading elk]

ok maybe im not understanding something fundamental here, the shadowcraft talent says secret technique stores 1 additional combo point, where does it say secret technique stores any combo points to begin with?

[alpine wraith]

it is shadow techniques

it is a passive that gets you cp

[fading elk]

theres so much to keep track of lol

thanks

[lucid jackal]

Secret technique and shadow technique are different things

U are overthinking the spec a lot I feel

[fading elk]

oh i see i misread the talent

the names are so similar

[fading elk]

understanding the sequence is a big thing

thats what most of my questions are about

[lucid jackal]

Cd's are basically do your flag/blades at proper sequences and then

Strike to generate, evis to finish

Shadowcraft will "randomly" proc thru these cd windows

[runic trail]

In terms of advanced stuff/straying from default rules, what should I be looking to add in?

[lucid jackal]

The only really fancy rule is like, you can SC coup when sectec is at 15 seconds, rather than the default 10

And then backstab is your first generator (not global) in your dance windows if the target has fw up already. If they don't, you don't bother. It's only worth backstabbing as Ur first generator. As a second it's bad

And then anything else is gonna be fight specific

Like oab for example, rather than using Ur Cd's on cd, saving a dance/sod to help with reel assistants

Or moving stuff around for barrel spawns on Rik

[runic trail]

Yeah, at the moment I'm in the, 'I feel comfortable enough on target dummy' phase, I just need to start taking it into raids to get a feel for it proper.

I just didn't want to go into a raid and play like absolute shite, so I waited until I felt comfortable.

[lucid jackal]

The fancy fight specific stuff mostly doesn't matter at this point cuz the raid is so deep into farm, there's no tight checks u need to help with

[runic trail]

Its more just trying to get a better feel/understanding of how it plays and how to optimise at the moment.

And we're on reclears now so, its a good time to fuck around with it

[lucid jackal]

I would only start getting cute with moving sod/dance around when u have a good understanding of the spec because if you fuck around moving Cd's too much Ur gonna brick Ur actual Cd's and deal 0 damage

[runic trail]

Yeah, still a bit of a way off yet I think for me.

But I want to hopefully be comfortable enough to use it on some prog fights in s3

[brittle plinth]

Greed and sub rarely work out

[lilac stag]

It’s closer to 5. Also any fight with movement or if you’re pressing storm will favor TFD.

[quaint lodge]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[short radish]

!guy

[tribal blade]

!guy

bot's broken

[brittle plinth]

Dungeon Finder needs a filter for "has shaman"

[hazy breach]

Premade group filter lets you add that stuff if you want

[brittle plinth]

??!

really?

[charred sandal]

yes

[brittle plinth]

thanks!

working that board haha

[tribal blade]

it's so much fun queueing for title range keys

[brittle plinth]

I mean that is sparse

but its really about the same at the 12-14 range if you count the fact no one wants me haha

[tribal blade]

it's been more dead this week

super dead this week in general

[brittle plinth]

VERY

[north schooner]

it is funny to see people going for meta comps in 10-15 ranges yes

[brittle plinth]

I need one 13 I think

for 3k

and I just cant get it going

I think

[north schooner]

rogue is queue simulator unless you have a standard group

[brittle plinth]

Ya having a standard grp would be nice

ill have my own 13 key this tuesday

which may help

[hazy breach]

Cant be applying to the veng+disc groups, gotta find the brewmasters or resto shamans

Theyre way more likely to let you in

[brittle plinth]

Soon as I see meta classes, I dont even apply

I know a no when I see it haha

[north schooner]

that's most groups

[tribal blade]

my favorite is not being able to queue to half the groups because they'll have boomy+udk+disc

and then you're SoL

[north schooner]

it's also a player-created issue for the most part, because people metaslave so much that they will pick a meta spec even if they are poor at it

[brittle plinth]

fk

[lilac stag]

Dude it’s not fun to Queue in any range.

[tribal blade]

truee

[wild hornet]

On mythic gally, when you're on the TikTok canisters to enter p2 (when the pile of adds and the lazers are about to spawn), at what point do you send flag to hit cb sectec on the big add pile. I'm not sure at which point it aligns

I mean do you start CDs at the beginning or the end of the TikTok canisters

[sterile kiln]

I usually send CDs when there's like 4s on the timer for the intermission
and cb+sectec lines up with adds

[main vortex]

Soooo close!

[tribal blade]

@hazy breach @plush roost is this normal hps for a hpal in a 19 priory?

[vestal escarp]

did you die of healing?

[tribal blade]

the tank is dying on 1st boss

but also feel super unhealthy all the time

every time i've run with a hpal it doesn't feel great

[vestal escarp]

it probably isnt then

[tribal blade]

he also let me drop on the reflective shield on the miniboss

another attempt i had to just walk out of melee during a shield so i wouldn't die

[vale pine]

druid tanks dying is uncommon ^^

[tribal blade]

i hear the 1st boss is really hard for tanks besides vdh 😦

[round latch]

depends but normally no,should be around double that

(yes im playing hpally but mostly pvp)

[vale pine]

possible

[tribal blade]

def possible 😉

[vale pine]

i know druid tank can be quite unkillable if he stacks up on defensives

[vestal escarp]

tanks buster hits hard and has like 20 or 30s cd

[vale pine]

but tanks typically balance out offensive and defensive

[round latch]

hpal pressing wings+AM should be enough,sacs and bop/swap to dev aura its a miniwall

i havent played THIS high keys though

but the healing looks def to the low side

[upbeat garden]

If u still neeed key for 3k rating I have 15 resil on my druid

[plush roost]

Hpal hps is very reactive afaik and its not very good with constant rot on the tank. Also guardian definitely has its issues with the fight, forrest usually has a spot where he says "im dry here" and gets a Burins or something. I dont run with many hpals tho, just Immotality for friend keys

And on prio 19 you 100% slow dps on shield especially shiv/lingering windows

That will kill you without evasion/cloak ongod

[tribal blade]

yeah very true

i got better about it, being very careful during shields

[plush roost]

Assuming you're assa, if you're sub ig dry shadowdance wont nuke u

[tribal blade]

yeah i'm playing sin

i just started leaving out globals here and there during shields if i had nothing for em

[plush roost]

Ye, or reup bleeds during that time

[tribal blade]

oh good point

[plush roost]

Or be gigachad and use cds with cloak to break it fast hehe

[tribal blade]

yes i do this too 😉

[willow pollen]

i only know that jpc curses at elle sometimes when they do high keys

cause he as the uh dk with the hpal its casino if jpc survives or not

[tribal blade]

haha

[tranquil fog]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[round latch]

depends on hero talent tree and what pala is spec'd into as well

e.g hpallies can be spec'd into merciful auras and passively heal

or spec into bos and be more bursty

there is also a problem with herald vs Lightsmith healing

lightsmith has the shields and spothealing herald is a bit weird

[tribal blade]

i take back most of what i said, thinking back the hps wasn't an issue

i think i just saw lowish number and thought that could be causing issues

[plush roost]

Yeah there isn't actually a lot of damage going out constantly on dailcry like a swampface

Just bursty spots

With pounce, pulse, tank bleed

[tribal blade]

yeah exactly, and reactive healing style will be different hps to high throughput healers

you know i enjoy these chats in here

[lilac stag]

@tribal blade did you have any luck in LFG? Or was it like that all night?

[tribal blade]

i tried 19 FG for a bunch of attempts, then 19 priory for a bunch

but besides those 2 not really getting invited to much haha

a lot of invites i get are from people i know

trying to play as well as possible and being nice to people goes a long way haha

[willow pollen]

next season is fated season ye?

do we also know when next season will be released?

[sacred yarrow]

next season as in 11.2 or..?

[willow pollen]

i guess?

[sacred yarrow]

well then 11.2 is new zone and new raid! i imagine a fated season will be the last bit before midnight hits

If you want to learn more, check here. Spoilers inside, obviously
||Ghosts of K'aresh||

[willow pollen]

man fuck me, classic fried my brain so hard xD

ty for the information

[sly shore]

there won't be a fated season

housing is midnight pre-patch

[tribal blade]

what if i don't want a house

[sly shore]

unlucky

[tribal blade]

but an apartment

somewhere in the city

[sly shore]

11.2.7 is likely legion remix

[tribal blade]

maybe a penthouse??

hopefully legion remix brings back artifact weapons

[runic trail]

I want a house, I'm gonna get so many cats

[tribal blade]

catgirls*

fixed it for you

[runic trail]

This isn't final fantasy

[void ocean]

did they rly write autumn 😄

[runic trail]

No miqote in my wow, keep them out

[warm marlin]

honestly more excited for housing than i expect

[sly shore]

yes

[runic trail]

The correct way to write it

[void ocean]

I know but

some might not get it 😄

[sly shore]

I'd hope most grown adults would know what autumn means

[void ocean]

The Fall Guys 😄

[sly shore]

especially in the context of the timeline

it says autumn but that doesn't come between summer and winter!

I can't work it out

[keen dome]

I imagine a longer S3 'cos of Remix and expansion launch, but ye no fated.

Feburary for Midnight is my bet

[short radish]

isnt it one of the paladin blessings

[round latch]

Fried squid with lemon,rice+lettuce/carrot salad

glass of white wine

[sly shore]

yuck

squid

[round latch]

its like onion rings

not the entire squid

[frail skiff]

what spec works best with 1 button rotation?xd

[sly shore]

I am not a big seafood enjoyer

[round latch]

[short radish]

not sub xd

[sly shore]

crustaceans are the insects of the sea

[frail skiff]

figured that out bro

xd

it uses shadow dance on cd

[round latch]

true,i dont like crabs and shrimps

[frail skiff]

but i like sub the most :/

[short radish]

then just gotta learn to play it

[round latch]

if u wanna learn rogue in general,u cant 1 button roation

its criminal

when it comes to sub even more

coz u need to plan ahead/set up

well not crazy set up but be rdy

[frail skiff]

rogue is generally hard to play

i feel like

one of the hardest classes

[round latch]

yeah prolly the hardest

[keen dome]

I'll take three

[frail skiff]

but the animation and sound of attacks are so cool i dont wanna play other class 😛

[short radish]

gotta learn to play it then

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[short radish]

wowhead guide very good

[frail skiff]

cant open wowhead i used some icy veins guides

[round latch]

i like squid/kalamari fried coz its rly a summer food thing

easy to digest and not heavy as much as u eat

[vale pine]

all of them should have the same information

[runic trail]

Sub ain't too bad, you got this

[round latch]

thats how ive fallen in love,its 20 years,ive never left it

[frail skiff]

im thinking about crafting

i have

and this atm

i can craft this stabbers

iv gold

[round latch]

vers/mast stabber,put the embelishment on it as well

keep the hero track for OH

[frail skiff]

you think i should craft only MH one?

[round latch]

yeah

rogue doesnt rly gain much from OH

u can proceed on crafting other stuff

but u should take some time and read wowhead guide,will help

[frail skiff]

i cant open wowhead

but i use icyveins

[round latch]

should be fine as well

wowhead is more well presented if u ask me

[keen dome]

Ye, this is very good advice. Our OH is effectively a stat-stick (and should always be a dagger due to the speed) So you craft a MH and the OH can be w/e.

[round latch]

but the information is the same

[frail skiff]

is archon.gg good site?

shows bis gear like this so there are more options

[runic trail]

Ignore bis lists

Bis lists exist purely because sites want clicks

[frail skiff]

how do you gear then xd

[tribal blade]

it's not that great for figuring what gear you need

[runic trail]

Simming

[frail skiff]

how to sim it

im kinda new to wow

so

[tribal blade]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot

[frail skiff]

played 1-2 months of shadowlands and now maybe a month of current patch

[tribal blade]

its' gonna be a learning curve on how to sim yourself properly

[runic trail]

Install an add-on called simulation craft, it'll generate you a simc which you can then put into raidbots

Which prophet linked above

[tribal blade]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7pdOJS3d0M

no idea if this is a good video or not, but naguura is a good player

[frail skiff]

i see

[runic trail]

But yeah, to find gear I'll run droptimiser for things I might get, which highlights potential upgrades in the raid or m+, or top gear for things in my bags

Bis lists can be ignored

[tribal blade]

i'm watching the video to check, seems pretty newby friendly so far

[runic trail]

They exist because people still search 'X class bis list'

[frail skiff]

xd im bad

[runic trail]

Nah, you're low geared

[frail skiff]

yeah ill craft

some

gear

rn

dled simulation craft

lets go

[tribal blade]

you will gain some easy dps from replacing that haste ring

haste is a borderline useless stat for sub

[cobalt vector]

but my sht procs

[tribal blade]

the naguura video i linked seems pretty solid, would recommend watching that

[frail skiff]

i watcheds stream of some top sub rogue

he literally puts rupture on every trash mob

no way im putting in such efforts xd

[tribal blade]

it's a dps gain for sure if all the mobs will live long enough

[cobalt vector]

I mean pressing bp feels bad and pressing evis also feels bad out of cds

[tribal blade]

rupture does a lot of damage

[frail skiff]

btw prophet

[tribal blade]

yo

why do i feel like i'm about to get hit with the "i know someone who knows you"

[frail skiff]

nop wanted to ask

are these fine

found them on icyveins

since you sound like a knower

xdd

[tribal blade]

for M+ yes

even for raid it's fine tbh

[frail skiff]

kk

[tribal blade]

for raid you can swap out rotten for 1 point in finality

sims slightly higher for most people in ST

[frail skiff]

i only play LFR so its cool

[tribal blade]

also that build has The First Dance talented

which you can swap out for weaponmaster

right next to it

[warm marlin]

prophet is not a tfd believer

[frail skiff]

sec

[tribal blade]

if fights are going to be longish, like 4-5 mins+ (?)

[tribal blade]

haha i dunno how long fights take in lfr

but true next reclear i should run tfd sub

[cobalt vector]

I mean with obr they should be faster now right

[frail skiff]

weapon master is legit better

sounds better to me even

[tribal blade]

it would seem so, but not really

WM only really overtakes TFD when fights become long

and TFD very good in keys too

TFD you're basically extending your first dance in cds by 4 seconds

while you have max ramp going

it's pretty strong

[warm marlin]

prism in simc now, having to cook my own apl stuff but seems pretty close

was like 6k dps

[frail skiff]

whats ur mmr prophet

[warm marlin]

maybe worth it for big dmg amp bosses

[tribal blade]

i don't pvp 🙂

[frail skiff]

i mean

[tribal blade]

anymore at least

[frail skiff]

mythic mmr

[hazy breach]

Close to what

[frail skiff]

io

[warm marlin]

regular build we play this tier

[tribal blade]

i'm 3709 right now

just hit 3700 this week

[hazy breach]

I meant what other trinket

[cobalt vector]

gz

[warm marlin]

oh

[hazy breach]

Or what trinket are you comparing it to rather

[frail skiff]

wow nice isnt that amazing for sub

[warm marlin]

i just threw prism and pacemaker in

i meant PE build is close to normal build

[hazy breach]

Ah

[warm marlin]

the execute one doesnt work yet

[tribal blade]

i'm pushing as sin right now (i'm a traitor)

but i've historically only pushed as sub

just recently decided to not 1 trick

[frail skiff]

tbh im also considering swapping to sin its easier

for beggining

[tribal blade]

the fundamentals of sin are easier yeah

i would just warn you that playing with the deathstalker hero tree sucks BALLS

[frail skiff]

give me some epic talent tree for assasin

and ill try 1 run

see how it goes

with current gear idc

[tribal blade]

this is the high key build, wouldn't recommend for lower keys

[runic trail]

Run bleed build

[tribal blade]

this build is really good in lower keys

[runic trail]

A lot easier, good for lower keys

[runic trail]

This one, go for this one

[tribal blade]

i have iron wire talented there, you can swap it out for second shiv charge if you want

just whenever i'm running bleed build might as well take a small dps loss for WAY more control of packs

[plucky parrot]

Is there a world where sub ends up running double on use with prism since it’s first use is essentially useless

[sly shore]

maybe but some fights that push on % don't really matter much anyway

like nexus-king is kinda push to 50% or on a timer

so the value of pushing faster is probably not too valuable early

[plucky parrot]

yeah I was thinking if there's a world where you'd play like furnace + prism and alternate

[edgy reef]

Hey, So im a tank player and just trying to figure out how dmg profiles work kinda what the cds etc look like for sub. Currently we have a 2 outlaw rogues and a frost mage and trying to fix some of our problems dmg profile wise and was just wondering how sub works and looks.

Any insight is incredibly appreciated

[hazy breach]

Damage during 90s cds

Pretty much nothing outside of it

[edgy reef]

incredibly dmg inside of those cds then i hope? is it ST or aoe dmg for sub.

[warm marlin]

in such a world furnace on pull, prism at 90s, furnace at 180s, prism at 270s? i think its possible but unlikely, neither trinket has primary stat so you're essentially playing 1 trinket in your big on use burst windows

[frail skiff]

kk ill try it

[hazy breach]

In st yes, in aoe its unfortunately just pretty good, the burst that is

[tribal blade]

sub also has the added benefit of being able to shift around damage during fights to account for timings

[edgy reef]

and then omega useless outside of those 90s windows? thats kinda unforch but can prolly work around that tho

[tribal blade]

literally tank damage yes

[edgy reef]

ouft

aight thank you both @tribal blade @hazy breach much appreciated

[frail skiff]

thing about sub i dont like the most is i cant spam 1 button xd its very very very bad

[blissful crow]

is sub gonna be best spec for raid in s3?

[frail skiff]

and mythic i hope

[tribal blade]

oh the 1 button rotation?

yeah it's pretty bad for sub

[frail skiff]

yeah i play with it 😛

[blissful crow]

alas assas isnt, i dont care :D

[tribal blade]

it would be a fun and challenging adventure to learn the spec without 1 button 😉

[plucky parrot]

yeah that's what I was thinking but igwym re: the lack of passive mainstat

furnace is also a bit weird where I'm not sure whether you'd CB early into your cds similar to what we did in amird with that on-use

[warm marlin]

maybe better if they fix the finality thing (they wont)

[surreal glacier]

my yearly thinking about respeccing to sub over assassination is here

im gonna try learning it again

i wont quit this time for sure

[frail skiff]

xddd

[surreal glacier]

LIKE WHY IS IT SO HARD WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS SPEC

people keep saying it's not much harder than sin

then riddle me this, why can i play sin well and not sub

[keen dome]

You've just gotta learn it's rules and it's really simple. Sub isn't hard, but it does have some complexities.

[surreal glacier]

like its 10 times harder than sin at least

its really hard to tell since sin is just muscle memory

but it feels that way

[frail skiff]

isnt this like better ?

[runic trail]

If you learn your cooldown window you're 80% of the way there

[surreal glacier]

im tryingggggg

[runic trail]

You'll be fine, just spend some time on target dummies doing opener on repeat

It'll click

[tribal blade]

not for bleed build, you want x2 vanish and subterfuge for being able to spread more bleeds

[runic trail]

Feels clunky at first but yeah, it's all muscle memory for your burst window

[tribal blade]

it also extends your master assassin (talent in the spec tree) length

[frail skiff]

ah aight

[tribal blade]

subterfuge also gives you a 6 second grace period to apply your mark as deathstalker

[frail skiff]

gotta spread bleeds

x.x

[tribal blade]

so if you get pulled out of stealth you're not screwed like with the other build

[tribal blade]

honestly don't tab target, just pump all your bleeds into your primary target

that'll be more consistent as a beginner

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/boomer-alert-speaker-alarm-gif-15124610

[frail skiff]

aight

[tribal blade]

let the talent spread itself

[frail skiff]

kk ill play some sin

crafting MH weapon vers/mastery regardless

[tribal blade]

vers isn't bad for sin

[surreal glacier]

[tribal blade]

so it's good for both

[frail skiff]

are these important?

[runic trail]

Yes

[frail skiff]

missive obviously is

[runic trail]

You get the thing that lets you boost the ilvl up

Very important

I forget what it's called

Crests? Might be crests? I might also be having an aneurysm who knows

[short radish]

because you need to learn to sit down and think for more than 2 seconds before deciding whether to dance or not

unironically sin probably has a lower skill floor but higher skill cap

sub is opposite

[bronze turret]

it's funny that outlaw (which already had the best animations) is getting more updates to animations while sub is complete ass in that regard

[hazy breach]

From what i can tell holding the prism doesnt seem worth. Loses about 1.5% or so in my tests

[brittle plinth]

If you're around 9pm est, I'd 100% be down.

[runic trail]

Yeah but sometimes I have the uncontrollable urge to hit buttons

[short radish]

average fury warrior enjoyer

[surreal glacier]

im studying it rn

it looks fun

[runic trail]

Most of the time I behave myself

[short radish]

just remember

[runic trail]

But occasionally the need takes over

[short radish]

20-25 seconds before flag? don't press dance

that solves like

90% of your hodling problems

[runic trail]

I play it as 30 to be safe

[short radish]

yeah

youre better off wasting 10 seconds of cdr on dance

than doing a flaccid 1 dance burst

[runic trail]

Also because whenever I spec sub all shamans instantly fuck off to the shadow realm

I crave the windfury

[hazy breach]

Spymaster/prism spike goes craaaaazy if you hold

(which doesnt seem worth it on average, better to send with 90s)

[surreal glacier]

these will be relevant when I actually figure the cooldowns out

combo points storing is kinda scary ngl

[tribal blade]

yeah sub's cd timings are way more complicated than use DM every 2 mins and rip KB as soon as it comes up between lol

[runic trail]

Flag -> rupture -> dance/symbols -> shadow blade -> sectec into shadowstrikes evis. Refresh dance when it ends, reapply symbols and cold blood the second sectec

That's the basics, no need for stuff like backstab danse macabre things

Just, keep it simple and go from there

[surreal glacier]

as far as i can tell i just unbind shiv entirely for the rotation

[runic trail]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[lilac stag]

We’re calling blindside procs a skillcap?

[vernal hull]

You take shiv in your tree as sub?

[runic trail]

That's got a screenshot of what your cd window should look like

[hazy breach]

If you need to dispel an enrage yes, otherwise no

[short radish]

well you got more dot management

so there's a skill cap there

and when to overwrite etc

for all the hodling that you have to do with sub

it's relatively straight forward in sending

[tribal blade]

imagine if there becomes a world in which you press shiv between coup procs to help build CPs faster and not waste UB procs

[lilac stag]

it’s way easier to figure out when to reapply one extra dot with a WA

[hollow spear]

Did you sim double on use by chance?

[lilac stag]

than any of the sub CD management

raid assa is an envenom simulator. That’s it

[hollow spear]

Goremaw +50k

[plush roost]

Idk man I've seen some high io assa mains play sub in rookery and it leads me to believe the skillcap is not quite equal

[vernal hull]

Personally attacked

[short radish]

yeah because the skill floor is higher for sub

[short radish]

i dunno im just really shit at dot management

krill issue or osmething

[lilac stag]

that doesn’t mean the skill ceiling is higher for assa

[tribal blade]

maybe it's an aussie thing, he's upside down so the ceiling is on the floor

[short radish]

MAINTAINING DOTS IS HARD OKAY

[tribal blade]

heehee

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/brent-my-hero-aus-top-guy-gif-17971844794065873200

[tribal blade]

crikey m8!

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/australia-austrlain-all-good-bruv-all-g-gif-26064268

[plush roost]

I mean tbh, having the foresight on something like the end of rookery last boss, to know if you can wedge a dance on the shield and be okay on cdr while also having 14 stacks of shadow techniques and coup ready to go is pretty high skill cap

[hazy breach]

Ye doesnt seem worth it at all

[plush roost]

Yeah rotationally its not hard, but yknow, more to spec decisions and skill than rotation

Just my 2cents

[short radish]

ye true

[hazy breach]

Which is why i think stuff like backstab for danse or shuriken for fw is not the way to go for sub. I think the hard part should be in the cd decisions not in micro minmaxes like that

[tribal blade]

would be sick if we couldn't backstab in dance anymore

[hollow spear]

I'd be down

[plush roost]

I mean micro minmaxes are fine right? Idm backstab being a gain, or using finality rupture as your first finisher in dance being an optimization

[plush roost]

(that was season 2 df my beloved gloomblade simulator)

[hazy breach]

Lily is the standard 90s trinket and ritual forge is the 2 min one

[plush roost]

Spymasters being bis is great cause any holding situations just get better

[hollow spear]

Oh boy, lily really is quite understatted

[tribal blade]

that could be a way they buff sub, give us gloomblade baseline

[plush roost]

Praise the prism

[hazy breach]

Not that much, it just has most of its power in the passive stats whereas the others have most in the on-use

HoC is only like +0.5%

[hollow spear]

They should also just fix gloomblade. Afaik it still keeps the positional requirement.

[hazy breach]

(at the same ilvl)

[tribal blade]

yep it's stupid

[hollow spear]

Yeah, but we already considered HoC as not so great

It was just the only available option

Or let's say

Trinkets in s2 weren't great

[hazy breach]

Ye because its mostly a passive trinket with a small on-use

Forge and prism are big on-uses with small passives

[hollow spear]

Yeah goes well with our profile

[hazy breach]

Which is obviously way better for bongoburst

[hollow spear]

We are bongoburst, the spec

Despite people in here claiming our burst sucks

[short radish]

can you compare this to mythic HoC?

[naive mantle]

isnt burst the only thing the spec has

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[hollow spear]

Yeap

[brittle plinth]

Whoa whoa

[short radish]

oh

[brittle plinth]

We have good times and good feels

[short radish]

thanks

[brittle plinth]

And epic dooming

[hollow spear]

Did you want ilvl to ilvl or current mythic hoc, fimbul?

[surreal glacier]

aren't you guys concerned when i learn sub you wont be to parse 100 anymore

[naive mantle]

im already parsing greys cant get much worse

[vernal hull]

No

[hollow spear]

I'd just lose to someone else then

[surreal glacier]

[short radish]

[surreal glacier]

at least its green

[lilac stag]

We care more about grey parsing in here

[tribal blade]

dude you don't know the level of unbelievable sweatlords (not me) that play this spec

in raid

[fringe palm]

have you heard of your saviour 1 button rotation

[hollow spear]

Preach!

You sweat your ass off, pat yourself on the back

[short radish]

i hope assi is strong again so all the good rogues continue to play it and i can parse higher as sub

[lilac stag]

Outlaw tier bruh

[tribal blade]

haha i'm kinda hoping sub will be competitive

i know it won't happen in M+

[lilac stag]

just for the new killing spree animation

[hollow spear]

84 parse

[short radish]

nah with assi getting 90 second burst

[tribal blade]

unless they decide to giga juice sub for no reason out of nowhere

[short radish]

theres 0 shot sub is competitive unless it does 8% more damage

[lilac stag]

but my burst!

[fringe palm]

sub is stronger right now on ptr so its 100% better frfr

[hollow spear]

I mean balance is completely shite rn anyways

[tribal blade]

i hear the fatebound 90s build sucks atm

[short radish]

good

delete 90 second assi

holy shit

[hollow spear]

Some specs do almost double the dps of others

[tribal blade]

blizz didn't think it through

[lilac stag]

fatebounds only role in life is to brick cold blood on sub

[short radish]

can they not get every single rogue spec niche

[tribal blade]

on how fatebound sin layers everything together

[surreal glacier]

i used to be one until season 3 of dragonflight, now im retired 👴

[tribal blade]

but they only reduced the cd of DM and KB

which krangles everything else

[short radish]

ecks dee

[hollow spear]

I wonder if some of the crazy op specs can actually be fixed without completely redoing their tier set

Because some things cannot be tweaked by just changing the tier set's numbers around

[lilac stag]

aura nerfs

[fringe palm]

-30% enhance treatment fixes everything

[runic trail]

That's the best bit, you can't send cooldowns every 90 seconds as it works now

[hollow spear]

Yah but they usually don't like it if tier sets are too much of a specs power budget in comparison

Happened to us this season

Tier nerfs, aura buffs

(I chose to forget the sectec nerf, don't mention it)

[lilac stag]

well the tier nerfs happened here.

The aura buff was too little too late

[tribal blade]

how do you even tune the sub 4 set

[lilac stag]

make DS great

[tribal blade]

unless you tweak the dmg the 2nd coup does

[hollow spear]

300% coup damage

And then you lose the 2nd coop

[hazy breach]

Last boss has a 200% damage amp and we have spymasters

Sub can be last place in ST bosses and still be good for that boss

[tribal blade]

yeah we're gonna BLAST OFF on last boss

it's a 15 sec dmg amp right?

[hazy breach]

Yes sir

[surreal glacier]

wow i love being irrelevant for an entire raid

[hollow spear]

Unfortunately it seems to be at 4min, no?

Omega holding

[tribal blade]

so enough for 2nd dance to mostly make it in

tight

[lilac stag]

Don’t play rogue. Problem solves itself.

[fringe palm]

might even see yourself on details if you reset before the dmg amp

[surreal glacier]

rogue for life

[tribal blade]

my guildie who kept begging for rides on tindral gonna be in shambles

[lilac stag]

than enjoy irrelevancy

[hollow spear]

Isn't there another boss with a damage amp?

[fringe palm]

4th boss

its at 3min aswell

[hollow spear]

[tribal blade]

nutnutnut

[short radish]

is it timer based or % based

[fringe palm]

timer

[short radish]

oh nice

[fringe palm]

you can early push but wont happen on prog

[hollow spear]

Stop typing

[short radish]

i know penultimate boss we pushed omega early because lol mythic gear in normal

[hollow spear]

I can only get so erect

[fringe palm]

has another one towards the end though and also execute phase that you might lust

[short radish]

and we got to it at like 2:450

[fringe palm]

second to last boss also has dmg amp

[hollow spear]

We don't care about lust

So

[short radish]

actually

i wonder if lust has more value now

because of how much haste it provides

making it easier to get back to back coup

[tepid trellis]

prolly about the same

[hollow spear]

Should have a little more value maybe, because the current set doesn't really interact beside giving more dmg

But I can't see it doing much/pushing haste above the other three at any point

[swift tinsel]

If the set gave thousand cuts an increased chance to reset I could maybe see it giving more value

Bc isn’t it a ppm system

[tepid trellis]

until they actually bake in a haste scaling for us besides auto attacks

it will just always be meh

[swift tinsel]

Ye

[tepid trellis]

rppm+haste

[short radish]

haste reduces cdr of dance

[swift tinsel]

Ah, nvm so there is a little nudge from it

[fringe palm]

how about dance gets reasonable cdr from the talent that gives it cdr in the first place

[tepid trellis]

an easy way to not make haste "shit"

is to have a talent that just converts it into mastery xD

[swift tinsel]

Reforging but make it a talent Kekw

[void ocean]

Lets not get hasty

[tepid trellis]

nah cant have that sorry, (ive been asking for that since amirdrassil)

[swift tinsel]

Shrimply not possible

[brittle plinth]

Lol

[fringe palm]

5% haste = extra sectec clone

[tepid trellis]

i saw the cdr nerf in amirdrassil

[tribal blade]

imagine if we got reduced gcds in dance with haste

[tepid trellis]

and said after this tierset is gone, we need a buff to it

[vale pine]

to be fair assassiantion is not terrible with haste

[tepid trellis]

otherwise its gonna become not great

[brittle plinth]

Would just have a talent that makes haste stat mimic mastery at some decreased %

[tepid trellis]

well they get something from it

we dont

[vale pine]

exactly ^^

[tribal blade]

i suggested that idea to realz around the time of the big sub rework

and he said it was "lazy"

[tepid trellis]

venomous wounds, more poison ticks which then turns into higher envenoms etc

[brittle plinth]

Lazy?

[vale pine]

think this leads to issues

[tribal blade]

it would cause haste breakpoints for sure

[vale pine]

like needing certain haste points to fit in more casts

[tribal blade]

yeah exactly!

[fringe palm]

whoever works on rogue the last couple tiers is lazy

[tribal blade]

big true

[lilac stag]

thinking someone is working on rogue.

[fringe palm]

someone has to come up with the one patchnotes line that changes blind or something per cycle 🙂

[brittle plinth]

The question is whether CDR is part of our spec design or an afterthought

[tepid trellis]

i honestly think it just comes down to rogue not being high on their prio list compared to other classes

[brittle plinth]

It gets treated like a bandaid and not necessarily a feature

[fringe palm]

yeah i know, just sucks for everyone playing rogue

[swift tinsel]

Not being *on their prio list

[tribal blade]

i think the tide turns at some point like it did for shammy

but no saying when that happens

[fringe palm]

its very obvious which classes are prioritized

[tepid trellis]

gotta get that 104th SP rework in there in the last 3 years

[brittle plinth]

It is a void xpac

[tepid trellis]

its honestly laughable

[runic trail]

My cooked idea is a talent that gives haste some level of CDR but there are probably horrible implications to that that I'm too dumb to think of

[short radish]

also gotta make sure both mages and warlocks have 2 viable specs

[lilac stag]

CDR just needs a tweak. Not a haste rework

[tepid trellis]

im fine with sub disliking haste

[vale pine]

tbh shadow priest was reworked initially because one of the devs rly loved the spec

[tepid trellis]

takes me out of the PI conversations

[fringe palm]

i dont even mind the shadow changes, the class really has a ton of issues. its just unproportionate if you compare rogue with some other classes even if its reasonable because of player numbers or whatever

[runic trail]

I was just thinking it'd give haste value without changing damage profile

[haughty mural]

Or just give us the ww bandaid regarding haste

[vale pine]

subtlety has diffrent problems worth adressing

[runic trail]

Dunno I said my idea was cooked

[tribal blade]

best part about sub not caring about lust is you don't need to pay attention to lust timings

[brittle plinth]

Spriest has a very strong following and considering healing priests have it as a dps spec, the playerbase is there too

[patent lichen]

I even tell my raid I don't want lust, but they never listen

[lilac stag]

Applying value to haste isn’t going to fix the root issues sub has. If anything it likely introduces more.

[tepid trellis]

sub would feel infinitely better if they just upped deepening shadows to 0.7-0.8 sec per cp

[lilac stag]

play sub as DS and you see all the shit trickster is bandaiding

[brittle plinth]

I don't recall from your midxpac article but if you were to make 1-2 minor changes, what would they be (not a flat DMG obvs)?

[tepid trellis]

and it wouldnt change the dmg much (in single target)

[fringe palm]

not having dance and symbols with every sectec naturally is criminal

[vale pine]

it depends how far you want to go

there are a lot of qol changes wich can be done quickly

[haughty mural]

💯

[vale pine]

^

[tribal blade]

i remember how big an impact it felt when we caught our deepening nerf

i still feel it today

[vale pine]

like the one stealthi mentioned

[tepid trellis]

the fact that solo symbols exists hurts my soul

[brittle plinth]

I mean, ignoring system quirkiness so we can't assess work properly, just quick wins

Ya like that one

[vale pine]

cdr is just too tight

small downtimes cause desyncs and you have little wiggle room

it makes the spec very punishing

and this is another topic

if you are highly punishing

[brittle plinth]

If we had better cp gen out of CDs, we could push cdr better. Just my thought.

[vale pine]

the damage trade off needs to be there

why would anyone play the spec if its worse than a diffrent spec

which can do the same output or more

and often brings additional perks

e.g. this is why assassiantion is played almost exclusively in TWW and you don't see sub/outlaw much

[runic trail]

The lack of raid utility is an issue, it'd be nice to have something

[short radish]

careful you'll summon guy saying that

[runic trail]

Atrophic not working on everything is

[short radish]

atrophic stacks though

[tepid trellis]

well as long as atro exists people will 100% believe that we are mandatory

[fringe palm]

this and also that changing cloak to a 2min cd ams would be a buff