subtlety

[runic trail]

Yup.

[brittle plinth]

Amazing

[tribal blade]

their idea for fatebound was monumentally dumb

[wheat edge]

yeah one big problem is that cold blood CD doesnt start before you consume the 2 crits it gives

[lilac stag]

@swift tinsel where’s my razguy recap?

[swift tinsel]

Stuff with cold blood kingsbane death mark and vanish not playing well into the 90sec

[tribal blade]

i get they were excited about it, but sub is already the rogue 1.5 min spec

gtfo

[swift tinsel]

He stayed out this time lmao

[runic trail]

It's just... Why have a hero talent that shits itself in aoe so you can't use it in m+ or most raid bosses

[lilac stag]

so it’s only good when rwf raiders aren’t here?

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I don’t get how a talent that actively does less damage with any more than one target went live

[tribal blade]

they gave themselves a difficult problem

it's very hard to suddenly shift around cd timings on a spec that layers so many things together in cds

[runic trail]

And how it remained that way through 2 seasons

[swift tinsel]

Esp when the feedback was there from day one

But that’s how it goes

They have their own plans (supposedly lol)

[tribal blade]

but yeah this is classic blizz trying to screw sub over again by giving the other spec what we have

[wheat edge]

and its not only 1 talent.. its 2 talents that nerf themselves!!!!!

[tribal blade]

keeps happening /cry

[swift tinsel]

Wait there’s more than one 😂

Ahahahahaha

[keen dome]

someday they'll give us shadow form

[tribal blade]

one day 🙂

[keen dome]

Priests lose it, we gain it

[wheat edge]

lovely design

[swift tinsel]

How

[tribal blade]

it's so funny how fatebound is hilariously behind ds in aoe for sin

[swift tinsel]

The fuck

Does that happen

😂😂😂

[wheat edge]

I mean theres always like uhhh 1? PURE st encounter!!

[winter python]

Cold Blood, and making things awkward to play.

Classic combo

[tribal blade]

the further along we go in tww the more we see how problematic the rogue hero trees are

[runic trail]

And even then I didn't swap because of not being able to guarantee the capstone

[tribal blade]

the new tier sets compound the problems

sadly

[runic trail]

And like, nah

[swift tinsel]

Why make it about tuning when you can make it about fundamentally doing less damage

Peak design

3 Michelin stars

[wheat edge]

especially love when there are situations like Mugzee, where there are immune or mobs that you dont attack

but they make you do less damage to boss

[swift tinsel]

[hazy breach]

I dont really think its that deep. Its just something cool for fatebound that could make it compete by doing something different than DS

Its also borrowed power and not permanent

Not to mention subs burst is still way bigger

[brittle plinth]

What's cosmic dmg

[tribal blade]

fair enough

i just saw 1.5 min cd spec and was like BUT SUB

[swift tinsel]

I think it counts as all kinds

[tribal blade]

yeah iirc cosmic dmg is any magic school

[swift tinsel]

All magic types plus phys iirc

[tepid trellis]

Arcane. holy, nature, shadow

[swift tinsel]

Ah that’s right chaos is the one that’s all of them

[brittle plinth]

They sure Pokemon-ing this

But no resistances

[swift tinsel]

Was gonna say aren’t spell resists no longer a thing, but armor is

[tribal blade]

dude i remember back in the day playing my ele sham in bgs

casting a full lightning bolt onto a nelf

and they fully resist

[swift tinsel]

Just gem spellpen ez

[tribal blade]

and then i cry

the day they remove parry from raid bosses we rejoice

well maybe not us specifically right now lol

[swift tinsel]

Remove parry, remove armor mitigation from pve enemies

[alpine wraith]

you had a meta gem that had chance to reflect spells

much fun was had

[brittle plinth]

Time walking shadowpan right now, parry stance

[swift tinsel]

Lemme reforge the haste off my transmitter real quick plz

[brittle plinth]

What an awful idea lol

[tribal blade]

not sure if reforging was a good or bad thing

it did create the issue of everyone needing on everything because you could reforge it

[swift tinsel]

It was bad before because it had to contend with expertise and hit rating

So ReforgeLite or similar addons were almost required

[tribal blade]

yeah back when you needed those addons to calculate your hit and expertise rating reforging lol

[swift tinsel]

But the capacity to turn a percentage of an undesirable stat into a desirable one is pretty cool

[tribal blade]

maybe they could bring it back in a reduced capacity

[swift tinsel]

Now that haste breakpoints largely disappeared too it’s more conducive imo

It was only like 40% of a stat that got converted so it’s not fundamentally anything crazy

[tribal blade]

it was a good feeling to get a piece of loot with shit stats and know you could reforge it to be less bad

if you played as a casual it was such a nice system

[swift tinsel]

For sure, I could see the value of getting extra vers for super high key pushing too

[tribal blade]

i leaned into that more with my sin M+ set

i now have 21% vers with vers flask

[swift tinsel]

Heck yeah, nice

[tribal blade]

i figured running vers flask over chaos is better

because these keys generally aren't bricked to damage

it's deaths

[swift tinsel]

For sure, yeah

[tribal blade]

i did a 19 priory today where we had like.. i think 8 deaths

and were only like 1.5 mins over i think

so 6 deaths is 1.5 mins right there, on top of the damage loss from running back and stuff

i can already forsee 19 priory is gonna be another struggle to get like it was on 18

[vocal wolf]

The triple HoC Pacemaker stack xd

[tribal blade]

haha yeah true

[swift tinsel]

Man I don’t even remember the last key I ran on my rogue, def been a month or two

I feel like I should at least get 3k this season but idk if I’m feeling it. Only have like 450-500 rating to go so I might know it out this next week

[tribal blade]

should be chill to get (i assume)

you can do a LOT of heavy lifting as a dps in that bracket

[swift tinsel]

Yeah, even getting to 2.5k was mostly cruise control and with turbo boost and resilient keys I’m not too terribly worried. We have a few guildies that are still doing 12-13’s for weekly’s and alt crests so those should mostly get me there

I’m just not a big key guy in general tho

[tribal blade]

nice!

dw you'll do great 🙂

[swift tinsel]

Thanks 😄 plus I know if I run with them they like when I play sub so I don’t have to worry about a spec I don’t enjoy just to get keys

[tribal blade]

a big plus is you can time all keys very comfortably with any spec in 12-13s

[brittle plinth]

Reforging was awesome

[twilit phoenix]

Reforging was based

[vale pine]

reforging was complicated

[lilac stag]

so is sub rogue

Yet it’s still here

[hollow spear]

Them maybe doing something about cold blood might make it a tad easier to use between flags, even though we obviously don't suffer from the same kind of issue as fatebound sin does

[brittle plinth]

I feel like cb being the way it is goes back to rogue pvp

If it cd started at cast and not use, we would just line it up for dbl send

[potent jay]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[north schooner]

CB is a relic of the past at this point. Why does it even work with builders? And they could easily allow for sub to use it once between blades if its cd was reduced by 5-10 seconds somewhere

[swift tinsel]

Or it makes Sectech auto crit in blades , and for other specs it can do something similar

The other two trees with fatebound, the only time they take it, have it locked to a certain ability

[fallow nimbus]

Reforging was complicated because of hit and expertise. Without these 2 it would just give players freedom and make shit items worth it

Imagine we could convert some of the transmitter haste into something better

[swift tinsel]

That’s what I’m saying lol

It’s not gonna make or break anything but it adds that little buffer

[north schooner]

it's easier to just make haste somewhat desirable rather than (re-)introducing a system

[swift tinsel]

I mean yeah, that’d be ideal

[north schooner]

say you have 10 specs with dead stats, give them a reason to exist even if it's through a passive or talent

[swift tinsel]

Tbf with how they add bits and bobs in mini patches I’d be less surprised if they added reforging over new talents to make dead stats relevant

[fallow nimbus]

That needs work and reforging is just there waiting

[swift tinsel]

As has been discussed plenty of times, some trees just don’t get looked at

[north schooner]

i dunno reforging was a bandaid fix to a problem that is more or less solved now. It sucks for the few specs with dead stats or breakpoints

[swift tinsel]

I don’t think it would be necessary by any means or to fix any specific problems, would just be a nice QoL thing

[north schooner]

and for the specs with breakpoints you'd go back to needing an addon to make the choices for you

[swift tinsel]

Are there any besides outlaw with haste?

[north schooner]

no idea

[swift tinsel]

For any stat breakpoint, not just haste

Afaik it’s the only one

[north schooner]

I know prot warrior needs to get enough haste to maintain SB but that's a bit more fluid

[vale pine]

Sockets work in a similar way and don't make peoples brain explode

[shrewd lantern]

They need quite alot to not play the talent that gives them shield block

[north schooner]

sockets carry a very small amount of stats comparatively. Even if you get all 9 slots with the same gem you'd get +~1300 on a specific stat and +~400 on another

[swift tinsel]

Sockets lose value over the course of an expansion because the stats they offer end up a drop in a stat bucket vs 40% of the native stat on an item

[shrewd lantern]

unless they update gems

doubt

[north schooner]

epic gems are back

[honest grail]

Guys uhh

Backstab in dance is purely for danse macabre right?

Like if I send danse symbols SS by mistake do I still have to backstab at some point or

[north schooner]

you don't stab if you don't have premeditation active anymore

[honest grail]

I see

[north schooner]

but the dps difference between stab or not stab is like 0,6%

[honest grail]

I'll take any increase I can

Though I guess I shouldn't feel too bad if I fuck it up

[north schooner]

of course, it's just not the end of the world if you sometimes don't

[honest grail]

Got it

[brittle plinth]

But if they fixed rotten and shurikan storm that would smooth that out even more.

(not st)

[north schooner]

I did test that on PTR and it was still broken as of the latest build

[swift tinsel]

Yeah no new bugfixes in the latest build

[lucid jackal]

This set is gonna be a movie for rogue

Tuning isn't there yet but the vibes are immaculate

[swift tinsel]

The cdr feels good bc it’s noticeable but not excessive

And prepping double coup dances is a win gameplay wise

The set opens some cool doors

Minus the quirks of the 2pc, no notes

[brittle plinth]

I recall seeing a player pop chart somewhere, and rogue was second lowest after evoker

[brittle plinth]

What's the quirks?

[swift tinsel]

The resets can be kinda stinky

[vale pine]

thats popularity

rogue is the least popular class after evoker

[left ledge]

They got the feedback they asked for so hopefully they do something about the 2p

[keen dome]

🙏

I'm real excited for S3. Cool set, cool setting, cool raid, cool trinkets.

[lucid jackal]

Yeah rogue play rate is low

[swift tinsel]

Fixed 4pc after a week, maybe we see new 2pc next week

[keen dome]

Hell yeah, such good news to see them fix it so early on the cycle.

[tepid trellis]

doubt any functionality changes is happening

[swift tinsel]

My dream would be one major bugfix a week for the next couple weeks and we’re stylin

[tepid trellis]

all you will see is numbers change

[keen dome]

And then in Midnight we become the Shadowlord Spec (they give us Shadow Form from Spriest)

[tepid trellis]

nah SP needs its 104th rework in 4 years

so no can do

[keen dome]

Hence giving it to us, duh

[swift tinsel]

Is true, they’re already getting one this patch so they gotta start the streak again

[tepid trellis]

they get one every patch

[swift tinsel]

Idk, I can’t see them raising the reset % at all and if they lower it by even a moderate amount it’s basically indistinguishable from thousand cuts

[brittle plinth]

I think there is lore pressure to have spriest doing well this season too, so expect continued focus on them.

We just need to spin the story that we are void-lite

[keen dome]

Sub Rogue is the most Etheral adjacent spec in the game

[swift tinsel]

“Since it’s something sub rogues actually want, we’re going to double down on not doing it” - Blizz, probably

[keen dome]

I was fully expecting rogue legendary this expansion

I'm glad to be wrong, haha

[runic trail]

we get the cloak! (Just ignore every other class)

[keen dome]

TRUE

[brittle plinth]

We got a ring s1, then a belt S2 and now a cloak. Sub rogue is loved!

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[brittle plinth]

Also fuck that ring, still can't get rid of it

[keen dome]

I finally did a few weeks ago

[lusty epoch]

does nimble flurry cleave from my character or my target?

[swift tinsel]

Iirc the last time I checked it was you

Would need to double check, it’s been a minute

[hazy breach]

Its from the player

[lusty epoch]

yeah i found some dummies, it's from the player idd

can be good to know that nimble flurry cleave from character but secret technique from target

[runic trail]

How would that work on Gally then, given his gigantic hitbox?

[lusty epoch]

i think you have to use ST on one of the adds

not on gally

to maximize damage

dunno if there's a radius from the center of the target or from the hitbox, i guess center of target

so even if the hitbox is huge, it only hit adds that are close to the center of the boss

[hazy breach]

Its just kinda random depending on the mob

But yes if you sectech gally it will not hit the adds in the later phases

[runic trail]

Good to know, thanks!

[clever delta]

fuck this tier set

get me to S3 already

[void hound]

dmg amp starts at 4 minutes

[spiral sierra]

silly question (hopfully not) is a sword offhand bad? (working on making a dagger of equal level atm)

[hazy breach]

Yes

[spiral sierra]

kk guess ill grab a bad dagger for now xD

[hazy breach]

Typically a lvl 1 dagger is better than/equal to a sword

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[spiral sierra]

i see ty

[brittle plinth]

Easy solution dont use sectech

[swift tinsel]

Diff effect homie

Good luck not using shadow technique

Through /stopattack all things are possible

[brittle plinth]

Can't be wrong if I can't read

[swift tinsel]

Damn got me there

[north schooner]

I just reject the welfare combo points by spending them on snd

[hardy galleon]

when im using dance/symbols as minor CDs without flagellation/shadowblades, should i always try to get 2 secret techs into each dance/symbols window?

[upbeat sorrel]

has anyone done PTR testing?

hows sub doing

[hazy breach]

You cant

So no

[charred sandal]

[vale pine]

subtlety is fine, not outstanding but fine

[hollow spear]

tuning questions cannot be answered at this point anyways

[tepid trellis]

i can answer them

they just wont be accurate xD

[sacred yarrow]

sort of what they deserve

[hollow spear]

subtlety will be top melee spec by a country mile

[jade urchin]

cant wait for having 2 weeks in the spotlight just to be outscaled once people get some gear

[keen dome]

Just make sure to steal all their gear

Then nobody can outshine us.

[hollow spear]

I think that anomaly won't happen twice

[jade urchin]

will use week1 logs to bribe LC

[hollow spear]

this tier we don't have something like transmitter

heroic hoc was a 1 - 1,5% damage increase vs mythic transmitter, crazy

[hazy breach]

Fairly sure it was still equal to mythic transmitter at 658

In sims

[hollow spear]

yeah

heroic was better

[jade urchin]

speaks for itself that transmitter is still the 2nd best trinket rn

[hollow spear]

still crazy

[hazy breach]

Well heroic is 658 too

[hollow spear]

no?

[hazy breach]

first weeks yes

[hollow spear]

ah yeah

even though you were probably upgrading that first if you werent pushing mythic hard

[hazy breach]

Big stat pieces were more worth to upgrade

[hollow spear]

cant remember tho, took me an eternity to get heroic hoc

[chrome palm]

Problem with new trinket is that much of its power comes from its damage proc compared to the actual stats it gives you

[hazy breach]

What

Its literally the opposite

Assuming youre talking about prism

[hollow spear]

are we talking about melee spymaster?

[chrome palm]

Compared to transmitter? Absolutely

[hollow spear]

it's just generally very big

you get a comparably high damage proc

[viscid jungle]

I've noticed a lot of rogues seem to switch to sub for mythic gally, does anyone know why that would be? or have opinions on the best spec to run for the fight?

[chrome palm]

It does a lot of damage, but the primary isn’t even available for your opener

[hollow spear]

and you get like 30k or so every 90s

yeah, opener sure

[jade urchin]

sub cds feel fun on gallywix cause u can bomba adds

[hollow spear]

but every burst afterwards sits at like 30-35k mainstat

[chrome palm]

Opener is a pretty big part especially when fights get shorter

[jade urchin]

but doesnt really matter

[hazy breach]

Idk does it

Isnt it like 2-3%

[hollow spear]

thought it was 4%

[chrome palm]

3% for a stat trinket is pretty good

[hollow spear]

but that's all dummy testing

[hazy breach]

Well agility passively is 6-7%

[hollow spear]

probably less in an actual fight

[chrome palm]

In raid it was doing that

[hollow spear]

I feel like the damage push at 4 min isn't even that cursed - we can send a flag at 1.30 and have a fully stacked prism for damage amp

[chrome palm]

I mean transmitter by comparison had haste and did nothing but the stat use, I’m just saying prism is definitely relatively less powerful for its actual on use effect

[hollow spear]

I feel like the damage on use is kinda really high

[hazy breach]

Yesnt, transmitter had haste still included in the budget

So it doesnt really matter

[hollow spear]

stat values on trinket seem to not scale that crazy

how much did you get from mythic transmitter every 90s?

[chrome palm]

Like 17k pre nerf?

Or was it 20

[jade urchin]

i have 15k ish in my mind

[hazy breach]

15k is after nerf, so should be like 17k

But thats for 15s, with the minigame

[hollow spear]

yeah, the minigame cost you like 1-2s on average I feel like

[chrome palm]

I’m not sure if you’re able to fit third sec tech in the 20s window

But maybe that doesn’t matter as much with new tier

[hazy breach]

Well youll fit your coups

[hollow spear]

17k for 15s and a minigame, vs. 30k for 20s and no damage amp for first burst

and more flexibility in case you have to hold

[jade urchin]

we still gonna go trickster most likely with current ptr stuff?

or is ds coming closer

[hollow spear]

ds is in the dumpster

[jade urchin]

W

[hollow spear]

where it belongs

[jade urchin]

just wait for the next black powder buff

ds big stonks

[chrome palm]

If they do it again we press Bp in st

And never sec tech in aoe

[hollow spear]

which translates to

not even the diehard sub rogues will play sub

[jade urchin]

imagine being outblasted by the random reroller that only bps tho

how depressing would that be

[upper narwhal]

If they do that Sub would die and they might need to actually fix the hero talents

[hazy breach]

It wouldnt be because its not simply storm > bp

You have to actively strike other targets that doesnt have mark when youre at 1 stack of your marks

To not proc darkest night

and get more clear the witnesses

[upper narwhal]

Goated design btw

so good

[hazy breach]

And if you get shadowcraft refunds

Literally cancelaura darkest night

(during dances)

[jade urchin]

no way

[hazy breach]

Last i checked it was like +1.2% in sims

[upper narwhal]

Surely it will get changed this expansion

[hazy breach]

Since the mark damage doesnt work when darkest night is up (a bug)

[hollow spear]

cancelaura capstone

holy jesus

[vale pine]

cancleaura is cursed

[chrome palm]

Bricked hero talent the whole expansion

[upper narwhal]

Capstone? The talent that nerfs us in AoE is a capstone?

Surely not

[hazy breach]

But thats on big aoe

[hollow spear]

has to be cap

[upper narwhal]

Surely that would get fixed in beta

[hazy breach]

On 4 targets you would still evis

[jade urchin]

[hazy breach]

Ok i lied it was evis with DN even at 5 targets

[upper narwhal]

Sending a pure ST finisher in AoE is good design actually

[hazy breach]

Clear the witnesses does more than DN does

At like 7 or something

[hollow spear]

gotta be some crown witnesses

[hazy breach]

Its obviously a design issue, but the bug thats making DN not buff shadowed finishers doesnt help either

Since its effectively only ~42% more damage, not 60%

[hollow spear]

they'd have to do some much about DS to be actually fun for sub

I'd rather have them work on trickster

[runic trail]

[north schooner]

can't wait for midnight to bring all those bugfixes and redesign of hero tree jank ( )

[chrome palm]

DS isn’t even fun for sin

It’s just plain bad

[upper narwhal]

DS is the worst designed hero talent in the game imo

[runic trail]

They actually meant midnight on January 1st 2030 sorry miscommunication

[runic trail]

Fatebound says hi

[hazy breach]

Besides the mark being stuck on a target you cant swap its fine for sin

If it just swapped with every mutilate or some shit it would be fine

[hollow spear]

in aoe it's actually decent

[upper narwhal]

At least FB is not unfun, just boring

[runic trail]

FB also shoots itself in the face the second there's an add present

So, there's also that

[upper narwhal]

Yeah FB nerfing it's self in AoE while DS buffs it's self in AoE is a choice for sure

[runic trail]

Also not being guaranteed capstone so on rare fights its just... WELL, OKAY THEN

[hollow spear]

I am not sure why they designed it that way

[chrome palm]

Besides death stalkers mark death stalker is fine for sin

[hollow spear]

most raid fights have adds and M+ is one big add fiesta

[hazy breach]

I mean besides moving it, which you dont really need to do that often

[runic trail]

I didn't even run it on sprocket because of not being guaranteed the capstone

[hollow spear]

I think I ran it on kyveza for the luls

[runic trail]

My opinion on the hero talent soured a bunch following silken court prog.

[hazy breach]

Just like i think trickster is fine except nimble flurry

[runic trail]

Because god damn was that hero talent annoying on court.

[hollow spear]

red side was annoying on court

[runic trail]

Just sat there not able to hit a finisher because I need to swap the mark in about 10 seconds.

[runic trail]

I was red side on webs

My raid leader has it out for me

[upper narwhal]

The issue is that when you do need to move the mark, it becomes a big problem what with Assa already being one of the worst swapping specs

[hollow spear]

same

unga bunga ret pallys got to afk on blue

[hazy breach]

When you dont have vanish ye

[runic trail]

Less of an issue now that VV is the go to instead of MA

[hazy breach]

Ig my point is that its easily fixable

[runic trail]

So there's at least vanish available to play with

[hazy breach]

They just dont seem to want to

[runic trail]

Put mark on rogue, problem may be solved.

[chrome palm]

And then they design 2nd boss in eco dome

[upper narwhal]

That's what bugs me, it's such an easy fix but they refuse to fix it

[runic trail]

(It probably won't be solved there are probably bad implications)

[hazy breach]

Whereas for sub its cursed either way

[upper narwhal]

Are there any other hero talents that add to the friction of playing a class like DS does?

[runic trail]

The solution is to swap trickster to sin and fatebound to us. Clearly.

(Blizz don't do it I swear to god)

That'd be the worst timeline.

[chrome palm]

Totemic and the dh glaive one maybe but I don’t think they come close

Doesn’t help they don’t run subterfuge in m+ anymore

[brittle plinth]

Sub gameplay needs outlaw level rng

Don't @ me

[chrome palm]

UB in blades is enough rng for me

[hazy breach]

For some reason the on-use from halls of atonement is just massively better than the one from the dome dungeon, both have 90s cd

8258 mastery for 15s
OR
13382 crit for 15s, with some extremly minor damage and the possibility of getting an additional 3k crit if you hit more targets

Ptr tuning

[brittle plinth]

We already at diminishing for mastery going into s3 right?

[steel zinc]

Oh wow.

[steel zinc]

You are already rn

Your at 10% Dr

[brittle plinth]

Do the soft caps go up with season?

My first season

[steel zinc]

There is no real cap

Just a dr on stats

Download true stats addon

[hazy breach]

It literally doesnt matter anyway

Just sim

[steel zinc]

Yup

[brittle plinth]

What do you think a soft cap is

"is this an apple?"
"There is no such thing as an apple, there are varieties of apples"

Still dont know if it's an apple lol.

[hazy breach]

The softcaps exists yes

But theres no need to do anything about them since theyre already accounted for in sims

[vale pine]

its stat dr not softcaps

the word cap means you only get insignificant value after hitting a certain point

which just isn't the case

its also why eleem and others mention to sim

its a flawed mental model where you aim for certain stat values, which hasn't been the case for a long time

(i know its still common practice on certain specs that tell you "you need 33% haste or not play" or similar)

[warm marlin]

Outlaw receiving a hard stat cap with tww

[hollow spear]

I'm still confused about this whole soft cap thing

I know how DR as a concept works

But I could swear someone here said that stat just give less value

At a certain point

[vale pine]

Caps basically are magic numbers people found in sims

e.g. the sim starts to prefere mastery/vers at this % of crit

so this specific crit % is the cap

[hollow spear]

So there's no specific cutoff where one absolute point of crit gives less percentage points

[vale pine]

now

[hollow spear]

It's just dr

[vale pine]

this was not enough, because people wanted more details

so they started to do "soft cap"

[hollow spear]

Who is they

[north schooner]

the illuminati

[vale pine]

other classes

a lot of it is due to haste

basically haste makes the gcd go down for most classes

[hollow spear]

Our haste soft cap is 0

[vale pine]

because we have a static cdr

*gcd

but lets talk about it logically

[hollow spear]

Yeah I get it, that was a joke

[warm marlin]

If you go back far enough in wow’s history, there are also breakpoints for haste where things like dots tick one extra time

[vale pine]

these caps are still weird, because they assume a lot of ideals

[hollow spear]

Yeah yeah

But what about my question 😅

[vale pine]

basically, the soft cap is where you in a sim would assume

[hollow spear]

It just scales linearly?

And the rest is how any dr would work

[vale pine]

to not get one more cast of a certain spell or sequence in

[warm marlin]

You do actually receive less % per point past a certain point yes

[vale pine]

but the reality is diffrent

it was a bigger topic in legion everyone seemingly has dementia about after the xpac

[hollow spear]

Okay, so there's an actual "soft cap" then on top of the usual DR

Which gets accounted for in sims of course

[vale pine]

because reality is, that it often made sense to go over the so said cap due to human error, lag or other non ideal factors

[north schooner]

well the DR is defined by blizzard and it's the same for all specs

[hollow spear]

I still like to know what's "under the hood" sometimes

No

[vale pine]

also these caps potentially change if you play your rotation diffrently

[hollow spear]

DR is a mathematical thing

[vale pine]

DR did not exist in legion, caps did

[hollow spear]

Wdym

DR always exists

[vale pine]

well stats had no dr

no

[hollow spear]

If one value goes up

Another one becomes more beneficial

Until it overtakes

[vale pine]

like think of BfA

[north schooner]

blizzard applies a penalty to the secondary stat gains past a point. Say if you have 22k mastery, all mastery past that provides x0.9 mastery

[warm marlin]

Ya but the actual dimished return of receiving less % mastery per point of mastery was not a thing in legion

[vale pine]

corruption was so absurd because we had no stat dr

[hollow spear]

Yeah but that's artificial dr

[vale pine]

blizz did not want to have a corruption situation repeat

[hollow spear]

Natural dr is you getting less out of each additional point

[vale pine]

thats why they added the dr system

[hollow spear]

Just how percentages work

This whole nomenclature is super wishy washy in wow

Or in the wow community

[vale pine]

you talk about something diffrent

which is more how stats scale

[north schooner]

I don't even know what he's talking about anymore tbh

[vale pine]

let me explain

[hollow spear]

ing marginal returns, refers to a point where the additional output from increasing one input factor in a production process, while keeping other factors constant, will eventually decrease. In simpler terms, you get less benefit from each additional unit of effort or investment as you increase it beyond a certain point.

[vale pine]

if you do 1 more dps per stat point

getting 1 point will always give you 1 more

yet your argument is

"but i do 1 more damage baseline, so the % gain is lower"

[hollow spear]

Yes and that's the definition of dr

Dunno why we have to make it so convoluted

[vale pine]

but what we talked about is

the DR we got on top of this

so to use the same example

you would get only 0.5 dps per point

after getting 10 points

and after 20 0.25

after 30 0.125

...

this is entirely diffrent with a higher impact

[hollow spear]

Yeah, but to me it's kinda unhelpful if we put all of that in the same bucket

Because DR is a thing even without Blizzard meddling with it

[vale pine]

the former is less significant in impact

[hollow spear]

And that's what a lot of people don't understand

[warm marlin]

if you already have 50% mastery, gaining 1% more mastery at the same rate is only a 1.51/1.5 gain = 0.66% damage gain. If you instead invested in getting 1% vers (assuming you “buy” it at the same rate), you increase 1.5 itself by 1%, so 1.515, or a 1.01% gain, thus even if you gain the same amount of % you have dred yourself naturally a bit

[vale pine]

it is why we talk about the later

keep in mind you might also get more stats per gear

depending on how the gear scaling curve with stats is designed

so in a sense, you adding "natural dr" to the conversation, seemed mostly to confuse people rather than provide meaningful additions

If someone talks about stat dr, they don't talk about relative stat gains.

[brittle plinth]

Now this is a response. Follow up: does the value at which the diminshing returns start increase season to season?

[north schooner]

it is level based

so it shouldn't

[vale pine]

Its rating based to my knowledge

[north schooner]

technically it's % based but that changes the rating based on your level

[hazy breach]

Well its 30% of a stat but in rating form, so its roughly 21k at max level right now

Where every point above that is -10%

[vale pine]

reference: wowhead article

[north schooner]

yeah so the rating brackets won't change until we can level again. Also those penalties only apply to gains from rating

otherwise some specs would get fucked

[chrome palm]

theres an on use from halls?

oh new loot i see

that is busted

[hazy breach]

Unlikely to go live like that

[north schooner]

is that up to 16k on top of the 13k?

[hazy breach]

Its not 13+16k no

Its 13k + extra, upto a max of 16k

[north schooner]

that gives it max crit at 3.6 targets which is weird

[chrome palm]

that looks crazy for fatebound sin

[hazy breach]

Well otherwise its 19.7, which is also weird

[hollow spear]

what does "channel" mean?

[hazy breach]

Numbers just doesnt make any sense and its gonna get tuned

[hazy breach]

Stand still and cast usually

[hollow spear]

hm

kinda lame for sub, no?

basically wasting a second of your dance

[north schooner]

yup

[hazy breach]

Depends on how it is

Like if its offgcd like some things have been in the past

But either way its like a 40% stronger house of cards so its still pretty good, probably not enough to outvalue spymaster unless fights are really short

[sly shore]

is rogue like

undertuned on ptr

or is it mega bugged

[bleak night]

https://tenor.com/view/big-trouble-if-i-speak-if-i-speak-i-am-in-big-trouble-speak-big-gif-23519858

[north schooner]

https://tenor.com/view/this-is-fine-fire-house-burning-okay-gif-5263684

[brittle plinth]

We are the best class on the ptr

(If you don't play any other classes)

[north schooner]

unless playing no class is better

[hollow spear]

we're kinda 5 weeks early to complain about class balance

[north schooner]

you need to start early to get the front seats

[hazy breach]

Our tier bonuses are kinda meh

Whereas some has absolute bonker tiers so

[north schooner]

also some specs are surely positively bugged right?

[hazy breach]

Hopefully they dont let the tier set tuning sit until 1 week before release but you never know

[hollow spear]

they should do one broad stroke balance tuning earlier

and finetune later

because rn it's obviously completely out of whack

[warm marlin]

They did already lay the groundwork to tune the 4p with the “100% of normal damage”

but increasing it and thereby increasing the value of each combo point for that coup means you really want the second coup to be high cp

Gl not overcapping

[hazy breach]

Ye im aware, but its like the least interesting way of doing it

[plush roost]

Could also always tune flawless form by .5-1% per stack to make the tier set better

Rogue not lookin very hot tho ngl fellas

[warm marlin]

I reserve judgement until later in the ptr

[brittle plinth]

Imagine I was dumb and 5, what's this mean

[warm marlin]

The tier set reads “for 5 seconds after casting coup, you can recast it for 100% of normal damage”

So basically it does the same damage

But the fact they wrote that instead of just “you can recast coup” suggests maybe they will increase that number to 125% or something

[warm marlin]

I also think sub is a bit hard to yolo in without prep work and I saw some sussy stuff on logs

Idk am hopeful

[brittle plinth]

So the follow up coup could be buffed or nerfed as needed

[warm marlin]

true, would think “50% extra benefits” would be cooler or something but doubt that happens

[brittle plinth]

Devs worry a lot about sub accidently being great, when did sub hurt them lol

[hazy breach]

+1 or +2 cp is roughly the same as +15%/30% more interesting for example

[hazy breach]

Ye especially if we get some adjustment to the 2p

Unfortunate that we only get one tier set when some other classes get 2, but what can you do

[warm marlin]

IMO 2p is kind of fine if they fix the escalating stacks thing

But

[hazy breach]

Btw for the 2p

The resets work when you get the procs from disorienting strikes right

[hollow spear]

If we end up being behind, I wouldn't even be surprised about some uninspired aura buff to the spec

[north schooner]

I wouldn't expect that it does. DS charges seem to act on their own

[warm marlin]

it seemed that way but I wasn’t looking too closely

[north schooner]

#outlaw message

this implies that they don't

[ebon tiger]

Basically target dummied Forgeweaver Araz normal and was a few spots above the tank. I might just take the 401k approach and just not look at PTR for a while

[hazy breach]

well no

It implies the 2p wont give you more disorienting strikes

The question i was asking was if the baseline can be reset with disorienting strikes (i probably wasnt very clear), which i think it can, but its hard to test without a bunch of data

[hollow spear]

Wdym with baseline?

[warm marlin]

ya kinda hard to test when a reset could be thousand cuts or 2p

[north schooner]

what I understood from your question is whether DS procs can proc the 30% reset on the plain UB

[hollow spear]

I think Haptic said he had two resets in a row

[warm marlin]

The 2p can proc off itself

I had 4 go off in a row

[north schooner]

it is doable by "abusing" the fact that specials can hit at a wider angle than autos

so you can attack a dummy at an angle that only specials land

[hazy breach]

Ye but i dont think the realz post definitively answers it

[warm marlin]

My week vacation starts today so someone else will have to be the ptr guinea pig

[hollow spear]

I'll be on a business trip the whole week

Won't be me

[north schooner]

I can test it and see how it functions. 30% is a pretty high chance so it shouldn't take too long

[hazy breach]

I made some focus macros to not proc thousand cuts and it definitely can proc of the free strikes

[swift tinsel]

same, when I was testing it without thousand cuts talented they were

[warm marlin]

ya it seemed like they were

[swift tinsel]

and there's no icd on resets

so idk how it would be 'unrelated'

[warm marlin]

Not that it super mattered since a lot of disorienting ubs were over capped anyway

[hazy breach]

As in, backstab > backstab (without a proc) > sectech > backstab > backstab > backstab (get proc)

[swift tinsel]

just seemed like a flat 30% off any ub to me

[hazy breach]

ye

[north schooner]

tested on a dummy without Thousand Cuts and I can see 3 procs following a SecTec, the 3rd being 11.2s from the first "normal" UB proc. So yeah any proc can reset the cd

[swift tinsel]

it is a nice lil touch that the 2nd coup benefits from the form stacks from the first

lil baby bump

[swift tinsel]

the fun times are when it does this without disorienting guaranteeing two of them

since the resets can proc resets

[north schooner]

the fun times is that you have no idea if it's on CD or not because of the lovely implementation they really need to consider changing the stacking/cap rules regardless of whether we ever get a proper tracking aura for it though

[swift tinsel]

yeah, would be very nice qol

instead of the 'surprise hey you got one and wasted it'

I'm thinking realz' message about the DS ones just means they don't restart the hidden cd of UB

[north schooner]

we can ask him when he shows up in 2 months I am not sure what he meant but the question wasn't super clear either

although to me the question seems exactly what eleem asked

[swift tinsel]

haven't seen him in here since october

he's avoiding us

[swift tinsel]

yeah which we've seen is contradictory to the answer he gave

bc it absolutely can reset from DS UB's

so idk

[north schooner]

I mean it could also be unintentional that it works like this, but honestly even if that's the case it will never get fixed

and imo it makes more sense if all UBs can reset it

[swift tinsel]

but poking around with it just now, I procced UB to start the 20sec cd, sectech and spent the 2 free ones and UB'd again 20sec after the first one

[north schooner]

since they don't even use separate spell ids for the normal ones and the ones from DS

[swift tinsel]

With no thousand talented

yeah

[lilac stag]

Fixing and RTB if it works/breaks on

[swift tinsel]

they're the 10.1.5 assassination of this ptr cycle

[hazy breach]

Initial scuffed sims seem to suggest the new set is actually pretty alright at like 17.5% compared to the 13% of our current tier (think the tier is working properly, but no new trinkets etc, so still very early)

17.5% relative to no tier at all that is

[tribal blade]

any idea how it's shaping up to be in aoe?

does needing to cast double coups kinda screw our BP dmg in dances

[hazy breach]

https://tenor.com/view/big-trouble-if-i-speak-if-i-speak-i-am-in-big-trouble-speak-big-gif-23519858

[lilac stag]

our base spec still in need of tuning. give us the 5% back you cowards.

[hazy breach]

Nah but its not that bad, its ahead on dslice but falls a bit short compared to the old tier in big aoe cleave

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/damn-you-skeletor-gif-11747628

[hazy breach]

DS tier wasnt working properly so dont have anything for that

But who cares about that anyway am i right?

[brittle plinth]

Give backstab dbl cp generation while they figure out a better fix.

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/dumping-trash-daniel-labelle-frustrated-garbage-trash-gif-27186872

[tribal blade]

TRUEEEE

it's kinda funny that a part of the DS tier is buffing DN

which is not a useful spell for sub in aoe

[swift tinsel]

I’m just gonna play it like season two and pretend ds doesn’t exist

[lilac stag]

until you’re forced to play assa

[swift tinsel]

Never forced

[tribal blade]

holy dead lfg

[idle aurora]

Two questions. Next tier set we really don’t have to play around it too much correct?

2 if I have like 24 second and no dance and not enough symbols do I just send a sec tec solo

[tribal blade]

seems like you might depending on how resets work and not wanting to waste UB procs, but not sure if it'll be something we play around

also there's some issues with trying to consume the 2nd coup within the time limit outside of dance

[tribal blade]

in aoe you absolutely can, not 100% sure about ST but iirc that's probably enough time to farm sectec back

from memory it'll be tight getting sectec back in time

[lilac stag]

Usually just hold. Not worth it.

[tribal blade]

yeah agreed

interesting

[north schooner]

missingno is after your stats

[fading elk]

coming back to wow after a while and im really trying to wrap my head around the cooldown management part of sub. it seems so crazy with effectively having 8 cooldowns (this includes charges) to keep track of. wanting to know if i have the right idea here, so outside of the opener, i wanna use flag symbols and shadow blades together always, use shadow dance and symbols on cd after dumping combo points, after using those to generate CB i dump them and vanish. is this about right? and do i always hold onto 1 charge of symbols? do i only use cold blood during the flag and shadow blade window or do i use it with every secret technique cast ever?

[lilac stag]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[lilac stag]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[chrome palm]

If you’re just coming back and youre leveling or questing or doing world content I’d recommend trying assassination

[tribal blade]

true if you play bleed in open world it's very simple and strong

[chrome palm]

Subtlety is frankly very annoying to level as or kill low health mobs

[tribal blade]

sub in open world is literally killing mobs in 1/4 of dance

and then having nothing to kill anything else

[fading elk]

actually i am already level 80

[chrome palm]

Try focusing on the symbols + dance basic sequence (backstab w/ premeditation, secret technique, shadow strike, eviscerate / coup de gras, etc) and then try to do two of those inside of flagellation and shadow blades

The guides cover how the sequence works and the important interacts

If you’re starting from scratch

[tribal blade]

main goals are to use x2 symbols, dance and sectec in flag+blades

and then get to your next cd go with enough to do it all over again

[chrome palm]

If you can do the shadow blades sequence well you could literally afk for 75s until it’s back up and you’d be doing like 80% of the damage

[fading elk]

is sub really that complicated or am i just having a boomer moment here

[tribal blade]

it's a lot to process initially

having so many cds to manage and all cding at different rates is not simple

but if you start breaking it down into how to get to your next cd set with enough charges and stuff it becomes better

pretty basic rule you can follow is stop sending everything ~30 seconds before your next cd set

[chrome palm]

It also helps if you think of shadow dance and symbols of death as rotational abilities instead of a “damage cooldown”

[fading elk]

alrighty, also i was wondering is there an addon that will duplicate the combo point bar but make it movable? id like to have it not just on my player frame

[swift tinsel]

there's a weakaura

if you like the circles

[chrome palm]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[chrome palm]

One of these class packs

Basically tracks all of your resources and cds

[void light]

so getting supercharged stacks with sod right, say its break in raid, i slam them on cd and get a billion stacks built up, with no resets are the stacks just sticking around to help give the bottom 25 seconds of your dont do shit before flag window some extra oomph i know it keeps charges pretty high but when you start a key no matter how many you have stored up it drops you to 2 stacks when the key starts so curious how it would work in raid

[swift tinsel]

https://wago.io/jW1lrFQzO

can remove the extra shadowcraft circles if you want, thats the one I put together

[chrome palm]

You have to download the weak auras add on if you don’t already

[swift tinsel]

they last until you use them if you're already in combat

but can only have 2 pre-combat

so if you wanna burn all your sod charges during some intermission or whatever you can, probably not recommended tho

[void light]

how positive are you it caps at 2 pre combat? because my wa keeps stacking them and is linked straight to the charged combo point condition

[swift tinsel]

if you have more than 2 it will reset to 2

[void light]

yeh so then on pull it just works like it would in keys pre pull

makes sense just wanted to be sure as im not in raid to test it out

[swift tinsel]

yep, its the same. so we pop sod after a wipe to get those two 'free' supercharged cp to start an encounter

[void light]

yeh damn, got real high and thought i just broke the game

[fading elk]

hmm so i want to make sure i have 2 charges of sod before going into flag sb

and sd

[chrome palm]

You want 1 charge and about 12s left on recharge

And 1 charge and about 34s left on recharge of shadow dance

[fading elk]

how will i do the 2nd shadow dance 11 seconds in with a 34s recharge

[chrome palm]

Because it’s cooldown is reduced per combo point expended

[fading elk]

oh it diesnt say that on the spell

[chrome palm]

It’s a talent in the subtlety tree somewhere in the middle

[fading elk]

ah

imo they really should add modifications to the spell description

but makes more sense now ty

[chrome palm]

Yeah some of the tooltips are very confused

Like the tooltip for secret technique is extremely vague about how it actually works

[fading elk]

also, does coup de grace not consume combo points? looks like they use that, then an evis right after

[lucid jackal]

It does

[chrome palm]

It does, but there’s a talent called shadow craft that refills combo points if you have enough of a resource called shadow techniques

[lucid jackal]

Shadowcraft is also a talent

[chrome palm]

While in symbols

[lucid jackal]

It sounds toxic but u should just read all Ur talents

Just to get an idea of what does what

[fading elk]

tbf i did read them, frankly im just too dumb to retain it all

i forgor

[chrome palm]

It’s a lot

For any class

[tribal blade]

coup does some wonky refund shenanigans

[chrome palm]

Speaking of awful tooltips

[fading elk]

ok so that part in the image where they do coup into evis, that will happen regardless of if you have coup right? instead it will just be evis evis?

[sullen hare]

Hey at least coup doesn't suction you into laser beams anymore

[fading elk]

is there a way to disabe the action bars counting down your CD buff timers? for example my shadow dance button on my bar counts down the 12 second buff before showing the actual cooldown

oh wait, thats not a buff duration thats a 2nd cooldown on top of the regular cooldown?

[idle aurora]

Thank you @tribal blade

[tribal blade]

i would usually just err on the side of caution and not send it

unless you know you need to delay your next cd set

[idle aurora]

Ok that’s good to know

Just trying to learn everything I think I’m making the leap to main sub next season from assassin I am just enjoying it so much more

[short radish]

based sub enjoyer

[fading elk]

coming back to ask a question about the cooldown diagram here, if im not mistaken, shadow blades shadow dance and symbols are all still up for a bit after the last secret tech in this, why doesnt it show what we should be doing all the way until the end of the buffs? isnt it still big damage boost time?

[north schooner]

because you just shadowstrike and eviscerate

[ornate heron]

why does saving cold blood for second secret tech do more damage?

[lucid jackal]

cuz ur flag is ramped

[ornate heron]

is it because your tier set will be stacked to 8?

ohhhh

okok

thank you

[tribal blade]

that too yes

[vale pine]

Because of stacks of flawless form. Flagellation also stacks up higher.

[tribal blade]

finally broke 3700

thank god

i don't feel like such a shitter anymore

[runic trail]

Congrats!

[tribal blade]

it was the most omega cursed 19 workshop ever

tank lost aggro in the pull after 1st boss and i got melee'd to death

RIGHT AS I POPPED DM AND KB

i was crying

[lilac stag]

They’ll crash out in 2-3 weeks.

[runic trail]

[tribal blade]

yeah me legit just spreading bleeds and setting up for burst window with tricks up

[runic trail]

Then you get to the fun part and, dead

[tribal blade]

press DM and suddenly everything starts smacking me

and then the druid dies on trash before 3rd boss

and releases

so we have to sit there killing the trash instead of going into boss when the tinkerer dies

so i lose out on funnel on boss

which is a massive dps loss for sin

[runic trail]

Still timed so it's fine

[tribal blade]

TRUE STILL TIMED

[runic trail]

That's the important thing

[tribal blade]

nothing bad happened on last boss

and just barely timed

had some other deaths besides those 2 too

[keen dome]

HUGE. Amazing

[tribal blade]

i think that gets me over the hump of starting 19s

hopefully more invites now

[keen dome]

Hopefully

[vale pine]

oh wow congrats

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/antonio-baldwin-iamtonytalks-tonytalks-i-have-a-thing-its-like-an-addiction-gif-20191475

[limpid sage]

open world sub was so much more enjoyable when master assassin was a thing

[formal helm]

Congrats!

[short radish]

holy shit this 4set feels like ass outside of dance

[formal helm]

did they fix it?

[short radish]

dunno what bug youre talking about but pressing coup and then watching the 5 seconds tick down while youre flaccid on energy trying to generate CP

feelsbad.jpg

[formal helm]

I'm not really up to date these days, but wasn't the 4set broken on ptr?

that's what I'm referring to

[brisk onyx]

its ok now

[fleet wharf]

goremaw gaming

[lilac stag]

It’s just, how you say, enhancing the friction of good feels during cds and depression of healer dps outside of cds.

[fleet wharf]

On a more serious note, can't we just send the 2nd coup without being at max cps since the damage scales linearly?

[lilac stag]

rip Goremaw messages. delete delete delete

[lilac stag]

Likely a math question. We don’t use napkins anymore so at the mercy of robot implementation timeline.

[vale pine]

It works since last update, so yes.

[limpid sage]

I don't think you get the extra energy from the Coup CPs

[hazy breach]

Yes sending coup at any CP is fine

[short radish]

surely they make the 2nd coup free

WHAT THE FUCK IS HTE POINT OF SHROUD

WHEN THEY ADD TRUE SIGHT TO EVERY MOB

HOLY SHIT

JUST DELETE IT FROM TEH GAME

trash everywhere in the raid

cant skip any of it

[runic trail]

I've used it to smuggle warlocks to sprocket at least

[fleet wharf]

it's there to make cats sad. we're just unfortunately caught in the crossfire

[short radish]

the new raid also has a billion trash

and theres a truesight mob every corridor

and all the mobs cast fear as well

so need 5 shamans for anti fear totem

[warm marlin]

Another deathskip season

[runic trail]

I never get why they put so much trash in the raid.

[short radish]

[hollow spear]

Trash is thematic

[keen dome]

Purple warrior armour gotten. Warrior arc complete, back to purple class

[tribal blade]

me in every dungeon this season

[limpid sage]

I just use it for 100% mms every 3 mins

[vestal escarp]

Gm

Doom status?

Mild?

[short radish]

i hate this 4p

rupture timing is a pain

[vestal escarp]

Bruh

Rupture

[short radish]

well like

[vestal escarp]

[short radish]

say you coup at 11 seconds or something

and youre out of dance

so then you spend next 5 seconds generating CP

to do your next coup

then you have 5 seconds left to get enough cp to rupture

its just clunky

[hazy breach]

Just dont spend 5 seconds generating cp

Its fine to send coup at any cp, since youre effectively sending atleast a 6cp finisher

[haughty mural]

So just send it ?

And don’t worry about it

[lilac stag]

Goremaw before sending it.

[tribal blade]

it's kind of a similar thing you can do with forced induction from shiv playing DS sin

if you really want you can send a 2 CP envenom and that'll basically be 5 CP

for DN you can send at 4 CP and it'll consume as if you used 7

[hollow spear]

It still seems like coup's interaction with finality in sim doesn't work the same way it does on live and ptr

Should we consider that as a bug or is that intentional?

Because if it was intentional, it would have a noticeable implication on decisions concerning our 2nd point in finality

[hazy breach]

Its not ahead anyway, but yes its being looked into

[hollow spear]

Not ahead in current sims or in that first approximation you did?

[hazy breach]

Sims

[hollow spear]

Wasn't it quite close already (like 0.6%) on live? Because with how the sim thinks it behaves I would have assumed that it might be stronger with the new tier set.

Stronger than the current 1/2 finality setup

[hazy breach]

Well the old set buffs eviscerate more

Theres some stuff still missing from sims for the deathstalker set, but even then it seems to be horrendous

Just straightup ass, common deathstalker hater W ig

[vestal escarp]

The surprise? Below 0

[swift tinsel]

coup wasn't behaving consistently when I was looking at one of my ptr logs so it's an odd duck

at least in terms of the buff appearing or being consumed

[hazy breach]

it is consistent, just not reasonable

[swift tinsel]

like I had one where I went in with no coup buff, didn't generate or consume any

[hazy breach]

If you have finality up when casting, it buffs the first hit only

If you dont have it up, it buffs the second hit only

Is what i found

[swift tinsel]

lemme see if I can find the screenshots

[hazy breach]

https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/pehzG8ZXou5YCBQBlBqYigaawiBSDWxnk0tSLS5moQk/https/i.imgur.com/unzh8lj.png?format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1075&height=588

[hazy breach]

The solo one is with finality up at the start

[swift tinsel]

apologies for not having it filtered to only coup events

but you can see I had no finality buff up pre-cast, and none of them appear during or after hit events

and another, with no FW up, appears to have the buff for all 3 phys hits

[hazy breach]

Ye FW makes it bug out

[swift tinsel]

ah

[hazy breach]

But you need fw up anyway so not much point talking about without it up

[swift tinsel]

makes sense

[hazy breach]

Thats why its wrong in sims

[swift tinsel]

but yeah for the most part, it behaves like you explained above but that one outlier had me confused

the non-FW related one

[hazy breach]

Because i went through it and forgot to check with FW up when checking interactions

[swift tinsel]

Lol fair

and I think I only had the 1 across the handful of logs that I looked at where it didn't show up at all so that's probably just an extremely small edge case thing

[hollow spear]

Does "fixing this" make a tangible difference in our sim results?

[hazy breach]

Not really

Just lower numbers

[hollow spear]

So it doesn't affect the delta between the rotten and finality for example?

[hazy breach]

Well it does, but it was ahead before this anyway

[brittle trellis]

Out of curiosity, why is the one button assistant THAT bad at subtlety rogue in particular ?

[hollow spear]

Oh, didn't know this was a more recent thing

[hazy breach]

Idk not really recent, like a couple weeks after .1 is when it was changed

[runic trail]

I tried it briefly so I don't fully know how it works, but the One button thing doesn't really save things for cooldowns from what I've seen. If shadowstep is up it just sends it.

[brittle trellis]

I see

[hazy breach]

Because sub rogues entire thing is saving and lining up cooldowns

[brittle trellis]

got it got it

[hazy breach]

Which the one-button rotation doesnt do

[swift tinsel]

it was telling me to sod at very random times

[brittle trellis]

wait shadowstep is an offensive cd now ? I've been out for a while x)

[swift tinsel]

and not use rupture

[runic trail]

shadowdance even

i'm dumb

[hazy breach]

It physically pained me to play with it and seeing it sending my only dance and symbols charge with 8 seconds left of flagellations cooldown

[brittle trellis]

ohhh ok

x)

[runic trail]

i knew what i meant in my head thats the important thing

[hazy breach]

And its supposed to not use big cooldowns

But it uses flagellation for some reason

Yet not blades

[brittle trellis]

probably considers only 1 cd per spec

?

idk

[lilac stag]

90 isn’t big. Blades likely on 2 minute list for it. Hahah

[hidden spade]

quick q - is it normal that sometimes during dance/symbols you might have to SS twice due to not enough combo points to do a finisher after the first SS?

[hazy breach]

Ye

[hidden spade]

ok ty

[hollow spear]

Did you sim the new tier set with the PE build, Eleem?

[hazy breach]

yes

[hollow spear]

Still behind?

[hazy breach]

yes

[hollow spear]

Sadge

[hazy breach]

Maybe playing with prism changes it but i wouldnt hold my breath

Theyre not implemented in simc yet so cant test

[hollow spear]

That's what I was hoping for

With trinkets (or at least one trinket) pushing more power into our cooldowns, burstier talents should gain

[hazy breach]

Hunt them down being 8% of overall damage as deathstalker

[formal helm]

Good talent tree

Peak design

[vale pine]

i am fine with detahstalker as a "hero talent fantasy" pick

[formal helm]

as a theme?

yes, deffo

the implementation? lacking.

at least for sub

[swift tinsel]

its functional enough for sin for them to leave it as is

[formal helm]

ye

[swift tinsel]

is what I assume their view is

[formal helm]

that's true

[swift tinsel]

which is funny bc in s1 they weren't happy we only played trickster and buffed DS, now in season 2 we only played trickster but DS is going untouched

[north schooner]

which is ironic given that assa is the one that can get locked out of its loop

[swift tinsel]

right lol

[runic trail]

For sin, deathstalker just looks better because the alternative is fatebound.

[vale pine]

yes

[runic trail]

Hard not to look good when you've got that to compare with.

[vale pine]

as long as its not dramatically behind in overall output

[warm marlin]

Sin also likes pressing envenom in aoe so dn isnt troll

[vale pine]

its good enough to allow individuals who like it to play

while the reset can enjoy trickster

[plush roost]

Ongod just make DN pulse aoe at like 80% for sub so its not nearly as painful in aoe

[formal helm]

that'd...essentially make it similar to trickster??

[swift tinsel]

affect bp/sectech

[formal helm]

maybe that ye

idk.

man I was hoping it'd be a good hero talent tree that'd let your poisons do smth on sub

or rather be a bit more interesting then just the thing that you apply once every hour and forget about

but alas

[hexed sluice]

Isnt trickster also the one themed for sub? Or am I missing them up?

I thought it was Fatebound outlaw
Ds ass
Trickster sub

And the other combos were afterthoughts

[hazy breach]

The gameplay is designed for sub yes

I wouldnt say the theme is very sub like (nor do i think the hero talent tree represents much trickery)

[north schooner]

maybe that was the case when it was centered around feint, but thank god that got changed

[hazy breach]

The hour long tricks is bang on the theme

But the rest? Meh

[hexed sluice]

I feel like there's two main parties of what sub is to people

I always felt like it was very much bag of tricks tons of utility etc in and out of fight.

But I know purple is very popular

[formal helm]

even then, I don't think it'd show much "trickery" as eleem said

it was basically the same but with feint as a trigger iirc

[hazy breach]

Well ye back in like classic sure

[swift tinsel]

trickster to me implies more whimsey which doesn't come through at all

[hazy breach]

But hasnt been much "trickery" for a long time, atleast not to me

[hexed sluice]

Idk if I can live without the pickpocket range increase, I'm already preparing to mourn it's loss

[proven plover]

I wonder what they intend to do with hero trees going forward, like is it going to be something stuck with us for the entirety of the worldsoul saga, are they intending to rework them at all since the rogue ones are really lacking imo

are they going to add to them

[north schooner]

what would make it express more trickery then?

[hazy breach]

Dust for example

[swift tinsel]

they've said evergreen so I assume at least all of worldsoul

[formal helm]

I was expecting a lot of cdr for cc / slows etc
just utility in general ig?

since it's a trickster

but it just turned out sub version of OL

[formal helm]

I would hope so

would be really stale to just have this for 3 expansions

[proven plover]

we will see at gamescom I guess

[formal helm]

ya

but I guess you could always leave it like it is

and add other external sources of power

[proven plover]

add another champion tree

yes ofc

[formal helm]

[hazy breach]

I mean theyve said its supposed to be an "evergreen" feature

Aka theyre not gonna remove it once midnight is released just because

[formal helm]

that'd just make it unneccessarily complex for the sake of being complex.