subtlety

[wicked urchin]

im drunk

[warm marlin]

3-5%? Something in that range

more as deathstalker since they can get parried too

[mental dune]

dam thats way more relevant than i would have expected
fairly big

[warm marlin]

find weakness

[placid crown]

Hi i'm back. 100% rupture applied time. Ending dummy fight with 1.95M. Same as my usual gameplay.

Btw, my "usual" gameplay has rupture applied at ~85% of time

[north schooner]

did you sim dummy or patchwerk? there are differences. Plus you are unbuffed if you simmed with buffs

[placid crown]

but i admit that the "keep rupture up and use 1cb per 90sec" is easier to play than my usual gameplay "try to keep all cd lined up and perfectly executed" and leading to same result

i just tested it myself on a 6min fight vs a single dummy

1.95M dps

simming tells me i could go to 2.25M dps (by chosing the flask/pot i have, and removing all raid buffs i can't have alone of course)

[keen dome]

Rupture, please

[placid crown]

Used this btw (and no rune)

[north schooner]

yes but what sim mode did you choose? Although sub has fairly high variance too and the sim is doing thousands of iterations compared to your 1

[placid crown]

chosed single target 6 min

with these food/pot/flasj

[north schooner]

if you choose target dummy as sim mode it disregards buffs and consums

[mental dune]

to be fair the raidbots dummy is at 100% but the one in dornogal is always at 0%, no?

[placid crown]

tell me more

am i missing an effect due to target hp

[north schooner]

sub has no execute

[placid crown]

not in trickster

(playing trickster rn)

[placid crown]

ye ye, i kept it active 100%time :p

[mental dune]

and you stood behind target the whole time?

[placid crown]

ye

[north schooner]

please tell me you are not talking about fatal intent

[cloud rover]

*I jsut press ONE Button

[runic trail]

Listen that once did 2mil damage in a fight for me. Huge.

[north schooner]

over a 2 hour fight maybe

[runic trail]

It beat the hot sauce buff from raid at least

Barely

[placid crown]

i'm close to try the new single button to check the difference

or someone already calculated the loss of dps due to the increase of gcd ?

[north schooner]

it's pinned

or was dunno

still is

[mental dune]

pretty sure single button assist is about 25% worse

[north schooner]

and you need to SB manually

[placid crown]

but i'm close to 25% worth relatively to my sim

😄

[mental dune]

not really?
its like 15%
sim is 2.25 youre doing 1.95

[north schooner]

you are less than 25% from your sim and you did 1 iteration

[runic trail]

For me I simmed target dummy as 2mil, one button did 1.43mil

[mental dune]

rotation helper also performs worse than your natty rotation too

[placid crown]

yeah 15%.. About the iterations, i did 3 iterations, not a lot though i know, but always falling between 1.92 and 1.99

[north schooner]

the sim does thousands of iterations

3 is nothing

[placid crown]

ye ye..

[north schooner]

you can check the damage breakdown of the sim (it will only show 1 iteration) and compare it to yours

if they are similar then there are no major mistakes

[placid crown]

and is there a way to remove ascending blade aura/stacks ?

just to restart a dummy fight without any buff acquired with precedent fight

[north schooner]

to cancel it? no

but it doesn't matter

you can just spend a coup before starting if you want

[mental dune]

also sorry random but what does "pandemic window" refer to?
off context im assuming just when rupture is about to fall off
but does it matter how close to falling off it is as long as it is 100% uptime

[north schooner]

pandemic window is a window in which you can refresh (some) dots without losing duration

[keen dome]

Pandemic is when a skill inherits part of it's current duration to 'pandemic' the duration.

!pandemic

[wicked jolt]

Pandemic takes up to 30% of the duration of a applied dot/buff and adds it to your new applied one. The duration depends on the new instance.
Example: Garrote (18 sec) can be extended by up to 5.4 seconds from an existing instance.
Note: Pandemic applies to most but not all debuffs/buffs

[north schooner]

that's 30% of the duration

it just allows you to have more freedom with when you refresh rupture in this case

[mental dune]

ah ok so assuming max rupture you wanna reapply when you hit 10-ish seconds?

[keen dome]

Yeah. I do mine on 9 seconds.

[placid crown]

yeah but need to be at 4 stacks to spend coup, and the time i grow to 4 stacks... i can also grow with tier set stacks.... that are also un-removable... So i struggle to remove both asending and tier set stacks XD

[short radish]

based

[north schooner]

it honestly doesn't matter if you have escalating blade stacks already, it shouldn't affect your dps noticeably over a few minutes

[mental dune]

the hard part is that i have no concept of how close to the sim is reasonable for a person to reach
im also generally hovering around 10-15% n it feels like im not incorporating some glaring factor

[placid crown]

Ending 2.00M at 6 mins.

the uptime is a lie, i did 100% but because of poisons the details is still working whereas i stopped the dps on the dummy for 15sec

just sayin x)

[mental dune]

oh thats actually kinda funny
a source of damage that i dont think wont show on sims is the buff "sacred flame's ward"
for me it was ~1% of my damage

so difference between in game and sim is actually a slight bit larger

[latent finch]

Sacred flame is a buff you only have on a in open world in the current zone

[placid crown]

If you say so, but Undermine isnt considered in khaz algar ?

[tepid trellis]

its made pretty realistic so with proper play you should be able to hit the sim number (if you arent on bugged dummies)

[formal helm]

it is iirc
should be the entire new area in tww (11.0. and 11.1 )

[placid crown]

So Rupture up 100% of the time is ~7% of the dps for me

It feels low

[mental dune]

dam so im definitely missing something
not sure what it could be though
i was about 5% off on my last test
felt like there was a lot of input delay but that might unironically be from having 3 digit haste

[mental dune]

was 7.5% for me

[placid crown]

mmh ok

and i dont see the charged bolts on my detail

weird

[mental dune]

actually rupture might be higher % from the initial damage cast if you didnt add that up

[tepid trellis]

haste has close to 0 impact on sub

[tribal blade]

it's very common for there to be lag at the target dummies

happens to me all the time

feels like i'm playing at 300-500ms sometimes

[mental dune]

i knew about sub hating haste just kinda wanted to cope
there arent even any people here so i wouldnt have thought thered be a delay at the dummies right now

[tepid trellis]

all you get from haste is VERY tiny increase in energy 10%=1 more energy per sec
lil bit more attack speed
and rupture dmg

[north schooner]

dummies in busy cities are horrible yes

and open world is already laggier than instance servers

[tribal blade]

you can actually see the effect of haste on rupture when you get ridiculous amounts

like on mop remix when we had haste cap

rupture would tick insanely fast

[runic trail]

One day we'll get instanced dummies.

Instanced dummies, NPC to reset cooldowns, NPC that gives buffs. Pls. I want this.

[north schooner]

shadowbleed build

i find it unlikely we will get instanced dummies

but you can cheese it by joining an instance and using a dummy toy

[runic trail]

Could even do some fun things like add swirlies in the room to practice movement and rotation

There's potential here

[mental dune]

ok but who needs instance dummies when you can have
raidbots p i n g s e t t i n g

[placid crown]

Just tried with Gloomblade instead of Replicating Shadows, went to 2.12M

[runic trail]

For the other potential benefits

[mental dune]

yea no im kidding
that sounds awesome

[runic trail]

But target dummy that you can simulate some basic mechanics on would be huge

Get you used to moving while doing rotation

[placid crown]

oh but this time bolts were counted

[runic trail]

(I mean that'd be more mainly good for me because I'm terrified of trying out new shit in group content)

[mental dune]

what did you do to make bolts work?

[placid crown]

idk

nothing special

btw the rng : dealt 51.93M with rupture without Replicating Shadows, and dealt 50.36M WITH replicating shadows

the rng goes through the 20% rupture buff

[north schooner]

no the 20% is an extra entry in your breakdown

because it's shadow

[placid crown]

ah yes my bad ><

i see it in my previous deteail, 9.85M so 1.3% of the dps

gloomblade feels way better

[tepid trellis]

feels?

it doesent change anything

lol

[placid crown]

wait yeah doing same mistake

[tepid trellis]

its just a backstab thats purple

[hidden spade]

Not 100% sure it’s bolts but does anyone else have issues in m+ where bolts will randomly hit an enemy whilst youre out of combat waiting for TFD countdown, which then resets the countdown?

[vale pine]

the one thing gloomblade removes is the positional requirement

but not even that entirely

[north schooner]

charged bolt can do that yes

[placid crown]

choice between a) bs 25.82M + rupture 50.36+9.85 = 86.03M or b) rupture 51.93 + gloom 39.33 = 91.26M. So 5M damages diff over 770M = less than 1% diff. Ok ok

and rare are the fight with 0 add during all the fight.. so yeag replicating shadows is better

[tepid trellis]

isnt that still bugged?

so you still need to be behind

so its literally just a shadow dmg backstab

[vale pine]

exactly

but backstab has the "does extra damage"

so this requirement is removed with gloomblade

[tepid trellis]

that extra dmg goes a long way

[vale pine]

haha

its like

0 + 0.2*0 = still 0

[north schooner]

they had to tone backstab down from doing too much from the front

[mental dune]

should evis or sectec be doing more on most pulls?
or is it just dependent on procs/fight length
because for me its very consistently evis by 5-ish%

[vale pine]

its more a artifact from the past

backstab did a lot more damage in classic

[tepid trellis]

Evis

[vale pine]

but over time, the damage bonus got nerfed and we got stronger cooldowns

[north schooner]

builders did way more in general in classic but finishers were a joke, now we are on the opposite side

[vale pine]

finisher doing most damage makes a lot of sense with modern design

[north schooner]

it is better yes

[tepid trellis]

thats boss dmg from a mugzee kill at some point

[vale pine]

shuriken storm is too energy expensive tho still^^

[north schooner]

builders do feel bad though when they hit for meme damage. At this point they could change backstab to do 1 damage and nobody would notice

[placid crown]

counting the different forms of evis @mental dune

[tepid trellis]

its just evis + shadowed finishers

[vale pine]

I think what feels bad the most atm is:

• Storm high energy cost, as you don't get to use it much even with multiple targets
• The energy costs of Finishing moves

[runic trail]

I always assumed shadowstrike did more damage than that, that's.. barely anything

[vale pine]

epecially the second point is something people playing any other class struggle with

[mental dune]

im just talking regular evis
not coup
but good to know
my sectec damage is a little higher but it might just be due to higher uptime on dummy vs mugzee id imagine?
or i might just be doing something wrong and thats totally possible

[vale pine]

because "i build my combo points, why can't i use a finisher/consumer"

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[placid crown]

then (no any raid buff, alone with **food/pot/flask vs single dummy, 682 ilvl)

[tepid trellis]

coup is by itself below sectech

its only details that makes it look weird

[vale pine]

this is a breakdown of parts of abilities

[tepid trellis]

i did only have 20% crit rate on it

which is kinda dogshit

[north schooner]

I am ok with #2 tbh because you get relentless strikes as sub which refunds the cost anyway. But I suppose you could have it reward you with energy by playing properly and finishing on high CP. However, with the current gameplay loop would it even make a difference? Energy is ok in dances and damage is minimal out of it. SS costing so much feels like shit for a spec that plays with 100 max energy

[placid crown]

only 1 shuriken storm ? your group destroy the adds so fast ?

[tepid trellis]

normally i wouldnt storm at all on mug'zee

[mental dune]

this is what my damage test looks like
bolts was broken but whatever
close-ish to the mugzee pull besides a few things
granted i might be able to chalk up the lower evis damage to the weird dummy lag

[placid crown]

but isnt worth it to storm when boss is close to an add and you dont have sod/dance up and available ?

[tepid trellis]

no

[placid crown]

wait what why

[tepid trellis]

its does 0 dmg and doesent nimble

• cant proc unseen blade

and costs infinite energy

[placid crown]

talking about the jumping add

[mental dune]

only boss you would argue is maybe stix or vexie

[placid crown]

not the shielded ones

[tepid trellis]

doesent matter

you need more targets for it to be worth

[random hare]

[west lake]

is it viable to play with a slow offhand weapon?

[tepid trellis]

no

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[west lake]

thx

[vale pine]

The difference is when you are allowed to interact.
The system as now means you can only use the finisher with energy, this can be limiting at times especially if you are not in cooldowns which increase energy income.

Removing the constraint allows the player to finish as soon as they generated the combo points instead of staring at the wall waiting for energy or cooldowns which generate energy.

If you want to understand what i know, its very easy to notice in aoe

storm can bring you down to below finishing energy levels

[lilac stag]

@tepid trellis are you planning on streaming LA anytime soon? Was gonna toss it on while working.

[vale pine]

so you can't finish and need to wait to be allowed to so to say

[north schooner]

yes in AoE the gaps are very noticeable

[placid crown]

Do you feel over the years that your analyses and guides have given you an aura regarding Blizzard's decisions, in the sense that they have already made gameplay changes based on your analyses? I would love the answer to be "yes", it would give me hope and enthusiasm for the future of sub rogue.

[tepid trellis]

very unlikely, cuz i fcking suck at it

[vale pine]

I do think this discord and discussions we had in here ended up influencial on design decisions.
But many of the design decisions ended up not in line with feedback given

A very good example is the newest change subtlety got

The first Dance rework

The idea of the rework is actually good

but any dev who reads discord, the forums or any other form of player feedback

understands how restealths on rogue ended up many times as a central discussion topic and friction which was not liked

[short radish]

[vale pine]

This did however not lead to rethinking about the design

[short radish]

lets make rogue need restealth except they also need to restealth even longer

[vale pine]

but deciding to double down on it

[short radish]

that being said sometimes they cook something good

[vale pine]

and not only add restealth as a requirement

[short radish]

like multiple charges on symbols

[vale pine]

but a 6 second timer, which does not exist in this form for any other spec in the game

[short radish]

which when first announced the general feel was that it was very whatever

[north schooner]

I do like relentless strikes as a mechanic because it's a nice way to incentivise good play (finish on high CP). There is also some charm in the fact that it has been around since forever. AoE wouldn't feel as horrible if SS didn't take half our energy bar. Energy in general is in a very weird state for all 3 specs right now though

[vale pine]

So i would say, blizz has a lot of internal opinions on design, anyone outside can impact. But if it comes to the final execution they often go into directions which seem odd

[placid crown]

Actually enjoying the first dance in delves. But for contents like raid or even M+..

but that's an interesting answer

why dont they give you a job at their dev team

[north schooner]

in M+ tfd is extra horrible because it's buggy as fuck

[vale pine]

I think you can't make it right for everyone

but its very easy to upset people^^

[north schooner]

it's painful to wait 2-3s for it to activate only for it to bug out

[vale pine]

especially if, like in the example i made, you go against year long feedback

my problem is player feedback too

the timer is not obviouse

it is a seperate event to "out of combat" and as such can be delayed

makes tracking it hard

and then there are bugs you can exploit because of this design

[north schooner]

the question is why is it a separate event? It was a good thought to add a buff for it at least

considering this expansion we've had quite a few things we cannot even track (UB for once)

[vale pine]

because of the timer ^^

the addition means you need to somehow track the time elapsed

[swift tinsel]

They’re replaced with layered/redundant buffs we don’t need to track

[vale pine]

which makes it not only "out of combat" but "this long after"

[lilac stag]

good and at bad game. bad at a fun game to watch.

[north schooner]

yes but the buff you get which counts down doesn't appear immediately outside of combat. That's my point. Sometimes it gets delayed for whatever reason

[vale pine]

also keep in mind the game is fairly old, so there might be some limitaitons on how developers can design spells.
And also how easy/difficult something is to design. The easiest path is often the one someone will take if given the chance

you actually see this in gaming a lot lately

where every new released game looks like the other, and all have somewhat similar camera and controls

[north schooner]

combat is buggy on its own, so there is an issue there with anything to do with combat (restealthing etc). This adds an extra breaking point because not only combat can be buggy then TFD can bug on top of it

[vale pine]

all because its easy to create in unreal engine ^^

haha thats true

stealth is also a buggy mess

some stealth code likely dates back to vanilla wow, and things are just layerd on top

[runic trail]

I don't know if they just need to go for a wow 2.0 at this point, start anew

[north schooner]

that the engine is old and was initially designed with much simpler mechanics in mind is understandable. The game is very complex now

[runic trail]

Instead of building upon years and years of code

[vale pine]

e.g. if you are not a pvper, a little party trick you can do is to use dance and then vanish and wait for 3 sec.
Your shadow dance buff will disappear just after that, because improved vanish fades and you get stealth applied

(if you do pvp, you likely know it already)

[vale pine]

because its too expensive

[north schooner]

starting from scratch isn't necessarily better either btw

[vale pine]

It rly depends how deep you want to go

but then more effort you put into it, then more expensive it becomes

[graceful osprey]

I actually wish there weren’t so many things to track sometimes.

[vale pine]

a wow re-write would allow for a more modular design and a cohesive system to accellerate development and lower the amount of surface for mistakes. As well as create a more efficient game and server

[runic trail]

Also I'd hope better optimisation, cos WoW sometimes TANKS in FPS when other games run smooth.

OAB pulls were a slideshow for me

[vale pine]

other games can handle higher player counts way better than wow is i think the easiest examples of something thats likely a consequence of old code and design problems

[north schooner]

at this point, 20 years after we are at a ship of theseus situation anyway. How many things are still intact from the original game?

[vale pine]

just to be clear, i am just guessing. I have no access to their internals or source code

Well wow grew, and this means there is likely code which dates back to the beginning still active

its likely that a lot of the knowlage of the old code is lost too or limited to a few people at the company

logically, i would assume someone at one point did build a abstraction to make their life easier

[north schooner]

many of the original devs have left/retired so that must be hell. Code dating 20 years back is rarely fun to read through

[vale pine]

but this now means, you probably only work on the abstraction and need to get special permissions or people involved if problems reach deeper

It isn't easy at scale, and all projects i worked with have some amount of problems if they run this long

[north schooner]

designers work with abstractions but when it comes to bugs etc you cannot as a player know on which end things fail

[vale pine]

you don't need to

the above is however good context as to why certain bugs might be in the game for long times

you still have limited time to work on the game as a dev and your time is likely split between diffrent tasks not only fixing bugs

so a bug which needs long to fix, might be shelved in favor of doing something else

[north schooner]

yeah. See BF hitting deadge targets for instance. It's been in the game for so long. They removed the flag and now it no longer cleaves if the target dies. Obviously the new fix is better but neither solution is "perfect"

[vale pine]

Design decisions also change in general for the game

e.g. one thing thats very noticable latelay is the fairly blunt use of old content for in between bigger patches

[lilac stag]

the game was designed to be contained in a single server with clearly defined factions. look at that alone to see how much coding has changed that's not even "gameplay" related. no way they'd even come close to coding the game how they originally did

the longer they hold onto the oringinal code, the more work they are adding on to their plates

just like building a house on a shitty foundation. keep putting good work on top of bad work and it eventually all goes to shit

[north schooner]

factions are still causing them problems too

not everything is crossfaction yet due to that

[runic trail]

See our hunter faction changing last night and being locked out of raid

[lilac stag]

yeah dont do swaps with mythic lock outs

[north schooner]

serves him well for being a betrayer

[lilac stag]

wtf was he swapping for on gally?!? i could see mugzee

nm. hunter = dumb

[runic trail]

Dunno, apparently more damage despite damage not being our problem

[lilac stag]

new problem. have 20 people to raid, hunter locked out. only 19 people. go go 1% race change dps boost

[runic trail]

We had someone faction change in the mid raid 10 minute break as well once, which caused problems

We are not smart people

[lilac stag]

my kinda ce guild

[runic trail]

We gain CE by hitting our head against bosses until we get lucky and the boss has an aneurysm mid pull

Sprocket took 200 attempts

[lilac stag]

oof

[runic trail]

Our highest pull boss by far

Even mugzee was like 130 something

[swift tinsel]

Sounds familiar 😅😂

Minus the actually killing sprocket part

[lilac stag]

i dont remember our pull count

[short radish]

what teh fuck

[lilac stag]

do any of the sites actually track it?

[short radish]

yeah

progstat

[swift tinsel]

Does RIO?

[brittle plinth]

How does m raiding work? Is it same faction only?

[swift tinsel]

I know they do health percentages but idr if they have pull counts too

[short radish]

https://progstats.io/

put your guild in here

and you can see how shit you are in comparison

[short radish]

no

pretty sure its cross server now as well

any faction any server

[brittle plinth]

If you do a normal or heroic, can you still do mythic same week?

[short radish]

or maybe cross server is when hof closed

[short radish]

yes, but mythic lockouts are to the specific instance

so you cant join one group

then another different group later

[brittle plinth]

Like classic

Thanks

[swift tinsel]

117 pulls on sprocket best pull 25%

[brittle plinth]

I think I'm gonna try raiding, start with normals probably right? 678 ilvl.

[short radish]

bro you can raid mythic at that gear level

but probably start heroic first

and join a guild

[brittle plinth]

Heroic k

Thank you.

[runic trail]

[short radish]

honestly mugzee and gally werent too bad

like thats about average i think

or a bit above

[runic trail]

That boss was our fucking nemesis

[brittle plinth]

Rik mythic kill would be so nice to be able to spend my dinars

[jade urchin]

is the belt nerf live already on EU or is it with reset

[brittle plinth]

Maybe in a week or two if heroic goes well

[runic trail]

Reset

[jade urchin]

aight tyvm

[runic trail]

Can't even call myself a RFWL raider now

[cloud rover]

[lilac stag]

I love that Rik was our nemsis. wtb range that can target swap

[short radish]

fire is banned from swapping targets

[runic trail]

I'm just glad I was bench for most of stix prog, dodged that bullet

[short radish]

fuck mages

sameeeeeee

[lilac stag]

letgit it was me and the DH flying aroud to every set of ranged adds

[runic trail]

Best part, benched for 90 pulls, got brought in cos someone was late, we killed it in 2 pulls

[lilac stag]

that was one of our mages and evokers

[cloud rover]

I like that many have close or more pulls on lockenstock than on gally

[runic trail]

Best prog of my life I got caught up on my reading

[short radish]

MELEE RUN OUT TO AFRICA AND SWAP TO THE ADDS

RANGED TUNNEL THE BOSS

[lilac stag]

i think our pull count is decent for our ranking

could be way worse

[runic trail]

We also had a boomkin on stix that for night 1, was in single target spec

[lilac stag]

this is the problem when 2 of your players are trusted to do everything and anything LOL

[runic trail]

My raid leader started drinking that night

[lilac stag]

I joke that our raid leader breaks the bridge of his nose after 90 minutes of raiding

[runic trail]

We also had a Ret pally doing coins on bandit

How we got CE is fucking beyond me

[short radish]

okay

[lilac stag]

you got it. i hope we do this week

[short radish]

that is the most cursed thing ive seen today

[lilac stag]

nah ret is fine. it's ranged melee

[runic trail]

We legit tried most ranged and they fucked it, he goes on it to test it, did it flawlessly

[lilac stag]

tell them to swap to BM

[runic trail]

So he got lumbered with it

[lilac stag]

have fun on reclear

hahah

[cloud rover]

We also had our WW do it in a reclear (he swapped from Hunter to WW) Because the other Hunter didnt know what to do

[runic trail]

He's already been told he's doing it on reclear

[lilac stag]

fuck that. i'm sick

[cloud rover]

I would just skip 1 raidday

So someone has to do and learn it

[lilac stag]

fuck. have to delve for the belt change

almost forgot

[brittle plinth]

Does Invincible drop often off H LK or did I roll a nat100?

[lilac stag]

I dont want to log in

[cloud rover]

Its insane

How blizzard just knows

[short radish]

nat 100

[cloud rover]

Overbuffing

or overnerfing

[brittle plinth]

Woot

[cloud rover]

I think its 1%?

[blazing seal]

Guys, quick question... which spec should I try out to minimize having to keep track of a number of debuffs on targets? I know that assa already has a couple if not more, and that is not enjoyable to me. Saying avoid rogue is also a valid answer

[cloud rover]

like every endboss mount in non current content

[lilac stag]

outlaw

[cloud rover]

Idk about this

You track RTB, ADR, Stealth, GS

[blazing seal]

I never tried sub, so outlaw makes sense to me

[lilac stag]

on the target

[cloud rover]

I misread again

[blazing seal]

but yea, maybe it changed since I played it, back when they removed combat

[lilac stag]

you can track shit all on the target as outlaw

[cloud rover]

Zoomer brain

[lilac stag]

as soon as you add rupture, you're tracking more on the other 2

[blazing seal]

Would you say rogue is a dot class then?

[lilac stag]

no and maybe

[blazing seal]

wait, I meant to say damage dots, not debuffs, they are different things right?

[lilac stag]

assa can be in m+

you're tracking both as sub

Find Weakness is the devil

assa has dots

outlaw has zoomer gameplay, zero tracking on target

[blazing seal]

Yea, rupture, garrote and so on

I will read about outlaw then, thanks

I do not enjoy classes that rely on dots to deal damage

[lilac stag]

the one problem with outlaw right now is Killing Spree, and that's getting fixed

major problem

[blazing seal]

Thank you

I remember not particularly enjoying the RNG part of it, but I remember it being fun to press buttons on

much more direct than assa or sub

[cloud rover]

RNG is much more than other classes

The real RNG is if Killing Spree kills you or not

[blazing seal]

OH yea I read something about that

[lilac stag]

yeah no RNG with blindside or tier not proccing for sub CD window

god this tier is awful for rogue

envenom simulator with blindside gamba
spec left for dead for 6 weeks
killing spree

thanks realz kekw

[cloud rover]

Rogue in general has RNG, but we arent the worst

but still top 10

[swift tinsel]

I prefer when shadowcraft is the rng element not the whole tier set

[lilac stag]

@blazing seal for the most part, those of us playing rogue have an unhealthy attachment to the character, not the class

[runic trail]

That's me. My rogue was the first character I ever made and I get attached to my characters

Other characters don't feel the same

[short radish]

same

well

technically my druid was the first char i made

but i apparently hate druid

played in wolk, got to 27 as druid then quit

came back in cata as rogue

and stuck with it ever since

[cloud rover]

I started raiding with Rogue

and ill finish raiding with Rogue

[short radish]

[keen dome]

[clever delta]

sub on ptr is broken right

im chilling with assa?

[runic trail]

Tier set is, ye

[swift tinsel]

Didn’t play mine until late cata and def isn’t my most played but I love it more than the rest besides maybe my dk

Yeah it’s literally just not being able to use the free coup bc the spell isn’t available despite having 4 stacks

[tribal blade]

how many rogue notes on reset

[short radish]

-1

[tribal blade]

surely this time we get a lot

surely this time it'll be different

[short radish]

[tribal blade]

like staying with an abusive partner

who keeps beating you

but you stay

[cloud rover]

Prophet (Copium)

[tribal blade]

because things will surely change

[short radish]

low expectations, low disappointments

thats the name of the game baby

[swift tinsel]

We’re gonna get a fixed tier set, fixed DN/mark bug

[spiral sierra]

my life in a nutshell...

[tribal blade]

it would actually be wild if we got mage level notes on reset

[swift tinsel]

Reworked 2pc

Changed 4pc so the EB waste is gone

[runic trail]

Just gotta follow the chart

[swift tinsel]

A kiss on the cheek from our best girl

Or boy

Or anyone in between

[cloud rover]

Best we can do is buff BP by 15%

[short radish]

well no

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ftdu8yrKOw

it still hurts when we get nothing

but

it just doesnt hurt as much

[tribal blade]

haha that's so true

we're conditioned

[swift tinsel]

Imma be toxically optimistic

Throw caution to the wind

[tribal blade]

much danger you put yourself in young padawan

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/linkin-park-chester-bennigton-gif-9276012

[tribal blade]

hope leads to disappointment

disappointment leads to anger

anger leads to suffering

and suffering leads to playing ret

[spiral sierra]

oh no

not ret

anything but ret

[short radish]

i dont understand the ret hate

ret is basically plate ranged rogue

[swift tinsel]

The simplicity

Vs what you get from it

On top of paladin utility

[tribal blade]

i just chose a braindead spec at random

you can interchange them freely 😉

[spiral sierra]

we have like 8 rets in my guild that are on my 30 man roster (not at the same time but still) and so theres no room.

its more of a hate of thats they are everywhere

[swift tinsel]

That too

[spiral sierra]

but otherwise i like ret.

xD

[swift tinsel]

And there are a lotttttt of bad ret players

[spiral sierra]

yee

[runic trail]

I've hated them since WOTLK because for that entire expansion, every Ret was awful

[swift tinsel]

Who make silly choices

[runic trail]

Every single one

And the hatred has remained since then

[swift tinsel]

They’re valuable when played well

[spiral sierra]

i mean, i tried outlaw when i came back to rogue (was a mistake) so im back to sub.

[swift tinsel]

But finding one who can utilize that value is rare

[runic trail]

Yeah but they have to choose between hitting a utility or hitting divine storm

[swift tinsel]

And they typically just pad

[spiral sierra]

yee

[runic trail]

And the call of divine storm is strong

[swift tinsel]

So tru

[keen dome]

I have a buddy who plays Ret to it's pinnacle and it's INSANE

[swift tinsel]

They can do SO much

[runic trail]

Can you get him to teach the others?

[keen dome]

Every time I do a key with him and he's just demolishing everything. And then I do one with someone else and I beat them by like 2m.

[keen dome]

I wish.

I got to play a random weekly key with an R1 Warlock a while back and just seeing the extent really good players take their classes is wonderful

[swift tinsel]

And then you get some who don’t even have BoP/Sac/Freedom on their bars

[tribal blade]

the entire power of having a ret in a key is they're basically like a 2nd healer

because even though they do really good dmg, it's super pad

[lilac stag]

lies. no ret presses any utility in keys

[tribal blade]

i've seen them unicorns

they exist

[lilac stag]

AI

[runic trail]

They have them on their bars, it's just a showtooltip macro that actually casts divine storm

[swift tinsel]

This would explain so, so much

[keen dome]

playing with really good players is really good

too bad I'm not

[swift tinsel]

I do my good deeds from the shadows

My guild mates like running with me so I’ll take that lol

[short radish]

i dont have htem on my bars, i have them on my vuhdo frames

[hazy breach]

Vuhdo smh my head

[swift tinsel]

You’re a strong fella for living through the turmoil of setting up Vuhdo

[hazy breach]

Time to upgrade from 2006

[short radish]

yeah im a boomer, come at me

at least im not using xpearl

[swift tinsel]

Kekw

I switched to cell and I quite like it

[hazy breach]

Get cell

[short radish]

i just copy ellsmere setup

[swift tinsel]

Used default frames for a long time

That reminds me I need to do my post-season UI cleanup

[runic trail]

The mention of xperl takes me back, jesus

[swift tinsel]

Xperl, pitbull, SCT, Quartz

[keen dome]

Miks Scrolling Battle Text 🫡

[swift tinsel]

The OG’s

Oooo yeah MSBT goated

[short radish]

oh i still use that

and quartz

and tomtom

[keen dome]

Same, haha. Miks is great for a very specific use case

[short radish]

🙂

[swift tinsel]

Gotta go with regular floating text with NiceDamage font

[keen dome]

Comic ans or bust

[swift tinsel]

Had to copy hybridpanda lol

[fleet wharf]

I was away for a few days, but is it basically confirmed that dh is the one getting the void themed spec? like we won't be getting purple shit no more?

[runic trail]

There's nothing confirmed, just theories

[fleet wharf]

Everyone on youtube's jumping on the void DH bandwagon, so I wasn't sure

[swift tinsel]

yeah that'll happen when all the big youtubers jump on it for views

same with wowhead articles

[runic trail]

'VOID DH CONFIRMED?!!' followed by a video/article confirming nothing

[swift tinsel]

Fel Hammer is on its own marketing warpath about it

[runic trail]

Sure okay bud

[fleet wharf]

The only thing that made some sense is DH being like fight fire with fire kind of guys and they might be letting void elves become DH?

[swift tinsel]

that's my guess, or a cosmetic thing like how they changed colors for Sigil of Spite, The Hunt, monk JFS, warlocks with green fire

[fleet wharf]

I hope we get some cosmetic changes too that'd be pretty hype to have some void themed abilities

[vale marsh]

In TOP you know when you pull the 1st mob with the boss can you shiv the mob or the boss ?

[fleet wharf]

You can shiv the enrage mob to get it off

[vale marsh]

cheers bro

[fleet wharf]

you wouldn't want to use it otherwise though.

like use the normal builders

[clever delta]

how is SP getting reworked all the time but they dont have budget for rogue at all

i dont understant

[fleet wharf]

I dunno getting reworked every expansion is also a curse, no?

[runic trail]

Like a chef who keeps redoing your meals but fucks it up in a different way every time

[fleet wharf]

It's like you think the guy drowning must have it nice because you're dying of thirst, the reality is both of you are kind of f'd

[vale pine]

my gf uses grid and she loves it

unsure what you use vudoo for

[swift tinsel]

I think it started out as one of the big unit frame addons for healers because it has built-in click casting functionality

so you didn't need to use grid+clique or something like that

[fleet wharf]

Cell is so much easier to configure though. I don't think it's necessarily better than vuhdo or grid but the set-up and personalization process is just miles ahead

[swift tinsel]

grid is definitely iconic, and the one I've heard people using most over the years by far

Yeah, that's something I'm a big fan of with Cell. Plus, adding indicators for hots etc is very easy

[vale pine]

grid2 has all you need, its just time consuming to set up

[swift tinsel]

and customizable without needing to really invest much effort

Cell def succeeded in taking away that time investment for setup

[fleet wharf]

i mean so why would you use grid2 if you can use something that's about as good but takes only a fraction of time to set up?

[vale pine]

ye

[swift tinsel]

felt like I was able to get it up and running almost perfectly in just a few minutes of poking around

[clever delta]

we dont even need rework, just fix some old useless talents really

[stiff horizon]

hey hows sub looking on ptr?

[swift tinsel]

trickster potentially good, deathstalker still stinky

trickster 4pc still bugged but the concept is nice

need to play with the deathstalker set some more but currently do not like how often the increased mark cycling leads to conflicts in priority regarding sectech, especially during 2nd dance in flag

[stiff horizon]

ty

[swift tinsel]

if they fixed the dn/mark bug, would make the set feel considerably less bad to play with

[vale pine]

not much changed, tier set is probably numerical strong

(but does not work currently)

[bright elk]

If I sim the belt later today do I still need to sue the overwrites in the pin or will those be included?

[vale pine]

will be baseline once raidbots updates

so no need for the overwrites

but you need to wait for raidbots to re-build

[formal helm]

is latest wowhead article wrong or am I hallucinating? @vale pine
seems it listed electric current and static charge as best (updated)

but you say in a pin it's crit and static

[short radish]

Shadow step and tricks

[formal helm]

and if you go to sub page it also shows this

[short radish]

Also i dont like change

And I copy the vuhdo set up that Ellesmere does every expansion

[swift tinsel]

Ellesmere is Dad so I get it

I feel I should lean more into the click functionality of cell

too comfy with the [@mouseover][] macros

[fleet wharf]

is there anything we need to mouseover except tricks on the rogue though?

[swift tinsel]

I mean more so in general, not just for rogue

[fleet wharf]

Fair enough. If also takes shift+button mouseover commands too if you ever needed more mouseover options

[vale pine]

ill take a look maybe the one editing it forgot

Did dm one of the editors, so will be fixed soon i hope

[night sparrow]

Is there situations like 20+ mobs when CB should be used with BP instead of sectec ?

[opal basalt]

I mean you can basically use it as a simpler way of mouseover macros

Only think I really have on a main mouse button in cell is my dispel

Because I realised it’s easier

[vale pine]

you might want to sometimes use cb on your first secret if pull size goes down quickly (mobs die quick),
which is probably the biggest optimization you can

[old venture]

[vale pine]

i mean the 2p of trickster works

its just the 4p

thats like 50%

[swift tinsel]

best part is

the 4pc works for outlaw

kekw

#JustSubThings

[vale pine]

and this reduces it down to 25%

[old venture]

Microsoft is a small indie company, lend them some leeway

They’ll get it right!

[vale pine]

see statistics can be fun

"75% of the tier set works" sounds a lot better

[swift tinsel]

Seems to be a targeted attack on subtlety

as 50% of their set works, while 100% of outlaw's works

as suggested by available metrics

[naive mantle]

what if its not malice and just incompetence

[dawn summit]

the fatebound one does not work correctly (or didn't when i was testing it)

[swift tinsel]

in addition, recent feedback and clarification was provided to 66% of rogue specialization channels, while subtlety is the exclusive outlier

tldr my feels

[vale pine]

thats always the case, never assume intend what could be a mistake

[swift tinsel]

just part of the iterative process

my hope though is that they look at how the 4pc is implemented

and change the buff format from 5 seconds of 4 stack Escalating Blade to a separate buff that enables Coup to keep EB stackable during that time

tried providing a feedback post on ptr forums but everything gets buried in DK rework posts lol

[vale pine]

oh, there will be feedback posts on wowhead for first impressions (probably starting next week), so if you want me to highlight something specific just let me know

[swift tinsel]

Sweet! I'm going to do some more playing around with the deathstalker set to summarize my thoughts on that but a bit later I can message you with a few points if that's okay

[vale pine]

sure

[swift tinsel]

I saw the unholy dk and shadow priest rework impressions were up so I figured the other non-reworked impressions would start popping up at some point

[vale pine]

thats a diffrent deadline

and these classes/specs will still have a seperate article for the tier set impression

[swift tinsel]

ah, that does make sense

[sharp lake]

they should really put a glowy effect on the Backstab / Shadow Strike button when Unseen Blade is available

[swift tinsel]

Would be nice, yeah

related, does Havoc immolation get a temporary icon glow when A Fire Inside resets?

for some reason I want to say it does but I might be making that up

but that might cause visual confusion with the new rotation helper thing

[shrewd lantern]

nope

it just doesnt go on cd

[swift tinsel]

ty ty

[half comet]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[north schooner]

that forum is a mess, people posting asking for playable ethereal in the ptr forum is just

or the 12 threads for the same spec instead of consolidating them

[swift tinsel]

Yeah pretty sure prot warrior has the only actual dedicated feedback thread

[formal helm]

this guy comes in to laught at us and leaves

fkin' oxi man

[manic steppe]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fallow nimbus]

Why is the wowhead article recommending the mastery belt?

[lilac stag]

mistakes were made

You can sim them

[fallow nimbus]

Are crit, mastery and versa close?

[lilac stag]

See above

[fallow nimbus]

I don't have enough premium to sim all gems, gear and belt effects

[lilac stag]

wtf gear are you simming. Put on house of cards and pacemaker. sim the three belts.

[vale pine]

just put this below your /simc in advanced

no need premium

[lilac stag]

that won’t let him sim gems or whatever else was the reasoning

[vale pine]

well you can sim gems after it

but gems make little diffrence

[vale pine]

the one copying them over from the gear section did probably copy the wrong spell id, as haptics mentioned -> I hope its fixed soon

[lilac stag]

Could be worse. Could be the outlaw entry.

Wowhead using same AI as blizzard for rogue coding.

[vale pine]

it just got fixed

[frail skiff]

what are bis trinkets for sub

[vale pine]

you essentially want house of cards

the rest is whatever you find that sims well

[frail skiff]

iv got that one

what do people mean by sim

how do i sim gear?

[vale pine]

eye is a good one for longer fight lenghs

but shorter fights might be better with one of the more passive options

you sim top gear

[frail skiff]

oh

is sub any good in mythics

i plan getting 2500

with it

[runic trail]

Any spec can hit 2500, you'll be fine!

[keen dome]

Seconding.

[vale pine]

lol

let me check

[keen dome]

Just keep at it, practice, ask questions.

[frail skiff]

iv alot of crit on gear maybe i should swap ot other spec?

[lilac stag]

This was news post.

[vale pine]

ye

[runic trail]

Nah, you'll be fine.

You're overthinking it.

[vale pine]

i think you have a old version cached, could be your cdn too

[warm marlin]

still kinda wrong since outlaw's best belt is probably just a regular old 684 one after the nerfs 💀

[lilac stag]

Perfect future sub rogue

[frail skiff]

iv algari competitor vers/mastery 3x at 632 do i keep it?

[vale pine]

think the question is just which one is best in the situation

[warm marlin]

yes just funny

[runic trail]

I have zero clue how pvp gear works but I'm going to assume you should find some higher ilvl pieces

[vale pine]

haha possible

crit is not a bad stat for outlaw tho

[lilac stag]

They should use the aoe shield with amount of dmg they take in KS

[runic trail]

I've played sin for a while I'm good at turning my brain off and hitting buttons

[vernal hull]

tonights the night

@runic trail we've come to the dark side

[runic trail]

I got lured in by the promise of purple visuals

[steel zinc]

How about properly tuning and having a work tier set to do actual Tests for sub? 🤣

[vernal hull]

https://careers.blizzard.com/global/en

[steel zinc]

They have to much unorganized work space

[frail skiff]

sub rogue goes mastery>vers?

for mythic

[fallow nimbus]

I have a few combinations of mastery, vers, crit gear + recrafts

[steel zinc]

Both is fine

[frail skiff]

which do i prio

so i know for gear

[tepid trellis]

whatever the robot tells you to equip

[steel zinc]

As ring from bandit you want the versa one. And what stealthi said

[swift tinsel]

pretty much any combo that doesn't have haste

seek ilvl upgrades then go from there

[vale pine]

See, tuning is still a highly discussable topic.
Blizz has some assumption in their tuning approach which might lead to them being fine with how it is

[swift tinsel]

Bugfixes would be my biggest ask this ptr cycle like the last one

[vale pine]

I can personally outline some flaws in what they do, but in the end its just humans being human and having preferences and opinions which are possibly hard to overcome

[swift tinsel]

and addressing EB munching with the tier set

[vale pine]

Bugs is another such a topic

[swift tinsel]

for sure

[steel zinc]

The issue I see is in raid it clearly has some outliers like evokers. That are in raid 5% ahead. M+ is mostly tuning more based on the dungeons then actual output.

[swift tinsel]

I'm happy they took a good look at some in 11.1 ptr

[vale pine]

like one of the funniest bugs is to look at the flagllation tooltip during and outside of shadow blades

if you haven't there is a wrong associated variable which will make the numbers in the tooltip unresonably high

while this is 100% a bug

[steel zinc]

But I hope this ptr cycle we can have once a working tier set and not like 11.1 where we had 10 stacks permanent of the damage amp

[vale pine]

its not worth fixing, the player impact is low and it does not harm anyone

comparably, other bugs are more severe

[swift tinsel]

yeah bugs like that one I really don't mind since it doesn't disrupt gameplay

they can get to those whenever

[vale pine]

but even then, some are just small damage losses, and i can see why they are not top priority

sometimes i would absolutely say there is a need to have a better priority system

e.g. just taking DF as one example

[swift tinsel]

the nimble bugs are a bit more conceptual and I don't expect things like blades cleaving or shadow damage getting reduced bc of nimble being phys damage getting addressed

[vale pine]

Dragonflight had secret techniques bugged for 2 major patches with acrobatic strikes

which did mean, if any inexperienced player played acrobatics, he would have a high chance to deal significantly less damage

[swift tinsel]

if they fix nothing else bug-wise this ptr cycle though, it has to be marks being blocked by darkest night

[vale pine]

similar

season 4 had logs completely broken for a month

no spec in the game should be last in any statistic because logging is broken for this amount of time

especially if this month is at the very beginning of a major content patch

Another bug thats hard to defend was RS, where combo point generation would bug out and cause unpredictable refunds

the bug did celebrate its 1 year anniversary before being fixed.

[swift tinsel]

I legitimately jumped for joy when I found out they fixed it

[vale pine]

ALL 3 of this bugs ended up low priority for the dev team with 2/3 bugs needing more than a year to get fixed

and the last one, with the highest player perception impact "only" one month

[swift tinsel]

darkest night bug is almost to its 1-year anniversary

here's hoping

[vale pine]

which you could say is a very bad standard, if we go with what ion mentioned in the talk he gave

highlighting player perception as one of the highest priorities

[runic trail]

Do you reckon its a bit of a case of, 'this spec has less players, so it gets bumped down the priority list?', I appreciate that'd be hard to say exactly but I'm not exactly sure of the landscape of other classes and if they have longstanding bugs like that.

[swift tinsel]

I think that's kind of tongue-in-cheek implied

[vale pine]

I think a lot is devs perception

[runic trail]

Fair

[vale pine]

like inherently they are a team, and as much as outer communication can impact it (to a degree)

[swift tinsel]

because it's hard to just come out and say "this spec has less players so we give it less attention"

[runic trail]

It does lead to a self fulfilling prophecy of, 'spec has lots of bugs, less people play it, less people playing it so bugs don't get fixed' on repeat.

[vale pine]

there is a certain world view internally, in which arbitrary rulesets exist.

[swift tinsel]

yeah its an unfortunate feedback loop

[vale pine]

and these rules don't follow objective logic but are extremely subjective.

It is in a sense not all bad, because it is in part why people love this game

[swift tinsel]

that's definitely apparent, based on certain design decisions being directly contrary to what people are asking for

[vale pine]

sometimes stupid things which make no sense are allowed to exist

[swift tinsel]

case and point, Taez's unholy dk posts pointing out similar themes

[vale pine]

but for subtlety, it is just that there is soo much care taken that many of the even not so problematic stuff that it often does not get anything exciting.

i give you some examples, subtlety had for a decade a niche in mobility, getting two shadow steps and some personal flare like sprint on water.

but with DF, this was homaganized, now all 3 specs have the same mobility, removing any unique strenghts

[swift tinsel]

Personally, I find sub being in a position where it would benefit most from smoothing out the rough edges vs an entire rework which I think is a relatively decent position to be in

[keen dome]

Same

We're in a good spot but need refinement.

The dead talents, the edge cases.

[warm marlin]

well outlaw has grapple and not step

which was changed recently

[lilac stag]

What people are asking for them? Discords are still the minority of the player base. Class/Spec dev designer’s job is ultimately make something that it fun/interesting.

Discord players have tunnel vision for the most part.

[vale pine]

And the same applies to other things like:

• Funnel damage (which other specs or classes are completely fine to have)
• Execute (which for some reason is the only thing thats insisted to not shared between specs)
• The design of subtlety as a stealth and stealth cd centric spec (Which now all 3 are)
• BF now being on all 3 specs
  ...
  And i could go on for a long time sharing all the little things that are now homaginized and execptions which make no sense

You see the bias the most if you look at certain more recent design decisions

[lilac stag]

It’s almost like the different devs are all pushing “guidelines” in different ways.

[vale pine]

I did talk about it earlier today already, but the first dance design did take one of the most complained things.
And improved on it in the worse way possible.
You get the restealth reliance AND on top of it a 6 second timer which is also buggy.

[alpine wraith]

double tap

you forget making subterfuge useful for both

then fuck sub

why? because

[lilac stag]

Real talk. Realz / team needs a filter to run their ideas through.

[vale pine]

I can ensure you, i have at least some over a 3rd party inside on blizz

[lilac stag]

over complicated friction ain’t it

[vale pine]

that there is no design rule that justifies the above

its just as i highlighted earlier a subjective thing one of the devs rly wanted

[alpine wraith]

think there is a way to allocate time to the whole class instead of going spec by spec

running out of time then saying oh well

[lilac stag]

Broken ass spec for a year ain’t it

[vale pine]

the way i could explain it tho

[alpine wraith]

not like the class tree is sunshine and rainbows

[vale pine]

is for PVP

[lilac stag]

Fuck the pvp excuse

[alpine wraith]

you dont even want subterfuge in pvp

[vale pine]

which would not make sense because Realz did say PvP has no impact on talent design

in DF

[lilac stag]

Make the baseline spec. Modify it for pvp

[alpine wraith]

you may take it just because 2 vanishes are behind it

but subterfuge is a meme as sub now

[vale pine]

Subterfuge could be one example you could use to state that popularity is important

the very same patch dust was removed

[lilac stag]

There’s a possibility the simple answer is the correct one. They’re just bad at their job.

[vale pine]

subterfuge got updated for assassiantion

[north schooner]

subtlety's tree has so much trash it's hard to tell how they even expected those talents to be useful

[vale pine]

yet, it seems weird that it did not for subtlety

if you update a spell to work on all specs

[alpine wraith]

if they were only bad by design idk

[vale pine]

objectively seen, you would look at all 3

so you don't need to go back to the spell later, etc

[alpine wraith]

even +2 dance duration or +1 like it did way back would have been ok

[vale pine]

because you have limited time, it would make more sense to combine the time costs

[alpine wraith]

but that comes back too to FW being uselessly there

subterfuge used to be big because going from no way to get FW

to getting it

was super big

[vale pine]

So, i don't have a conspiricy against blizz

But their team size or strategy they are using definitly has some shortcommings

which manifests in likely unintentional problems

[alpine wraith]

maybe they are still training people

[vale pine]

Maybe, or maybe devs just have preferences

[alpine wraith]

in theory they hired but idk

[vale pine]

We have statistical outliners

which can't be explained

specs or classes which over the year are good too many times

there are some google docs documenting it, but its rly hard to piece this together

[warm marlin]

I mean the mage preference thing isn't even a joke

it is very clear it exists

[vale pine]

Just to be clear again, i am not saying this is intentional

but its just human, you like x, you want it to be good

[swift tinsel]

some classes have better marketing departments

and PR managers

[warm marlin]

there's also an old interview with ghostcrawler where he mentions he brought up nerfing mage many times but "was told no repeatedly by higher ups"

[swift tinsel]

we get the guy spinning a sign outside Quizznos

[median nacelle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/318002396171206656/1387133785614717059/image.png?ex=685c3c82&is=685aeb02&hm=12f180872d4939bf7a18b9b755e1dccf63d8fccfc014b1a7e9a3eeaf8ab34be3& i dont get these often, so makes me fuzzy inside when i get compliments as sub rogue in keys = )

[vale pine]

so the likelyhood for you making an argument to buff your favorite even if its performing adequat is high

e.g. this season is a good example

[lilac stag]

When it goes on as long as it has and repeatedly as it has, it’s basically intentional.

[vale pine]

assassiantion and subtlety performed absolutely the same (yes there are fine diffrences in high end progression of which was better for what fight, but we talk statistics here)

yet, they did buff assassiantio by 6%

so, objectively seen

there is no real explenation

if 2 things perform the same, why would you do that

[runic trail]

It would be nice for an explanation or insight as to why they've made the changes they do

[swift tinsel]

this 10000000%

as other specs get

[vale pine]

similarly if you look back at DF

or even before that

you often saw on rogue, specific specs getting buffs when they are behind

which put them noticable ahead of the others

something subtlety would have get due to bugs

[warm marlin]

didn't sub look a lot better in heroic? statistically

not that i agree with using heroic

[keen dome]

Heroic is a good metric where cool and handsome rogues exist

[vale pine]

both looked rly about the same in both

[keen dome]

[vale pine]

^ well not bugs but blizz actually applying the 5% buff twice

[warm marlin]

i thought i remembered the shorter kill times giving it a big edge

[vale pine]

the double buff would be how they hadled tuning in the past for assassiantion

[warm marlin]

especially early tier with the strength of transmitter

[vale pine]

however this time they clearly did not aim to do the same thing, but keep subtlety behind

again this is probably all accidental

[swift tinsel]

Sub got its main power spikes pretty early this tier, so we just kinda saw ourselves falling over time

[vale pine]

thats rogue many times

[swift tinsel]

and yeah, transmitter to hoc was not a large jump

[vale pine]

thats happening now

subtlety should statistically be closer to sin

even tho its tuning wise still worse

especially on heroic

but we can take a look

^

you see subtlety is even slightly ahead

[bleak night]

outlaws turn to lose to aug

huge

[vale pine]

and the gap is probably closing on mythic too

thats more because of just the absurdly short kill timers we get now

[runic trail]

don't worry, I'm playing sub in the drunk social raid on friday, I'll tank those numbers down for us

[vale pine]

we have ~3 min 30 timers on many fights

which is perfect for subtlety

but for a 2 min spec

not that good

quite bad even

[north schooner]

that was uuuhm not exactly a sign of competence. taking weeks to address a spec in very poor state, to only give it an aura buff, to apply it twice by mistake

[vale pine]

looking quickly:
vexie, cauldron, rick and locken all are around this timer

so actually

given that, sub should win out in mythic overall

because these timers arn't that ideal for 2 min specs

yet

it isn't

even tho diffrences are very small

but also possibly because of some bosses deisgn

if one thing, we learn from this conversation.
I think its just how difficult balance is

And you can make it easier for yourself, by not caring for some of the consequences and just "wing it" like blizz does

[runic trail]

Even then, most specs are very close to each other

[swift tinsel]

was just thinking this, outside of the tails everything is quite close

[vale pine]

like statistically seen

the top and bottom 3-4 are outliners

[swift tinsel]

even destro is propped up by what, cauldron and mug?

[vale pine]

even tho the bottom 4 is not that bad

for rogue it just sucks

[runic trail]

True, because we don't really bring much in the way of utility

[vale pine]

because how popular a spec is will highly depend on how strong it is in m+ and raid

and we have a lot of players who have preferences now because one spec was better for most of their play time

which is hard to solve because wow does not grow that much, so most players play since a long time

[swift tinsel]

Sub will always be the best rogue spec to me, its the class fantasy I like the most and the gameplay hits

[vale pine]

I think subtlety is mostly still seen as a pvp spec

[lusty epoch]

i read in here earlier that NOT using evis between flag+SB window was a dps increase, tried it out on dummy (just a few times) and it seem to be correct.

for example a 5:20 long fight with only using one Dance+SoD between flag and after that, saving ShaTec stacks and coup (only refreshing rupture with CP) i got 1,91M dps.

Maximizing Secret technique of cooldown with for example 2 dances+SoD and 1 SecTec+SoD between first Flag window, gave a 1,85M dps. (ofc always having 2 dances and 2 SoD for flag+SB)

If anyone was interested...

[swift tinsel]

I'd say that's at least partially true

that's how frost mage was treated for a long time too

even in guild that's the perception

so they were surprised when I blow shit up

[warm marlin]

[dry plank]

You will summon Guy who will tell you that sub is top spec for 50 seasons

[vale pine]

its one of the small optimizations.
You essentially would not use evis close to your 90 sec cooldowns (e.g. 20 sec before they come up)
And use rupture/snd during this period of time

[vale pine]

I did word it this way because it includes this opinions as well

if a player only played DF

subtlety was rly good for most of it

2 seasons of 4 best spec

so if you started playing during DF, your perception of the game is very diffrent

[graceful osprey]

Sub feels good when I’m blowing things up. I just wish it feels better outside of CDs. I feel like I’m hitting stuff with those pool noodles outside of CDs

[vale pine]

how likely it is for a player to only play since DF, is another topic

but i can add some conext
https://www.dataforazeroth.com/stats/ages

[swift tinsel]

damn I don't feel so bad about being old lol

I'm among friends lmao

[vale pine]

if we look here, we have a total of ~3% per year

on growth

so if we look at one xpac

or lets even look further

[north schooner]

how do account-wide achievements work for linked accounts? As in, could a portion of those be second or more accounts?

[vale pine]

76%, so more than 3/4th of the playerbase started before BfA

so 8/10 players have more experience than just the most recent game enviroment

[vale pine]

sadly don't know you could ask in #wow-general probably but unsure how common it is for people to have more than one account

[vale pine]

I am still a bit salty riot buried their mmorpg, it would have given propper competition and changed the mmo landscape

competition is good, and it leads to improvement.
Companies with low competition often fall back because they can exploit it for profits.
Something you see with american companies a lot lately (Intel, Teamviewer, Microsoft, Apple, Amd, etc.)

[mental dune]

wait where'd you find these player metrics? ive been thinking about this for such a long time

[bleak night]

if they are on the same battle.net they'll share achievements/collections etc

[lilac stag]

They hired too many of the whack blizzard devs

[bleak night]

at least thats how it was back in mop/wod when i started playing on my aunts bnet

[swift tinsel]

me too! I was really excited about it and Ghostcrawler would throw out tidbits here and there on twitter so I was really sad when they decided to shelve it

[vale pine]

i usually provide source to my posts, you find it on this 3rd party website

[north schooner]

[bleak night]

ghostcrawler is working on his own thing, not league mmo

looks cool but very far out

[vale pine]

I don't think that was the problem, at least from what i hear from others in the games industry

[bleak night]

as soon as they said league mmo was being restarted bc they didnt want a wow clone i immediately gave up any hope of it

[swift tinsel]

he was working on it when he was still with Riot

[bleak night]

yeah that was long ago though

[lilac stag]

It’s going to get the same death Camelot Unchained got

[bleak night]

[swift tinsel]

he still talked about it when he was working on it

[bleak night]

dont remind me please

[vale pine]

thats the assumption, but its rly hard to find sources and insiders say some diffrent things

[lilac stag]

fucking scammers

[bleak night]

i backed camelot unchained back before i learned no mmo ever comes out

sad times

fucking decade ago

at this point

[brittle plinth]

large orgs with silos inherently designed to prevent big-o leaks

[vale pine]

I don't know if there is any true competition to wow

[lilac stag]

That last video they tossed out. 💀

[brittle plinth]

NexusTK

[swift tinsel]

closest I can think of it FF XIV

[vale pine]

it is something blizz seems to be very aware of

[brittle plinth]

jk

my first mmo

its awful now