all things considered though double on-use could be viable with those two
#subtlety
swift tinsel
swift tinsel
having options is kinda nice though to slot around Prism. Antenna is pretty good, Cosmic Hunt is good, Lily is HoC 2.0, maybe there's a delve trinket but haven't seen any yet
(haven't looked)
sly shore
even if you use it at 1.5m it'll have decent enough stacks to be valuable
the trinkets are all really desirable next patch tbh
they did a good job
swift tinsel
for sure, and fight length will def play a part in when you wanna send which is a cool concept
yeah this time around I'm liking the variety because it's less "these are the least-shit ones to play with HoC"
swift tinsel
Oh wait there's a bunch of delve/open world trinkets
the last 8 that trinketaur sells cap at hero track
keen dome
I wonder if player housing will let me have pets
It better
sacred yarrow
theresabee??.gif
hollow spear
I always think I'll play something else than rogue
But I always come back eventually
vale pine
rogue is just gameplay wise more unique
vale pine
for subtlety, i would say arcane mage probably
dry plank
arcane has decent popularity
Because they meta. Mages play whatever spec is best ))
So there will be new dh spec with kyveza animations so fuk u sub rogues?
vale pine
Because they meta. Mages play whatever spec is best ))
this is the exact same on rogue
popularity is mostly decided based on tuning, we have otp's but not more than other classes
dry plank
this is the exact same on rogue
Yep
ivory quarry
Fellas, what do we make of first dance these days? I see everyone is running it but in my runs i so rarely get to take advantage of it. Suggestions?
ivory quarry
But like how do we triger it? We wait outside the fight till it procs? We somehow force it? How
hybrid prism
It usually triggers for me before boss pulls and rarely on trash.
steel zinc
for subtlety, i would say arcane mage probably
This is 100% true just that barrage conditions are kinda the hard part of the spec and not the actual cd management
while sub is all about cd management since everything is a cd
vale pine
Fellas, what do we make of first dance these days? I see everyone is running it ...
its good even if you only get a few uses
left ledge
Fellas, what do we make of first dance these days? I see everyone is running it ...
I mean the alternative is weaponmaster
It’s already better than weaponmaster on short fights with just one usage
inland tangle
Okay, so I have hit level 70 and have all my talents. I have to wonder: would it be problematic to macro symbols with another ability just to reduce button bloat and improve uptime?
ivory quarry
It’s already better than weaponmaster on short fights with just one usage
Yeah I reckon this is the general reasoning behind picking it
Thanks bois!
rocky ocean
left ledge
Okay, so I have hit level 70 and have all my talents. I have to wonder: would it...
You can bind it to dance, its just going to be suboptimal
You won’t play at 100% with symbols bound
honest basin
Okay, so I have hit level 70 and have all my talents. I have to wonder: would it...
In general if you're looking to play optimally you can't really macro much anything together anymore
left ledge
It won’t make you unable to kill like mythic bosses
honest basin
^
left ledge
It’s just not the best way to play the spec
sharp lake
Okay, so I have hit level 70 and have all my talents. I have to wonder: would it...
I highly recommend it for learning the spec. You will need to switch at some point, but learning when to dance and how the CDR pacing works is the most important part
honest basin
I highly recommend it for learning the spec. You will need to switch at some poi...
It really depends on what kind of learner you are imo. Someone like me for example, I build muscle memory mainly, so if I was to learn incorrectly it would be much harder to change later.
left ledge
Also symbols usage seems to change drastically every tier or two
honest basin
But it all really depends on how seriously you're planning on taking it
left ledge
Who knows what it will look like with our next double coup tier
Maybe you never need a naked symbols
honest basin
Maybe we don't even play trickster next tier 
inland tangle
I have 4 toons I play optimally. This toon is more just for funsies, might explore improving at a later date.
sharp lake
It really depends on what kind of learner you are imo. Someone like me for examp...
I could see that really, but for me the macro was super helpful for reducing cognitive load while I was focusing on the big stuff. The big issue obviously is the burst sequence is wrong, but the muscle memory quickly followed with some practice.
honest basin
(god I hope not)
haughty mural
Maybe we don't even play trickster next tier <:KEKW:910850607479398420>
Don’t say that
bleak night
haughty mural
I dare blizzard
honest basin
I could see that really, but for me the macro was super helpful for reducing cog...
That's fair. But then again this fuckin spec has played differently basically every tier since I started playing it in voti so I've had to relearn it constantly 
left ledge
Damn you missed shadowlands sub then
haughty mural
I instantly roll another character if ds is that much better
left ledge
With its almost 70% dance uptime
sharp lake
I returned to the game this tier so I haven’t experienced the true sub experience 😅
inland tangle
That's fair. But then again this fuckin spec has played differently basically ev...
That's kinda how I feel with all my specs. I now have a toon of every class aside from DK and I know I'll have to relearn them all at the very least next xpac if not next season
honest basin
Yeah Ive been told I missed a lot of good things, I play all three rogue specs, but sub is by far my favorite mechanically and thematically. Idk what it is but the little intricacies and optimizations, even when it's annoying as fuck(find weakness xd) are just so fun to me
sharp lake
I really like sub because the bursty playstyle feels most rogue-ish to me. Burst out of the shadows dealing tons of damage before fading back into the shadows preparing for the next moment
honest basin
Yeah I heard that's why they gutted our funnel xD
tulip badger
And ToS DFA into shadowdance mid cast
edgy zenith
how sick are the PTR changes?
haughty mural
I really really hope they give them 2p resets an indicator
If it’s only a glow I’d be happy enough
Tempted to ping realz on that (I never would do that ofc)
paper mortar
can someone explain coup de grace to me
do we just send it when its active? or hold for cds etc?
left ledge
Send
swift tinsel
Any kind of glow to show when next bs/strike procs UB would be very nice QoL
That plus changing how the 4pc handles escalating blade during the 5sec window
alpine wraith
i wish we got resets fro thousand cuts shown too
hollow spear
That plus changing how the 4pc handles escalating blade during the 5sec window
Can't see them doing anything about that
Will probably just get wasted
swift tinsel
They can change it from a temporary 5 seconds of a 4-stack of EB to a separate buff than enables Coup so you can still accumulate stacks
Which would be much more intuitive than just bricking EB for the duration
hollow spear
I agree that this would be much better
But if it's more effort to do that then I have my doubts about them investing the time
swift tinsel
I mean anything would be more effort than the extremely lazy implementation it currently has lol
hollow spear
I can already see some weird storm to build shenanigans in our future
hollow spear
I mean anything would be more effort than the extremely lazy implementation it c...
The cynical take is that it being extremely lazy is exactly the reason why they chose it
A bug that players liked? Let's just make it a feature.
swift tinsel
Yeah my cynical take is it was the quick way to have a partially-functioning set just to have something ready for ptr
Maybe we see better version in a month
Who knows
brittle plinth
I appreciate you all, going into ptr and nerding it up so I can take your insights and barely do 35% of the potential.
swift tinsel
It’s fun to play around and find out if things work the way the say they do, if they work differently, etc
Like learning the 2pc can proc from itself
brittle plinth
I don't think I really appreciate the 2p
In practice, it's just a passive DMG proc?
Or do you have a way to play around it?
swift tinsel
It’s more unseen blades over time that do extra damage
So you get more coups
Which give you more coups because of the 4pc
Which gives more cdr
frail skiff
i need help with Sub rogue guys first time playing pve im in full pvp gear
swift tinsel
From outward appearance any unseen blade hit has a 30% chance, including the guaranteed ones from disorienting strikes
swift tinsel
i need help with Sub rogue guys first time playing pve im in full pvp gear
!guide
rocky ocean
brittle plinth
From outward appearance any unseen blade hit has a 30% chance, including the gua...
So 2pc rush
Sounds like it may synergize pretty well with rotation with no changes other than sending coups asap for 4pc
swift tinsel
Sounds like it may synergize pretty well with rotation with no changes other tha...
might shake up cd usage a bit because of the extra cdr for dance/sectech, will need to figure that out once 4pc is functional
alpine wraith
if you think it is busted you havent seen the others
will be funny when you get lots of resets tho
swift tinsel
I think the most I’ve gotten so far is 3 back to back UB’s, seeking the mythical 4
sullen hare
meanwhile davestalker is still yikes
patent lichen
They should give us fatebound instead <:OMEGAKEKW:829051106361344021>
1min Shadow blades
merry agate
1min Shadow blades
Yes please 
vale pine
meanwhile davestalker is still yikes
i am fine with it staying that way
lilac stag
Imagine them actually fixing shit and giving us an option. Sounds terrible.
swift tinsel
Best we can do is a tier set that doesn’t make sense
steel zinc
Its just sad that again our tierset is bugged most likely during ptr testing
raid testing I mean
steel zinc
Best we can do is a tier set that doesn’t make sense
The new tier sets look good imo for rogue
more cdr if it works faster pace more dances
sly shore
as long as it works on live
swift tinsel
But it can stay that way so we don’t play it
steel zinc
as long as it works on live
yeah that is the issue our current tier didnt work until the raid release
swift tinsel
Nah and like I mentioned earlier there’s a relatively easy way to implement the 4pc so it isn’t as obtrusive
steel zinc
the 4p is really nice as trickster sub
gamepaly wise just makes the spec faster and less "downtime"
swift tinsel
Yeah I’m looking forward to it when the bug is fixed
hollow spear
Go into flag with 7+ sht stacks -> rupture -> dance/sod -> strike -> sectec -> coup -> storm -> coup
You heard it here first
steel zinc
Go into flag with 7+ sht stacks -> rupture -> dance/sod -> strike -> sectec -> c...
why storm in st?
or you mean aoe?
hollow spear
If they don't fix the double coup
swift tinsel
Or guaranteed from disorienting
swift tinsel
But hey, danse stack
hollow spear
True
swift tinsel
Lmao
hollow spear
Might replace our backstab
With the rotten, you'd even prep for some bp spam afterwards in aoe
warm marlin
Storm to not waste a coup stack is very bad rn
But could be a lot better if it’s essentially double value
Pretty sure shadowstrike is just so much better that it’s not worth
hollow spear
Ig it depends on how much you need the extra escalating blade
swift tinsel
Damage wise for sure. Would have to look at how often you coup - Sectech or Sectech - coup to leverage how many EB stacks you’re missing out on
If it leads to one or two extra coups per fight, idk if it’s that worth
Depending on fight length ofc
Or they fix the way it works and we don’t have to worry about it
hollow spear
If it only ever happened once per flag window, youd lose one coup on a 5min fight basically, so two with the new tier set
lucid jackal
Pretty sure shadowstrike is just so much better that it’s not worth
This is likely what happens
U just overcap Eb procs
1, realz said he wants to tweak the two set
2, u just overcap resources idk if it's that bad
hollow spear
Yep
warm marlin
Again it might get a lot better with tier
haughty mural
True shadow strike slaps
warm marlin
Since they’re worth twice as much
swift tinsel
Hm, interesting about wanting to tweak 2pc
If it becomes less rng that’s cool
Not that it’s bad
haughty mural
Is there much room to tweak it ?
hollow spear
If on average you get another coup out during cooldowns it might be worth
warm marlin
If it only ever happened once per flag window, youd lose one coup on a 5min figh...
Iirc when I threw it in some scuffed sim to only do it with disorienting up during blades it was like -2%
hollow spear
But that's something the sim has to find out
warm marlin
So ya not great
hollow spear
The tweak should be that we see if it reset
haughty mural
Ya this would be great
hollow spear
Or strategically holding coup will be int, because you never know if you got a reset or not and might throw it away
warm marlin
I just want it to be fixed so I can test stuff 
swift tinsel
It’s like that now anyways
warm marlin
So much theorycrafting with no testability
swift tinsel
With thousand cuts resets
Yeah I just wanna get a feel for how it affects dances between flags
Or triple dance viability
hollow spear
For triple dance you probably need to hold coup for flag a bit
I'd love double dance between each flag window to become a thing
swift tinsel
But yeah consistent double dance between flags would be nice
warm marlin
Where you can’t hold coup for flag
Tfd allowing this to happen already will probably bridge the gap
Tfd for first and pooling for the rest
swift tinsel
Surely it’s fixed tomorrow or Thursday
Better yet, when I get home in a few hours
With a nerf to our 2pc down to 10%
Kiss/curse
steel zinc
1, realz said he wants to tweak the two set
2, u just overcap resources idk if i...
Where did he say that?
Also assa being a 90 sec spec with tier has me worried
fallow nimbus
Maybe just give us that little extra base cdr for dance instead of maneuvering around it with more cp gen every time
swift tinsel
Where did he say that?
He said it’s being judged a few days ago in outlaw channel
steel zinc
He said it’s being judged a few days ago in outlaw channel
That's kinda scuffed should be tuning sets for each spec and hero talent
Not something broad
swift tinsel
He was very non-specific so it could really mean anything
swift tinsel
There’s a bit of friction with how stacking works with the 2pc, like if you get to 4 but can’t finish yet and it resets so you waste
So maybe (hopefully not) they increase Escalating stacks more but can only consume 4
Idk
Even if it’s just 6 max stacks so you can’t pool
lucid jackal
That's kinda scuffed should be tuning sets for each spec and hero talent
It's both problematic for outlaw and sub so
It's getting a 2nd pass because it has conflictions with both specs
Seems pretty reasonable to me idk
hazy breach
Its way cleaner if they can have the same text for both specs
Without it being really bad or overpowered for one or the other ofc
lucid jackal
Ya
lucid jackal
I played it in S1
it's not as bad as ppl act like it is imo
It has some really dumb quirks with AOE
But at least for raid the biggest issue is that CDR is a bit awkward sometimes
I super prefer trickster but
It's not thaaaaat bad imo
swift tinsel
Nah it’s mostly the aoe that I don’t like, st is mostly tolerable
I just prefer the pacing of trickster
trim radish
logging off and back on to restore Thistletea is common knowledge here right?
swift tinsel
Sub doesn’t use tea
swift tinsel
Energy means next to nothing
Vs cold blood
Or supercharger
Energy is free during cooldowns, and outside of them the pace of the spec doesn’t really gain much if anything from tea
trim radish
forgive me for not having the talent window in front of me rn but cold blood is the one that gives you crit for one attack?
or is that a different thing
swift tinsel
Yeah
Which we use on a juiced-up secret technique
Tea is pretty feelycraft bait for sub
trim radish
eh, pass the thistletea logout restoration along to whichever spec uses it
trim radish
yeah but you can log out and back in to restore all the stacks in a fraction of the usual time
something like 12% the usual time to restore all 3
lilac stag
brittle plinth
The only time you need energy is when you have a builder that heals the mob you're attacking
lilac stag
let me just log out during gally fight to restore tea while playing assa. I’m sure that’ll be a dps gain.
trim radish
i meant between encounters but that's fucking hilarious
lilac stag
brother you’re lucky if 1/2 the raid isn’t afk during trash.
let alone using CDs
or you’re just resetting the boss
swift tinsel
Not me using a /follow macro between bosses
brittle plinth
is there a way to filter out certain servers in m+?
silent ruin
I liked this place when it was quiet
swift tinsel
It typically is
lilac stag
It still is
swift tinsel
haven't tried out the ds set for too long but symbols consuming marks feels very disruptive
I don't recall it being this bad in season 1
latent fog
No one likes deathstalker
i do
latent fog
honeslty i don't get the hate for it
short radish
its clunky
latent fog
how?
latent fog
shadow strike at 6cp can feel clunky sometimes yeah but like - that's enough to make you hate it?
short radish
yes
latent fog
damn
short radish
i hate things for a lot less than that
short radish
haughty mural
DS in aoe 
latent fog
DS in aoe <a:Aware:889021591776817172>
it's just a prio target tho
short radish
it's clunky
latent fog
and then if there's a fight where you wnated aoe you could just play trickster
since it makes evisc cleave
that was the gameplay in season 1 i felt like
ds does seem to be p heavily st focused
short radish
DS just doesnt make sense for what it does
like
it was built for assi
but it doesnt synnergise with sub
haughty mural
Yea perhaps it’ll be the play since they will tweak trickster 2p because of our outlaw brethren
short radish
it seems like it does on the surface
but like lingering darkness would never be taken
latent fog
but it doesnt synnergise with sub
i think it synergizes fine with both
short radish
the momentum of despair sorta makes sense
except that we dont spam shuriken storm
and we use rotten to apply FW anyway
haughty mural
Even if sstrike in ds does not cleave ?
short radish
CTW is also a bit whatever for sub
because we don't "need" to crit to get extra cp from storm
but yeah
its just clunky
latent fog
oh your're chilling
haughty mural
I just disagree
vale pine
you can play non rotten builds too
some of the talent designs on subtlety are def. a bit special
rocky ocean
they are subtle
vale pine
haha^^
rocky ocean
that's peak talent design, it's only downhill from there
fallow nimbus
The dev didn't know that dance doesn't count as stealth. By the way, does it work with subterfuge?
rocky ocean
you put bleeds on target and vanish. BOOM 2% leech huge impact
fallow nimbus
It's not about the impact but that it's another assa favoured change
warm marlin
It's not about the impact but that it's another assa favoured change <:kekw:6101...
it doesnt work with subterfuge
talent is actually worthless
short radish
nah man it works for assi
you pop bleeds on them
vanish
and walk away
watch your health bar go up
(and your dps bar go down)
dry plank
Was there a requirement to have minimum amount of talent node so devs come up with that shit? I think if there wasn’t a requirement we would have 10-15 per tree ))
tribal blade
how?
how about the fact that you can lose your entire hero tree if you die
and are unable to reapply it if you don't have a vanish
worst gameplay of all time
latent fog
worst gameplay of all time
Should i respond seriously💀💀 just pure hyperbole
tribal blade
i don't think you've actually seriously used DS then
or used it on sin
it's horrible
latent fog
Cool
runic trail
and are unable to reapply it if you don't have a vanish
Especially annoying on sin when you were using master assassin build
Or on fucking silken court where you have to constantly manage the mark
tribal blade
i could write an essay on why DS sucks
runic trail
That's always fun
latent fog
i could write an essay on why DS sucks
You could write an essay on anything doesn’t make the arguments correct - there are things in ds that are clunky but there are cases where you play ds that feel good in my opinion
And i think those outweigh the bad
My argument definitely isn’t that i like that its hard to reapply without vanish
I just don’t find myself in that situation enough to care
tribal blade
ok
never thought i'd live to see the day that someone is arguing with me on why DS is aids to play
but here we are
runic trail
Silken court prog still turned me off of being okay with mark, DS SUCKED on that boss
But then the only other option is FB which shoots itself in the head the second there's more than one target 
short radish
You could write an essay on anything doesn’t make the arguments correct - there ...
such as?
when does DS feel good
runic trail
It'd be better now with VV build being better and you having vanish spare but like, court with MA build? Hell. Hated it.
short radish
because clearing DN stack doesnt activate neurons for me
tribal blade
dude i love the fact that one of my guildies came back to the game, started playing sin, and then msged me with "HOLY SHIT I FUCKING HATE THIS HERO TREE WHY DOES IT SUCK SO MUCH I WANT TO KMS"
short radish
and thats probably the only time i can think it feels good
latent fog
when does DS feel good
I enjoy the gameplay around spending the mark itself
Looking forward to the new tier set with it
But that may end up feeling weird
Haven’t tasted it
short radish
yeah nah youre cooked mate
latent fog
👍🏽
tribal blade
thoroughly enjoy consuming DN as sub in aoe and it does nothing
or striking at 6 CP in dance
latent fog
I don’t play ds in aoe
short radish
consuming the mark down is just
additional combo points
i herd you liek combo points so i put some combo points in your combo points so you can clear combo points while you clear combo points
tribal blade
for sin it's even worse, get pulled out of stealth for any reason in M+ and can't apply mark if not talented in subterfuge
runic trail
I've never tried DS in sub, is it that bad?
tribal blade
die with DN up you lose mark
short radish
it's clunky
tribal blade
can't target swap
short radish
rogue player is probably the only rogue who enjoys it
even guy only goes as far to say "it's not that bad"
runic trail
I don't like it but it was better than fuckin' fatebound I guess
latent fog
rogue player is probably the only rogue who enjoys it
That’s how you know I’m the realest
short radish
you are definitely one of the rogue players of world of warcraft
tribal blade
how about it bugging and you lose your mark
runic trail
how about it bugging and you lose your mark
Me after sending a DN envenom on the flower bastards in workshop
Mark just fucking vanished
Thanks I guess
rocky ocean
That’s how you know I’m the realest
John Rogue why do we have 2% leech talent
short radish
thing is though they could make DS not absolutely terrible
latent fog
John Rogue why do we have 2% leech talent
No idea but also who cares
runic trail
thing is though they could make DS not absolutely terrible
Mark on the rogue, done
short radish
damn thats a crazy idea. we'll have to wait 4 more expansions for that though
tribal blade
the literal 1 change they could make is make mark applicable to any ST builder regardless of stealth
that fixes almost everything
short radish
the literal 1 change they could make is make mark applicable to any ST builder r...
also allow you to gain new stacks while having the DN buff/debuff whatever it is
rocky ocean
Hero talents should be the last row talents instead change my mind
short radish
so you dont have a gun to your head forcing you evis
even though you really want to sectech
tribal blade
also allow you to gain new stacks while having the DN buff/debuff whatever it is
yes that too
didn't they fix that for sub
short radish
ALSO REDUCE THE REQUIREMENT TO FINISHERS SPENT WITH 5 MORE OR MORECP
tribal blade
and then break it again
runic trail
Imagine if DN worked with sectec though
tribal blade
ALSO REDUCE THE REQUIREMENT TO FINISHERS SPENT WITH 5 MORE OR MORECP
PLS
maybe 6 for DN
would be fine
if they want to be like that
short radish
like why the fuck is one "maximum" and the other "5cp"
latent fog
Think that’s more of a sub feels like ass when you’re pressing backstab and cp starved more than a death stalker issue
tribal blade
this is what happens when it was the last hero tree to be worked on during ptr
short radish
so many small changes could be done
latent fog
I understand why they made it 7
short radish
that remove the clunkiness
short radish
Think that’s more of a sub feels like ass when you’re pressing backstab and cp s...
its shit for both specs
tribal blade
and then they had to spend the entire ptr just making DS actually playable
short radish
well it messes with finisher logic that has been a thing for ages
assi you finish on max cp-2 or something im pretty sure
latent fog
That’s fine
short radish
sub you finish on max cp-1
tribal blade
needing to use a strike at 6 cps as sub during dance is criminal
short radish
forcing max cp feels bad
latent fog
To you
tribal blade
with how bricked our energy is already
runic trail
I'm just happy now that I'm giving sub a shot that I can move to trickster, fuck ds, fuck FB
tribal blade
normally i wouldn't care about someone having a different opinion, but this one is so universally hated
you're kinda on your own here
haughty mural
Full crit mutilate on 6cps is also cool
short radish
honestly it feels like im playing a wack version of outlaw
haughty mural
short radish
because outlaw finisher logic changes based on your RTB buff
runic trail
In the world
And the hivemind agreed to this consensus
short radish
In the world
and they all hate it
latent fog
Oh no i disagreed with ten people!
short radish
yeah watch out the sub cabal is coming for you
latent fog
They’d lose
tribal blade
how about the fact that trying to fit 2nd sectec in 2nd dance as DS blows
short radish
probably
haughty mural
short radish
but yeah
its just clunky
could have slight adjustments to make it less clunky
but that'd require significant dev time which would be better used for fixing bugs
short radish
how about the fact that trying to fit 2nd sectec in 2nd dance as DS blows
honestly the 10% cdr on sectech
should just be baseline at this point
tribal blade
should just be baseline at this point
yeah it should be
short radish
again, another fix that could be done to make DS less clunky
tribal blade
it's not good that a hero tree fixes problems with a spec
they decided to fix several problems with sub in trickster kinda
short radish
yeah by just giving it cleave 
tribal blade
lol exactly
dire jolt
I want Deathstalker to be reworked around replacing a poison for Sin and Sub but that's me being weird.
latent fog
Bring back dust
tribal blade
imagine if nimble was softcapped
runic trail
latent fog
Make the spec not completely afk between dances
short radish
where you needed a spreadsheet
latent fog
Like
short radish
but the one where you just send on cd
nahhhhhh
i love the downtime in sub
im old man
latent fog
Shit that matters more than i died and have to press vanish
short radish
i need time to stretch my fingers and wrists mid combat
tribal blade
i kinda wish we could button spam a bit more outside cds
short radish
i kinda wish we could button spam a bit more outside cds
just bind detect to something
latent fog
i kinda wish we could button spam a bit more outside cds
Yup
dire jolt
I had so much hope for Deathstalker when it was announced for bright green plague visuals, but no, we got puke brown.
tribal blade
just bind detect to something
lol true
runic trail
I had so much hope for Deathstalker when it was announced for bright green plagu...
It has visuals?
dire jolt
lol
latent fog
That is why i think ds feels bad at 7 cause you are pressing backstab every 4 seconds
Praying to get to the next evisc
But then you get unlucky and have to bs again
haughty mural
i kinda wish we could button spam a bit more outside cds
I’d argue we could if new set stays like this (and functions ofc)
short radish
But then you get unlucky and have to bs again
no i dont care about that
tribal blade
I’d argue we could if new set stays like this (and functions ofc)
TRUE
short radish
i care when i have to press shadow strike again at 6cp
latent fog
Tf
short radish
i dont give a shit about what i do in downtime
short radish
average outlaw player
latent fog
In the middle of the fight
warm marlin
my ds dislikes are entirely related to being unable to reapply mark if you die/target goes immune (i.e. mists tree) and aoe on sub being cursed
tribal blade
it's an absolutely horrible feeling seeing yourself land on 6 cps in dance with DN up
dire jolt
Sub feels pretty fast unlike feral.
haughty mural
short radish
i like the defined periods of downtime with sub
warm marlin
i like the defined periods of downtime with sub
ye same
runic trail
Yeah, your moments of chilling and then your moments of going absolute ham
It's chill
tribal blade
cool thing about sin in aoe is you can button spam to all hell
warm marlin
assa downtime feels worse though
latent fog
Yeah, your moments of chilling and then your moments of going absolute ham
Is the absolutely ham in the room with us?
short radish
assa downtime feels worse though
yup
latent fog
Isn’t sub mid asf rn?
warm marlin
i feel like you always have the pressure of cycling dsm
its a fun minigame but being out of energy feels bad
short radish
it feels like there's downtime
warm marlin
on sub if im out of energy im just chilling
short radish
but how you manage the downtime kinda matters
rocky ocean
Is the absolutely ham in the room with us?
yes if you play 12s
runic trail
Is the absolutely ham in the room with us?
Ye
dire jolt
Sub feels pretty damn fun in delves. 😄
short radish
and you know what im okay with that
warm marlin
atm the cdr feels kinda relaxed to where you dont need to turbo stress over getting dance cdr for flag
so you're just backstabbing away 
vale pine
i wish the first dance did remove the 6 sec requirement
short radish
yeah and if you press backstab every 4 seconds
vale pine
and for storm to be lower energy cost
tribal blade
i wish the first dance did remove the 6 sec requirement
also fix the bug!
vale pine
also fix the bug!
that true
warm marlin
i walk out of melee for 5s, oh boy i get to regen energy for 5s and lose minimal dps
short radish
this is what peak performance looks like and no one can convince me otherwise
5 actions in 10 secconds
rocky ocean
literally vanilla gameplay
short radish
literally vanilla gameplay
return to monkee
tribal blade
this is what peak performance looks like and no one can convince me otherwise
doing the last boss of rookery as sub is fun
vale pine
^ subtlety between cooldowns
tribal blade
in order to force the group to do less damage between burns you can straight up afk
and auto the boss
and bank up CPs and sht
warm marlin
this is what peak performance looks like and no one can convince me otherwise
did you see my full sht maxing screenshot 
short radish
did you see my full sht maxing screenshot <:kekW:1154380282720436307>
i did not, send it
tribal blade
the last time i did rookery was in discord with my friends in the key
short radish
that has as much optional apm as sub
tribal blade
and i blew their mind with our first burn
short radish
was this also on rookery
tribal blade
got the boss down to ~58% on the first burn on a 17
warm marlin
was this also on rookery
no its sprocket
dire jolt
I know this isn't popular, but man I hope they slow Outlaw down some in Midnight
latent fog
I know this isn't popular, but man I hope they slow Outlaw down some in Midnight
Bro leave us alone man
Just play sub and sin
short radish
no its sprocket
wait why hold and auto attack there for that long
latent fog
Or anything else in the game
warm marlin
wait why hold and auto attack there for that long
sht stacking for cds
short radish
so you just go into flag dance with 14 stacks?
warm marlin
technically you should be at 7 cp and backstabbing
runic trail
Just play sub and sin
Would do if they reworked deathstalker
warm marlin
but i had to reapply rupture cuz it was going to run out
latent fog
Would do if they reworked deathstalker <:kekdog:907207037757296710>
You literally had to ask earlier if it’s that bad
warm marlin
so you just go into flag dance with 14 stacks?
that is the idea
runic trail
You literally had to ask earlier if it’s that bad
Sin perspective, ye, it's fuckin' bad
dire jolt
Would do if they reworked deathstalker <:kekdog:907207037757296710>
I want all 3 hero specs reworked to have just more in general.
runic trail
Sub, dunno, learning this spec still
dire jolt
Trickster doesn't feel like a trickster
tribal blade
Sub, dunno, learning this spec still
DS actually works quite well with the sin toolkit at least
just the mechanics are completely wack
but for sub it doesn't work at all
vale pine
its just poorly designed for subtlety
tribal blade
in order to make sub rogues actually play DS they had to buff the everliving hell out of it to make it compete with trickster
vale pine
trickster just makes more sense as it increases burst damage
warm marlin
do you do this for all flag gos now?
kinda
warm marlin
you have to do a bit of math on if you need to spend more to get your dances
but like if dance is 44s until full charges, and flag is 14s away
you're safe to just stack sht
warm marlin
backstabbing at full cp to proc unseen blades and such is also def good i just inted a bit on that fight
dire jolt
I do think there's a space to develop a Deathstalker all about Nature/Shadow damage and dots and making it work really well with Dark Brew, but alas.
haughty mural
backstabbing at full combopoints just sounds wrong in my head
short radish
im so keen to try out this new tech
where's that meme of sub in cds and sub out of cds
warm marlin
short radish
ty
warm marlin
ive been meaning to make one that's just auto attack soup lmfao
warm marlin
im so keen to try out this new tech
makes your flag windows just that much crazier
short radish
wait thats so much refund
runic trail
i really hope they keep this design of downtime for a while
The closer my WClogs damage graph is to the shape of a toblerone bar, the better
void hound
sht stacking for cds
isnt this only a gain when you sit on coup tho
vale pine
The closer my WClogs damage graph is to the shape of a toblerone bar, the better
which one
keen dome
Eventually it'll just be a flat bar
vale pine
isnt this only a gain when you sit on coup tho
it is a small gain but very small close to coup.
You can use rupture/snd but the pacing is already very slow there so can also just not use finishers.
vale pine
I've not bought toblerone in ages, are the gaps that big now <:HOLY:125089344018...
would need to buy one to test, so not sure
cloud rover
Eventually it'll just be a flat bar
So basically outlaw
keen dome
They returned to their OG shape (the 2019 one) iirc so who knows now
cloud rover
runic trail
which one
But the last one is just me after I fuck up my opener and just walk off the boss platform in shame
Then they throw me a pity Res at the end
keen dome
I wonder if Overcharge stuff is staying in 11.2
I guess it must due to the belt. Gonna make doing T11 delves day 1 extremely easy haha
vale pine
But the last one is just me after I fuck up my opener and just walk off the boss...
haha true
void hound
it is a small gain but very small close to coup.
You can use rupture/snd but the...
so youre saying you can sit on CP when you have 3 stacks of escalating blade before cds?
vale pine
well you just snd/rupture if needed
and else don't finish
there is not that much finishing going on because of how slow we generate cp
so you typically want to rupture once to refresh it so you don't need to during cooldowns
vale pine
its not about coup stacks
but rather about the tier set
or well its both in combination
you just get more benefits for doing more damage during your major cooldowns
void hound
ok so its always a gain regardless of coup stacks to pool cp to keep tier
void hound
ofc
vale pine
and as mentioned, doing rupture/snd is best there
doing no finishers at all is not optimal
warm marlin
ok so its always a gain regardless of coup stacks to pool cp to keep tier
from my own testing eviscerating regardless of cdr close to flag was only a very small gain below 1-2 tier stacks
so pretty much not worth doing
warm marlin
my other thinking is that while it is already a small gain in st, this sort of thing massively gains value if you're holding flag for add sets or something
since the potential damage loss of not eviscerating a boss in st is tiny compared to getting an extra evis or two during add spawns
for example, casting on cd on bandit results in flag overlapping with the reel assistant spawn at 3mins
so you can sit there stacking sht when boss is alone for more burst when adds come out with your cds
vexie, gallywix similar
tribal blade
yeah i can already see the value
i did it on last boss of rook and the burst becomes nutty
warm marlin
plus its kinda fun imo and leans into the sub gameplay style of afk outside cds into big burst
void hound
doing no finishers at all is not optimal
gotcha, that would have been the next question
makes sense
placid elk
vale pine
haha ^^
limpid sage
Anyone got a “hold Backstab while Coup is up and Sectec recently used” condition to be an increase in sims?
tribal blade
plus its kinda fun imo and leans into the sub gameplay style of afk outside cds ...
imagine if they changed TFD so it became if you enter true stealth OR you don't press any damaging globals for ~6 secs or w/e
short radish
imagine if they changed TFD so it became if you enter true stealth OR you don't ...
omg yes make that a thing
"don't press a damage global for 6 seconds"
that would acutally be so good
synnergises with sub gameplay as well
north schooner
bring back hemorrhage
wild hornet
t*rnado
short radish
short radish
i like saving money
vale pine
you would save money if you don't play wow
vale pine
oh, that's possible if you do boosting
short radish
yeah
and then because i play wow
it means i dont need to spend as much on other games
which means i save even more money
vale pine
tbh there are many f2p games out there you would not spend one $ on
short radish
yeah but they dont keep my attention for as long
lilac stag
not as much to constantly complain about in those.
vale pine
tbh i think wow release shedule is slow
cloud rover
Only game that had the same magic as WoW for me was Escape from tarkov
vale pine
but thats fine
short radish
my favorite part about playing wow is not playing wow
or at least not having to play it
it makes me feel
free
yes im aware how deranged that is
lilac stag
I wonder how many in here would still be playing if discord type communities weren’t a thing.
north schooner
and because you play wow you don't go outside and spend money there either 
lilac stag
going outside is free
north schooner
existing outside is free, doing anything costs
rocky ocean
World of Warcraft has begun
short radish
which is the same amount of 1 month wow sub
lilac stag
Going for a walk costs nothing. Get to enjoy the world (just like Warcraft)
Unless you don’t put pants on and get arrested. Then the walk costs money.
short radish
nah have to pay for repair costs (shoes)
short radish
then have to pay for bandaids
but yeah touching grass is more expensive than people make it seem
wow is a rather cheap hobby (if you exclude the cost of the pc)
cloud rover
wow is a rather cheap hobby (if you exclude the cost of the pc)
(which is still less than Gas/Car/Tickets)
lilac stag
wow is a rather cheap hobby (if you exclude the cost of the pc)
Yep. There are def other less expensive hobbies. It’s not crazy though.
cloud rover
And Monster receipts
short radish
lilac stag
and internet speeds you wouldn’t need if not gaming.
💰
short radish
electricity has gone up 10% this year
placid crown
Hello everybody. Playing sub for months now and I'm still facing some "embarassing situations" in the dps cycle. I screenshoted these situations, can you help me to deal with ?
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
lilac stag
tries to resist making embarrassing situation jokes
placid crown
I generally follow well these rules ! ^^
short radish
*tries to resist making embarrassing situation jokes*
look sometimes we shit ourselves at mcdonalds
it just happens
placid crown
placid crown
because your evis could still profit of the SoD buff
short radish
youre not in dance though
keen dome
Yeah, Rupture.
short radish
have you ever been hit by a wet noodle?
lilac stag
More embarrassing. Rupture isn’t on your target
placid crown
well SoD lasts longer than Dance
short radish
because that's basically how much your evis is hitting for
placid crown
(Dance just ended)
short radish
placid crown
Well when I start the cycle dps with all the buffs, i put a rupture first, but the 1st cycle with blades is so long that rupture ends to fade whereas i am back with SecTec + SoD + Dance available
short radish
rupture lasts at least 28 seconds
blades lasts 15 seconds
i dont believe you put rupture first
placid crown
and flag buff*
short radish
flag lasts 12+12 seconds
rupture lasts at least 28 seconds
i dont believe you put rupture first
if you run into this problem
just always do flag -> rupture
even if you have 20 seconds on ru pture
placid crown
i do but check at the end of my sentence
short radish
just do flag -> rupture
if rupture is going to run out inbetween your shadow dance
you press rupture
then you dance
keen dome
Why is that an embarassing situation
keen dome
you are out of cooldowns and dance so you are doing no damage. Just backstab and then coup
you do no damage anyway
placid crown
i mean there could be a rule that says "for a coup, always prefer to do it with 7 cp and not 6"
short radish
there's some minor min maxxing around saving coup for dance
but for you dont worry about it
runic trail
I appreciate the effort put into making the little images
wicked joltBOT
Pandemic takes up to 30% of the duration of a applied dot/buff and adds it to your new applied one. The duration depends on the new instance.
Example: Garrote (18 sec) can be extended by up to 5.4 seconds from an existing instance.
Note: Pandemic applies to most but not all debuffs/buffs
keen dome
So it's CDR farming and maintence.
placid crown
The thing here is that if i rupture, i will need maybe 10sec of backstab+melees to be at 6 or 7 cp to use coup, and maybe during these 10sec i will lost the stack of invisible blade that could have been back
but ok
short radish
The thing here is that if i rupture, i will need maybe 10sec of backstab+melees ...
yes, but you shouldnt have let rupture drop off to begin with
placid crown
I sometimes dont, and i'll show you with screens when
placid crown
lilac stag
Poor rupture
keen dome
I refresh rupture
lilac stag
ignored like a red headed step child
keen dome
It's almost at pandemic range anyway and if you don't do it then it's gonna fall off during the rest so I refresh rupture.
short radish
you rupture -> symbols+dance -> backstab -> sectech (no cb)
placid crown
by doing a rupture now, i feel like i lost 8 seconds of refreshing cd of sectec
keen dome
You are doing no damage anyway and you won't dance there anyway because of the cooldown on flag / blades. Although you seem to be overcapped on a Dance at that point so I assume this is in the second rotation of your between cooldowns and not the first.
lilac stag
my Dps eyes are bleeding from lack of rupture
keen dome
But just rupure.
placid crown
😄
lilac stag
or havoc
keen dome
You need to put a sticky note on your monitor, Ecologue. "PRESS RUPTURE"
lilac stag
You need to put a sticky note on your monitor, Ecologue. "PRESS RUPTURE"
*more than once
placid crown
ok ok. I thought the priority was "press SecTec with buffs if available" before "keep rupture up"
keen dome
I do like your little problem setup screenshots, though. Cute idea.
keen dome
ok ok. I thought the priority was "press SecTec with buffs if available" before ...
If buffs available, yeah. But in almost all of those you are outside your cooldowns so it's no damage time
Where Rupture will do more over the time.
lilac stag
I like how everyone read the scenario and I’m just looking at target debuffs on the first image.
keen dome
Haha
lilac stag
shocker. The underlying theme.
placid crown
I also feel like i have to many haste. So i'm " a lot " in situations where i have full combo points so it calls me to evis (let's say rupture is active) but it has f***ink risks to RIP my set stacks
short radish
doesnt maatter
keen dome
Don't care about stats.
short radish
its not an issue
placid crown
it's 16% and you tell me it's not an issue
short radish
okay its a slight issue
lilac stag
it’s not
placid crown
more than my rupture damages though 🤡
vestal escarp
keen dome
Worry about statting once you have the fundamental stuff down 'cos that'll be more of a gain than the stat worrying
short radish
lilac stag
If you have 16% haste you’re literally not playing the game at this point. Craft a new neck and 2 rings.
short radish
if you have 16% haste go play outlaw
keen dome
I would be curious to see your gear though because how do you have 16% haste
Unless Outlaw I guess?
short radish
I would be curious to see your gear though because how do you have 16% haste
problably haste rings/neck
lilac stag
I would be curious to see your gear though because how do you have 16% haste
Haste flask, enchants and gems
placid crown
HOOOOO no my bad, when i was saying "16%" i was talking about tier set bonus !!!!!
short radish
lilac stag
runic trail
If you have 16% haste you’re literally not playing the game at this point. Craft...
I need to check my haste, I'm in sin gear and the robot kept demanding haste
placid crown
so you tell me "dont look at this tier set" while i feel it huge
placid crown
<""""
short radish
not at your tier set
warm marlin
so you tell me "dont look at this tier set" while i feel it huge
you get lots of stacks in dance
lilac stag
You can look at it 15-20 seconds before flag, which may help your rupture uptime. 
short radish
you get lots of stacks in dance
okay lets not tell lies now
runic trail
You can't control your tier set, no point tracking it
placid crown
well a sectec put with 16% tier set bonus damage isn't it better than a lost of 4 sec of rupture ?
warm marlin
also it’s bugged where sectec doesn’t usually benefit
short radish
well a sectec put with 16% tier set bonus damage isn't it better than a lost of ...
its 50% chance to do 16% more damage
lilac stag
Rupture is more than that
north schooner
you are likely losing more than 8% by overthinking this
placid crown
received 🫡
short radish
PRESS RUPTURE
warm marlin
still 8% more dmg overall
Pooling tier stacks does make you do more damage in cds, but you can’t look at it as just doing 16% more damage since you’re paying the cost of less damaging finishers outside of them, plus there’s always the chance you don’t lose your stacks/insta proc a bunch in cds anyway
it’s not a big thing to focus on and you don’t really need to track it at all
short radish
lilac stag
placid crown
so.... "last" question. If you are at 45sec or more to have your flag+dance back, but you have SecTec + SoD+ Dance that are all 3 available. CB is not available. At how many seconds of getting CB back you wait that CB is back to use everything ? (tell me if it no't clear)
lilac stag
Pooling tier stacks does make you do more damage in cds, but you can’t look at i...
The irony here, if they pool it would force better rupture uptime and be a win x2
short radish
so.... "last" question. If you are at 45sec or more to have your flag+dance back...
only send cd during flag
on your 2nd sectech
please do not think any further
thank you
press rupture
warm marlin
The irony here, if they pool it would force better rupture uptime and be a win x...
trueing
short radish
applying to guilds is stressful
its like applying for jobs lol
placid crown
only send cd during flag
it's so cruel ! You have a huge cd of 45 sec and only uses it every 90sec !
short radish
it's so cruel ! You have a huge cd of 45 sec and only uses it every 90sec !
please do not think any further
thank you
press rupture
north schooner
you need to have 5 years TWW experience
placid crown
it embarasses me so well
wicked urchin
its like applying for jobs lol
especially when trying to jump ranks
short radish
stop tracking cb as well
wicked urchin
idk if i should wait a little bit to get my logs better still or not
short radish
idk if i should wait a little bit to get my logs better still or not
nah this is best time to apply
when rosters are being shuffled
lilac stag
people still look at logs?
wicked urchin
i've typed out a few but haven't sent them yet
every guild has rogues so its stress
but guess i just gotta apply everywhere
placid crown
OK OK sooooooo, my sim without any raid buffs tells me i can go to 2.25M dps on single target during 6mins. I did some tests with my "way" to play and went to 1.95M. I will do some tests now with the rule to use rupture better and tell you if it gives me better dps. Thank you for all your help 🙂
lilac stag
but guess i just gotta apply everywhere
Purge discord first. Then send out apps
wicked urchin
Purge discord first. Then send out apps
purge?
warm marlin
OK OK sooooooo, my sim without any raid buffs tells me i can go to 2.25M dps on ...
make sure you’re standing behind the dummy 
lilac stag
Delete all messages.
lilac stag
it’s actually funny some of the stuff you can find on applicants via class discords
north schooner
i need to look for a mythic guild, as outlaw, and i haven't raided since legion 
this will go well
runic trail
This is why I'm never leaving my current guild, they know how unhinged I am
short radish
people still look at logs?
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xyOyp_95gGlxM2PhnhTvKwi3EQPQsF8HF5pTqcSOJSk/mobilebasic
yeah make sure when you apply to guilds that you do a full on log analysis
mental dune
off the top of your head do you guys know how much damage you gain off standing behind target?
runic trail
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xyOyp_95gGlxM2PhnhTvKwi3EQPQsF8HF5pTqcSOJSk/...
Make sure to have them watch you do your rotation on target dummies for 30 minutes as well
wicked urchin
@lilac stag pm'd you quick
wicked urchin
i did both
lilac stag
Google bulk delete discord messages (assuming here)
wicked urchin
on it