subtlety

[lilac stag]

Hopefully he is either enjoying SV or quit

[left ledge]

My passion is dead now

[iron tundra]

i mean rogues are masters of stealth might be why we are so invisible 😉

[lucid jackal]

For me the fun part of rogue, and wow in general is just hitting buttons good

Dust too much think

[pliant topaz]

then youre eating good, cuz subs probably pretty great in terms of button hitting!

[keen dome]

the harder you hit them the more damage they do

[lucid jackal]

It really is

Sub rn for me is like, near perfect

Keyword near

Fw kinda stinky, ds stinky

But it's like, 95% for me

[pliant topaz]

I agree. gameplay feels great (in single target only imo). just not rewarding (atleast for me - purely subjective ofc)

but im also starting to think thats a common pattern

a lot of gameplay has been feeling "good to great"

just not rewarding

[warm marlin]

sub fun

[swift tinsel]

Just need to never look at meters or logs

[serene notch]

From my perspective it just feels bad when you spend hours/days learning something like dust something some integral to how your spec played and to have it stripped down. Makes all the effort feel like a waste, I felt the same when they made (rightfully) changes to arcane to not be a 25 sec sequence you had to send to nasa to calculate.

[swift tinsel]

Play for vibes

[charred sandal]

u cant deny, that having the hunter/monk treatment of spoiled child wouldnt be insanely good

[warm marlin]

monk?

???

[bleak night]

[modest sorrel]

edit your details to multiply your damage by 1.5x

[bleak night]

out of all the classes in the game why did we choose monk and hunter to quote as spoiled

[warm marlin]

yeah that was insane

[runic trail]

yeah, mage is right there

the easy target

[warm marlin]

mage, pala, shaman i might have even accepted recently

but MONK?

[swift tinsel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/124169701881282560/823082725296701450/ezgif-3-662cd802c0f4.gif

[charred sandal]

bro dark ranger has received more love that any rogue spec ever in 2 patches

how is that not spoiled

[native zodiac]

tbf we did get a rework 3 patches ago

[swift tinsel]

I’d use rework loosely

[lucid jackal]

I mean that's just the nature of live service games

[swift tinsel]

If you mean supercharger and death perception

[lucid jackal]

Ur gonna like things and they get taken away

[native zodiac]

nah i mean amirdrassil

(3 major patches i should have said)

[lucid jackal]

Tbf supercharger and death perception are so fucking good

[swift tinsel]

Ah that wasn’t finished so I don’t count it

I’m really happy with those two talents tho for sure

[pliant topaz]

I say this fully knowing what I want, but what changes did you want? for sin/sub cuz idk shit about outlaw. I asked this in sin a while back when they were bitching about no changes too. and the only response i got was waaa waaaa too much kb reliance, and now that kb reliance is gone too. so whats lefT?

[native zodiac]

the biggest problem this expa has just been our hero talents imo

but we could see that coming on release

[pliant topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/rocket-copium-cope-meme-token-gif-582361001471231527

jk maybe

[serene notch]

Maybe, I play a lot of fighting games, they constantly go through balance updates, but nothing so dramatic as what wow does to a class. Knowledge I’ve gained playing tekken 3 applies to tekken 8.

[swift tinsel]

Eh I’d say FW and the problems it involves with talents and whatnot are worse than hero talents, DS aside

[charred sandal]

the easiest change for me would be to make the class give me visual dopamine

[swift tinsel]

Oh yeah improved visuals would be lovely

But seeing FW improved or removed would be nice, delete Shadowed Finishers and fix dead talents and weird pathing

[pliant topaz]

sure, i think heroi talents were completly a wasted opporttunity to give the class some visuals. but generally not that easy to give rogue visual effects that match the theme (youre a stealthi guy, things are kinda suppoed to be subtle), its kinda part of their design fantasy.

[bleak night]

more about deathstalker than sin, make target swapping not a complete pain in the ass

[swift tinsel]

Do something about how our aoe works which is kinda related to FW

[shrewd lantern]

you mean mage?

[bleak night]

i also think they've removed way too much from assa st after removing so many buttons

but thats not really gonna go back so

[warm marlin]

ya idk gameplay wise maybe slightly more dance cdr, find weakness not requiring being behind the target, disorienting strikes being granted out of combat, maybe cold blood cd being reduced a little bit to make it easier to fit in between cds, shuriken storm applying unseen blade/not being so bad, escalating blade stacking to 8 and thousand strikes being trackable

[swift tinsel]

Merge flag and blades effects into one cd

[bleak night]

[warm marlin]

deathstalker rework

[pliant topaz]

thats kinda the whole point of the talent though. youre hitting 1 guy, and are supposed to be really good at hitting that one guy, again, its kinda their design philosophy for that hero talent that youre just hitting one guy and its not supposed to be easy to target swap (not that I agree with) but it is their design philosophy

they like fantasy of stuff

[bleak night]

idc if its the point of the talent

[pliant topaz]

and are willing to sacrafice gameplay for it to some extent

[bleak night]

its dogshit gameplay

[vale pine]

alright, think i updated the sims in the pins

looks like critical chain might be best now

[charred sandal]

sec tech doesnt feel like u even pressed the button, we got rupture when gloomblade was more thematic and the expansion worthy talents are a little X, swishy swashy transparent blades and a coin sound schizo simulator not to mention is impossible to play the htalents without weakauras

[lucid jackal]

Yeah fighting games are a bit More static than stuff like guilty gear or sf, or tekken like u said

[pliant topaz]

i mean sure, but these are generally kinda really small changes though. they dont really impact how you feel about the spec that much do they? also i think this is mostly a you /outlaw enjoyers thing. most sub players dont want more cdr on dance

but yeah these are just simple QOL stuff

[warm marlin]

I don't particularly care about dance cdr tbh

[vale pine]

nexus princess visuals for sub when?

[pliant topaz]

not actual rework

that requires a lot of dev time

[pliant topaz]

honestly fucking based

once again

[warm marlin]

i like the x2 dance -> x1 dance x1 symbols flow

[pliant topaz]

huge blizzard L

[swift tinsel]

I wouldn’t be mad if dance cdr made it so you double dance between each flag

[keen dome]

Ky;veza, queen fo Sub

[bleak night]

yeah sub not getting those void animations is sad

[blazing plover]

Dh is getting them before sub.
Sadge

[bleak night]

instead just continue farting on people

[warm marlin]

yea either this or just a bit more comfortably getting dances for flag

[bleak night]

and supposedly summoning clones that no one can actually see

[warm marlin]

but most of my wants are qol

and visual stuff obviously

[vale pine]

it feels a bit lame tbh

[swift tinsel]

Same, at least for single target I don’t want to see a big shakeup of the gameplay

[vale pine]

if they make dh have shadow/void theme

but well

[blazing plover]

Fucking dh boss even uses the rogue tier helm.

[serene notch]

Sorry art team too busy working on the 8th re-color of that mount you don’t like

[bleak night]

rogue pvp shoulders too

its a terrible transmog though

they should be ashamed

[chrome palm]

if youre talking about target swapping, i feel like it would just be better for mutilate/ambush to apply deathstalker mark, having to wait for darkest night is really clunky since you have to reapply rupture/caustic before consuming it, and theres still bugs with randomly not getting darkest night to reapply

[swift tinsel]

Portergauge or whatever their name is at wowhead needs to stop feeding the speculation train

[keen dome]

I'm gonna become a writerand just put non-stop "Rogue tank spec" speculation post suntil I make it real

[bleak night]

speak it into existence

[swift tinsel]

It’s called manifesting okay

[keen dome]

"This dagger has a small shield edge on it so that means rogue spec"

[swift tinsel]

I mean parry is thematic

[bleak night]

fencer with a main gauche

ez rogue tank

[hexed sluice]

Onehander Mainhand, parryign dagger offhand

make it real

[swift tinsel]

Outlaw tank confirmed

[hexed sluice]

[swift tinsel]

The post says Main Gauche

[bleak night]

outlaw wants a new mastery anyway

[warm marlin]

also any sub changes probably are going to come with losing our special hidden raid buff

[bleak night]

we can take it

[warm marlin]

which would be quite sad

[bleak night]

for the tank spec

[charred sandal]

yeah mage and pally is a meme and too obvious... i wanted to go more on the route of at least getting fun stuff added and feeling like the devs care about the class feeling fresh every now and then... but yeah i kinda retract monk from the statement.... hunter stays tho

[bleak night]

but if a raid buff falls in the forest and nobodies around to hear it did it ever actually exist

[keen dome]

tank rogue uses a two-handed sword, duh

guts is a rogue

[swift tinsel]

Nah they just call it Death Grip and make mobs immune

[bleak night]

tank rogue just has a big fuckoff mace

bouncer of the thieves guild type shit

[keen dome]

hah

[shrewd lantern]

mage and lock are golden children of wow

[keen dome]

Mage and Paladin, imo

[swift tinsel]

Boomkins the whiny cousin

That smells like pee

[shrewd lantern]

so whos the weird uncle

[bleak night]

paladin wasnt until recently

[keen dome]

hm, trueeee.

[bleak night]

but since the df rework its fair to call it the golden child

unless you play holy

but healer lmao

[swift tinsel]

Idk holy has been getting lots of love recently

Def had a rough patch early on

Like

[bleak night]

they get a bunch of changes then everyone continues hating it

[swift tinsel]

Really fucking rough lol

[bleak night]

though idk the state now

[swift tinsel]

I only listen to ellesmere and he seems happy

[hexed sluice]

how to get them to share agility cantrip weapons with druids

[swift tinsel]

Shaman, esp enhance, has been eating real well lately too

[bleak night]

enhance being op then getting a rework to be even stronger

was so funny

[vocal wolf]

Why is this consistent, there is always that one guy lol

[bleak night]

i dont think ive ever smelled a druid

not knowingly anyway

im sure ive passed someone once who played druid

[vocal wolf]

Druid players themselves aren't all bad, it's Boomie mains

[lucid jackal]

Getting a rework isn't inherently good

Like I said ppl don't really fw the dk rework right now

[pliant topaz]

based true and real

[vocal wolf]

Just ask spriest

Kekw

How many reworks are they at now

[vale pine]

the best way to rework a spec is with talent updates and qol improvements

[lucid jackal]

Yeah like, would it be great if every sub issue people had got fixed in a rework yes. But that's impossible to achieve

[vale pine]

a full rework would just make sub a ret paladin spec, a lot of newer designs are very beginner friendly and simple

[lucid jackal]

Let's say they make the spec less burst and more flat. Ppl who like burst are now upset

[vale pine]

which does not fit the theme of the spec

[lucid jackal]

I mean they havent broadly speaking, dumbed down rogue yet, and I don't really expect them to

Until wow 2

It seems to be the case that they are fine with rogue being a li'l odd

[warm marlin]

based on their recent morgan day interview they are okay having complex specs on triple dps classes where one of the specs is simple (i.e. assa)

so outlaw/sub are probably relatively safe

[swift tinsel]

This is 100% my biggest fear for sub

So I really hope they never do a full rework of how the spec functions

[warm marlin]

part of why ret pala is drool level and they are attempting to simplify spriest (by their words) is because dps priests/palas dont have elsewhere to go so it has to be accessible

[vale pine]

they did to a certain degree

[warm marlin]

assa will simply tank it for us

[vale pine]

e.g. tea is now auto activating

and they reworked er to reduce buttons

assassiantion is also fairly simple in gameplay now

not saying thats bad or good

[bleak night]

assa went from pressing tea/shiv/vanish all at different times in kingsbane to just

not doing anything

press shiv

press envenom

gg

[swift tinsel]

That’s fine if they have their dots to maintain in the background to give it just a tiny bit more depth than this ^

Imo

[bleak night]

idk, im not a fan

it was already a simple spec

[vale pine]

TBH i think i liked the more distinct gameplay design in legion

[bleak night]

and its just even less engaging now

[vale pine]

and bfa

[lucid jackal]

To the degree or ret, or bm, not even close

[vale pine]

oh no

i mean ret also

[warm marlin]

its weird how assa is keys in a nuanced difficult spec (at least with cleave havent really played bleed) and then assa in raid is 2 button zugzug

[vale pine]

got chanegd in TWW to be even simpler

my gf commented on it

[swift tinsel]

See and I find that disparity interesting

[bleak night]

i mean keeping divine hammer uptime as high as possible took some gameplay

but now they're changing that too so gg

[swift tinsel]

Vs sub that does not have that at all

[vale pine]

something along the lines of her not plaiyng ret anymore because she wants to actually use cooldowns and not afk

[charred sandal]

i would like them to do the hunter treatment, put deathstalker on pair to its fantasy, give us QoL to stuff that might feel clunky and add new mechanics that feel refreshing but not invasive... hell just hire someone that cares about rogue fantasy

[swift tinsel]

Deathstalker rework would be its own thing bc it would have to be done with sin moreso in mind bc that’s ‘their’ tree

[lucid jackal]

I don't think sub has that many invasive mechanics rn

[swift tinsel]

Only new mechanics I would ever want to see with this iteration of sub would be regarding FW

[lucid jackal]

It's very, I wouldn't say intuitive. But it all makes sense

[vale pine]

tornado is a rly outdated talent

secret is everything but intuitive

[swift tinsel]

Yeah, could reference our convo previously about almost 25% of our talents being bad

[vale pine]

then there is the entire buff/debuff bloat with find weakness/fazed/flawless form/unseen blade

the cooldown management does not feel any natural to any non sub player

symbols without dance?

why

the entire cdr concept fucks new palyers even more

[lucid jackal]

Like I said, I wouldn't say intuitive but it all works

It's cohesive

[swift tinsel]

I honestly haven’t even looked at the blizz cd manager for sub lol

[vale pine]

"so you say i don't have dance because i was away from the boss? what do i do now?"

[swift tinsel]

Tried the one button on ptr earlier for shit and it never cast rupture or blades lol

[warm marlin]

fazed/fw are mostly irrelevant to track unless you are deeply minmaxing imo

[charred sandal]

i kinda just started playing other classes cuz to me its just been repetitive af since ages... i wasnt even playing rogue and i joined back here out of spite reading the new patch notes and only seeing "Killing spree update" 💀

[lucid jackal]

This is why I said "not intuitive"

[warm marlin]

flawless not worth tracking in raid

[vale pine]

its not

[lucid jackal]

Oh okay

[vale pine]

debuffs have diffrent timers

[lucid jackal]

The debuff don't do anything

[swift tinsel]

Yeah that’s irksome

[vale pine]

tornado does not work well with shadowcraft and baldes

[lucid jackal]

Tracking fazed is worthless

Tornado is a bad talent who cares

[vale pine]

unseen blades is random and has no indicators

thats not rly cohesive

[lucid jackal]

If u play the good talent build, sub is very functional

Ik bad. Low impact talents exist

That doesn't detract from the specs core

[formal helm]

idk about rupture, but major cds are not being used on it ever
as in on any spec

so no blades is intended

iirc

[hazy breach]

It casts flag

[swift tinsel]

Interesting choice

Yeah

Just not blades

[formal helm]

ye

apparently it also does convoke on feral

but not the other major cd

berserk or what was it

idk

[swift tinsel]

Yeah

Berserk

[formal helm]

so it's just ...weird?

[hazy breach]

Its not though

Numerically that is

[vale pine]

^

the problem is its not cohesive to use that word

[swift tinsel]

It’s just obtrusive

[vale pine]

its not fitting well

[charred sandal]

and thats completely fine... cuz rogue is not an alien to its core concept, the thing is the htalent is kinda unplayable visually without an external tool tracking information, like u can make darkest night have visual input.... same for clear witnesses

[vale pine]

it has a lot of problems

being cohesive would mean it woudl work and interact with other talents in a meaningful way

[bleak night]

shuriken tornado reworked to empowered spell next patch

[swift tinsel]

Could see it

Slicing Winds, Breath of Sindragosa

Tornado next

[formal helm]

dw, it's gonna be bp

empowered bp

[swift tinsel]

Heresy

Melee empowers while moving please at a speed penalty

[lucid jackal]

Bad talent gameplay

[vale pine]

i think you just used the wrong word, cohesive has a very diffrent meaning to what you wanted to discribe i feel

[lucid jackal]

Okay

Whatever word u want to use

I don't really care

[hazy breach]

Well ye but bad talent gameplay makes the gameplay worse no?

[lucid jackal]

I don't define cohesion as "has lot of talents that do lots of things in diverse ways"

[lucid jackal]

Yes but I never talent it

Don't need it for raid or 4fun keys

All that counts

[vale pine]

i mean you picked the word

without seemingly understanding the meaning

coherent design is at principle something you try to fit pieces together as perfect as possible

functional, which was the word you used after

just means its implemented in the game

and functions

subtlety at the very core is "fun", but its not because its pieces ended up carefully crafted.
It is because we found ways to make them work together in a logical way which plays decently well

[lucid jackal]

I just said I don't care about the word

If u don't think coherent is apt, okay

[vale pine]

no its fine

lets discuss it

I don't define cohesion as "has lot of talents that do lots of things in diverse ways"
How do you define it

[lucid jackal]

I define it as it's fun

And it works

And isn't dumb

[charred sandal]

coherent basically

[bleak night]

https://tenor.com/view/todd-howard-it-just-works-bethesda-this-all-just-works-gif-20598651

[lucid jackal]

Exactly

If a spec feels good, it's vibes

I can't define good vibes

I can't argue against your vibes

But vibes are vibes

[bleak night]

Well I was memeing, I'm definitely more on fuus side here

Sub is fun but it's definitely a bit unweildy

[hollow spear]

My problem with the "I don't have choices" argument is that you'll choose the cookie cutter talents anyways

[charred sandal]

what u guys think about the concept of a CD being like a previous iteration of Touch of death from monk where a % of the dmg done within its duration its then replicated at the end of it?

[lucid jackal]

Sounds bloated and probably too strong for current sub to have

[hollow spear]

They would have to make talents that are comparable powerlevel-wise and change how you play the spec to a degree

[lucid jackal]

I mostly agree but it is cool that outlaw or sin has a few builds to pick from based on vibes

[bleak night]

Thats just sectec with more steps

[lucid jackal]

Yeah it's like "what if sub had another button that made Cd's stronger" like, idk, sure but

[hollow spear]

kinda hard to make sub's cds even stronger with how bursty the spec is

[lucid jackal]

I don't think sub needs another redundant button

That's what I think

[charred sandal]

i mean it just came from the idea of maybe Deathstalker mark working with something like it instead of the 3 applications via CP spent not adding another button

[hollow spear]

A huge part of our power budget already sits in flag/shadowblades, cannot really put more into it

[bleak night]

If anything combine flag and blades

[jaunty heath]

I still like the idea of 45 seconds flag but that’s just me, that’s if they both exist

[hollow spear]

I like blades being baked into dance

and nerfing the % damage thingy to compensate

I dislike pressing a builder at 5 cp, but the sim tells me to

[bleak night]

Nah that would make main burst weaker, I want my sec tec during cds to kill a small country

[jaunty heath]

Just crit a supercharged envenom instead

[bleak night]

[vale pine]

something can be fun or you can vibe withit without parts not working well together

[swift tinsel]

if my sectech isn't a purple orbital strike I dun want it

or a slightly poofy flourishy orbital strike ig

(make it Queensbane animation you cowards)

[lucid jackal]

I think sub works well together rn so idk

[jaunty heath]

Agreed I said earlier, discussion is nice but all I want is my big boom being bigger boom

[swift tinsel]

I want to see it period

lol

[lucid jackal]

I don't think "having too many debuff like fazed and unseen blade and flawless form and find weakness" detracts from how well it works rn

[jaunty heath]

That too

[hollow spear]

The problem with these debuffs is that they're kinda pointless

Only make you feel bad if you get bad rng

And there's not much to play around

[vale pine]

Just a few examples, there are a lot more

• Find weakness, fazed and flawless form don't have the same timings
• Symbols of death / Shadow Dance don't have the corretc cd /cdr to fit well together, i give you some examples of some situations this creates:
  • Solo Symbols casts
  • Not having Shadow Dance due to downtime on bosses when you would have it with high uptime
• Shuriken Tornado with Shadow Blades, Sht and Shdaowcraft

every one of these examples create situations which are not ideal for your vibe

they don't flow well

[lucid jackal]

I think it's cool that symbols and dance are finally desynced in a way that make them their own button

[bleak night]

I was gonna post a cooked suggestion but I'll save that for another time

[vale pine]

cold blood similar, its very tricky to optimize

while its fun to have this friction on some talents

[lucid jackal]

It's not that tricky to optimize tho

It's "use it with second sectec

[vale pine]

like pick tornado

if you think about outlaw

is there a talent with similar problems you can think of

[lucid jackal]

Current killing Spree

[vale pine]

but killing spree's issue is the animation lock

[bleak night]

It's a bit cursed that there's so little leeway with cb usage that it's often recommended to treat it as a 90s cd

[vale pine]

its not like

you need to hold killing spree for most of the time

to find a spot when every cd is down

because its else compromising other systems of the spec

KS problem is functional in getting killed using it

you don't wait for specific rolls and ar to be down to use it

[warm marlin]

CB being even a 40s cd would make it much easier to optimize

[vale pine]

It does not work in a way thats hard to read for the player and hard to execute well

[lucid jackal]

Well it'd be identical u just get 1 extra cb every cd set

It wasn't long ago that there wasn't even this optimization so idk

[warm marlin]

yeah but you can do that right now

[lucid jackal]

The rules Eb and flow

[warm marlin]

its just tight timing

[lucid jackal]

Ya but I'm saying it wasn't long ago where we didn't even bother tracking cb

[vale pine]

yes and i still got hate

because i did say using the macro was fine

when the opimization was 0.3% dps

[lucid jackal]

I mean I don't really fw cb much either so

[vale pine]

the change was the tier set

the new set in a sense just does what the old one does

in a diffrent way

[warm marlin]

#subtlety message thoughts @lucid jackal ?

[lucid jackal]

Not all, but about half of that I agree with

[vale pine]

there are so many qol changes you can do

removing the timer from tfd,
making debuffs same length,
increasing dance cdr slightly to make you not run out of charges so fast or suffer if you have downtime.

[warm marlin]

i havent had many issues with the debuff thing to be honest

my wa pack tracks all of them and i think i only really look at FW sometimes

coup probably shouldnt require fazed to give flawless form so you wouldnt track that at all

[lucid jackal]

• Dance cdr is a slipper slope of flat profile and also changing the level of expected dances, where the cdr problem exists but instead of x dances expected per cd set it becomes y

• fw is dated it could go and nothing is lost really

• disorienting strikes granted out of combat would be too good for outlaw in dungeons probs, but the prepull shit is dumb I agree

• cb cd going to 40 is probs fine

• I don't super fw 8 Eb because it just makes our burst more degenerate and more gameplay would likely centralize around setting up for 4+ coups in a cd window. Feels a bit excessive

• I don't have a good argument for it but I like unseen blade being untrackable, I like it being mostly reaction based

[vale pine]

cb could be passive

[lucid jackal]

Sure

[vale pine]

just make it trigger from a cooldown

[lucid jackal]

I'm mostly indifferent to cb so

[vale pine]

like symbols

[warm marlin]

disorienting prepull just feels like it massively reduces opener variance

it is very nice qol

[vale pine]

or dance

[hollow spear]

I hate disorienting prepull

[warm marlin]

yeah its turbo cringe when you dont get it off and you're opening to proc coup in opener

it should just be passive so the degeneracy doesnt exist

[vale pine]

Ub untrackable does not rly make much gameplay diffrence

is there something for outlaw

where you fish for procs?

[hollow spear]

Some bosses kinda give you some time to proc it before a wipe. But some just instagib you and you can't get out a sectec.

[lucid jackal]

Nah but I do like the reactive gameplay to where let's say I'm at 3eb stacks and my next SS gives me coup and my sectec is 15 seconds. If I just knew beforehand it's less reaction and it's more "preplanning"

[warm marlin]

outlaw has the option of pressing other builders to avoid proccing it to overcap

[lucid jackal]

Mostly a personal thing

[warm marlin]

or to use the procs asap to get the icd rolling

[vale pine]

i mean

you in both cases do the same thing

you just do more or less damage based on random procs

wouldn't rly call that reactive gameplay

[lucid jackal]

No because one is reacting to a proc as it happens the other is preplanning for a proc expecting it to happen

It's a diff vibe

[hollow spear]

I can already smell us going back to bp to hold coup for the double during flag angle

[warm marlin]

its more likely to just not finish at all imo

if they dont change escalating blade youll be wasting stacks trying to do sectec coup coup in burst

[lucid jackal]

Think realz already alluded to fixing The trickster 2 set

[vale pine]

i mean... we technically can optimize for the tier set already

[lucid jackal]

Since it's a bit cluttered for outlaw too

[runic trail]

Opener is sort of down, I need to get a bit better at planning around between cooldowns, keep ending up at a point where I'm maybe 10 seconds shy of having shadow dance up. I'm getting there.

[hollow spear]

If we still have enough cdr to get two dances between all flags

[vale pine]

where we use no evis close to our 90 sec cooldowns

so the optimizations are there

[warm marlin]

it's not exactly a tier set specific issue, if you end up holding coup for flag then your first 3 finishers are sectec, coup, coup, without SHT stacks prepped youll have to build between sectec and coups and waste unseen blade procs from disorienting in the process

[runic trail]

I think I just need to practice more to get the flow down, but, progress.

[vale pine]

unseen blade is ~5% of our damage

so the 30% additional damage to that is ~1-2% dps possibly

30% of a cooldown refresh means we get some amount of extra procs

4p basically just means we double the coup uses

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hollow spear]

Stacking to 12ish sht stacks might have to become the play

[vale pine]

but its hard to know how much this is

[hollow spear]

Double coup will be a natural buff to our flag window, so might as well

[warm marlin]

its mildly funny because stacking sht in that way is already good with our current tier set

[vale pine]

because you get more coup procs from 2p

and coup is already like 5-7% of our damage

so 4p could be quite big

[warm marlin]

its also infinity flawless form stacks in cds

[hollow spear]

All set boni are quite big

[vale pine]

hmm

[hollow spear]

They're really shooting for the stars with the new tier set

[warm marlin]

like if you go into a cd window with coup already prepped, 14sht, you're getting minimum 3 sectecs, there's a world you coup 6 times in 3 dances

[vale pine]

i mean lets say we get 30% more procs

[warm marlin]

6 coups

[hollow spear]

Eleems 15% estimate might even be conservative

[warm marlin]

the feedback loop of more coups -> more cdr -> more sectec -> more unseen blade procs (with 30% refund chance with 2p) -> more coups is kind of insane

[vale pine]

ye i would probably be around that number too

[hollow spear]

I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up at around 20% with some proper optimisation

[vale pine]

2p just feels not that good

because it will be not that high in dps

the 4p just skyrockets it

like 2p might be as low as 3%

and 4p adds 12% on top

[warm marlin]

ya the 2p is dog on its own

[vale pine]

which is still not that impressive

[warm marlin]

this is also my (uneducated) guess

[vale pine]

there might be some benefits from extra dance casts we miss in the estimate

[hollow spear]

I think the flawless stacks are going to account for a whole lot

[vale pine]

ye

[alpine wraith]

kinda

[warm marlin]

its hard to evaluate the spymaster trinket further pushing damage into cd windows as well

[alpine wraith]

maybe we triple dance

[vale pine]

higher flawless form uptime too

[alpine wraith]

move blades a bit later

just send 24 secs of dance

[hollow spear]

And triple dance yes

I mean, we're already super close in our opener with tfd

It might be doable with double coup

[alpine wraith]

you actually can triple dance

[warm marlin]

you do chain 3x dance with tfd

[alpine wraith]

with tfd

just need to refresh rupture once

[hollow spear]

Yeah, tight but doable

[warm marlin]

nah its doable without

[alpine wraith]

no i mean you want to refresh rupture

[hollow spear]

No

Supercharged rupture is enough

[warm marlin]

you have infinite duration from presymbols

[hollow spear]

I think

[warm marlin]

first rupture isnt refreshed until like 40s

[alpine wraith]

actually yea

[hollow spear]

During later flags you'd have to rerupture probably

Depending on cdr I also rerupture now to not drop tier set

[alpine wraith]

i just got used to that yea not many times i have done the insta dance

but even if sec tech is 10 secs it is fine

[vale pine]

like don't forget

[alpine wraith]

on that last one

[vale pine]

the tier set this tier is 13%

[alpine wraith]

you can evis then sec tech

[vale pine]

so going from 13 to 15

is not that much

[alpine wraith]

most of the power will come from spymaster trink

[hollow spear]

My money is on more than 15

[alpine wraith]

forever caged from trinks

[warm marlin]

22% believer (dont quote me)

[hazy breach]

More like 12%, since the shadow part doesnt work on sectech most of the time

[alpine wraith]

or wait until they nerf it

[hollow spear]

They'll 100% nerf the trinket

[hazy breach]

Idk dont think so

[warm marlin]

spymaster was allowed to be completely busted in nerubar as well

[vale pine]

haha ye, next tier set will def. be higher than this one. But its hard to know how much

[hazy breach]

Like the on-use at 90s is slightly less than unnerfed transmitter

[hollow spear]

Thought it was more

[hazy breach]

(at the same ilvl)

Unnerfed

[alpine wraith]

and procs extra dmg

[warm marlin]

its more than nerfed which I did my tests with

[alpine wraith]

it is like coral

electric bogalooo

[hollow spear]

Ah yeah, ilvl for ilvl

[hazy breach]

So its like transmitter, except you cant use it on pull

[hollow spear]

Transmitter was like really good for us

[alpine wraith]

also for once we dont lose power on delaying cds a bit

like for ex in gally

[hazy breach]

and instead you gain more power if you need to delay

[hollow spear]

Didn't the damage proc account for like 4% @warm marlin ?

[alpine wraith]

so now you can keep up better with phases and dynamic bosses

[warm marlin]

its hard to evaluate

[alpine wraith]

you can actually get 2 stacks or so on pull

more than nothing

[warm marlin]

i didnt have addons on ptr but I saw someone else's test on outlaw where it was like 5% of their damage

[hazy breach]

But ye strong trinket, s2 just has pisspoor dogshit trinkets all around

[alpine wraith]

if we triple dance

[warm marlin]

obviously some potential skill impact different spec etc.

[alpine wraith]

ticking sac coming back too

time to remember to change targets again!

[vale pine]

they had to nerf transmitter to not be played

so ye

[hollow spear]

The goal has to be that we're the strongest melee spymaster spec

[vale pine]

we even played it after nerf

[hollow spear]

If not imma cry

[alpine wraith]

nah we will get rolled but dont worry

our heart is secure

[warm marlin]

notably this one also lasts 20s unlike transmitter's 15s

[hollow spear]

Not in we are top dps

But in we gain the most

[warm marlin]

which lines up even better with triple dance

[alpine wraith]

we will do the secret tech of not using it 1 phase

then using it on next one

BAM

[hazy breach]

Ye thats fair, but not being able to use it on pull is definitely a big downside

Unless the fight is very long

[alpine wraith]

problem with trink is that it stacks fully quite fast

relatively vs spymaster

[hazy breach]

and you get griefed if you ever die

[alpine wraith]

that one took like 5 mins+

[hollow spear]

Delay shadowblades and trinket

And off you go

[warm marlin]

maybe they'll increase max stacking time to 3mins

[hazy breach]

That would certainly be nice

[alpine wraith]

would be cool

[hollow spear]

After how afraid they were of our burst

[alpine wraith]

and yea using it with 2 stacks then on cds or if we need to move things

[hollow spear]

I'm not sure what all of this means

[alpine wraith]

getting a bit more power will be nice

i mean likely someone was getting flashbacks

and we just took the hit

[hollow spear]

They omeganerfed out tier set this season because of the burst and gave us more baseline to compensate

Wondering what will happen for next season

[vale pine]

they also nerfed secret after that

[hollow spear]

Yeah, they wanted to make sure

Kinda overkill of course in hindsight

Perception was really against us thanks to transmitter

Nobody had hoc yet and we popped off

(there were other factors of course, but that one was big imo)

[haughty mural]

And now we have the salad

To be fair our tier set was that strong

Pre nerfs

[hollow spear]

Yeah the nerf was justified

We could argue if them moving power into baseline was strictly necessary

[alpine wraith]

nerfed tier set twice

[hollow spear]

But they probably didn't like the idea of a 20%+ tier set

[swift tinsel]

lost % per stack and total number of stacks

kachow

[alpine wraith]

we have had more than 40% tier sets

more than once

that is not the issue they just didnt like the dmg profile

[hollow spear]

It's not about what we had

It's about how it compares that season

[alpine wraith]

and other tiers were also more than 20

and stayed like that

[lucid jackal]

whos?

[hollow spear]

?

[alpine wraith]

although they did change them after some time

then reshuffled and buffed the people below

[vale pine]

i mean secret has just been nerfed multiple times over the duraiton of DF and tww

[hollow spear]

They clearly didn't want these outliers

[alpine wraith]

but devoker and hunter had those

and also dk

[vale pine]

blizz wants damage to be more spread out between talents

[alpine wraith]

then they nerfed blood beast two times

[vale pine]

its why coup does work with evis

and not secret

[alpine wraith]

and tweaked their dmg profile too

[hollow spear]

But that's not tier set

[vale pine]

its very obviouse game design they want to enforce

[bleak night]

Secret coupnique when

[alpine wraith]

and why we have 10 things that buffs builders

[lucid jackal]

The most valuable a tier set this tier is BM at 18..? I think

[alpine wraith]

that keep getting buffed

[hollow spear]

I dunno

This "they won't let us burst angle" is kinda weird

[lucid jackal]

A spec having a over 20% dps increase from tier set is probably too high

[hollow spear]

We have omegaburst

We do literal tank damage outside of them

[lucid jackal]

Especially when u look at actual sims, its still one of the highest burst specs in the game, despite not being tuned as high as BM

[hollow spear]

There's not so much burst left to give

[lucid jackal]

It still peaks just as high as some of the highest bursting specs, especially outside of lust

I dont think any spec burst as high as sub outside of lust

Ik in lust MM/dev will do more

But like, subs burst is crazy

[hollow spear]

Outside of lust we're probably still top dog

[alpine wraith]

feral boomkin and uhdk can get close or do more

but it can be rng

[lucid jackal]

I think outside of lust no spec bursts higher

[hollow spear]

Outside of lust?

[alpine wraith]

same with frost dk

yea

[hollow spear]

Uhdk probably not

[alpine wraith]

but i mean convoke is peak rng

[lucid jackal]

Dev opener burst

[hollow spear]

And frost is just rng

[lucid jackal]

Sub opener burst

This is also, EVERY peak of your CDs

[warm marlin]

i assume the simcraft profile also doesnt have predisorienting and such that do noticably increase it

[hollow spear]

That graph with the new tier set

[alpine wraith]

actual raid MM

[hollow spear]

Chef's kiss

[lucid jackal]

This is MM

U big burst with lust

[alpine wraith]

sub

it is fine we only do same dmg as them

[lucid jackal]

Its just weird to pretend sub has no burst, the spec has mountains of burst

[alpine wraith]

when they burst 5m higher on opener

[hazy breach]

They dont

[alpine wraith]

after 1:30 mins

[hazy breach]

Idk are we talking about only openers

Because then sure

[hollow spear]

No

We're talking about burst

[lucid jackal]

Other specs have bigger openers, but subs burst is nearly unmatched

[hollow spear]

And that happens multiple times a fight

[lucid jackal]

I legit cant think of a spec with as much damage as sub does in CDs

[alpine wraith]

literally MM smokes us

[hollow spear]

And only one burst has lust

[lucid jackal]

On pull

[alpine wraith]

at 2 mins and 1:30 and again

[lucid jackal]

Opener =/= burst

[warm marlin]

only in lust

[alpine wraith]

uhdk does same again at 1:30

[lucid jackal]

This is MM

U linked it urself

[lucid jackal]

Do u see how big opener is vs 2nd cds..?

[alpine wraith]

still 2m more than sub

and same dmg in the second one

[lucid jackal]

https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-try-not-to-laugh-gif-7682731162751353849

[warm marlin]

the graphs u put mm is 2M lower in 2nd burst

[hollow spear]

Yeah

The heck

[warm marlin]

the second burst where the sub's pacemaker isnt' active

[alpine wraith]

it seems like less

because peak is 15m

but he is doing 8m

sub 7

[hollow spear]

I agree too much with Guy tonight

Should go to bed

[lucid jackal]

Do we agree that opener

and burst

are two different things

[hazy breach]

Top MM log on sprocket (without PI) is doing 8.3M after 25s

[lucid jackal]

Or are these the same thing

[hazy breach]

Top Sub log on sprocket is doing 8.6M after 25s

Idk if thats "getting smoked"

[hollow spear]

Ryldd represent

[alpine wraith]

burst for sub is fine but it is not super good

[hollow spear]

?!?

[warm marlin]

?

[hollow spear]

What are we smoking

[hazy breach]

If you add TFD, presymbols and pre-disorienting strikes to simc

[warm marlin]

I see evidence that sub's burst is arguably still the best in the game "its fine"

[hazy breach]

The "burst damage per second" for sub is at ~8.8

[lucid jackal]

This is rank 1 MM sprocket damage profile

[hazy breach]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923898501529600/1385753175201415378/image.png?ex=685736b7&is=6855e537&hm=ce284d1dedd884e3bd257e51f927b8e997d5cd058f3f1cc4bc2279cb76c89b29&
Which is higher than these

[lucid jackal]

This is rank 1 Sub rogue damage profile

[warm marlin]

his 2nd burst is literally half

[lucid jackal]

Which spec would u say has more burst here

[hollow spear]

We can't get much more bursty than we are right now

Besides getting aura buffed

And the first iterations of s2 tier were just over the top

[alpine wraith]

our burst is at least very reliable for sure

but nothing like it was

[lucid jackal]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills in this discord sometimes

[alpine wraith]

they have done away with it tho so we are top for sure

[hollow spear]

Wdym?

Are you saying our dmg profile was 95 burst 5 outside?

[alpine wraith]

yea

it was problematic tho

[hollow spear]

I don't believe that

[alpine wraith]

that is why they did away with it on legion

cata mop and wod were like that

i mean sub for the longest time was the meme spec that was never in raid

[hollow spear]

That's so long ago

[hazy breach]

If you really want the burst

[alpine wraith]

even in bfa it had crazy burst but bad tuning

[hollow spear]

No point in really taking it into account

[warm marlin]

hey now who tf is playing dark brew

[hollow spear]

Haha

Eleem went to the kitchen

[alpine wraith]

just close eyes and dont look at the dps

big boorst

maybe it is time

[warm marlin]

sub isn't even bad or low burst

[alpine wraith]

sub was never bad

[lucid jackal]

Welcome to my world

[hazy breach]

The best DB build is like -0.5%

[alpine wraith]

we were just ramping

[hazy breach]

But we have to take preforated veins

So its GG

[warm marlin]

I rebuke this

[alpine wraith]

man DD and PV

are such cucks

one too strong

[hollow spear]

Yeah really pepega

[alpine wraith]

the other so weak

[hollow spear]

I'd actually love to play some cursed db build

[warm marlin]

actually db over danse might be fun

if tuning permitted

[alpine wraith]

danse too strong

[hollow spear]

But pv kicks me in the nuts everytime

[chrome palm]

if db is that close surely you could play it for big concentrated add spawns

[hollow spear]

Gally?

[alpine wraith]

big problem is only 2 charges of SoD

kinda breaks some things for some fights

[chrome palm]

i guess, but gally is already weird with holding cds on pull

[hollow spear]

Is DM a separate multi btw?

[alpine wraith]

kinda

[chrome palm]

i dont think you ever sit on 2 stacks of symbols in raid after the opener

just swap goremaw and db position please blizz 🙏

[hollow spear]

Right now I'm not sure if I'm hyped for the new set or just hyped to get rid of the current one

Bottom line is I'm hyped

[alpine wraith]

new one will be very cool with 4p

doing BRRRR evis just flailing arms

[hollow spear]

I'll have to make some gold to buy myself a split run

[hazy breach]

With everything else yes, not with itself

So like 3 stacks of DM is 18%, not 6% 3 times

[hollow spear]

Okay gotcha

I feel like maybe I could hold symbols a little longer sometimes during 2nd dance

To juice my sectec a tad more

And just symbols sectec as first finisher instead of going for the symbols at 10s of sectec

Probably super minor

[lilac stag]

My assumption is getting rid of the taste of shit out of our mouths from current tier.

nothing feels good about it.

20 seconds until go with 8 stacks. Talk about mental mind fuck

[alpine wraith]

tier set seems cool

hope they fix it fast

[lilac stag]

by soon you mean 2 weeks before launch?

[swift tinsel]

has anyone experience action bar paging not working normally, right now I can only shift+scroll between them when mounted

[lilac stag]

Live or ptr? There was some delays on ptr but mostly just the server

[swift tinsel]

live

don't judge for resubbing it was so I could post feedback on forums lol

I provide feasts so I need to farm some slum sharks

tried disabling addons but still not working

jk respecced to outlaw now it works, even the live game hates sub

[serene notch]

i guess with bolt nerf inc we are going to use the one that gives mastery for keys?

[placid gyro]

What am i doing wrong... this other subtlety rogue kicked my ass in 2 seconds flat in the duration of ONE stun... while i cannot damage anyone past 75% of their health in one full rotation...

I have good armor, good flasks. Good enchants.. i had like super close talents...

[hazy breach]

#pvp

Most of us here have no idea how to pvp properly

Its a pve channel

[placid gyro]

Ahh

Then i shall pardon

https://tenor.com/view/hide-dissapear-vanished-gif-13003152

[lilac stag]

Maybe subterfuge bug

[swift tinsel]

idk its weird the game doesn't differentiate between bar 1 and 2 but just for sub

my sin loadout doesn't take subterfuge and still allows action bar paging

it worked fine pre-11.1.7

gonna do some fiddling, google had no answers either

[hollow python]

[merry agate]

https://tenor.com/view/philip-dick-blade-runner-lost-in-time-all-those-moments-gif-3478175

[random hare]

@hazy breach what was bugged about sub tier again on PTR?

[swift tinsel]

Cant cast second coup

[random hare]

ah

ye

just tested

[swift tinsel]

It casts evisc instead so you’re stuck at 4 stacks and can’t generate more

[random hare]

wtf

[swift tinsel]

Ye

Is great

Hoping they change it to be a separate buff that allows a second cast of coup and doesn’t interact with Escalating Blade stacks

Interact or interfere

Idk why they went with current implementation, even if it sent the coup having it just be a temp buff that’s an extended 4 stack of Escalating Blade is just not it

[fallow nimbus]

Or, hear me out, coup can stack beyond 4 but consumes 4

[lucid jackal]

probably leads to very degen gameplay

[hazy breach]

Personally im not a big fan as it encourages holding coup even more and would likely make us BP and shit

I think the set should just work like youd expect instead

[fallow nimbus]

Shouldn't be infinite, but maybe like 6, so a reset while coup is up isn't wasted

[lucid jackal]

That still would promote gameplay related to storing lots of EB stacks for CD sets

The specs damage is already so loaded into CD, anything more will continue to lead into less than desireable gameplay loops

Unless BP on ST stuff sounds fun to u idk

[hazy breach]

Or make the second coup cost no CP so we never build inbetween, but i dont think thats as good as just allowing us to stack it normally

[hazy breach]

Very possible this is a thing on deathstalker btw

[lucid jackal]

why

[hazy breach]

Set buffs the BP buff

And its fairly close already

Only using evis with DN and using BP otherwise wasnt even a 3% loss last i checked

[fallow nimbus]

DS is cursed

When you use sectec you get 2 free hidden blade procs, if you never use them and cast sectec again, do you have 4? If not what's wrong about having a little coup leeway?

What if coup would replace any direct damaging finisher?

[swift tinsel]

I’d rather see that baked into darkest night

[fallow nimbus]

Imagine an aoe coup with bp using the new killing spree animation but with smoke effects instead of guns

[serene notch]

man when tank pulls big and everything just perfectly lines up with our burst we fuck so hard

[steady dune]

why is evis in Blizzs cooldown manager, its not a CD XD

[vocal wolf]

Gotta know that you have enough energy for it... (Without just spamming the button til it goes or you know... Just looking at ur energy bar)

[tribal blade]

does the DS tier buff DN for sin

[hollow spear]

I thought it did, but haven't seen confirmation. Not really in the sin chat much, so maybe someone posted about it there.

[haughty mural]

Watch them double sectech with one envenom

[formal helm]

it says all dmg bonuses and effects

so I'd say it does?

"Symbols of Death increases the effectiveness of all Deathstalker damage effects and damage bonuses by 30% while active."
I'd say DN is a damage bonus, no?

[hollow spear]

Thought they already did

[formal helm]

think the other day i did 17m envenom

[haughty mural]

But yeah they want dmg more spread

[rugged crag]

do you guys shadowstrike during coup de grace animation or does it cancel the damage from it?

during burst windows

since it feels like coup de grace is almost like a channel

[lucid jackal]

U can't cancel it with a cast

If that's what Ur asking

[tribal blade]

yeah not 100% sure, might go sneak in sin channel and see

[haughty mural]

If 2p gives feedback when resets happen and 4p works (maybe as another instance so it don’t fucks with escalating blade stacks), I’m happy

They can work on dead talents in midnight
Else we are fine

[keen dome]

Just flying around Dornogal and I get a stack of the current weeks M+ affix, lmao:

New sub power? double purple?

[formal helm]

I wouldn't be surprised if it somehow overflowed from rookery or smth

[limpid sage]

Happened to me last season as well. No idea what causes it

[hazy breach]

I know it doesnt buff the energy from DN but i think it increases the damage, didnt double check though

[keen dome]

I'm going to guess it's someone leaving the instance after the key is done, with the debuff on them, and then immuning it off. It probably doesn't have a player limit on who or what it can hit, right?

[formal helm]

hmmm

could be it yea

[keen dome]

You can get hit by it as a boss dies, and in theory you could hearth out before it expires. I don't think it gets wiped?

But that's my best guess.

[formal helm]

[tribal blade]

ooo hot

i dunno the entire DS set reads as low impact though

dunno if that's just me

[keen dome]

I guess a lot of it will rely on the underlying strength of the hero tree itself. (lmao)

[tribal blade]

the 4pc seems underwhelming

consuming 1 extra mark when you activate symbols/shiv

and increased symbols/shiv duration

[keen dome]

Ye. Double coup is infinitely more fun and impactful imo

[tribal blade]

but i can see it being more powerful for sin than sub considering how well DS works for sin

[tribal blade]

it definitely is

[chrome palm]

Does double coup give you 3 sec tech in blades

Especially considering 2pc

I imagine that’s what you’re hoping for with the new tier

[mint swift]

Saw this and was gonna make the joke but the purple addict already did

[tribal blade]

hard to know since the tier is busted on ptr right now

[mint swift]

Said it already but of fucking course something goes wrong with the rogue tier set AGAIN

[tribal blade]

yeah lol it's par for the course

once again all our dev time will go to fixing the broken tier set

[mint swift]

There are rogue devs?!?!?!?!

News to me

[keen dome]

I'm still betting it's because of our Coup having six thousand eviserates and being an abomination of a spell

[fallow nimbus]

Is the belt change already in simc

[haughty rose]

Not a sub rogue q but don't know where else i should ask

is BDK any viable at higher keys? I leveled a VDH for an alt and figured BDK is more fun but my goal is do keys above 15. Heard BDK gets one shot often above that range so not sure about it.

[fallow nimbus]

The general wow channel would fit better

[haughty rose]

oh yeah thanks

[tribal blade]

not really no

is it possible to push higher keys with bdk? absolutely

but once the key levels start becoming high enough bdks need to be pixel perfect with every gcd they cast

or else they're dead

it's also kinda weird because udk is meta, so doubling up on dk is overkill

[mental dune]

this is also being put into the sub channel so its pretty safe to assume that meta isnt being considered in this case
but in my opinion bdk is the king of low keys since youre entirely self sufficient and blast big numbies

[tribal blade]

well he asked about bdk viability in high keys 😉

and if you want to push high keys, you're gonna have a miserable time as bdk

[mental dune]

i like bdk i dont wanna stray someone away from it 😔
but true i can feel my hairs actively greying any time i step foot in a higher key

[tribal blade]

i think i've played with 1-2 bdks in the past month

[vocal wolf]

It just kinda sucks because BDK is so self reliant it's hard to help them as healer

[tribal blade]

they're non existent

[vocal wolf]

Esp as like mw or rsham

[tribal blade]

you virtually cannot help a bdk as healer unless you're in comms together or you can read his mind that he's about to struggle

[vocal wolf]

Aye

They go from full to floor pov at mach 30

[tribal blade]

i literally just played with a bdk a few hours ago while helping my MW friend try to get a 17 workshop

[vocal wolf]

They eat my life cocoon like they been starving for weeks

[tribal blade]

and he died in the first pull

just walked in and got deleted in 2 seconds flat

[vocal wolf]

Yeah

[tribal blade]

i suppose they would need to rework bdk to fix that issue

or maybe shift more power into bdk defensives and away from self healing?

i dunno how to fix the problem, but it's definitely a problem

[vocal wolf]

Don't worry tho they "fixed" amz and grips they'll be fine

[tribal blade]

haha

bdk must feel like the sub rogues of the tank specs

[vocal wolf]

Tru

3535 is top 20 world for sub

[tribal blade]

damn maybe i should try to get as much sub IO as possible

[vocal wolf]

It's feasible, that's not hard to hit at all

Even my stupid ass is almost 3600 and we haven't pushed in a couple weeks

I think it's just underplayed since sin is a thing

[lilac stag]

Or ya know just stop running keys

[tribal blade]

truueee

[vocal wolf]

Hahaha

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/sound-like-anchorman-paul-rudd-mental-problems-losing-gif-3523624

[formal helm]

why, it's fun!

if you have a group it's fun

there's nothing else to do in game rn anyway

[lilac stag]

There’s nothing to do in game. (Fixed)

[formal helm]

fair

I still think it's fun if you do have a group

pugging is miserable tho

[vocal wolf]

Facts

I remember pugging 25s in DF s3 shit was turbo ass

Never again

[formal helm]

yep

have a guild group so it's chill

we made it a rule to never run keys if we have to pug anything

so it's always full guild runs

it's fun then

[vocal wolf]

I've got a group this season but our warrior bailed a couple weeks ago lol

So we're in the process of switching the comp a bit

Hopefully back to pushing this weekend

[lilac stag]

@tribal blade is just waiting for his guildies to hit total burnout. He’s been checked out for over a month.

[formal helm]

our issue is that our tank works night shifts as a nurse

so sometimes it's like barely a key in a week

🤷

[vocal wolf]

Oofta

Yeah part of it is having a group with a consistent schedule

Like we do sat/Mon/wed

Irl obligations def come first tho, I knew so many people in EQ that didn't understand this istg

[formal helm]

can't do that when his schedule's not fixed

but w/e

we make it work somehow

[vocal wolf]

Yeah I figured, I have family in the med field it's a tough job for sure

[formal helm]

yep.

part of the reason why this guild dissolved during sanctum

was that his shifts became impossible to balance with raids

bc of covid

[vocal wolf]

Ouch

[formal helm]

yah

[vocal wolf]

COVID was a wild time xd

[fallow nimbus]

Work was closed, endless free time

[vocal wolf]

Reminds me few years back we had thst big freeze, my mother who's a CLS was stuck at the hospital for over a week lmao

Texas infrastructure dog shit at handling cold weather lol

[void ocean]

what happened to Whispyr

did he review someones game in dm

[vocal wolf]

Yup and installed a rootkit lol

[void ocean]

oh boi

[vocal wolf]

Yeah rootkit lead to his account getting yoinked along with his new backup one xd

Hopefully he gets it sorted soon, but he is absolutely gonna have to change every pw in existence

On a new device most likely

God knows how many of his accounts from different applications got compromised

[tribal blade]

HAHA it's happening 1 by 1

one of my guildies just told us he doesn't care about pushing as much anymore

and our tank said he's waiting for me to get resil 18 so i can give them a free ride

basically i'm their slave

[vocal wolf]

xd

That's funny I can't get my guildies to do my resil keys they're scared of em

[haughty rose]

you right with that. i don't care about meta. i just don't want to have to stop pushing because i get one shot all the time

[mental dune]

barring picking meta specs, the largest determining factor to whether you stop pushing or not (imo) is having a group vs pugging
and in those cases bdk is playable-ish at high keys since you can be in comms and ask for a pain suppress or mw bubble or something
or you can be really cheeky and meld n have the rogue evasion tank or something

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/nope-gif-nope-nope-nope-i'm-out-black-guy-gif-6431340543442694766

[vale pine]

[sweet turret]

Just was reading the Deathstalker tree of sub. How does it's aoe work? There is only 1 buff talent for it

[alpine wraith]

in aoe you bp

and differently from trickster you use storm

instead of strike

[sweet turret]

Interesting, but the mark is only working with evis, doesn't it?
Would be nice if BP would work

[alpine wraith]

for most dps you also do some weird things with cancelling darkest night or changing target to not proc it ever

mark works with bp too

but DS is not as good right now

mostly because it is annoying to play

[sweet turret]

Not understanding you completely, guess I have to try
Why wouldn't you want to proc it?

What do you find annoying?

Sub rogue talent tree doesn't change?

[alpine wraith]

darkest night mechanic on popping 3 marks only works with evis

and it has to be a 7 cp one

that is most of the friction

as evis is bad in aoe for DS

so you just skip it

it is also because we have a talent in DS that is called momentum of despair that buffs BP even more than usual

[vocal wolf]

So clear the witnesses after isn't enough to recoup the loss of sending Evis? Thats kinda aids lmaooo

[alpine wraith]

you change target of the mark to proc it

so you actually proc it more

you only cancelaura if you mess up

but even then if you have enough sht for a shadowcraft and are at 2 marks should have changed mark before at 2

to avoid that too

but we are not machines

[vocal wolf]

Ah I see

[vale pine]

you apply dots to everything that survives and use BP after

[runic trail]

Time to try sub out in LFR, god help me

LFR is a horrible place but also, the fear of going into anything above that and just being dead weight horrifies me

[keen dome]

I believe in you. But also, just pug heroic it's chill.

LFR has issues that make it a little awkward to practice 'cos stuff can go so weirdly.

[runic trail]

I thought about that but then the anxiety took over

[keen dome]

Fair

[vocal wolf]

There are a few streamers who run multiple times a week, I've had way more luck in those lol

[runic trail]

So, we LFR until I can sit there and go, 'Yes, I'm vaguely doing the right thing'