subtlety

[alpine wraith]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[vestal escarp]

I dont wanna look at hunter :smileyface:

[alpine wraith]

2 coups is very good yea

[warm depot]

i looked at dk

almost came

then scrolled down to rogue

[alpine wraith]

yea dont look at dk

[warm depot]

and inverted

[pliant topaz]

yo fam, i heard you liked pure random bs, so i gave you giga randomness on an ability that gets randomly proc'd fro your autos, that for fun we made sure u cant track when it was proc'd

now go fuck yourself and gimme 20$ a month

[swift tinsel]

Our onion has layers

[vestal escarp]

Realz in assa channel making sure ppl dont freak out at fatebound set

[alpine wraith]

it is too late now for sub i think

[warm depot]

🫡

[alpine wraith]

we are cooked from rng

but numbers will be fine likely

[pliant topaz]

o7 fam have fun

[warm depot]

we're cooked cuz we're too stealthy

[vestal escarp]

Worst case in opener is only 3 ub

With 30% sounds pretty guaranteed to get a 4th

[shut ridge]

wow so many changes to review!

[pliant topaz]

i cant wait for 4pc to make u all bp in single target again so u can double coupe in dance

[warm depot]

^ yep

[pliant topaz]

guys gonna be so happy

[hollow spear]

wdym

[alpine wraith]

dont worry we dont even bp anymore

[hollow spear]

I already do that now

lol

[vestal escarp]

At least it's not rupture!

[alpine wraith]

we just stay auto attacking

to get sht

[hollow spear]

or that

[alpine wraith]

with 2 coups we have enough cdr

[pliant topaz]

pretty sure its a slight loss to do that right now

[alpine wraith]

[pliant topaz]

like 0.5% ish

[alpine wraith]

not anymore

[pliant topaz]

pog

[hollow spear]

yeah, I either rupture or afk rn

[pliant topaz]

havent kept up for a while

[hollow spear]

cause of current tier

[warm marlin]

you need to be beholden to optimal gaming

[pliant topaz]

eks

deeeee

[vestal escarp]

Peak if you ask me

[pliant topaz]

good game design right there idk

[hollow spear]

almost as slow as FF

[warm depot]

almost

[pliant topaz]

nah nah nah this is actually so aids though im thinking about it

you have more sectech cdr

so much sectech cdr actually

[vale pine]

haha, think we will be able to test soon

[warm marlin]

you're already mildly close to double dancing between every flag instead of every other

[patent lichen]

Hey whats best hero talent for S3 sim wise? (sarcasm)

[warm marlin]

maybe with more coups it will be possible

[warm depot]

fatebound

krappa

[lucid jackal]

Maybe the sky isnt falling

[alpine wraith]

we will be able to double dance now yes

between cds

but also hmm

[pliant topaz]

I have sooooo manye cursed ideas to try for this

[vale pine]

we can go over them once we can test it

[vestal escarp]

Dev notes out

[alpine wraith]

you know a funny one

we wont have any way to know

if unseen resetted

NICE

[vestal escarp]

Wall of text for all classes

[hollow spear]

I am all up for cursed ideas

[pliant topaz]

Im thinking something similar to this yea. every dance is double dance with 3 applications of coup and 2 sectechs.

[vestal escarp]

Except....?

[pliant topaz]

then solo sectechs outside

we'll see though

[alpine wraith]

we might play TFD always now

to get 4 coups in opener

[hollow spear]

I want TFD to be a thing on 8 minute fights

Kill WM!

[warm depot]

ecks dee

[alpine wraith]

tbh if only they made wm apply to all ataccks

might as well go back

[pliant topaz]

@vale pine what do you think happens if your next 2 evis's are both coup? u think you can gain flawless form stacks while its up? im 99% sure it wont be, so u have to coup coup sectech, losing the entire cdr point of it.

[jaunty heath]

Just read over tier sets and without much thinking this looks like it’s gonna make us do cringe things

[alpine wraith]

you get flawless from using unseens and using coup

[jaunty heath]

Not as if I would be surprised

[vale pine]

killing spree rework sounds interessting

[pliant topaz]

how about sectech then strike and reset ? u think the gauranteed strike gets consumed regardless? cuz im 100% it will

[warm depot]

ya cuz its a channel if you use it at the end of a pack or something you can probably still step over to the next pack

[vale pine]

you probably get stacks from both

[alpine wraith]

yea while you have coup you cant get more escalatings

but you get flawless stacks

[clever delta]

so we have 90s trinket from dungeon now? correct?

[vale pine]

but we will probably need to test

[alpine wraith]

i wonder if WM strikes will proc two unseens if first procs tier

[pliant topaz]

ah fuck i forgot about the name, i meant unseen blade stack thingy.

[alpine wraith]

yea we will need to test

wish we had a cap of 10 escalatings

maybe we can talk to realz

[pliant topaz]

my point is since youre capped on it, you would be over capping sectech strikes

[alpine wraith]

about it

[pliant topaz]

so u have to coup coup sectech

[alpine wraith]

with new tier the wastage will be big

[warm marlin]

you can ready unseen blade procs while having coup up yes

[pliant topaz]

bro i quit for like 5 months and forgot the names

no

the stack u get up to 4

that gives u coup

[alpine wraith]

yea you cant get more escalatings

[pliant topaz]

u cant gain stacks of that thing while u have coup

so u cant sectech then get coup cdr

[warm marlin]

ya u waste them if u strike while having coup up

[pliant topaz]

u have to coup coup sectech, so itll be your 6th gcd in dance

[vale pine]

its unseen blades

[hollow spear]

I think it might still be more value to coup sectech coup

[warm marlin]

outlaw casts coup at low cp if it would otherwise waste unseen blade fwiw

[north schooner]

escalating blade

[warm marlin]

might just be a coup coup strike sectec angle

[vale pine]

^ is the name

[warm marlin]

or shuriken storm or something

[alpine wraith]

yea you will use coup two times in a row

[swift tinsel]

Yea

[pliant topaz]

idk, youre getting like what 24 seconds of cdr? thats almost half a sectech per dance.

[swift tinsel]

Static agi + mastery on-use

[pliant topaz]

u might get more sectechs out this way

we'll see ig

[alpine wraith]

you would want to still sec tech

you might sec tech coup storm coup

then you have 3 banked

[warm marlin]

perhaps meta to full stack sht to 14 so you can sectec coup coup

[hollow spear]

I am all for that gigajuiced 2nd sectec

[alpine wraith]

for another coup coup in next dance

would be funny yea

[sly shore]

should allow 2 dances between every flag now too

[alpine wraith]

if you want to stack 14 sht

yea

[hollow spear]

basically flag burst, double dance burst between

[raw wadi]

Saiken the Ritual Forge Enjoyer

[hollow spear]

rinse and repeat

[alpine wraith]

we might use only 1 dance

[hollow spear]

I agree with Armin

[alpine wraith]

and symbols alone to get 14 sht

for dance

[hollow spear]

huge potential for shenanigans

[alpine wraith]

or maybe we triple dance

in cds

instead of flag rupture

[hollow spear]

like in s1?

[alpine wraith]

we would flag dance sec tech

then go triple

would be funny

[hollow spear]

once that cursed s2 tierset is gone

the one thing the new tier set has going for it

[pliant topaz]

i can see that. I can also see more naked sectechs

[hollow spear]

is that it isn't this season's tier set

[pliant topaz]

coup gives infinite cdr now btw.

so sectech is even more valuable to cast asap

[hollow spear]

Definitely more naked sectecs

Which feeds back into getting more coups

Which feeds back into getting sectec

[pliant topaz]

dont forget the 2 pc either, it gives u more coups which again -> more sectech -> more coups

RNG is gnna be for sure something

[hollow spear]

Dang

[warm depot]

we love rng dont we folks

[prime stratus]

did they actually make the coup bug into a feature?

[hollow spear]

I don't know, this kind of rng certainly sounds more fun than the tier set we have rn

[warm depot]

yeah at least

youc ant lose this rng

vs s2 rng

xd

[clever delta]

tbh having farmable trinket is good enough for me 😄 after playing transmitter until they buffed assa was some experience i dont want again

[pliant topaz]

reminds me a lot of shadowlands tierset

same concept

rng on resources

not many liked it

[alpine wraith]

i hated it so much

i can already see

[hollow spear]

I think we'll come up with a way to streamline it

[pliant topaz]

how? you cant track it

what are u gonna do in aoe?

[warm depot]

it just happens lmfao

[alpine wraith]

yea you dont know if you resetted it

[pliant topaz]

keep backstabbing cuz xd?

[warm depot]

you cant track if unseen goes off twice

[alpine wraith]

you can stab at full cp to not waste sht

!!!

[pliant topaz]

huge

[hollow spear]

Yeah aoe seems cursed

[warm depot]

huge gameplay

[hollow spear]

They might have to do sth about the ub triggers

Storm triggers it on your current target

Or sth

[alpine wraith]

it would all be fine if we just had the ability with 3 stacks

and we can get them back

CRAZY

but 1 more button

[warm depot]

if they werent cowards theyd let us manually activate we love button bloat folks

[alpine wraith]

i cant believe it is year 2025 and people struggle to press less than 15 buttons

in an mmo

[warm depot]

crazy!!

[clever delta]

damn we will need some proper tunning now with assa being able to play 90 sec

we have nothing going for us now

[pliant topaz]

bro who cares about tuning right now

im still coping about wtf i just read

[alpine wraith]

what we have is ideas right now

truning is whatever they want

if assa is bad it will just get buffed 2 or 3 times again

[warm depot]

sub is just a concept of a spec

[magic ruin]

So we can use coup twice now before CB + sectech in opener if we proc with tier set? Meaning the damage difference between no coup and 2x coup is gonna be crazy? Am i missing something?

[alpine wraith]

meanwhile

[magic ruin]

(Season 3 tier set)

[vestal escarp]

whwres eleem

eleeeeem

eleeeeeeeeeem

[swift tinsel]

Plus they get extra exterminate stacks on cast

[warm depot]

if you proc yes

[swift tinsel]

So they get even more rng

[warm depot]

its gonna be funny

[hollow spear]

Frost DK legit 80% variance

[alpine wraith]

also san layin

after nerfing blood beast 3 times

they make it last 4 secs longer

because why not

[warm depot]

yeah LMAO

at least blood is back right krappa

[hazy breach]

Hello

[vestal escarp]

wait what

[warm marlin]

should add one guaranteed unseen blade proc while out of combat

[vestal escarp]

THEY REWORKD FROST TO GET EVEN MORE RNG

https://tenor.com/view/monkeys-paw-paw-monkey-gif-17535679

[warm marlin]

the difference between proccing coup in first dance or not is gonna be massive now and while disorienting strikes bug is a nice way to combat it you shouldnt be reliant on a bug or get screwed by wiping before you can cast sectec

[hazy breach]

Now we atleast have a 30% chance to not get fucked

[tidal python]

This should be said more often, Blizzard can randomly decide to turn the worst spec in the game into the best next week so

[hazy breach]

or well, more like 3 30% chances

[hollow spear]

Ig there's just going to be some evis holding going around

[warm marlin]

i mean i dont think its gonna change a ton gameplay wise

relatively certain evis holding and sht stacking is already very good

[hollow spear]

Yep

[hazy breach]

But ye i have like no positive thing to say about the deathstalker one

[warm marlin]

maybe more people will change to playing that way

[alpine wraith]

people can cosplay funnel

while bping in st

LOOK MOM SINGULAR FOCUS

[bleak wind]

have you seen that one button rotation WA, can't wait for people to use it and then logs people to say not alot used it so they won't fix the logs

[alpine wraith]

while cancelaura darkest night

[hazy breach]

Whats the WA

[bleak wind]

https://wago.io/SXRj5Tb1XZ

https://x.com/tettles/status/1935437419580637219

Peyton Tettleton (@tettles)

New One-Button Assistant weakaura just dropped that doesn’t pay the GCD penalty and will press your cooldowns for you! It’s based off Hekili data, so it’ll be a better rotation as well!!

The modern age of wow is upon us.

X · Jun 18, 2025, 8:40 PM

[hazy breach]

So it presses it without the gcd

Lmao

[alpine wraith]

crazy

[bleak wind]

literally plays for you

[warm depot]

LMFAO

my goat

[dire saddle]

Love to see us in the datamined class changes 🔥

[alpine wraith]

at least low range dungeons/raids will be better

[bleak wind]

uses hekili and presses the spells for you

[hollow spear]

Lmao

Hekili kinda ass on sub tho

Afaik

Or people who come here complaining are just bad at following the highlighted buttons

[pliant topaz]

pretty sure it just follows the apl

unless its not updated

[bleak wind]

well you can change the apl logic in it afik

to whatever you want

[pliant topaz]

but in its core, having something that just shows u what to press based on the apl is not that hard

[hollow spear]

Wonder if Blizz will or even can do something about that

[alpine wraith]

the less people suck in general the better

one way or another

[bleak wind]

probably restrict the way it works

I feel like if you can do that

you can do way more

like botting

pvp bots

[hollow spear]

Then again, strictly following the apl doesn't go well with a lot of encounters

Delaying mini bursts for adds or burn phases etc

[bleak wind]

I guess that is true, but for something like sprocket it could work

[fallow nimbus]

What do we say about the ds and trickster set?

[hollow spear]

Does it register stuff like sht procs to cast another finisher?

[bleak wind]

hopefully its fixed in the next few days

[strange chasm]

Damn sin gets to be either 90s or 2mins that seems kinda op?

[hazy breach]

Trickster seems fine (assuming the extra coup gives stacks too), deathstalker is just questionmark

[bleak wind]

if hekili does then ye

[warm marlin]

agility spymaster's is going to be absolutely insane for a triple dance burst

[alpine wraith]

oh yea

[warm marlin]

60k+ agility

hmm

[clever delta]

but i wanna play my 90s dungeon one 😦

[alpine wraith]

you likely use that one on the 4:30 or 6 mins cds

[warm marlin]

3min cd with that trinket + pot

[fallow nimbus]

More unseen blades means more coups, more coups mean more coups

[warm marlin]

and maghar racial ofc

[alpine wraith]

you can also use it as an async enabler

like you said a 3 min cd trink

and use that other one in between

[pliant topaz]

if you use guys logic with dust, yeah its the most broken thing ever aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. but probably just means the spec is good if its tuned well.

[warm marlin]

takes 2 and a half minutes to full stack

maybe less good

[alpine wraith]

not really you can use it earlier or sit on full stacks a bit nothing crazy

[warm marlin]

its still 30k primary if you just cast on 90s

[molten citrus]

this, supposedly, may be against tos

[bleak wind]

ye I am not using it

but you know people will

[clever delta]

gotta give it try

[bleak wind]

its more funny that blizz adds a one button rotation and it just breaks things, love it

[molten citrus]

if its isn't legal i'm sure wago will remove it pretty quickly

blizz will likely kill it in some way

[bleak wind]

probably classed as an exploit if anything

[vale pine]

follows the same pattern we saw since DF

[bleak wind]

they will most likely restrict the access to the functions that presses the spells

[lilac stag]

People are bad at following.

It literally runs the apl

And fuu helped tweak it

[hazy breach]

Theres also the new house of cards https://www.wowhead.com/ptr-2/item=242494/lily-of-the-eternal-weave

So ye were fine on the trinket front

[pliant topaz]

thats pog

[warm marlin]

ye its just less stats from the looks of it

doesnt seem too sick

but def not cooked

[hazy breach]

Its like a fine fallback option

[warm marlin]

for sure

[hazy breach]

But the spymaster one is probably the play

[alpine wraith]

time to use both

[warm marlin]

prestacked coup 14 sht 15 spymaster stacks pot into triple dance 4x sectec

hmm

[alpine wraith]

but there are other good passive ones

[strange chasm]

Kind of crazy sub has the 1.5min niche and blizzard said nah we will let sin do both LMAO

[vale pine]

you mean like

[alpine wraith]

they also gave outlaw cleave to both sub and assa

no remorse

[vale pine]

sub had shadow dance and stealth interactions

funnel

[alpine wraith]

and better dance to outlaw too

[vale pine]

higher mobility

[alpine wraith]

so rogue is kinda just

[vale pine]

cooldown focus with burst damage

etc.

[alpine wraith]

a barriada in colombia

where everyone steals from everyone

[vale pine]

nothing of this is exclusive to sub anymore

mobility has been normalized between rogue specs, and sin has massively gained in that department

sin is now the funnel king, subtlety funnel is shit

both specs are burst/cooldown focused, a big change away from assassiantions bleed/sustained profile it had for years

additionally, all 3 specs now have BF, but one spec has a custom version which is stronger than the other 2

only one spec has execute tho

[strange chasm]

I don't even think sub needed BF. It was nice using black powder and when we got that as baseline.

[vale pine]

BP hits for rly low numbers, and is a trade off between single target and aoe

aoe design on sub is not ideal, and there was no effort spend to improve it

[dry plank]

yees give all rogue execute lol xD

[pliant topaz]

what do u do when u gotta come up with something, youre low on time and ideas, and u got a dumbass name armin crying perma in some random stupid discord? there u go

[thin sinew]

Wait you have got to be kidding me we get 4 lines only again and it's only outlaw???????

[vale pine]

why not, if we already remove all other niches

[thin sinew]

this is 11.1 all over again >.<

[warm marlin]

the outlaw change was very very very good to be fair

[dry plank]

what change?

[clever delta]

beside ks?

[warm marlin]

the ks change yes

[thin sinew]

but that's like a mid patch reset change not a new season change

[vale pine]

killing spree rework was needed

the spell was a dissaster

and the center of one of the hero talents

it took quite long to rework tho

[pliant topaz]

the fact that it took them this long is just cinema

[thin sinew]

the fact shadowpriest is getting another rework is actually criminal

[vale pine]

it was already apperent that it needed work in beta

and only gets the attention when 2/3 of the xpac is over

not complaining, its a good change

[vernal leaf]

Is this in new patch notes?

[fallow nimbus]

Could literally just steal blade dance from dhs or removed ks and replaced it with blade rush

[dry plank]

thats is just how things are gonna go for rogue, we just do not get attention at all for long long time, and decision they make around class is just whatever

[vale pine]

the tier set for sub is fine, it adds to its strength

[thin sinew]

yes

[vale pine]

but sub now competes with sin on the only niche it had left

[hazy breach]

Surely the 4p still gives the flawless stacks right

[vale pine]

so that will be interessting

[hazy breach]

Subs burst is still way higher

[vale pine]

because subtlety is already so reduced in what its allowed to do

[fallow nimbus]

Is deathmark and kb on 1.5min cd?

[vale pine]

so making sin do another thing sub is or was good at is a very deliverate decision

[thin sinew]

yeh i heard about that it's like they're making ass and sub the same just sub can cleave/aoe/target swap and assass can only cleave/aoe is weird

[dry plank]

kb will be 45sec no?

[fallow nimbus]

If sub doesn't get the sylvanas dagger execute instead of goremaw

[thin sinew]

I REALLLY am hoping this means they've got a plan for a sub change we was discussing a few weeks ago i really do.

i'm sort of shocked it's not involved in this round given the thematic but guess we'll have to hold out for midnight to get some love

[hollow spear]

Not sure there's much happening in 11.2

[dry plank]

nope they reworking dk warriors and priests as far as we can see

[vale pine]

only cooldown that aligns poorly is shiv

basically

[thin sinew]

so they'll just float a charge of shiv for the last 8 seconds

[fallow nimbus]

So dm down to 1.5 and kb to 45sec? Where is the asyncron cd shit we had to endure?

[thin sinew]

that's easy

[dry plank]

30 sec shiv is desynced now no?

[fluid fiber]

is the charged bolt proc from that new belt bugged? I literally just hit the dummy for 5 minutes straight and had not 1 single proc....

[hollow spear]

Can just dry shiv after dm

[pliant topaz]

no on no realz said subs burst being front loaded is a niche on its own!

[vale pine]

and they nerfed secret after that

[pliant topaz]

also sub having access to on demand burst through dance apparently is important to more than 100 guilds for the first 3 weeks of prog

[vale pine]

soo

[pliant topaz]

so theres 2 more left

[thin sinew]

only if you was to slam both shiv's per KB which they probably won't do

[pliant topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/hang-first-time-smiles-gif-14991372

[vale pine]

i mean yes, but also

its not like the burst is rly that high

outside of 90 sec

[lucid jackal]

Its the highest burst spec in the game

Outside of lust

[hollow spear]

Can almost see the mini bursts

[lucid jackal]

No spec can burst this high halfway thru a fight

[pliant topaz]

cool

[strange chasm]

sub is still hella fun tho

[vale pine]

i mean we will see

[dry plank]

this guy

[strange chasm]

hopefully they give it some numbers

[lucid jackal]

Sub is hella fun rn, feels good in raid right now, Coup set seems strong too

[vale pine]

having the highest burst should be rly good in m+

[lucid jackal]

Excited for next tier

[warm marlin]

special cantrip boots and cata boots both good stats

[pliant topaz]

thats just mean dude

[vale pine]

because you reduce pakcs faster and kill the hard mobs

so logically, sub is the m+ spec, right?

[strange chasm]

if they could change sub to be like arcane but melee

[hazy breach]

Go into burst with a fully stacked spymaster > cds > sectech > coup > coup

Literally exploding the mobs

[warm marlin]

sub burst is going to be insane

[lucid jackal]

This is a pointless discussion so I'm just gonna play PoE, new tier sets look kinda fuckin cool tho. Hope the gameplay ends up being fun and I get to play sub for another tier

[hollow spear]

I can smell the nerfs already

[vale pine]

probably will

[warm marlin]

if there's an important damage amp or shield

[sullen hare]

I'm gonna say doesn't it look like trickster is reigning supreme forever at this point?

[lucid jackal]

[hazy breach]

Deathstalker one seems like a first tier of an expansion type tierset

[pliant topaz]

wasnt this also the same as s2 tier? u think theyre gonna let a giga burst go through? inb4 50% nerf to flawless form

[hazy breach]

But trickster one i like

[vale pine]

trickster is the exciting one

deathstalker feels boring on first look

but we will see

[hollow spear]

I feel like they forgot about flawless form

[fluid fiber]

anyone knows whats going on there? I relogged and still no dmg proc

[vale pine]

you sure you did not hit the pvp dummy?

[sullen hare]

I never got it to proc on dummies but it procced fine in raid combat

[fluid fiber]

ye was raid boss dummy

[vale pine]

also make sure to use the dummies in OG, the ones in other zones can be buggy

[thin sinew]

shhhhh 😛

[vale pine]

(or SW if you are aliance)

[sullen hare]

also make sure your addons are upgraded like details 😉

[hazy breach]

Well maybe but this tier doesnt look to be 35-40%

And the spymaster isnt exclusive to sub

[hollow spear]

Deathstalker feels like they didn't even try, kinda phoning it in

[vale pine]

I am fine with Deathstalker being meh

[pliant topaz]

idk it seems insanely strong. like 2pc + 4pc combined

we'll see though

[vale pine]

trickster feels like its better designed overall

[hazy breach]

I mean ye but more like 20%

Not 40%

[pliant topaz]

but getting that much more resources is always spooky

[steel zinc]

new hoc

[warm marlin]

iirc double coup for outlaw was like 8%

[hollow spear]

Old news mapko

[warm marlin]

it obviously didnt have the damage amp and whatnot

[thin sinew]

We're needing the trickster prop to make sub even work lol

[hollow spear]

We're on that spymaster train now

[pliant topaz]

thatrs the main part for sub though..

and the cdr

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[vale pine]

flag/blades is a lot of the damage, so it might just mean we have a more consistent rotation

[pliant topaz]

which leads to more sectechs

[steel zinc]

I am slow sorry

[hazy breach]

We spymastering

[pliant topaz]

which means more coups

[steel zinc]

old boomer

[warm marlin]

ye but cdr for outlaw is even stronger than sub

[steel zinc]

yeah read that too every agi class wants that now

[pliant topaz]

I wonder if we can get maybe 6 coups and 3-4 sectechs during flag/ blades now

[hollow spear]

Is it agi only? Thought it was mainstat

[vale pine]

i assume we coup maxing

[hazy breach]

agi / str

[hollow spear]

Going from goon maxxing straight to coup maxxing, hell yeah

[hazy breach]

We dont strike enough to proc that many coups though

[hollow spear]

Where's that trinket from?

[hazy breach]

Its still only 1 stack per strike, since its resetting the CD, not doing an extra strike

[hazy breach]

Raid

[warm marlin]

any world you play both actually

[hazy breach]

Dont think so

[warm marlin]

spymasters on 3mins and hoc lite on 1.5

[pliant topaz]

new giga wokege take -> cancel aura shadow techniques during blades

we are so back

[warm marlin]

or a 2min or something cursed

[hazy breach]

But even then

[pliant topaz]

but yeah i see your point. could see maybe 3 sectechs though

[hazy breach]

Its still not enouhg

[vagrant fulcrum]

[pliant topaz]

4 coup 3 sectech

[hazy breach]

To fit inside blades

[fluid moth]

extra coup means more dances too right?

beacuse of teh cdr

[hazy breach]

Yes, assuming it does all the things coup does

And its not just extra damage, but thats a fair assumption

[pliant topaz]

probably consistent 2 dance between each flag now

[fluid moth]

yeah thats what im hoping for...

[hollow spear]

Imma rename to Michael Flatley with how often we're going to dance

[warm marlin]

on ptr it seems to be the cdr as well

gonna try doing some triple coup 4x sectec shenanigans on ptr ping

[hazy breach]

Im assuming its cdr and flawless stacks too

[warm marlin]

flawless ya

for sure

[alpine wraith]

rn it seems so

[hazy breach]

Because otherwise it doesnt make sense

[warm marlin]

wasnt looking close enough at cdr but i assume it is that as well

[fluid moth]

so more reliable triple dance on 1.5 min and a few more dances overall

thats pretty solid

[hollow spear]

They'd have to code a separate instance of coup to not make it proc stuff

There's no resources for that

[pliant topaz]

probably should. questions is now do u coup coup sectech for the amp? sectech coup coup for the cdr? or coup sectech coup for some of both, but also lose on 1 stack of escalating

reminder than sectech coup coup also loses min 2 stacks of escalating

[warm marlin]

i really do think you just stack enough sht to just sectec coup coup

[hazy breach]

The problem with couping before sectech is that it will not buff the next sectech

[warm marlin]

so you dont have to get any builders

[fluid moth]

maybe we won't need to use an extra symbols outside dance

[pliant topaz]

yep itll buff one sectech only

so might be option 2 or 3

each one has a downside or 2

[hollow spear]

The tfd dream is alive

cb sectec with max dm stacks without overlapping into the next dance

[vale pine]

if we do 3 secrets

we might delay cb for the 3rd cast

[alpine wraith]

we might triple dance

[vale pine]

possible, but we don't have long enough shb

[alpine wraith]

maybe a strike rupture vanish strike flag dance sec tech angle

blades is whatever

[vale pine]

okay

it could be cursed too

in that we use shb later

so we cover 2nd and 3rd dance

assuming we tripple dance

[warm marlin]

[alpine wraith]

i mean first globals will be sec tech then proc coup then two coups

[pliant topaz]

We have Lo by enough flag

[hollow spear]

Hmmmm

[alpine wraith]

plenty of energy

then blades a bit later

[hollow spear]

Dang

[alpine wraith]

like maybe on the two coups

[vale pine]

XD

also maybe

[alpine wraith]

first sec tech kinda being a feeder

[thin sinew]

don't mine me 👀

[vale pine]

oh god

[warm marlin]

not having blades for the 2 coups in opener seems a bit tough

[alpine wraith]

and the 2 and 3 being the big ones

as they still have flag

[vale pine]

given the limited amount of symbols we have

will be interessting

how we rotate them

[hollow spear]

Hachadinos sheet in shambles

[alpine wraith]

will be funny

maybe only 1 dance with symbols in between cds

and another without

or idk

[summer lynx]

Why is it that Rogues never get any meaningful change when they drop all these fat notes for everyone else lol?

[alpine wraith]

rogue set is kinda ok for dmg likely

and they can tune up or down

ideally they touch a bit on some problems like escalating being capped at 4

or the DS idk

what that is

i see myself stabbing at full cp to get sht for next dance

and escalatings

[warm marlin]

this is already not bad on live fwiw

though mostly for the damage while stacking sht

[alpine wraith]

yea i do it because you still get unseen resets

even if you CANT TRACK THEM AT ALL

[hollow spear]

I'm wondering if we get more leeway to do that now or if we're actually pressed for cdr to get even more dances/sectecs out

[alpine wraith]

like the reset we will have again

xdddd

cdr will need to be looked at

but the more we have the best we can degen

the dances

[hollow spear]

Also wonder if this takes away flexibility

[warm marlin]

alright well

the sub tier is bugged on ptr atm it seems

[alpine wraith]

you can still move dances around

[warm marlin]

you dont actually get the second coup it just highlights eviscerate for 5 seconds after casting coup

[hollow spear]

Like moving dances around for spawns/burns

[warm marlin]

so cant test triple dance stuff yet

[thin sinew]

Rogue??? BUGGEED????? excuse me????? xD

[hazy breach]

https://tenor.com/view/hang-first-time-smiles-gif-14991372

[warm marlin]

!

[hollow spear]

They manage to unintentionally add it one time

Then when they intend to add it

They fail

Classic

[warm marlin]

it works for outlaw

[hazy breach]

Just like the fazed hotfix they did

[warm marlin]

[hazy breach]

Made it work with blade flurry, but not nimble

[thin sinew]

Eviserate on 5 EWWWW

[warm marlin]

just like the original form of this tier set too

sub couldn't trigger the bug right

early this season

[hazy breach]

Correct

[hollow spear]

Cooked

[warm marlin]

surely they didnt do the exact same thing right

[hollow spear]

They didn't, and don't call me Shirley

[alpine wraith]

kek

[hollow spear]

They'll fix it before patch day

[thin sinew]

sorry you didn't report it before PTR went live no fixing

[warm marlin]

it's reported now 🙏

[hollow spear]

Realz probably still busy defending the fatebound tier in the sin channel

[warm marlin]

he did say the 2p for trickster was currently being judged

perhaps we can give some feedback about the rng nature

[hazy breach]

I feel like it should double proc instead of resetting the cd

Because otherwise well feel "punished" for getting shadowcraft procs

Since that might make it so we cant coup in dance

[alpine wraith]

double proc should be better

because a reset is whatever if you cant track it

[warm marlin]

i mean the whole thousand cuts untrackable resets thing is already bad

[alpine wraith]

i despise it

[warm marlin]

adding more untrackable resets is an interesting choice

[alpine wraith]

if only the other talent was not so bad

like if it was like 2 controllable resets every x secs or something

[warm marlin]

is flickerstrike even bad in raid

[alpine wraith]

so we could combine it with disorienting

[warm marlin]

i feel like theres a decent amount of pulse aoe

[alpine wraith]

you can abuse it a bit on gally

but never tried

not a lot of bosses with eatable aoe

that comes often

[hazy breach]

Yes because you lose 10% attack speed

[warm marlin]

i mean depends on what they mean by aoe

the pulse aoe for the entire mugzee fight is considered aoe

[hazy breach]

Anything feint works for

[warm marlin]

you could technically proc unseen on cd by feinting

[fluid fiber]

holy shit. that new belt is so bad in m+. whats that design...I just did ML and was my first dungeon with it and while skipping it aggro'ed 2 times in a row randomly getting me infight and bricking the key on +19 xD I was insulted like for 5 minutes straight but I didnt knew that I have to click or macro that buff away...Now I know. What a horrible design for m+

[hazy breach]

Ye but youre losing like 6% of your sht

Since you have less attack speed

[warm marlin]

that part is a bit bad

[alpine wraith]

you use mastery on m+

[hazy breach]

And you have to feint constantly

Its just oof

[warm marlin]

and less energy since less attack speed i assume

[bleak wind]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/one-button-hekili-rotation-weakaura-discovered-and-now-fixed-377358?utm_source=discord-webhook thats good

[fluid fiber]

oh....didnt check tbh, my mistake. I just saw the pin and went for it

[hollow spear]

Spec flickerstrike and stack haste

[alpine wraith]

i mean charged bolts will be fine

you will just ninja pull

as expected

every time we have had an effect like this

[warm marlin]

funny thing about the new spymaster's btw: you only gain stacks if you are actively casting something every 10 seconds, so if the tier set does incentivize just auto attacking, you won't be overcapping stacks really

[clever delta]

Buy

[warm marlin]

if youre casting on 3mins

[clever delta]

Buuu

[alpine wraith]

you can still stab at full cp

[hazy breach]

I mean we can always just backstab

[clever delta]

They fixed already

[hazy breach]

Even at 7cp

[warm marlin]

yes

unless you had to reapply rupture

[alpine wraith]

likely will make a WA with 10 secs clock

[hazy breach]

Im doing some math and i cant see any feasible way to get 3 sectechs into blades im afraid

[molten citrus]

nice

[alpine wraith]

we think you skip first sec tech on blades

and use it on the first or second coup

onwards

onto 3 dances

2 strong sec techs with flag and blades

[hollow spear]

Flagellation maxxing

[hazy breach]

You still need massive amounts of sht resets

[alpine wraith]

will try it a bit on the weekend

rn im poemaxxing

[warm marlin]

from sprocket this week

was close

only got 1 coup

nvm i got 2

but that would bridge it

[hollow spear]

With double coup that would be another 5s of cdr?

[warm marlin]

10s since 2 coups

[hollow spear]

For dance I mean

[warm marlin]

this was the 90s window so i only started with 1.5 dances

its more about sectec cd

think if you sent that 3rd symbols its possible

[hollow spear]

But what's the play then?

[alpine wraith]

we need to try things

[hollow spear]

You go into flag with 2 stacks?

[alpine wraith]

the play is play the game

[warm marlin]

ya no real way without testing

but its bugged on ptr so gg

[alpine wraith]

as always

[hazy breach]

Like my math says that you'd need 6 sht resets total, so even if you start with 14 (aka 2 resets) thats still 14 procs of SHT you need

[hollow spear]

Yeah cannot play the game if it doesn't work haha

[hazy breach]

Which might be doable in BL because it seems to proc around every 1.1-1.2s during BL

But its tight

[warm marlin]

is that assuming you get 2 non tier coups

since youll be casting sectec way earlier

[hazy breach]

For triple sectech in blades

[twilit phoenix]

Nice WA pack

[hazy breach]

What

[twilit phoenix]

Zac’s group is goated fr

[hollow spear]

Yeah, but the idea was to maybe delay blades

[warm marlin]

start with coup ready -> cast 2 sectecs guarantees getting 2 coups in blades

4 with tier

[hollow spear]

To get the two later sectecs buffed

[hazy breach]

Well ye, but the question was for triple sectech in blades

[warm marlin]

ya i just meant for your sht math were you accounting for the cdr from 4 coups

[hollow spear]

Can't see that being reliable

[hazy breach]

Yes

[warm marlin]

okok

maybe turbo rng then

haste stack for variance reduction

[hazy breach]

But ye maybe we just delay blades a bit

Seems doable with BL though, but you'd need a fully stacked coup and 14 stacks before

So thats the 3 min burst

[hollow spear]

You might end up RNGing your way to that for the 100 parse once in blue moon

[hazy breach]

full nuclear

[hollow spear]

RL, can we delay lust until 3min

I need to parse

[warm marlin]

so

that picture from bove

i procced 22sht stacks in that blades window

without lust

hmm

[hazy breach]

Ye so thats not enough

You'd need 28

[warm marlin]

no that was not counting the 12 i entered with

34 total

[hazy breach]

Ye

[warm marlin]

[hazy breach]

Not counting those

[warm marlin]

holy moly

[hazy breach]

14+28

[warm marlin]

no way that happens

[hollow spear]

Lust maybe

Can scour your logs for that

[warm marlin]

gl convincing your raid to lust at 3mins

[hazy breach]

Hopefully 2p gets changed to be double proc instead of a cd reset and it might be doable

[warm marlin]

because you cant do this on pull

[hazy breach]

Well we dont have the 3 min burst on pull anyway

And most other specs are gonna use theirs at 2 min

[warm marlin]

ye and you would need the precoup and sht anyway

so not super realistic to have lust for it

[formal helm]

wth are you guys cookin' 💀

[hollow spear]

The demise of our spec

[warm marlin]

if it does become consistently possible on that window though

[hazy breach]

Doing big burst is not the demise of the spec

[warm marlin]

your 3min burst is going to be ridiculous

[hazy breach]

Thats peak

[hollow spear]

Flawless nerfs

[warm marlin]

if the change 2p and you can triple coup as well

my god

[hollow spear]

No, I'm talking about what comes after we've reached big burst

[warm marlin]

well 6x i guess

[hollow spear]

Nerfs

[hazy breach]

Not necessarily

Its not a 40% tier set

[warm marlin]

[hazy breach]

Cant wait to die 10s before burst

[hollow spear]

Yeah it's not the same as with tier set

[hazy breach]

Want to chop up my balls with a pairing knife if that happens

[warm marlin]

gonna be awful in keys thouogh

[hazy breach]

Dont think so

[warm marlin]

good luck doing uncapped aoe when you're casting 6 coups in blades

[hollow spear]

But we're going to translate the 55k agi into something completely absurd

I'm sure of it

[formal helm]

uncap trickster or we riot

[short radish]

gUYs wHICH spEc Are wE GOiNg to be PlaYing NExT tIEr

[hazy breach]

Its fine anyway

[formal helm]

wth is this

[hazy breach]

Trinket

[hollow spear]

Arcane mage

[warm marlin]

melee spymasters

[formal helm]

sus.

[hollow spear]

I don't know

Sounds broken

[formal helm]

ya

[hollow spear]

Just like spymaster was

[heady shell]

forgive me for being ignorant, what are SHT stacks

I don't recognize the acronym

[hazy breach]

Shadow techniques

[short radish]

is it me or whenever i see Sht stacks i just autofill it in my mind and read it as shit stacks

[hazy breach]

The extra cp you get to builders and refunds during symbols

[heady shell]

gotcha thanks

[formal helm]

think it's just you

[short radish]

i probably suffer from a minor amount of dyslexia

[formal helm]

eh happens

[hollow spear]

Shit stacks are the tier set stacks

[short radish]

true

[formal helm]

true.

[hollow spear]

"Just one small evis before flag"

[short radish]

also speaking of tier

is it me or does our new tier sound

kinda shit

[formal helm]

[short radish]

and deathstalker sound kinda good

[hollow spear]

What

[warm marlin]

i like the new tier a lot

[formal helm]

no, the other way around

[warm marlin]

it was turbo fun on outlaw when we had it with the bug

[hollow spear]

You're cooked fimbul

Are you trying to start a riot here

[short radish]

maybe i did just wake up

well 2p is rng and i fucking hate rng

4p is just extra coup?

i guess more cdr

[hollow spear]

Might change a lot

[short radish]

oh this is what you guys were talking about

[hazy breach]

Idk what part of the deathstalker one you like

[short radish]

with 3 sectechs in blades

[hollow spear]

People are cooking already

[short radish]

no rng

[formal helm]

I'd like if it didn't exist.

the deathstalker and the tier effect.

[hollow spear]

Fimbul is a secret BP in single target enjoyer

[short radish]

shut up i told you that in confidence

[hollow spear]

Oh shit (stacks)

[short radish]

DONT KINK SHAME ME

[left ledge]

The rng is fake anyways

You either can coup or you can’t

Tracking it is literally meaningless

[hollow spear]

It's 50/50

Either you win or you dont

[short radish]

yeah i suppose it matters a lot less than our current tier

[left ledge]

Our current tier is fucking ass

[hollow spear]

Current tier is asstronomically annoying

[short radish]

perhaps this tier has just made me sensitive to proc chance tier sets

[left ledge]

I go into my dance windows and only build 4 stacks then lose them immediately after

Literal fucking dogshit

[short radish]

damn youre getting 4 stacks?

nice

[hollow spear]

He eatin good

[short radish]

i actually got an opener last night with TFD talented and still had 2 stacks for my 2nd sectech

fuck this dog shit tier set

[left ledge]

At least the 2p rng for next tier is just “oh I got free unseen blade”

[short radish]

true

okay

i have woken up a bit more now

[left ledge]

You proccing it anyways in rotation

[short radish]

is this what the kids mean by woke?

[hollow spear]

We got free unseen blade at home

[formal helm]

yes

[left ledge]

You won’t strike again at full cp just because it reset cd

[hollow spear]

You won't?

[left ledge]

You definitely won’t

[short radish]

yeah 2p is just "hey that talent you have, you have it twice now "

surely they can cook somehting better

[left ledge]

The trickster set looks good

The deathstalker one is ???

[hollow spear]

Wait, maybe im confused. Currently you have the delayed sht proc from coup that makes you strike twice. Do you mean that? And if yes, how would that be fixed?

[left ledge]

The 2p should be the 4p

[hazy breach]

Idk maybe, which is why it would be so much better if it was insta proccing rather than resetting

[random hare]

buckle up

sub's about to be a 2min spec

[short radish]

no man

[formal helm]

wth is this.

[left ledge]

I mean unseen blade can “stack” right, so it’s not like we’re wasting it by not instantly using it

[hazy breach]

Well if using it means you get the coups of in dance

[hollow spear]

Not with melee spymaster being in the game

[hazy breach]

VS not getting them in dance

[left ledge]

I wonder how much that is worth

[formal helm]

link me that trinket, pls

[left ledge]

Must meet some very specific conditions

Can’t imagine it would be worth losing a finisher for example

[hazy breach]

Well coup is almost 2 finishers

[fluid moth]

the deathstalker set bonus is interesting... when it says effects do they mean all things, like darkest night and symbolic victory?

[hazy breach]

Or well, slightly more since more flawless stacks

[hollow spear]

Don't have it, Ryldd posted a picture earlier

[formal helm]

ait, ty

[hazy breach]

Damage effects

So everything that says plague damage (probably including singular focus, but not sure)

[fluid moth]

oh gross

[formal helm]

thank you!

[warm marlin]

works for agility too

obviously

[fluid moth]

because if it applied to lingering darkness, darkest night, symbolic victory etc that would be kinda busted

[short radish]

what if we ran double on use trinkets

[hazy breach]

Also +2 seconds of symbols

[left ledge]

The 2p for deathstalker def seems very strong number wise

[hazy breach]

Means supercharger gets less value or we munch pandemic

[hazy breach]

Idk does it

[left ledge]

Not comparing it to the trickster one

But a 2p doing that

The 4p is def weaker than the 2p for ds

Seems weird lmao

[hazy breach]

What

Its like 12% or so of your damage thats plague on ST

So 30% more on that during symbols only

Is not insane at all

Its more ass

[left ledge]

Does it say plague only

[short radish]

its not all damage, just the hero talent damage

[hazy breach]

Well what other damaging effects

Do we have

[left ledge]

Wouldn’t it apply to DN buffed evis for example

[hazy breach]

That isnt plague

[left ledge]

Is the pin wrong

The pin says all DS effects and bonuses

[hazy breach]

Ye youre right lmao, but it still seems kinda ass

[hollow spear]

Did we test this?

Ryldd

[formal helm]

god pls just don't make DS good.

fuck that hero talent

[warm marlin]

i dont have any addons on ptr

hard to test that sort of thing

[hazy breach]

So darkest night is 50% more eviscerate damage instead of 40%

[left ledge]

I mean doubling coup every time is just going to demolish DS anyways

[formal helm]

or at least rework it 1st.

[hollow spear]

The sin channel doesn't like it

So maybe they know sth

[formal helm]

amplifying poiosn envenom gets juiced up even more on assa

[bleak night]

more that its potentially boring compared to fatebound, not that its bad

[formal helm]

can't wait for it to hit for like 17 billion

[hollow spear]

And sin is basically "if eviscerate became a spec"

[graceful crown]

it's super funny btw, that a dot class has a harder hitting crit than the literal perfect combo finisher spec

[bleak night]

because dot classes havent existed in forever

there are classes that happen to have dots

there are not dot classes

[warm marlin]

the DN evis isn't hitting for much at all

[hollow spear]

Wasn't our rupture better than sins rupture in s1?

[formal helm]

[warm marlin]

but no raid buffs and scuffed gear

[graceful crown]

bring back bfa shadow rupture for sub

what was it called, nightshade

or something

[formal helm]

nighblade

[graceful crown]

night blades

[formal helm]

iirc

[graceful crown]

why did they change it to rupture

[formal helm]

[haughty mural]

Naaahh

Just woke up

[merry agate]

trickster tier set sounds promising?... more coups equals more cdr too?
get some more SD uptime 😮

[patent lichen]

they should revolve the tierset around rupture 🤡

[merry agate]

DS tier yaaaay more darkest nights! more eviscerates in aoe! OOF

[left ledge]

Nobody is playing DS

[merry agate]

thank god

[left ledge]

The trickster tier is infinitely better

Double coup is crazy strong

[merry agate]

more unseen blades = more coupes and can even be used 2 times... lots of CP for cdr

[hazy breach]

During dance you dont, you still BP

At more than 5

Ideally cancelaura on darkest night too during dances

[zenith prism]

if they want us to use DS set, make inevitability work for storm first

[merry agate]

yeah ignore the whole capstone talent
nice design blizz

[spring torrent]

hopefully they at least fix this stuff, and take secret technique off "pet" damage

[merry agate]

praying that there are some more changes in the oven...
killing spree change is pretty cool

[zenith prism]

also make unseenblade trackable

[hollow spear]

This tier set would be a good reason. But since they haven't made that a thing for two seasons, I doubt it.

[merry agate]

i mean like... shadowcraft was a cool addition... death perception too hell even dark brew was a cool idea

they still got it give us some innovation

[brittle plinth]

Everyone has to pvp next season it looks like

If they want the coolest tier look

Maybe a few don't

[hazy breach]

Notably no very rare items from this raid for rogues atleast

The boots show as "bonus loot" so thats presumably not very rare, because theyve been seperated in the past

Ok the "+30% effectiveness" from the ds tier doesnt pandemic

[swift tinsel]

What all is implemented on ptr so far?

[hazy breach]

Not the double coup

But yes

But idk this deathstalker tierset doesnt make any sense to me at all

The only thing ds is good at is pressing BP, for anything else its just ass

And this makes it so you proc darkest night more often, which is actively bad on aoe

Idk

[swift tinsel]

Yeah the sod consuming a charge part is just plain weird

If it supercharged that mark stack to do more damage that’d be one thing

Or made your next DN apply to Sectech/BP

[hazy breach]

And it makes it so if you want to play symbolic victory and do a symbols > darkest night

You need to be at 1 stack

?

[short radish]

DS is dead

long live trickster

im sure they wont buff BP by 100% mid tier

[swift tinsel]

Idk they can just leave DS so we don’t have to think about it ever

I’d be fine with that

[hazy breach]

Clearly designed around assa and sub is just shoehorned in

[swift tinsel]

Are both hero bonuses testable atm

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[swift tinsel]

Ah, wasn’t sure if that was a response to something else

Arguably the most impactful trickster thing not ready yet lol

[tribal blade]

can someone ELI5 the trickster double coup

[swift tinsel]

Apparently prot war is in shambles, having to do a welfare check on a guild mate atm

[swift tinsel]

Coup twice per cast

[tribal blade]

ah ok

[swift tinsel]

Well, per 4 stacks

[tribal blade]

wow that's really fucking good

holy shit

[swift tinsel]

So extra cdr

The 2pc is a bit more contentious because another rng layer upon rng

[tribal blade]

so 2pc gives more coup, and coup gives more coup

wow besides the rng trickster tier set is BANGING

[swift tinsel]

4pc has some interesting gameplay improvements

[tribal blade]

i assume there's gonna be some shenanigans where you coup>sectec>coup during dance