It's not even about cds
#subtlety
sly shore
there's zero chance outlaw can compete on a 1.5m burst window
leaden prairie
I would play outlaw and we would 4 phase and it would be similar timer mostly
Ye but you can phase in 1 min
Instead
north schooner
What if they fixed it but they intentionally left it off the pins so that only the elite will get to benefit from the substantial dps gain of switching corruption? Puts on tinfoil hat
leaden prairie
In the end it's similar timer
Issue is outlaw can just giga low roll
Especially if you need to stop dps
And then you do tank damage
And you 6 phase
leaden prairie
yep
sly shore
Would be nice if they gave outlaw a cd
and reduced apm to make it more accessible
but that will never happen
idk, maybe a name change too
perhaps combat
sounds very rogue-like
leaden prairie
Would be nice if they gave outlaw a cd
why
leaden prairie
and reduced apm to make it more accessible
why
I appreciate outlaw and a big part of it is not having a cd
and obv the apm
sly shore
but it's biggest weakness is not having a cd
leaden prairie
ye but
paper iron
i appreciate zac and a big part of it is that i never talk with him
leaden prairie
its fine tho
sly shore
the average player absolutely
leaden prairie
Give me 3 charges
leaden prairie
Look at ml first boss Kieron
sly shore
is what most people hate
leaden prairie
It's a damage amp boss right
But the damage amps are very close together so I'm able to hold my stuffs without killing my buffs
And outlaw is one of the best spec on that boss
Hell it might be the best spec
sly shore
arcane mage is far far better
leaden prairie
And it's a boss with a damage amp!
Holy shmoly
Ye well arcane mage is different
sly shore
1.15 spec batchest
leaden prairie
We don't talk about arcane mage
north schooner
If subtlety was a mage spec it would be good
sly shore
got beat by arms warrior on boss damage
in the 21 you did
chinese log
they really do be slamming the boss
they killed it 20s faster in a 22 too
arcane mage/uhdk with funnel is just ludicrous
sly shore
Im looking at boss damage on first boss of ML
leaden prairie
ah
sly shore
Exclusively
sly shore
leaden prairie
i tought you meant rook
sly shore
Hell naw
leaden prairie
no ye trust me kieron
i have done
impossibly hgih damage
on that boss
its just a bit rng
cause damage amp boss you know how it is
brittle plinth
Do you target infused add or boss on that encounter?
sly shore
I purposefully chose damage to boss there because both groups pulled adds on bosses to get boss damage
sly shore
And the problem is outlaw doesn't really gain boss damage for more adds
Like those other classes do
Its hard to 1:1 but
There's no shot outlaw can come close
To those freak specs
sly shore
Even uhdk there
sly shore
@leaden prairie do you still have mouseover default action bars
leaden prairie
yes
leaden prairie
y
sly shore
the classic AI icon
leaden prairie
ye
sly shore
idk if it's better with addon or wa
leaden prairie
Add-ons are easier to maintain
How I view things is
If it's something I don't customize
It's better to be an addon
I click update all and it's updated
sly shore
Ye
local bars = {
MainMenuBar,
MultiBarBottomLeft,
MultiBarBottomRight,
MultiBar5,
MultiBarRight,
MultiBarLeft,
BagsBar,
MicroMenu
}
for _, bar in ipairs(bars) do
local hoverFrame = CreateFrame("Frame", nil, bar)
hoverFrame:SetAllPoints(bar)
hoverFrame:SetFrameStrata("TOOLTIP")
hoverFrame:SetScript("OnEnter", function(self)
self:GetParent():SetAlpha(1)
end)
hoverFrame:SetScript("OnLeave", function(self)
self:GetParent():SetAlpha(0)
end)
hoverFrame:EnableMouse(false)
hoverFrame:EnableMouseMotion(true)
bar:SetAlpha(0)
end
_G.BUDSACTIONBARMOUSEOVER = true
--ViragDevTool_AddData(MainMenuBar)
end```If any of these get deprecated for example
get rekt
leaden prairie
ye
also i like these type of addons
cause when they break at start of expac
idc
its not like when elvui break
and you cant do anything anymore
leaden prairie
leaden prairie
it's just "oh no my action bars are visible"
crazy this isnt a baseline UI thing btw
oh blizzard
sly shore
It really should be
mouseover bars are too goated
I might just delete bartender and use that
steel jolt
what does bartender even offer at this point than the stock UI does not?
leaden prairie
when we do ptr stuffs i can login, copy my weak aura and play basically
leaden prairie
hm
sly shore
but that's so niche only one person I know does that
leaden prairie
why would you do tthat
sly shore
one of the weird and wacky ways people play wow
This is a cool addon
combined with unlimited map pin distance addon
vale pine
https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/waypointui
interessting that it works, i though wow cracked down on functionality
my gf just installed
^ to be able to click through and move the popup alerts, as it can be annoying at times
sly shore
some weird niche addons that do weird things
sly shore
ya works for most things too if I recall
harsh nimbus
!corruption
vale pine
Use either Void Rital as good allrounder
Or Wounds for single target
serene notch
For last boss of rookery it’s send on pull and have another window for 2nd burn phase yea?
hazy breach
Very much depends on what key level youre doing
On higher keys you typically dont send on pull and hold dps so you can get the 90s cds for every phase, but thats not gonna workout at like 14s
serene notch
I see, that’s how a I ran it on a 14 to time, currently grinding 15 rook and not enough at bats. I can’t seem to find a group that can clear trash pack before boss two without crashing out.
harsh nimbus
Use either Void Rital as good allrounder
Or Wounds for single target
Yeah i sim it and even in ST its void ritual
vale pine
perfect
west scroll
I'm trying out Sub 
hazy breach
Have fun 
sullen hare
just the standard issue never hold your CDs always just send em
"what about that big pack coming up?" don't worry about it
swift tinsel
Its good at certain target/Find Weakness debuff counts
west scroll
Well we gooned that WS+10, just need to get a better feel
carmine portal
what does bartender even offer at this point than the stock UI does not?
Have you compared the two side by side? I have moved to 90% basic UI but Bartender is just way better than default. The scaling is better, way more stuff to show/hide/zoom, not to mention the ability to show/hide things in/out of combat on/off mounts and so on
sacred yarrow
what does bartender even offer at this point than the stock UI does not?
show when hover, hidden elsewise
carmine portal
Again, I'd love to not need it but it's too good not to have, same with the addon that lets you customize the default UI Cooldown bars extensively
warm marlin
default edit mode can be customized to hide bars in/out of combat
it doesn't have the mouseover functionality though 
haughty rose
show me what you got
sullen hare
Subtlety
- All abilities are now on the Global Cooldown (GCD)
warm marlin
show me what you got
shadowstrike no longer applies find weakness
lilac stag
Shadow Dance removed.
sly shore
show me what you got
can't get worse than it is already surely
keen dome
Flagellation can be parried
lilac stag
Pretty sure that it was originally
formal helm
ye think it was possible
lilac stag
maybe mis-remembering.
cobalt vector
in SL it was
hollow spear
Subtlety is no longer purple themed
hollow spear
sorry for dropping a nuke
cobalt vector
lets go back to flag giving haste 😄
warm marlin
@chrome palm 
fleet wharf
Doesn't that mostly affect dot classes?
warm marlin
no lol
you could turbo pump your logs by sending cb sectec into the amped shockers or whatever
black powder dynamite booty
fleet wharf
If you target boss to cleave onto the amped guys it doesn't get buffed by the increased damage taken right?
warm marlin
nimble flurry and sectec cleave will be amped yes but youll be amping 60% of a spell instead of 100%
fleet wharf
i mean that's technically true, but weren't it mostly affli/destro locks and shadoiw priests abusing the increased damage taken from those?
warm marlin
not trying to call anyone out but not necessarily
brave moth
Seems like your locks suck
warm marlin
not my log
lilac stag
it would be higher if his
brave moth
kekw
warm marlin
it would be higher if his
we don't even break them out after the first set man
its not possible
lilac stag
🪵🚨🚔
warm marlin
we dont spawn premium dynamite we don't break the electro shockers out
it was so OVER
until the partition
fleet wharf
man, i wanted to farm some parses on my shadow priest, and they nerf it as I get to mugz
lilac stag
new partition tomorrow batchest
Just wait for NA to be fucked again for the first 16 hours.
warm marlin
5% + delve belt
sly shore
cos blizzards version control is out the window
warm marlin
3.6 on sprocket?
fleet wharf
lmao so we're just expecting them to fuck up and let the 10% buff go through tmr?
warm marlin
its still on ptr so ya
sly shore
I might just play sub for rest of patch anyway
warm marlin
it has felt good in our raids
sly shore
I don't blindside proc on assa
fleet wharf
lilac stag
I might just play sub for rest of patch anyway
Don’t you mean Dev?
warm marlin
i dont see much reason to play sin
and i get to make my raid happy with the parry bug
sly shore
Don’t you mean Dev?
I am alternating week on week
unfortunately
but my dev needs mug jug and jastor
lilac stag
Just be sick rogue weeks
chrome palm
<@588903099867856907> <:Cinema:1282411295496474798>
Thank god I wasn’t hitting it with my cold blooded sec tech haha… wouldn’t be me…
Also finally bandit on the menu
That was a lot more impactful than mugzee tbh
warm marlin
eh even if you weren't padding if your cds got delayed at all and your boss didnt insta die you would gain a lot from nimble flurry on the shockers
but ye im more excited for bandit
chrome palm
Naturally I was just making sure I didn’t get the left ice boots assignment before popping cds 🌚
If they do the extra 5% and then fix it before my raid I’ll cry 😭
warm marlin
another fun part about my guilds mugzee
we do the boots on first gaols backwards
and have since prog started
the melee go to the far gaol
and the ranged go to the close one
getting boots means you lose like 6s minimum uptime
chrome palm
I don’t really pay too much attention to it but 80% of the time I’m right gaol I just assume the liquid weak aura did that automatically
Do you manually assign melee and ranged going to different ones?
warm marlin
Do you manually assign melee and ranged going to different ones?
no its liquid wa
it might just be that we have mixed up our left and right ngl
chrome palm
It sounds like it lol
One mrt note change
Will change your push time lol
I didn’t even think we had that in our note tbh
This raid has made me brain dead because I have no assignments
Every boss is just hit boss
warm marlin
me and the melee homies chilling 8 miles from boss
warm marlin
lmfao
chrome palm
It’s left because you’re looking at the middle of the screen
warm marlin
yea so when we started on prog
we made it clear that it was looking at the walls
not middle
chrome palm
Lmao
warm marlin
so this is right gaol
chrome palm
Ok we understand it a little differently it seems
warm marlin
i mean flipping the other way is just better
it doesnt matter enough for me to complain
im sure if we flipped it back now we would have infinity deaths to spears
chrome palm
I think we just did it this way to prevent people from getting confused since they would be positioned near lava by the way when the mechanic came out
That is always super annoying when you do a boss a certain way on prog
And never “correct” it
warm marlin
im used to it enough by now that I hold sprint and just dip in with like 2s left and then step
its not the end of the world
chrome palm
No but it is def nice since you can be in your cds
With the current timing delaying cds at all puts you at risk of losing a cast
warm marlin
can you flag at the regular time even if you get boots with the other gaol
surely you drop a global or two regardless
chrome palm
Other gaol i think is fine since we tank the boss near it
Preposition for the side switch
I don’t really lose globals then
chrome palm
It was just a conversation we had early on about what left/right meant and it made sense considering your position changes from when the cages are being set vs when the ice boots are going out
shrewd lantern
I feel its easier if you just
chrome palm
We always used liquid though idk what nsky does
shrewd lantern
keep it the same
for all
nsky does some cooked flip the positions for frost boots
as opposed to cages
chrome palm
Clearly the liquid wa thinks right is the close one since it assigns melee to it
fallow nimbus
!bug
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker
fallow nimbus
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.what was the command for the tfd macro?
shrewd lantern
just take arrow to one then step boss
fallow nimbus
ah man
void hound
so mugzee and oab adds are not counted anymore on WCL?
warm marlin
reel assistants and goons still count but ya the rest gone as of next week
void hound
right
honest grail
Bros I'm missing HoC and Jastor's which is most important to get
KNowing I reclear weekly
chrome palm
For sub it would be hoc it’s your only on use trinket
vale pine
hoc is the most important item to get, if you have no hoc just get it
graceful crown
i hate this set
how i had no buffs in a completely window burst
????
had 2 dices at the end of the first 8 seconds haha
clever delta
its not somtimes
its every second set of cds
and robot say not hold stacks before next go
love to lose 8 of them 15s before cd just to boost that one evi
hollow spear
I'm usually a staunch anti feelycrafter
But the robot telling me to gamble away my 8 stacks for a measly 300k evis just feels wrong
haughty mural
Agreed
shy scarab
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
tropic pier
ive got mythic hoc, jastor, kezan, pacemaker, magnet. Is there anything even useful for me to dinar for sub/sin
hazy breach
Not really no, you dont need bad luck protection if youre never having bad luck in the first place
tropic pier
I guess i can dinar an outlaw weapon
but killing spree really makes me not want to play it..m
ornate heron
is anyone having problems with cooldown manager and the buff bar not tracking any sub abilities?
track bars in particular
warm marlin
@hazy breach wowhead suggests the aura is fixed on ptr
im not sure if there is a better way to tell
hazy breach
<@212854714197344256> wowhead suggests the aura is fixed on ptr
Ye i saw, should be fixed
warm marlin
saved
short radish
those specifically do not track ANYTHING on sub for me?
well all of what youre circling is assi stuff
but i assume the buff stuff will update for sub
ornate heron
yeah i know im in assa right now but i was just asking for sub
short radish
perhaps change it to sub and then try again
neat zephyr
agreed, but wanted to see if it was an isolate issue or not
short radish
typically only casuals use it and they probably wouldnt know enough to help with the issue
and all the sweatlords will still use weak auras
because why change what isnt broken
neat zephyr
ok
ornate heron
so the answer is blizzard cd manager is not working correctly and they released an unfinished version of it?
short radish
sure
well
if its not working
its not working right?
its less unfinished, but rather it's still in continous development
neat zephyr
was just an effort to crowd source some data even if the intention isn't to actually use it 😂
serene notch
small moral victory after so many failed keys
15s are brutal....cant imagine 16s atm
steel jolt
they're easy just don't die
serene notch
hold on you have a news letter i can subscribe to?
steel jolt
yes but it's down for Tuesday maintenance
serene notch
lol ok ill make sure i read y our pacth notes
chrome palm
<@212854714197344256> wowhead suggests the aura is fixed on ptr
the 5%?
chrome palm
so the answer is blizzard cd manager is not working correctly and they released ...
last timed i used it the sin one showed an envenom icon that didnt update or change or do anything besides be there
tribal blade
just double checking, on reset we can farm w/e delve is overcharged at tier 1 to unlock everything regarding the belt asap, is that right?
kindred herald
New to sub and trying to understand the aoe rotation. Is this meaning to use black powder in aoe as long as flawless form is not up and and to always use it at 7+ targets even with flawless form?
lucid jackal
kindred herald
Same true with shuriken storm vs backstab as well or is it worth it use shuriken storm on lower target counts for the additional combo points?
warm marlin
just double checking, on reset we can farm w/e delve is overcharged at tier 1 to...
Unless they changed it since I did it on ptr 12 hours ago it was literally one tier 1 delve
Overcharged ofc
tribal blade
Unless they changed it since I did it on ptr 12 hours ago it was literally one t...
ah ok sick
warm marlin
Grab quest from dorn -> go do 1 or 2 tier 1 delves -> yippee 691 charged bolts belt
tribal blade
does it matter which specific overcharged delve you choose to do
or can you do any of the 2
warm marlin
shouldn’t matter
I did side street but I don’t think it’s the one that unlocks charged bolts
shy scarab
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
wild hornet
On m gallywix, is the overall DPS difference in sending CDs on pull vs. on 30s when the first platform adds spawn?
The logs seem half/half
tepid trellis
delaying just makes it line up with all the add sets, that you can
you'll still do z dmg if you got a good group at dealing with burst AoE regardless of what you do
cloud rover
Ours die instantly
wild hornet
I see, if they burst them down too fast I should shift CDs back to on pull?
tepid trellis
doesent really matter
more so comes down to kill timer if you loose a set or not
but then again, dmg doesent really matter on that fight
so might as well do a bit of padding
sly shore
all these fights are cringe no matter what
worst designed raid for fairness in damage spread in a minute
50% of the classes in the game slam out 100M damage in 3 globals at some point
haughty mural
But they always cry about my fat sectechs
keen dome
they fear our spooky ghost men
haughty mural
Hey purple loverman did you btw realize that every week the model of the ethereal is enhanced ?
Your dream is coming true - soon they will confirm it
haughty mural
Few things missing
north schooner
very important
haughty mural
It’s called muscle
north schooner
do they have the tbc death animation?
vale pine
Soon I can become a purple mummy
wait, was it confirmed to be a race?
did i miss an announcement 👀
haughty mural
Nothing confirmed yet, but every week when i press my toy - the model changed
north schooner
hoping is only one letter away from coping
haughty mural
And I got a hearthstone cast animation now
keen dome
There's a load of interesting models in 11.1 and probably 11.1.7 too that make me think that they'll do something
One of them looks like it could be a 'naked' one wihout armour
https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/blog/images/46323-new-ethereal-models-datamined-in-the-war-within-patch-11-1.jpg And there's this too
Where it's got some good armour rigging over the base model
keen dome
I'm really curious waht the racia'll be
sly shore
ofc if they can be rogue (there's no way they won't)
keen dome
They've already given transmog discount to velves, but that's one I would've given to them
Watch it be "you can open void storage anywhere"
keen dome
🙏
lilac stag
2% extra haste
sly shore
I got plenty of that
north schooner
their active will be the ability to spawn a dance studio for everyone
lilac stag
shadow dmg amp that won’t work with anything
keen dome
I'm going to bet one will be a movement ability.
wild hornet
so might as well do a bit of padding
True true, now the real question is, is it time yet for shuriken tornado 
lilac stag
Never
wild hornet
I saw one log with it and I feel like it might be nice to have actually
lilac stag
Useless fucking spell
wild hornet
Why bother to build when you can just spend 
keen dome
they should delete shuriken tornado, replace it with a picture of a duck, and just have the text read "duck" and it doesn't do anything
it would be an improvement
short radish
haughty mural
I'm going to bet one will be a movement ability.
Actually they could just take everything from velves and it would fit 
keen dome
It would, haha
sly shore
@leaden prairie I told you people don't like vanish as a cd https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1ldba12/horrific_visions_last_bosses_as_a_rogue/
vale pine
luckily its not a cd for sub ^^
vale pine
not using vanish is rly low in inpact
sly shore
talking bout for the other specs
also the fact that threat is broken for shadow dance still
is outrageous
vale pine
Its broken in, it still applies the thread aura
which is also a positive in raid/mythic+ where you typically don't want aggro
especially with how problematic burst damage was lately
when certain classes needed to wait to do damage to not get smacked to death instantly
leaden prairie
<@352916297262301194> I told you people don't like vanish as a cd https://www.re...
ye i eman
thats casual stfufs
vale pine
So i don't think its all bad, but for sure is a concern in solo content
leaden prairie
we know vanish doesnt work in outdoor content
i think thats like
a non issue tho
in outdoor content you can just play any build
sly shore
it's not though
sly shore
because it's what the majority of players play
so it's a bigger issue
than you think
leaden prairie
I disagree
I couldn't care less
If little Timmy doing visions
Is annoyed by vanihs
sly shore
the non-crackshot build that totally exists
leaden prairie
For outdoor content ?
Ye lol
You are gonna tell me people that do outdoor content play even close to good enough to notice diffs between builds
sly shore
You are telling me that people who do outdoor content won't get blizzard to change the design of a spec
leaden prairie
You legit go full vigor with supercharger and green skin ho for outdoor
And it's probably better
leaden prairie
Maybe it's a wowhead issue
That crackshot builds
Are also presented
For outdoor content
sly shore
Blizzard will very likely change it for the 80% and not the 20%
sly shore
I know you're being reductive again just because you like it
keen dome
I think Zac has a pretty interesting point there about it being a WoWhead and like, information propagation issue though. Not sure what you could realistically do though 'cos people just wanna play game.
leaden prairie
I know you're being reductive again just because you like it
you think it make sense for lil bobby doing questing to copy r1 raider io build ?
sly shore
the information on those other builds is predecated on the knowledge or presentation of them
leaden prairie
thats not on me
sly shore
Not the fact that they are actually existing
leaden prairie
talk to guy
keen dome
People will always like. Rush in and grab whatever is most popular.
leaden prairie
people that are doing non instanced content shouldnt be playing hard builds
keen dome
I see people telling people in trade to go grab whatever i smost popular from Murk.io without anyt hought
sly shore
It's like putting your fingers in your ears and going "lalalala I cannot hear you" when people say they genuinely hate vanish as a cd, especially when they are the majority consumers of wow
keen dome
Vanish does suck in a lot of circumstances, though.
keen dome
Blizz should just design it to function in a more intelligent manner in some circumstances
sly shore
you can not care, but I can guarantee you it will eventually get removed because of it
sly shore
Hopefully
keen dome
Like, if you are fighting a boss solo like Thrall, it just shouldn't drop aggro as quickly.
sly shore
dog shit button that requires tracking
sly shore
and is overly confusing and limits accessibility
sly shore
I hate what outlaw is currently
keen dome
What would you replace rtb with?
sly shore
Hell no
Like idk why you're trying to push it back on to me as if I'm showing some bias
leaden prairie
People when outlaw isn't sub or assa 
leaden prairie
Bro
sly shore
for a specific issue
sly shore
skill isn't really a thing when it comes to class design though
tulip gorge
listening to what redditors have to say
leaden prairie
I still think you need specs for every type of players
wary plover
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.Just make it so vanish doesn't immediately reset a fight in solo content and bam solved.
leaden prairie
And you can't have every spec be bm hunter
sly shore
I'm not saying outlaw is too hard
I'm saying that most people think vanish as a cd is poor design
the majority of wow players, even
leaden prairie
And I'm telling you half the tree is not vanihs
You play ho supercharger vigor
That's s1 df outlaw
It will do less damage
keen dome
But most people probably don't even know that's a viable option.
sly shore
keen dome
Be the change you want to see. The Zac Open World content stream.
leaden prairie
You shouldn't copy r1 raiderio build
When you are questing
If you are doing so you are stupid
sly shore
man I sure do hate that people try and follow the most convenient method of attaining information
keen dome
I'm going to play the r1 raider.io build and go do pet battles
But like - just change vanish so it doesn't immedaitely drop aggro in solo content
leaden prairie
man I sure do hate that people try and follow the most convenient method of atta...
bro you are saying that the best m+ build not working for world quests is an issue
isnt the point of talents
keen dome
It's an issue on all specs, and it's dumb 'cos they can absolutely make it function differently depending on content.
sly shore
sly shore
where's the no vanish build
In fact, there is absolutely zero information about non-vanish builds
leaden prairie
sly shore
kinda crazy that people don't know you can play without vanish
tulip gorge
kinda crazy people just copy paste builds
also it is kinda crazy people struggle with open world content
vanish is not even an issue if you press bte fast enough
leaden prairie
also kieron
as a matter of fact
if you just insta break vanish you never reset anything
fallow nimbus
Ngl i struggled so much as rogue in the visions while just rushing 8 masks as dh without ever reading any talents. I don't even know the name of the fury spenders 
leaden prairie
just skill issue
keen dome
also it is kinda crazy people struggle with open world content
The context of the discussion was Vanish resetting bosses in visions which isn't really open world content and could easily be solved tbh
leaden prairie
Brotherman
keen dome
Blizz just need to like. Make Vanish not reset bosses when solo!!! It's so easy
leaden prairie
If you think the guide
Isn't cattered for world quests
Which its isn't
Cause no one cares
Take it with guy
sly shore
It literally says
leaden prairie
It's a non issue
tulip gorge
The context of the discussion was Vanish resetting bosses in visions which isn't...
I did visions as outlaw and my vanish was not resetting aggro (because I was pressing my buttons fast enough)
sly shore
delves/leveling/world content
leaden prairie
You are trying to make it like it's a huge issue
sly shore
leaden prairie
You are acting stupid now
sly shore
I'm really not
leaden prairie
?
keen dome
I did visions as outlaw and my vanish was not resetting aggro (because I was pre...
fair, but I still think it's an easy solve
north schooner
leaden prairie
That build isn't even trickster which is probably the dumbest thing ever for world content
tulip gorge
Blizz just need to like. Make Vanish not reset bosses when solo!!! It's so easy
and what if you actually want to use vanish as intended
and drop aggro?
leaden prairie
Fact is
Guy doesn't care one but
About world content
Which I can't blame him
Because I don't care either
sly shore
You're the one blinded by your own niche of knowledge that you can't understand the majority of players do not see the game like you and don't play the game like you
leaden prairie
About random billy
sly shore
we are literally the 10%
fleet wharf
but we need random billy so they make enough money to keep developing this game
tulip gorge
you have a grace period where you don't lose aggro after you press vanish, literally just press a button during that period
keen dome
and what if you actually want to use vanish as intended
You just have a bit more of a grace periord on it, I dunno. Like, 2 - 3 seconds and then it drops it once the debuff falls? I think there's a way to do both pretty easily.
naive mantle
You're the one blinded by your own niche of knowledge that you can't understand ...
are you expecting zac to hack wowhead and put up a no-vanish build or something
leaden prairie
And the game should be tuned around us because lil billy can play whatever the fuck he want
fallow nimbus
Just make mobs stand around confused for 3 secs if you vanish but don't attack so you can still reset but if you attack during the vanish seconds then you remain infight
leaden prairie
If lil billy
sly shore
if 90% of players hate something but the 10% don't, do you seriously think blizzard will keep it that way for the 10%
keen dome
Just make mobs stand around confused for 3 secs if you vanish but don't attack s...
That's not a bad solution, yeah.
leaden prairie
Not my fault wowhead doesn't have it as a default for shitters
tulip gorge
if 90% of players hate something but the 10% don't, do you seriously think blizz...
yes blizzard should not design the game for the lowest common denominator
otherwise every spec would be ret or bm hunter
leaden prairie
if 90% of players hate something but the 10% don't, do you seriously think blizz...
They still haven't deleted rtb so
Also again
You need specs for everyone
north schooner
what if lil billy wants to play combat? 
sly shore
They haven't fixed the entirety of rogue, let alone removing rtb 
leaden prairie
If you make every spec bm hunter
What would people like me play
And that's true for every game
tulip gorge
you don't matter zac
naive mantle
what if lil billy wants to play combat? <:thinkBaguette:644222442872635403>
log on classic angle? 🌞
leaden prairie
Because lil billy knows he is a shitter
keen dome
MoP classic is out soon. Big time combat gaming.
north schooner
the disrespect for rammus
sly shore
rogue is at an all time low as played count, can't think why
leaden prairie
I can
tulip gorge
is outlaw/combat fun to play in mop classic?
leaden prairie
It sucks in every content
keen dome
Because lil billy knows he is a shitter
I mean that's a pretty small minority 'cos most people don't realize they're bad at the game
sly shore
It's also the worst designed it's ever been because of hero talents on all 3 specs
keen dome
the rare shitter who's self-aware
sly shore
leaden prairie
They litteraly
Didn't even bother
With hero talents
Guys
Why is rogue
Not played
I do not understand
sick token
Hi I'm new to wow and I don't know what talents to start with to play all the content and finish leveling up. Any advice?
leaden prairie
All 3 hero talents are shit design
sly shore
holy fuck what banger timing
tulip gorge
well first off rogue is a pain in the ass to level
tulip gorge
and that turns off new people
keen dome
Zac, your time is NOW
leaden prairie
Hi I'm new to wow and I don't know what talents to start with to play all the co...
Is this bait
north schooner
the fact that trickster is the least bad hero talent tree of the 3 speaks for itself tbh
leaden prairie
Hi I'm new to wow and I don't know what talents to start with to play all the co...
I have a banger no vanish build for you
sick token
letsgo
tulip gorge
deathstalker is decent too
keen dome
deathstalker is decent too
now this is just cruel
tulip gorge
now this is just cruel
for assa*
sick token
While you are here, what's your take on vanish
idk man u go invisible and its good no?
north schooner
fine, what is your take on the great emu war then?
leaden prairie
here check wowhead its good https://www.wowhead.com/guide/classes/rogue/subtlety/talent-builds-pve-dps
you will be playing trickster in every content
and most sub builds play the same anyway
cant really go wrong
keen dome
Truth
keen dome
You swap like, one or two talents between raid / M+. Rotation is identical on both, really.
leaden prairie
Plays exactly the same
keen dome
But you get to be purple
tulip gorge
but you see, sub rotation is not straightforward
it has many buttons with charges on them
they need to change sub to be like ret paladin
keen dome
No way I like my discord time.
leaden prairie
it has many buttons with charges on them
Which is very unintuitive
sick token
can i follow Hekili for rotation or no?
leaden prairie
Thoughts on deleting charges from every sub spell
sly shore
NO MY MEME
keen dome
lmfao
tulip gorge
Thoughts on deleting charges from every sub spell
no
leaden prairie
Too late
keen dome
can i follow Hekili for rotation or no?
You should ty to learn it without but, like. Sure, I guess. Or the one-button that's coming in. Do what works for you but most people'll suggest learning it
sly shore
You are cooked !
I am the cook, not the cooked
leaden prairie
@sick token Who is your favorite ravenhold user between me and this Kieron guy
sick token
You should ty to learn it without but, like. Sure, I guess. Or the one-button th...
okok
sly shore
leaden prairie
Careful who you chose
sick token
<@699525472027017267> Who is your favorite ravenhold user between me and this Ki...
I've known you for 2 minutes but I could entrust my future son to you, you are the best
sly shore
same to me though
tulip gorge
at least he doesn't ask blizzard to change outlaw because of outdoor content
leaden prairie
I've known you for 2 minutes but I could entrust my future son to you, you are t...
thanks
i agree
@sly shore
read that bozo
sly shore
Damn random guy who i don't know
north schooner
huge L
leaden prairie
Damn random guy who i don't know
nah you got owned
north schooner
you will never recover from this
sly shore
No recovery at this point really
leaden prairie
take the L you noob
wild hornet
they should delete shuriken tornado, replace it with a picture of a duck, and ju...
Yeah I feel convinced to talent into it now
This is a spender season anyway
leaden prairie
this guy represent everything you stood for kieron
and he took my side
thats how you do it
keen dome
I gotta post more, geez
leaden prairie
if you need coaching let me know
sly shore
Yeah, he's totally not someones friend who joined the discord just to get in on the conversation
get bricked
sick token
Yeah, he's totally not someones friend who joined the discord just to get in on ...
u the real top 1 rogue?
leaden prairie
Even for you Kieron
sick token
not zac?
leaden prairie
No way he is changing sides !
sly shore
This is you all
sick token
sly shore
short radish
HE FUCKING CAN
where is the no vanish build on wowhead
north schooner
leaden prairie
where is the no vanish build on wowhead
NAH BUDDY ASK GUY NOT ME
fallow nimbus
Where were you when the zul front fell?
short radish
well you cant say lil timmy can play a no vanish build when timmy doesnt know about a no vanish build
sly shore
he doesn't care about the majority of players 
leaden prairie
lil timmy should play noob build
sly shore
uncaring zac
leaden prairie
he doesn't care about the majority of players <:SAD:718207731185745922>
truth
sly shore
frenchman syndrome
short radish
lil timmy should play the noob build which isnt known on one of the major wow help site thingies
do you see the flaw in that logic
north schooner
make outlaw ret but with blades instead of light
short radish
people are going to copypaste the first build they see
short radish
you cant go THEY SHOULD PLAY THIS OTHER BUILD
sly shore
the problem doesn't exist
leaden prairie
do you see the flaw in that logic
Nah what
short radish
and then go
sly shore
that's how it works
leaden prairie
It's a flaw in wowhead
short radish
YEAH NOT MY FAULT ITS NOT PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE
leaden prairie
Not in my logic
And again
I do not
Have access
To wowhead
Take it with guy not me
I hate wowhead
short radish
okay so you keep saying timmy should play the build
north schooner
what is the "default" outlaw build ingame? The one where blizzard chooses talents?
short radish
how should he find the build then
sly shore
what is the "default" outlaw build ingame? The one where blizzard chooses talent...
log in and find out for us
leaden prairie
He should find the build on wowhead
sly shore
I have a job
leaden prairie
If wowhead
keen dome
Like I said, Zac should stream the build. Show it off.
leaden prairie
Was better
north schooner
I am working too, in theory at least
leaden prairie
It's not my fault
keen dome
Hang on I'm in-game lemme check
sly shore
based
keen dome
I'm curius
leaden prairie
I'm at work..
sly shore
I'm at work too
keen dome
sly shore
working hard or hardly working am I right guys lOL
leaden prairie
Wtf it changed
north schooner
i like working when I do it from home
leaden prairie
That's litteraly just a meta build now
short radish
if timmy wants to play non vanish build he can -> okay how should he find it then -> wowhead is shit and doesnt have it
so then how the fuck is timmy supposed to play non vanish build. he cant because he doesnt know about it
even if wowhead is shit, timmy still can't play the non vanish build because he doesnt know about it
leaden prairie
Bro
sly shore
even the start build has it
keen dome
What's the starter Sub..
short radish
sly shore
maybe the starter build should have no vanish
tulip gorge
if timmy wants to play non vanish build he can -> okay how should he find it the...
lil timmy can use his brain, read the talents and make his own build...
tulip gorge
then timmy should go play ret
void hound
the starter build should create a ret paladin
short radish
yes
north schooner
I bet starter sub uses goremaw
short radish
timmy really should go play ret
keen dome
leaden prairie
if timmy wants to play non vanish build he can -> okay how should he find it the...
My argument is, they shouldn't delete vanish build because it's bad in outdoor content, because there is other builds that you can play in outdoor content.
IT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT MY FAULT IF WOWHEAD DOES NOT HAVE THE CORRECT SHITTER BUILD YOU ABSOLUTE PSYCHOPATH
I
AM
NOT
WOWHEAD
keen dome
It doesn't give you hero talents in starter builds which is why Outlaw didn't have any but Sub does
void hound
hello mr wowhead
keen dome
I'm the fucking Tea node on Sub as Starter lmao
white briar
you know you can vanish in solo content and not reset mobs right? just gotta be fast
north schooner
shadowheart 
tulip gorge
the extra energy is great for noobs
keen dome
I agree but it's an extra button.
north schooner
tbh tea for starter "makes sense" in that new players will like the energy
short radish
or just make a new button that simulates vanish, and keeps vanish as a separate defensive
keen dome
A common complaint about Sub is that it has too many buttons.
leaden prairie
you know you can vanish in solo content and not reset mobs right? just gotta be ...
Also yes
north schooner
it's not an extra button if you only auto-cast it
leaden prairie
But also
short radish
they could call it shadow something
leaden prairie
Wanting to delete all the vanish things
Just cause of a random leveling interaction
Is just stupid
You guys are all braindead
white briar
and what give us dance back? 
north schooner
why is tea even on auto-cast that's another discussion
leaden prairie
That's my take
naive mantle
does outdoor content mobs even live long enough for vanish to be required
leaden prairie
No
short radish
Wanting to delete all the vanish things
i dont want them to delete vanish, i just want them to separate the offensive and defensive nature of it
keen dome
Sometimes.
leaden prairie
i dont want them to delete vanish, i just want them to separate the offensive an...
well that kpb guy
keen dome
Like, if it's a boss or something. Again the post was specifically about visions so I think there's a point there and that isn't outdoor content! It's instanced!!!
short radish
like just tie the fucking rotation to shadow dance
white briar
what about the offensive/defensive nature of cloak & evasion and feint?
leaden prairie
Ye and noobs didn't like shadow dance
white briar
cause imo they are all dps cds
leaden prairie
So they deleted shadow dance
Cause shadow dance was sub
And outlaw has used vanihs
In it's rotation
short radish
cause imo they are all dps cds
feint isnt a dps cd. it's not beta anymore
leaden prairie
Since I started the game
In df we had
CTO proccing from stealth
We had ambush from stealth
We had master assassin lego mets
short radish
yeah but then it was casted once every 2 minutes or something right?
leaden prairie
We had the thing where vanihs gave full cp meta
short radish
now its every 20 seconds
leaden prairie
We had dust meta
leaden prairie
yeah but then it was casted once every 2 minutes or something right?
No lol
Wdym 2 min
My guy
naive mantle
im just waiting for shadowlands classic so i can play good sub again
keen dome
They should make Outlaw proc crackshot from feinting. My reasoning is it's a cool mental image that the rogue doe a feint and then shoots a fool. That's why it's a good change.
leaden prairie
Vanish has always been on cdr
We might have casted slightly less cause we have more cdrr now
I think
I'm not even sure
They nerfed tb
Going to df
leaden prairie
cant wait for blizz to rework outlaw again when its finally starting to be complete
sly shore
leaden prairie
spend 4 tiers fixing the issues introduced in new iterations
once its finally all almost fixed
go again
sly shore
they've spent 7 years trying zac
short radish
as is tradition
sly shore
leaden prairie
they've spent 7 years trying zac
I mean trying what
you remove ks
outlaw is kinda decent alreday
sly shore
from change to outlaw to now
leaden prairie
my biggest thing is energy
which btw
mostly impact noobs
Other than that it's ok
I accepted I won't ever be good in prog
It's fine
short radish
poor lil timmy 
leaden prairie
Fuck timmy
sly shore
energy stinks as a resource
keen dome
Replace energy with Style Points which you get from using feint.
leaden prairie
it's either annoying or doesn't matter
i disagree
sly shore
current assa energy stinks poop
leaden prairie
i think energy is good for sub to have fast during cd/slow out of cds
and i think when assa does pooling its fun
sly shore
amirdrassil assa was pretty good actually for energy management