subtlety

[clever delta]

how do they find out the double buff so fast anyway

😄

[haughty mural]

And tfd bug

[clever delta]

we have rat boys

[haughty mural]

[lilac stag]

Yeah the pins. lol

[clever delta]

meanwhile hunters allowed to double dib on their stuff for half of s1

😄

[opal basalt]

isn't the "rogue dev" in this server?

i heard some rumours about devs chilling in the class/tc discords

[clever delta]

im pretty sure they monitor all class discord

but some ppl have direct contact to them aswell

[short radish]

the rogue dev is in this server

do not ping him

[bleak night]

do it

[lone halo]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

the double buff was quite obviouse

you did see the spell data change

and they updated the spec aura

[lilac stag]

the git hub is quite obvious. Just needs to get looked at.

[vale pine]

(spec aura is a baseline aura every spec has, which buffs every spell, they use it to buff specs)

[clever delta]

yeah i know

[vale pine]

and they added a new aura which also buffed all spells by 5% on top

so its very obviouse

to see

[lilac stag]

we just can’t have nice things.

It’s ok

[vale pine]

the target scaling eleem found he thought something in logs seemed off

[lilac stag]

Sub rogue getting hit with all the tariffs.

[vale pine]

and then found it scaled earlier

[clever delta]

nice catch, but dont think blizz will fix it

[lilac stag]

petition to rename subtlety spec to crippling depression.

[clever delta]

but they can me prove wrong 🙂

[lilac stag]

they’ll fix it as soon as we state there’s a benefit to it

[hollow spear]

Some masochists are really having a good time rn

Wouldn't want them to enjoy themselves too much

[short radish]

they should make a talent

where cancelling shadow dance early

reduces the cooldown of shadow dance

SO I DONT USE IT FOR 3 SECONDS AND WASTE 8 SECONDS WHEN IM DOING VISIONS

[lilac stag]

Just make it a toggle

Dance recharges when it’s toggled off.

glhf

[short radish]

its just so fucking dumb

i havent done world stuff in ages

and i forgot how much a pain it is

[lilac stag]

mmhm

[short radish]

meanwhile i swap ass

press whatever the fuck bleed button i want

and walk away from the mobs

and they just die

[hollow spear]

That's why bleed sin slaps in visions. I just don't like sin in raid.

[paper iron]

That s True i did vision as bleed

Just walk and rupture

[paper rock]

Just pull more

[old venture]

Demise is OP af in visions

Pressing deathmark and the boss just insta deletes lmao

[hazy breach]

Sub is fun for the bosses too, not so much the rest of it

[tame agate]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[graceful crown]

We always use thistle tea + dance?

Ugh

Dont we lose energy?

[hazy breach]

Ye but the energy is irrelevant, its only used for the miniscule amount of mastery

(i wouldnt recommend speccing thistle tea anyway, cb is better)

Sub already have energy when in cooldowns, and outside of cooldowns it doesnt do damage so more energy doesnt really matter

[graceful crown]

Understood, thanks

[void ocean]

We still aggressively average?

[oblique grove]

Can I macro tying my shoes to putting my shoes on

[round latch]

we back on full dooming?

[hollow spear]

Some are

[hazy breach]

Its fine for raid

And its fine for some keys, like i did okay damage in workshop

[hollow spear]

Blood has returned to their brain after the 10% buff boner subsided, now they noticed we're still bugged

[hazy breach]

But stuff like meadery or priory its uh, not looking good

[round latch]

did 4mil in a mid key priory

was eatign watermelon as well

coz sin

but im lacking gear

severely

jsut learned another skip in there btw

the right side at start

tanks are rly cooking routes in that place

[warm marlin]

itll be hard to get concrete stats for sub for a while too

one day is cooked

one week is cooked since the god logs still in there

[hollow spear]

The bar will be so cooked

Who do you guys think will win MDI?

[round latch]

dont care

i actually care more about watering my garden and poe 1 new season

[fallow nimbus]

I hope all teams have fun

[latent finch]

After what mdi does to the brain of tanks in weekly keys im not sure if i hope they have fun

[real panther]

is finality better than rotten for TOP since there's only 2 ~3 giga pack?

[remote eagle]

prio +14, good enough?

[vale pine]

nice

[opal basalt]

3.26

[round latch]

cant wait

[hollow spear]

Should have done 40 mill more dmg

Needs a little more unethical gameplay to beat the ret

[magic fog]

may I ask, raidbots says I should only use Deadly Onyx, is that correct? Or should I use more colors for the meta gem?

[remote eagle]

i know, big shame, but i didnt use bp sometimes to kill those paladins faster

[hollow spear]

If you don't check the always max colour (or whatever it's called), it will only use one gem most of the time

[magic fog]

ahhh my bad... 😄 okay ty

[wild hornet]

timed +14 dfc and had a few brain lags with deaths and cds

[hazy breach]

Tbf theres practically no difference between running all 4 gems and just running something like vers+mastery

0.15% crit damage is laughably low

[wild hornet]

does any spec even require 4 colored gems

[short radish]

This is why we run speed instead

Gotta go fast

[lilac stag]

Just don’t run the main stat gem at all.

[remote shuttle]

Movement speed gem is a pretty strong impacting buff

2% speed means one gem is also stamina/vers stamina/mast

[timid reef]

can u send the overall dmg done by spell? 😄

[rocky ocean]

[manic salmon]

based rogue discord

people actually playing the good gam3

[lilac stag]

this channel pretty much tries to avoid wow outside of mythic prog (or heroic pug AOTC prog).

random key pushing as assa conversations.

[vestal escarp]

as if

[valid marsh]

is it just me or is it REALLY hard to get the first dance going in M+?

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[valid marsh]

thats only guarenteeing one every 2 minutes:/ people just chain pull

[hollow spear]

Who said that it was fixed?

[valid marsh]

do you sit and wait to get it in M+ or just continue chaining?

[hazy breach]

Generally continue

And dont think about it too much

[valid marsh]

kk

[hollow spear]

Could swear I read they fixed it in the last patch

Am I tripping?

[hazy breach]

They did not fix it

[valid marsh]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[valid marsh]

@hazy breach do you have a good plater profile for sub?

[junior prawn]

Why is it shadow dance but we dont even dance

[hazy breach]

Idk its not like you need anything specific really, im just using jundies for the colourcoding in dungeons

Unlike assa sub doesnt have infinite debuffs

[valid marsh]

kk thank you

[graceful crown]

So we shouldnt force TFD waiting even if a trash pull has started?

Just benefit for it sometimes

[hazy breach]

Waiting 0.5s, sure

Waiting the entire 6 seconds because the timer decided it didnt want to start for 10 seconds? Nah

[graceful crown]

Alright

[dry plank]

I’m waiting when TFD positive bug would be fixed and few new negative would be introduced

[lucid jackal]

Pre complaining about a bug fix potentially causing another bug is a new level of nonsense

[lilac stag]

can we pre-complain about everything that won’t get addressed in 12.0?

[limpid sage]

I think some people were saying that the macro was fixed

[brittle plinth]

Is there an eli5 for this tfd talk?

[limpid sage]

as in it doesn't work anymore

[hazy breach]

It does work still

[limpid sage]

ye just saw some people claiming the opposite

[hazy breach]

[graceful crown]

Is satisfactory top 1 a m+ vs 2 meta

[vale pine]

12.0 is still a bit off

lets wait and see what happens in the next patch

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-wiggle-wave-preparing-mus-t-be-ready-gif-13113961

[sonic depot]

it would be nice if they got rid of the cdr mechanic somehow for sub imoimo

[lilac stag]

it would be nice if they finished the “rework”.

[fallow nimbus]

to have +5k dps or not that is the question

[vale pine]

I am honest, i still don't know exactly why the timer was added

it add complexity to something which should be easy to understand/handle

[covert apex]

Does sub have the worst aoe in the game?

[vale pine]

it has rly bad aoe outside of cooldowns

[fallow nimbus]

what timer?

[lilac stag]

sub has no aoe. Sub has cleave.

[vale pine]

the first dance

[fallow nimbus]

oh yeah, dunno, maybe a pvp thing

[lilac stag]

or just dumb design things

Alter it pvp

Not that hard

[vale pine]

it makes even less sense because recent talent design

on like every spec you can look at

makes things easy to understand and simple

not more complicated

[lilac stag]

meanwhile outlaw resetting a 1H mace aoe proc every 30 seconds with vanish

[vale pine]

but who am i to judge, i am not a game or systems developer

[fallow nimbus]

it 100% was some quick 5min work before lunch and had to be pushed

[vale pine]

lets see if we get changes in the future

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/things-are-never-gonna-change-around-here-stuart-mccormick-south-park-everything-will-be-the-same-nothing-is-going-to-change-gif-20348432

[fallow nimbus]

we got a 5% buff so i doubt it

[manic salmon]

i mean

[lilac stag]

Sub dev is a classic enjoyer

No changes

[manic salmon]

you are not reworking a spec

in a .5 patch

[lilac stag]

Actually

they have plenty of times

some even get finished

[manic salmon]

the 5% was a bandaid however many weeks into the patch

[manic salmon]

no spec was reworked in this .5 latch

[lilac stag]

this one? No. Past .5 yes

[manic salmon]

yea

[lilac stag]

so your statement is just wrong

[manic salmon]

i havent played the game

in df

so i wouldnt know

if it was

[lilac stag]

[manic salmon]

but during the time i played, it was never an occurence that a spec was reworked from the ground or majorly changed in a .5 patch

unless you count stuff like ele mastery last season "a rework"

[lilac stag]

So you’re using 6 months of history?

[fallow nimbus]

0.5 reworks probably happened because blizz didn't finish for the .0 one

[manic salmon]

i'm not sure what that's supposed to mean

but go off

[lilac stag]

idk why you’d say that they don’t happen when you haven’t experienced anything but the last 6 months of a 20 year old game or done a bit of looking back at patch cycles. They could have, if they wanted, done any number of .5 reworks.

10.1.5 was actually the announced planned sub reworked. Got delayed until 10.2 and never fully finished.

[rocky ocean]

I wish they added the black powder spell to spec which would be completely identical to the current black powder that we already have. This would result in subtlety rogue having 2 black powder spells in their arsenal.

[lilac stag]

rename it purple powder and we have a deal

[hazy breach]

Dark ranger has bleak powder

Does that count

[rocky ocean]

Rgb powder when

[covert apex]

Wish black powder did more damage

[lilac stag]

Roy G Biv Powder

more black powder dmg leads to even darker times

[covert apex]

THe hell are you on about?

[lilac stag]

have you played our friend death stalker?

[covert apex]

I see what you mean

But stalker being shit to play isn't really an excuse, fix stalker

[lilac stag]

good luck

[remote eagle]

bro looks like he saw sub bugs list

[covert apex]

I mean, rogue isn't really one of my most played alts anyway, but i can't say iv'e enjoyed sub in m+ a lot after the rework

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/bongosub-sub-rogue-world-of-warcraft-rogue-aoe-gif-27554873

[hazy breach]

I mean they didnt do anything with the aoe

[lilac stag]

Black powder enjoyer

[covert apex]

Mostly just use outlaw for m+

[hazy breach]

Subs aoe gameplay loop is just confused on what its supposed to be, BP+Shuriken spam? Strike+BP? Strike+evis?

[covert apex]

The issue isn't the gameplay loop, but rather the damage distribution

[hazy breach]

The ST gameplay is good, but it doesnt translate well into the aoe side of things

[shrewd lantern]

People who say they unironically enjoy df s2 sub

lol

where it was bp spam

all day

[covert apex]

Also, with the removal of seal fate from the rogue tree it really feels like sub SUCKS ASS at anything lower than 5

[rocky ocean]

Like god intended

[hazy breach]

Which is just wrong because thats literally where sub is the best

[shrewd lantern]

I could legit take 3 calls

while playing s2 sub in a key

shit was so brain off

spend like 3/4 the dungeon hitting ss bp

[covert apex]

You're talking about fatebound here, right? I was referring to powder under 5

[hazy breach]

Trickster yes

[shrewd lantern]

seal fate only got added in df

[covert apex]

Trickster yea, sorry

[shrewd lantern]

Why do people act like it existed forever

lol….

[rocky ocean]

I would enjoy that, but I also want assa funnel that is x2

[hazy breach]

But deathstalker aoe is just not fun to play

[covert apex]

Yea it sucks ass

[shrewd lantern]

Its funny because sub was comically bad

at 2-3 target

prior to df

[hazy breach]

You know a spec is cooked when cancelaura:ing your main payoff spell (darkest night) is a 1.5% dps gain

[shrewd lantern]

You played an st spec

but built with storm

[lucid jackal]

Trickster Sub is like peak sub rogue

It's burst, it's fun, it's easy to understand

No bullshit

[hazy breach]

For ST/low target cleave ye

[lucid jackal]

No gloom blade no burst shit that ppl complained about for years

[hazy breach]

I definitely agree

[shrewd lantern]

gloomblade spam x50

still do zdps

[vale pine]

Subtlety just needs some qol changes, some talent updates and a bit better tuning

but its fine

[rocky ocean]

[lilac stag]

So like a .5 rework?

[covert apex]

Aside stalker

[lilac stag]

I just worry there’s so much krangled shit with stealth and dmg types in the spaghetti code it’s never gonna see the light of day. forever hopeful

[graceful crown]

We should only do dark damage

:0

[remote eagle]

12.0: every spell deleted except gloomblade and bp

[formal helm]

you're a melee assassin type class

can't really do only shadow dmg

[covert apex]

Damage type doesn't really matter that much aside for roleplay/spec identity

I think phys/shadow is basically perfect for sub

[near dragon]

is sub like about the same as sin for getting into groups for M+? or is one just way better

[covert apex]

Like you're not a shadow priest, you're an assassin, using some magic shit

[remote eagle]

we just need some cool animations for that imo

[vale pine]

why not both

[covert apex]

I find a lot more sin rogue than sub rogues in m+

[remote eagle]

damage type is whatever

[vale pine]

subtleties design was usually around steatlh, burst and shadow damage

[covert apex]

So that's probably an indicator of something

[vale pine]

assassiantions design around dots

and outlaws design... well

[hybrid prism]

combat was cooler than stupid pirate shit

[vale pine]

jokes aside outlaw was typically designed around having good sustained aoe

[covert apex]

Outlaw if you wanna do the same damage every pull

[vale pine]

its just that these deisgn directions did now mix up and now everything does everything to a certain degree

and many of the unique niches which made one spec stood out are often on diffrent specs

but well, wow class and spec development seems a mess in general

and it feels like the DF talent rework was a bit too much to chew

[covert apex]

We have so many specs that there will be an awful lot of overlap, i honestly don';t really care

[vale pine]

i would not be surprised if we see the talent system changed to a simpler version again (in the future)

[formal helm]

I mean I get it

but idk

this one feels...nicer?

[stoic sphinx]

please i beg

this one is horrible

trees are full of meaningless choices and most players dont even interact with the system

and they barely balance/tune anything

[vale pine]

i mean its also a impossible task to maintain

[stoic sphinx]

for sure

[remote eagle]

having tons of talents was cool when simcraft didnt exist, people were actually trying out things

[stoic sphinx]

they set themselves up to fail

[void ocean]

I mean as long as we have cookie cutter builds (and we always have), it doesnt matter if u have more or less talents

[vale pine]

and it creates the power creep problem on more developed specs

some specs play the same talents everywhere and have little choice in talents

others have so many talents, you can create 8 or 10 talent combos which all compete

[covert apex]

I don't really give a damn as long as there is one good build and it feels better to play than ever

[vale pine]

and it just further creates a gap where now a dev need to weight their time

is one talent choice with a lot of death nodes better?

or is it better to be able to play most if not all talents?

[lucid jackal]

This talent system has been amazing

[covert apex]

It seems to me that this idea about "balance" is used to justify the removal of any system that makes the game actually more enjoyable due to "complexity" or some other bs, and i hope they never listen to this feedback

[hybrid prism]

what helm chant are y'all using?

[covert apex]

The talent system was and is fucking awesome, ill just leave it at that

[stoic sphinx]

personally ive found that having a tree with choices and nuance just pisses people off

people dont want choices/options

they want "whats the best"

[remote eagle]

void ritual or twilight dev

[stoic sphinx]

ofc some people like it but not many imo

[lucid jackal]

While subs talent situation is a bit shit there's been like 10 different outlaw and Sin builds

Same goes for shit like warrior, paladin, etc

[vale pine]

i mean thats the point

more time was spend to add more variations there

[hybrid prism]

kk i'm using twilight dev since echoing void is bugged i guess. Are they gonna fix it soon?

[covert apex]

One final thing about balance, i really don't think balance is worse than any other point in time

[vale pine]

but now, does this improve the spec

to have the choice

or should devs, like with subtlety

not care

[lucid jackal]

Balance rn in wow is honestly fine lol

[vale pine]

both are valid options

[remote eagle]

nobody knows

[vale pine]

but one involves a lot more time a dev need to spend to make it work

[void ocean]

They either simplify talents or delete some specs for 3 dps spec classes, cause they obv cant maintain everything at the same time

[fallow nimbus]

balance doesn't have to happen with talents only, blizz just needs to get their arse up and fire off some +5% or -5% stuff here and there

[lucid jackal]

They have been all tier..?

[vale pine]

hero talents also are in a weird state

where they just add more choice on top

but often just have one option

[remote eagle]

assa delete when

[stoic sphinx]

hero talents are big sad on some specs

rogue is probably worst in the game

objectively

[covert apex]

Seems to me that they can maintain things just fine, people basically just overreact, we've literally seen non meta specs such as outlaw or fury in mdi doing fine

[vale pine]

rogue is thematically a fail

[lucid jackal]

This dude hasn't played warrior

[void hound]

unfortunately blizz is scared shitless when it comes to taking stuff away

[covert apex]

Could it be better? I guess

[stoic sphinx]

warriors have one that gives +10 size, clearly op

[lucid jackal]

Yeah that seems reasonable. Just delete specs from the game because they didn't get another rework

[vale pine]

but tuning wise not as bad as on some classes you lose damage for even picking hero talents

[hazy breach]

Trickster is atleast pretty solid gameplay wise, fantasy or vibes is nonexistant though

[stoic sphinx]

its just weird to call them hero talents without being centered around fantasy/vibes first

but ye

[lucid jackal]

Ppl seriously don't remember what real unbalanced metas look like

[void hound]

this but unironically

[covert apex]

Yea

[lucid jackal]

We had seasons with 1 comp

[lilac stag]

GoD mode

[lucid jackal]

We had raids where specs were 2x stranger than other specs

[vale pine]

the game is 20 years old

i don't think classic is a good benchmark

[lucid jackal]

Reminder that sub was in a worse state with old talent systems back during bfa

[vale pine]

because they nerfed it to death

[covert apex]

If anything they actually closed the gap between m+ specs, now pretty much all specs can perform to a pretty good level, there used to be specs that were literally TRASH in aoe, unusable.

[lucid jackal]

I don't think removing hero talents and reverting to old talent trees would fix these issues Ur having

[fallow nimbus]

everything was 2x stronger than sub most of the time

[void hound]

DF talents are awesome

[fallow nimbus]

the pvp spec

[void hound]

hero talents could also be awesome

just need more time in the oven

[vale pine]

<surprise pikachu face>
If you nerf a spec to death, it will be bad

but ofc. lets say its talents

not tuning

[hybrid prism]

tbh all they need to do is make it so if you use a max combo point finisher as DS on a target that isn't marked it puts your mark on that target with 3 stacks. That way you can target swap with your mark but you wont get the bonus for consuming it on one target

[hazy breach]

The mark is not an issue for sub

[vale pine]

subtlety has shadow dance, so we have a lot of options to apply the mark

[lucid jackal]

Surprise, it wasn't the fault of current talent trees or hero talents for a spec to get neglected

[vale pine]

i mean

wasn't the topic talent diversity

thats absolutely the fault of talents^^

[hybrid prism]

lmao

big if true

[vale pine]

or spec getting neglected

[lucid jackal]

Some specs have more or less talent diversity I don't think inherently having more. Or less talent diversity is a good or bad thing

[vale pine]

like i give you one example and give me a sec

[lucid jackal]

I don't think sin having 6 builds is inherently better than outlaw having like 3 and sub having 1

[vale pine]

you then have time to explain how it is not a good point

so basically, in the last patch rogue got attention

there is a talent called subterfuge

[covert apex]

Honestly, i think talent diversity really doesn't matter nearly as much as some people think, as long as there is one REALLY good talent setup that's fun to play with, that's already a success in my book.

Specs like enahnce are the exception

[vale pine]

which got reworked for assassiantion to fit into their design

[lucid jackal]

I agree with this sentiment

[vale pine]

but not for subtlety

[hybrid prism]

it would be way less of an issue if they didn't nerf us for being "strong" this tier without tier sets. Then they proceeded to wait MONTHS to do anything. It would have felt a lot better if we didn't get that initial nerf this tier

[vale pine]

so now, the price question is

[lucid jackal]

Sub would have been broken on prog without a Nerf

[covert apex]

You could almost say that enhance shaman is 2 specs in one

[lucid jackal]

It should have also gotten buffed sooner.

[vale pine]

how is tuning the problem and not the talent system or a lack of dev time to apply similar benefits to subtlety ?
Explain why subterfuge being useless is not a talent system issue?
Your turn.

[covert apex]

ANd they somehow managed to make them both competitive

[hazy breach]

Idk 2% wasnt that big of a change

Unless people are talking about making the tier set be worth 15% instead of 40%

[hybrid prism]

oh it's definitely the talents, I was just saying they would have felt less bad if they didn't nerf us into the ground and leave us there to rot

[hazy breach]

Which happened during ptr

[vale pine]

the secret nerf was not needed

[hazy breach]

The 2% nerf after the patch was released was not necessary

[vale pine]

the tier nerf made sense because they wanted to balance out tier set value

[hazy breach]

The making the tier 1/3 as powerful was definitely necessary

[lucid jackal]

Sub didn't get nerfed into the ground

[vale pine]

in Bfa, it did

[lucid jackal]

Sub got a slight Nerf, was still good, then sin got buffed and then sub got ignored

[vale pine]

ill summerize it for you roughly

subtlety was the best single target, due to a trait buffing shadow strike damage

this trait was nerfed to the point subtlety was only played for one encounter

[lilac stag]

Rogue was just generally mid dps wise in raid at the start. Assa got some love. Sub got a nerf.

[vale pine]

even after that, it was nerfed again.
And the encounter had funnel, this one was removed too.

[lilac stag]

yay numbers

[vale pine]

thats basically how you make something bad

[hybrid prism]

yeah I don't mind being middle of the pack, but when we are middle of the pack and they nerf us, it feels like getting nerfed into the ground

[vale pine]

you nerf it to be not played

then nerf it again

and on top remove one of the niches it hat

[lucid jackal]

Sub wasn't nerfed when it was mid

[vale pine]

it was in bfa

[lilac stag]

and when the numbers are bad, you inevitably start deep diving

[vale pine]

seaosn 1

[lilac stag]

picking apart issues

[vale pine]

if we talk about TWW

[lucid jackal]

Weird because bfa had an easier to design and balance talent system and it still got neglected

[vale pine]

subtlety got nerfed for a very specific reason

well

i mean if you target a spec with multiple nerfs

you rly enforce a certain balance

especially if its statistically already not that outstanding

[hybrid prism]

^

[vale pine]

i don't know how you can call bfa not a big misstep on blizz side

and try to sugar coat it

[lucid jackal]

What

Who r u arguing with

[hybrid prism]

I don't think there is an arguement, I think he is just stating what happened

[vale pine]

you, but i am unsure which period of time you refer to

[hybrid prism]

o

nvm

[vale pine]

do we talk about bfa

or tww?

or classic?

for TWW, the reason subtlety was nerfed was the initial buff when they heavily nerfed the tier set

[hybrid prism]

imo we should just be better than everyone by 5% all the time no matter what. We are the coolest class and the coolest spec when it comes to fantasy, we should do more damage than the dweebs

[vale pine]

so as stupid as it sounds, the pre raid statistics did impact the tuning of the tier

[lilac stag]

Sub this tier. Mid in RWF since you know everyone has every piece of gear. Early HoF guilds it was above mid, and dropped off as soon as others caught up the early boost of transmitter.

as soon as everyone got gear and tuned. It fell off a cliff.

[remote eagle]

but then you cant flex with doing more dps than the meta rerollers

[vale pine]

i mean its like this

[lilac stag]

not like any rogue spec is good at ST and assa just was able to use funnel and execute to its advantage. Now kills times and adds disappearing 📉

[vale pine]

you will always have under and overperformers

subtlety is clearly in the under performer range this tier

even if we can argue days that it was played during wfr or early progress

[hybrid prism]

100% true lol

[warm compass]

Tbh tho they probably wanted devastation to have a moment in the sun due to aug

[void hound]

evoker is the hero class currently so yeah

literally the main character

[lucid jackal]

Blizzard balance philosophy has always been taking turns

[hybrid prism]

evoker being good is not at all relevant to us begging for scraps...

[void hound]

i dont even mind taking turns, but didnt warlocks get like 80% of the turns or something

saw some stats a while ago across expansions

[hybrid prism]

them being good does not mean we have to be bad

[remote eagle]

its just sad doing 300% effort and 50% dps

[lilac stag]

Well when they delete the adds it kinda does

[void hound]

its less about power rather than evoker getting changes every single patch while sub has to deal with bugs that are in the game for ages (replicating shadows)

[lilac stag]

unless they’re bumping up rogue ST

[chrome palm]

sub is not 300% effort when you can take your hands of the keyboard between bursts lmao

[lilac stag]

have you played dev?

[remote eagle]

yea have you played destro or ret?

[lilac stag]

subs “downtime” is their normal full rotation

[chrome palm]

since when does apm/effort necessitate raid performance

[lilac stag]

It doesn’t need to but don’t act like there’s not a difference in what needs attention between the two

[hybrid prism]

I think sub is pretty easy since I've played it for a while but its definitely harder than most specs. That isn't a problem, but if you mess up with sub you are literal dog water, when if you mess up as something like ret, you're just a little less good

[chrome palm]

dev stealing my raid pi has me pressed

[lucid jackal]

3 dps specs are bound to be "winners" more often

And this doesn't even get into the fact that wcl stats page doesn't tell u what spec is best

It doesn't tell u what's best on prog

It barely tells u anything actually useful

Warlock has also only been "fine" for the last handful of tiers now

[void hound]

right, which begs the question what "taking turns" means or should mean

and how well it has been executed upon

[lucid jackal]

Yeah don't look into how good rogue has been over the years

Might get offended

[small juniper]

whens the last time rogue was actually top dps

[lucid jackal]

Amidrasil

Was a 2/3 of in most guilds

[small juniper]

true forgot about that

assa aug was good

played sub all of that tier gg

[lucid jackal]

Vault was a very good 2 of rogue tier as well

[void hound]

amidrassil my beloved

[lucid jackal]

Not insane but it was solid

But yeah I mean its random what specs are op each tier

They slowly tune things over time

Arcane was broken in vault, udk was broken in aberus, sub was broken in amirdrasil, fdk/fury was broken in nerubar, ww/fire was broken in undermine

[clever delta]

kush leaving echo so he can actually play rogue on progg:)

[hybrid prism]

Loved everything about that raid. It was perfect

[warm compass]

What would you say is the biggest problem for sub rn besides tubing

Tuning

[clever delta]

amidrasil was about best raid out of both DF and TWW

[hybrid prism]

u wot m8

[lucid jackal]

A lot of shit talents, deathstalker has stinky interactions with the spec in aoe

Only issues Imo

[clever delta]

how do you even tune sub tho

super strong week 1

super week 5

[lucid jackal]

With aura buffs and nerfs

[clever delta]

how you tune it

[lucid jackal]

Same as any spec in human history

[lilac stag]

Not enough power for dance as the CD (too reliant on blades & flag). CDR on dance needs slight tweaks. It’s a little too tight. FW is pointless. Sectech pets wonkyness. Finishing the 10.2 rework.

[clever delta]

thats some scaling issue

[hybrid prism]

all you have to do is do increment buffs regularly until it is middle of the pack, do that for every class

[lucid jackal]

Modern scaling doesn't exist in wow

[clever delta]

why other classes scale when some dont

[lucid jackal]

Which class scales well

[clever delta]

idk

[lucid jackal]

Ok

[clever delta]

but every scale better than sub

[lucid jackal]

Based on..?

[clever delta]

data

[lucid jackal]

What data

[clever delta]

why was falling sub with every week in raid than

what more data you need

[hybrid prism]

[lucid jackal]

Because less and less good players were playing it

[clever delta]

smile

[lucid jackal]

?

Weird, every spec in the game was getting buffed every week and sub wasn't

[lilac stag]

once you had tier, dagger and transmitter/HoC your dps increases from ilvl were laughable.

[lucid jackal]

Yeah this must be a scaling issue

[hybrid prism]

all they need to do is incremental buffs every week on reset for every class to make them even, but they refuse to

[clever delta]

delulu guy again

we got all power week one

[lucid jackal]

THEY HAVE DONE BUFFS ALMOST EVERY OPPORTUNITY

WHAT DO U MEAN THEY REFUSE TO

[hybrid prism]

"every week on reset for every class to make them even" like literally just read what I said

[lucid jackal]

Yeah crazy how once they buffed sub by 5% it's back to being even with sin

[vale pine]

tuning was a shitshow

always

[lucid jackal]

Crazy scaling they added with that 5% buff

[clever delta]

is it back with sin?

[vale pine]

and talent trees made tuning even harder

[clever delta]

based on what? logs with 10% buff?

[hybrid prism]

if they would tune REGULARLY instead of doing it once every 3 months, it would be a lot closer

[lucid jackal]

THEY DON'T BALANCE EVERY 3 MONTHS

[lucid jackal]

Based on playing the video game and using your eyeballs

[clever delta]

smile

cant wait to check out next week numbers

[vale pine]

they actually balance once every bigger patch

then let it sit

[hybrid prism]

the last time they did anything to sub was when the raid dropped, so like 3 months ago.

[vale pine]

also balance does not take turns

at least not if you look at some data collection

neverless, lets just say we have diffrent opinions

[hybrid prism]

they need to consistently balance all the time to keep things even, idk why that's controversial

[vale pine]

balance is relative

[hybrid prism]

every class, every week if they are below the average

[lucid jackal]

They have done balance constantly every 2 weeks, they just didn't buff sub

[hybrid prism]

small incremental buffs as needed to bring them up

[lucid jackal]

They don't do balance patches "every 3 months"

[hybrid prism]

yeah thats the fucking point

i said every class

[clever delta]

they buffed assa that was good enough for them

[lucid jackal]

https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-try-not-to-laugh-gif-7682731162751353849

[hybrid prism]

which would include waiting 3 months to do anything to sub

reading is hard

[lucid jackal]

Having a fucking brain is hard

[clever delta]

90% rogue player base prefer playing assa anway

everyone happy

[hybrid prism]

you give me a headache, but ok

[lucid jackal]

You give me brain cancer

[hybrid prism]

I now see based on being in here today that you just like to argue to argue so have a good one

[clever delta]

and you are brain cancer so what diff

[lucid jackal]

I don't like people making shit up

[hybrid prism]

I said what I said, didn't make anything up, you chose to ignore half of my sentences and create your own narrative as to what I was saying. So go off, I couldn't care less

[vale pine]

most of peoples spec preference came from tuning

and i can show it statistically and in sims

but i don't think thats the point of the discussion

balance is a difficult topic

and the reality is, blizz approach to it is to "wing it"

and it comes with certain personal biases

[alpine wraith]

they went du dududu max verstapen

[vale pine]

but balance is also incredibly hard to understand

[hybrid prism]

yup. Which was my point. Which is why I said they should do it every week for EVERY CLASS. So it's not as drastic. Keep everything as even as possible, but he freaked out on me because he chose not to read half of the stuff I typed

[vale pine]

because we have not one but many content types

look at delves

[lucid jackal]

Professional victim still typing

[vale pine]

or mythic+

[hybrid prism]

yeah thats true

[lucid jackal]

I thought u wanted to move on?

[alpine wraith]

they gave up a bit with delves tbh

healer brann is super op

he heals for like 4m a sec

how do you even die

[vale pine]

what blizz does better is to usually buff the lower performing ones

[alpine wraith]

if your grain is not offline

[vale pine]

so the statistic looks better

[alpine wraith]

they did destroy tank brann tho

[vale pine]

but warcraftlogs often falsifies the statistic

by removing higher impact factors like add damage

blacklisting fights

etc.

[hybrid prism]

Yeah that's true there is a lot of different types of content to tune for, which I think tuning everything regularly is the way to go

little bits here and there

until things are even.

[left ledge]

Arguing on a spec that still only has one functional talent build

[lucid jackal]

Which is what they do btw, biweekly

[hybrid prism]

or as close to even as possible

[left ledge]

What they need to do is finish the spec

[vale pine]

the problem is even worse

because now you have so many talent combos

on some specs at least

[hybrid prism]

No they don't. Because there are classes that don't get touched for months, ie sub.

[vale pine]

you need to balance them against each other and other specs

it is what started this conversation

[lucid jackal]

Do you think a spec getting ignored means they don't to bi weekly balance updates?

[vale pine]

the talent system added a lot of overhead

[lucid jackal]

Genuine question does Ur brain work this way

[hybrid prism]

I never said that lmao

[lucid jackal]

It's what Ur saying here

[hybrid prism]

Jesus you are nauseating

[vale pine]

which is a net negative because it takes away attention for making things fun

[left ledge]

This might be unpopular opinion but I think Blizz tried something ambitious and failed with the talents

Some specs are good

Others just suffer from bloated and mostly useless talents

[hybrid prism]

I would say the same thing if they did tuning every day, because it matters for fuck all when you leave classes to rot and dont touch them for 3 months

[clever delta]

i would love to see how blizzard do something like pre season balance withnout actuall statistic from wclogs 😄

[lilac stag]

Best I can do is buff gloomblade by 15%

[clever delta]

that must be cool to watch

[warm compass]

I think the term rework needs a changing, everyone wants a rework. By the time they get theirs, it’s probably outdated due to the new raid and or dungeons

[left ledge]

The gloomblade days

[warm compass]

And back to wanting one

[void hound]

goonblade

[left ledge]

Our rework was actually on a good path

It literally just isn’t finished

[vale pine]

exactly, and this is what spiked this conversation

[hybrid prism]

WTB gloomblade and DS to be the best build, just because its cooler class fantasy wise

[vale pine]

we somehow fight about balance again tho

[left ledge]

Fuck balance

[shy ermine]

Hero talents made things a lot worse too imo

[left ledge]

Numbers can change any day

[vale pine]

and disagree that talents ended up as a big burden and time sink

[warm compass]

How unholy dk feels, good numbers, just clunky and super outdated

[lucid jackal]

Talent system is great

[vale pine]

it might be great

for some

[left ledge]

The system itself is great yeah but some specs just

[lucid jackal]

Opens up a lot of builds for classes, leaves room for utility choices at a personal level

[left ledge]

Don’t get love

[vale pine]

for others its not

[left ledge]

For assa they have a lot of variety

For sub it’s uh

[vale pine]

because like

[left ledge]

First dance or weaponmaster

LMAO

[vale pine]

it got dev time

the devs just haven't invested similar amounts to update subtleties tree and remove some of the weaknesses

[lucid jackal]

How is a few classes getting the shit end of the stick make the entire system a "failure"

[vale pine]

comes back to the point

its a lot of effort

its a good argument

because we are 3+ years in the system

and it has this big diffrences

[lucid jackal]

Well my point is that specs were neglected before as well with a significantly easier to design talent tree

[vale pine]

i mean if its a failure or not will be personal opinion

[lucid jackal]

So it has nothing to do with "added workload of talent trees"

[vale pine]

i think you hyperbole just to be right

the dev team has limited ressources

[lucid jackal]

Nothing I just said is hyperbole

[vale pine]

so if you make a system too time intensive for the same dev team

[left ledge]

A system fails if it doesn’t accomplish what it set out to do

[hybrid prism]

https://tenor.com/view/whoosh-over-my-head-your-gif-13095472

[vale pine]

you can't expect it to have a better outcome

[lucid jackal]

For a majority of specs and classes it does do this

[left ledge]

Not any more than mop systems did

Ironically

[hybrid prism]

gloomblade should be baseline, dark brew should be in the gloomblade talent spot, they should create another capstone talent, BOOM AWESOME

[left ledge]

The crux of the new talent system was to ensure there’s always room to play for every spec, some specs have this executed pretty well, but some specs just play one build with one or two changing talents creating the same exact gameplay everywhere you go

That’s the opposite of what they tried to achieve

In that sense it’s a failure

I would like to see them fix it

But knowing blizz they will prob just abandon and do some other dumb shit

[clever delta]

atleast we still have goremaw was worried talent may go, they buffed it twice already

[vale pine]

i mean thats the point, its not blizz fault

[clever delta]

im sure its only 2more buffs from being playable

[vale pine]

if you have limited dev time

and need to do more work

[left ledge]

Yeah like I said

It was ambitious

That’s why I used that word

[hybrid prism]

Low key have no idea why this is even there.

[left ledge]

They had a much easier time prior to this system

[clever delta]

we actually played goremaw on ptr

for somre time

[timid reef]

!log

[hybrid prism]

how'd that feel? I don't play ptr. Sounds not great. We only really do damage in our cd windows and during those windows you never have energy issues. So like, what's the point?

[clever delta]

it was kinda empty talent option back than

[slate hinge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[clever delta]

nothing great to pick

[vale pine]

we tested it because it was new

ptr had the luck of not having real numbers

so you could go by feel

[clever delta]

i remember kush running in keys

[hybrid prism]

this seems more accurate

[vale pine]

once we had numbers

things changed

[left ledge]

To be honest goremaw was never going to be a picked talent

I don’t know why it was put in

[vale pine]

i spend a lot of time trying to make Goremaws work in the apl

and it was even with optimizations not good

[left ledge]

As a capstone its WAY too weak

[vale pine]

it is just by design not compatible with modern sub

[clever delta]

as capstone its real joke

[vale pine]

because it solves energy

but energy is solved with shadowcraft

so why would you go with both

[hybrid prism]

in my vault this week I got a myth tier helm with speed and a socket, so I've got that going for me, which is nice

[left ledge]

Goremaw should just buff finisher dam or actually interact with our cds

[vale pine]

just remove it

replace it with something relevant

like sylvanas effect

[left ledge]

Yeah that’s the best option

[vale pine]

would give some funnel and prio damage

[left ledge]

You’re coping now

We will never get eon

[vale pine]

rework pv and other useless/weak talents

the sky is the limit ^^

[hybrid prism]

they need to replace that, make gloomblade baseline, and then move dark brew where gloomblade is and make something new for the dark brew slot too. I'll die on this hill

[left ledge]

Well blizz is very much for limits lower than the sky

They have a list for specs and subs list includes “no funnel”

It’s like a fucking boogeyman

You say sub funnel and the Blizz offices shut down

[vale pine]

the devs that worked on rogue back in bfa

don't work on it anymore

(i assume)

so i don't know

[left ledge]

Aight

Replace goremaw with shuriken combo

[vale pine]

i think shuriken combo would be even weak

in the current design space

[left ledge]

Would it really if it buffed sectec and evis

[hazy breach]

Idk is it that much of a deal if your filler that does no damage does shadow damage instead

[hybrid prism]

yes

😄

[left ledge]

I mean tbf gloom should’ve replaced backstab in like legion

Idk why we still have backstab

[hybrid prism]

Seriously

[left ledge]

It’s just thematically off

[hybrid prism]

It's dumb and gloomblade is way cooler.

exactly!

you get me

[left ledge]

We had a few seasons of gloom though

And it was fucking terrible

One button spam

[vale pine]

backstab is iconic, is probably the reason we keep it

[clever delta]

i did not mind 🙂

im ready for next gb season

[left ledge]

Think I’m on lingering cd for another season or two

I like my burst

[jade urchin]

is remnant of darkness simming correctly? its beating most trinkets on my sims

i know second trinket is kinda fucked but it feels weird to have it sim good

[hybrid prism]

that trinket has always simmed booty for me

like terribly so idk

[jade urchin]

its only beaten by myth mugzee or myth kezan on ST

for me

[lilac stag]

Bring back the legion version with WM interaction

[fallow nimbus]

If the fw mechanic stays then gloom should be baseline so we really don't have to worry about stupid fw

Also every cp builder and hero tree talent needs to work with storm too.

[warm marlin]

hmmm yes gloomblade surely applies FW from the front

tooltip wouldn't lie like that

[lilac stag]

If gloom actually did anything.

[lucid jackal]

Isn't it used on deathstalker?

Was last season anuwah

[warm marlin]

it is a bit goofy that the parry bug with fazed means all my other melee get to be happy and not care about being behind boss

but me, the parry buff provider, must remain behind for FW

https://tenor.com/view/disappointed-so-gif-18681605

[lucid jackal]

https://tenor.com/view/ironic-star-wars-chode-gif-5274592

[void hound]

you guys do that?????????

[warm marlin]

ye i try when possible

[brittle plinth]

Like all greats, eventually it's time to retire. They keeping em around for the jersey sales but it's time to go.

[vale pine]

the wow playerbase is still mostly old players who still play

[warm compass]

Fuu calling themselves old

[alpine wraith]

ye we are old

[void ocean]

Ancient

[fallow nimbus]

I played one week of assa and the dh got parried 3 times in the opener on the first boss, can't make that any better

[opal basalt]

Is there a place for a rogue player to otp one spec or should you strive to play all 3 well? I guess it’s the second (which would explain why this discord gives you all three spec channels always)

[alpine wraith]

yea well depends at what lvl you play

90% of places it does not usually matter

but if you can play the 3 or at least 2 it usually is a pro

[opal basalt]

I’m in a late CE guild and we’re currently on bandit

Right now I play healer there but I’ll 100% swap to dps next tier

Either DH or Rogue ig

[fiery pewter]

I like keeping Backstab, I just wish it didn't hit like a pool noodle

[lucid jackal]

But thats kind of the point

[brittle plinth]

the feeling when ppl 10+ years younger than me call themselves old in this discord 😛

[lucid jackal]

Sub used to have less CD damage, and more out of CD damage, and many people complained a lot

[brittle plinth]

cause of pvp?

[lucid jackal]

No just antithetical to what the spec is abt

master = finisher damage

why are generators high damage

[void hound]

i OTPd sub this season and it was more than enough for HoF

so it doesnt matter as much as you think, but is obviously highly depednant on the level of play

[opal basalt]

I am interested in Outlaw too tbf, just thought I’d focus on gearing for sub first because it’s always been a spec that sounded cool

[brittle plinth]

Outlaw is a ton of fun to play

You cant really go wrong with it or sub

[lucid jackal]

U should be able to play other specs because u had fights like mugzee on prog where sin was not joking, like one of the best melee dps in the game on that fight

[opal basalt]

Guess I’ll craft a mh next week if I don’t get one out of vault and then try it out

[brittle plinth]

Especially as a triple dps class, I feel like there is some expectation to be able to flex into either

[lucid jackal]

Like I mean ig if u really DONT wanna play the other specs, nobody is forcing u to

But u being able to say "Wow sin is broken on this fight, I should swap sin" is generally a good skil as a raider

[opal basalt]

I’ve never had that choice before that’s mostly why I’m asking

As a healer I was always pretty locked onto the spec I chose for the tier lol

[lucid jackal]

There are a handful of players who just 1trick a spec in high end guilds but

It does make u in a very broad sense, a worse and less flexible raider

U can make it work, and u can still be very good at being a 1trick

But it's exclusively a downside as a player

[opal basalt]

But yeah triple dps class gives you that flexibility and why not use it

[lucid jackal]

It also leaves u in spots where let say ur a sub 1 trick, and sub sucks

Ur just playing a weaker spec, for fun

[empty cargo]

Being married with kids & a full time job, that’s something I can live with 😂

[lucid jackal]

Yeah ofc

Just depends where ur priorities are

[raw flicker]

what is the exclamation (!) that show us the 8 gcds sequence inside dance?

I saw that before here in channel

[glacial hinge]

Forever, ive been sub one trick since SL to cover all angles as fight diversity goes ( for raid) assa or law? I inclined to sin cuz execute and cleave, but to a certain extent sub has cleave aswell and amp phases bursts

[lilac stag]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals of during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[warm compass]

Outside view here, is the part where shadow blades for combo points, does that seem a bit counter preductive

From looking at shadow dance and gloomblade

[hazy breach]

Im not sure what youre asking

We generally dont even talent into gloomblade because its not great

[lucid jackal]

Isnt it good with deathstalker

[hazy breach]

Its like 0.2% better if you literally never ever have to use shuriken at any point during the fight as deahtstalker yes

Its locked behind shadow focus, which is a cosmetic talent

So you have to not spec improved storm, which is absolutely horrid if theres any adds ever

[alpine wraith]

it has the honor of being nerfed 5 times

few talents can say that

not like it would be good anyway

used to be decent in legion because of 100 energy

[hazy breach]

Shadow Focus 🤝 Perforated Veins
Most useless talents

[alpine wraith]

lingering shadows in the bronze seat

imagine if it worked the other way around amping builders or whatever in dance

and it built stacks outside dance

crazy

[hazy breach]

Lingering shadows is fine about the same powerlevel as stuff like wm, replicating (on st) and imp sht

Its fine

Its just in the lower section where theres actual good talents to pick

[alpine wraith]

i feel unreasonably angry when i see wm

[hazy breach]

Perforated and SF are like, barely gains in simcraft

[alpine wraith]

perforated was silly with ER

reverb

but nothing more

and super annoying

[midnight ledge]

Hey guys, new to sub, I feel like I have my burst windows down. But during downtime my damage feels comparable to healer damage, the guides say to spread rupture and whatnot but I feel like my downtime windows are so horrendously bad. especially if I go into a pull with nothing up. I've read the guides a bunch but man those inbetweens feel so bad and kill my overall damage.

[hazy breach]

Yes you'll do no damage outside of dance

Thats why rupture is nice because even though its not doing damage now, atleast it will tick when you dance later and actually do damage

[midnight ledge]

ah. okay. Well at least I feel a bit better about the inbetweens. Thanks for the reply 🙂

[lucid jackal]

Yeah thats just how the spec works

Damage curve of the spec over a fight

[midnight ledge]

Ah that makes a lot of snese thank you

[lucid jackal]

Literally before CDs btw

Meanwhile assa for example

And then outlaw

[remote eagle]

yep, no damage outside of dance, spread rupture and maximise utility usage

[midnight ledge]

Okay awesome, I felt like I was doing something seriously wrong in that 20-30 seconds before cds were up again.

[hazy breach]

And out of those 500k dps usually like 200k or so is stuff like enchants, gushing or elemental focusing lens

[midnight ledge]

Sorry one other question. "The First Dance" feels so good when it's actually being utilized, but it takes forever to pop and I either just stand awkwardly off to the side for a bit or go without it. Any advice?

[hazy breach]

Dont worry about it, if its like 0.5s you can stand outside and wait

Otherwise just dont bother, go in

[lucid jackal]

Other talents are very low impact

even 2-3 uses makes it worth it

[midnight ledge]

Alright awesome, thank you all you've been super helpful

[lucid jackal]

Meanwhile every single burst window is this

With or without lust

[midnight ledge]

yeah that's the fun part for sure haha

[hazy breach]

Its great how theres only 3 backstabs and like 12 spells on the other side in the same timeframe

Bursts in keys on bosses where you can start the pull with 4 coup stacks and maxxed tier set is some good fucking shit

Like this very reasonable damage 25 seconds into the candle king fight

[remote eagle]

is there a wa to track those? i'm bad at diy

[alpine wraith]

most wa packs track both of those

well maybe not tier but escalating blade yes

[warm marlin]

forget a boss going into a pack like outside 2nd boss priory with coup full tier and 10sht

[strange chasm]

Yeah it's kinda nice to pool before a boss if you know it's coming up after the pack dies

You can do some crazy stuff

[neon frigate]

Hey guys when do you use vanish with sub if you are comboing?

[lilac stag]

Usually after CDs to get CDR back.

[neon frigate]

CDR?

[short radish]

cool down reduction

[tribal blade]

just did the zone out tech after 2nd boss of rook to swap to sub

was actually super fast

[strange shore]

Are most m+ running void ritual?

[alpine wraith]

td also works but i find it sus to pull things

so i se void ritual

[graceful crown]

Is not worth testing a mastery==crit build right? Without vers and haste

Or mastery>crit=vers>haste

[chrome palm]

not when you can just sim it

crit is nice but it isnt more valuable than vers

esp if you are playing with the rotten / seaforium pacemaker

[rocky ocean]

robot will fail us some day, and that will cost everyone very dearly

[wide sonnet]

Why is my dmg so low

I really want to get off trololspree

I press the cd's in order and dmg is still low

[limpid sage]

Anyone know if another Trickster's Fazed debuff can be used to trigger the Flawless Form stacks?

[tribal blade]

WHAT IS YOUR NAME

WHAT IS THIS

[haughty mural]

https://tenor.com/view/spider-man-we-one-gif-18212100

[vestal escarp]

Imitation is a form of flattery

[tribal blade]

i think it's the universe telling me i am

indeed

a FOOL

[round latch]

always in our hearts

[tribal blade]

at least a fool is entertaining

[lilac stag]

But are you running void ritual in m+?

[tribal blade]

100% yes haha

[lilac stag]

L bozo

[round latch]

to my understanding there is probably 0 fools in the Sub channel

[tribal blade]

i likey 🙂

[round latch]

it takes a certain amount of intelligence to play this spec

[tribal blade]

yes a harvard degree

[round latch]

dunno about the pirate channel though

[tribal blade]

every spec i play is more difficult than the others

[lilac stag]

I have some bad news about that.

[tribal blade]

SHEEESH

[steel wasp]

Hi is sub playable in pve with the buffs or go other spec?

[lilac stag]

What answer do you want to hear?

[worn ivy]

Yes its very playable.

[worn ivy]

Check pins and guides for more info. Dont hasitate to ask here if you struggle at something

[steel wasp]

Want to reroll rog but cant decide what spec should i play, i like all of them. Outlaw seems a bit overcomplicated to me and i just recently saw sub buffs. Im interested in your opinion about it

[steel wasp]

Sounds great

[steel wasp]

Thank you

[worn ivy]

Yw

[lilac stag]

Tuning is up and down. This season over for most. It’s fine in raid, nothing amazing (but rogue isn’t). It’s behind outlaw and assa in keys.

[steel wasp]

Thank you

[lilac stag]

If you enjoy it play it. If you’re looking fotm we ain’t him.

[graceful crown]

Timing your cds and burst their asses

I was an outlaw all this season and im gonna try sub now

Completely different playstyle

[hollow spear]

I think the current monkey's paw is that we'll do better next season, but have to play ds

Is there a spot with dummies that isn't as laggy as dornogal?

[thorn bough]

Class halll for rogue

but you do way more dmg cause they lower lvl

[lilac stag]

Clear out details and don’t have the real time monitor window / ability open.

[hollow spear]

It lags even without any addons besides wa activated

Think it's just dornogal

[lilac stag]

zero lag for me there. Only time it gets silly is assa and caustic but that’s typically details trying to process everything live with the plugin

Possible it’s your WA or nameplates if you’re using anything

[merry agate]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[magic fog]

is "Dungeon Slice" appropriate setting to SIM for Sub M+?

[tribal blade]

yes it works

[magic fog]

Okay, thank you 🙂 and any idea what I did wrong here? 😮

I mean, that is ultra low DPS 😄

[graceful crown]

Thats work overall dung? Finished i mean?

Shouldnt black powder deal more dmg? I dont know in work

[lilac stag]

The shuriken toss

[magic fog]

yep, work 14 overall :x

[hollow spear]

That is indeed very low

[lilac stag]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[lilac stag]

Pick one, two or three and read them.

ain’t no way you’re managing any of the CDs correctly

[magic fog]

I just did what Hekili said, braindead, tbh

[hollow spear]

We cannot tell you what went wrong just based on a details screenshot

[magic fog]

sure, I mean, I'll read the guides - and maybe (?) stop using Hekili ? 😄

[hollow spear]

Definitely stop using Hekili

[magic fog]

I just did what it suggested me to do, so I guess it does no good job

[lilac stag]

Hekili is adjusting to your mistakes.

the more mistakes you make the worse you cook it

or just play assa in keys

[hollow spear]

You're probably completely bombing all of your flag windows

[magic fog]

but there is no real "standard rotation" anymore, right?
I use NaowhUI and his weakauras, they are good to watch for CDs etc.?

[lilac stag]

there’s a priority system, with some standards

I ain’t paying for a UI

So no idea

read the guides and come back. Sub isn’t a jump right in and hope an addon plays it for me spec.