if you understand the opener, the next thing you need to work on is damage outside of CD's. So like spreading rupture, maintaining flawless form, BPing if 7+ targets etc
#subtlety
dusk stone
but also making sure to spend sectec with symbols of deaths, regardless of whether or not shadow dance is with it
when there is <9 seconds or less on cd of sectec
the cd's you have outside of CD's are mostly for doing a little bit of damage and farming cooldown recovery while waiting for flag/blades to come back up
brittle plinth
He's just starting, and the guide covers all that. Lol
dusk stone
its worth noting that rupture is dynamic, meaning dots already present get boosted by amps
brittle plinth
Give him the digestible pieces first
dusk stone
i read the guide a million times myself, didnt get this info out of it tbh
brittle plinth
Shindig has an awesome long form video on sub rotation, if you prefer listening. Welcome to the club bud.
dusk stone
writing down the rules for subtlety rotation that are important is probably the easiest way to learn it
dusk stone
you have the cd rotation, out of cd rotations and then the rules for things
brittle plinth
I do the same
wild barn
I was always in the club and do not have that much time to play 2 characters ^^ but the bet is going and need to win, cause all I do is win.
Even if I had time on WoW, I will always play druid + rogue ever. I love them
brittle plinth
Welcome regardless ❤️
dusk stone
yeah
if video is more digestable this one is good
but i just suggest writing out the CD rotation, out of CD rotation and the rules. It condenses a lot of information and you have to those pieces correct first
when i was learning i had to read the guide like 10 or more times because i kept finding stuff because of information overload
hazy breach
!mistakes
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals of during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
wild barn
when i was learning i had to read the guide like 10 or more times because i kept...
Thats happening to me atm
wild barn
Are gifs allowed here xD?
wild barn
thats why i say write down the core rotation and rules and work on that first
Aye! I will!
hazy breach
Its not nearly as hard as it sounds
dusk stone
sub is wide in difficulty not that much vertically
wild barn
Thank you all for your support! Im heading off for now
hoary lotus
Sub is the easiest rogue spec by far since no dust.
The only thing that makes it difficult is padding for parse.
weary saffron
Have you ever played sin
hoary lotus
Yes
More to keep up with, you have to play deathstalker. It's currently harder than sub.
Not by much, but still
hoary lotus
It's way more intricate than that. You're coping
hazy breach
In raid its not
lilac stag
blub doesn’t grasp how forgiving everything about assa is
supple verge
The real challenge comes in staying on the bleeding edge of bug abuse
lilac stag
The real challenge of assa is staying fucking awake 2 hours into raid.
jaunty heath
I‘m confused how you could even come to the conclusion that assa is harder in raid, sure in keys there’s a lot of nuances but like
In raid???
Keep bleeds up hit envenom at 7cp when weakaura shows purple combo point
Mutilate mutilate envenom 
exotic kelp
Ermmm aktually
dusk stone
brother, assa took like 5 keys to get higher than my highest sub parse
i'm not sure in what world i would ever describe that as harder
when people say that i just go, sub logs for keys please
oh wait those dont exist
hexed sluice
I did one assa key and it was super easy to do well, but yeah falling asleep.im sure I wasn't tracking everything proper, but it's not for me
Trickster is just fun plain and simple. so I'll get to that mount sooner or later
marsh zealot
Hey guys, i'm a new rogue, what is the best spec for mythic+ and raiding at the moment, someone told me it's outlaw!?
dull wigeon
Yea gotta wait a week or so to see what it lines up to be
lucid jackal
This is such a good timestamp for example what I feel is going to happen next week lol
sullen hare
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vURj5PzU5-A&t=1s
dusk stone
why do you have ads
hoary lotus
https://www.youtube.com/live/3b7uWPEN0Ok?si=Y48uhuoUhgFES8mw&t=16381
Pve and pvp balance compared is crazy
lucid jackal
hm?
dusk stone
https://www.youtube.com/live/3b7uWPEN0Ok?si=Y48uhuoUhgFES8mw&t=16381
yeah i kind of just dont believe that narrative tbh
dusk stone
we buff something enough to make it competitive and then suddenly there is a large amount of people saying 'wait we're weak now what's going on here'
true.... but like also very not true representation of that
lucid jackal
What?
That's not what he's saying at all
How is that what you extracted from what he said
dusk stone
i have become very jaded listening to devs talk about balance over the years
bleak night
why is x axis not labeled
lucid jackal
How are u jaded at his statement
bleak night
lucid jackal
Nothing he said is wrong
dusk stone
because i dont think in general that was something that actually happened like that
lucid jackal
But it literally happens in wow, all the time
dusk stone
that there is a 30% delta of certain specs both ways when people start playing one class over the other with balance changes on one end
lucid jackal
that people say "x is 10% worse than the next spec" and then they buff that spec by 10%, and then the spec ends up being 15% better
dusk stone
the phenomena described is real, the difference described was not
lucid jackal
I mean that literally happened with sin this tier lol
Remember how bad sin looked on the early weeks, cuz the perception was that sub was significantly better?
dusk stone
yeah but did anyone who knew what they were talking about believe that
people know sub scales very well early on
lucid jackal
If "everybody clearly knew that" why did sin get a 6% buff then?
This is what week 3 looked like in logs btw
bleak night
i miss when aug was that low
bleak night
i miss when survival was that high
lucid jackal
Gonna say first of all, I don't think survival is that strong
dusk stone
isnt that just 6%?
lucid jackal
Yes
lucid jackal
ok
dusk stone
i dont think perception had a lot to do with it
lucid jackal
ok
U think the best players in the game all playing sub over assa had anything to do with the fact that assa was way lower on logs 1 week vs another?
dusk stone
i am not 100% sure what to say on that specifically
i dont know enough about early tier prog
lucid jackal
How does that effect your answer
dusk stone
i think it effects the outcome yeah
sub is also used for different things in raid
purposes change
lucid jackal
So you do agree that there is such a thing as sampling bias
Where the best players gravitating towards 1 spec, vs another, does affect how it looks on average on some encounters
Or
dusk stone
i think the better question is how much does sampling bias impact things
dusk stone
right
thats why i didnt want to try and commentate on that, idk how much is sampling bias how much is other stuff
i dont think its a 60% delta
on average or something
plush roost
I cant wait to play OaB as sub and do 4m dps on tueaday
lucid jackal
Where is it a 60% delta?
plush roost
Hehe
dusk stone
thats what the dudes graph looked like
lucid jackal
It's called an example
molten citrus
thats what the dudes graph looked like
the example was from like, WotLK or something
molten citrus
the example
lucid jackal
..?
molten citrus
not the video
dusk stone
yeah the example was, video was not, correct?
molten citrus
the example used in the video
lucid jackal
This is what balanced looked like in old wow btw
And this was cata not wrath
It was even WORSE in wrath
dusk stone
i know, stuff long ago was purportedly not balanced well
lucid jackal
and this is with people also being WAY better at the game right now
a 60% delta back then isn't unreasonable tbqh
Look how much better demo is in cata
compared to destro/aff
dusk stone
im saying i dont think a sampling bias is like 60% in modern day
lucid jackal
Sure
thank god sub isn't 60% worse than sin rn then
If we look at sprocket for example
dusk stone
and i dont think you should use an example of an egregious phenomenon being used as an example of something to care about today
like i would rather say
lucid jackal
Heres sub rogue for example
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say theres probably some really good rogue players, not playing sub rn, cuz sub is bad
and can probably find more damage than what ropaa is doing specifically
molten citrus
and i dont think you should use an example of an egregious phenomenon being used...
but it still happens to this day
the swing just isn't as large
lucid jackal
If you took ropaas damage here, and make it 4% stronger, he would be doing around 2.9m
dusk stone
to be clear
lucid jackal
Which would be top 50 on sprocket btw
dusk stone
im not saying sampling bias doesn't exist, im saying that delta because of that update, really had that disparate of an effect
it was probably dramatized
lucid jackal
Well ur original comment was
plush roost
With the rate in which sprocket is dying people are going to be doing 3.5 min sprocket pulls lmfao
lucid jackal
"I don't believe this narrative"
dusk stone
yeah
plush roost
Sub gonna be mega lowkey
dusk stone
i didnt recall saying i dont believe in sampling biases
dusk stone
i think he was just dramatizing it
shrewd lantern
sub and sin are both literally fine
lucid jackal
He is not, wow players act like this all the time
dusk stone
outlaw is cooking rn in keys
shrewd lantern
people just see the other 2 rogue specs as
"burst cd spec, goodge"
Yeah outlaw cooking so hard in keys that wox stopped playing it
lucid jackal
I mean I had a lot of high rankslogs on sub but was private logging cuz we do as a guild, I haven't touched that spec since prog
I'm gonna play it on reset
Should be fun
dusk stone
post your logs if you can/do
lucid jackal
They are private
dusk stone
He is not, wow players act like this all the time
have we actually seen a sampling bias this patch? fire mage maybe
lucid jackal
aug
Aug was getting chain buffed, wcl didn't move
got a 5% buff one week
got 12% better on a random week
lucid jackal
and then it suddenly good enough to do 19s
dusk stone
was there slept on specs
lucid jackal
arcane when it got buffed like a month ago was on the cusp of being good
Ppl who knew, knew how good it was
and then it got buffed
Just underplayed
now its just played
dusk stone
so not really any major sampling bias
lucid jackal
I mean I'm not gonna argue this anymore
the lead game designer explains what happens
If u don't want to believe it go ahead
dusk stone
i think what i am actually implying is that what i took from that video
is that they are afraid to do certain things because of sampling biases
lucid jackal
Lol
Yeah idk what to say to that
He literally says in the video "what matters more than actual balance is perception"
thats the opposite of "we dont buff because we are afriad of sampling bias"
Like
I genuinly dont understand how you can watch that clip and come to that conclusion, it makes no sense
shrewd lantern
Tbh thats kind of what happened with sin
its not that sin was bad at the start of the tier
dusk stone
He literally says in the video "what matters more than actual balance is percept...
a statement of all time for sure
bleak night
lucid jackal
This is like game design 101
Every developer understands that modern balance is more than "what do stats say"
Community perception plays a massive role
dusk stone
the thing, i see statements like that and all the other statements from all the other games i've played and the history of changes in those things
and i wonder
well this is probably why things are bad
lucid jackal
because the devs balance around community feedback..?
bleak night
are things bad
lucid jackal
The devs just listen to TOO MUCH feedback
lucid jackal
Thats what they are doing?
dusk stone
except a regular statement around here is they don't balance around the other primary game mode
i dont see that, but i get to see perception is what's important
shrewd lantern
anyone else remember
when taking aug was honestly a damage loss
but groups still wanted it even in their lower keys
yeah perception is huge
short radish
Community perception plays a massive role
not really related but this is acutally very true
its the same thing with interest rates
gotta make people really think its doom and gloom to force inflation down
dusk stone
have they done that?
rocky ocean
round latch
tribal blade
@hazy breach i figured out a hack, started using haste flask over chaos as bleed build
which sims lower
but the ST is better with it
so not only my ST improved by my overall improved
lilac stag
so not only my ST improved by my overall improved
oh shit there’s no going back, you’ve hit m+ feelycrafter. show details you cowards. you won’t!
tribal blade
oh shit there’s no going back, you’ve hit m+ feelycrafter. show details you cowa...
hahaa
18 DFC
exotic kelp
assa talk in my good sub channel
tribal blade
assa talk in my good sub channel
yeah i'm a traitor
vale pine
4% buffs 📈
native zodiac
Vexxie on wed 
haughty mural
i might try running some sub keys after reset
Oh I absolutely will - already recrafted everything in prep
keen dome
Sub week, Sub week, Sub week 
lilac stag
Watch them forget to push the buff to live. 
fierce cedar
people be like: "need full meta comp for m0"
wild hornet
on OAB, at what time do you spawn the cc/uncc-able adds? ours are closer to the intermission after 2 mins instead of 1:35
fierce cedar
just kill all that moves
void ocean
@alpine wraith happy bday 😛
alpine wraith
thx people
wild hornet
the man the myth the legend
void ocean
The Cook 😄
keen dome
@alpine wraith hell yeah, happy birthday! Hope you have a gooood day.
alpine wraith
nice go into assa channel and begin a civil war
we are still in the high of getting buffed
fierce cedar
lol
kinda interesting that the simulationcraft website sims assa as the lowest dps spec
with sub being second lowest
worn ivy
Cannot compare like that
fierce cedar
alpine wraith
i dont know if sims were sent after assa buffs to simc
we dont really care that much about updating those usually
fierce cedar
dunno all i can see is "Timestamp: 2025-05-25 09:01:34+0000"
id assume its up to date but what do i know
alpine wraith
maybe assa is just made diff
fierce cedar
sims on raidbots are based on simulationcraft though right?
so if the sims arent correct then whats the point in simming
or am i just lost lol
vale pine
!sheet has up to date sims
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
sub buffs not included ill wait for reset to add them
wild hornet
waiting for the day assa is last
keen dome
I want all rogue specs to be around the same 'cos then people can play what they enjoy
All within margin of error so whenever you compare them they all swap positions. The ultimate balance.
wild vine
Nerfing outlaw should be a given
haughty mural
@alpine wraith happy birthday OG 🫡
haughty rose
ah man should i get the pacemaker with my second set of cartel chips? i got HoC Hero track with the first one and would still have another one next week. i only pug so i'll probably never get to gally or even bandit. rik is realistic tbf
cursive vapor
@alpine wraith happy birthday also from me 
alpine wraith
depends how realistic is for you to kill M gally or M oab
if not pacekeeper is fine
as for the bday things thx people being 30 hits diff
keen yew
on OAB, at what time do you spawn the cc/uncc-able adds? ours are closer to the ...
around 2:30 for the cc able ones, and the noncc are never spawned but that's how we reclear
haughty rose
depends how realistic is for you to kill M gally or M oab
idrk tbf. how realistic is it for pug to kill them? i never set foot into mythic raids till now but am eager to change it.
also happy bday
void ocean
as for the bday things thx people being 30 hits diff
spoiler alert: ||it gets worse||
keen dome
Say goodbye to your knees.
cursive vapor
alr grey hair?
void ocean
arms heavy?
sacred yarrow
🎂 have a good one, Hachadino 
keen dome
also yea i have some white hairs
the cost of playing sub, alas
fierce cedar
waiting for the day assa is last
well... assa has been last for the longest time. only the last expansion and now has it been anywhere near the top of rogues
alpine wraith
oh no
haughty mural
as for the bday things thx people being 30 hits diff
Been there - it’s not too bad tho
patent crystal
and can probably find more damage than what ropaa is doing specifically
Yes
umbral wren
Hey guys I currently main a lock , used to main rogue and war . Was wondering is rogue an easier class to parse good with ? I really enjoy ranged but I feel I was just a better melee player and come to the conclusion I enjoy being good more than anything else
alpine wraith
parsing as sub will be hard because there are not many of us
so even if you get a good rank the number will be quite lower
alpine wraith
competition will be fierce
bleak night
a dark road is ahead of you
umbral wren
Yeah that’s true . I just find it more hard to dish damage out as ranged since dodging mechanics and constant moving
Whenever you can plant your feet it’s fun but it’s never like that
wild vine
If you cant parse as lock you just arent good enough, your raid isnt good enough or you got something awkward going
Thats not really a swap angle imo
bleak night
dw once they delete combat addons they'll put in less swirlies to dodge
so you can plant more
umbral wren
My parses have gotten a lot better my main issue actually is m+
alpine wraith
dont worry sub is horrendous for any externals except automn
umbral wren
I feel ranged just get shafted
umbral wren
Unless your a mage who has alter 2x blink etc
alpine wraith
that is bait
wild vine
My parses have gotten a lot better my main issue actually is m+
I hope you dont mean m+ parses
umbral wren
Yeah I get it . It’s funny because any other class that’s ranged in ther discord it’s the other way around
Preference I guess
wild vine
(not poking into your direction)
Rangeds are notorious for thinking they got it bad, melee is easier and melee should do EVERYTHING while they just chill
short radish
oh no i have to move 2 pixels and cancel a cast
hollow spear
Ranged in m+ is the dream
I feel like in raid there's some bosses which favour melee and others which favour ranged
Locken is a good melee fight (besides us getting trolled by fw)
bleak night
they always make sure to add one boss each tier that ranged have to do stuff on
hollow spear
I feel like Rik should have ended all the ranged vs melee discussions
Ranged were crying for melee not swapping to adds in Africa and when you checked their damage done, they all cleaved off the boss
short radish
i fucking hate fire mages
umbral wren
Hwhwhwhah
short radish
Ranged were crying for melee not swapping to adds in Africa and when you checked...
melee being top add damage and then told to do even more
daring raptor
Ranged were crying for melee not swapping to adds in Africa and when you checked...
the dumb thing about this is, if you don't directly hit the mobs you want get the dmg buff
bleak night
haste 
vestal escarp
aight so robot is very adamant about me running 5k crit total in my sub gear 
rngjesus take the wheel
daring raptor
i have 2.8k
hollow spear
Sometimes I swapped to an add to get more sectec value
Or if very unlucky with spawns ofc
daring raptor
btw seen alot more sub rogues do one evis before sectech. this is not a thing right ?
hollow spear
So many tanks inted by not pulling the boss on the adds
Tanking on rails
I hate that
bleak night
my guilds tanks absolutely refused to move boss to barrels
so i was actually just having to hard swap
alpine wraith
most of the hard ones got nerfed and we got more gear
but sprocket stix and mug zee were very challenging first weeks
alpine wraith
meanwhile people boosting them with 5 bostees
short radish
haughty mural
Ranged were crying for melee not swapping to adds in Africa and when you checked...
I was so mad back then
„mY dArKgLaRe CaNt Do DaMaGe oThErWiSe“
void ocean
do we know how much dmg we can expect from that 11.1.7 belt?
haughty mural
tribal blade
oh shit happy bday @alpine wraith , welcome to the 30s club
hollow spear
@alpine wraith happy birthday and welcome to the old men's club!
fallow nimbus
Now he officially can't play outlaw
vale pine
happy birthday, ancient man
alpine wraith
now everyone can be old together
cursive vapor
You look no day older than 29!
short radish
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
fierce cedar
oof
gotta love waiting 45min to form a group for the healer to die on the first pull and insta leave
alpine wraith
fated
lilac stag
Just blame the rogue. Shoulda done more dps.
steady dune
for Rik Reverb, the wowhead guide says "You can use Evasion and keep attacking when he does the ground pound aoe cycle, but make sure to face the boss.", does this mean the amp slams?
steady dune
ah gotcha, thanks. I was going to try it next raid day lol
short radish
human racial still works 🙂
lilac stag
@vale pine #subtlety message
alpine wraith
yea as a human just feint
and racial step
did anyone check if mug zee mines still work with evasion?
brisk onyx
it works when i farm mug'zee at 5/22
lilac stag
@alpine wraith congrats on making it around the sun one more time!
lucid jackal
Yes
Haha didn't intend to flame, was just trying to make the point that the sub buff is probably gonna lead to more damage than people think
tidal marsh
I saw Guy spit on a Pomeranian once
vale pine
for Rik Reverb, the wowhead guide says "You can use Evasion and keep attacking w...
oh, i forgot to remove that, thats fixed
sadly
moment, ill change it.
tribal blade
i've forgotten how to play sub
do i macro symbols and dance
do i press sectec as soon as it comes off cd
tribal blade
do i use every symbols charge back to backl
i'm so lost
(nah i could never forget how to play sub)
vale pine
haha
tribal blade
you reminded me of a quote i love
it's like riding a bike
except the bike is on fire
and you're on fire
and everything is on fire
because you're in hell
brittle plinth
gotta love waiting 45min to form a group for the healer to die on the first pull...
Had a completion run on priory yesterday with a druid tank from a server I'd have avoided if I was forming. He pulled last boss, pulled some additional adds and then alt-f4d probably cause timer was up. Probably didn't read the completion part but even then, why not just finish?
This behavior ruins the fun of m+ so much
fierce cedar
no clue
just stupid tbh
they should add a proper punishment system to this game
its looooong overdue
void hound
did everybody change their OAB strat or am i just straight cucked out of padding
short radish
did everybody change their OAB strat or am i just straight cucked out of padding
changes every week 🙂
brittle plinth
This is the one crap part about no servers, and xserver stuff. No such thing as a reputation. But inversely, the classic discord owners and their blacklists were drunk on miniscule power and did stupid shit.
short radish
theres a few different push strats now
i think the speed one still has bomb popping up at like 1:40
which lines up with flag
short radish
honestly i kinda yoloed cds
and things just lined up
whatever the spawn of bombs that you cnat walk into are
i dunno i didnt prog it
void hound
coin + bomb
lilac stag
i think the speed one still has bomb popping up at like 1:40
Our prog / speed just had bombs just at the end.
short radish
how fast is was your kill?
lilac stag
hmm lemme check
void hound
i just hit whatever my RL tells me to hit
based honestly
lilac stag
5:32 which seemed fast for prog
patent crystal
Haha didn't intend to flame, was just trying to make the point that the sub buff...
all good, 1/2 our raid died, so with better kill timer i agree
short radish
5:32 which seemed fast for prog
yeah thats pretty quick
void hound
between wire transfer
short radish
fast one s now are like 5minish
short radish
im forced into a suport awkward third flag
thats such shit timing lol
dont get get 2nd pot
void hound
yup
patent crystal
wont expect to get 4th use of cds anymore (on sprocket)
lilac stag
We lusted right at 4 mins to push. Which I think was sooner than most strats
lapis dune
hello @tribal blade
tribal blade
hello <@146180393941336064>
yo1
hollow spear
It's so funny that Ropaa has a 100 parse and their ret parses 97 with > 300k dps more than them
Still don't understand that ret buff
lucid jackal
The average ret player is really bad, also ret gains a lot of dps from ppl dying so if u have a kill where 5 people die its exceptionally insane
But yeah
100% didn't deserve a buff
fathom gazelle
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
strange chasm
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
tribal blade
the warrior on my raid team i'm pushing with swapped to ret just for keys
because he wants to do 0 thinking while doing big dam
hollow spear
The average ret player is really bad, also ret gains a lot of dps from ppl dying...
That's why our ret always parses well
If you want to parse as ret, don't join a good guild
tribal blade
why in the hell did i just get an ad on youtube
bras for small breasted women
am i missing something
are my breasts not big enough
hollow spear
Well, are they?
hollow spear
Maybe a small bra is what you need to support you in your title race
fierce cedar
ait this does it im cursed
3 dungeons in a row the healer leave on the first pull. 1 time because they died and 2 times before the pull was even over for no reason
fierce cedar
well im not playing healer, not happening. not sure about the pre made group though
hard finding people to play with
i dont know how people do that
opal basalt
I’m not the best example for the first one either tbf
Played healer since I started doing proper endgame content in DF s2
And I just cba anymore
fierce cedar
i just feel stressed out
especially when people dont dodge anything lol
talking about dodging etc
people really do refuse to do mechanics sometimes i swear
0 interrupts, cc or anything lol
opal basalt
Details don’t go brr when you play mechanics, ofc you don’t do them
fierce cedar
sounds like a skill issue to me
i usually averages around 25-30 interrupts per dungeon at least
opal basalt
Famous quote from my GM during Aberrus: “Healers heal”
fierce cedar
i think thats pretty acceptable
fierce cedar
Famous quote from my GM during Aberrus: “Healers heal”
lmao
peak coaching
my gm in amirdrassil wanted us to eat grass like sheep on Nymue lol
doing sheep noises in vc
glacial orbit
doing sheep noises in vc
i bet most sounded like goats
and not sheeps
and didn't even realize it
fierce cedar
probably
zenith prism
@vale pine is raidbots using the wrong value of duskthread lining?
504 in raidbots, but 756 in game
lucid jackal
raidbots just pulls from wcl tooltips
fiery pewter
Moral of the story? Play healer urself or pre-made with one
Im fortunate enough to have 2-3 friends whom I have played with since TBC and still do M+ every weekend, one of whom only plays tank/healer, the other has some tanks, and I have a healer alt. I never have to sit in a queue. We only do 10s and 12s though, don't try and push as high as we can like we used to
opal basalt
That’s a damn long friendship for sure
I started playing dps mainly this season (still healing in mainraid, but really looking to change that for next season). Havoc has been a blast even tho it wasn’t super OP. Currently trying out some other classes. Destro Lock gotta be my fav caster. Rogue always looked tempting but the rogues in my guild always advised others against it. I’m looking forward to learning sub now nevertheless tbf.
vale pine
<@194804407706189824> is raidbots using the wrong value of duskthread lining?
should use the right one
or you mean the tooltip
that one is often not correctly parsed
fierce cedar
low keys is a pain
trying to ramp only for everything to die before you even reach half way
feels bad man
fiery pewter
That’s a damn long friendship for sure
I was just thinking about that last weekend, doesn't feel that long but that is damn near 20 years lol
fathom gazelle
yo are we macroing symbols to shadow dance? i see the raidbots seems to always send them together?
nvm im blind
vale pine
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.!sod
wicked joltBOT
Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs
clever delta
whats up with FW that everyone hating on it?
hazy breach
It feels really bad on sprocket so more people have noticed it
And in keys its just not great either, makes the eviscerate VS BP tuning be really weird
And since the uptime is generally so high theres no payoff to compensate, it either feels really bad or it feels like it should, its not a debuff that ever makes you feel good about it
void ocean
And since the uptime is generally so high theres no payoff to compensate, it eit...
as Marcus Aurelius would say, debuff is not an issue, its your attitude towards that debuff 😄
merry agate
In this specific case...
It's just shit
vale pine
find weakness is just a very weird interaction
it was introduced for more depth to our finishing spells, but just complicates things and makes things random or punishing
dry plank
Weird or not it’s part of kit so we need to deal with it ))
hollow spear
By complaining
There's quite some stuff that ends up feeling punishing rather than rewarding
fiery pewter
If they insist on keeping it, at least remove the positioning requiremen
clever delta
hm
void hound
Fw is awkward these days, wouldnt mind if it got removed
same with fazed
brittle plinth
it was introduced for more depth to our finishing spells, but just complicates t...
It felt better when you had to extend it's up time with ambush and it was more impactful. Now it's something I barely think about.
fallow nimbus
fw with the shadow shit just split our finishers in half because hachadino went for the highest crit possible 
bright elk
I miss those big crits :*)
alpine wraith
im sorrey friends
but yea WoD was peak then legion was kinda a disaster until last 2 raids
then bfa was cool but we were undertuned
after it was tainted
brittle plinth
WoD sub was a lot of plates but it was tons of fun
first xpac of personal cp? I think
inner pollen
whats the bets head enchant for sub?
lilac stag
whats the bets head enchant for sub?
You can sim them on raidbots. EV is not performing at the level of sims currently.
lilac stag
im alone i guess
It was good for the content. It would be misery with m+
brittle plinth
WoD was incredible if you ignore all the downtime. I guess same could be said for cata but blizz killed that one 2x with downtime somehow
haughty rose
finally
workshop was my absolute nemesis but ended up with a nice pug group where i was top DPS and we even ++ it
3.19M
dry plank
Low keys at this time is disaster yes. Gratz
haughty rose
Low keys at this time is disaster yes. Gratz
you tell me. so many times where they key was toast after a few pulls where there was nothing i could've done better
1 big pull, 1 dps dies VDH leaves instantly
haughty mural
It was good for the content. It would be misery with m+
fair argument - i can agree with that
vestal veldt
alright i just swapped to trickster build when i go to the dance i go first secret technique and evicerate last ? and the rest of the combos are the same ?
deathstalker just not enough dmg in m+
ivory laurel
Do you guys think its bad/any downsides to put my Keybinds on the WA/CD tracker? (I'm pretty new to wow)
I'd like to miinimize the action bars and looking at them while still being able to see the binds for now.
I've never seen any content creators or UI's on youtube of anyone doing that so maybe theres something not good about it?
lucid jackal
Unsure what u mean
lucid jackal
Like instead of using a weakaura, you are allignging your bars in such a way that they'd be in place of where the icons would be on a typical weakaura package?
lucid jackal
That could work to a point, but then how do u track buffs
ivory laurel
Well u can still see the timer no? And i don't mean put the keybind on the buffs that spawn in on top but the CD ones under the bars
molten citrus
Well u can still see the timer no? And i don't mean put the keybind on the buffs...
Ye that’s fine
molten citrus
Most people are just so used to keybinds after years of playing that they don’t need the extra clutter
lucid jackal
Oh
Yeah I mean
There's no harm in adding a text line to each weakaura that shows the actual keybind of each skill
ivory laurel
Mhm, and then I can put the other abilities (not shown in WA) still on the bars but i'td be less crowded/less bars atleast bc I don't like the clutter either
Oh really, that'd be nice thanks
lilac stag
There should be a show keybinds in WA and the action bars
molten citrus
Idr if it’s native to WA or if it’s from another addon interacting with WAs
fiery pewter
May not be a good practice to get into considering the war on addons right now
ivory laurel
War on addons?
hollow spear
If it helps you learn sub, why not
molten citrus
Nothing is happening to addons in a long time
hollow spear
Wouldn't worry about that right now
molten citrus
Don’t worry about it
ivory laurel
Kayy, I'm hoping to learn the binds anyways asap so i can look around me eventually :3
fiery pewter
Nothing is happening to addons in a long time
Time will tell I suppose. Seems they are trying to baby step it
lucid jackal
Yeah so worry about tomorrow's problems tomorrow
molten citrus
I mean they’ve literally stated it
lucid jackal
Today's problems is he wants to fix his weakaura package
Shouldn't be worried about post midnight design shifts 3+ years out lmao
ivory laurel
What do u guys think about the One click rotation thing? I saw a video and the guy said its 'more than just for accessability' and a good thing but it seems to really take away the point of the game imo
molten citrus
Personally I’m hoping they walk back half of it anyway
lucid jackal
What do u guys think about the One click rotation thing? I saw a video and the g...
It's going to be really bad performance wise so
ivory laurel
Oh okay
molten citrus
What do u guys think about the One click rotation thing? I saw a video and the g...
It’s mostly just an accessibility feature
lucid jackal
Anybody who thinks this is gonna be the future of wow rotations is genuinely an idiot
It's a feature for people who don't want to concern themselves with a rotation
Which is the most casual player base possible
ivory laurel
Thats good. So we can still enjoy getting better at a class atleast x_x
stark basin
howdy folks new to rogue was wondering if leveling dps sucks all around or is it just me
i only have good dps when i pop cds
otherwise im at like 12-15k
molten citrus
We just told you in #outlaw
There’s no sense in worrying about dps while leveling
Gotta use the correct weapon for your spec and you’re good to go
dusk stone
a lot of new people asking about sub/rogue last few days
ivory laurel
Yesss. Im loving rogue a lot and decently new to wow ;D
I maiined Enhance last season and honestly I didn't like it to much so i'm a bit supised because some friends told me if I didn't like enhance I wouldn't like Rogue x_x
lucid jackal
Ppl just say rogue sucks
ivory laurel
fr!
lucid jackal
Very comment sentiment from people
ivory laurel
Everywhere on reddit too, said it was super clunky and didn't play well but i'm havivng a blast
lucid jackal
Yeah I mean
molten citrus
I maiined Enhance last season and honestly I didn't like it to much so i'm a bit...
Historically enhance has always been one of the clunkiest specs in the game
lucid jackal
Rogue has some issues but a lot of people just say rogue sucks and then that turns people away from the class which then in turn gets more people to say it's clunky and shit
molten citrus
Rogue is generally awesome, just stale to some who have been playing a long time
lucid jackal
Rogue is quirky, and energy as a resource is something a lot of people instantly bounce off of
There's like what, 5 energy specs in the game rn
All 3 rogue specs, feral and ww
And ww energy is fake atm
I think rogue in its current state is great. Sub is a bit undertuned, outlaw has to deal with killing Spree, sin is slow but that's just a feature
But rogue does take a bit more effort than stuff like pala so that's a very common critism as well
"omg it's just so much work to lose to ret paladins"
leaden prairie
i will legit never understand the
"its so much work"
wow is litteraly the only game where this happens idk
lucid jackal
Rogue is more effort than "exe wake judge gg"
leaden prairie
in league, people will look at harder champions
and maybe decide its not for them
molten citrus
It happens with FF too
leaden prairie
and they will look at skilled plays good people do on these champions and be like
wow thats cool
mayeb i can never do that
but thats fine
lucid jackal
Ppl also do complain about it in all games
leaden prairie
or they try to learn hard champuions cause it feels good to be good at hard stuffs
lucid jackal
"why is this braindead champ op rn when yasuo is bad"
ivory laurel
Yah and hopefully it doesn't push wow devs to do the same as in FF where every class is the same x_X
molten citrus
That’s just gamers
leaden prairie
the whole "work" thing is so weird idk
lucid jackal
Yah and hopefully it doesn't push wow devs to do the same as in FF where every c...
Won't happen so
molten citrus
X requires more skill, it should be more rewarding
ivory laurel
I love the work u put into a class and get rewarded for it
molten citrus
That’s kind of a common sentiment
fiery pewter
Rogue is a lot of fun
leaden prairie
i picked rogue because at the time i started the game it was considered the hardest class in the game
and thats what i was looking for
fiery pewter
Sub is the most fun for me personally
leaden prairie
cause im an ego player
ivory laurel
same xp
molten citrus
i picked rogue because at the time i started the game it was considered the hard...
Ye I tend to do the same
fiery pewter
Outlaw is fun too, but im smooth brain and got myself killed using Killing Spree
leaden prairie
Ye I tend to do the same
i litteraly went and did the exact same shit in fellowship beta
looked for the hardest char and played that
but idk
molten citrus
Ye I did it with lost ark, FF, etc
leaden prairie
its satysfing
leaden prairie
Outlaw is fun too, but im smooth brain and got myself killed using Killing Spree
ye well
killing spree
lucid jackal
I play pocket in deadlock 
leaden prairie
is a bit much tho
ivory laurel
Mastering the class/spec and getting good at it is such a nice feeling ;D
leaden prairie
in regard to difficulty
there is some limits
you cannot cross
killing spree crosses that limit 10 times over
sterile kiln
ye but imagine you get shit talked by a ret pala who has to press 2 buttons while your spec requires perfect cd management and is undertuned
it would be a bit annoying
ivory laurel
fair
sterile kiln
but not everyone cares about that
fiery pewter
I used to have a lot of fun with Summoner in FF14 before they gutted it and removed the fun. New visuals are cool but the spec is so brain dead, used to be pretty complex at least how complex a game like FF14 can actually be
ivory laurel
My parents are related 
lucid jackal
If ppl talk shut just talk shit back
fiery pewter
My parents are related <:ohmy:983360434650370118>
molten citrus
ivory laurel
Yah thats not a joke lmao, they didn't know each other while growing up but they're first cousins 😭
lucid jackal
Tell him his rotation looks like this
molten citrus
molten citrus
Isn’t there one that’s just storm powder
lilac stag
not that I remember.
rustic raven
opal basalt
does that mean i need a Backstab bind on my stealth bar btw?
i've been wondering about this the entire day today
opal basalt
alright
warm compass
Is sub gonna be viable come reset?
worn ivy
no
lucid jackal
Is sub gonna be viable come reset?
Ya, still worse in keys
Probably anyway
Sin and outlaw are very good in keys
warm compass
Gotcha, can't be trolling now, what do you think Assa or Outlaw then @lucid jackal
dawn summit
I play pocket in deadlock <:Okayge:911522072797253643>
lash skill ceiling 1000x higher (and the character is useful in soloq pepela) pocketcels seething
(jk)
lucid jackal
Gotcha, can't be trolling now, what do you think Assa or Outlaw then <@968345204...
For dungeons?
lucid jackal
lash skill ceiling 1000x higher (and the character is useful in soloq pepela) po...
Bro pocket is so shit rn
Worst spirit scaling of any character
Ult does peanut damage
Character kills people for 20 minute and then literally is a bystander the rest of the game 💔
strange chasm
I mean some are still doing high keys as sub
Sin is for sure better but you can play sub
dusk stone
you say that but we are at like a 30-50% deficit compared to just the other rogue specs
strange chasm
I don't think that is true at all lmao. Top sub rogue did 5.5 on Flood 18. Top sin on 18 flood is only 5.7.
Not the best at math but that doesn't look like a 30-50% diff
vagrant fulcrum
lucid jackal
I don't think that is true at all lmao. Top sub rogue did 5.5 on Flood 18. Top s...
Go look at sprocket damasge
rank1 sin is like 3.1
Rank1 sub is like 2.8
short radish
you say that but how come I keep playing the ST build when im sub
(for legal reasons this comment was made in satire)
dusky meteor
guys during raid, how many dances and symbols do you send outside of your shadowblade/flag? i saw shindigg's vid about it.
do you really just do 1 shadow dance? i tried it on dummy, im sitting on 2 dances already before the 1:30 cds are up
tepid trellis
guys during raid, how many dances and symbols do you send outside of your shadow...
Sometimes 2 sometimes 1 it kinda alternates
lucid jackal
Add 5% tho makes it 2.94 vs 3.1
Well also keep in mind of sampling bias
Timestamped thing that ion talks about
strange chasm
Yeah better players will typically play what is the absolute best
So will be interesting to see how sub does on reset but again season is over so meh
lilac stag
If they’re close people will just play assa
lilac stag
nothing been stopping ya from playing it now on your reclears.
lucid jackal
its exceptionally shit atm
I want it to be strong so I can play it
Idc if most ppl wold rather play sin over sub when its close
I'd rather play sub over sin when its close lol
lilac stag
Now it’s exceptionally shit? So 4.2% is making it strong? No… rogue is just mid and assa 📉 as execute windows shrinking and add getting deleted by better specs with turbo times.
lucid jackal
4.2% makes better yeah
And sub gets better with turbo times?
Shorter kills = more blades uptime
bosses dying at 3:30 rather than 4:05 is huge for sub
lilac stag
Get those 2:30 kill times. 
warm compass
For dungeons?
Both, sorry was helping the wife.
tribal blade
ok i have 28% crit in my sub gear
dusk stone
probably too much crit
brisk onyx
ok i have 28% crit in my sub gear
olive helm
is 16% crit ok with 93% mast and 27% poly ?
graceful crown
my haste being lower than my leech is funny
also, whats the best to sim for head enchant, im trying out st and cleave now dungeon slice but results vary
tribal blade
probably too much crit
oh yeah it's for sure too much crit
maybe i don't play sub on reclear this reset
they need to just give us like a full spark every reset later into a tier
can someone with ~680ilvl link their patchwerk sim, just wanna compare
(only if you're completely decked out for sub)
graceful crown
does 679 cut it
tribal blade
yeah that's fine
graceful crown
warm marlin
im missing jastor diamond
tribal blade
i don't have jastors either 😉
graceful crown
bruh im simming 7 mins 😭
tribal blade
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7oyRy6U7AtV4Xwbmjmmok8 ok this is mine
warm marlin
myth pacemaker 
tribal blade
yeah quite significantly behind with wonky stats
tribal blade
myth pacemaker <a:RAGEY:1174480252530081813>
from vault 😉
oh that's right i'm running pacemaker with 28% crit
that's super troll
warm marlin
im honestly just praying the diamond is in my vault so I dont have to wait for 18 months from now to buy pacemaker
graceful crown
from vault 😉
my tragic story is that i had it multiple times but i never took it cuz i thought it was bad 
tribal blade
my guild just killed gally so maybe it drops next reclear
tribal blade
my tragic story is that i had it multiple times but i never took it cuz i though...
oh noooo
graceful crown
warm marlin
my guild just killed gally so maybe it drops next reclear
im pretty sure we've had a loot buyer every week since killing
graceful crown
here's 5 mins
warm marlin
no diamonds for us except from vault
tribal blade
dude is it bait to go gushing wounds
no it's good for pure ST, but the difference is small
BUT also there's only 1 fight in the raid that's 1 target
so i just run void ritual everywhere
graceful crown
BUT also there's only 1 fight in the raid that's 1 target
legit.... should i just sim cleave or dungeon slice
my issue is the sim varies for all so there's no fit all size
tribal blade
i wouldn't think too hard about it tbh
graceful crown
my dumbass overthinkins too much
i'll just use ritual until void is fixed i suppose
ev*
evanescence
tribal blade
hell yeah 😉
graceful crown
also my dumbass did not understand the assignment 💀 everyone posting their quick sim and im posting actual gear sim
tribal blade
also my dumbass did not understand the assignment 💀 everyone posting their qui...
haha no worries
warm marlin
gonna be 2.8M after reset 
tribal blade
i don't wanna go into raid getting mediocre parses because of my wonky stats
graceful crown
i actually did a key as outlaw with sub gear and my main gauge was near between the eyes in dps
thats how much excess mastery i have
lol
warm marlin
i don't wanna go into raid getting mediocre parses because of my wonky stats
why dont have u have crafted ring over cyrces btw
isnt it a rather big upgrade at that point
short radish
my haste being lower than my leech is funny
should enchant for speed
tribal blade
why dont have u have crafted ring over cyrces btw
because all my gear is now for sin smile
so my crafted ring is haste/mast
tribal blade
i'm not gonna recraft just for reclear
rotund briar
Dumb question but is it okay to macro House of Cards with Shadow Dance?
honest basin
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.!sod
wicked joltBOT
Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs
short radish
do it or coward
warm marlin
im prob full playing sub this week
playing assa while seeing that jastor is like 40k increase kinda feels bad
tribal blade
do it or coward
i might be coward
warm marlin
robot told me to make my crafted ring/neck both crit/vers rather than vers/mast 
crit good
tribal blade
and its now telling me to gem vers/crit
yeah i was surprised how little the difference was having 28% crit
i thought the simmed difference would have been more than 0.7%
short radish
im getting 0.5% increase to swap everything to vers/crit
exotic kelp
So I've seen some sub players macro sectec onto SB, assuming you have sec tec also bound to a different key, is that still a big nono?
short radish
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.Yeah but naked and a cb sectech and a, potion racial shadow blades sectec
short radish
yeah
dusk stone
So I've seen some sub players macro sectec onto SB, assuming you have sec tec al...
yes because you want to use sectec a lot outside of blades and there will be situations where you want sectec but not sb
warm marlin
Yeah but naked and a cb sectech and a, potion racial shadow blades sectec
dont bind sectec to shadow blades
well
technically its not actually bad if you're only pressing it when you would want to press blades
but probably best to just get in the habit of pressing blades -> sectec or sectec -> blades
chrome palm
Sometimes in dungeons you’ll want to send a mini burst without blades, in that scenario binding sec tech to blades is bad
round latch
Thankfully its not a st raid tier
Well written article,enjoyed it.(Oozes frustration a bit 😅 )
(wowhead pirate one)
fallow nimbus
All you need is a sectec, sectec+cb and blades+cards macro, nothing more
worn ivy
Did you guys know if you using cb on 1 st sectech it lines up perfectly for next flag window. And overall u gain 3-4 cb in 30min dungeon (extra)
Fot st always cb flag window but in m+ icannot say same
dusk stone
youre saying if i use in my first flag windows
and then use it on CD
it completely lines up?
worn ivy
You use first cb on opener without flag
Sent in on 1st sechtech
I mean not without flag you just not using it on flag bufd
Buff
dusk stone
yeah i understand
worn ivy
You just ss-flag-rupture dance backstab symbols baldes cb sectech than on next flag window your cb will be ready
dusk stone
use it on cd basically after the 1st time
worn ivy
And if u compare me and other sub rogue in m+’ive extra 4-5 cb usage
And i think its a lot
dusk stone
do you use orc or nelf or human or what as racial
worn ivy
Im nelf so its whatever for me
dusk stone
you should check if the vanish tfd bug works for meld
plush roost
Did they ever figure out if the tfd reset works with meld? Or is it just vanish
fleet wharf
Is there anything we can do with NE racial as a sub rogue?
round latch
meld a targeted spell
fleet wharf
Right, so just defensive in general right?
round latch
well u could use to skip stuff and get out of combat but its clunky
very powerful for pvp though
fleet wharf
Yea, it seem s like at some point they made it so meld and stealth dont work the same
round latch
yeah meld is a different type of stealth
u meld=>stealth
in order to get stealthed
if u move it breaks
fleet wharf
I feel often times meld doesn't drop combat though
round latch
idk fam,not aware of the situations
plush roost
I have to use a stop attack macro and mash the button while also being out of melee range to get it to work half the time
Its very buggy with subterfuge and stuff, not that it matters much for sub
fleet wharf
so it is like /stopattack
/use shadowmeld?
plush roost
More like
#showtooltip Shadowmeld
/Stopattack
/Cast shadowmeld
/Stopattack
/Stopattack
/Cast !Stealth
/Stopattack
fleet wharf
lmao, i might give that a go
round latch
bro rly wants to stop attacking
round latch
ik,its the nature of meld
plush roost
Really matters for extra IC's in keys
round latch
its jsut unreliable
fleet wharf
IC?
plush roost
Or crackshot
round latch
indiscriminate carnage
plush roost
Assa rogue bleed spread
fleet wharf
ohh, yea that would be nice
plush roost
Or like when you die with vanish down and DN up
So u really wanna re-mark
Meld is the QoL i have always wanted sheesh
fleet wharf
it has to be an ambush specifically from stealth to reapply mark right?
plush roost
Ye
round latch
yup
plush roost
Or shadowstrike if ur syb
worn ivy
More like
#showtooltip Shadowmeld
/Stopattack
/Cast shadowmeld
/Stopattack
/Stop...
Should be adding cancelaura shadow dance and !stleath to this macro ive the best meld macro but im at phone right now
fleet wharf
that only procs if you have a mark expire though no?
fleet wharf
right, I haven't tried deathstalker this tier
round latch
More like
#showtooltip Shadowmeld
/Stopattack
/Cast shadowmeld
/Stopattack
/Stop...
Fun pvp fact : U can meld warrior storm bolts and completely negate warrior goes as a nelf
same for pala hoj,repentance,fears from locks etc
fleet wharf
just death coil, i dont think fear has travel time
round latch
has a cast time,u meld it,gain stealth
fleet wharf
oh interesting, so just making them waste the time spent casting i guess