subtlety

[keen dome]

A big part of pugging is working with the tools you've got, not the ones you wish you had.

Which is why I think that letting someone write their own WA's for the fight is in the spirit of things.

[swift tinsel]

I think things like tts reminders or stuff like that is fine

[keen dome]

Yeah

Entire raid experience must be streamed, too, imo.

[swift tinsel]

but if its like "marks X players for Y mechanic" gets a bit excessive

[keen dome]

And it has to be a full pug, not just right into the end boss

But obviously not in a single day

[swift tinsel]

Yeah that'd be pretty intense

but could potentially go for it if they wanted to, could be a strat play

[keen dome]

Yeah

[hexed sluice]

I only have w/A's and I go in blind to every fight pretty much with my guild, and I just setup some quick timers for phases etc to have handy for CDs in reclears/next raid night.

Dbm and that is just far too much screen clutter for me when I can just memorize the mechanics instead

[swift tinsel]

We have to watch videos in disc for heroic prog so no blind play lol

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[swift tinsel]

and Mythictrap

[keen dome]

Mythictrap is such a godsend as a RL

[swift tinsel]

I love it

[keen dome]

They are so good at compartmentalizing mechanics which let me think about it more cleanly

[swift tinsel]

we memed on it hard for dungeons in SL but its great for raid

[keen dome]

My typical way to do week 1 pugging is I read everything in-depth the night before. Then boss-by-boss I re-read as we go. And try to reduce it down to the most important mechanics and ignroe the rest.

[swift tinsel]

I imagine the ping system is amazingly valuable for pugging

[keen dome]

It's so good, and so funny

[swift tinsel]

I feel like I'm one of the only ones in our raid group that actively uses it on fights

[keen dome]

I've had people ragequit because I pinged them

Good pug tanks will proactively ping a lot and it's a joy

[swift tinsel]

lmao really?

[keen dome]

Yeah

[swift tinsel]

Oh yeah, even in m+ when they ping where they're gonna plant is super nice

[lilac stag]

Good pug tanks and healers carry everything

[swift tinsel]

100%

[hexed sluice]

Pinging is hit or miss I find

[keen dome]

It was on Ovi'nax early on. Dude ran onto another slice on the first break so I pinged him (something I do to mark people who make mistakes to correct on a wipe 'cos remembering names, esp when it's cyrllic, can be quite hard)

[swift tinsel]

like good tank positioning/movement in raid fights is so noticable

[keen dome]

And he immediately goes "don't ping me" so I pinged him again and he called me a slur and ragequit mid-fight

[lilac stag]

Want a good raid healer? Recruit one that can parse in pugs

[hexed sluice]

If someone in your group plays league, 9/10 they will hard tilt at a friendly ping

[keen dome]

lmao absolutely true

[swift tinsel]

not having to dps rik as he zooms across the map bc they pull him into narnia away from amps

[swift tinsel]

we had a holy priest like that for a while, easily one of the best I'd ever played with

just clowned on the rest of the raid healers

[keen dome]

A lot of the comedy of pugging is in the raid chat, so I think you'd need to have that visible. Which might make streaming harder, hm

[hexed sluice]

Pug healing is fun mid to late season if you are good cause you can just pop off and see how much you can solo heal

Same with tanking

Amirdrassil was fun for that with my casual guild,, cause both me and the other tank were geared to the teeth from m+.

And we'd just alternate weeks solo tanking

And one of us DPS, made reclears so much faster

[swift tinsel]

we juggle tanks too often for that to work well lol

I wish tho

[keen dome]

Hell yeah, solo tanking is a lot of fun

[junior prawn]

Guys who is excited to see aug evoker do more damage than sub tommorow ?

[keen dome]

Me, I think it'd be funny

[junior prawn]

at this point it will be funny

im past coping

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/hang-first-time-smiles-gif-14991372

[keen dome]

I propose a better gif for this

https://tenor.com/view/airplane-first-time-nervous-80s-movies-gif-19769548

[lilac stag]

Nah. That gives to much hope

[keen dome]

Right, but it's a comedy

Like Sub

[lilac stag]

Only comedy is the shock by people in here who haven’t gone to the rodeo yet

not my first rodeo maybe needs a google search for non NA folks

[serene notch]

Finally finished all my 12s, sub is comically underplayed and underperforming.

[keen dome]

Hell yeah, well done!

[serene notch]

I was surprised how easy it was to get into groups, maybe in that bracket people just don’t care too much.

[keen dome]

iLevel goes far at that level, imo.

[serene notch]

Which….still getting owned by my transmitter….I hate that pos so much

[keen dome]

Get the pvP badge!

it's comp stomp week

Or was.

[serene notch]

But my next best is stupid 2min priory thing

Yea I need to look into that

The amt of time transmitter spawns barrel in the shredder blades on pull one of flood is egregious

[misty dome]

man m stix progression suuucks

too random and too many bads

[young path]

Humbly hoping Fuu drops some updates to wowhead 🙂

Get’um!

[hollow spear]

Fuu knows that only the remaining three sub players would read it

[astral narwhal]

I’ll go and just refresh the page 1000 times so blizz might one day see us

[lofty lance]

any tips for Bandit Mythic? Going for first pull soon

any tech I should know

[hazy breach]

Hit adds

[lofty lance]

i remember someone said something about vanishing at a certain time

on ads

[viral phoenix]

hold your 1:30 flag for 10 seconds for the ads to spawn

u can hold vanish to use it if u get fixated so u can be in middle of ads

[lofty lance]

ok sweet ty bro ❤️

[viral phoenix]

also in general moving dances to when assistants are up gud

[worn ivy]

got benched today on AOB on world 5000 guild they wanted to play with assa instead

[slate marlin]

why dont u play assa then

[worn ivy]

i rather not play the game at all

than a playing dogsiht spec

[shut ridge]

holy based

[viral phoenix]

(basedbasedbased)

[worn ivy]

"based"

[swift tinsel]

fixed

[slate marlin]

says he who plays sub 😦

[worn ivy]

NOISESEEEEEEEE

put wthe sub icon and lashga 😄

[shut ridge]

i mean it absolutely does not matter at that level right

[worn ivy]

pleasew @swift tinsel

instead of my pic

subtlety icon and instead of eta gg

put lashga 😄

ajajaja

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/simpsons-homer-simpson-gif-13518564799186478937

my work is done

[worn ivy]

did 18 top as sub btw 😄

paggers

[alpine wraith]

big

[chrome lake]

still worth progging mythic as sub? so low on the charts 😦

[swift tinsel]

if you enjoy it

[keen dome]

Do you want to prog it as Sub? Play sub, imo.

[swift tinsel]

you aren't actively inting your raid by playing it

[chrome lake]

yeah i tried assa and was not liking it lol

[swift tinsel]

Sub is perfectly capable of downing any boss

Mugzee obv leans towards sin

but you can still play sub unless your raid is problematic

and in that case, not your fault lol

[chrome lake]

yeah just got rik dagger and definitely dont wanna not use it xD

[fiery pewter]

I just think Sub is cool. Secret Technique summons all of my friends

[swift tinsel]

Coolest spec in the game, just a bit undertuned atm

[spice matrix]

a bit

[swift tinsel]

just a few % aura buff and we're firmly middle of the pack

[vestal escarp]

https://tenor.com/view/monkeys-paw-paw-monkey-gif-17535679

[proven plover]

Dont worry guys, any day now Blizzard will remember our existence

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/i've-never-been-here-before-marshall-lawson-territory-it's-my-first-time-here-sam-corlett-gif-1587921523140068275

[tulip gorge]

maybe next season bro

buffing sub means to admit they were wrong to nerf it

and that's a no no

btw with the new ilvl increase, I assume sub will not scale as good other specs right

[swift tinsel]

I’ve said before I have zero expecting of buffs this season

[alpine wraith]

just need more good bugs

imagine if instead of our tier set randomly not applying

[tulip gorge]

they may do a tuning pass after the ilvl increase

[alpine wraith]

it applied twice

we will just get bodied by aug next week

then we will have more silly pictures

[slate marlin]

they would fix that bug in 11 hours max

[alpine wraith]

nah the db/dd bug stayed for like 7 months

also because we didnt even know

[tulip gorge]

you know what's funny

when sub complains about being undertuned, people say "you have 2 other good specs"

when one mage hero talent is worse than another

emergency buffs

all hero talents must be competitive

[lilac stag]

When sub rogues complain “MF. You knew this was coming. It’s inevitable.”

[young path]

Omg…. Scary because it’s true LOL

🤣

[vale pine]

haha ye

[tulip gorge]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/corruption-tuning-again-patch-11-1-5-horrific-visions-376737?utm_source=discord-webhook

we got tuning, but not the kind of tuning we wanted

[swift tinsel]

woooo

[graceful rock]

Does the shadow damage enchants open the door for deathstalker cringe?

[swift tinsel]

the way is shut

[tulip gorge]

I doubt anything other than class abilities is whitelisted

[frank narwhal]

On One-Armed Bandit, when adds spawn do you want to wait until adds start their fixate before deciding to vanish it, or is there a grace period just as they spawn where you can vanish and start blasting without them targeting you?

[wild hornet]

could be wrong but i think if youre in vanish you cant get picked

[shut ridge]

yes you can vanish just don't do it late or your friends will hate you

there's a nice weakaura floating around

[frank narwhal]

So only vanish as they start their fixate cast maybe, so it’s not too early which can cause a fixate on yourself, but not too late since that can fuck over another melee?

[shut ridge]

that's what I was essentially doing yeah

i used this as well: #subtlety message

[frank narwhal]

Ah, awesome! Thank you

[junior pewter]

@shut ridge Ipsa senpaii 🥀🥀🥀

[shut ridge]

hey babe

[random hare]

fun fact to all the sub enjoyers here

shadowstep isnt a teleport, it dashes you+an instant teleport right after

so if theres a mechanic infront of you and you shadowstep you can die

dont ask me how i know

[shut ridge]

shadowstep has griefed me more times than I'd care to admit this tier

and last

[plush roost]

Shadowstepping rookery lasors

Notlikethis

[lilac stag]

Beams on Locken

[slate marlin]

u still eat a lot of charges even if u ss behind mob

[void ocean]

What was that eye boss in Sanctum we shadowstepped

To jump over the beam

[worn ivy]

17 brew done

17 resi now couldve done more tbh

i accidently close all nameplates first pull 😄

[slate marlin]

mad feral

[fallow nimbus]

Anduin mythic with the 2 colours

Step other another one and boom goes the guy

[serene notch]

Workshop gauntlet 😄

[serene notch]

At this level, do you run with a consistent team and the pulls are timed relatively to your CDs? I feel like for my low level stuff in pugs my CDs often are misaligned with pulls.

[worn ivy]

i did all with pugs

not gonna line

only voice in priory and top 18

[serene notch]

Wow, does that player pool become small enough where it’s pretty much the same people?

[worn ivy]

kinda yea at some point

[wide kernel]

18top as sub?

what was your overall

[plush roost]

Top is a fairly good sub key, you also get to murder Xav even if you get sent down since u can send people right back upstairs

[wide kernel]

if you have cd's

im never downstairs with cd's

[plush roost]

You can always hold one dance between cd sets for downstairs

Its like every 45 seconds

[short radish]

yeah its kinda worth to hold dance

because either you get sent down and blow up the person

or you dont get sent down and you blow up the banner

SUB NICHE COMING IN STRONG

[worn ivy]

18 top overall was 3.53 but i died with cds on gorechop 2x jump

[hybrid prism]

I have a myth trashmaster and will lose .2% dps if I catalyze it. I hate that it changes my title so much. Should I do it so I dont have to deal with that shit?

if you catalyze it, it is mastery vers

[hexed sluice]

Honestly been thinking the same

[short radish]

title is worth 1% dps so yes

[hybrid prism]

I hate the title so much. I downloaded an addon that prompts me with a button in the middle of my screen to change my title to the preferred one when it changes it to trashmaster

[tribal blade]

yeah it's pretty annoying, i stopped using the cloak early on because of that reason

[tribal blade]

bro my computer completely locked up and i had to restart it on the last boss of 16 workshop

but we still timed it

because by the time i got back on and bres came back up we had enough time to kill the boss

luckily we had been destroying the key so we had enough time for them to 4 man most of the boss

[lilac stag]

rogue truely useful

[rocky ocean]

[wild hornet]

Does numbing poison affect gallywix's interruptable aoe

[tribal blade]

we are truly indispensable

[cloud rover]

Afkham

[tribal blade]

doing really big dam for the rest of the key paid off

[fringe palm]

Curse doesn't so I assume no, you could use it for the add casts but atrophic has more value

[placid crown]

Hello guys, back with an other question. I just read this in the wowhead article about assa rogue : "The most interesting part of Atrophic Poison is that it stacks in raids with multiple rogues."

Really ?

[short radish]

yes

(it's still not worth taking multiple rogues for)

[placid crown]

so, 10 rogues (i know it would be stupid) and the boss deals 36% damage less ?

[short radish]

i think it stacks diminishingly

but dont quote me on that

[placid crown]

ok ty, i'll investigate 🙂

[plush roost]

It is diminishing, so its 3.6% of 100, then 3.6% of 96.4, then 3.6% of 93.05, then 3.6% of 89.8...

[shy ermine]

That’s not diminishing, it’s multiplicative instead of additive

[plush roost]

Well, same thing different wording. Its a diminished return

[placid crown]

got it, tyvm

[shy ermine]

Diminishing is when you get less bang for your buck, like when you have enough of a stat its value is reduced when you get more of it (10% then 20% etc)

Multiplicative damage reduction is the same value, just the pie got a bit smaller

[plush roost]

Ye, ig so. You knew what i meant tho :p

[shy ermine]

Yeah I very nearly didn’t type it because everyone understood what you were saying and that’s the point of language in the first place 😂

[placid crown]

So, D = (100-3.6)^n with n = number of rogues

D = final part of damages from boss

or 1 - total reduction

let's say 2 tanks, 4healers, 14 rogues

mhh wait no that can't be the good formula

oh yes it is

result would be ~60%

""Full rogue"" raid and the boss deals 40% less damages

[vale pine]

can confirm, more rogeus = better

[placid crown]

è_é

isn't there like a max stack ?

[limpid sage]

(1-0.036)^n no?

[limpid sage]

Ye that’s what you wrote here mb

[placid crown]

oups yes, wanted to write (100-3.6)% ^n

[worn ivy]

Sneaky subtlety buffs maybe ??

[limpid sage]

Does anyone know if orc racial applies to sectec? The pet % dmg buff

I’m just thinking if Akaari’s Soul is what is applying it on logs, it might be coded as a pet?

[short radish]

raid also does 40% less damage so it's a net nill

[remote shuttle]

2/2/16 so? 16 rogues like - 45% raid damage taken ( half damage taken half healers) 🤣

[covert apex]

is trick way superior in m+?

[graceful crown]

overall

[covert apex]

Are you lowkey griefing if you use stalker in m+ as sub?

[graceful crown]

not as long as you're having fun

unless you're looking to go pro, doesnt matter what you play

[hazy breach]

Sounds difficult with deathstalker

[covert apex]

Honestly, i haven't really played sub for a long time

[graceful crown]

yeah, for me too, but mb he likes casting a st in aoe

[covert apex]

Since basically the rework, lost too much aoe

[graceful crown]

shame im kind of burnt out of this season already, got most of what i wanted from m+ so i havent even felt the bug fix yet

on flurry

[hazy breach]

Aoe is fine

Just overall the numbers are a bit low

[graceful crown]

i wish sub could play with fatebound instead of deathstalker

imagine how fun that'd be

[hazy breach]

Well the ideal way to play it is to not even proc darkest night by resetting it with strike on other targets

[graceful crown]

your burst windows would go crazy

[graceful crown]

maybe, i remember when it was better than trickster for a while, that was miserable for me

[plush roost]

You already get 3% from flawless stacks, trickster gives more % damage over fatebound lowkey

Burst windows would be more or less the same, maybe even less since u can hit cosmic a bunch

[hazy breach]

Yes trickster is way burstier than fatebound

[graceful crown]

fair

i just like the idea of flippin coins every evisc

[plush roost]

You can have upwards of 11-12 stacks of flawless if you get good thousand cut procs towards the end of your cds

15 if u proc coup twice

[graceful crown]

whats your highest crit on sectec during burst

mine went up to like 9 mil

that was so satisfying

on lockensmith mythic

[plush roost]

Idk, if we're counting all clones probably like 33m

[graceful crown]

ah i meant apart

it was like 3x9mil

[plush roost]

Yummy

[graceful crown]

yeaaaaa

went up to like 7 mil burst dps

and then the dreaded downtime to just backstab

[plush roost]

Welcome to sub lol

[graceful crown]

i love it tho

it's the most rogue out of the 3 specs for me

i love the idea of an ambush burst assassin

scratches the itch i've had for wow rogue for a while

trickster makes it feel more like that rather than shadow ninja wizard gang

[tribal blade]

welcome to the club

now to suffer alongside us 🙂

[graceful crown]

i've been suffering since bfa, my friend

i played sub rogue in bfa

[tribal blade]

if you want to be a part of the sub gang, you gon suffer

[graceful crown]

and unpopular opinion

[plush roost]

The club has 3 members, everyone else went to assa (including me)

[graceful crown]

i miss the shadow dot

instead of rupture

[tribal blade]

nightblade had a cool visual

cool icon and name

for sure

[plush roost]

Nightblade was cool in nighthold when it was actually a long dot and not 16 seconds long

[tribal blade]

16 sec dot is kinda aids

[plush roost]

Yeee

[graceful crown]

dude, sub during bfa was probably the lowest low sub has ever had

ngl

and i still loved it

[tribal blade]

yeah it was really bad

[graceful crown]

your best corruption was mastery enchants, LOL

[plush roost]

Idk my guild dissolved after ghuun and i quit cause my friends all blew up and left :/

[graceful crown]

everyone else with their shiny twilight devastations and shit and you're there dying to an eye for 60% mastery

[tribal blade]

i quit bfa for a year just because of what they did to sub 🙂

[vale pine]

legion/bfa ended up very one sided with spec choice

[idle storm]

iam a good assasin rogue will it be hard to learn sub rogue is it that diffrent ?

[heady dragon]

learn the burst Sequence which is kinda set in stone, and thats it tbh

[tribal blade]

hard to say, you get a lot of seasoned rogues saying sub is simple now

but i hear a lot of newer players struggling

[random hare]

If ur an overall good player sub is extremely easy

Just requires knowledge

[tribal blade]

most of the issue comes from doing the burst rotation correctly and then managing cds between then to make sure you have enough dance + symbols for you next cd set

[idle storm]

i see

[tribal blade]

if you want to compare it to the brain dead specs it for sure has more going on

[hazy breach]

The difference between a lot of other specs is that you can have symbols, sectech and dance ready

But the ideal play is still to not use them

Until blades and flag is ready in 10s

[winter python]

That's my biggest problem with Sub

[tribal blade]

yeah not being able to fire off cds on cd a big thing with sub

[winter python]

That and having SecTech no CB keybind and a SecTech + CB Keybind

[graceful crown]

i still think that out of the 3 rogue specs it is the most difficult for someone new, assassin plays itself and outlaw is just a button spam

with sub you have sequences you gotta follow and cds to manage

but it is a lot simpler than b4

which is a good thing cuz we dont have a super long opener b4 start of burst

[tribal blade]

i think outlaw's speed inherently makes it a bit difficult

[graceful crown]

we still need a lot of build up but not nearly as much as b4

[graceful crown]

i dont know, it's quite simple for me

[tribal blade]

i haven't played outlaw since DF so i can't say for sure

[graceful crown]

but i do die a lot to killingspree

so

mb im not the best to comment on that

[tribal blade]

lol that's just outlaw shenanigans right now

it's not exactly like you can sit on KS for long periods of time

so you gotta just send

and live with the consequences

[slate marlin]

Sub is rly easy once you get down the opener perfectly

[honest void]

[graceful crown]

that's the learning curve tho, and 1 mess up can cost your entire burst

[random hare]

Outlaws can suck my balls

[graceful crown]

i still sometimes press dance on 1 sec b4 its off cd and it kills my whole drive

[keen dome]

Yeah. I think Sub is complex but not hard. Once you learn the rules, it's very straight forward but the initial learning experience can be quite difficult for some people, or come very naturally. So: complex. But not hard.

Just gotta practice and get a feel for the rules, the moment-to-moment decisions.

Knowing the why of it is important 'cos then you can easily figure it all out on the fly.

[heady dragon]

thats a general rogue thing imo

[keen dome]

Sure, but we're in the Sub channel!!!

Also Outlaw hurts my hands so my opinion is Outlaw is impossible to play

[tribal blade]

i started getting annoyed trying to keep up with outlaw's speed while playing at 200ms

[leaden prairie]

Button spam but you can't press the wrong button

[tribal blade]

the spell queueing is hell

[leaden prairie]

Yes yes

[leaden prairie]

Honestly I have 150 Ms on ptr and it's not THAT bad

Just have to get used to it

[keen dome]

Ye, I think that's true for me and Outlaw in general. Practice and getting used to it goes so far.

[tribal blade]

150 feels like heaven compared to 200 /cry

[leaden prairie]

50 more

Wdym

[keen dome]

just develop future sight

[leaden prairie]

[tribal blade]

you can feel that difference for sure

but yeah it's mostly fine

it's just once in a while you accidently spell queue say a builder instead of a finisher

or some other bs

and those add up over time

[lilac stag]

Assa is complex?

[keen dome]

I think it can be, yeah. It's all going to be subjective, imo.

[lilac stag]

I mean you can pretty much do any order of operations and still perform. Granted that’s just means forgiving, but the more forgiving it is the actual complexity becomes non-existent since it doesn’t matter.

[random hare]

[vale pine]

it always comes down to what you compare it to

assassiantion is rocket science compared to probably ret, dev or similar almost one button classes

[brittle plinth]

Is dev that easy?

[graceful crown]

i always say assassin is the ret/bm of rogue

[brittle plinth]

I remember reading the wowhead guide and thinking, this looks intense

[lilac stag]

Dev gives you a whole lot of thinking time

[graceful crown]

st dev evoker is like level 11 shadow priest

you just hold mindflay/dis

after you apply your 2 dots

[tribal blade]

my guild has someone who will play whatever spec is fotm that is braindead easy in raid

right now he's playing dev

[lilac stag]

So the solution to have rogue gain a playerbase is to take outlaw and turn in back to classic era speed and difficulty.

[tribal blade]

he gave up trying to play sin because it was too punishing he said

[lilac stag]

[tribal blade]

"you have to press your buttons in the precise order or your dps is screwed"

i didn't realize this was such a unique concept to just rogue

[vale pine]

you would be surprised

a lot of people want outlaw to go back to combat

[lilac stag]

I’m joking but also serious

[tribal blade]

oldschool combat was bm/ret levels of stupid 😦

[lilac stag]

I do think rogue would get a lot more players if outlaw was legit old school combat

[graceful crown]

man, honestly, as long as i can use daggers again

[vale pine]

haha

don't you remember snake eyes?

[lilac stag]

Let me use 1h as sub

[vale pine]

(a azerite trait, which made the optimal play to use 2 daggers)

[graceful crown]

that was a thing?????

[lilac stag]

That got nerfed pretty quickly iir

[graceful crown]

i hated outlaw for the rng factor tbh

i cant stand roll the bones

im upset i missed it now

[lilac stag]

We’ve had some absolute degen gameplay over the years

which makes me wonder if rogues are just that much better at finding degen gameplay over other classes or if it’s just a byproduct of shit class design.

[shadow lance]

Most broken state I've seen on rogue

[honest void]

Yes

[shadow lance]

Rogue players are just degen

[honest void]

Is the answer to that

[graceful crown]

have you not heard of the legendary dual dagger fury player?

sims showed daggers on a fury warrior were doing ridiculous amounts of dps

and bro went absolutely feral

theorycrafting

[lilac stag]

warrior TC in the official discord are certainly interesting. Their non-sponsored TC server is much better

[graceful crown]

ngl, when it comes to warrior, the gameplay is soooooooooooooo fucking boring, that even i started doing off meta shit to keep me interested

fury is so lame, i just started doing smf annihilator builds out of spite

annihilator turned your raging blows into stronger aas

[lilac stag]

this is the sever that removed rend from the apl only for one of the liquid warriors to call them out and it turns out that rend was in the apl behind a paywall

[graceful crown]

and generated more rage

[void ocean]

more boring than bleed build boss fight 😄

?

[graceful crown]

huh? are we still talking warrior here

i do not touch assassination unless i feel ranover, tired as fuck, and dont want to play a key but i know i have to, so i afk press random buttons and it works

[heady dragon]

rogue overall is yes

rogue is a class that is less ultra straightforward then most others

[leaden prairie]

sounds like the most fake shit ever

is that real

[tulip gorge]

rogue has a lot of min-max stuff that is not obvious

[tulip gorge]

we are spoiled with how good the rogue theorycrafters are

I remember during DF beta the hunter theorycrafter would hide sims behind paywall

or in shadowlands they would sandbag extremely hard by not using the legendary bow in sims

[heady dragon]

ye, thats kinda my point

and also like, more things where multipe effects interact with eachother

like, on assa, look at Deathmark as a CD and compare it with 90% of other cds in the game

[slate marlin]

What???

Azortharion did that?

[heady dragon]

the gameplay itself? if you get into it its never really that bad on all 3 spec, but there is a hurdle you have to get over first

[tulip gorge]

one cool thing about rogue is how each spec plays differently from each other

I like the variety a lot

[zenith prism]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[slate marlin]

Yep, same, just wished it was easier to swap from assa/sin to outlaw, kinda hard to make room for a 1h sword early season

[tulip gorge]

thankfully you need only 1 onehander

[heady dragon]

i mean yeha

[tulip gorge]

you can use dagger as off weapon

[heady dragon]

assa + any spec works 200% fine

cus assa only cares about trinkets really

[void ocean]

it usually cost us at least one spec being garbanzo

[silver tundra]

Sub does crazy damage. I parsed 1.65m on heroic vexie at 633 ilvl

[void ocean]

whos gonna tell him 😄

[silver tundra]

Also reading icy veins it sounds like single target is same as multi with 7 or less targets. That's smooth

[tulip gorge]

that's how it is if you have multiple dps specs

unless you're a mage

then you need emergency buffs

[silver tundra]

What I miss!!!

[void ocean]

every 3-dps-spec class should have at least one of those specs deleted

[tulip gorge]

why

[void ocean]

thats where the fun stops more less

[silver tundra]

ohhh 😦

[void ocean]

we were kings of normal/hc raiding in the first 2 weeks

tfd was mad 😄

[lilac stag]

Rend literally wasn’t in the apl

[shell bramble]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[silver tundra]

Ok so I should go assass

Wonder if it's an early rotation

[void ocean]

depends

[tribal blade]

nah sub actually has use in raid

[lilac stag]

or if someone tries to help that isn’t one of their own, they pretty much just ignore it even when you code it

[tribal blade]

but at this rate we won't

[heady dragon]

kinda based, fuck rend

[tulip gorge]

to make other specs not get their attacks parried

[tribal blade]

t r u e

[lilac stag]

Next week Aug goes over

and 35% buff to BP

[tribal blade]

we'll see!

not sure if they will because of how dominant dev is

why would you want to suffer playing aug

[lilac stag]

there will be some

[tribal blade]

when you can top the meters not thinking with dev

[lilac stag]

Why is everyone not playing assa in keys?

same logic.

[tribal blade]

a lot of people are 😉

[lilac stag]

not everyone

there will be Aug

[tribal blade]

it looks like sin as the highest M+ scores atm

[lilac stag]

I’d laugh my ass off if they have more logs than sub next week

[heady dragon]

its rogue

there is not "a lot of people"

[tribal blade]

i meant more so a lot of rogues are playing sin

[heady dragon]

[tribal blade]

but yeah there are no rogues

i see a decent amount queued up in lfg though

this was from a 16 flood i timed earlier

beating udk WOOOO

just barely

[slate marlin]

Pretty good dps overall

[heady dragon]

padgate

[tribal blade]

you say pad, but i say doing over 100mil more boss dam to big momma than the other 2 dps 🙂

[slate marlin]

What about dmg to last 2 bosses

also saying its pad

when theres a uh dk

[hollow spear]

That depends on if he played bleed or the kb cook

[lilac stag]

@keen dome someone taking your game.

[keen dome]

Good, good!!!

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/good-evil-star-wars-emporer-palpatine-darkside-gif-4624104

[void ocean]

-knock, knock

• whos there?
• not a sub buff...

[tribal blade]

it would be so funny if we got a crazy over compensation buff later

but i highly doubt it

[lilac stag]

S4

When it don’t matter

[tribal blade]

will there be a S4 in tww? i hear conflicting things

i thought they weren't doing it this time

but maybe i'm wrong

[lilac stag]

Probably not. Exactly why sub gets buffed then.

[tribal blade]

HAHA fair enough

[swift tinsel]

it depends on when they wanna drop midnight

[native zodiac]

Our buff will be on ptr

To be nerfed week 1

[swift tinsel]

if its fall 2026 then we're prob getting an s4

if they opt for spring we're free of Fated bs

[tribal blade]

iirc they said something about wanting tww to be 3 seasons

[swift tinsel]

that'd be the better play imo

[tribal blade]

and that should be their expac cycle from now on

[swift tinsel]

It'd have to be a late spring/early summer xpac release unless they want s3 to last a year

since it drops this summer

oh nvm it could just come out this fall

got the roadmap jumbled in my memory

[keen dome]

I wouldn't be shocked if we get a fated, but who knows. We know we are getting a Legion remix (or a remix of some kind) between S3 and Midnight so. I dunno.

My guess is a longer S3 instead of fated

[rocky ocean]

[keen dome]

But who knows

[haughty mural]

Id rather not have Legion Remix and a faster midnight

Even though I loved Legion to the core

[void ocean]

wait, u mean s3 will be fated?

[tribal blade]

nah i think blizz's intention is to have no fated season in tww

[void ocean]

dang

i liked fated

it allowed me to take a break from raiding for a few months without feelin guilt

[keen dome]

I don't think faster anything is good for the game at this point

I'd rather they take their time

[rocky ocean]

like they did in draenor

or in sl

[swift tinsel]

with how rushed the content patches have felt so far this xpac, I def agree

[void ocean]

sl seasons were pog

[swift tinsel]

and by rushed I mean unpolished

[void ocean]

u get to raid 3-4 months

u get to have a break for 2 months

come back refreshed

[cloud rover]

Sepulcher

was definitely not 3-4 Months

[limpid sage]

I swear that guy has a new name every time someone writes it xd

[cloud rover]

Probably killed Halondrus after the first 3 months

Or Anduin

[honest void]

Or ur guild died

Whichever came first really

[graceful crown]

oops LOL

forgettable guy, what can i say

[vale pine]

yes, you also only used i think snd as a finisher

is why it was nerfed quickly

[graceful crown]

blizzard when multiple builds are viable instead of only 1 l

[vale pine]

it was stupid

[honest void]

i mean it rewarded you for spending cp on snd and roll the bones

most braindead trait

[vale pine]

because you did not use your damage finisher

[graceful crown]

oh

wtf

lol

[vale pine]

it was def. a weird design choice

[honest void]

it put the sinister in sinister strike

blade in the shadows was another interesting one

[graceful crown]

is it weird that i find subtlety so much less fun if gloomblade is meta?

i hate gloomblade

removes the most fun thing about sub, having a reason to stand behind the boss

[honest void]

ur not forced to be in front with gloomblade though?

[graceful crown]

nope, but it doesnt have the bonus damage from behind

:(

[vale pine]

current iteration is fun to play

there are some rough edges but well

[lilac stag]

Backstab as the main dmg in any form is shiet

[graceful crown]

true

i kind of really like the classic version where it's like mortal strike LOL

[haughty mural]

What is enjoyable about the behind requirement is beyond me
But I highly agree that backstab as main dmg in any form is shiet

[graceful crown]

ye

[graceful crown]

idk, positioning gameplay is kind of fun

[haughty mural]

Ok

[swift tinsel]

boss/mob parry is antiquated, same with backstab positional requirement

if they're removing parry from specific abilities, why have it at all

[short radish]

Sprocket, mugzee and gallywix say fuck you

[graceful crown]

well, i say backstab is fun yet again imagine backstab on a boss like helya or w/e where they never turn your back at you

[solemn lance]

Subtlety Rogue Mid-Expansion Retrospective - Hero Talents, Current Issues & Season 3 Wishlist_

• We just wish you knew we existed

[graceful crown]

they've been haters for a while

[short radish]

I love losing find weakness on sprocket

That's so much fun

[haughty mural]

Yea fun

On our first kill of vexxie iirc raidlead also wanted us to stay in front of the boss

[vestal escarp]

not sure if the geargrinder parries and has front/back

[haughty mural]

Iirc it did have a front

[hollow plinth]

no secret sub rogue buffs sry fellas

(Tuning was just shipped to live servers)

[vestal escarp]

it's alright this way

dw

if anything should apologize in sin chat

[haughty mural]

As expected

[vestal escarp]

they deserved more

[vale pine]

thanks for the heads up

[keen dome]

[hazy breach]

As expected, they probably think the bugfixes they forgot to apply would be enough

[lilac stag]

imagine thinking we’re broken. Bunch of negative Nancy’s in here.

[rocky ocean]

[haughty mural]

Be thankful we were good in prog a month ago

[lilac stag]

https://giphy.com/gifs/btqU9V0Z48j3in2xBu

[vestal escarp]

most guys still killed mug and gally as sin

so yeah

prog cope

[lucid jackal]

Well that's because sin is like, one of the best mugzee specs in the entire game

[haughty mural]

Summoned him with that

[vestal escarp]

sorry sorry guy didnt mean to bait

pretende thats not there

i'd delete but it would be bm

[haughty mural]

[lilac stag]

[woeful storm]

how come

[uncut shuttle]

would any kind soul be down to do some log review?

[lilac stag]

is it still with push times?

[lilac stag]

Use !log

[lucid jackal]

Only part of the fight that matters is p2, spatter goes thru walls

[uncut shuttle]

!log

[crystal bone]

don't we have the best execute in the game atm?

or tied with warrior

as sin, sorry wrong channel kek

[lilac stag]

i guess we call this a win

GV gonna make me drop 2 milli on a helm

[haughty mural]

Dw I’ll get helm in gv for us both tomorrow

[lilac stag]

excellent

[crystal bone]

surely they were like o shit guys we forgot sub

and threw it in last minute

before i check

right??

[keen dome]

what does your heart say

[crystal bone]

i can never understand my heart

[keen dome]

heart of the cards but it's a Sub rogue

[lilac stag]

#subtlety message

[crystal bone]

f

[hollow spear]

With the estimated aug changes, it might get close

[crystal bone]

we can officially doom when our spec is below the support spec

[delicate wind]

yea i just hung it up for now. so bad

[fiery pewter]

Playing ass is so ass though

[limpid sage]

never heard of this and I'm a fury refugee. What is it called?

(donno if it's against rules to ask for other discords)

[swift tinsel]

(yes you're under arrest)

[woeful storm]

TY

[sly shore]

assa on mug'zee is so funny how good it is

[lilac stag]

warbreaker https://discord.gg/JWjwxvjz

[grave shore]

Hope we’re next after augs
Next week

[lilac stag]

@keen dome @void ocean on reset. 36 minutes to get rep done in LFR on alt

[grave shore]

Or may be they’re thinking that +6 itlvl and corrupts will make sub +300k dps

[void ocean]

sounds like a Murica problem to me 😄

[lilac stag]

Someone was saying Normal was faster

Thought it was you, but I can’t recall

[haughty mural]

Should be

[void ocean]

we gotta be able to pull multiple bosses on lfr 😄

[open vortex]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[void ocean]

fck me if that wouldnt be a fun thing

rolling stix balls into rik barrels

dodging amplifiers

[vale pine]

nothing to see here, no statistical anomalies

[swift tinsel]

"Upcoming" and "changes", minor fixes

[keen dome]

Not bad, good to know!

[swift tinsel]

if that's going in the mid-expansion article

[hollow spear]

I beg

[fallow nimbus]

That mid expansion article should call out blizz for what they are

[crystal bone]

[void ocean]

is this about raid rep for buffs and cards?

[lilac stag]

Just timed my lfr run

[alpine wraith]

i will do 5 +10 today

gotta pad the metrics

[haughty mural]

Pog

All you

Brotherman

[shell willow]

Whats sick is that frost doesnt need a buff when arcane and fire are viable and strong.

They dont have an excuse for not buffing sub

[long marlin]

makes no sense, using that logic you could say assa is strong and therefore sub doesnt need a buff

[crystal bone]

all 3 mage specs have timed 19s

err 18s, idk about 19s

[swift tinsel]

yeah

a few fire mages have one 19 timed

same with frost

[lilac stag]

just wait for a sub rogue to find his friends 💰

19s inc for sub

[swift tinsel]

better make sure they don't log it this time

[fiery pewter]

I feel like Mage actually has a dev who plays Mage, not sure Rogues have one

[shut ridge]

brings me immense pain every single time I am reminded of this

[wispy bolt]

pls Aug beat sub pls Aug beat sub pls Aug beat sub

[lilac stag]

Still won’t get us buffed

[wispy bolt]

But it will be funny

[swift tinsel]

we're getting the WoD Demo treatment

[lilac stag]

Could be worse

Could be sub BFA treatment.

[swift tinsel]

what would they take from us now that combo is gone

inb4 sectech removed

[lilac stag]

trickster

[swift tinsel]

NO

god no

[wispy bolt]

When they do buff it’ll be to deathstalker and we will all quit right guys

[swift tinsel]

unless they plan on adding the good parts of trickster to base spec

which is a pipe dream and a half

[wispy bolt]

Blizzard has to realize by now that they fucked themselves by adding 2 hero trees. Double the work they already don’t do

[swift tinsel]

I mean yeah, it's def ambitious, but as something that's supposed to be evergreen it kinda needs that

[wispy bolt]

“Player choice” mfer I just want the highest dps one so there is no choice

[swift tinsel]

not saying they've done a good job with a lot of them

[delicate wind]

i hope the mid expac article for sub is a hate piece and slams them. u do u but ffs slam the fuq outta them

[swift tinsel]

if fuu goes on an angry tirade I'll resub

but it wouldn't help anything lol

blizz knows how we feel about sub but just don't do anything about it

and when they do, it's often incongruous with how a lot of us would like it to play out

[delicate wind]

oh so what would help then? praising how shit our class is?

it's so fun to not get invited to anything. we love it here

[keen dome]

nimble flurry

[wispy bolt]

Imma play deathstalker in all my keys this week to skew the stats

[delicate wind]

i should have swapped to Sin at the beginning of the season but im too far in now to cave to the stupid sin path i always get pushed down lol

[wispy bolt]

Sin is omega boring. I’ve tried for the past week to play in keys and I just hate it

Bleed build = tank boss damage

[delicate wind]

yea it's not fun at all. that's why i didnt want to do it

[wispy bolt]

Also shit doesn’t live long in 15s where I’m at.

So AOE isn’t that amazing either

Mega pulls quickly get to 2-3 left standing

[wicked urchin]

I'm gonna play sin on mugzee and then just cry

[lilac stag]

it does more thank tank dmg

you have 2 dms and 1 in execute every boss

and there aren't a ton of ST only bosses

[wispy bolt]

Keys. 3-5 every key

[fiery pewter]

Any time Blizzard brings up "player choice" I don't see how they think it will be anything but picking the highest dps. It is very rare for hero talents to be competitive with only a tiny handful of specs being like that. Personally I think the "hero" choices should have been entirely aesthetic, like your ability animations get changed to different colors and slightly different effects. Should have been known that it was going to be a cluster fuck trying to balance this stuff

[clever delta]

ez last day of HOF

[swift tinsel]

idk I play the hero tree that feels the least ass

like s1 I only played trickster in all content

[slate marlin]

My problem with hero talents is that they were designed when normal talent trees of some classes were screaming for reworks

[swift tinsel]

hero trees being aesthetic would have been pretty cool though

[wispy bolt]

One of our hero talents should be that SecTech gets the kyveza clone animation

[swift tinsel]

Should be that baseline imo

[delicate wind]

if our dps sucks can we at least look cool doing it?

[wispy bolt]

SecTech buff makes so much sense here. More burst in both AOE and ST

Bring back sub being THE burst spec

The CB+SecTech should frighten other classes watching details

[delicate wind]

u mean like how evokers spike the meters with their combo

[swift tinsel]

could revert the 5% nerf we got early in the season

but they won't

[delicate wind]

i wouldn't hate actual combos. inside our burst windows either

[hybrid prism]

literally no reason to nerf us

[delicate wind]

could be fun to give us actual combos that trigger another ability or dump cds

[hybrid prism]

we were only strong before tier sets and upgrading our trinket

[swift tinsel]

burst was 'too high' on ptr

[hybrid prism]

and now they have lest us to fucking rot

so stupid

[swift tinsel]

got a double whammy of winning streak stack and % per stack nerf

[hybrid prism]

they are so out of touch it hurts

I swear at least 80% of them don't play the game

[swift tinsel]

par for the course here

trick is to have zero expectations

[hybrid prism]

been like this since wrath

[swift tinsel]

and if you have any, make them extremely low

[hybrid prism]

It is honestly a joke at this point

[delicate wind]

i had zero expectations and still ended up disappointed

[alpine wraith]

they nerfed tier 3 times then buffed baseline

then nerfed sec tech

one of those is not like the others

[hybrid prism]

exactly

then they go and give ret a buff

it's a joke

[swift tinsel]

idk if we end up getting anything (which I doubt will be the case) it'll be a mini aura buff, or BP buff

with 11.1.7

sub is clearly not high priority

[delicate wind]

not priorty* fixed

[swift tinsel]

its not exactly new territory

[graceful osprey]

Is it bad that I want a backstab buff so that it at least feels good to press outside of CDs

[delicate wind]

i mean i want any buff so it feels good to even log in

but sure buff our non-burst. even though that won't do shit to our dmg unless it's massive

[swift tinsel]

If given the choice I'd rather have a higher ceiling and lower floor than vice-versa

but that's just me

[delicate wind]

so more burst window buffs which doesnt align with what you said lol

=]

[alpine wraith]

yes you just lost 10 dinocoins

actually make backstab 60 energy again

let the people feel the weight

[swift tinsel]

aura buff would improve burst and is more realistic than buffing burst specifically

esp after they sent targeted nerfs at sub burst specifically

[vale pine]

the problem was the pre season daa

data*

[swift tinsel]

for sure, it was heavily skewed towards giant burst windows

so they chopped it down

[vale pine]

someone thought that speedkills in a old raid has value for early tuning, and then send a nerf to secret

[graceful osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/ralph-wiggum-simpsons-hi-bye-gif-16529059407582436389

Me when I’m out of my burst and don’t want to screw up my next burst CDs

[swift tinsel]

changing/removing dance cdr would offer room to clean up the playspace of sub between burst windows

[graceful osprey]

As I’m stabbing the boss with a napkin

[swift tinsel]

or have a way to make the cadence of between-flag dances as more consistently flag - 1 dance - flag - 1 dance

or 2 dances between, idc which

[pastel rampart]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1235801443995357225/1364063173178687528/image0.jpg?ex=681b6c13&is=681a1a93&hm=412c7aea5cba6209949229a1fdf332f118eeb8c03d4eb2833413d05a585f24a3&

[swift tinsel]

actually 2 might be nicer for flex

[vale pine]

i don't think subtlety is in need of massive changes

it needs tuning

and quality of life changes

[swift tinsel]

yeah, I'm talking in a more zoomed-out sense vs how sub is at the moment

[vale pine]

also maybe don't have like 8-10 completely ded talents

[delicate wind]

sod and dance need better alignment since they are basically required to use together

[swift tinsel]

dead talents, weird pathing

little build diversity

[delicate wind]

give us an extra dance charge or something in the build options

[swift tinsel]

after reading the sin mid-xpac article it's pretty apparent how much more choice they have than us in that regard

which is a bit annoying but I think they're pretty spoiled compared to most specs in the game

[wicked urchin]

At least I'm still on the meters in my guild!

[vale pine]

the dance cdr trait needs another .1 or .2

this would give wiggle room for better dance handling and downtime

its just very tight for timing atm

so downtimes feel bad

[lilac stag]

FW and Dance CDR

Are the biggies

[swift tinsel]

FW def on the list

[lilac stag]

Dance CDR moreso

[graceful osprey]

When my guild switches to their alts and I top meters, feelsgoodman

[swift tinsel]

I'd just rather see it gone

and I'm on the fence between adding the .1 or .2 or giving dance fixed cd but shorter

[lilac stag]

The 10 ish useless talents in our tree doesn’t help

[pastel rampart]

not massive changes right just...
bug fixes to almost every interaction
a complete rework of a 0 synergy unplayable degenerate hero tree
maybe the change of 8-10 dead talents
some qol changes
and a bit of tuning
then its OK :D

[swift tinsel]

I can see the plus of both

[lilac stag]

I don’t think they’ll get away from CDR

Not without a rework

[vale pine]

exactly

[swift tinsel]

nah its too core at this point

[pastel rampart]

cdr isnt going away without a rework because it introduces a very degenerate "go do something irl" between cds minmax

or gloomblade becomes 20% of our dmg

[chrome palm]

Sub also makes decisions with talents like “which talent becomes useless?” Instead of “which talent becomes stronger?” When it comes to choosing between like improved shuriken or shadow focus

[swift tinsel]

or WM/TFD

[chrome palm]

Or to a lesser degree tfd vs weapon master

[vale pine]

just my personal opinion

but given that dev time is already low on subtelty

it would be easier to fix the problems than completely rework it

[chrome palm]

If only they changed goremaw and db position on the tree 😭

[swift tinsel]

I guess you'd have to look at the depth of 'problems'

[vale pine]

goremaw needs to be replaced

[swift tinsel]

because there's surface-level things for sure that could go a long way

[vale pine]

give me the sylvanas dagger effect

[sick sand]

shadow dance 1 charge and some 50 seconds on cd, flag coming up in 30-40 seconds, are we sending dance ?

[swift tinsel]

EoN would be lovely

[vale pine]

easy replacement

[swift tinsel]

universally loved

easy layup

I don't think a single person would argue with that replacement

as long as it isn't tuned like fatal intent

[hazy breach]

TFD is actually good though (assuming it actually works)

[pastel rampart]

depends on symbols and sectech

[lilac stag]

TFD just needs to be fixed

[vale pine]

tfd just needs the 6 sec timer removed

[lilac stag]

Which should be brought up

[vale pine]

and its a good talent

[lilac stag]

In the mid season

[hazy breach]

But perforated veins and shadow focus

Are horrendous

[lilac stag]

fix our gdamn shadow dmg

[hazy breach]

Barely above margin of error

[swift tinsel]

yeah if it wasn't as fucky to play around tfd would be the easiest choice over wm

[graceful osprey]

I liked goremaw’s bite better in legion

[chrome palm]

Symbolic victory

[pastel rampart]

i didnt like goremaws in legion or now

:D

[swift tinsel]

night terrors, pace, silent storm,

[chrome palm]

Choose between symbols giving you your worst stat or your second worst stat

[hazy breach]

Tfd is the easy choice always

[swift tinsel]

lingering shadow

[chrome palm]

I feel like silent storm is only bad because it’s so far away by itself

And the rotten does the same thing

[hazy breach]

Only exception is pure st fight thats longer than 5 minutes

Or if the opener is irrelevant

But for keys its never wm

[swift tinsel]

yeah which at this point is barely any fight ever

[hazy breach]

Veiltouched, lingering shadows, perforated veins could all be reworked, changed or drastically buffed to be cooler

[swift tinsel]

that right area though and tornado need a look though

[hazy breach]

And goremaw like you said

Tornado could def use a ER/bonespike type rework

[lilac stag]

Tornado should just be the rupture spread assa didn’t want during beta

[swift tinsel]

'your next bp spreads rupture to up to x targets

[pastel rampart]

uhuh and then they just add torghast version of veinripper

and we BURST

[vestal escarp]

Just up replicating to 7 additional

[swift tinsel]

lmao

[young path]

Oh please for the love of god make that happen!

[swift tinsel]

tfd on combat drop

plz Mr. John Blizzard

inb4 they make tfd a choice node with premed

[manic sierra]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[wild hornet]

i usually do

depending on fight

[proper latch]

Will fuu make sub "mid-expansion retrospective"?

[delicate wind]

mid expansion flame

[proper latch]

Mid expansion tears

[rocky ocean]

[warm depot]

make the visuals kyveza visuals and im a happy camper until im not topping charts again

[lilac stag]

@vale pine the word good better not be used once in mid expansion recap.

[keen dome]

I hope there is good disussion on the strength of Sub in it

by which I mean: purple

[proper latch]

Spec does not have enough purple

Also the spec does not have enough "shadow" in talent names

[north schooner]

https://tenor.com/view/im-leaving-im-off-gif-9579167

[upper narwhal]

Guys my uncle works at blizzard, here are the Sub patch notes

Symbols of Death renamed to Shadows of Death
Black powder buffed by 10%

hope you enjoy!

[proper latch]

Shadow powder

[wide kernel]

did fazed bug actually get fixed?

[swift tinsel]

no, unless it was fixed today

haven't been able to check

[haughty mural]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[wide kernel]

when we are saying that the tfd timer is really strange what does that actually mean

[swift tinsel]

it doesn't always trigger consistently

[wide kernel]

all i ever see is that the timer doesn't start until like 4s until after combat ends

but then also you see it count down while attacking a mob, is what i have seen, is there any interaction with vanish or

[north schooner]

the best part is when you stand in narnia to keep the timer from resetting and then it resets with 0.5s left. Why they didn't just make it activate on combat drop or vanish is beyond me

[wide kernel]

i want to see if there's any meaningful interaction with shadowmeld but there's like a 7 or 8% dps decrease

[lilac stag]

something something pvp

[wide kernel]

it does seem pretty odd lol

[shut ridge]

i am once again begging blizzard to delete pvp

[wide kernel]

i was sitting at a target dummy in dornagal, it will literally reset with rupture on the target if you aren't hitting the dummy

[north schooner]

tfd already behaves differently in pvp, I don't see why they couldn't go one step further

[wide kernel]

are there any known conditions for tfd or?

[vale pine]

you mean like how long you should wait for it?

2-3 sec is worth it usually

[lilac stag]

That would mean they spend more than 2 minutes looking at the way the spec actually operates on live.

[wide kernel]

Like do I not need to attack something to be constantly considered out of combat, In Stealth or what

[hybrid prism]

who knows, sometimes it starts correctly, sometimes it doesn't work, lmao

[vale pine]

you need to wait 6 sec out of combat

[hybrid prism]

allegedly

[north schooner]

sometimes the timer doesn't start immediately yeah, it's not clear why. Combat status has always been wonky so it's not a surprise

[limpid sage]

Does Disorienting Strikes’ ignoring of Unseen Blade cd get removed on boss pull?

[hazy breach]

No

[delicate wind]

sometimes i'll be stealth and it still won't start. sometimes it restarts when someone else hits a mob and you're too close even in stealth. it's v wonky

[limpid sage]

Damn that’s pretty sick

[fallow nimbus]

What if we could trigger it with vanish?

Like why isn't that a thing when outlaw and assa have stuff for vanish?

Everything for dance should just be changed to stealth in general

[alpine wraith]

yea tfd with vanish would be nice

problem is we would run 2 vanish again and people would mald

also they really did nerf void ritual again

so now every corruption enchant sucks the same

for real ahahahaha

[swift tinsel]

Hey those 2% gains are maaaassive

[north schooner]

if they gave sub -30s on vanish along with that change then it would align properly with blades with just 1 charge. But at that point using vanish for anything else would feel bad

[fallow nimbus]

I got my sub r1 carapace in nyalotha with the power of tentacles

[alpine wraith]

i got some r1 with the power of love and mastery

and praying for crits

[mint swift]

Subs good in top right

[hollow spear]

Yes

[mint swift]

Kk

Just checking as i saw one on ToP and he seemed decent

3rd dps but decent :P

[sly shore]

Assa is just flat out better though

[mint swift]

Fair

Was an arcane/sub 4 man premade and i beat both as BM without consumes

Just salty

because mge was whining that i wasn't Bloodlusting

[alpine wraith]

sub would be better in top because of speedshroud

but idk

you would need a group that actually cares about that for time

[mint swift]

We did that yea

[final holly]

Sin cranks the bosses in top

You get insane funnel

Last run I did I got nearly 5m DPS first boss and 3m DPS in gorechop