subtlety

[keen dome]

Not surprised

Can't wait for it to die out the same way Bitcoin and NFT's did 'cos it's the same terrible grift tech

[jaunty heath]

I don’t think bitcoin died

But the rest of your point stands

It’s not even real AI if we take the term for granted

[keen dome]

It died in so much that it fell out of public perception. It didn't go away forever (Not as hard as NFT's have lmao) but like. It's not the craze it was at the time. You are right, though.

[jaunty heath]

NFTs must be the biggest publicly accepted scam we’ve seen in forever

In my case in my lifetime

[keen dome]

Yeah

There was a really funny image from a load recently where their hosting just went offline

So the person now owns.. an error message

Really funny

[jaunty heath]

BoredApeYachtClub

Damn crazy times

People put these as their pfp as a flex and got mad when people just used their picture

[keen dome]

It was very funny

[swift tinsel]

To this day I still don’t understand the nft hype lol

[keen dome]

It was a grift

[swift tinsel]

I figured as much

[keen dome]

Same as all the Crypto craze, really.

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I never bought into any of that stuff because it just seemed like a really easy way to lose a lot of money bc of how arbitrary it was

[jaunty heath]

I feel like crypto at least has a use, even tho that use arguably doesn’t matter for the vast majority but there is something

NFTs had virtually no use

Anyways

Where’s the real armin btw? He still on the challenger grind or?

[keen dome]

Yeah, NFT's have no use. Crypto and Blockchain has theoretical uses but they're so poisoned I doubt we'll ever see it properly used.

[alpine wraith]

most of the money i made wth nfts and crypto were thx to clueless people

but it was cool to get kinda free cash

and real armin is farming hard in league yes

[vale pine]

idk how i feel about "free moeny" it feels very scammy

but also everyone who invested knew ^^

[slate marlin]

@worn ivy me telling dh i swapped to sub after 2nd boss, dh telling me to just play sub entire dungeon bc u are good with it

[brittle plinth]

The only remotely plausible real-world usecase I recall was for shoe collectors, to cut down on the shipping of product, they would be housed somewhere centrally with ownership tied to the specific NFT.

All that being said, could also be done with a database which could have actual fraud-remediation.

[placid tendon]

Have you tried simming it without the gcd penalty? Sorry if this was already asked.

[vale pine]

the one before that was without

moment, ill seach it

[brittle plinth]

I'm just here for the one week it's overtuned

And it blows up

[placid tendon]

you'll be here for a while

[vale pine]

but its ~10% better

5-10%

also if you remove trinket, racial and potion use

we are more like 50% worse than the baseline

[placid tendon]

% better than the 1600 or 2550?

[vale pine]

#subtlety message

^ without the gcd penalty

[placid tendon]

for some reason it still shows me the old pic in pinned, dont know why

ah nvm, its a different post

[brittle plinth]

You think blizz isn't gonna let something slip one time?

[placid tendon]

seems unlikely in this case

[worn ivy]

ohh thats man what is he saying we bad in all dungeon 😄

[slate marlin]

he didnt want me to swap after 2nd boss

in rookery

just to play sub entire dungeon

[worn ivy]

but tbh sub is ok

in rook

[slate marlin]

yeah but i havent done entire dungeon as sub in a whike

i can play sub after 2nd boss quite comfortably

[hazy breach]

As long as you dont send sectech on first boss when he is in the air

[worn ivy]

yea

[hazy breach]

[worn ivy]

dont use sectech

when boss is in the middle

but managing cds on that boss

is kinda yikes

[slate marlin]

ye

idk im just extremely more comfortable swapping after 2nd boss

clones on 1st boss are a joke ye

[steep raven]

Does Evasion and Feint Elusiveness DR stack? (Non Aoe DR)

[alpine wraith]

yea but multiplicatively

so instead of 40% dr it is a bit less

[twilit phoenix]

If it was additive that would be so based

[steep raven]

36% is not far from 40%, nice

[steep raven]

Thanks

[vernal grotto]

I'm really struggling with Subtlety lately and I want to get back to enjoying it again, I feel like I must be missing something or doing something wrong. Bosses and sustained fights it works great, but going from small pack to small pack I just have run out of any power. I feel like I only really get to damage during Shadow Dance windows, and if the packs don't line up timing wise with Shadow Dance still up, I spend more time waiting out of the burst window waiting for it than in it, and it ends up being a bit painful where a small pack of 3 weenie mobs is harder than a boss. I feel like I must be missing something, so tips helpful plz

[tepid trellis]

outside of shadow dance windows

you do very very very little dmg

so its just all about pacing your charges right

[vale pine]

^ cooldown management and having pulls line up decently well with your cooldowns is important

[vernal grotto]

I'm not really sure how without presuming some kind of perfection the game can't afford—if I'm fighting a pack and it doesn't have much health left and I'm out of my burst window, I feel like my options are either (1) pop SD as soon as it gets back up to finish off the pack, in which case I won't have anything left for the start of the next pack, or (2) do extremely low damage through the end of this fight and focus on surviving since the enemy is out-DPSing me so I can save the CDs for the next fight. Unless I'm a missing a third option on this

[hazy breach]

Pull the remainder of the first pack into a new pack

But yeah this is what subtlety is about

[leaden plover]

due for a rework 🙂

[hazy breach]

you cant have big burst without low damage outside of it

[abstract forge]

Hi. One question. Is there a big difference if I activate Symbol of Death first and then Shadowdance or do it the other way around?

[leaden plover]

blizzo hates burst specs

[vernal grotto]

I think the philosophy of big burst window and low burst window outside it can hold true but I do still think it probably needs a rework to feel a little less punishing for error

[slate marlin]

i dont think dance cdr works tbh

at least not with current cdr tuning, feels likr having 0 breathe window between cds

[vale pine]

the cdr on dance should be a bit higher

its very tight

there are also a lot of qol changes which would be nice to have

[vernal grotto]

I miss Subterfuge being more accessible as a talent to give some forgiveness

[hexed sluice]

this explains so much

[wild hornet]

14% wipe on stix

sadge

yeah kezan sims higher - but in a fight like stix would it make more sense to use the spare keys trinket for like bombshell drops?

or still kezan due to dps difference outside of the marign of error

[lofty lance]

are we doing less ST dmg now or am I tripping

[alpine wraith]

others are doing more most of the time

[trail ginkgo]

/1stats

!stats

[wicked jolt]

The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simming your gear through Top Gear.
Mastery >= Versatility > Critical Strike > Haste

[jaunty heath]

Im feeling like this rn

Something ain’t right

[wild hornet]

same

[jaunty heath]

I did more damage last raid than this

It also feels like I don’t have the combo point gen I normally have?

[keen dome]

Wouldn't be shocked if we've gotten a new bug in something.

[molten citrus]

is your renown bugged?

[jaunty heath]

nope

[molten citrus]

that wouldn't have anything to do with combo points tho so idk

[jaunty heath]

and i really feel dry which also results in the damage loss

(we have a shaman yes)

[molten citrus]

not sure then

wasn't there a small beneficial bug on sub? maybe that got fixed

something with shadow tech

[hazy breach]

Not fixed, still gives 2x the energy during symbols with shadowcraft

Like shadowcraft says its +1 extra cp but in the code theyve just doubled the effect instead

Idk shouldnt be any changes, the only thing that was changed was the nibmle not hitting dead targets thing, but that shouldnt matter in raid

[jaunty heath]

Okay so

I took off my gear

and put it back on

back to normal

idk what the fuck that has to do with cps

[hazy breach]

[jaunty heath]

but it worked

[keen dome]

Maybe it was uncomfortable

[jaunty heath]

Idk, maybe EU Servers tripping, Eazmode is EU afaik having the same problems

[molten citrus]

yeah i was only speculating

[jaunty heath]

@lofty lance try taking your gear off and putting it back on worked for me idk

[dusk nest]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[dusk nest]

Should I use the talents for M+ of the spreadsheet dungeonslice or wowhead guide?

[fleet hearth]

hi everyone, i was looking at the different guide (wowhead, icy veins etc) but i couldn't find how Secret Tech AoE works ? Is it around the target or around us or something else ? Also, same question for Nimble furry talent if you know

[vale pine]

its around the player

but the initial hit applies the 2nd attack

so you can move out of melee after the initial hit and still hit with clones

[fleet hearth]

ok so positionning matters when you're about to ST

[vale pine]

yes

[fleet hearth]

ty !

[wispy bolt]

Over-under on tuning this reset?

[vale pine]

no tuning

[hazy breach]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/316923750073499648/1368050384333180938/image.png?ex=6818c9f4&is=68177874&hm=f164499b79c8a56e7f578075a20a7c45ed22617badd796a8e86c4954ed00ab32&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1042&height=536&
Only specs with the plus besides them are getting buffs

[wispy bolt]

Is the 15% aug buff enough to make them perform better than sub?

[hazy breach]

Its like +5% total for them

So on some bosses yes

[wispy bolt]

Clown world

[upbeat cradle]

when people type resi in their keys, what does that mean ?

[tepid trellis]

according to saeldur they might actually be back

[brave moth]

No please

no

just no

[hazy breach]

Ye current logs are underperforming since theyre just so weak nobody even bothers with them

[brave moth]

So you are telling me there is a world tha aug might be able to do more dps than sub rogue on ST ?

[lucid jackal]

Aug isn't going to be back because dev is literally the best spec in the game

[brave moth]

give em time

[lucid jackal]

Literally doing midnight dps

[brave moth]

with the rate they are buffing it

[winged prawn]

resilient Keys, so they cant deplete

[hazy breach]

Idk why that would be horrific, but yes

[brave moth]

so a "support" spec is doing more dmg than sub ?

[wispy bolt]

It’s a support class so that’s horrific

[dusty totem]

Well it is a dmg spec

[hazy breach]

Its a dps spec

That does its damage by supporting

[dusty totem]

and the support it gives is reattributed to itself

[hazy breach]

Not a support

Especially in raid

But like guy said, deva is really really good

So dont expect much aug

[brave moth]

If they start buffing their support spells they might comeback

[lucid jackal]

If dev was where ww was, maybe it's viable

But like dude

Dev is so insanely op

[brave moth]

In general idk what they nerfed just read it is dead and I was happy

[graceful osprey]

Surely Sub will get a big update on 11.2

[hazy breach]

Youre probably setting yourself up for disappointment if youre expecting that

[brave moth]

https://tenor.com/view/xqc-despair-xqcdespair-voidge-troll-gif-24691555

[wispy bolt]

Dev is really only OP in raid. Don’t get me wrong it’s solid in m+ but it’s not op

[winged prawn]

11.2 is Killing spree rework

[brave moth]

SUB IS GETTING KILLING SPREE LETSSS GOOOOO

kekw

[hazy breach]

Infinitely more likely than a sub rework

[winged prawn]

Huge Killing sprees with 0 haste

[brave moth]

This column means how many people have killed a boss with this spec, right?

[hazy breach]

Yes

Or well, how many times it has been logged

Which is generally close to 1:1

[brave moth]

Ya,ya

[wispy bolt]

My dream is separate m+ tuning like pvp is now in 12.0

That way they aren’t freaking out about buffing sub and affecting raid

[brave moth]

Won't, prolly can't happen

They still don't threat m+ like it's own "game" like Raid and PvP is

[lucid jackal]

It can happen but the Devs have said specifically they don't like the idea of tuning for dungeons and raid separately

[brave moth]

And I mean it will be kinda too much.

[lucid jackal]

As your spells working, in some cases, dramatically different in different forms of content doesn't feel good

[brave moth]

^

[hazy breach]

I highly doubt the reason sub isnt getting a buff for m+ has anything to do with it being "too strong in raid", since its evidently not particularly strong in raid

[vale pine]

think its very likely to see changes to killing spree

[wispy bolt]

it prevents them from buffing anything trickster without affecting raid. Can’t even buff BP

BP taking over for evis if its buffed overall is trash

[brave moth]

Tbh sub is the worst out of the 3 rogue specs

So it is more likely the case of them not caring

[winged prawn]

Maybe we get a small tfd rework

[brave moth]

because they are already 2 specs that are doing good and why bother with 3rd

[vale pine]

they buffed assassiantion

so the entire balance enviroment is designed to make it more appealing to play other specs

intentionally

there are enough data to show subtlety isn't doing well

[wispy bolt]

I agree but I think it’s the wrong move. Just delete the bad spec at that point LOL

[vale pine]

i mean we had the same tuning strategy

in legion and bfa

we had a bit more mix and match in the newer xpacs

but e.g. DF

[brave moth]

I think they just don't have enought devs to deal with that many specs

[vale pine]

subtlety was most of the time good

[wispy bolt]

I’m a newish player (DF) and the balancing in this game is some of the strangest I’ve ever experienced

[vale pine]

when they nerfed other specs too hard for overpwerofming

not because they intentionally buffed it to that place

which they did with other rogue specs

[hazy breach]

Raid is almost always well balanced, even now

Theres not a massive chasm between specs

[brave moth]

It is like in other games (Don't play other mobas) They buff/nerf only the most played classes

out of 150+ (or whatev) champs in LoL there are like 40/50 that are played and changed regularly

[hazy breach]

M+ can be a bit different, but its not that bad rn either, were not talking like 30% more damage from bottom to top, its more like 10-15%

[vale pine]

raid balance is fine if you assume specs should be statistically close

[lucid jackal]

The spec is bad in raid rn

M+ has no affect on this

[vale pine]

top to bottom diffrence is like 15% in raid

ignoring dev

[dusty totem]

But is that not quite alot tho

[haughty mural]

could be worse

if you compare it to earlier expansions

[brave moth]

That is classic vanilla fresh reboot 3.0

That is not the normal thing

[dusty totem]

I just think bliz likes to have around 20% top to bottom diff in st raid

[hazy breach]

Its usually like 10%

[brave moth]

Now that is where I want to see sub

[dusty totem]

Is more than 10% atm tho

[brave moth]

Just everything is becoming hard to "balance" because of the type of dmg a spec provides and what the raid encounter is

[dusty totem]

But i am talking about st

[brave moth]

still

[leaden prairie]

NO

fuck saeldur

he was a cool dude till he became evil incarnate

(an aug player)

[brave moth]

Keep aug dead

[leaden prairie]

I miss the old sael

[brave moth]

and we can see Ramfam back soon

copium

Today I tried ass in HC and I did 200k/300k more dps from sub just because I am ass

It was kinda shit feeling

[jaunty heath]

I feel like people underestimate this point a lot, it’s just another layer of complexity, now imagine explaining to a new player that in keys you press x spell at 2 targets but in raid you only press it at 6 targets
Things would also feel weird man - ah yeah my ST is doing so much damage in raid but in keys it’s meh

[brave moth]

Fuk new players I wouldn't be able to understand it.

[lucid jackal]

Yeah it's just dumb

They balance for dungeons vs raid by nerfing aoe spells or aoe builds or whatever

[brave moth]

And if I have to learn 7 different rotation and variation of spells fuck that noice

[merry agate]

Dumb question bois...

Is a coup cast 4 times the risk to loose tier stacks? Since 4 evis "casts"?

[wild hornet]

finally stix is down

purple log on kill, could be worse

[merry agate]

Damn...
Blizz breaking my heart every day again and again

[past marlin]

Blizzard is a toxic girlfriend

[merry agate]

yeah but we're worse.... she abuses us and we keep comming back for more

[tulip gorge]

Don’t worry guys blizzard will remember tomorrow that sub exists and will make a separate post

[brave moth]

That is the definiton of toxic GF kekw

[tepid trellis]

sick nerubar balance patch post

[brave moth]

useless

[tulip gorge]

Imagine they actually buff deathstalker lmao

[merry agate]

imagine them fatal intent crits

we need that trickster bug back on deathstalker 😏

[lilac stag]

If they remember sub exists it’s gonna be a copy/paste

[brave moth]

fixed

I would like my 5% dmg buff

[past marlin]

We need an existing rogue dev

[brave moth]

Every class needs a dev

Somewhere I read that there are like 1 dev per 2/3 classes

I think MoP was the last time every class has a dev

[void ocean]

maybe they cant find sub rogue source code 😄

[brave moth]

kek

[void ocean]

like its lost on some git branch

like entire sub rework still on push branch, nobody to approve pull request 😄

[lilac stag]

Stealth spaghetti code working overtime

[steel zinc]

I told u all the time sub is bad

[lucid jackal]

It was the nutty prog spec

The they buffed sin and also every spec in the game

Gg

[heady dragon]

sub in the last 4 tiers in a nushell

its kinda funny at this point tbh

[lucid jackal]

It was good on farm on nerubar too tho

[hazy breach]

Yep it was definitely good

Just assa being slightly better for most people

[steel zinc]

Doesn't matter it's bad now. No joke now actually gameplaywise I like current sub

I expect a aura buff of 4% or so this month

[hazy breach]

If we're not getting anything this week i wouldnt expect anything

[void ocean]

I mean, someone has to be the worst

[worthy relic]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lucid jackal]

Current sub plays great but yeah

Was weak and now we're buffing all the bottom specs, again

[shell willow]

What's the fix though for sub? Buff our burst or our sustain.

[hazy breach]

Just aura buff like most other buffs they do

[patent crystal]

revert tier changes? (nerfs)

[fiery pewter]

Brand new (as of 2 weeks) Rogue here. When I chose this spec I was under the impression that it was pretty decent based on what I read off of wowhead. I mostly do M+ and I enjoy the way it plays quite a bit actually so ima stick with it, wowhead made it seem like a good pick based on the tierlist. Is that incorrect?

[dusty totem]

No then we will be shit again next season

[patent crystal]

true

[steel zinc]

We are next to Aug really down bad

Dps wise

[shell willow]

Yeah but it doesn't address the systemic issues the spec has.

[lilac plume]

Bring back old Dance CDR

[lucid jackal]

Such as?

These systematic issues wouldn't be issues if the spec was the highest dps of the 3 specs

[shell willow]

Thats fair.

Do you not want a bit more sustain damage? I enjoy our burstier profile but dropping like a rock after our burst hurts. Albeit if our highs were higher the lows wouldn't be as bad.

[lucid jackal]

If sub was the best dps spec of the 3 rogue specs. There "systematic issues" wouldn't be issues, they'd just be features of the spec

[molten citrus]

never pick specs based on tier lists, they're a joke. too many people make that mistake. but you'll be fine playing whatever you like, up until you get to the like top 1% of high end content

[lucid jackal]

It's like when sin is shit. "we need to add more energy to the spec to fix the fundamental issues the spec has"

But now sin is good so that's just how the spec works

But yeah sub doesn't need anything. It just needs an aura buff

It's a burst spec that is designed to not deal damage outside of cooldowns

It's damage curve is fine, quite useful actually for early prog

It's just that it needs an aura buff

[shell willow]

I prefer sub over sin so I'm all for a buff.

[vestal escarp]

this yapp stil going

[dawn summit]

i just think sub needs more dance cdr, so that it can be a little bit less strenuous to correctly do that burst damage

the profile is just... what sub is

[hazy breach]

Or less

[dawn summit]

sure, we could go with that too

[hazy breach]

So its consistently 1 inbetween each burst

[shell willow]

Less cdr more damage

[dawn summit]

'dance cdr needs to change' is a more reasonable take

[shell willow]

I'd actually be more on board for that.

[molten citrus]

reverting the dance CDR nerf would be pog

thats my only gripe with the spec atm, otherwise love it

[dawn summit]

i think sub should suffer less for losing uptime outside of cds generally speaking

[merry umbra]

just give me shadowstrike teleport back

[vestal escarp]

not even sure if 0.7 deepening would let you not dry sod anymore

[merry umbra]

death from above, shadowstrike teleport

and then we're talking

[fiery pewter]

Yeah I know, I usually use it as a tiny indicator on how bad something is. They had Subtelty at A tier for M+, which I assume is because of the spec's burst and prio damage. Although it doesn't have the fun CDR that like a Fire Mage has which I learned feels worse lol

[molten citrus]

balancing changes quite a bit throughout a season

[lucid jackal]

I hear this shit every tier with outlaw about punishing downtime

What fight this tier is giving you punishing amounts of downtime

Stix?

Every fight every tier is like, melee has 99% uptime

(and last tier)

[dawn summit]

oh in raid it's fine

does suck on stix a little but i just hate that fight so idk id probably find something else to complain about anyway

[lucid jackal]

What's a m+ fight where u have to run off the boss

2nd and 3rd boss dfc?

[dawn summit]

yeah i was thinking 2nd boss dfc you get some weird shit happening sometimes

1st boss rookery bc you can't sectec the boss for 25s at a time gets awkward

(but they could fix that literally instantly if they wanted to lol)

floodgate last boss

cinderbrew first boss has the stop dps phase but that ends up working out alright

couple of the overlaps of 2nd boss in priory too make you lose like 5s of uptime but that's rly nitpicky

there's usually a few things like that every season and they're just a big pain in the ass to deal with when they happen, disproportionately so for melees that are that uptime reliant, so just change the specs to be less strictly reliant on it

bc the mechanics themselves are fun when you aren't one of the few specs getting cucked by it

[honest void]

just don't get Katamari'd

[lucid jackal]

I mean the issue here is that like, giving more cdr in a vacuum doesn't "fix downtime" because then the rotation gets optimized, and suddenly you are able to get +1 dance per set of cooldowns and that becomes the new expectation of the spec

[hardy snow]

Wadr, it needs to redistribute damage burst from flag to dances so dance and its CDR make it significant, flexible and worthy while pairing with one major cd.
Doubling down damage on two major cd makes its CDR for the need of paring to major cds rather than using cdr to generate more burst windows.

[dawn summit]

i think there'd be a middle ground where you get more leniency without quite getting a 2nd set, but you could also go the route of lowering the cdr so you aren't worrying about it in the first place

[lucid jackal]

Yes there is a fine line where the spec is perfect and doesn't have any quirks like this but cdr just has this issue inherently

[dawn summit]

yeah i do agree it's a bit hopium to ask for them to find that perfect tuning spot

i just think it could stand to be better than it is right now

[lucid jackal]

It's also something that I don't think is needed. It's just a feature of the spec that downtime might suck a bit more so than it does for other specs (which I don't even think is true)

Many specs lose a lot with downtime

[honest void]

could make that argument for 90% of the specs in the game tbf

[dawn summit]

you SHOULD lose damage for sacrificing uptime, don't get me wrong, but you shouldn't have this compounding effect where you end up doing extended periods of zdps

[merry umbra]

uptime specs are generally the most fun but also the most frustrating

[honest void]

i'd argue the opposite

cause you start doing some funky shit to maintain uptime sometimes

[hardy snow]

The downtime thing you mentioned for those bosses isn't really a matter as you're not losing any significant enough dances considering how much uptime of dance you have now.
Losing some melee time becomes quite only sentimental these days for a 90s timeline since you're not actually for example waiting for dance at 90s due to several seconds melee downtime.
It isn't that tight anyway.

[dawn summit]

thinking about uptime and also protecting good uses of cds at the same time is what gets really frustrating to me

[tepid trellis]

remove FW and buff dance cdr

[dawn summit]

i don't mind doing one or the other

[lucid jackal]

But yeah idk I say this shit every tier when a spec is undertuned it's not some design flaw or in need of a rework, the spec is probably just undertuned. Trickster sub in its current state I would argue is the best version of the spec, but it's undertuned so wcyd

Give it a 10% buff and suddenly it's good and none of the "design flaws" are flaws anymore

[tepid trellis]

i think overall its pretty okay

just a few pain points

[dawn summit]

trickster sub is awesome

[tepid trellis]

FW + shadowed finishers dependency
CDR too tight which makes it too punishing and you have almost no wiggle room with it

[hardy snow]

If a 10% is needed and not a design flaw anywhere, the tricky thing becomes Sub was quite fine on top at the beginning where this 10% aura would make it exceeding, while it actually needs one later in the season.

[lucid jackal]

Sub was strong early cuz it had it's near bis trinket on week 1 of the patch

And also every spec in the game getting buffs

[hardy snow]

I think that shows a design flaw since how a last tier trinket would be actually near BiS the tier after.

and that's not a trinket design problem.

If we look at this on a higher level, it is still a numerical problem of undertuning of base AP of our finishers or mastery effectiveness.

[wispy bolt]

Any 3300-3400 sub gamers here? Any tips for timing 15 and 16s. Priory 15 as sub is killing me

[lilac stag]

The design flaw is thier trinket balancing

[honest void]

it's defo a trinket issue with that one

[lilac stag]

[honest void]

@random hare

[wispy bolt]

Bleed on ToP doesn’t seem to be it

[honest void]

u just hybrid

[wispy bolt]

but neither does sub

[random hare]

sry im not 3300-3400

[lilac stag]

KB copium is real

[honest void]

bro is like 3.8k true

[random hare]

in a key brb

[honest void]

can't help you there

[hardy snow]

This is not true. Unholy also use transmitter but that goes only at 7% max while Sub has it standing above 9%

[honest void]

not even streaming is wild

[wispy bolt]

I wanna hit 3300 as just sub before I swap assa. Thinking I need my tank to pull around me which will not fly with them🤣

[lilac stag]

That maybe some of the funniest shit I’ve read regarding broken spec or broken trinket

[lucid jackal]

Well it literally is

[random hare]

not feeling like it

[random hare]

idk what ur dying to, sub is one of the tankest specs in the game

[lucid jackal]

Sub is a 1:30 burst spec, it needs a 1:30 trinket to do damage, there is 1 single 1:30 trinket in the game

[honest void]

fair

[lilac stag]

You deserve a break

[honest void]

send details after then

[random hare]

idk we just depleted 1st boss TOP 19

casually brm doing 4m

lmao

[honest void]

what did you guys wipe to?

[random hare]

positioning

[lilac stag]

UH doing tank dmg

[random hare]

nah they died

hes decent

[merry umbra]

3t is one of the few counts that UH isn't good

[random hare]

possibly

[hardy snow]

Idk why you find it funny. Cards gives Sub and for example Unholy at ~11%, but transmitter gives Sub above 9% and makes it much less a upgrade. if you talk about 90s, there are several also doing 90s, for example Unholy.
Certainly, one would argue DK's weapon enh about transmitter, but for Sub it is also true for its sluggy growth, especially when CB is chosen.

[wispy bolt]

I’m not dying in game… lol I mean killing me as I can’t time it and it’s irritating me

[lilac stag]

It’s almost like one spec needs perfect pickup timing with cds to fit all of the dmg in the trinket window. The trinket overall sims at an unattainable level outside of sims.

good luck picking it up exactly at every Sectech.

That trinket also had 5 or more iterations in simc to try to make it work for all specs.

For some it’s not as optimized. People just stopped caring.

Same reason pvp trinket was and is recommended over heroic transmitter early on

[hardy snow]

tbh, i think you're missing the point here. a last tier agi trinket simply matches a mastery trinket this tier only makes it a very noticeable difference in attribute effectiveness for different specs.
As Guy stated Sub obtained a near BiS trinket early on exactly showed this issue since other spec, besides later on buffs, they have more room for dps increase considering trinket upgrading.

[lilac stag]

Agility isn’t as valuable with ilvl increases

Same for assa

[hardy snow]

it's not about ilvl

[lilac stag]

we also lose value in mastery. Higher ilvl stats to value vers and crit more

It’s moving parts

Tuning is tuning. Always has been

Edge of night anyone?

[honest void]

my beloved

[hardy snow]

when you say we lose value in mastery, it is an issue. For instance, we have very focused attribute direction, especially for CB build. And Vers is very expensive.

[lilac stag]

it’s not an issue. We hit a point where it goes from giga bis to tied to second.

[hardy snow]

and with CB and rot, crit becomes very moot, maybe for FW and Stealthi would like to remove it.
Haste is a baby died somewhere in ovary

[lilac stag]

wtf is your actual point?

no one actual cares about stat weights, except maybe lashga

But I think he’s off that finally now

The specs CDR needs minor tuning.

Everything else is fine. If they don’t give 2 min specs a 2 min trinket what happens to them? The same thing that happens when a 90 second spec doesn’t have a 90 second trinket.

[wide kernel]

is there generally a lack of newer rogue players trying sub?

[lilac stag]

no one plays rogue

[wide kernel]

and less play sub right

[lucid jackal]

Rogue is unpopular and most ppl default to sin

[hardy snow]

My point is very clear: Our ability base line is undertuned or our mastery effectiveness is not high enough, which makes Sub reaches growth peak very early with our current most optimised build, especially on a tier where trinket also stacks on mastery.
It is not a 90s or 120s thing. We have a 90s trinket.

[wide kernel]

i think the weird stuff outside of subs big cd's is a major reason why noone plays it

its a very unintuitive spec to learn, esp from a new players perspective, it didnt bother me much, but I'm a one trick who doesn't mind really difficult challenges

like you will only be okay at sub after like a month of relentless grinding

[void ocean]

Oh fck new players

[random hare]

ah

ofc well

priory

as sub

is a scam

cuh

sub is bad on all keys now anyway so

timer wise

that is

[void ocean]

All 3 of em

[slate marlin]

zeross still csnt count to 12 damn

thank god hes good at wow

[lilac stag]

12 is where we stop counting in Sub world

[hardy snow]

I pointed this out already. double major cd is not healthy and not Sub's theme at all.
Sub would feel much more happy for me if we do CDR and we burst with CDR ability.
Now we burst with two major cds and CDR mechanisms are used to squeeze some so-so damage between we pair everything for the cds.

[wide kernel]

yeah and i keep hearing that we SHOULD do nothing outside of CD's and thats just a far out take to me

[tepid trellis]

that part i do agree with you lament

[wide kernel]

aint noone wants to deal with that, esp not new players

[merry umbra]

not many specs like that left

i do want that

[slate marlin]

wonder what would have happened if they had gone with the 45 sec cd flag

r the 2 min sb 1 min flag

[void ocean]

Ud be assa

[random hare]

give me a break

[void ocean]

Well at least in latter

[random hare]

im doing a +11 key rn

[tepid trellis]

Sub's dmg should be dance, not blades or flag

[leaden prairie]

I will break your ass noob

[hardy snow]

In the past, how we describe Sub? We usually say we're burst and we're also flexible since our burst abilties have CDR and we can do things when it is needed.
There was a version of 2min SB and 1min flag, but for some reason they made it to 90s both.

[wide kernel]

yeah that would be better i think if damage was in dance and not flag

[lilac stag]

just dont send us back to the shadow realm of 90% dance uptime

[lucid jackal]

Blades wasn't a 2 min CD

Blades was also dogshit before the rework

Blades was a meme cooldown beacuse of stiletto sticato

[wide kernel]

another majorly bad thing for new players is that the spec looks way worse than how it can actually peform because its tank pull dependent

[void ocean]

I thin we had all combinations

[tepid trellis]

yeh keep it at like 50 ish

[lilac stag]

blades was more of a meme than AR as a Outlaw CD

[void ocean]

Of sb/flag vds

[tepid trellis]

like legion days

[molten citrus]

https://tenor.com/view/i-need-it-spongebob-spongebob-squarepants-gif-4883506

[hardy snow]

I think in PTR they made a version, lasted very shortly, we have 2min sb and 1min flag.

[slate marlin]

why was this bad? didnt play it

[lucid jackal]

So just sin?

[lilac stag]

nothing you did mattered

[lucid jackal]

a 2 min class with a 1 min micro cd

[lilac stag]

ignoring resources is not the way

[hardy snow]

If you have to immediately compare it with some other spec, sure.

[tepid trellis]

sorry not 50% lol like 30%

is what i meant

[lilac stag]

i figured

since i know we've talked about it before

[lucid jackal]

Have 2 specs with exact same CD caedance would be ass

Part of what made sub good this tier early on was it being a 1:30 spec compared to sins 2

[hardy snow]

90s spec is very okay, but not two major cds together

[lilac stag]

the need for sub 1:30 diminished as raid buffs went out and other specs got stronger. adds just vanish

[wide kernel]

yeah

[slate marlin]

ye i agree two major cds is weird

[wide kernel]

but you'd have to tune it pretty differently if you split the CD's no?

[hardy snow]

release some from 90s flag to every dance.
BTW, 24s flag and 16s SB, I cannot call it any thing like well-designed and paired.

[void ocean]

Bring back sepsis to have 3 like before 🤣

[molten citrus]

Multiple specs have more than 1 CD

[leaden prairie]

I think sub should have a way to be more flexible with its cds

[wide kernel]

are they fixing the fazed nimble bug thing on patch day or no?

[leaden prairie]

Kinda like if you had a way to reduce your cds by 30 s

From time to time

[wide kernel]

b/c they say they fixed it but i hear from you guys its not fixed

[slate marlin]

Yes ofc, but 2 major cds that are only ever used together?

[molten citrus]

Yh

[hardy snow]

also same cd, used together, and does much much less out of CDs?

[slate marlin]

im curious which ones actually

warrior msybe?

[molten citrus]

Warrior, DK, there’s a few

[slate marlin]

Dk?

[lucid jackal]

yes all the time LOL

Warrior does, paladin does

[indigo steppe]

Arcane is basically the same like that

[molten citrus]

Not doing much outside of CDs wasn’t the topic just now

[void ocean]

Arcane is 45-90

[fiery pewter]

But TotM can at least be used inbetween every Arcane Surge as well

So you aren't totally dry

[indigo steppe]

Not totm

[hardy snow]

sorry, didn't get it.

[lilac stag]

I miss you dust

[indigo steppe]

Evocation and surge

Both 90s use them together

[hardy snow]

Maybe they should simply double Dark Shadow but cause it not working when SB is active

[wide kernel]

out of curiousity, would we have tuning issues if we didnt have bugs ?

[lucid jackal]

Yes

[shell willow]

I believe so.

[wide kernel]

like how much of a dps loss are the bugs

[hardy snow]

we always have bugs. invalid question

[slate marlin]

can rogue exist without bugs even

[lilac stag]

Every spec has bugs

[shell willow]

Just give us a 10% aura buff and we can double check.

[lilac stag]

I love hunters mark randomly pulling again

[void ocean]

Just revert preseason nerfs and we gucci

[hardy snow]

I love env only last 1s

[wide kernel]

are we just 10% behind other specs in keys? it seems like more than that

[lilac stag]

depends how your tank pulls

[wide kernel]

see idk if i believe that

[indigo steppe]

Are there any other specs so reliant on another class's buff

Seems so beyond stupid shaman buff is so strong

[wide kernel]

because there are 3 dps in your group, can the tank even be asked to pull specifically for you?

[shell willow]

You'll see a drastic difference with a tank pulling around your cds

[lilac stag]

sub is fine in keys. Does great boss dmg without being ass on aoe. But sitting dry isn’t great when your tank has no balls to pull more than 5 mobs at a time.

[wide kernel]

yeah but that's not really what I'm talking about here. One thing I do is just spend an extra dance if i don't think i'll get value out of flag/blades

[lilac stag]

It’s is

[hardy snow]

Idealy, sub needs its tank to pull something whenever your cd is about ready.

[lilac stag]

Our dmg is fine when our cds are considered.

other specs need this as well

[wide kernel]

but can the tank be asked to do that

[tepid trellis]

if your cds are strong enough ofc

you did that for shamans last tier

so

[lilac stag]

Assa kinda an outlier where there are no CDs needed with bleed so if they’re chain pulling at 35% you’re golden.

If they pull with 1 mob up at 10% you’re fucked

[slate marlin]

Assa has rly good sustained aoe

[lilac stag]

and wasting a vanish

[hardy snow]

not really since they don't have that low damage when out of cds or in other words, they dont lose that much when cds are delayed.

[wide kernel]

yeah

[lilac stag]

and those specs have all been buffed with tuning.

[shell willow]

Lol

[hardy snow]

That's true.

[lilac stag]

it’s a knob. Blizzard has it available.

[wide kernel]

what other spec has healer damage outside of its major cd's and only its major cd's

[lilac stag]

They chose not to use it.

[fiery pewter]

Fire?

[slate marlin]

fire mage

[shell willow]

Even fire is not so dry outside of cds.

[slate marlin]

arcane maybe?

[fiery pewter]

Arcane can do decent enough damage

[tepid trellis]

fire outside of combustion is a tank

[fiery pewter]

Don't underestimate Barrage and orb spam

[lilac stag]

fire is dry when the mobs are outside of the prio target

[shell willow]

Combustion is up quite often though

[tepid trellis]

so is shadow dance

so point is kinda moot

we do decent dmg in dances

on AoE

[fiery pewter]

Especially with this current tier set that has even more CDR for combustion

[lilac stag]

remove the reliance on skyfury. Adjust dance CDR by like .1-.2 and dry is less of an issue

[wide kernel]

btw outside of cooldowns and outside of dance, my priority should be spreading rupture, then getting flawless form and then using evis right?

[hardy snow]

This is exactly the issue for Sub but happened in an opposite way: Fire is a tanke out of combustion but they have CDR on combustion, while Sub has CDR for dance but Sub's burst isn't on dance now.

[tepid trellis]

depends on target count

[shell willow]

Exactly.

[wide kernel]

how so

[tepid trellis]

you dont eviscerate with enough targets with FW on them

[wide kernel]

BP then everything has FW?

[tepid trellis]

at 5 or more targets with FW up

[wide kernel]

so i should be using storm to apply rupture and FW then BP if its 5 or more?

[tepid trellis]

storm at 3 targets outside of dance

[wide kernel]

how i spend the CP in that situation though

evis on 4 or less?

[random hare]

guys omgomg

the new

1 button rotation is insane no cappp!!!

swifty 1 shot macro's dream implemented to wow

[tepid trellis]

if there aint 5 targets or more with FW up

you eviscerate

[wide kernel]

but i have to use BS for flawless form in that same situation right

[tepid trellis]

u can just stab once to proc it

or its gonna be up regardless when you enter dance

[wide kernel]

right i understand that part

evis on 4 or less bp on 5 or more

but im also told that rupture is like the big thing i can do outside of cd's

[tepid trellis]

yes

[wide kernel]

when do i do that last part

[tepid trellis]

Eviscerate / bp are fillers

when not in dance

[wide kernel]

i see

[tepid trellis]

so as long as the targets live long enough you rupture over those 2

[wide kernel]

[outside of cd's] -> rupture everything -> get FF -> evis on 4 BP on 5

ty

[tepid trellis]

it is also important to note that it is not 5 targets but 5 targets with FW debuff on them

last part is the important bit

[wide kernel]

you'd be farming the CP with storm to pay for rupture until you hit FW then i guess as well?

[molten citrus]

i'm gonna one shot you

[merry umbra]

idk what makes you guys think fire does tank damage outside of bust

it's literally like 600k dps in 10 targets

😂

[tribal blade]

how would they go around doing that

[fiery pewter]

It is simple. Remove Shaman

[short radish]

make it the same as retpal

skyfury doesnt affect it

[tribal blade]

ahh ok i see

[short radish]

and up the proc rate to compensate

[tribal blade]

so literally remove skyfury autos as something that affects it

makes sense

[short radish]

yeah

[slate marlin]

ye

[short radish]

theyv edone it before

they can do it again

[swift tinsel]

Yeah, that’s how it works with crusading strikes

[tribal blade]

gotcha i didn't know they've done it in the past

that's good to know

[swift tinsel]

So it should be easy to implement

Emphasis on ‘should’

[tribal blade]

yeah i'd be down for that

[slate marlin]

No spec should depend so much on a raid buff

[swift tinsel]

Can remove one auto from the way shadow craft works so it triggers more on its own

Orrrr make snd affected by mastery

Again

Plz

[slate marlin]

just ask for pi to get morr autoattacks

[tribal blade]

having an insane amount of power tied to skyfury is so bad

[swift tinsel]

Agreed

Should never be more than like 2-3% gain from any single raid buff

Not 8 or whatever is it for sub

[tribal blade]

i think it can go higher than 8

[swift tinsel]

Which is absurd

[tribal blade]

but yeah we're just forever talking about these things in here and blizz will take years to do anything 🙂

[short radish]

ive kinda lost faith again

in blizzard doing anything for sub

we're going to get the WW treatment

be shit for like

8 years

have one season of brilliance

and then fade out again

[shell willow]

Crazy how rogue is the only pure dps spec that gets ignored the way it does.

[short radish]

well

assi is always decent

[hazy breach]

Ye current trickster gameplay is imo the best its been since i started playing rogue (which was mid legion)

[tribal blade]

yeah sin has been the premier rogue spec in terms of dev attention

[short radish]

last time sin was weak was sl s1 or something?

[tribal blade]

it's not mage levels of attention, but it's the most

[shell willow]

It is just sad that Outlaw and Sub aren't more practical.

[hazy breach]

I can get behind giving us more cdr or less cdr so we can use dance at 30+60 with more or at 45 with less, but overall the spec is currently very strong conceptually

Being able to freely move most of your damage is so strong

[tribal blade]

i think the last time sin was weak was before the big rework

[short radish]

true

sub is acutally so fucking good for gally

at least for killing adds

[shell willow]

Yeah can't go wrong with prio damage just feels bad on the overall.

[hazy breach]

Its undoubtedly insane for rik

[short radish]

yeah delaying your burst by 5-10 seconds

doesnt really affect you

"burst"

[short radish]

this is acutally really true

and why i still play sub

its just comfy

things work

we're one tuning patch from being good

but apparently we just get ignored

[shell willow]

It feels good to play but I raid with another sin rogue and lol I feel like im sandbagging if im not sin

[short radish]

honestly depending on the fight

the difference isnt that drastic

just play better than him

and assert dominance

[shell willow]

TRUE

[hardy snow]

Without Shadowcraft, it is possible for a standalone version of ShadowTech. But now it seems very difficult

[hazy breach]

Like guy said its just mostly a numbers being too low thing, if they aura buff its going to be good

[shell willow]

Lol a git gud angle i hear that.

[short radish]

i did a boost the other day with another sin rogue

and other than vexie, im pretty sure i smoked him on every fight

actually felt so good

[sullen hare]

That always feels good

[short radish]

oh i lost to him on stix as well nvm

but winning on sprocket

[shell willow]

Yeah my sub set is damn near perfectly itemized I'd love for a buff

[short radish]

end of the day, unless youre RWF

the differences between the specs

arent that drastic that we're unplayable

[tribal blade]

definitely not unplayable

[short radish]

except in keys though

[tribal blade]

but i still can't get over them just leaving sub down at the bottom of the charts

[hazy breach]

Lets just hope for good tierset next tier

[shell willow]

Lol rupture buff

[short radish]

im kinda done wiht this RNG tier set

give me flat damage buff again

having a 1mill dps variance on my opener

[hazy breach]

Idk if you get good timings in keys for sub it feels amazing, but likewise it feels shit if you dont

[short radish]

is actual balls

[hazy breach]

Literally you win some and you lose some

[shell willow]

Yeah and im typically low rolling

[swift tinsel]

Embrace the full gamba

[tribal blade]

this tier set was a fail for me conceptually

[shell willow]

I hate it

[swift tinsel]

Sometimes you’re bonk other time you’re B O N K

[hazy breach]

Heres a silly little trick for you to make the opener better, before you wipe (or at the end of the trash pack) pop sectech without using backstab or strike afterwards

The disorienting strikes from trickster stays

[short radish]

wait

through death?

[lucid jackal]

I said it a bit earlier but I do wonder if adding more CDR doesn't actually fix the issue

[swift tinsel]

Hax

[short radish]

holy shit

and that stacks with symbols as well?

[swift tinsel]

I personally think fixed dance cd would be better than a cdr fix

[short radish]

opener is gonna be wild

[tribal blade]

oh shit nice

[short radish]

i wonder how the raid leader will go with me needing a full boss reset + 30 sec pull timer though

[hardy snow]

Dark Shadow: Shadow dance does not lose its duration while Shadow Blade is active ; shadow dance increase your damage by 30/60% when Shadow Blade is not activated.

[shell willow]

More cdr might be a noob trap to be honest. Idk whats the best play. I just want sub to be the best rogue spec

[tribal blade]

yeah likely the best option is to just remove cdr from dance

[hazy breach]

I mean depends on what youre trying to fix. Making it easier to play by having reasonable rules and expectations is something it would do

[swift tinsel]

2 charge 45sec fixed or something like that

[lucid jackal]

I think sub is very easy to understand rn, but sure

[hazy breach]

The timings of dance and symbols outside cds is not

[swift tinsel]

Lorrgs + MRT reminders helped me a bunch

For raid at least

[short radish]

same

[shell willow]

Yeah the timings are good at this point. Unless you panic and send accidently.

[short radish]

thank fuck for lorrgs

[hardy snow]

We have dance uptime, and we just need it to do its job, and not from CDs.

[hazy breach]

I agree with your general take that sub isnt as hard as people say, but the best usage of those is not super obvious to most people

[swift tinsel]

I kinda like that extra depth

[shell willow]

It's the naked sectechs that throw me.

[lucid jackal]

Most people are noobs

[short radish]

honestly

[swift tinsel]

I just look at flag cd and send if I can

[short radish]

you do like

1 naked sectech a fight

[swift tinsel]

Not too much to think about

[short radish]

maybe 2

if its more than 6min

[swift tinsel]

Line it up with spawns if it helps

But pretty easy to overthink

[wide kernel]

but putting sectec on cd is going to be bad for the next trash mob, no?

[hazy breach]

Well the context is raid

So theres no trash mobs

[wide kernel]

oh i see

makes sense

[short radish]

can that be simmed?

hahahaha

[hazy breach]

Yes, its like +0.5% or so

[short radish]

damn

[hazy breach]

Obviously less the longer the fight is

[hardy snow]

Right now the whole theme of Sub is mislead: we pair dances with two 90s cds and try our best to squeeze some damage from CDR abilities.
and we're arguing that we need more dance? we just need our dances to do its damage. Not 90s cooldowns.
If not, why we need those CDRs?

[lucid jackal]

I like the way sub does its damage rn idk

[hazy breach]

90s is more fun because the burst can be bigger than 30s dance

[shell willow]

Okay so in the best of cases we'd like an aura buff and maybe a buff to spell coefficients and mastery values?

[hazy breach]

[lucid jackal]

It feels like I'm dropping a bomb in cooldowns

Its fun

[swift tinsel]

ESP when it makes other people talk about it in chat/disc

[short radish]

just buff sub by 4.6% and we'll be top of the middle of the pack

[swift tinsel]

Quite satisfying

[short radish]

honestly gameplay is fine

even the no damage out of cds is fine

[sullen hare]

Counterpoint: no sub changes and we continue to decay

[hazy breach]

Not scaling well with BL is also a blessing and a curse i kind of enjoy

[short radish]

same

i feel i've fully ingested the copium so hard

it just runs through my veins

i was malding throughout abberus that haste doesnt affect sub

but now im like

[hazy breach]

(primarily not needing PI tbh)

[short radish]

you know what

[hardy snow]

Its fun when it actually does what it should. And that could happen only if Blizz does not build a ceiling.

[short radish]

i dont need performance enhancing drugs to improve my dps

[hazy breach]

Im not sure what you mean

[shell willow]

They are so afraid of letting us burst.

[hardy snow]

And we lose too much when we delay the 90s.

We're not that strong so route suits us. But we're that weak when we wait and delay.

[hazy breach]

Thats just numbers though

[short radish]

tank just needs to not be a coward

and pull when you have big damage

[hardy snow]

Numbers matter

[short radish]

also the thing about m+ is

never hold cooldowns

dont go "oh its a small pack i'll hold for next"

just send

[wide kernel]

also i hear sub is fine in keys and i hear sub is bad in keys, which is actually true? I'm at 13's and it feels fine but hows that gonna look at 15's?

[short radish]

better start getting your assi spec bound

[hardy snow]

I can lie to myself that I contributed so much for this key when it finished in time.
But when it didn't, ppl ask why you do so less damage on this, this and that pulls.

[hazy breach]

Just like raid the numbers are not quite there compared to assa

Sub does good damage with its cooldowns, currently just not high enough to warrant the low damage outside of it

[wide kernel]

and we're saying a 10% aura buff is going to fix the issues it has?

[shell willow]

It needs to do great damage in cds

[short radish]

if we got a flat 10% aura buff

we'd be #1 spec in the game

probably

[tepid trellis]

eh not sure about that chief

[short radish]

in raid we would

[tepid trellis]

but we would be in an alot better spot than now

[wide kernel]

like on 1st boss top if i'm at 4mil overall when it dies and i get to be at 4.40 mil

is it really fine?

[lucid jackal]

10% aura buff or 10% damage buff

[hardy snow]

and the bottom line, if a CDR spec relies on fixed major cd to do damage, what's the meaning of those CDRs?

[shell willow]

Ele and Boomy blast in their cds but the drop off isn't severe with all the dots.

[wide kernel]

10% can almost just be called a skill diff so i wonder if its not actually more like 15 or 20

for keys, at least

[hardy snow]

It is like Fire mage does not rely on Combustion but on Great Invisibility

Or something else

[shell willow]

Lol huh

[lucid jackal]

A compelling gameplay loop that rewards good play and uptime

[hazy breach]

Turns out fire is a different spec than sub

[short radish]

okay puts us just below aff lock

nvm

[hardy snow]

Sure, you can always put this argument to anything when people compare two specs and choose to ignore the truth in it.

[hazy breach]

Like ye i wouldnt be against removing the cdr and making it flat cd, but i dont think it matters much either way

[tepid trellis]

you are not accounting fight design, some bosses we will just do less than some of the top classes cuz we cant reach the mobs

like OAB or mugzee

[wide kernel]

i was gonna say this is a big deal yeah

[short radish]

ye i know thats just every boss fight

blah blah vaccuum etc

[lucid jackal]

Well the truth is that sub was better on prog when it was tuned higher, and also the ability to move around shd/sod was very valuable on fights like Sprocket, stix, oab, gally

[warm marlin]

feel like sub is very easy to execute it just requires quite a bit of prep for raid fights

[hardy snow]

It is like Realz put dance to general and then later get it back and say, dance should be the core of sub and thus only for sub.
and now we have dance but what kind of core it is?
A core to make things mroe complex, maybe.

[warm marlin]

studying ahead to look when to use cds/hold etc,

mrt/kaze op op

[short radish]

okay yeah even on sprocket 10% flat buff isnt even top 5

fuck we're so down bad

[hazy breach]

I dont really think it does

Not more than any other spec

[lucid jackal]

So fun fact

This isn't a ST raid

And it for sure wasn't a ST raid on prog

[warm marlin]

well mostly due to having a charge system. assa for example doesn't really have the ability to move cds around like sub does

[lilac stag]

just be assa on mugzee and you win the game

[warm marlin]

holding cds at all when you dont have charges is a bit cringe

[lucid jackal]

Sin is losing value cuz ppl are doing speed strats now

and need p1 dmg

[short radish]

wait what did sin get in p1?

[warm marlin]

I played sin on our reclear and didnt get a 2nd dm in execute

[short radish]

cleave from the adds?

[lilac stag]

yeah but for prog the splatter tech is yummie

[hazy breach]

They (the gaols) usually die too fast now anyway

[shell willow]

Yeah and that stacking damage buff will only further accelerate kill times

[wide kernel]

also

the fazed bug fix thing, it's not fixed you all say, is it going to be fixed on patch?

[hazy breach]

Its not fixed, no clue if it will be or not

But its fairly incosequential all things given

Its like +1% to dungeons overall

[wide kernel]

the nimble flurry fix thing was more impactful?

[hazy breach]

Probably not

Since on those huge pulls we should be using black powder anyway

[lucid jackal]

The nimble flurry hitting dead targets thing matters less for sub as its only a thing in big pulls, where you press BP anyway

Yeh

[hardy snow]

I like Sub's unintuitive AoE style of single target generator with AoE finisher, which is the opposite of Sins' AoE generator with ST finisher.

[hazy breach]

If they want us to still use BP with trickster the threshold should imo be 9 targets so it makes sense

Since flurry hits 8

Instead of what we have right now where its 7 on average, but technically 5 if youre tracking find weaknesses

[hardy snow]

No, that's not the criteria.
It gives two approaches to fit what you need: you need to cleave or you need to do flat aoe

And thus there should not be any specific number of targets limited. Nimble should do reduced damage beyond 7.

[merry umbra]

it should blend together, BP is bad and needs to be buffed and should be a gain at fewer targets, prio damage with trickster should be a choice at the cost of damage

[swift tinsel]

This would only make perfect sense

Therefore not possible

[merry umbra]

zero overlap and a hard rule isn't cool

[hazy breach]

Why should it cost damage

Whereas for deathstalker it doesnt

[swift tinsel]

Been saying since they started toying with BP it should only ever be when it’s more damage than nimble cap

[short radish]

it also doesnt cost damage for assi

[hazy breach]

Like conceptually i agree, but theyve moved in the direction of having passive cleave with no prio penalty onto every spec

Having it only be a thing for trickster specifically when the talent seems to indicate the opposite on first read feels wrong

[hardy snow]

Deathstalker is okay. it is a forced pattern: you do BP like 10 stacks of flawless while every forth you do a 3.2x evis (SF certainly bugged but well it's blizz)

[merry umbra]

idk, i don't think there's really an objective truth that they're going that direction

as a fire mage main, often it feels like they're trying to move away from that for us

such is the current tuning for them

[hazy breach]

What

[hardy snow]

What what?

[hazy breach]

Deathstalker just wants to press BP

At 4 targets it does more prio than eviscerate anyway

[hardy snow]

Sure, but primary target damage is embedded in its own way

[hazy breach]

Well ideally you dont eviscerate

You just keep BPing

[merry umbra]

i think a big issue with hero talents atm is that the base kit power is too weak for any fair crossover

for many specs

like disc is, zero atonement or 100% atonement

[hazy breach]

Like the ideal way to play deathstalker aoe during dance is to Strike a target without mark up > bp > storm with ctw > bp > strike another target without mark up > bp > storm with ctw etc

[hardy snow]

what do you mean by ideally?
A forced model has its own shortcoming if you do not need primary target damage, and that's simply DS's weakness, which causes all kinds of cancel aura actions.

[hazy breach]

And if you get a shadowcraft refund and proc darkest night you just cancelaura it

So you can continue proccing the marks without needing to eviscerate

Which is an absolutely atrocious gameplay loop

[hardy snow]

That's simply what it is, and I'm not details-bar-length driven player. I'm content driven player. If the content does not need it, then it is not so good for DS in this scenario. If it happens a lot for a run, I'd better switch to something else.

And DS has other issues, like using Storm not getting 50% increased after marks consumed. Well, who knows that's Blizz thinking

[hazy breach]

Idk deathstalker is just dumb, you read the two hero talents and assume the one that has "you can continue eviscerating on aoe" has more priority damage doing the regular aoe rotation

But it turns out deathstalker does way more, especially if youre not doing the shitty thing i explained above

[hardy snow]

Way more or not, you still need to get the big one killed

[hazy breach]

Hodgepodge of plague damage go

[fleet herald]

im sure this gets asked constantly so sorry but, do we have a tool to take care of interupting the affix balls? blinds range seems awfully ineffective

[lucid jackal]

Just blind

And blood elf ig

[tribal blade]

@hazy breach trying the disorienting strikes tech

remembered to do it on a bandit wipe

[hazy breach]

Its silly that it works because it feels real bad if you wipe and you cant get the sectech off

But idk not getting a coup during your opener feels horrid too, which this prevents so

Most of the time youre getting that coup anyway since its like 15-20 seconds to proc something that has 4.5+hasted rppm, so on average its fine but sometimes you just get screwed

[sullen hare]

Blind doesn't work if you target an orb so keep that in mind otherwise just send it off your target or something else in the pack (that isn't an orb) if it looks close enough

[short radish]

yeah its so feelsbad when RNG doesnt hit

especially when RNG also hits on the shadowtechniques

and you do back to back finishers

and dont do any generators

[hazy breach]

Its only the opener and when you get unlucky where it feels really bad, but ye

[fleet herald]

well carp i think that was my main issue so its a bit helpful thanks 🙂

[sullen hare]

It's a common answer to a common problem

Never target the orbs

Unless blizzard fixes it but we are in #subtlety afterall

[lilac stag]

Just run 12s ezpz

Never deal with affixes again

[rocky ocean]

[open vortex]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[worn ivy]

Any hope for 2moro notes

Maybe somehow someway buffs ?

[short radish]

no

[vale pine]

unlikely

[past marlin]

Sub support confirmed. On Wednesday we will be below augmentation, so now we are cheap shot machine support

[tribal blade]

very unlikely we go below aug

the aug buffs aren't that big, and dev is still hard gapping aug by a lot

considering dev is the #1 raid spec ain't no way anyone is swapping off it

[tulip gorge]

Remember how hyped we were to play sub during ptr

[vale pine]

i mean, it is a common rogue tuning problem

nothing rly new to subtlety

the spec had an entire xpac it was the least played spec and one of the lowest tuned

the problem with TWW or DF is simply the amount of options the new trees generate

the devs can't keep up with the work required

and as such make bigger trade offs in where they invest dev time on

and tune accordingly

[leaden prairie]

im glad outlaw got fixed otherwise it would be in a similar place as sub

just need a wowhead article fuu

[tulip gorge]

The problem is sub did the worst mistake you could make

And that is being good in the first 2 weeks

[vale pine]

it was nerfed even before the tier opened

based on data from pre tier statistics

its a very weird way to tune

tuning needs to consider the tier set and power level uplift from the new tier

tuning on what is essentially speedkills of a old tier without any of the new stuff

leads to exactly what we saw

[tulip gorge]

They are simply unable to think long term

[vale pine]

now, the even weirder part is the buff to assassiantion

because both assassiantion and subtlety did statistically perform equal

so you know what happens if you buff assassiantion 5-6%