Bc they want us to quit
#subtlety
wide kernel
Brother I don't know how to tell you this but they have stealth detection In 2025
swift tinsel
Tanks leashing one mob so sin can’t restealth so they’re catching all the buffs, it tracks
tribal blade
blizz vs sub players
upbeat cradle
Brother I don't know how to tell you this but they have stealth detection In 202...
obviously it's been badly coded and isn't working properly
hazy breach
Ye and when they announce the bugfixes they dont actually fix it, they just say they did 
(the recent fazed fix they mentioned still isnt live)
tribal blade
(the recent fazed fix they mentioned still isnt live)
hmm that sounds familiar
too familiar
i forget when they did this at the start of the expac
or what they did this to
something with coup iirc
warm depot
i’m on suicide watch in my guild guys
they’re trying to get me to switch to sin
i will resist
alpine wraith
(the recent fazed fix they mentioned still isnt live)
the range problem and krangling of RS and also other things crack me up still
also the NS fixes?¿¿ 2 or 3 times
that didnt work
tribal blade
@hazy breach i was thinking there isn't any crazy tech this season like S1 right
like no necrotic wake MCing fleshcrafters type tech
warm depot
they won’t bench me cuz we are facing the roster boss but they might need to after another patch cycle of no buffs
uneven scarab
Crazy unholy made it this far until now with all that burst but sub got stopped on the ptr 
swift tinsel
They don’t want us to be the burst spec that people get whiny about having to learn
tribal blade
unholy allowed to have insane burst aoe
uneven scarab
I miss when the tier set was just ridiculous
tribal blade
arcane allowed to have insane funnel and ST
swift tinsel
With giga simple gameplay
tribal blade
sub nah
swift tinsel
-66% bomb
tribal blade
this has been a historical sub thing
swift tinsel
You mean caster sub
uneven scarab
caster sub*
Yeah graham it sucks balls man
I love the sub sets usually but they always get kneecapped
maiden oar
they’re trying to get me to switch to sin
i swapped out of the kindness of my heart but i like sub more 
tribal blade
that is one good thing the devs usually do with sub is give us kinda cool tier sets
but then they always kill the power in it
swift tinsel
wide kernel
Don't worry guys, sub buffs next week
wide kernel
On the bright side if they did it would be hilarious to try and explain the oddities of ds to newcomers
swift tinsel
“Yeah just don’t proc the capstone in aoe that’s intentional”
“Any by intentional we mean it does more damage not to do it”
uneven scarab
Yeah anytime you have more than 1 target man just fucking forget it exists np
swift tinsel
“Also ignore the “fatal” part of fatal intent”
swift tinsel
“Did you love auto attacking for big dam in classic? Well we’ve got a plaguey surprise for you!”
pastel rampart
Yeah anytime you have more than 1 target man just fucking forget it exists np
nuh uh u cant ignore it u have to actively track it to stop it from proccing :^)
uneven scarab
“Did you love auto attacking for big dam in classic? Well we’ve got a plaguey su...
If the apm of rogue was still like 35 it would be really fun im sure
swift tinsel
Hey with the new one button rotation it could be!
swift tinsel
Lmfao
uneven scarab
but its like 20+% for fire mage lmfao
swift tinsel
Meanwhile sub at 50%
swift tinsel
I tried to explain in my guild discord about why those kinds of things aren’t great for some specs and I got lambasted
By the hekili using ret paladin
uneven scarab
yeah imagine trying to fit both sectechs in flag but you cant due to the -20% gcd 
swift tinsel
Who thinks he has too many buttons to play without it
swift tinsel
Yarp
uneven scarab
Oh my
swift tinsel
Yeah it’s kinda wild
uneven scarab
i think we have an enhance sham that uses it
swift tinsel
And they’ll fawn over their parses
swift tinsel
Yeah I’m kinda glad I’m done raiding with them
It was getting kinda toxic, we’re on rik prog and people are griefing barrels esp ranged and someone was calling it out, got dog piled and quit
wide kernel
By the hekili using ret paladin
How can you possibly need hekili as a ret
uneven scarab
Great question
swift tinsel
Idk dude he used it as balance and outlaw in previous tiers
wide kernel
But like... it's a ret there's only one button
uneven scarab
divine storm brrrrrr
maiden oar
How can you possibly need hekili as a ret
i came to wow from ffxiv and filler in that game on most non caster jobs is pressing 123 in order over and over and people install an addon to press 111 instead because 123 on a 2.5s gcd is too hard
swift tinsel
Right, you get to five holy power, cast Hammer, then literally hit any buttons
maiden oar
if someone doesnt care u cannot dumb a class down enough to make them want to care
it is impossible
swift tinsel
Build, spend, turn off brain
uneven scarab
Yeah thats valid
swift tinsel
Cast seven finishers in a row
uneven scarab
the person actually has to want to learn the class at minimum lmao
swift tinsel
Bc you get infinite holy power
I tried Templar once and it felt so stupidly easy
I’m not at all surprised there’s a billion of them
maiden oar
like i think if u care anyone can press 123 or play ret or bm well but if u dont care no amount of simplification will ever help
uneven scarab
I havent played ret a single time in my whole life
But i guarantee i could learn it in 10 mins
if i WANTED to
swift tinsel
My first 70 in bc was a paladin and I didn’t start playing alts until late cata
And would kinda float back to it when I wasn’t on my rogue, warrior or dk
uneven scarab
Warrior was my first
maiden oar
yeah ive only played rogue/dh/wl really but ill probably try the others at some point
uneven scarab
Stuck with it until rogue in nathria
maiden oar
i like rogue though i wanna keep playing that guy
uneven scarab
Im playing mage this season but i be missing my rogue
swift tinsel
I’ve had every class maxed since WoD I think and dabble here and there in others
maiden oar
are there any other specs that are kind of similar to sub but also they dont suck rn
swift tinsel
But rogue and dk were the ones I came back to most, sometimes war
uneven scarab
I kinda hope between like 4 od them
swift tinsel
Arcane
uneven scarab
are there any other specs that are kind of similar to sub but also they dont suc...
Arcane :>
swift tinsel
Kinda
maiden oar
oh ok
maiden oar
i like the charges and flexibility and pressing ogcds in flag with 1s gcd and shadowcraft
uneven scarab
I decided to swap to arcane because i enjoy it, and then they buffed it 3 times LOL
maiden oar
and i feel like arcane doesnt do that
uneven scarab
cannot be mad
maiden oar
but i should probably still try it
uneven scarab
like barrage is very smooth
maiden oar
ty
uneven scarab
And it casts alot of things together
swift tinsel
Yeah idk if they still do but you’d double dip NP with a barrage que a lot
uneven scarab
double dip is gone now
uneven scarab
but its still good
Yeah its kinda lame
i like the double dipping alot, made the rotation SUPER fluid
swift tinsel
Although it’s spellslinger now
swift tinsel
Glad aethervision is gone, it sucked mega butts
uneven scarab
Arcane is literally ranged sub man
swift tinsel
And you get a ton of high voltage value in m+
uneven scarab
i been sayin this
swift tinsel
That’s why is my fav ranged spec lol
swift tinsel
Oh yeah I love it
Plus with the orb WA hearing 13 Kachings in a row is SO satisfying
uneven scarab
you get silly damage when ever adds spawn
Orb machine gun
Gotta be the best part of ss
Its so fun
swift tinsel
Plus the visual of splinterstorm is really cool, I like how they ended up beefing up the visual
swift tinsel
Like you feel like you’re ripping mobs apart when you send the full storm
uneven scarab
i mean i literally am ripping them apart
They definitely got arcane right
I think sf could use love though
merry agate
(real) 🫂
swift tinsel
I think sf could use love though
sf was a great time before they took out double dipping, added aethervision and reworked glorious incandescence but now that they have intuition in the spec tree they could easily bring some of that smoothness back
lilac stag
Arcane is literally ranged sub man
Nah. Arcane does damage.
merry agate
No
my uncle works at Blizzard and he just told me
backstab and instant poison buffs are on the table. They are discussing if would be too much
Cavalry is coming!
junior prawn
No
my uncle works at Blizzard and he just told me
backstab and instant poison ...
Tell uncle to give us some group utility like a raid buff 🙂 or br or lust
merry agate
Tell uncle to give us some group utility like a raid buff 🙂 or br or lust
Lets not be greedy
junior prawn
swift tinsel
darkness is what smokebomb wishes it was
wide kernel
No
my uncle works at Blizzard and he just told me
backstab and instant poison ...
Bro I complained on reddit and In response we are going to get 0.1% buff to storm
Celebrate
alpine wraith
or maybe buff fatal intent by 10000% for sub
so it does like 4% of total dmg
1 stack for per finisher and can stack on many targets pog
wide kernel
Buff darkest night incoming
alpine wraith
time to spam bp as god intender
spice matrix
or maybe buff fatal intent by 10000% for sub
Fatal intent in general needs god
uneven scarab
darkness is what smokebomb wishes it was
id really like to see smokebomb get actual pve usage
one can dream
uneven scarab
dk has party wide ams 
wheres ours?
yeah just at reduced effectiveness
give it a dmg cap or whatever
uneven scarab
i think thats how the ams one works
not sure
but yeah blizz im beggin for legit anything
something cool
wide kernel
Shroud is actually a really good ability in m+ not just for skips
swift tinsel
Pretty sure it scaled with either vers or max hp
uneven scarab
Shroud is actually a really good ability in m+ not just for skips
the movespeed talent makes it really good
like unironically i use it on my bdk all the time
wide kernel
I stopped taking shiv when I didn't have to for the 100% cd as well
swift tinsel
I def use vanish speed shroud when we need a speedy boost and roars are lacking or slacking
alpine wraith
it gets some use in rookery top and workshop etc
wide kernel
Nah it's every dungeon
Anytime you aren't chaining mobs it shaves time off the timer
In top going to altar it alone saves like 10-12 seconds
rocky ocean
wide kernel
Off the top of my head: 3 places in top, two places in rook, 1 place ml. 2 or 3 instances in brew, 2 in dfc, 3 in flood, 2 in priory
lilac stag
@alpine wraith class tuning & continued monitoring…. 
winter junco
Imagine being a sub player and reading the balance notes today
tribal blade
i was not surprised in the slightest
alpine wraith
<@131174440183529472> <:omegalul:585734084777476096> class tuning & continued mo...
they are monitoring with AI
time to go on twitter and go @grok why is sub not getting buffs
brisk onyx
cuz sub is stealthing
worldly portal
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/606497915287896076/1356859843532816555/17...
im scared
oh...
rocky ocean
sub rogues are augs for akaari soul
tribal blade
just wiped on the 1st pull on cinderbrew
on 16
what's wrong with this picture
it's not the reason we wiped
tank got disoriented
but what in the arcane funnel dream is happening here
rocky ocean
fotm moment
hardy snow
aug beating us next week?
This is just sad bc in the past Aug was above everyone and now just above sub. Wait, maybe that's what "sub" stands for in Blizz
alpine wraith
dont worry we are above all tanks for now
hardy snow
So it is the sub from sub-dps
plain dust
mages are always bad, unless they one of the few actual good ones
keen dome
Hell yeah
formal helm
dont worry we are above all tanks for now
Vdh getting awfully close
tribal blade
poor boomy got gatted 3 times in a row on the pulls after 1st boss
vale pine
I was impressed by sub funnel for a moment to realize it's assassination
mint swift
Looking at patch notes, I think they forgot sub exists
mint swift
actually yes haha
Bro it’s so bullshit the treatment mages get
“Oh fire is the best but dw frost is as good for some dungeon”
Now arcanes the best
tribal blade
think arcane mage must've died
nah he was alive until the tank died
tribal blade
Bro it’s so bullshit the treatment mages get
yeah it's pretty bad
mage as a whole is never allowed to be a bad spec
actually correction, mage as a whole is never allowed to not have a meta spec
shut ridge
alpine wraith
i always crackle
when fire is bad
and they buff it 6 times
then surprised pikachu fire is op
nerf it+
and buff arcane and frost
just in case
meanwhile rogue is dont do many changes
oh outlaw or sub are good nerf
assa a bit behind lets buff it two times
hoary bloom
Is there a new tuning post ?
hoary bloom
Where can I find it
earnest crane
guys do i need macro for shadowmeld or it doesnt work as vanish ?
just changed my race to night elf
tribal blade
guys do i need macro for shadowmeld or it doesnt work as vanish ?
just changed m...
you just press the button and you meld
if you move after melding it'll cancel the effect
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
wide kernel
guys do i need macro for shadowmeld or it doesnt work as vanish ?
just changed m...
why elf as rogue?
earnest crane
why elf as rogue?
just like elf nothing special
earnest crane
you just press the button and you meld
i mean a way that u could use it as a vanish a macro with stealth or smt
worn ivy
Blizz so delusional its insane
How come i dont see any subtlety buffs
Im assuming we are complete balanced. Does no st does no prio does no aoe. Eta gg
I start believe even outlaw better for m+ at this point i spend 1 hr atleast everyday in dummies since week 1 after all these upgrades we still doing week 1 dps its. Crazy
leaden prairie
With the hotfixes outlaw is probably better now yes
mint swift
actually correction, mage as a whole is never allowed to not have a meta spec
Then they will bring up certain seasons where it was only A tier or something
at least as a BM I acknowledge my rota is brain dead (although purely rotation wise MM is easier)
tulip gorge
These notes are such a disappointment
tulip gorge
Sub got nimble flurry fixed
hardy snow
and one more step, all three rogue specs will reach their peak level in m+, which is sub.
tulip gorge
That’s enough notes for you
vale pine
Update One button Rotation
Adding perfect trinket use, racial and potion use did bring the damage difference from the one button rotation down to only 30%-40%. This is a lot closer now and makes the rotation helper a somewhat reasonable option for very casual players.
Simulations:
⚔️ Single Target
🧌 Dungeon Slice
keen dome
that's cool
hollow spear
Since arcane seems to be the range sub: how difficult is that spec compared to what sub is rn?
lilac stag
-30% from subs already undertuned dmg profile… so basically 1 button rotation is now healing the boss?
tribal blade
Since arcane seems to be the range sub: how difficult is that spec compared to w...
from what i heard they massively simplified the spec
so it's not nearly as hard as it used to be
went from being the hardest rotation in the game to pretty chill
severe prism
-30% from subs already undertuned dmg profile… so basically 1 button rotation is...
-30% of 0 is still 0, it's a win win 😅
lilac stag
Blizz will find a way to bug out all def talents to heal the target
severe prism
Is there a way to cancelspellqueue macro or whatever to prevent cold blood being used on shadowstrike/backstab instead of sectech when mashing buttons ? 😅 or should i just stop mashing buttons ? 😭
supple nest
is very bad have 2 passive trinkets? as sub
since the cards are hard to get, and i get kezan eye
lilac stag
Is there a way to cancelspellqueue macro or whatever to prevent cold blood being...
/cqs however. Just have 2 Sectech binds. One natty and one macro’d with CB
lilac stag
since the cards are hard to get, and i get kezan eye
You need an on use that isn’t 2 minutes. Farm PvP badge. Takes very little effort.
supple nest
i have 2 options aim for the funhouse lens or floodgate seaforium
oh the pvp one, i know its good, but i dont play pvp, i will cost me a lot
worn ivy
Funhouse lens is bad
supple nest
what about signet of priority
keen dome
oh the pvp one, i know its good, but i dont play pvp, i will cost me a lot
good news: comp stomp is on atm
lilac stag
you don’t pvp for it. You ride around farming Warcrates
keen dome
It's a version of arathi in a brawl whre the enemies are bots.
You literally cannot lose. I highly recommend just slamming it today and you'll be done in no time
lilac stag
what about signet of priority
I gave you the only other option
supple nest
ok
lilac stag
Literally pvp badge
worn ivy
You need to get hoc or pvp badge as on use than u can have seaforium or whatever
lilac stag
Too hard to scroll up?
keen dome
Yeah, it's 700 conquest 🙂
supple nest
ok
keen dome
Warcrates are boxes that spawn in the zones with warmode on. You fly around and grab 'em every 30 - 40 minutes. Check LFG for a groupt o do them in more easily
supple nest
grind 700 conquest, and there is a vendor or something?
lilac stag
No. Upgrade with pve currency
keen dome
Nah, you buy it with 700 conquest.
Then it upgrades like a PvE item - PvP items have set ilevels in PvP, but outside they function identical to any other item 🙂 It caps at 658, but is pretty good until you get HoC.
supple nest
yeah 658 is good
worn ivy
tulip gorge
I'm still in disbelief they left sub to rot
they literally buffed all the bottom specs except sub
keen dome
We'll get an aura buff in our own special notes.
supple nest
tyvm guys, see you
keen dome
Don't hesitate to ask more questions. Someone will be able to help, I'm sure.
tulip gorge
are these special notes in the room with us?
keen dome
are these special notes in the room with us?
I wish
lilac stag
I'm still in disbelief they left sub to rot
worn ivy
did 17 priory last night it was hard af as subtlety
tribal blade
they literally buffed all the bottom specs except sub
for the 2nd time in a row too
which honestly just makes the entire situation hilarious
like they're actually going out of their way to ignore sub
it's so bad when i would usually be getting people pushing back against me complaining, nobody can deny it right now
there's no denying it
wraith solstice
Next Season will be better for sure 
keen dome
It will. It always is.
void hound
lilac stag
it's so bad when i would usually be getting people pushing back against me compl...
We’ve hit the point in the cycle where I’m no longer the “crazy doomer”.
tribal blade
We’ve hit the point in the cycle where I’m no longer the “crazy doomer”.
haha yeah
it's just a fact now
keen dome
We'll get an aura buff soon. I can feel it.
lilac stag
sacred yarrow
We'll get an aura buff soon. I can feel it.
tribal blade
We'll get an aura buff soon. I can feel it.
"We feel like sub has been underperforming in both raid and M+ recently, and to rectify the situation we've decided to give sub a +1% aura buff"
if we do, we ain't getting mage level buffs 😉
keen dome
Hey, that's 1% more!
wide kernel
"We feel like sub has been underperforming in both raid and M+ recently, and to ...
no this is wrong
tribal blade
it IS more
tribal blade
no this is wrong
true, we can go lower
wide kernel
if we do, we ain't getting mage level buffs 😉
"We feel like sub has been underperforming in both raid and M+ recently, and to rectify the situation we've decided to buff ret paladin by 35%"
wide kernel
i am competing with arcanes dps wipe in top
nocturne rose
Now after aug and feral buffs, we can finally be the bottom bitch in raid
tulip gorge
for the 2nd time in a row too
I think it's an ego thing
they nerfed sub at the start
and now they don't want to backpedal
upper rock
Then it upgrades like a PvE item - PvP items have set ilevels *in* PvP, but outs...
do you macro it on sb then? or just use it every 2nd window?
tribal blade
I think it's an ego thing
that would be the most crazy explanation
like some serial killer type shit
wide kernel
i mean its a completely insane thing to buff aug over sub so i believe it
tulip gorge
happened in season 3 of DF when they nerfed assa multiple times
tribal blade
WELL aug is in the absolute gutter right now
tulip gorge
and they only buffed it in season 4
tribal blade
they need buffs
wide kernel
bro everyone and their mom, 4th cousin, dog, cat, reindeer, 4x4 and mailbox hates aug with a passion
but somehow thats higher priority than sub
tribal blade
but yes i hope aug rots in hell
where it belongs
being able to run 3 dps in keys again is heaven
now i don't have to separate a slot out for aug in lfg
NOW when i queue to a key i just see veng+boomy+udk+disc and know i can't get invited because i don't ahve lust 🙂
lilac stag
When does the copium for “no tuning because 11.1.7 rework inc” start?
tulip gorge
they don't even do class changes anymore lmao
they are too busy with the casual content
keen dome
do you macro it on sb then? or just use it every 2nd window?
Macro to SB. treat it as a 1;30 trinket 🙂
upper rock
Macro to SB. treat it as a 1;30 trinket 🙂
ah ok nice, thanks a bunch ! 🙂
tribal blade
When does the copium for “no tuning because 11.1.7 rework inc” start?
there we go
slate marlin
When does the copium for “no tuning because 11.1.7 rework inc” start?
i started 2 weeks ago, im prophets prophet
lilac stag
there’s a chance. They would just revert it back to shadowstrike simulator
tulip gorge
dude it takes them no effort to slap an aura buff until the so called "rework"
lilac stag
Easier to one button spec
lilac stag
And they already have the tech from 6 differnt reworks of the past
merry agate
they're simply incompetent
Probably
but we need something to hold on
lilac stag
“sorry we can’t aura buff sub, there’s not enough data to provide evidence it is or isn’t needed”.
keen dome
Sub is fine in most content anyway, it's just undertuned and.. uh. Maybe they'll fix it
tribal blade
"Sub has decent representation on end bosses, and therefore we don't feel like it needs additional tuning"
keen dome
It's still better than we were in 11.0 so lmao
tulip gorge
“sorry we can’t aura buff sub, there’s not enough data to provide evidence it i...
"just play assassination" - blizzard
lilac stag
oh I just realized not everyone knows the begging for logs history.
tulip gorge
at least I got outlaw now for m+
tribal blade
"The playerbase for sub does not reflect a market that will give us as much revenue as possible, and with the responsibility we hold to our shareholders we cannot in good faith give sub attention when it will detract from specs that give us money"
keen dome
Maybe this is why they won't buff Sub. Everybody immediately dooms so hard.
When Sub is absolutely fine in 99% of content.
merry agate
It's fine
Well after 2 weeks of keys as assa
then sub again... ripping out your leg to do 3/4 the dmg
While singing payphone as assa 🫂 😂
tribal blade
When Sub is absolutely fine in 99% of content.
i think in previous cases yeah that was mostly true
i think in this case it's very not true
according to the numbers
slate marlin
sub has very specific niches
like oab bombs
but other specs are becoming better at it
keen dome
How much of the player base is actually doing that level of content, though?
slate marlin
Minimal
keen dome
Because it's really strong on Heroic.
lilac stag
How much of the player base is actually doing that level of content, though?
With that logic everything is perfect unless getting one shot by WQ mobs
slate marlin
They dont balance around heroic
tribal blade
heroic is kinda "not real"
keen dome
I absolutely agree Sub needs a buff. But the dooming lacks perspective
slate marlin
What perspective
keen dome
heroic is kinda "not real"
Heroic is where the majority of people raid. It's more real than Mythic
lilac stag
heroic is used for balancing for 1 week
slate marlin
they dont balance around hc
tribal blade
true it does have much more players in it
keen dome
If you were going to balance - what would you balance around? The thing that 20 - 30% of the player base do or the thing that 1 - 4% of the player base do?
lilac stag
when theres no hc week
They do on ptr heroic and mythic testing
tulip gorge
are you guys in the bargaining stage of grief?
tribal blade
but i suppose the performance of a spec is not very relevant until you get to the top end of content difficulty
lilac stag
100% they’re looking at that data
tribal blade
where it truly matters
tulip gorge
"maybe we don't deserve buffs because sub is good in +6 keys"
slate marlin
They do on ptr heroic and mythic testing
yes but not 2 momths into the patch
which is whst we are discussing, current tuning
merry agate
But generell question bois...
Is there a consensus?
Whats our biggest Problem?
I feel like some cdr on dance would go a long way to making us more viable 
tribal blade
but yeah i'm pretty sure they do look at heroic to make decisions
lilac stag
current tuning started at preseason
keen dome
where it truly matters
I don't disagree but that's so subjective because where is the top end of content difficulty? What iLevel, what key level? It's more likely they look at Heroic and probably keys around 10 or so and that's their metric.
slate marlin
lilac stag
Now it’s just ignored. Again.
keen dome
That's extremely balanced though
tribal blade
I don't disagree but that's so subjective because where is the top end of conten...
i would say mythic raid and then +12s or higher
they seem to think +12 is the kind of pinnacle of key pushing atm
keen dome
they seem to think +12 is the kind of pinnacle of key pushing atm
yeah that's actually a good point. I agree, 12 is more likely.
tribal blade
and are basing all the top end M+ achievements around 12
slate marlin
That's extremely balanced though
it is, doesnt mean its in a complete different situation thst it is on mythic and thus makes sense to not balance
keen dome
Yeah
tribal blade
it's kind of funny because they're locking the dinars behind +12s timed
which is not the equivalent to mythic raid
keen dome
No it isn't
tribal blade
i would say +15ish would be the equivalent to mythic raid
keen dome
It's strong on Heroic. Everything is. Look at the list you posted. It's extremely balanced haha
When everything is in such close proximity
tribal blade
but super unrealistic
slate marlin
4th from the bottom on hc 2nd bottom on mythic
even if extremely close
its not strong
keen dome
Think about that for a minute
tribal blade
@keen dome
keen dome
<@95119747300995072>
Yeah, that's a better example. On Mythic it is a different story (although representation is an issue too)
tribal blade
looks like sin is the premier rogue spec in heroic
slate marlin
and remeber, specs directly on sub bracket is getting buffed
so sub is going to be even worse
tribal blade
aug might slingshot if the spec becomes good enough to be played
when people realize it's not dead anymore and can start running it again
it'll shoot up
keen dome
That'd be funny if Sub ended below Aug
tribal blade
i dunno if those aug buffs are enough though
slate marlin
which doesnt even matter bc its hc, you can clear it with a raid full of chimpanzees atp of the patch
tribal blade
and dev is VERY strong right now
keen dome
My point is that on Heroic, which is where the majority of people play: Sub is fine. In the average area of keys people play: Sub is fine. Sub isn't fine at much higher levels but such a minority of people play that content that I could see Blizz not caring to balance around it.
tribal blade
so not much reason to run aug
slate marlin
but you cant rly think sub is strong
slate marlin
My point is that on Heroic, which is where the majority of people play: Sub is f...
so whats the point on buffing ret
or frost mage
keen dome
I don't know, I don't work at Blizzard
tulip gorge
My point is that on Heroic, which is where the majority of people play: Sub is f...
man please don't run apologia for blizzard
keen dome
I'm not
slate marlin
every spec in the game, including aug is fine on hc and on 10s
gsme isnt balanced towards the bottom
fallow nimbus
They prepare for the one button rotation. The buffs are happening so one-button-bill can do the same dps as now
slate marlin
you cant look at 1 percentile from.the bottom and say this guys cant do dmg with fire mage lets buff it
Next thing will be saying it doesnt matter if we dont get buffs because we can solo tier 4 delves
slate marlin
idk man, if game was balanced towards hc and weekly 10s 2 months into the patch
there would be no balance tuning at all
because no spec is bad at that level of content
fallow nimbus
Hc boost runs with full mythic equipped teams also skew results
tulip gorge
yeah man the results are skewed only for sub
the other bottom feeder specs are not skewed somehow
and need buffs
fallow nimbus
That was an example that hc metric shouldn't be the factor for class tuning
tulip gorge
idk why people here try so hard to justify what happened
actually what didn't happen
slate marlin
Volcoross incident
fallow nimbus
18%, turbo itemlvls, 3 dinars spend and everything on max
fallow nimbus
1:55 so 2mins don't get 2nd cds
patent crystal
yeah cant allow 2mins to get 2nd use
hazy breach
I think its more likely we end up at 2:30 fights by the end of the tier with all the increases
alpine wraith
1 tank 1 heal rik and kill him before 1st interphase
gritty knot
idk why people here try so hard to justify what happened
Idk that either. Last time I was upset, some guys here made fun of it and posted screenshots in here. I play rogue since Day 1 and have nearly 1k days playtime on my rogue, so if I am upset with the current state of sub rogue and how Blizz handles things I can say so. But sometimes I have a feeling some guys here will defend Blizz with their lives. As if they work for that shit company 😂
alpine wraith
dont worry we have a collage and most of us are there
we can make a v2
when they buff builders and DS again
and maybe assa
just in case
as long as you dont personal attack but just explain your feelings it is fine
fallow nimbus
Double the canvas everytime
hazy breach
Double it and give it to the next guy
fallow nimbus
But assa took it all
dry plank
Ahahahahaha nice upcoming tuning from blizzard. Now it’s clear sub must be at bottom. It is designed that way
paper iron
I think its more likely we end up at 2:30 fights by the end of the tier with all...
I hope gally gonna be 2.30 mn on farm
Hé s boring
hazy breach
Well i was moreso talking about the earlier bosses, gally isnt gonna be 2 min because he has an entire p2 that doesnt need to be there 
hazy breach
I mean theres literally 30s inbetween mechanics in p2
Theres nothing to do besides hitting the boss
paper iron
Yea that s à big issue
hazy breach
And then you run out for 2 seconds, then back in for another 30s
paper iron
It misses deadly tuning and couple différents overlap
If the red circle on the ground where one shot
It would be à totally diff fight already
alpine wraith
they needed to put an etraeus mechanic
then just get the popcorn
have people go from ranged to melee through all the shit and bombs
10s to get there
touch someone else
EVERYONE dies
welcome back sweet 700 pull boss
it worked with uuu nat kek
although the true hardest part was tuning more than that one
paper iron
Our lock pov is gold
Hé just place his camera in birdview the whole p2
And do dummy roation
astral narwhal
Can I just quickly vent here for a second? UNHOLY GOT A FUCKING BUFF AND SUB DIDNT GET TOUCHED?!?! Guys what the fuck is going on?
paper iron
It kinda confirm
That they re working biggest changes on rogue
Or at least we can hope more
haughty mural
nimble bug gone ?
wet lava
brittle plinth
Wasnt aware of the bug, time to search!
paper iron
Oh we talking about lenght
Probably since it released yea
Like bf was coded this way in patch 5.1
So we can assume nimble got also the same treatement on release
north schooner
yeah nimble is just bf in a trench coat after all
celest night
wicked joltBOT
light finch
Maybe some more 10-15% Buffs to Augmentation and Sub is overall Last Place.
haughty mural
It's pinned
its not anymore hence i asked
hazy breach
The nimble bugfix largely doesnt matter
And fazed wasnt fixed like they said it was (and even if it were, its still only like 1% more damage in keys)
So unless theres other bug fixes sub is oof
void ocean
And 1% of 0 is still 0
delicate wind
How do they completely ignore us in tubing is wild
vale pine
they might use diffrent metrics
delicate wind
What other metrics could they use? lol
junior prawn
What other metrics could they use? lol
I was gonna say popularity to dps ratio but if its not a popular spec only dedicated players play it and its still zdps.
near ermine
!wa
wicked joltBOT
hollow spear
I'll make an arcane mage alt, maybe that's the sub that was promised
astral narwhal
I'll make an arcane mage alt, maybe that's the sub that was promised
This, the specs feel similar but arcane pumps, also mage is basically the hero class of this expac
slate marlin
This, the specs feel similar but arcane pumps, also mage is basically the hero c...
and the one before
and the one before before
and the one before before before
all xpacs is mage xpac
astral narwhal
It’s world of mage craft, fuck warriors
jaunty umbra
junior prawn
They not buffing cuz rework Void Rogue 
keen dome
They not buffing cuz rework Void Rogue <:copium:854628182104080414>
gimme
jaunty heath
To use metrics, there’s gotta be data, we just don’t exist
graceful osprey
Bring back nightblade, make gloomblade baseline, blizzard please
keen dome
Purple backstab best backstab
astral narwhal
They not buffing cuz rework Void Rogue <:copium:854628182104080414>
Please god let blizzard higher this man right now to bring us our sacred purple rogues
merry umbra
all i want is DfA to replace ST again
graceful osprey
What if….we get prep back?
proper latch
Oh yeah, DFA... I liked flying under the textures back in Legion
jaunty heath
Shuriken combo
proper latch
All I want is to remove clones from ST
jaunty heath
All I want is to remove clones from ST
How about they are visible in raid first
Before we remove them
fallow nimbus
Yeah, make secret a big hit from our position with a big range
junior prawn
Killing Spree but we become a void bomb explode and die
proper latch
With some cool animation
jaunty heath
And then we just leave the animation and don’t split secret tech damage into the clones
proper latch
Like shadows hitting every target
junior prawn
And then we just leave the animation and don’t split secret tech damage into the...
Big appeal to the class just cuz of that visual to me lol
fallow nimbus
An akaari shadowstrike on all targets hit by secret
jaunty heath
An akaari shadowstrike on all targets hit by secret
Also applies rupture 
graceful osprey
Sub should get shadow clones that copy the rogue’s abilities
fallow nimbus
As an animation
keen dome
Ky'veza animations when
jaunty heath
I would fuck heavy with a shadow clone playstyle, but I doubt that would end well in the spaghetti code
It already is a mess
With 1 akaari soul
Imagine permanently having different shadow clones
keen dome
let me name the shadow clones
fallow nimbus
Just animations
junior prawn
Imagine permanently having different shadow clones <:garf_sit:133488942944931445...
Monks have clones
graceful osprey
Oh yea sub rogues need Ky’Vesa animations
jaunty heath
Monks have clones
They don’t have a lot of interaction like subs soul does
Their clones are more like controllable pets
fallow nimbus
So many opportunities but we will see none
jaunty heath
You can put them on targets n shit
fallow nimbus
Never ever
jaunty heath
So many opportunities but we will see none
Absolutely none
I wish deathstalker was as cool as its logo man
fallow nimbus
"Here have backstab buffs" blizz probably soon
jaunty heath
That was such an opportunity
Instead it ended up in the wonkiest shit possible
Starting out working and getting fucked because they fix a bug for sin
graceful osprey
"Here have backstab buffs" blizz probably soon
It’ll get nerfed
jaunty heath
I still can’t forgive sin for that
fallow nimbus
These poison gargling venom spitters 
junior prawn
🥹
graceful osprey
Sub rogue needs shadow poisons
keen dome
Dark Brew baseline (or much higher) 
graceful osprey
We’re huffing too much Copium, we need to stop
upbeat cradle
I wish gloomblade replaced backstab as a baseline spell just for fantasy
keen dome
Same
upbeat cradle
As it stands out the whole ''using shadows to strike at your enemies'' is barely a thing
graceful osprey
Nightblade should replace rupture and honestly, I think goremaw’s bite should be baseline too
slate marlin
goremaw has no place rn tho
on cds we have no energy issues
out of cds we do wet noodle dmg so it doesnt matter as much
wild hornet
10 sec short +13 top, slavery to the m+ content
void ocean
these guys already on single-button or what 😄
junior prawn
10 sec short +13 top, slavery to the m+ content
its ok the pink class below u will get a buff
hollow spear
Wrong channel
void ocean
what is the state of rogues right now?
our favourite superhero will come to visit us any day now
compact bane
ok...ill just play sub for now until i figure it out lol
lucid jackal
what is the state of rogues right now?
Weak but fun
vestal escarp
what is the state of rogues right now?
Quoting
Assassination is one of the best spec in the game right now
compact bane
Quoting
> Assassination is one of the best spec in the game right now
oh? i like assass too 😄
vestal escarp
#subtlety message
Then
manic sierra
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
round latch
what is the state of rogues right now?
SIn>Sub>>>trashlaw
compact bane
Trashlaw xD
tepid trellis
tuning wise
Assa>outlaw>sub
compact bane
sometimes i wish assass could have trickster
proven plover
really not needed after kb parry change xd
round latch
idk how trickster could fit in Sin's kit
chilly patio
question about damage amps - when we hit something with a damage amp with secret tech or nimble flurry stuff, does the cleave also get amped? for example, if mob A has a 100% extra damage amp, and mob B has normal damage, does targeting mob A deal 100% bonus cleave to mob B?
hazy breach
question about damage amps - when we hit something with a damage amp with secret...
It does not get cleaved no
round latch
tuning wise
Assa>outlaw>sub
big tuning on may the 6th btw,guess who's missing 
chilly patio
It does not get cleaved no
got it, ty 
jaunty heath
big tuning on may the 6th btw,guess who's missing <:kekYOU:822854932192559104>
I wouldn’t call it big tuning it’s like 5 specs if even
But ye
Rogue doesn’t exist
round latch
Rogue doesn’t exist
sub's fine,its how guy says ''fun to play''
💀
can understand how stealthi feels with sin being like this
slate marlin
Rogue doesn’t exist
assa is great, sub is shit, law is weird it just got bugfixed
lucid jackal
I mean rogue is fun idk
slate marlin
ye its fun
lucid jackal
If rogue did 10% more damage across the board nobody would be complaining
It does suck to be undertuned but at least the specs r fun
slate marlin
sub could use more interesting talents as well
lucid jackal
Many specs will be in situations where they both suck to play and don't deal damage
sterile kiln
I find sub so much more fun than sin, that's the only reason I haven't switched yet
manic sierra
theres some fights where sub is just better at too
proven plover
dw we will get a buff like a week before season 3 goes live, which will get reverted first week of the season
alpine wraith
well dont worry guys at least it is not bfa
we were 23% or so behind assa
that was like 20% behind fire mage
jaunty heath
sub's fine,its how guy says ''fun to play''
I mean it is fun, it’s just bumming that the numbers don’t match, doesn’t make it less fun to press buttons
alpine wraith
graph looks silly but even at the worst we are only liek 10% behind top or so
manic sierra
def more fun than sin imo
jaunty heath
Ya it’s not unplayable, besides mugzee probably you aren’t griefing your raid by playing sub
manic sierra
sub feels better on rik reverb mythic
solemn lance
Sub rogue needs shadow poisons
Call it nightshade
vale pine
dw we will get a buff like a week before season 3 goes live, which will get reve...
haha
sterile kiln
just play sub guys my guild has 2 sub rogues and we're progging mugzee
how bad can it be
jaunty heath
Obviously you can kill mugzee as sub too
If your guild struggles to kill playing sin might be a good thing tho
alpine wraith
on bandit with new strat sin loses a cast too depending on teamcomp
vale pine
subtlety is better on the last boss
because all that matters is the first phase of the fight
alpine wraith
also to not die
vale pine
that too^^
wide kernel
there also isnt random forced down time on gally
the only time you can lose downtime is when he moved from the center to the edge, and lets not forget how bugged step is on that boss
hes super desyncd most times he moves
alpine wraith
when he does the aoe where you have to supposedly move away
you can just feint and move 5 y as it is about to explode
then you just drop to like 30%
LUL
alpine wraith
why cloak where you can just feint
save cloak if you do a whoopsie and get hit by rockets or smth
but yea that too we can just skip that mechanic kinda too
honest saddle
How is more tuning without a sub buff possible?
alpine wraith
they are calibrating
if they want to buff 3% or 4%
and lost track of time
like merging the fazed bugfix to prod
whoopsie
RICHARD I FORGOT TO MERGE
dont worry no one plays that hero spec anyway
they wont notice
vale pine
How is more tuning without a sub buff possible?
its easy, the dev team thought subtlety was good enough as is
keep in mint, they might not use the same statistics
honest saddle
So the Dev team is incompetent.
honest saddle
It doesn't make them competent either.
sterile kiln
they know sub players are complete gigachads and they're afraid of unlocking our true potential
proven plover
they just have no idea how to balance our kit without fucking it up is my take
alpine wraith
well they want to do something but our fantasy is getting hammered down every time it seems to resurge
any way or another
seems sub cant be bursty anymore
or well not top 3 bursty
we are like top 10 right
honest saddle
Cant be bursty, cant do sustained damage, can't aoe, cant do st.
But spec is fun.
vale pine
I assume its just because they want to make sure players choose the easier to play spec
and railroad the decision with tuning
dry plank
the guy who tell about pvp was right, if they buff sub rogue damage it will blow pvp aspect with magus, and yes i know that they can tune pve separately but it is too much effort for spec with 10 people as playerbase
chrome palm
pvp is a gamemode with 10 people as playerbase what do you mean
slate marlin
I assume its just because they want to make sure players choose the easier to pl...
what i dont get is why do that
vale pine
it appeals to more players
honest saddle
Only 10 people on spec because tuning is shit. During amirdrassil everyone was sub
vale pine
easier to play specs are the successors of the game
alpine wraith
it was tragic
molten citrus
terrible take
alpine wraith
yea they are hammering down uhdk
dry plank
pvp is a gamemode with 10 people as playerbase what do you mean
and this 10 people cry like a babies so they are vocal enought while pve people sit here and dooming xD
alpine wraith
cant have fun with burst
molten citrus
and this 10 people cry like a babies so they are vocal enought while pve people ...
where do you get these ideas
vale pine
but average player doesnt care about performance
they do
slate marlin
rly?
vale pine
the game is very metric driven
people even in guilds it makes no diffrence will ask people to switch specs
if they think the spec is not the best
often even class
alpine wraith
i mean sometimes it also means you just dont play rogue for a while
slate marlin
why have 3 specs of a dps class then
alpine wraith
whole legion i was stuck playing shadowpriest into other busted shit
apart from 1 boss
where i just did the afk and sac duty
slate marlin
just delete the other 2 if you are always going to tune them to be worse just bc they are harder
alpine wraith
hunter and mage is a cool reminder with 3 good specs after some tuning
warlock got up there too
meanwhile rogue
we'd rather you dont play outlaw or sub
slate marlin
rogue is a onetrick class too
vale pine
why have 3 specs of a dps class then
you would be surprised the entire discussions is years old
e.g. legion and bfa had only one spec as the played in raids
chrome palm
warlock got up there too
this is like the most warlock friendly tier in recent memory as well
alpine wraith
well maybe some years ago but nowadays most people that play rogue at a super high kinda need to have a dh/war/ww etc too
vale pine
which means the other 2 might as well would not exist and it would have made no diffrence
alpine wraith
just because we get cucked constantly
alpine wraith
this is like the most warlock friendly tier in recent memory as well
so many destro fights
slate marlin
could be like mage tho, theres a clear best spec atm, but the other 2 specs are extremely close
chrome palm
most of the fights are tailor made warlock fights
slate marlin
i dont see frost mage and decline just bc its not arcane
alpine wraith
the buff to arcane was not super big but with more gear they hit like freight trains
and do the most important job that no one does well nowadays suddenly
they are peak
also comes with being immortal as mage too
slate marlin
maybe they will dumb subt next rework idk
alpine wraith
they might
i mean they actually overcomplicated sub
in mop/wod that was peak sub was not super hard or complicated
you just hit dance
ambushed if you could evised if you could
big dmg
go next
chrome palm
just rework deathstalker
alpine wraith
now you need to spin 4 plates kinda for new players or not experienced it seems like black magic
vale pine
i find it funny that subtlety got its priority damage niche heavily nerfed in bfa
slate marlin
i wouldnt mind to play a more simple subt as long as its still purple
alpine wraith
we kinda went below the radar in legion
vale pine
when assassiantion, arcane mage and others now do similar absurd funnel
alpine wraith
because no one cared that much about m+
i had lots of fun doing high m+ back then
then BfA killed all enjoyement
chrome palm
deathstalker with some sort of prio outside of mark would be interesting
alpine wraith
deathstalker has some prio with our ruptures on other targets and bp going to into main target
but it is not touch of the magi
vale pine
i just think development does not fall a specific practice
many decisions are not considering the entire enviroment
and it leads to problems
chrome palm
surely it would be so much better to just let you press black powder in deathstalker
vale pine
but you can fix most of them with tuning
chrome palm
to consume dn
astral narwhal
Considering what we have seen this expac so far, what’s the over under of sub finally being the go to spec in season 3?
proven plover
never mind the reasoning, the fact is it feels like devs completely abandoned the spec for the time being
lucid jackal
Considering what we have seen this expac so far, what’s the over under of sub fi...
It was the go to spec in season 1. And early prog of season 2
It was also the go to spec for all of amirdrasil, being the literal hero class of the Tier
It was also the best spec in aberus
And it was the best spec in vault
So the term "finally" I don't think is apt
vale pine
its all just about tuning
paper iron
and trust him
astral narwhal
So what your telling me is it’ll be overshadowed for the foreseeable future
tepid trellis
they for sure did overnerf assa in amirdrassil
lucid jackal
So what your telling me is it’ll be overshadowed for the foreseeable future
..?
No
Just saying "when will we finally be viable" is a bit dramatic
Sub has been very consistently strong, it's just a bit shit rn
proven plover
they for sure did overnerf assa in amirdrassil
you mean thats why they are overcompensating rn?
paper iron
they for sure did overnerf assa in amirdrassil
Unerf kingsbane let it stack to the moon again me getting pi please i beg it s not healthy for the game but good for my mental health
lucid jackal
It's rng what spec ends up on top
paper iron
specially now kb cant be parried
chrome palm
unless its dramatically undertuned in s3 it will still be useful for some fight to kill some add spawn in prog
vale pine
one thing to not forget when talking df
the main reason subtelty was plyed in most seasons was just results of initial tuning
both seaosn 1 and 3 had assassiantion/outlaw tuned higher initially but struk by nerfs heavily
making sub better as a consequence
lucid jackal
Yeah?
vale pine
this is very diffrent to this xpac where tuning was never noticably in favor of subtlety
lucid jackal
In nerubar it was just the better spec tho
vale pine
nobody would have played it without the nerfs tho
pastel rampart
sub has been below aug since bfa
alpine wraith
for some people sub being decent first 3 weeks is enough
paper iron
actually since tbc, aug was so bad it wasnt appearing in any situations. Real and factual
alpine wraith
to not consider it underperforming later
vale pine
you will have a high play rate