it sucks that sub is neglected
#subtlety
wide kernel
lofty lance
blizzard never liked sub rogue
worn ivy
What comp they play as sin
wide kernel
Alas I am onetrick tho
worn ivy
Probably vdh - boomy - dk - priest
tepid trellis
it sucks that sub is neglected
wide kernel
https://tenor.com/view/hang-first-time-smiles-gif-14991372
I am new, yes
worn ivy
Im expecting subtlety nerfs at this point ☠️
wide kernel
But new to a onetricking a neglected class? No sir, we endure
tepid trellis
whats gonna happen is in a few months they announce the new tier shit, we again have a strong tierset + we get a buffed baseline cuz we blow right now, so we look good during prepatch and then we get nerfed 1 week before season launch
same as every other season
random hare
What comp they play as sin
u can play anything with sin
wide kernel
Somehow Aug is loved more than us
worn ivy
Dm me high key build sin
I may try 2
Moro btw do i need to change all stats etc ?
How do u survive low versa
As sin ?
tepid trellis
evasion DR and feint
wide kernel
whats gonna happen is in a few months they announce the new tier shit, we again ...
Is this really the reality though, every season it's this bad?
tepid trellis
Deathstalker got that extra dr shit
tepid trellis
Is this really the reality though, every season it's this bad?
its not always "this" bad, but we do tend to get nerfed in prepatch cuz we seem a bit too good
worn ivy
Feels like rogue scale bad with i level in general
wide kernel
its not always "this" bad, but we do tend to get nerfed in prepatch cuz we seem ...
Is there ever any tuning mid patch like this?
tepid trellis
yes
wide kernel
I swear mmo companies are so bad at tuning burst specs
I come from swtor where only the dot classes were ever respected
tepid trellis
they were bad at tuning rogue when we werent bursty
wide kernel
Bro sub wouldn't even be broken
tepid trellis
so its was like neutral +- 1%
but then they nerfed us by 8% going into the tier for no reason
wide kernel
People can't play it in mid keys at all
tepid trellis
so
well if that tierset went live
funny stuff wouldve happened
it wasent healthy for the game
but it was funny af
dawn summit
they're bad at balancing all the low playrate classes
worn ivy
We define as bursty but
Mm does burst opener than sub smh
wide kernel
Aug is literally above us in raid
dawn summit
sub's niche is just flat out irrelevant in farm/late prog this tier
unluck
go next
tepid trellis
95th percentile
tepid trellis
5th last in HC
lofty lance
theres no way right?
lofty lance
big deeps
worn ivy
Another problem in m+
We holding too much
Sometimes because of stuations
I can show many times i had to use dance symbols when flag and blades ready
tepid trellis
personally i think they should shift our dmg to be from shadow dance mostly, and just have flag/blades be enablers for a tiny bit more omph
lofty lance
we need old dance cdr back
worn ivy
U dont wanna sent on 3 dogs but if u sent dance symbols sectech only you delay your next flag window
This is biggest sub problem
wide kernel
personally i think they should shift our dmg to be from shadow dance mostly, and...
Like I said I'm new and the class feels like it's legit broken outside of cds. Like something is wrong
worn ivy
Tea needs rework
wide kernel
If tea was a mid tree talent and on use instead of automatic I think we would be fine
lofty lance
could be userfull in downtime
tepid trellis
and 19.3% mastery is "okay" but it competed with CB
so its just bad
not when our downtime does 0 dmg
and most of our cdr comes from natural cdr from just time between cds not finishers outside of dances
patent lichen
Tea should be used to fix energy outside of cds
Huh?
tepid trellis
it was only in raid it was used for it
and that was when we werent bursty at all
but we were some flatline abomnation
gloomblade spamming lookin ass spec
lofty lance
its ok guys, I emailed blizzard to buff sub rogue next tuning, we'll be fine
tepid trellis
combine gloomblade and linering shadow
and you almost have my Evis dmg
yep
DEF what sub is supposed to be
right now all of our dmg is just loaded into Flag windows
so anything that increases it outside of those
are just not good choices
i think they need to tune down the power of flag/blades and put that power into dance instead
little less peak burst but bursty more often
wide kernel
According to them the rp is going in and out of stealth so yeah ig
tepid trellis
when they decide to look at data again
so could be anywhere from next monday
to next tier
wide kernel
I guess my question is why didn't they do something the last time they looked at data
jaunty umbra
dead spec duh
tepid trellis
I guess my question is why didn't they do something the last time they looked at...
cuz sub was middle of the pack in HC!
and was the go to spec for most of prog
cuz it was the least shit out of the 3 rogue specs
but now assa got buffed
so
short radish
yeah but it's fine because sub was nerfed and was still #1 in the first week of raid
therefore nerfs are justified
wide kernel
Also I'm playing human, is the orc racial really that much better opposed to +2% vers/mast/haste
tepid trellis
it gives like 6.5k stats every 3min as sub so its quite good
wide kernel
It's every 2 minutes no?
tepid trellis
we use cds every 1:30
hazy breach
The human racial isnt +2% really. Its 2% additional stats. so it takes your 20k mastery to 20400 mastery and so on
tepid trellis
so its turns into a 3min for us
hazy breach
Its not taking you from 30% crit to 32% crit for example
tepid trellis
so yeh orc racial increases our dmg in cds therefor it very good
wide kernel
Ah yeah ok
tepid trellis
wide kernel
I wanted to try that for tfd
tepid trellis
meld into stealth only works on trash
lofty lance
i could drop combat with meld on Grim batol first boss
tepid trellis
but its finnicky
hazy breach
i could drop combat with meld on Grim batol first boss
Yes because he wasnt considered a boss for some reason
wide kernel
It's like this, a mob is at 3%, I've been trying to vanish right before it dies to get tfd where I normally can't stealth
Not sure you can Sim the value of that or not and that would feel like a big dps loss compared to the damage racials
It feels like you're in combat 1200ms after stuff dies anyway too
oak grotto
What is the talent so you can sometimes send 2 spenders back to back
wide kernel
What is the talent so you can sometimes send 2 spenders back to back
Shadow techniques
quaint verge
how much better is assa in raid compared to sub? do i swap?
tepid trellis
What is the talent so you can sometimes send 2 spenders back to back
Shadowcraft, bottom row spec talent
tribal blade
its doing the same dps as week 2
imagine being the only spec at the bottom of the raid charts to not get tuning
pure jay
does anyone happen to have an equivalent of this for nimble flurry?
molten citrus
I get that, but idk how far out it spreads around
hit dummies to get a feel for it
pure jay
hit dummies to get a feel for it
my brain dont work like that
lean steeple
wraith sphinx
2 daggers = more funny technique procs = more combo points = happier days ahead full of sunshine
molten citrus
because of shadow techniques
lean steeple
roger dodger
thank you
is it normal to feel like a pensioner in between cooldowns as sub?
rocky ocean
I feel like 
between cooldowns
wide kernel
roger dodger
85% of subs dps is in cds so yeah
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".
short radish
honestly
the down time is great
it's perfect time for you to do a min stretch for your fingers and hand
youre not young anymore
quaint verge
probably been asked already, but is there a playstyle difference between The Rotten or Finality?
lilac stag
No. Just in aoe using a single storm to spread find weakness with Rotten
dark cedar
Should we use finishers at 5 combo points when in shadow dance / Subtefurge?
or it is ok to waste combo points with shadowstrike?
hollow spear
Finish at 6+
tulip wharf
Hi guys, had a couple of questions regarding rotation and macro which I hoped to clarify here.
My understanding is that you always cast backstab after shadowdance to trigger Danse Macabre, both in ST/AOE and both inside / outside big 90s cooldowns.
Is this a fair statement to make or does it have major flaws?
Second question is regarding Symbols of Death. How big of a dps loss is it to macro it to Shadow Dance given that most times the two need to be used together?
lilac stag
Hi guys, had a couple of questions regarding rotation and macro which I hoped to...
Don’t macro them. You’re shooting yourself in the foot.
!burst
wicked joltBOT
During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.
tulip wharf
I must be doing something very wrong then timing wise, cause I just find myself having the 2nd Secret Technique aligning with both SD and SoD, and hence it’s casted supercharged
upbeat cradle
Are you using the first dance ? Could be that
tulip wharf
Yes
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals of during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
tulip wharf
I got it, I was in m+ talents build and hence using TFD, so they were naturally aligning
Ok, in single target talents, it’s very clear why the two should not be macroed together.
One more question If I may, is it safe to assume to always backstab to proc DM after shadowdance in all scenarios? Or is there a more nuanced logic to follow there? 🙂
short radish
Ok, in single target talents, it’s very clear why the two should not be macroed ...
if your target doesnt have find weakness AND you dont have rotten/your backstab isnt stabbing from behind (aka you won't proc find weakness)
you should shadowstrike
tulip wharf
got it, thank you !
thorn oxide
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
placid wasp
would you say sub is in a good bad or average state right now?
short radish
would you say sub is in a good bad or average state right now?
4 out of the 9 ppl who play sub have swapped to assi
we got nerfed week -1 of raid so we could settle in last place for dps
how do you think sub is atm 🙂
alpine wraith
could be better but some people say it was good for prog(5 weeks ago) so it is fine
placid wasp
how do you think sub is atm 🙂
i like it, feels pretty good in keys
short radish
yeah sub is fun
lilac stag
Assa is good performance wise.
short radish
its just not in a good state
hexed sluice
Feeling the lack of shaman as the weeks go on and the mage dh are starting to compete with me in my group for overall and boss damage. They are just scaling and I am not
lilac stag
the mage and DH should be beating you. The mage especially if equal skill and no shaman
hexed sluice
Im still like 10 item levels ahead right now
hexed sluice
I'm the only one that pugs early season for fun
But does suck to just feel like my damage doesn't change while I can see the big jumps in theirs
lilac stag
insert versatility specs don’t scale meme
raw pebble
4 out of the 9 ppl who play sub have swapped to assi
Me included. Still I miss sub even if sin can squeeze out more numbers...
alpine wraith
we are the last bastion
padding the engagement metrics by doing hc raid and 8 M+ a week
short radish
keen dome
Not silly enough for me
vale pine
would you say sub is in a good bad or average state right now?
it basically ended up in the predicted state
its not bad or terrible
but you find little reason to ever play it
worn ivy
I was doing some test last night what if i tell u even outlaw does more st than sub its actually disgusting we need immidietly buff
Do something @vale pine
You have connections
shy ermine
It’s even worse when you’re forced to hit the front of the boss
How we have positional requirements in 2025 is a mystery to me
vale pine
nobody in here can make a decision on balance
its up to blizz and they decided sub was well tuned
brave moth
!wa
wicked joltBOT
clear osprey
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
formal helm
When sub buffs bois
rocky ocean
NEVER
formal helm
placid wasp
do i shuriken storm as the second spender in dance? (in aoe)
lilac stag
If you have the rotten talented yes
tulip wharf
Feels like you can do same (or more) dps as assa in m+ with 50% of effort given rotation is much smoother 😣😣
split path
Hello guys ! Do you think it's can be a good trinket for us plz ?
split path
And what remplace ? House of card or Pacemaker ?
short radish
oh
wait
are you being serious
because if you are, sorry i was trolling
it's item level is too low for it to be good
at one point it was one of our bis trinkets
many seasons ago
split path
yeah im remember it's for that i asking
short radish
yeah if it was on champ track maybe it'd replace pacemaker
but house of cards is too good
hoary bloom
anyone remembers what u have to select on raidbots to check which gem combinatios coudl be better than the ones u got rn?
solar glen
anyone remembers what u have to select on raidbots to check which gem combinatio...
Just select 13 Pairs of Gems?
swift tinsel
and Replacing Existing Gems/Enchants box checked
worn ivy
new cook
deeper daggers over darkbrew?
also what i go tea and swap gear to crit mastery
this is with tea. https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/1nKJ1YkFH2tsB2QmUMr9Jv
crit sims higher than agility 😛
any tc guy ?
can we make the spec does atleast some damage outside of cds?
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jQWwNg7DNPKWwpYmdwoihf deeper daggers - darkbrew https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tPSTSo9GhSn75Mp316JjhP
short radish
fallow nimbus
Of course crit sims high when you remove the guaranteed crit for storm
short radish
Probably belongs there
lilac stag
Probably belongs there
No it doesn’t.
presenting apl optimizations and changes are. Not random sims
For example: Every single secondary is likely higher for assa than agility.
Crit > Agi. This isn’t exactly surprising when you remove everything that sub uses for crit in talents.
just stop giving a shit about your stat weights.
swift tinsel
petition to remove stat weight sims entirely so people stop getting hung up on them
swift tinsel
I don't see how they're more useful than Top Gear or Droptimizer
which can tell you contextualized information
dusty totem
When using top gear and droptimizer u don't see why a peice of gear is better only that it is better
because u change more than 1 variable at a time
swift tinsel
If you think about it for a second its pretty easy to tell why its better
dusty totem
No
swift tinsel
Yes
dusty totem
You are making untested assumptions when doing that
But it is whatever i agree alot of peps are using stat weights wrong
short radish
yeah i use stat weights from time to time when gearing up alts
and my gear is really wonky
and i dont know what to prio target
lilac stag
Ilvl. 
short radish
cant run top gear when you dont have any gear
yeah but i can choose which dungeon drops better stats
i mean i suppose i could just sim every single dungoen
that sim is lying there
but sometimes simple information is easy
lilac stag
it legit didn’t matter except for farming trinkets or maybe a one off (mage bracers)
Alt = get gear
short radish
it's also good to know how down bad i am for sin with my vers mastery gear
lilac stag
Worry about bis gloves later
short radish
tl;dr in dungeon slice nothing matters ecks dee
lilac stag
And you’re not. Assa don’t care
short radish
yeah
lilac stag
So once again. Useless
short radish
but!
it let me know it was useless!
therefore giving it use
if it wasnt there, i might have always wondered
dusty totem
Information is never the issue interpretation is
lilac stag
Making gearing decisions on said info is the issue
dusty totem
That would be an interpretation problem tho
U would be assuming that stat weights are constant
lilac stag
And classic Andy’s have issues of letting go
short radish
graceful osprey
Anyone tried that junkmaetro trinket that stacks to 30?
short radish
no but its probably junk
graceful osprey
It’s listed as “A” tier on wowhead but was just curious about if people have tried it and how they feel about it
short radish
you want house of cards/pvp trinket + any random trinket
the tier list on wowhead is as useful as stat weights
and if you read up to the convo we've just had
stat weights are pretty useless
in fact tier lists only exist as click bait
for google searches
writers are forced to put it in there
graceful osprey
Yeah I have house of cards but debating on the first boss trinket or the junk maestro
short radish
swift tinsel
House of cards is considerably better than either
lilac stag
House of cards is considerably better than either
Assuming second trinket here hoss
swift tinsel
ah in that case it doesn't matter
lilac stag
lol
graceful osprey
I simmed it and house and junk maestro sims higher for me, but since it stacks to 30x I was curious if it’s better to use it at 30 or just off cd since it comes off cd like every 20 seconds or something
lilac stag
Does one save you 15 crests? Get that one.
short radish
how much higher does it sim?
swift tinsel
it takes ~2mins to stack so you can just kinda send it whenever
short radish
how much % higher
graceful osprey
how much higher does it sim?
Ehh it’s not that much higher, only slightly
lilac stag
I simmed it and house and junk maestro sims higher for me, but since it stacks t...
The sim will show you where it uses it
swift tinsel
iirc when I was simming it it often sent around 18-20 stacks
short radish
Ehh it’s not that much higher, only slightly
is it really worth all
- The brain power to think about whether to use instead of just sending 1st boss trinket on cd
- This brain power thinking about whether to use it or not
yes i know we do a lot of degen shit for 0.6% dps gain
lilac stag
- Get energy drink
swift tinsel
^^
short radish
but this is not one of those times where it's worth
swift tinsel
still chasing hero track
lilac stag
- Just play assa
short radish
because youre not going to be using that trinket forever
graceful osprey
The sim will show you where it uses it
Ahh, then I just need to read it more
short radish
- get seaforium bomb trinket
but yeah i'd be surprised if the difference was more than 0.6%
lilac stag
Ahh, then I just need to read it more
The example sim will show you trinket usage. The one with sblades is HoC. The other is the other. Look at buffs on right side to see stack count.
swift tinsel
be aware of which trinket is in which slot when simming
lilac stag
It shouldn’t matter. Sim should auto force HoC
haughty mural
I'd also rather use vexxie instead of maestro if sims close
sharp lake
I’m curious, why does sub scale so poorly with ilevel?
lucid jackal
Because people overestimate how scaling works
hazy breach
Sub was good w1 because it already had effectively its bis trinket and could craft a weapon
obtuse shard
I thought i was a god w1, gapping my guild so hard
hazy breach
Also sub is very good at doing burst "padd" damage to adds in a really short timeframe (sometimes its needed, like on rik) which makes it look better on overall statistics than it is on pure ST
ember gate
I play sub for the class fantasy as a trickster. 
hazy breach
So when the job of needing to burst down adds quickly is less important, the focus shifts towards the ST damage, which is lackluster for sub
rocky ocean
bad st and aoe
chrome palm
sub suffers from ww being good
chrome palm
sin and dev dont really do the same thing as sub though
jaunty heath
swift tinsel
and they're owning rik barrels and reel assistants/bombs
chrome palm
this is bandit, dev isnt really going that crazy on bombs, maybe just my group though
swift tinsel
yeah, less so bombs but reels as sc they're very good
chrome palm
that doesnt make sub any worse though
if thats what you were saying, maybe i misread
swift tinsel
It doesn't necessarily make it worse, just others are covering sub's previous niche and offer more upside
vale pine
scaling these days comes mostly from tier set and items
pure stat scaling makes little diffrence unless you get excessive amounts of stats
plain oasis
i feel like i do less damage when i replace eviserate with BP in big packs
has subs talents changed from what is posted on wowhead? its 2 months old
swift tinsel
we haven't had anything change for us really in the past 2 months that would impact talent choices
wide kernel
i feel like i do less damage when i replace eviserate with BP in big packs
you should be seeing 15-22mil on big packs w/ bp
vital flax
is there a way to sim flasks? or do i need to do 3 separate sims?
swift tinsel
Should be consumable profile sets in the tc channel
swift tinsel
is there a way to sim flasks? or do i need to do 3 separate sims?
#tc-research message here ya go, do an Advanced Sim and paste the flask ones below your simc input
brave moth
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
rapid pecan
!wa
wicked joltBOT
wide kernel
What's realistically a decent parse from cinderbrew look like at 13? (W/ at least shaman)
3.5? 4?
meager coyote
!tricks
wicked joltBOT
Smart tricks WA on tank, this require the following macro:
/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 1
/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 0
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vnizSSXiBqnkXQ7omibSHM can someone explain me this
i dont get it
hazy breach
Nothing matters
graceful rock
looking at some sprocket logs, i noticed there's a short delay in CD usage around the 3rd use, is this just to make sure you're not assigned a foot blaster?
worn ivy
Nothing matters
do i need to use mana oil + bubbling wax or what
graceful rock
no its because you move other side
i see that
hazy breach
do i need to use mana oil + bubbling wax or what
Its literally the same as 2x whetstone
graceful rock
looks like the same for the next set of CDs too
hazy breach
Everything that isnt orange (or green depending on what youre comparing too) is pretty much identical
hazy breach
What
worn ivy
this consumable sim
hazy breach
hazy breach
You did choose
worn ivy
ohh i actually i did
chosed d/slice
mb mb
didnt see
3k dps does not matter
thats what u ment right
swift tinsel
Statistically insignificant difference
You can look on the right and see the margin of error
In some cases
Like Eleem said they’re color coded
hazy breach
If you sim again, its can be 3k the other way around
Its such a small difference that its not worth the sim taking 100x as long to figure out with more precision how much better it is
When the practical difference is nonexistant anyway
swift tinsel
same thing happens with gems/enchants so its not worth obsessing over
worn ivy
hmm
i do trust sims i guess it tells me to play more crit
versa
and less mastery
so i swapped some crafted items to crit versa
swift tinsel
glacial orbit
this consumable sim
where did you get that
swift tinsel
random hare
https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/316923898501529600/1365823229884...
my guy sent a link to a link that links into the consumable sim profile
random hare
dave guy
how did u get ur pfp into wowhead or rio on aprilfools
are u a wowhead guy or someshit
swift tinsel
random hare
swift tinsel
Oh I'm sure they do
swift tinsel
handsome squidward warlock
swift tinsel
lmao yeah
I link that pic in our guild discord whenever I make fun of the rets
and how dumb empyrean hammer is
random hare
swift tinsel
one of them tries to make outlaw or sin comparable
with bte or ct
then someone else shared this whole reddit poem calling rets dumb as fuck lol
its actually kinda funny
glacial orbit
https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/316923898501529600/1365823229884...
ty
swift tinsel
right dude its fucking gold
swift tinsel
He is him
random hare
tribal blade
i just noticed this new dagger from the nightfall thing
wonder if there's any way to get that on hero track
alpine wraith
no idea tbh
tribal blade
seems like raw ilvl on OH beats it's effect
round latch
havent seen a hero path loot from nightfall fam
tribal blade
on 658-665
round latch
all champion and veteran
tribal blade
i thought that effect might add up to a decent amount of damage, robot says no
round latch
short radish
i thought that effect might add up to a decent amount of damage, robot says no
thank fuck
dont need to do any degen farming
tribal blade
lol true
vestal escarp
Gm subtlety specialization
spiral pewter
!FUU
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
worn ivy
where did you get that
Tc channel
tribal blade
Gm subtlety specialization
?
vestal escarp
<:BleedBuild:1358218723986509834> ?
wild hornet
Is the Akali soul hit on sectec based on the target or the players position
hazy breach
Around the target
wild hornet
Do you know how big the range is
Like very close proximity like empyrean hammer or something further
lilac stag
<:CT:1196848066393821324>
final holly
i thought that effect might add up to a decent amount of damage, robot says no
I wonder if it's any better on a dark brew build
latent finch
darkbrew doesnt work on external dmg sources so should not make a difference
final holly
Neat that also answers the question I had next which was if dark brew would affect the corruptions if any of those did shadow damage
latent finch
I think rn only lingering darkess works like that and we dont touch that as sub
final holly
That's the talent which buffs damage after our burst is over, right?
Not sure what the point of that talent ever was
latent finch
Its pretty good for assa
final holly
I can imagine it maybe working on vexie
Because the amp lasts longer than SB
But that's it
lucid jackal
Its just a talent that gives more damage after cooldowns. Theres been a bunch of effects like this in the game
latent finch
Yea its pretty boring
hazy breach
On sub its not even that much better than the alternative, we would probably play symbolic victory if it wasnt bugged and worked correctly on shadowed finishers
lament moss
hey guys what flask do yall use with sub rogue?
lilac stag
You can sim them using consumable input in #tc-research
Versa or Alchemical are both typically good choices.
spiral pewter
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
dense forge
what is the simulation sheet about?
frank narwhal
Does anyone know how I can keep standing in Shaynemail's Brutal Smash without being hit at all? No dmg, no stun, nothing. Not using evasion, just feint.
Is it possible to just straight up dodge it, or is it bugged somehow?
hazy breach
Probably just dodging it natty
Since we have ~15% passive dodge chance or so as agility users
frank narwhal
Yeah I guess that's it, was just really odd to have dodged it 6 times in a row after several back to back runs
warm pond
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
rocky ocean
torpid harbor
!wa
wicked joltBOT
lucid jackal
Tww sin
Midnight outlaw
Last titan sub
What do you mean
sullen hare
how it's really gonna be:
tww ret
midnight ret
last titan ret
lucid jackal
Hasn't sub been stronger for most of tww?
fallow nimbus
Strong doesn't mean favourited
lucid jackal
Idk what that means in this context
final holly
The more keys I do with friends the more I swear sub is goated for carrying weekly keys with mid players. You have boss damage, you have burst to remove tough packs and you have prio damage for lieutenants
sullen hare
yeah sub is fine
lucid jackal
Yeah sub is nice in keys when shit dies in Ur Cd's
final holly
Just especially compared to specs like ret, Ret gets big overall but can't really impact the key
Overall andy
(I'm probably biased because I spend more time playing sub and so am better at sub than anything else)
haughty rose
at about how many seconds left on flag/blades CD do you stop using dance and symbols to have 2 charges ready when they come off CD?
final holly
30s, but also you just need to get a feeling for when you can use 2 SDs out of CDs Vs 1
warm wren
!mistakes
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals of during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
rocky ocean
sub buffs
keen trellis
hello, when playing 2 one use, when do we use the 2nd trinket like geargrinder? just on CD?
hazy breach
Whenever, as long as it doesnt interfere with our stat on-use for cds
sullen hare
It'll happen on the 366th day of the calendar year
kind bluff
Always does
200% buff to back powder and 150% nerf to everything else.
Our other abilities now heal mobs
cursive vapor
!burst
wicked joltBOT
During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.
kind bluff
Idk why but I'm struggling on bandit. I just can't figure out where I'm missing damage.
plush roost
If you're only getting 4-5 globals on the 1:40 set of bombs your value goes down, should also have a dance for every reel assistant to cleave dps with boss
Depends on comp but if you're playing like sub ww unholy ww
You're all stepping on eachothers toes
worn ivy
Subtlety does more than boomy in cinder confirmed.. Almost dk damage 🙂
ebon oyster
!guide
past marlin
Subtlety does more than boomy in cinder confirmed.. Almost dk damage 🙂
@worn ivy Master of Shadows? Cursed talent i think
worn ivy
trust
can use feint ETC during dance
just because of master of shadows
TFD uptime bad in cinder
wep master doesnt realy do anytthing
there will be a stuation where u wanna kill bombs and feint the hobgoblin aoe so
past marlin
understandable, everybody play assa in this key
half remnant
I've started wondering, I see that we all almost run The Rotten on the keys. What is the reason for it? I don't see that much value in it.
lucid jackal
Spreads fw
past marlin
I tested cinder with tea and it didn't feel bad. Also weaponmaster and rotten
lilac stag
WM is useless in keys
worn ivy
what key level @past marlin
lilac stag
Tea isn’t doing anything useful
random hare
Subtlety does more than boomy in cinder confirmed.. Almost dk damage 🙂
you removed first dance?
kinda cooked or
tfd very op and can bug out and proc in combat too
with certain vanish timings
magic ravine
any particular reason for finality over the rotten? seeing some sprocket myth logs with it
lucid jackal
It does more damage
lilac stag
Finality is better in raid.
magic ravine
well hot dang, so 70% including me just slow?
lilac stag
if you want to be self deprecating sure
or people just copy paste a top log without understanding they may have just had better rng while not having “best” talents selected.
or you realize how many of the sub talents are shit and don’t really matter much.
Take your pick.
lilac stag
11.1.5 parses are people already playing the lowest tuned of the three yellow specs. “Fun” and optimizing talents don’t always go hand in hand
Ooops I forgot to change off m+ talents.
Here’s my rank 1 over 30 other rogues
past marlin
what key level <@393098349558890497>
I only tested it on 12-13 not high enough
grave delta
Is there a faster version of the opener I can do on gally to have cds back at 3mins
haughty rose
Is there a faster version of the opener I can do on gally to have cds back at 3m...
you mean for the total destruction phase? i'm currently trying to figure out too if lining up all CD's with BL is worth it for gally. the logs of top sub rogues i checked only delay the second CD phase a bit. probably to get more cleave damage on the adds. not a single one i checked lined up big CD's with total destruction and therefore BL
meager coyote
!wa
wicked joltBOT
meager coyote
so the shadowcraft refund can't be just important natty? 🤔
could I just natty import it and replace the sound and it will work?
lucid jackal
Is there a faster version of the opener I can do on gally to have cds back at 3m...
U can't make Cd's faster on sub
grave delta
yeah maybe u cant
lucid jackal
you mean for the total destruction phase? i'm currently trying to figure out too...
I literally just sent Cd's on cd all of prog
Use cloak it's op
grave delta
time to pay off my hpal
lucid jackal
What?
haughty rose
I literally just sent Cd's on cd all of prog
probably the safest bet, yeah
haughty rose
ah
good call yeah
is this time fixed or does it depend on dps?
warm marlin
you mean for the total destruction phase? i'm currently trying to figure out too...
are you referring to heroic since ur talking about lining up with BL
i think I remember holding a bit in heroic to line up with add spawns
haughty rose
yeah heroic
shy orbit
should i be cleaving off the boss on myth oab?
pearl charm
is there a target count where shuriken storm + BP spam is best? guide seemingly says no on wowhead, but I feel like theres gotta be a point?
worn ivy
i drop tfd only for cinderbrew @random hare w
hazy breach
Pretty sure 4 seconds of dance on the first pull is gonna end up being significantly more than 15% more damage on shadowstrike and backstab on your overall
Even if you assume that you'll never get a reset (but you absolutely will after bosses)
haughty mural
besides in raid
final holly
Even in raid depending on how fast you kill bosses tbqh
haughty mural
true
lethal gale
when does tfd beat out wm on a patchwork fight anyone know roughly?
plush roost
About 4.5mins iirc, at least thats how it was in season 1
swift tinsel
Below 3-3.5min Tfd wins in patchwork iirc
lethal gale
nice
hazy breach
Below 3-3.5min Tfd wins in patchwork iirc
Nah its closer to 5 min now
lofty lance
need sub rogue buffs and dev evoker nerfs pls
haughty mural
why nerfs
just tune us a bit
or revert nerfs .. like stacks on tset and sectech nerf
lofty lance
when will there be a tuning patch? I'ts been a while
didnt they use to do big tuning on .5 patches?
hazy breach
lofty lance
or im I tripping
hazy breach
Also its been 1½ week since they last did tuning
wide kernel
whats the disparity between thousand cuts and flickerstrike?
swift tinsel
Nah its closer to 5 min now
Really? The last few times I looked into it it was always around 3-3.5
Granted it’s been a month or so since I last ran it
hazy breach
Ye i think it was like a month or so i fixed it
hazy breach
Because it ended up using sectech at the end of the first dance sometimes
And it wouldnt send the second one
Since sectech was on cd
swift tinsel
plush roost
Silly robot doesn't even know the rules
woeful locust
your nimble flurry is bugged
leaden prairie
Noob spec haha
covert storm
it kinda hits the sub vibes that their spells are hitting the shadows of their dead enemies idk
thematic frfr
tepid trellis
Nimble Flurry bug
Its a bug that causes Nimble Flurry to hit less targets than intended (Blade Flurry has the same bug) and the current speculation is that its trying to hit dead targets
swift tinsel
Lmfao
hexed sluice
Is that also why nimble flurry sometimes tags certain packs consistently even though they are over 60 yards away
leaden prairie
All the logs I have looked at, it's after targets are dead, and it's the same on my clip, I start hitting less target as soon as my target counter goes down steslthi
hexed sluice
Like that side pack in TOP on the way to caster boss, or the mobs on the leftside of final room in Priory
leaden prairie
I think we have enough evidences
meager coyote
lads is there a chance I can have just the adjusting unseen blade stacks into coup the grace WA shared with me or do I have to download a whole package and extract it myself?
hollow plinth
nice pin
lucid jackal
dont worry we have *player housing* to make up for no tuning patches
Well there was a tuning pass a few weeks ago
It's just sub wasn't included
lilac stag
tribal blade
blizz really went out of their way to ignore sub this time 🙂
short radish
dont worry we'll be hit with another nerf bat later
because we're doing too much damage with bugged nimble flurry
they'll fix the buff and reduce its damage by 5% to compensate
swift tinsel
Yeah its arms warrior time
warm depot
its feral time
short radish
its feral time
why the fuck is snapshotting still a thing in this game
its <current year>
hybrid prism
Mark my words, the next tuning they do to sub is going to be like a 20% flat damage increase to deathstalker to “make it more competitive”. I’ll be so pumped lol
lilac stag
blizz really went out of their way to ignore sub this time 🙂
We’re not even close to bfa levels of ignored
tribal blade
We’re not even close to bfa levels of ignored
not yet 🙂
wispy bolt
im giving up on pushing rn at 3,149. Literally not worth it to inflict the pain of doing 15s as sub on myself
seems to be a damage wall for me where its just not enough to time these. im not good enough to crank higher
rocky ocean
Rerolling time
wispy bolt
i timed a 14 priory as assa (didnt time as sub) and i only ever did 1 key as it before. got a higher overall by 700k
warm depot
yeah ive done 14s as sub but it def feels way worse than sin
the ease of sin is the biggest factor for me
why do i gotta try like 3x as hard on sub to do the same or worse damage as sin lmao
pastel rampart
lilac stag
why do i gotta try like 3x as hard on sub to do the same or worse damage as sin ...
You don’t. Sub ain’t that difficult mate.
muted crescent
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
warm depot
You don’t. Sub ain’t that difficult mate.
nah its not that its hard its that i gotta play around my cds and shit when sin its just haha bleeds go brr
worn ivy
# Nimble Flurry bug
Its a bug that causes Nimble Flurry to hit less targets than...
Eta gg
New fav comp - feral / sub / ele / mw / war
rocky ocean
nah its not that its hard its that i gotta play around my cds and shit when sin ...
Assa in m+ is easy on surface. But when you try to optimize it has a lot going on. Try doing something like cynderbrew 15 and you will see yourself.
Oh yeah and on st you just
warm depot
yeah i get that theres optimizations its just way less effort and brainpower for damage
i wanna vibe when i do keys not be that one meme where the kid has his veins bursting through his forehead every key
vale pine
worn ivy
Quick question my sims tells me to go versa crit do i do that or just ignore and keep going versa / mastery for m+ ( tried both felt no diff)
fallow nimbus
Doesn't really matter, what's the sim saying about dps difference?
worn ivy
25-30k diff d/slice
fallow nimbus
Then go for it
worn ivy
But how accurate is d/slice for high level m+ 17 keys i dunno some
Pullls 1:30 min
fallow nimbus
But that's a bit high for just stats, you sure you didn't have wrong itemlvls somewhere?
alpine wraith
usually vers/mastery is better for m+
as more targets come in crit loses value a bit because you only really care about the FW
fallow nimbus
Vers/mastery are about equal for m+ with versa also being a little def stat and a little bit of crit isn't wrong
alpine wraith
and 30k dps is like 0.3%
or less
usually what you do is go full on vers mastery and get pacemaker
a kinda sinergistic thing
or use drink/mechano with full mastery
because circe goes hard with that
fallow nimbus
678 pacemaker is about +5% crit
worn ivy
Rn ive 5.021 crit - 20.17% / 18,615 versa 24% / 19,682 mastery - 89% / this is without any buffs
These are my unbuffed stats
74.760 agility
vale pine
Quick question my sims tells me to go versa crit do i do that or just ignore and...
a bit of crit is not bad
alpine wraith
i have 24k mastery 4k crit and 14k vers
worn ivy
right now fully balanced and im using versa flask mostly than ive like 28% versa
alpine wraith
stats dont matter that much
alpine wraith
having vers is also not that bad i guess in higher keys it does help etch the higher DR
worn ivy
yeye
alpine wraith
would not use vers flask tho it makes pot weaker
and i guess pot is quite important when you want it
short radish
tempered potion
alpine wraith
yes i use alchemical chaos
tempered pot givs all stats if you use that one
also man turbo s2 will be so funny
short radish
yeah you take the L then
worn ivy
Isnt it just better to go versa flask
short radish
theres a thing somewhere to custom sim it
worn ivy
But if with versa flask and alchemical chaos diff is too low i would still go versa flask
short radish
but just run 2 sims
one with alchie flaskj
and vers flask
and you can compare like that
cobalt vector
theres a thing somewhere to custom sim it
u can remove all but flasks cause otherwise it takes quite a while
grave shore
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
brave moth
!amps
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety damage amps that work on items:
- Find weakness (physical damage)
- Planned Execution
- Lingering Darkness (Deathstalker)
alpine wraith
ehehe
short radish
rocky ocean
they should just nerf nimble flurry so it's not a bug
worn ivy
I dont get suprise at this point
Every week waiting for sub buffs
Ending up getting useless patch updates
empty canyon
Love me some dooming
void ocean
Love me some dooming
we r past that point for a while now
hollow spear
I think we went through all phases of grief by now
haughty rose
buffing sub? why would they? we are not last in dps on mythic so no reason for them innit
severe prism
what are shadowed finishers mentioned in the buglist ? is that just the shadow damage part when pressing shadow blades ?
past marlin
what are shadowed finishers mentioned in the buglist ? is that just the shadow d...
not a mage talent so nevermind
raw wadi
buffing sub? why would they? we are not last in dps on mythic so no reason for t...
Remember the nerf two days until S2 patch... Even without sub would be dogshit
Guess they mixed up evoker with rogue
hazy breach
what are shadowed finishers mentioned in the buglist ? is that just the shadow d...
The talent named shadowed finisher
vale pine
buffing sub? why would they? we are not last in dps on mythic so no reason for t...
the one feral that got boosted lol
severe prism
The talent named shadowed finisher
Hmmm, i guess i cant read 
, thanks anyway and sorry for the dumb question then
lilac stag
the one feral that got boosted lol
The 13 sub rogues getting carried by their guild.
brittle plinth
How dare u sir
gritty knot
This flurry bug is funny
What bug? Did I miss smth?
vestal escarp
yes you missed 2 pins on here and outlaw
gritty knot
Ffs....hitting dead Targets. I cant anymore...
haughty mural
The 13 sub rogues getting carried by their guild.
Hey man that’s rude :/
vestal escarp
it's funny and in line with class fantasy wdym
haughty mural
(But prolly true)
haughty mural
Maybe my team is so shit I still carry them with my whack spec 
lilac stag
think of how much more you’d carry them as SV?
Me laughing with RL about rogues and the latest bug.
I love rogue.
haughty mural
Yea probably going in next season 
But I said that before
Raid is probably disbanding anyway in a week
tribal blade
watching my guild stagnate on bandit prog i'm so thankful we're extending too
haughty mural
The second raid in 2 seasons where I joined is probably disbanding
Maybe it’s me
lilac stag
I’m curious how long lockenstock will take. We actually did well on silken court
haughty mural
You are starting lockenstock today ?
ionic pendant
Hello, today I decided to look at the damage calculations of the ability, in particular the backstab, everywhere in calculations on the wowhead - the attack power characteristic appears, but why is it not shown in wow itself, and there is no formula for its calculation in the public sources, this seems strange to me
bleak wind
attack power is a remnant of the past, agility = attack power (not sure what the conversion rate is though). You can still see attack power mentioned in something like battle shout
tribal blade
the whetstones are another place i see the word attack power mentioned
other than that can't think of any else
north schooner
blood fury too
final holly
Imagine if battle shout buffed agi and str instead of ap, free dodge
tribal blade
i wish they would give sub more dodge like back in the day
vale pine
i agree, it would be nice if specs had more identity
final holly
Or make smokebomb work like dh darkness
lilac stag
You are starting lockenstock today ?
Tuesday
vale pine
no fall damage
tribal blade
i think that's the actual identity of sub right there to me
vale pine
and sprint on water
tribal blade
that kind of stuff
vale pine
pls
tribal blade
yeah
vale pine
also nice nimble flury bug
tribal blade
it really plays on the word "subtlety"
lilac stag
bring it back
Dude our tank was on his DK alt for a 10 and did the drop down in dark flame, right into the pack and went splat in under a second.
tribal blade
Dude our tank was on his DK alt for a 10 and did the drop down in dark flame, ri...
lol classic bdk
final holly
and sprint on water
Extend that to the speed boost from shroud and you're a 1 man floodgate skip machine
tribal blade
i think sub rogue should be very slippery
like trying to catch a fish with your bare hands
tribal blade
i love that pull, sin rogue goes crazy hard there
haughty mural
like trying to catch a fish with your bare hands
Try to catch sub on the dmg meter with your bare eyes and not a lens
tribal blade
Try to catch sub on the dmg meter with your bare eyes and not a lens
lol
lilac stag
details needs a new filter. always show subtlety rogue
vale pine
giving everyone water walking sounds like a cool idea
lilac stag
dk. Got it
also not that cool. 
Know what would be a cool sub feature?
Doing damage
tribal blade
nope sorry can't do that pal
haughty mural
You mean if you press sectech on first boss rookery it should actually connect ?
Nah
tribal blade
north schooner
the shadow clones are just afraid of heights
swift tinsel
immersion
warm depot
!bugs
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker
warm depot
i just was the de facto pyro cuck for rik
warm depot
delayed everything for them despairge
wild hornet
i just was the de facto pyro cuck for rik
I wasn't even a cuck
I just gave up dpsing the boss
I walked to proc cheat on pillars
warm depot
rip
i feel like that fight can be rng dependent for parsing? good pyrotechnics spawns and not getting owned by having to drain or pop amps is big
wild hornet
Idk there's been the once in a blue moon occasions I see myself on top 7
I'm always bottom on that boss on either spec
Im tweaking
wild hornet
i feel like that fight can be rng dependent for parsing? good pyrotechnics spawn...
Yeah there's some specs that don't care much if they're spread or not
And there's rogue
tepid trellis
time your dances to barrels
thats about all you can do
and pray for decent barrel spawns
wild hornet
I genuinely don't know what I'm doing wrong atp
This is like the 6th reclear
Every fight is good and then there's rik
warm depot
yeah i just hold dances for barrels
wild hornet
Yeah I do that aswell
I tried CDs at different starts, sdances on CD or barrel spawns
That boss is bullshit
lilac stag
I don't know what I'm doing wrong
rocky ocean
graceful crown
I don't know what I'm doing wrong
all the pulls i top we wipe, and the pulls i die like a moron and end up on the bottom of the dps are the kills on mythic, i feel your pain
kind of crazy how we went from good to subpar in a few weeks
void ocean
all the pulls i top we wipe, and the pulls i die like a moron and end up on the ...
ahaha my entire season is like this, since hc...
61 pulls on Rik, I died maybe twice all together, but the 2nd time was the kill 😄
lilac stag
kind of crazy how we went from good to subpar in a few weeks
Not really. Propped up by a S1 trinket. Multiple adjustments/nerfs. 📉
tulip wharf
!opener
serene notch
I really dislike that s1 trinket is still so good for us. I don’t do mythic raiding so I’ll prob keep it for the entire season.
lucid jackal
Have you tried heroic raiding?
serene notch
I thought only a mythic track cards beats it?
lucid jackal
In my exp the more gear u get the better hoc gets
I had normal hoc beat transmitter a few weeks ago
serene notch
Hmm I see, I mostly do keys this season. Not having to do Simon says seems appealing, the amt of time the transmitter spawns in bad or in unreachable places is aggravating.
vale pine
and pray for decent barrel spawns
isn't barrel always close to a player or pure random?
i swear it is related to player positions
tepid trellis
ive seen them spawn in bumbfuck nowhere
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals of during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
muted frigate
!up
wicked joltBOT
lilac stag
Hmm I see, I mostly do keys this season. Not having to do Simon says seems appea...
Just get the pvp badge and forget about it. Transmitter sims are pretty unrealistic. Every pickup is right at Sectech over the 5 minutes. gl with that.
or just play assa in keys
severe prism
I really dislike that s1 trinket is still so good for us. I don’t do mythic raid...
I'd 100% take a slightly less optimal trinket (like maybe nm HoC isn't simming as high as transmitter) to replace that fkin minigame trinket, if you fail/can't do the minigame you basically play with a no agi haste trinket ...
hollow snow
You basically play with no trinket at all
severe prism
or yeah even less optimal the pvp trinket, but at least i don't have to run around trying to find that damn ball in the pack of trash
hazy breach
You can also just buy a guaranteed hoc in 2 weeks when the new dinars come out
HC house of cards sims the same as transmitter, but no minigame
lilac stag
🙂 thx
Does the burst window change in aoe? i.e. Priory first pull
You add storm as your second builder to spread FW. That’s about it.
Cinderbrew is such a dungeon
vale pine
ive seen them spawn in bumbfuck nowhere
maybe i am wrong then
vale pine
fair ye
tulip wharf
You add storm as your second builder to spread FW. That’s about it.
Cinderbrew ...
Thank you! And during the “off burst” phase, would you swap backstab / evis for storm and black powder too?
silent ruin
The nimble bug is newly discovered bug or newly introduced one?
serene notch
maybe i am wrong then
That’s been my experience, extra lovely when it spawns on uneven ground and you cant stand on it cause it’s buried, or the ball that floats into walls etc.