It's nice that Evoker is both the top and bottom DPS
#subtlety
keen dome
fallen crescent
rl said roll over the trash and i got stunned 3 times
Lol
keen dome
rl said roll over the trash and i got stunned 3 times
I have buddies who will target me over anything else in that fight
it's fun
void ocean
im human, can remove one 😄
rocky ocean
buff symbols to give 9000 energy
void ocean
buff symbols to give 9000 energy
haha, that would be exactly a true blizz buff 😄
a.k.a superuseless 😄
void ocean
they could revert the last 2 nerfs and we'd still be at the bottom
what was 2nd to last nerf, i remember the 7% one before the season started
lethal gale
what was 2nd to last nerf, i remember the 7% one before the season started
I think it was some kinda tier set nerf don’t remember exactly
pulsar hemlock
un nerf the tier set as well
swift tinsel
they nerfed sectech by 5% and took tier stacks from 10 to 8 as the last nerf iirc
pulsar hemlock
Bring back the 6% per stack with 10stack cap we had on ptr
sly shore
who could've predicted that sub would fall off later in the patch after assa gets the buff 
haughty mural
End my misery
swift tinsel
idk if I ran any m+ on my rogue last week lol
haughty mural
Trying to gear up my ww and hunter on the side
crystal bone
haughty mural
Kek
swift tinsel
ran I think 2 keys total and that was on my spriest for shits
void ocean
i cant wait to have enough gear to play both specs
void ocean
well i already respeced
tho I respeced cause I forgot I have parse on Rik 1
and that I have to not die on the first reclear
swift tinsel
I'm probably unsubbing at the end of the month
void ocean
unsubing like switching to assa oor...
swift tinsel
certainly
crystal bone
i would too if i wasnt in a mythic guild
but i promised season 2 commitment
i am man of my word
short radish
who could've predicted that sub would fall off later in the patch after assa get...
are you saying that sub was looking really strong at the end of the previous tier/start of the new tier and blizzard overnerfed because of that?
damn how could this happen
again
for the 6th time
swift tinsel
we're progging a couple mythic bosses and the guild I'm in isn't the most mechanically aware
so I actively don't enjoy it
haughty mural
for the 6th time
swift tinsel
spent almost 2 hours wiping to cauldron bc people were still figuring out how to do bombs/lasers
haughty mural
I knew at some point during ptr
sly shore
are you saying that sub was looking really strong at the end of the previous tie...
Could easily predict sub was gonna be good early and terrible late
cycle repeats itself
and all is good in the world
haughty mural
„Oh no, here we Go again“
paper iron
Sub with Last tier trinket go pog
sly shore
ww in my guild killed mythic gallywix with transmitter
paper iron
Then everyone got New trink
sly shore
:D:D:D:D:D
short radish
Then everyone got New trink
man it would be crazy. ABSOLUTELY crazy if somehow next tier house of cards was used 5eva
surely this couldnt happen
again
haughty mural
Baseline increase going into the patch „omg sub op plx nerf“
paper iron
Sometving cool about wow now
Is that
So many classes have 90s cds
We re always gonna have à trinket for that
short radish
true
but now we're always going to have competition for that
and also people who are 2min specs want house of cards as well apparently
haughty mural
Till they forget to add agi on em
swift tinsel
or they forget to put a good one in the game and had to change HoC to 1.5min
swift tinsel
yep, we were either gonna go double passive or one of the shitter on-use damage trinkets
void ocean
couldnt they just create HoC2 with 2min cd and more mastery 😄
short radish
so we could have been down bad even mroe
short radish
and then maybe blizzard would have buffed us
swift tinsel
on-use that grants main stat
short radish
wait nvm we would have just used transmitter all tier
void ocean
like PVP
swift tinsel
yeah so we'd be stuck with champ track or myth transmitter still lol
void ocean
i wouldnt
haughty mural
swift tinsel
yeah hoc sims highest for me for ol
paper iron
Its absolutely not trash
swift tinsel
lol
void ocean
they r delusional, take em to the infirmary
paper iron
It s so much stats
haughty mural
Main gauche them
short radish
how the fuck does it sim so high
paper iron
short radish
oh no its gauching time
paper iron
90s CD main stat trinket
haughty mural
paper iron
That gives crazy amm of stats
paper iron
And since outlaw isnt 50% vers anymore because of haste tax
long wolf
is it normal for sub damage to be shit if route is not good for my cds (have to either hold it way too much or send it on half hp packs) on 12s /13s?
swift tinsel
yeah that's less than ideal
short radish
!design
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".
void ocean
im having troubles to imagine route being that shite
haughty mural
Next Tier the 1.5 min on use will give haste
swift tinsel
omg cant wait
haughty mural
swift tinsel
we're gonna get ww treatment rework and get giga haste scaling
haughty mural
I’d love it
swift tinsel
certain haste levels give additional sectech clones
void ocean
we turn into Naruto
haughty mural
Pog
swift tinsel
the ability to visibly benefit from bloodlust 
swift tinsel
lemme genjutsu my raid to not look at details numbers when I'm not on top
haughty mural
Or they will finally admit they are not gonna touch us till they’ll know what to do with this spec
Instead of further buffing BP
swift tinsel
they couldn't
sacred yarrow
also, we are already pain. by many reasons 
haughty mural
So I can rest in peace
north schooner
rework spec so that you are the shadow clone of another rogue
swift tinsel
although I think if they rework sub they'd also have to rework trickster (to a degree) which wouldn't be a bad thing
bc trickster shores up some of the current issues with sub
void ocean
i mean do we rly need serious rework
void ocean
just remove cdr and tune dmg and we fine
swift tinsel
but I think overall we're pretty solid gameplay-wise personally
leaden prairie
how the fuck does it sim so high
calm down
its litteraly the only trinket with an aoe scaling
since its stats
void ocean
add EoN as capstone instead of that god forsaken goremaws
leaden prairie
its not "good"
its just less bad than lpaying litteral st trinkets in aoe
feel me
alpine wraith
the ToP trink also works in aoe
leaden prairie
void ocean
scythe?
leaden prairie
miss me with "aoe" trinket htat scales negatively in aoe
cloud rover
I hate them
alpine wraith
it would do morbillion amounts of dmg
cloud rover
for not doing proper AOE trinekts
void ocean
void ocean
Give us boon
delete this
leaden prairie
that can use stats trinket
paper iron
Or
leaden prairie
then its an aoe triknt
paper iron
U Know what i would really like no cap
alpine wraith
yea burst spec with real cds
paper iron
Xymox cache
paper iron
It was cool to use and strong
cloud rover
void ocean
deathbringers will
paper iron
Remember the axe in gambit
cloud rover
Remember the axe in gambit
IT WAS SO FUN
alpine wraith
they dont want a glaives or blademaster's situation again
paper iron
Being your first dps source ?
haughty mural
Moonglaive Trinket
alpine wraith
cache was cute in comparison
or when nexus decided to just highroll
it was 30% of your dmg
now best you get is a wet fart
that is a bit more stinky up to 5 targets
paper iron
I rememebr in SOD the trinket that empowered your autos with frost dam that could crit for massive ammunt
alpine wraith
that was st too
keen marten
Give me Greiftorch
Grieforch resets were so good, no reason to be mad about your stupid guild mates dying
paper iron
From vault of wardens if i recall correctly
alpine wraith
faulty countermeasure
cloud rover
Grieforch resets were so good, no reason to be mad about your stupid guild mates...
Und also was an AOE trinket
swift tinsel
ah yeah didn't people farm the Wardens trinket pretty hard when it came around in timewalking mythic or whatever it was
cloud rover
Yes
leaden prairie
idk honestly i dont reallly get why only cd specs are allowed to have trinkets that scale with aoe
keen marten
if you triggered the secret tech
Wait what
keen marten
Aoe? Like the normal aoe splash or like a good aoe trinket?
paper iron
U Know as Much as me
leaden prairie
I mean
paper iron
There are no spot for non CD classes currently
leaden prairie
Ye sure
paper iron
And outlaw is the Last survivor
leaden prairie
Idk
cloud rover
Wait what
We discovered a bug, where when you as example grappled right before grieftorch usage, you would get more AOE hits
idk why
leaden prairie
I think dh doesn't use on use stats rn maybeb
swift tinsel
dh plays signet or hoc
leaden prairie
nvm
keen marten
Ay, didn't know that sadge
void ocean
what about puzzlebox
paper iron
It was with u tira we did the things right?
void ocean
was in 90 sec or 2min trink?
cloud rover
Yes
paper iron
Or was it with tiem
swift tinsel
algari puzzle box was 1.5 iirc
cloud rover
We did it Censi
tepid trellis
wasent puzzel 3?
haughty mural
3
paper iron
They deleted the trinket basically I remember
swift tinsel
bc it was big uhdk stonks
tranquil garden
there a bug list anywhere? need to know if that first boss of rookery is still F'd for us or something
swift tinsel
and gave them omega garg windows
inb4 we get DOS and IQD makes its return
arguably one of the most dungeons of all time
haughty mural
swift tinsel
someone in my guild said they wanted it and they got dogpiled on immediately lmao
honest brook
cant compet with unholy dmg in m+ any tips?
paper iron
Thing with does is that they gonna add true sight everhwvere
swift tinsel
cant compet with unholy dmg in m+ any tips?
no one can
haughty mural
Thing with does is that they gonna add true sight everhwvere
Pay disc priests to grip blood beast out if you are playing with one
swift tinsel
really love how truesight went from a few lieutenants to every fucking pack
paper iron
Probably hakar's
swift tinsel
The only DOS boss I don't mind is the one with the bomb pop-up
hakkar was aids
manastorms were double aids
swift tinsel
yeah
swift tinsel
there's a vid of one of my guildmates who mistook his shaman totem for a bomb and died
many luls were had at his expense lol
paper iron
Tank was dying on cds on birds also
Unless bdk 100% parry
Dos is like top. I liked it but it was too long imo
Could easily get rid of à boss
tepid trellis
DoS was fun for big overalls and nothing else
keen marten
The bird wing could have been deleted and it would be a good dungeon imo
paper iron
U wannz delete the aoe fun of the dungeon
paper iron
Hakkar it is
keen marten
Yes
paper iron
With his hexxers
keen marten
And the Beams
paper iron
This corridor in inspired needed shroud
sly shore
dos would've been a good dungeon without the LITERAL FUCKING MARATHON between bosses
keen marten
And this aswell
vestal escarp
Too long still
paper iron
Fr fr
swift tinsel
could add ports after killing boss to the stairs of that wing
keen marten
TP after boss to the next wing
swift tinsel
and save 20 mins
tepid trellis
now the real question is, do we join a new guild or do we quit and become full time lost ark gamer
keen marten
Full time lost ark sounds dangerous
swift tinsel
colour troubles?
paper iron
I was wondering stealthi
vestal escarp
What happened
paper iron
What are your plans now
haughty mural
Colour deadge?
swift tinsel
oh damn
tepid trellis
colour troubles?
vestal escarp
Bro racoon dropping gossip like nothing 
swift tinsel
dang, sorry to hear
haughty mural
tepid trellis
he had that locked and loaded ready to send
i actually did not
paper iron
Yea I understanf that fully
sly shore
💀
vestal escarp
Zac raids 5 days?
tepid trellis
then id just go top 15ish instead
swift tinsel
same, if I'm not getting paid that's a lot of time
tepid trellis
learn german and raid in NS
if they were international i wouldve insta app'd ngl
tepid trellis
Join project
swift tinsel
I'm leaning that way too
paper iron
And probably gotta have to switch guild for next tier if I keep going
I kinda
Cba
Too lazy
paper iron
I pay you the region transfer I u join This family guild called liquid
alpine wraith
oh i was there
paper iron
Just saying
tepid trellis
I pay you the region transfer I u join This family guild called liquid
if i got approached id prolly say yes
but that aint happening LOL
tepid trellis
yeah
alpine wraith
exile is a viber
alpine wraith
he is playing LE too now
paper iron
Dude s life is in prog
alpine wraith
gotta keep the grind
paper iron
But he s chilling i like him
swift tinsel
all while putting up with Cdew's tantrums
paper iron
Cdews
keen dome
That's a lot of raiding
alpine wraith
in spanish guilds it was also 6 days
i think only one or two remain tho
sloth did permanently die
swift tinsel
how many hours a day are you raiding for 6 days a week?
alpine wraith
idk what happened to it after the 4th disband or so
keen dome
If it works for you, it works. I'd hate that much unless it was very quick prog
alpine wraith
depends really
swift tinsel
that's wild
alpine wraith
most guilds raid 2 hours or so
or 3
but also data is super skewed
you have like 2 guilds with decent prog
then it jumps down
then it craters
like i know some people in the spanish myst that killed gally 4 days ago or so
livid girder
just quickly why do we pop backstab before every ST?
real panther
more spicy in the couscous, that's why
livid girder
translated to "there's a talent doing this and that, and that's why", understood
livid girder
alrighty, thanks 😄
mint swift
Curious depending on the mob count should we move flag foward in the opener
So if we had to rupture 8 mobs, it would be better to maybe strike, rup, storm, rup, storm, flag, Rup, storm, Rup then do the shadow dance stuff
So we deffo get the cold blood crit ST in the second shadow dancr
hazy breach
What, that has nothing to do with the cb
And you always get it inside shadow dance anyway
final holly
I was under the impression that if you've got CDs up and everything is grouped you're better off just sending rather than trying to get rupture on as much as possible first
alpine wraith
you send 1 or 2 at most yes
people in cds do a lot of dmg so if you delay more mobs may be dead before flag ends
smoky goblet
Multi-Rup is a sin thing, you want to Rup ~5 targets if they all live over 10, w/ bleed build you can rup more
Sub is 1-2 tar
hazy breach
Rupture does damage as sub too 
mint swift
What, that has nothing to do with the cb
Ah alright I always thought you’d CB the second dance
Is it moreso dependant on if you have max flag stacks
mint swift
Huh?
Ok I’m confused gonna need to re read the explanation gimme a sec
Fuck can’t read it properly on mobile sad
amber crow
if my next flag + sb is coming up and im holding on to symbols and sd so i can use 2 charges during the flag window, how long do i want to hold st if its up?
its this specific scenario that i struggle with the most
sly shore
as long as you have 2 charges of sod
and will fit 2 dances in flag
then you hold
you can do a sod + sectech 20s before cd's if you'll have 2x sod and 2x dance for flag
mint swift
Actually wowhead isn’t working rn for me
Why do you CB the ST in the second dance
sly shore
more damage
celest estuary
Got a question for you guys (keep in mind I got into wow 4 months ago, explain it to me like I am 5 years old). When there are adds to kill, do you guys stay on the boss and keep your streaks up and running or do you switch to the adds. I mean we are 20+ raiding so really, I feel bad loosing my streak sequence, but also feel bad not switching like everyone else.
hazy breach
No idea what you mean by streak, or why it would be lost swapping targets
wild hornet
Actually wowhead isn’t working rn for me
Why do you CB the ST in the second danc...
Flawless form stack
More boom
sly shore
answer is more damage no need to know why more damage really 
just know more dam more better
wild hornet
Got a question for you guys (keep in mind I got into wow 4 months ago, explain i...
Winning streak?
celest estuary
Basically everything you build up
hazy breach
Theres nothing
swift tinsel
you don't lose anything by switching
sly shore
there isn't anything like that
swift tinsel
outside of rupture/fw
celest estuary
Well that answers it thanks
swift tinsel
and that's just a debuff you add by striking
sly shore
or backstab from behind
wild hornet
This isn't outlaw (or assa?), you don't lose DPS for switching from your target with the damage amp ability
(flag)
mint swift
Flawless form stack
Ah ik
*kk
Also is it better to save vanish for surv rather than an offensive cd
hazy breach
Its better to use it than to not use it
hazy breach
But ye if you can avoid like a cast on last boss DFC darkness then sure
mint swift
Wait the circle around you?
alpine wraith
and other things too
mint swift
Ye
I’m guessing vanish can drop more things than FD? Or do they use the same
short radish
Also is it better to save vanish for surv rather than an offensive cd
Vanish the light elementals in priory
mint swift
Yeye, that’s one I know
short radish
Also vanishing root in flood gate
Tbh using it offensively is so whatever anyway
I only use it offensively in keys if I fuck up cdr and I need an extra 6 seconds
paper iron
Like in priory
U could keep vanish in case you re targetted by elems
Or in dfc if you have the big circle on ya
mint swift
Yea
Tbf feign is becoming one of my fav abilities
paper iron
These are kinda the only uses of def vanish
paper iron
Actually now u said it
This area
U can vanish after the first hit of the robot dude
mint swift
Fuck last section of ML
paper iron
And U wont be targetted again by the ability
paper iron
Works with meld also
mint swift
Fucking mages
paper iron
Huge value there
mint swift
Tbh I should just main mage so I never have to complain about anything
short radish
U can vanish after the first hit of the robot dude
What's this tech?
paper iron
U Know the robot dude
alpine wraith
it is legacy from his BfA spell
short radish
Tbh I should just main mage so I never have to complain about anything
The true big brain play
short radish
U Know the robot dude
Which dung?
paper iron
They do à pulse kinda ability
alpine wraith
it was a targeted channel
paper iron
Yea
ember steppe
Are the sim spreadsheets more accurate in terms of bis items than wowhead?
short radish
Are the sim spreadsheets more accurate in terms of bis items than wowhead?
Bis items are a meme
Except house of cards
paper iron
They cast à big boom pulse on everyone
paper iron
ywywywywywwywywywywywwywyw
i sometimes miss the 30% max hp shield on vanish
2 vanish charges
hexed bluff
Someone bring the servers back up
paper iron
vanish being offensive for dust / crackshot / MA is bad to me
short radish
Yup
mint swift
All 3 rogue specs playing around stealth windows
paper iron
i m a boomer saying that
but vanish should be an offensive ability only for assa
Crackshot is to my liking tho
unkempt basin
i sometimes miss the 30% max hp shield on vanish
I miss all the health regen that used to occur while stealthed
honest brook
guys i`m getting flamed in 14 workshop cuse of overall did 2.7 m in metter is it so bad as sub? checked some logs there were not huge tho
mint swift
guys i`m getting flamed in 14 workshop cuse of overall did 2.7 m in metter is it...
What did the ppl flaming you do damage wise
honest brook
What did the ppl flaming you do damage wise
" playing sub is troll" they said xd
honest brook
Jkjk tho just ignore em
he whispered me and pre ignored me , even key timed with 3 min left idk xd
honest brook
ret with 3.4m
mint swift
ret with 3.4m
Holy shit who could have seen that coming
honest brook
3.4 mil overal i mean
mint swift
Belf?
honest brook
4.5M in that key
damn
mint swift
I’d have to do a 14 myself and try to see how high I can go but it would be inaccurate as dif class
honest brook
i was assa player new to sub the only thing i moved to sub is fun to play and sin not for me
honest brook
I’d have to do a 14 myself and try to see how high I can go but it would be inac...
you playing ret?
sly shore
for example, I think this was a 12
honest brook
for example, I think this was a 12
its bleed build?
sly shore
ofc
solemn lance
Barackoshama is a great name
boreal umbra
do you always wanna finish with bp in a fight 7+ or for example in the first big pull in cinderbrew do you wanna use evis on prio target ?
lucid jackal
thats a value judgement that you have to make
mint swift
for example, I think this was a 12
Not flaming you
Because yknow your like one of the best rogues in the game
But I feel like super high damages like that are there cause you have shit teammates
lucid jackal
Well yes but sin still does more damage in keys
It does a lot of aoe damage
It just does shit ST
sly shore
If they did more damage
Id do more damage
Packs dying faster = more overall
Because they die at your peak and not your trough
Well more dps
Not more damage
vagrant quest
hey guys, I've been playing sub since mid S2 of DF, I've played sin in S1 TWW and got back to sub. I've big issues understanding what I do wrong in my rotation. I leave you my logs if someone can explain that would be great 🙂 https://fr.warcraftlogs.com/character/id/79351449?difficulty=5
lucid jackal
u are using a sod/shd macro which is bad
every dance first generator should be backstab not just in flag
A lot of these fights ur just doin nothin
you aren't using SOD on it's own
vagrant quest
I must use it outside of shadow dance?
mint swift
God it’s gonna feel weird getting into not always using tech in a dance
Or no rather
Using tech without a dance
void ocean
isnt "dry sec tech" rule a bit more relaxed than 30 sec from flag?
by dry i mean just sec tech and sod
mint swift
Tbh it’s prolly confusing for me as I’ve only tested it on dummies so far
void ocean
I feel like 20 sec is enough but I might be wrong
gritty knot
ret with 3.4m
Playing with a ret as sub was fked up last season already. Their insta burst just destroys low hp targets immediately and ur looking bad...especially in low keys
honest brook
Playing with a ret as sub was fked up last season already. Their insta burst jus...
another dps vas dev too
kind bluff
So I see everyone using seaforium now?
lucid jackal
isnt "dry sec tech" rule a bit more relaxed than 30 sec from flag?
Easier to just say stop at 30 because it leaves less room for fucking up and not having sod up for your cds
even if technically you can sod at 20 based on how your SOD stacks look
lucid jackal
So I see everyone using seaforium now?
more time passes, more opportunity to get it from vault
¯_(ツ)_/¯
void ocean
Easier to just say stop at 30 because it leaves less room for fucking up and not...
understandable, i was just pondering if im ever in situation that my dance is not up, sod and st are ready and flag is > 30 sec
lucid jackal
Like I said it depends on your sod stacks and if you fuck it up you have to wait for SOD to recharge before you start your cds again
kind bluff
more time passes, more opportunity to get it from vault
I meant that I didn't think we wanted seaforium. We wanted the hotline.
I passed on a myth seaforium lol
lucid jackal
its fine
2nd trinket can be whatever
They are all the same thing on aggrigate
Hotline better on short fights, eye is better on long, pacemaker is average across both
doesn't really matter much
hidden spade
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
void ocean
myth seaforium was my first myth item in 2nd week, never got anything good since then 😄
wide kernel
You have to do weird stuff with sub sometimes. I was in 3rd boss of ML on a 13 and I had some weird CD usage. I did flag with like 1 1/4 dance to push the timer. Boss had just enough hp to warrant big cd's and the pack after was fine with 1 small cd window.
lucid jackal
vale pine
any spec you play needs to learn how to adopt to boss timings
it isn't a exclusive concept
young mural
I tried assassination on sprocket
Feels awful
Sub's 1:30 CDs work much better for me
You throw your 2nd CD set before intermission and chill during intermission, its great
Compared to assassination where your deathmark comes back right as intermission starts
copper vapor
sup, dance macabre needs a reset every SD right ?
void ocean
sup, dance macabre needs a reset every SD right ?
Well, wouldnt call it a "need"
Nevertheless it happens
copper vapor
well, ive always only used shadowstrike when dance window, most of the time i think abt shuriken but never backstab
kinda couldn't fit it nicely in my bars, might've thought of a solution. Struggling to get my 14s finished, lacking dps. Not sure what else i could be improving
young mural
What do you mean danse macabre needs a reset? That doesnt make sense
It stacks while youre in shadow dance and drops when shadow dance ends
copper vapor
you need to stack macabre on every shadow dance
young mural
Thats all
young mural
young mural
Are you ok sky
copper vapor
SOD+Dance > backstab > Evicerate > ShadowStrike > ST
over
SOD+Dance > Evicerate > ShadowStrike > ST
Ive always done SOD + Dance when I had all my combo points up, never the other way around
copper vapor
Are you ok sky
im trying to figure out why tf i suck that much on the spec
when it looks so simple
young mural
You should only be casting eviscerate as your first finisher during dance if secret technique is on CD
copper vapor
really ?
young mural
And also if you have max combo points you always dance + symbols, throw a finisher and then you backstab or shuriken storm
Yhea, the cooldown reduction for secret technique is more important than stacking danse macabre like that
copper vapor
alright
is it better to slowly build up CP then dance/SoD or just throw them on cd if ST is up (outside of 30sec on major cds) ?
copper vapor
CDG?
void ocean
coup
swift tinsel
except for first dance of flag window
void ocean
yea
swift tinsel
you always sectech first there
young mural
Yhea also coup de grace has higher priority than a regular sec tech
So you dont waste 2 unseen blade stacks like luvchild said
copper vapor
yea so if CDG up cast it asap in dance window
void ocean
YOWO
young mural
I guess
young mural
yea so if CDG up cast it asap in dance window
Yhea sky
copper vapor
alright, sometimes did the other way around, thought it didn't really matter
void ocean
yea so if CDG up cast it asap in dance window
also keep an eye if u have 3 stacks, sneaky bastard procs after the first backstab/ss
void ocean
happened too often my fingers just go for st right away
swift tinsel
dance+symbols -> bs
swift tinsel
^
copper vapor
painfully build CP into SOD+SD > (CDG > Backstab if CDG up) > builder > ST is bad then
mhhh
hazy breach
Sounds like youre overthinking
young mural
What
hazy breach
Idk what you mean by painful
young mural
If youre at 0 CP just shadow dance and youll get full combo points with premed
copper vapor
by Ive got no cooldown up and im struggling for energy so its gonna take years to build up to 6CP
hazy breach
So what
copper vapor
painful CP build up is alright
^
young mural
Yhea
Thats how the spec works
If you have no CDs you do 1 backstab every 10 seconds and take an hour to build combo points
Its normal
void ocean
Realistically u will never fire SD with a lot of cps
void ocean
You could yes
copper vapor
doing SD or SoD first doesn't matter at all does it
swift tinsel
it happens fairly often
young mural
Nope
young mural
doing SD or SoD first doesn't matter at all does it
Doesnt matter
copper vapor
alright
swift tinsel
outside of flag 2nd dance
bc then you dance right after your first and send sod to supercharge 2nd sectech
copper vapor
Do you guys bother with vanish that much? I mostly use it as a "oh fuck button i need CPs for rupture"
swift tinsel
its useful for things
void ocean
But assuming u spend cps for cdr and fire sd as soon as its there u can maybe fire sd after 1-2 globals
swift tinsel
defensively or skipping certain mechs
young mural
I dont even press it offensively anymore
young mural
defensively or skipping certain mechs
Yhea thats what I do
Btw i miss shadowdust shit was DANK
copper vapor
Mhhhh
void ocean
Btw i miss shadowdust shit was DANK
Delete this
jaunty umbra
mods get this guy
alpine wraith
shadowdust was cool
amber crow
this was in a rookery 4, 633 ilvl, 1.77m overall. anything strange about this damage breakdown i can improve on?
2 set
chrome palm
this was in a rookery 4, 633 ilvl, 1.77m overall. anything strange about this da...
At 7+ targets: cast shuriken storm once as your second builder in dance, and also use black powder instead of eviscerate, except for when coup de gras is active
amber crow
at 6 or less its backstab shadowstrike and at 7+ its backstab shuriken storm?
chrome palm
Yeah
amber crow
or i guess it can be shadowstrike instead of backstab if im not pressing a third builder in dance
distant bison
super low keys i think u should send cold blood tech first go. u should onlly save cold blood for second tech on boss fights. packs die too fast u ll lose dps if u save cold blood for second tech
amber crow
how much of a dps gain is using it on second?
chrome palm
At 7+ targets, backstab in dance is not important. Just make sure you don’t cast shuriken as your first builder
I mean you probably wanna keep holding it for the 2nd sec tech so you don’t develop a bad habit
distant bison
big u ll have all flag stacks and flawless form
amber crow
then ill take it out of the sectech macro and press it manually
distant bison
yeah ure not supposedd to macro blood tech
chrome palm
You can keep your macro, just have a separate non macrod sec tech as well
amber crow
outside of cds i press it on a random sectech? or just save it for the next flag
distant bison
when u get 4 set u ll also have to send 1 evis with dance only without symbols so u wont llose ur set bonus then symbols into evis and tech
if u dont have first ddance buff actually
chrome palm
Generally, don’t use cold blood except for the second secret technique
distant bison
i sometimes vanish during the pack and it bugs out my first dance. even though im in combat i eventually get the first dance bonus
distant bison
change that shit lol
amber crow
on paper it seems so bad though? when in a dungeon are you gonna be out of combat for 6 seconds
paper iron
lot of them
and u can still vanish out of a pack at the end to start rolling the buff earlier
chrome palm
If it happens only a few times it’s still a big gain
paper iron
paper iron
yea sometimes u can vanish mid boss fight and get tfd for fun
for reasons only god knows
amber crow
ill give it a shot
chrome palm
for reasons only god knows
A blessing from on high
distant bison
before u start lookinng for dgs press symbols 3 times
u ll start every dg with 6 empowered buff
paper iron
reset to 2
distant bison
it doesnt go away
paper iron
so no reason to stack them to the moon
distant bison
no it doesnnt for me
paper iron
uh
distant bison
i always start with 6
paper iron
@hazy breach supercharger doesnt reset to 2 anymore? 
patent lichen
distant bison
i use weak auras to see supercharge bonuses it ddoesnnt reset to 2 for me
can u see it on logs?
amber crow
both of you are right ish? when you put the key in it doesnt reset the supercharge
however when the timer hits 1 it resets to 2
i just tested this
paper iron
some of them but not all
always been the case
like if you re full cp, you lose them all at timer 2 also
same with arcane charge iirc
amber crow
nice and inconsistent
but i guess it still stands that i press symbols at least once before i start a key to start with 2 stacks
paper iron
yea
if u really wanna be a gigachad
press sectech and sod before a key
so you start with 2 supercarger and 2 disorienting strike
and if you re even more chad, you make sure to reach 2 ub stacks before pressing flag first pull
amber crow
im gonna need portable training dummies
paper iron
as a rogue it s often very usefull yea
DF had 2 or 3 of them
love event got one, mop one, and blablabla
hazy breach
i use weak auras to see supercharge bonuses it ddoesnnt reset to 2 for me
Unless its been changed it should reset to 2 whenever the wall goes down at the start of a key
Maybe they messed something up with the recent "you cant use stuff prepull" changes
amber crow
is disorienting strikes a buff without timer? i cant seem to find it on my buff bar
amber crow
so i should be able to press sectech at any point before a dungeon and get 2 stacks of flawless form on first pull?
hazy breach
Yes
Again, unless its been fixed recently
Ive mostly been playing assa in keys for a while now
amber crow
those prepull changes have been mostly reverted today
ive never really been able to enjoy assa or outlaw
for some reason sub is the only rogue spec that speaks to me
paper iron
yea they reverted it
but frostfire empower
but it s blizzard
we know that by doing nothing they added 27 new bugs, 26 on outlaw only
young mural
Maybe they messed something up with the recent "you cant use stuff prepull" chan...
do you know if those changes made it so you cant pre pot before dungeon?
tempered potion
molten citrus
do you know if those changes made it so you cant pre pot before dungeon?
It was only raid bosses
molten citrus
so no more super charger prepull
3 messages above your message
They reverted all of the prepull changes
Supercharger was never effected in the first place though
young mural
my sims are BEGGING for a bit of crit
i refuse to wear crit gear
get fucked raidbots
gritty knot
"We know the issue and it happens rarely but if it's happened to u we can't help u" Classic Blizz hahaha
void ocean
U tell em
young mural
you gotta be fucking with me
vale pine
lol
young mural
this has to be some sort of joke for real
whatt the fuck did they do to my subby roggueyy
vale pine
nothing, they just buffed everyone else
and statistics did initially not show all fights
vale pine
i mean its good
good enough at least
and thats apperently blizz desired place for the spec
balance wise
young mural
feels like they're just begging for a reroll at this point
just screaming "go play assassination"
swift tinsel
or WW
young mural
i need the thug shake trinket kinda urgently
vale pine
i mean that was the idea balance tuning wise
else they would have buffed sub and sin
and it kind of makes sense
assassiantion is the easy to play spec
subtlety is punishing in part due to decisions made by the design team which where not needed
having your performance more dependent on player skill is just not a very appealing idea
if you want to get a broughter audience to play a spec/class
young mural
subtlety is punishing in part due to decisions made by the design team which whe...
big true, sub is one of the most punishing specs i've played
or at least thats how it feels
if you fuck up your burst sequence its 1min 30sec of crying
vale pine
it does not explain why it still needs to be tuned low even with good play
but thats a entire can of worms i don't want to open
overall the output is good enough for all content types, and we have the "burst" / "90 sec cooldowns" niche
young mural
if you want to get a broughter audience to play a spec/class
why does every spec need to appeal to "bad" players though, thats what I dont get. People wont even switch over from BM hunter and ret paladin so why does it even matter
vale pine
you need to ask the balance and design team
i have no idea how they balance but i can with confidence say its not objective
all i care about is having reasons to play subtlety and being competitive so people can play it if they want
open vortex
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
young mural
i have no idea how they balance but i can with confidence say its not objective
for sure, i'd be pretty happy if they balanced it based on numbers and concrete stuff
lucid jackal
Well when sin was buffed, it was weak enough to justify the buff
But between prog becoming farm for many guilds, the niche that sub filled stopped being relevant
Where sin is better at parsing on these fights
young mural
i dont get why sub is such a great prog spec
could you make that clearer for me?
everyone says that but i dont get why sin wouldnt be great also for example
lucid jackal
well because intitially sin was undertuned
Secondarily, sub "Solved problems" with its ability to move symbols casts down the line to help with things like, adds on OAB, that sin can't really do
Or blow up the first bomb set on OAB
or move cooldowns for adds on stix, if you were even in on that boss
young mural
ah sure
thats a very valid point
i did poopoo overall damage on rik but also exploded barrels for them, thats a good characteristic for prog i guess
lucid jackal
so when that damage check stops mattering because everybody just does more damage week over week, sub "killing bombs/adds" on oab stops being relevant, and because damage is higher and higher, it can't even excel in that strength because other specs will blow them up and cannablize the damage
Well the good characteristic was also that it was the highest tuned rogue spec, at the time of early prog as well
young mural
yhea true
lucid jackal
If sin was tuned as it was post buff, these features wouldnt matter as much
But being tuned high, and also having shiftable cooldowns was helpful
Even if wcl doesn't exactly show this
young mural
outlaw isnt viable for prog so it left us with sub only
lucid jackal
Well outlaw is viable for prog it's just people are scared of the spec
And just don't play it
vale pine
well because intitially sin was undertuned
with undertuned you mean statistically equal to sub
young mural
i dont know about that, dont you need high uptime with outlaw?
vale pine
just saying
lucid jackal
It was worse than sub
lucid jackal
i dont know about that, dont you need high uptime with outlaw?
Every single spec in the entire game can easily get 99% uptime on every fight
Which is more than enough
young mural
Every single spec in the entire game can easily get 99% uptime on every fight
bruh i cannot for sure
but good players might be able to
vale pine
the reality is, we had this discussion initially
and your point was very clearly that sub will remain the best spec on all fights (except probably mugzee)
which i think you just agreed to not being true
lucid jackal
I was wrong sure
I've also said multiple times sin didn't need to get a buff at all
vale pine
as it stands my prediction ended up very true
lucid jackal
Sub was still the better prog spec
young mural
idk i love nimble flurry but i think it actually broke sub's massive single target damage appeal. thats just how i personally feel when comparing TWW's sub to DF's sub
might be a schizo take but its my take
lucid jackal
Okay but what about season 1 where the best ST spec was sub?
lucid jackal
until sin got overbuffed again 
vale pine
i think you contradict yourself to say sin was undertuned
young mural
i think you cln
well said fuu's cat
vale pine
and then say "sin did not need a buff"
if it did not need a buff
how was it undertuned
lucid jackal
because WCL doesn't tell you why a spec is good
Sin was a good spec because mugzee existed as a fight
Even if broadly speaking, was undertuned
vale pine
so sub was undertuned too
can apply the same argument
just because you could blow up adds on certain fights, it did appear stronger than it actually was
lucid jackal
ive also said multiple times that sub should have gotten buffed in last weeks patch
acoustic lodge
I've said it once.. i'll say it again. Fuu and forever guy should be devs
wispy bolt
Blizzard pays like ass. No wonder they don’t get the best talent
young mural
I've said it once.. i'll say it again. Fuu and forever guy should be devs
yhea it would actually make rogue a good class
acoustic lodge
My dudes would 100% change goremaws bite
vale pine
i wonder what guy would change to make outlaw more appealing
shy ermine
You shouldn’t want both of them for devs, they’ve never agreed on anything 😂
shy ermine
I can’t believe we haven’t seen sub buffs
First thing I’d do is remove the positional requirement on backstab for find weakness
vale pine
Blizzard pays like ass. No wonder they don’t get the best talent
i mentioned it earlier, i do think tuning is done in a very subjective/biased way.
It is easy to complain if you are tuned poorly, but in the end it does not matter.
Nobody will change their approach to tuning ^^
shy ermine
This tier has properly showcased how antiquated that mechanic is
acoustic lodge
On the real though. I can only imagine what life is like for the rogue dev.
sand monolith
Did they lower the cooldown on SBs from 1.5m to 1.2 min or am I trippin?
lucid jackal
But I mean yeah idk, tuning is random
Last tier basically all of farm sub was the best spec
It plays identical to right now
Idt it's some grant conspriacy about "Sub is hard to play and the devs want the easy spec to always be the best"
acoustic lodge
Last raid, did seem better tuned dfor sub
vale pine
lets validate this
shy ermine
Assa was great on farm too
vale pine
"last tier sub was the better farm spec"
means you would see a high amount of sub players in mythic
lucid jackal
Nope thats not what that would mean at all
vale pine
as most aim to play whats best
lucid jackal
I dont care about whats the most popular
BM is more popular than MM even when MM is 10x stronger than BM
acoustic lodge
Mythic is a very small pop though, Fuu
lucid jackal
Only thing I care about is actual strength
vale pine
but if you look at parses
acoustic lodge
Tbh id play BM over all hunter specs. I can literally click one button over and over. Top meters
vale pine
you have multiple times the amount of parses on sin compared to sub or outlaw
in fact you have as many outlaw players in the pool as subtlety
lucid jackal
Why would I care about popularity rather than power
When talking about "what spec is best"
Is BM hunter the best hunter spec rn?
vale pine
i think it is for mythic raiding
because it is such a small sample size
and optimization is such a big topic for the majority
vale pine
think thats a unfair comparison
acoustic lodge
I think to mythic raid you would def look at top parses
even though, there's probably a ton of private logs
lucid jackal
Why dodge the question?
acoustic lodge
BM 100%
lucid jackal
What hunter spec is better, MM or BM
vale pine
because mm is probably better
lucid jackal
There is 1 "mechanic bitch" fight, and its OAB
vale pine
and you just want to make the point of people still playing BM
lucid jackal
No other fight is hunter doing shit
The point I'm making is that sub being unpopular doesn't have anything to do with its power
acoustic lodge
I agree with Forever
vale pine
rogue spec popularity has a lot to do with power
acoustic lodge
Strictly, for sub
vale pine
rogue was always the class where people did switch between specs depending on what was best
its just assasisnation was soo long the dominant spec
that there is a bias towards it
in design, attention and tuning
lucid jackal
If your argument is always going to be "well sub isn't popular therefore its bad" then theres no sense discussing this further
If you progged at all last tier, sub was the best spec for every fight, except ovinax
acoustic lodge
I do believe sin is more popular because it's much easier to play compared to sub. Even though, I don't think sub is hard at all. It just requires mor reading and proper understanding of the dmg sequence.
lucid jackal
and for farm, sub was still the better spec for the last 2 fights, which are the only actual hard fights 10 weeks into farm that u can actually wipe to
Sub still dealt with platform 1, sin couldn't
lucid jackal
The majority of players play fucking BM hunter
acoustic lodge
or ret pally
lucid jackal
I don't give a fuck what spec joey peanut picks
alpine wraith
the thing is prog for you might not be prog for almost anyone
less than 0,1% people care that sub is good week 1 and 2
lucid jackal
I'm not talking about week 1 and 2
alpine wraith
if it will be mid to not that good week 4+
lucid jackal
Sub solved problems on queen
Sin didn't
Solving problems is how you prog fights
Not "what spec does more on the WCL page"
I cannot believe I have to say this to people who have played this game for over 10 years
acoustic lodge
What truly matters the most.. What's important during prog or what's best when you're just parsing
alpine wraith
i mean solving problems is how you get benched but at least 1 rogue is good now at least
lucid jackal
?