it all depends if you get a proc or not
#subtlety
short radish
round abyss
i feel silly, this ENTIRE time, i thougth shadowstrike REPLACED backstab in stealth
short radish
because you get
1 from pull
2 from the strikes after sectech
short radish
i feel silly, this ENTIRE time, i thougth shadowstrike REPLACED backstab in stea...
this is also why it's good to have strike and bs on separate binds
for when this shenigan happens
round abyss
i have both bound to F
wispy bolt
because you get
1 from pull
2 from the strikes after sectech
in m+ this doesnt always work ig
short radish
yeah
honestly whether its coup or whether its evis
doesnt really change anything drastically
blah blah cdr or something
round abyss
i may not be smart enough for this lmao
short radish
but you can always fit 2 sectechs in flag/blades burst
short radish
i may not be smart enough for this lmao
you can do it mate
dont worry sub is a very rewarding spec
where you do good damage
once you figure it out
(no one tell him)
short radish
rogue is the least played class in the game and sub is probably the least played spec of rogue
competing with outlaw i guess
both of which get forgotten by by blizzard
round abyss
thank you for talking this through, i've read countless guides, including the wowhead one.. they're all well written, i just wanst understanding some fundamentals that i now feel much better with
short radish
we compete for bottom of the meters
but sub is rewarding in the fact that
if you press your buttons right
you do notice you do damage
short radish
thank you for talking this through, i've read countless guides, including the wo...
no wokkas
round abyss
hell, i am messing things up and still get a dopamine high when i open 😛
short radish
it's not super intuitive at first glance
yep when you do everything perfectly
and you get that massive juiced sectech + coldblood
and just see your 5mill burst jump to 6mill
really gets the dopamine flowing
round abyss
do we ever hit like warriors and do 17m? 🙂
lucid jackal
competing with outlaw i guess
Right now it's sub it was outlaw last tier
And before buffs, it was sin
short radish
really? i thought that even when sin is bad
it's always most played rogue spec
just because of its simplicity
rapid oasis
wasn't sin good because of execute on some fights anyway given how this tier's bosses were designed?
lucid jackal
Sin was bad, it got a buff it didn't need, and then mugzee as a fight was a huge bottleneck
Where even pre buff it was the best spec by far
Plus a lot of the niche that sub filled, doesn't need to be filled on farm
lucid jackal
Being the highest on demand burst damage spec in the game is a good niche
lucid jackal
In lust maybe
short radish
true
lucid jackal
But oab bomb set isn't in lust
rapid oasis
speaking of haste, i know it's the least desired stat but do we get anything from haste?
lucid jackal
But yeah subs power is less relevant on farm because a lot of the difficult checks it solved for don't exist anymore
Ik sub is weak rn but it still fills a niche
Just it's undertuned and it's farm for a lot of ppl now
rapid oasis
i mean isn't sub more fun to play even on farm though?
lucid jackal
Yeah
short radish
sub is just more fun to play in general
earnest crane
the only good thing about sub at the moment is the speed ur charecter move so fast 😄
earnest crane
u doing shadowland dmg outside shadowdance 😄
short radish
so for trickster, why are we taking impruves Suriken storm talent?
if you press storm once
it's better
because in dance you have so much eneryg anyway
you only take it on a pure single target fight
lucid jackal
so for trickster, why are we taking impruves Suriken storm talent?
Sf is a low impact talent, and on 3 targets outside of dance you press storm
round abyss
storm instead of bs?
round abyss
and we only blackpowder when 7+?
rapid oasis
do you always push bs in dance?
earnest crane
do you always push bs in dance?
BS in dance ? as i know we only bs in dance for a stack
lucid jackal
Your first generator in dance yes
rapid oasis
let me rephrase that question, i forgot it becomes ss in dance. when if ever do we press storm in dance?
short radish
on 7 targets after you press symbols
lucid jackal
let me rephrase that question, i forgot it becomes ss in dance. when if ever do ...
It doesn't become backstab in dance
That's not how dance works
round abyss
you guys are the best, tysm for tonight - i am going to practice a bit, so enjoy your evening all
rapid oasis
It doesn't become backstab in dance
bs becomes ss in dance doesn't it?
short radish
no wokkas, gl with it
lucid jackal
bs becomes ss in dance doesn't it?
nope
short radish
remember you can always run a simc quicksim
look at the rotation there
and do that against a target dummy
rapid oasis
right, i guess you can technically bs in SD too but I thought we don't BS in dance for danse macabre stacks anymore?
rapid oasis
somehow backstab in dance has returned
so we BS as the first builder in dance and then go back to spamming ss for builder?
short radish
no i enjoy being annoyingly vague
basically if your backstab isn't going to apply FW
and you dont have FW up on the boss
you want to SS
otherwise you lose out on a ton of damage
also at 7+ targets it's net neutral or something
short radish
basically if your backstab isn't going to apply FW
because ss applys FW no matter what your position is, but backstab requires being behind boss
rapid oasis
it also requires for it to be a crit too, no?
rapid oasis
ok, so if no Find Weakness, use SS to apply it, and then you BS in dance for the DM stack?
short radish
i think you only want to do bs on first global
or first generator
if you dont do it first generator it's kinda not worth
rapid oasis
i see. how much of a damage loss is it if I don't bother with BS? lol
short radish
it's also something like 0.6% difference
im pretty sure
yeah
dont bother
just press shadow strike
rapid oasis
yea, that's kind of an annoying amount
short radish
big enough to want to do it
rapid oasis
exactly
short radish
not big enough for it to acutally matter
but thats like saying "sockets dont matter"
🙃
rapid oasis
actually i see you guys spam the dractyrkek a lot, why is it so popular here
short radish
it's a funny emote
round abyss
FW -- will show as a debuff on the boss, right? my Weak Aura wont pick that up?
short radish
FW -- will show as a debuff on the boss, right? my Weak Aura wont pick that up?
yes
i dont think many weak auras track it
because we've never needed to track it
short radish
if youre building muscle memory
may as well do it now
like i said earlier, you gotta get used to breaking muscle memory as sub
our opener and min/max stuff changes from patch to patch
round abyss
well its gonna happen, i've changed my buttons around slightly, lol.
rapid oasis
i like the dance/bs macro that was floating around somewwhere
austere elm
you can also just macro dance+backstab
short radish
for instance, we used to macro flag and blades together
or at least it wasn't a huge deficit to macro them
round abyss
is it now?
rapid oasis
all this work to be the worst spec kreygasm
short radish
yes
short radish
all this work to be the worst spec kreygasm
hey we can beat ret paladins
nvm
just checked wclogs
we cant
austere elm
im using this
#showtooltip Shadow Dance
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Backstab
/castsequence reset=5 Symbols of Death,null
/cqs
pretty neat imo
rapid oasis
yea cast sequencing has caused me more trouble than it's worth
though i havent bothered on the rogue yet
austere elm
heh? its just for the symbols would never fat fingered/spamed on top of each other and wasted
short radish
just as long as you have a separate bind for naked dance
short radish
heh? its just for the symbols would never fat fingered/spamed on top of each oth...
sorry, wasn't supposed to be making fun of you
rapid oasis
also, is there any issue with having symbols and dance bound if I also have separate buttons bound for each of those abilities?
short radish
just reminded me of this video that we found a month ago
where it was like 30 abilities in one macro
austere elm
sorry, wasn't supposed to be making fun of you
yes
that was in wod
sub opener
with lego trinket
round abyss
fazed isnt find weakness, right?
short radish
fazed isnt find weakness, right?
no
also it's good if you read the hero talents a bit
to understand how fazed interacts with sub
rapid oasis
reading in 2025?
short radish
short radish
every time i see a cast sequence macro
i just hear the voices in my head now
im acutally traumatised
rustic geyser
I legit shared the boomy one with one of my guildies
we need to raid with them
could still do the first 3 for the logs
rapid oasis
but in all seriousness don't Cast sequence macros break frequently?
rustic geyser
y'know
rustic geyser
cast sequences have a place... but it's more in terms of like preventing you from mashing a button if you're a spammer
rapid oasis
like whenever you desync for whatever reason it stops working and then you're just fucked for whatever you had bound to them
I tried getting one to work with mage's whatever rewind time ability thing is
and it never seemed to properly work
rustic geyser
I wouldn't actually rely on a cast sequence to cast multiple things for you that are on gcd
short radish
!sod
wicked joltBOT
Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs
rustic geyser
yeah like that
short radish
thats the only cast sequence macro you should use
rapid oasis
so that prevents me from mashing more than one symbols of death?
rustic geyser
a castsequence that prevents you overmashing a button that LETS you
that's good
rapid oasis
hmm
short radish
so that prevents me from mashing more than one symbols of death?
yes, use that one
rapid oasis
i need to add it now
short radish
one macro a day to improve your gameplay~
rustic geyser
it's actually borderline offensive that symbols will let you do that lol
rapid oasis
but we're playing rogue
rustic geyser
shiv too, if you'r eplaying sin etc
austere elm
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/uMFfq1fUuk0
looks like its working for him? whats the flame for?
rustic geyser
one macro a day to improve your gameplay~
🎶 from the screen to the keys we play one macro a day to improve your gameplay 🎵
fingers dancing on the keys so fast
austere elm
but in all seriousness don't Cast sequence macros break frequently?
it works perfectly for me, not that long one. but what i did paste before
short radish
looks like its working for him? whats the flame for?
if you look at the macro
you will slowly break down into insanity
seeing how wrong it is
austere elm
**__Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges:__**```
#showtooltip Symbo...
i incorporated this one, into my dance/backstab
austere elm
you will slowly break down into insanity
ohh i didnt bother with that 😄
rapid oasis
don't you want to symbol before the backstab technically?
short radish
ohh i didnt bother with that 😄
too bad you started defending him
now youre on the hook
austere elm
i didnt defended him, i just cba 😛
rustic geyser
current sub tends to shy away from macroing dance/symbols together at all as there is a lot of times you use them separate regardless
short radish
but yeah the macro is all sorts of wack
rustic geyser
but assuming you ALSO have them separate, there's much worse you could do
short radish
it does damage
rapid oasis
yea, but id prefer to have one button bound together and 2 more separate buttons for each of those abilities
rapid oasis
it's ok, it's not like sec tech is a lot of our damage anyway
austere elm
but assuming you ALSO have them separate, there's much worse you could do
i have them seperate. and i rarely see them using seperate, maybe the last charge
just never overcap symbols and always use with dance
short radish
WAIT
HE DOESNT EVEN PRESS FLAG AND SBLADE
IT GETS WORSE
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
rustic geyser
mate
austere elm
he still does bigdmgur
rustic geyser
you can't make your macros that long
short radish
get me out
rapid oasis
it's ok, didn't you see him peak at 5mil dps on 7 targets?
rustic geyser
it's big burst
austere elm
oh its 7?
rustic geyser
it says so in the title
rapid oasis
sorry, it's 5 targets
austere elm
it says so in the title
ye
rustic geyser
i have them seperate. and i rarely see them using seperate, maybe the last charg...
yeh, this can work
I think you'll find some in the discord will shush you at the slightest mention of something that isn't PERFECT gameplay that they of course ALL do
but realistically if someone really wanted to critique if it's currently IMPACTING you we'd need to view logs
generally the idea of avoiding binding certain things together is to avoid creating a bad HABIT more than "it's directly worse"
muscle memory, especially in a spec like sub can have a lot to answer for
short radish
yeh, this can work
I think you'll find some in the discord will shush you at the...
HEKILI IS BAD DONT USE IT
rustic geyser
just ask fimb when we had to start stacking danse macabre again
short radish
rustic geyser
that was the worst rewiring of muscle memory ever for me, and I can't fucking explain why
short radish
rogues having the best tc's is both a blessing and a curse
blessing because we can min max damage
curse because every patch/2nd week they find some new krangled 0.5% dps gain
that involves breaking muscle memory
except assi for some reason
they found a build that makes life easier
which feels illegal
rustic geyser
then armin rocks along like
"so if I have 2-3 PS procs left but less than 30 energy, am 10-14 seconds away from my next adrenaline rush and no current HO, it's ACKCHUALLAY a .003% dps increase to use shiv instead of sinister strike every approx 55-59 rotations"
rustic geyser
legal statement: this is not an actual quote
austere elm
ill keep that in mind
rustic geyser
rogues having the best tc's is both a blessing and a curse
I still feel like our class currently has a lot of complication purely for the sake of having complication
not that I WANT a 2 button unh spec, but like the mechanic having direct feedback would be nice, even if just for when I have to explain it to someone who has never played rogue
austere elm
its okay, big brain spec/class. if you dont liike play ret or boomie 😛
rustic geyser
shadowdust was complex
but like explaining it was chill "I press button, other buttons come back fast"
maybe I just need a good macro...
"one macro a day to explain your gameplay"
/s I need a 24 second opener so that I can prep a symbols, this has multiple impacts....
@short radish lol
lucid jackal
young mural
tyvm forever dude
wow never knew there was so much interesting information there
btw twitter recommended your rogue memes for me today guy
im going deep into rogue territory
worn ivy
Subtlety buffs today 🙏🫡
short radish
short radish
just pray to the right god
alpine wraith
now we know if we dont get buffs it was because lashga didnt sacrifice enough goats
tribal blade
we're 100% getting sub buffs
keen dome
agreed
100%
It's going to be the reverse zul situation
the patch'll go live and they'll go "oh yeah we forgot anyway Sub is now buffed"
keen dome
i hope Outlaw gets buffs too.
mint swift
I mean
Does sub need buffs atm?
It seems p good from what i've seen
not lacking behind
true pulsar
If blizzard has shown anything with the tuning this expansion they will give an aura buff to sin and leave the other specs alone
mint swift
If blizzard has shown anything with the tuning this expansion they will give an ...
Waiter waiter buff envenom again please
true pulsar
Does sub need buffs atm?
Sub has been underperforming in raid recently which is what they base most of the tuning off of
mint swift
Ah fair took a look and i see what you mean
Potentially yea
Well everyone please do not wish for sub buffs
PLEASE specify Non-deathstalker sub buffs
keen dome
Sub was strong initially due to the aura buffs, but they did that to compensate for nerfing tier / some abilities.
And we've just not kept up with other classes
It's.. not as bad as S1. It's fine? We're fine in most typical content. But Sub does fall off in keys and stuff. It's not the worst positon sub has been in and i believe they're still REALLY good for prog.
but. buff sub
lament brook
So in 7+ target aoe do we not still want to weave in shadowstrike/Backstabs to proc UB? If you only shuriken storm then you just sit on tons of unseen blade stacks esp after Sec Tech and you never get to your coup
mint swift
Implying blizzard will make anything other than assa the best rogue spec like that have been doing for a bit know
proven plover
So in 7+ target aoe do we not still want to weave in shadowstrike/Backstabs to p...
I do it one to proc ub especially if youve Got coup up
lament brook
well after you sec tech you get 2 free resets of UB
keen dome
I like the design approach that all 3 specs should do something specific very well. Assa being very good AoE is cool. I agree with Stealthi's thoughts that Sub should drop AoE and just be pure ST burst blasts.
lament brook
so I'd think youd want to consume those asap as long as find weakness is up from shuriken storm I dont see why nto just backstab in that case
or shadowstrike whatever
might as well consume it when you know you have UB stacks
proven plover
More cps from storm leads to more Finishers more cdr more dmg
proven plover
During blades you should be in dance therefore ssing anyway
lament brook
the guide doesnt say to SS in dance other than for dance macabre stacks at 7+ targets
thats why I was confused
I figure shadowstrike should be prio over shuriken storm regardless of target count if you have a UB proc available
lament brook
aaah okay I misinterpreted the infographic
proven plover
Sry for low effort screenshot xd
lament brook
got it backwards
okay so we only storm in dance once for find weakness spread/dance macabre stacks
that makes more sense
proven plover
1/2 finality Sims higher than rotten if youre still playing it
tribal blade
1/2 finality Sims higher than rotten if youre still playing it
rotten is better all round use
tribal blade
true in raid doesn't really mattter
for M+ you def want rotten though
@vale pine how many buffs does sub need till we can do stuff like this
short radish
<@194804407706189824> how many buffs does sub need till we can do stuff like thi...
rookery?
tribal blade
i'm the only person on my push team who hasn't class swapped haha
leaden prairie
Like top or workshop
tribal blade
Like top or workshop
true i've been meaning to run sub in those to test it out again
leaden prairie
Even rookery idk kinda a wash honestly
tribal blade
sin does crazy aoe in rookery
leaden prairie
Like last boss sub is kinda goated on rook
leaden prairie
Ye but it's not a bad sub dungeon and then you have last boss
tribal blade
every time i've run rookery i'm topping every trash pack as sin
and then bosses feel like horse doo doo
leaden prairie
Will agree tho that you probably not doing assa overall tho in AOE dungeons
tribal blade
i had the discussion with my tank about pulling trash into bosses wherever possible haha
when i'm playing sin
leaden prairie
Ye
tribal blade
the difference is nuts for sin
tribal blade
my guildie just swapped back to enhance from disc
leaden prairie
Nice
proven plover
for M+ you def want rotten though
why
tribal blade
why
guaranteed spreading FW in aoe
it's big
for big BP dam
but i haven't run keys with finality at all this season so i don't have concrete proof
short radish
yeah but my feelcraft says otherwise
depends how much aoe the dungeon has though
because your aoe FW uptime is also only important if youre acutally pressing BP right
so ToP maybe finality is better?
proven plover
ic
short radish
but then cinderbrew you 100% take rotten
kind bluff
Yea sub needs some work. I just got a 99 while being 1 mil dps behind a monk.
wild hornet
Monks are just busted
kind bluff
And it was trill so I don't feel as bad. But still.
cloud rover
<@194804407706189824> how many buffs does sub need till we can do stuff like thi...
You would need more DMG outside of CDs
Like in Burst i would argue sub is better than sin
alpine wraith
the thing is our burst is not omegatrucker
like if you burst like uhdk for 30m+
then it would be fine to do 500k dps after
even on st if we burst for 10m+ it would be fine to be noodle after
but we just do some dmg but not quite enough
tulip gorge
well at some point it will be sub's turn for a buff
it's sad how it fell off
but this always happens when your spec starts strong in a patch
you get nerfed, other classes get buffed and you just get outclassed
alpine wraith
it was never high tbh just propped by past glory from s1
cloud rover
Problem also is maybe, that su doesnt lose much ST for M+ spec
cloud rover
ye
leaden prairie
Even outlaw loses like
15% st
Probably more idk
Ok maybe less
It's 3 talent with one being almost 10%
plush roost
And with how long some m+ bosses are, is tfd even a dps loss?
tribal blade
like if you burst like uhdk for 30m+
this is honestly what sub should be doing
with the downtime
maybe not quite udk numbers because that's just nutty, but close
mint swift
What about the second dance
fringe palm
What sub should be doing is having enough cdr to dance and symbols with every sectec and still play CDs
pastel rampart
trueeee
tribal blade
i vote just remove cdr from dance
leaden prairie
Ye honestly
tribal blade
being on the hamster wheel of uptime to farm back dance is annoying
tribal blade
it makes sense on outlaw yeah
leaden prairie
It's kinda whatever annoyance
tribal blade
i think sectec cdr is ok
mint swift
Just amke it so dance and symbols are combined
Shurely nobody is gonna say taht it's a bad change
leaden prairie
you play better as outlaw=get more casts
Ye
fringe palm
I don't like the cdr part, but if you remove it you might aswell remove dance or symbols since it's just a macro then anyway
leaden prairie
It already kinda is tho isn't it
tribal blade
nah you still couldn't macro dance and symbols together
leaden prairie
I need to think
I don't think I sent a natty sod on Gally
I sent one maybe
Did I
mint swift
Just make it so sub does -100 damage outside of dance then hits like a nuke in dance
fringe palm
I did for sure in prog
fringe palm
Same
tribal blade
it would go a long way to simplify the spec a bit
fringe palm
Blades is a good button though, I like pressing it
tribal blade
baking blades into dance would require them to overhaul a good chunk of sub, but i agree it's a very cool idea
it would make dance a big dopamine button again
like it was originally
i'd like to see the spec go back to dance being the core thing sub revolves around
keen dome
Blades is a good button though, I like pressing it
I don't disagree, but! What if Blades became Flag? Delete flag, rename it to Shadow blades. It's now on us and just a ramping mastery buff
leaden prairie
But then you don't have big burst
You guys been asking for big burst since forever
fringe palm
But then it's flag and not blades xd, why bother renaming it
tribal blade
i think big burst seems like a double edged sword with blizz
where they're too afraid to let us burst big
leaden prairie
well its farily big rn tbf
tribal blade
any time our burst starts getting to impressive levels it gets squashed
leaden prairie
and its mostly concentrated in one gcd which is cool
tribal blade
yeah it is pretty big
fringe palm
It is, but there's classes that do the same and still have consistent damage
tribal blade
but issue is it doesn't balance out with the downtime
keen dome
Also bake CB into SecTec
tribal blade
It is, but there's classes that do the same and still have consistent damage
yeah this pretty much
leaden prairie
It is, but there's classes that do the same and still have consistent damage
ok but thats just shit tuning
keen dome
This comes from my dislike of CB as a button and from no logical viewpoint
fringe palm
Shit tuning will always be here for us 
I know it's not a popular opinion but sepulchr sub was a fun iteration that matches current class design
Add blades beeing a useful Button
keen dome
I wish I'd gotten to try that version of Sub
vale pine
2nd raid of SL was all 3 specs very close in output
leaden prairie
still waiting for an outlaw tier 
tribal blade
what was sepulch
vale pine
this tier is probably a outlaw tier
leaden prairie
for prog i mean fuu
keen dome
👀
leaden prairie
i played a grand total of 0 bosses as outlaw
tribal blade
if we had that tier set with current sub, sub would be omega busted
keen dome
Can't they bake that into the set
leaden prairie
idk waht outlaw tier means to you
Also this is probably one of the worse outlaw tier in the longest time
fringe palm
for prog i mean fuu
The only way that ever happens is a rework or outlaw beeing completely broken
leaden prairie
Killing spree is troll in any progress content rn
leaden prairie
The only way that ever happens is a rework or outlaw beeing completely broken
Meh
Completely broken
But then it's not played
So it's not broken maybe
I don't really get this argument
It's like for outlaw there is a tiping point, where before it's useless and above it's mega broken
fringe palm
I'm not saying it's op rn. But why would you ever prog as outlaw if it's not far better than assa and even sub
leaden prairie
I don't really get it
leaden prairie
I'm not saying it's op rn. But why would you ever prog as outlaw if it's not far...
Ye and why wouldn't it be far better for a tier
We never had that
Nerf sub and sin enough easy
fringe palm
But that's what I'm saying 
true pulsar
I personally don't think outlaw needs a rework other than killing spree, but it doesn't have a very good damage profile for raid so it would have to do a lot of damage
leaden prairie
Eh idk
true pulsar
But outlaw is fun to play if you give it a chance
leaden prairie
But also I don't think you need a rework to give outlaw a niche
For example
Just make precise cut kind of baseline (just higher gate)
Buff it a bit
And we are back to being the cleave spec
There is that at least
fringe palm
Yeah but splatter exists
leaden prairie
Cause rn you wouldn't even play outlaw on cleave bosses you know
Ok but pc can be insane
What spatter gonna do
i cleave at 100% + on 2 target rn
with m+ build
its just unfortunate that you need to lose like 10% st so its not a raid thing
fringe palm
It can be, but like I said if it's close to the other specs you won't see outlaw. Kurog would be a niche that can work if you mean that
leaden prairie
ye kinda
shy ermine
I know it's not a popular opinion but sepulchr sub was a fun iteration that matc...
People hated that iteration because dance uptime was too high, I loved it personally
leaden prairie
It can be, but like I said if it's close to the other specs you won't see outlaw...
because since sub adn sin got spatter even on kurog type of bosses you wouldnt play oultaw
whihc pc can kinda fix imo so
plush roost
They should give bte 2 charges and keep crackshot in so if you miss a crackshot during your window you aren't crying in the club as hard
And make ks work like blade dance on dh
fringe palm
Cook up some skill, because it sounds like a skill issue ngl
plush roost
Hehe
leaden prairie
and we have ryukage cooking up things in outalw channel perma
so thats saying something
fringe palm
Zac I've heard of a more useless thing this week
plush roost
Im a big fan of overcooking to a burnt crisp
fringe palm
Outlaw on prog
leaden prairie
ye
I mean you know what
Look
You say that but
Objectively
If ks wasn't a thing rn
Outlaw would be the prog spec on gally
true pulsar
I feel like >90% of the outlaw hot takes i hear sound like the person hasn't played outlaw in like 3 patches
short radish
I feel like >90% of the outlaw hot takes i hear sound like the person hasn't pla...
bro half the outlaw players havent played the outlaw in 3 expansions
true pulsar
Well KS is shit
fringe palm
What makes outlaw better?
leaden prairie
its more st more cleave
100% uptime boss
The only issue on this boss is you have to play like a psychopath with killing spree
Which I'm doing on farm rn and it's fine cause it's farm
But on god you have an outlaw doing what I'm doing rn on prog
Better bench this mf
steady timber
Don't give my officers ideas...
leaden prairie
100% uptime boss
Similarly you don't need much for outlaw to be better on sprocket
It's just not really tuned good on st rn
fringe palm
100% uptime wasn't a thing on prog. But sure if you had good enough gear for outlaw to be better than the other specs it's good on gally
fringe palm
How good it outlaw on the shield?
leaden prairie
its not
which like would be an issue but the shield is litteraly at the start of the fight so its relatively fine
and the dps chcek wasnt that hard to meet once people got their mark
My issue this tier is also simply that outlaw isn't even ahead on patchwerk right
If it was
Do you really need outlaw to be mega broken
I think Gally would be an outlaw boss if it wasn't for.ks rn, but if we also were ahead on patchwerk it would definitely be better no questions asked, and I don't think that makes outlaw particularly op lol
leaden prairie
wouldnt need to with a sub rogue
tribal blade
maybe
shit sub's cds probably line up perfectly on this boss
at this level
they break the 1st shield in 1 min
vestal escarp
I watched a rookery 16 where they broke the shield every 90s
wild hornet
I think Gally would be an outlaw boss if it wasn't for.ks rn, but if we also wer...
I was really thinking whether I should die every 2nd pull
I mean prog with outlaw tt
Or just whine about CDs on sub
leaden prairie
ye i wouldnt prog with outlaw unless you are a one trick
tribal blade
I watched a rookery 16 where they broke the shield every 90s
also shield breaks would happen slower with sub
leaden prairie
Well I wouldn't prog as outlaw at all I think killing spree is troll on prog
leaden prairie
Or just whine about CDs on sub
Nothing to whine about tho
Send on cd
No gap between them
Infinite damage
Easy
wild hornet
Well I wouldn't prog as outlaw at all I think killing spree is troll on prog
Well I started being more mindful
After getting beamed by dino 3 times
leaden prairie
Doesn't matter
wild hornet
leaden prairie
Unless you are a well trained individual
And even then
It's imo troll
Too dangerous
wild hornet
Tru, fatebound still exists
leaden prairie
I take a lot of damage I'm not supposed to be taking during my reclearsnnow
wild hornet
I either hold it till it's more safe or I burn immunities for it
leaden prairie
Ye I use cloak for 2 ks in the fight
leaden prairie
Did it get nerfed
It didn't get buffed
And it was already bad
Basically anytime there is adds close to boss
You lose like 30% st
While also being way behind in AOE
And trickster does same st
So
wild hornet
Fair
I mean my other option is sending one or two dispatches before ks
So I don't wipe myself
tribal blade
whoever thought tying ks to trickster deserves a gold medal
actually whoever designed DS deserves a gold medal
actually the entire rogue hero trees deserve gold medals
leaden prairie
I mean my other option is sending one or two dispatches before ks
ye but then you do that all the time and you start losing infinite damage
tribal blade
sitting on 2 finishers worth of ks cdr sounds like a lot
leaden prairie
I did almost 500k more DPS than the other 3 guys that did Gally as outlaw on my rekill, while not progging as outlaw
And I think
The biggest thing
Is I'm sending ks like a psychopath
I would never play like that on prog tho
It's just troll imo
tribal blade
i watched wox die on the 1st boss of floodgate as outlaw
tribal blade
i think he got hit by the add circles
leaden prairie
Ye
You do sometimes
Well there is a reason I refuse to remove cheat death
Even tho it's so trash
And elus is op
I just can't
Ks is too hard
tribal blade
that's so crazy you need to run cheat just because of ks
leaden prairie
And I still die from time to time
leaden prairie
that's so crazy you need to run cheat just because of ks
You can also not and play like a mega pussy
But then you do 0 damage so
tribal blade
hahaaa
rocky ocean
subtlety buffs
leaden prairie
ye in your dreasm bozo
rocky ocean
😦
fringe palm
Assa and outlaw look fine overall there won't be any changes
fringe palm
They don't balance m+ except for outliers if that
tribal blade
jinx
leaden prairie
Idk
fringe palm
Rogue clearly not popular enough or enough attention for changes
leaden prairie
Terrible man
tribal blade
sin at least you can keep up
leaden prairie
I still can't believe outlaw is allowed to be doing tank damage on every first pull
tribal blade
but we have no utility
fringe palm
As sin you top every weekly atleast
tribal blade
i'm only 3300 atm
leaden prairie
i mean at least sin can "top" even high keys
tribal blade
because i'm running with a team so i'm not pushing as hard as i used to
but i'm doing as much overall as 3400 players
fringe palm
Is 3400 good rn?
tribal blade
yeah it's title
sly shore
I am 2900
tribal blade
every key i do with people who
leaden prairie
No one pugs higher
sly shore
tribal blade
are 3400 i'm keeping up with udks
leaden prairie
But you can do 16s with handicapped players cause of resilient now
I like resilient tho
wild hornet
i hear 11s are the worst key range to do atm
Why?
fringe palm
I didn't play keys at the start and cba sitting in tool for 30min to play a +12 where I gap the other dps by 2m season is over for me I fear
wild hornet
Is it cause it's not a 10 but not a 12 yet
tribal blade
Why?
because most people just want to do 10s for weekly
all the good players who want to push are doing 12s or higher
fringe palm
12/13 is elo hell
tribal blade
11s legit nobody is doing
no additonal rewards at 11
the only people who are trying to do 11s are not good enough to do 12s
so that's their push key range
so you can imagine
keen dome
I'm 2625 and too scared to do 12's. I'm that good
tribal blade
how bad they are
keen dome
I've done a singular 11 and I was tricked into it
I only noticed it was an 11 half-way through
tribal blade
12s are pretty chill 😉
sly shore
The thing about doing that key level
keen dome
A buddy just tried to get me to do some I think and I decided to do lunch instead
sly shore
10-11 is crest difference for weekly right
but 12 doesn't have the affix and isn't hard
removing that affix is such stupid qol
keen dome
but 12 doesn't have the affix and isn't hard
Yeah it does sound pretty chill
sly shore
I like the bonus they give
tribal blade
but then you gain the death affix
sly shore
deaths never been a problem
keen dome
My biggest fear is just being bad at damage and letting people down so I get very anxious
sly shore
in the 12's I have done
tribal blade
yeah in 12s it's not an issue
sly shore
just don't die 4head
keen dome
that's asking a lot
leaden prairie
idk
i think you shouldnt be able to time keys with 15 deahts
so its not that bad
in df we had seasons like that
tribal blade
i see that argument
yeah you could time BRH with like 20-25 deaths
i remember that
fringe palm
Seasons where dps decides if you time are good, season where getting oneshot or not decides are bad
leaden prairie
I only remember SL being like that
sly shore
leaden prairie
Like keys being more DPS oriented
Than one shots
Wonder how that will change now without Aug
I wish they would remove tyrannical health affix also
Too long bosses
We got used to them now but
tribal blade
this season isn't really that 1 shotty
leaden prairie
this season isn't really that 1 shotty
Ye haven't noticed that much damage like these
tribal blade
definitely has some 1 shot kind of stuff, but it's not too crazy
leaden prairie
But it's always about high keys so
keen dome
I think they should get rid of the death affix but I also think Zac has a point too
tribal blade
i think the 2nd boss in dfc is the place i see the most 1 shots
leaden prairie
I think they should get rid of the death affix but I also think Zac has a point ...
I mean maybe it should just be ramping
Right
keen dome
Yeah
leaden prairie
Idk
tribal blade
tried a 16 DFC today and the ele sham died like 3 times on the boss to the 1 shot
keen dome
The affix is visible is the issue so people perceive it and then apply more irritation to mistakes
leaden prairie
First few doesn't count much and then it's like
tribal blade
just feint 4head
leaden prairie
10 MIN PER DEATH GET OWNED
tribal blade
yeah but now the shield goes on 3 people as intended
before it was maybe 1 person
so it's still way harder than before
BUT the ele popped lust on 2nd boss haha
and then the MW in the group lost his shit
because we wouldn't have lust on 3rd boss
"MW sucks at healing next boss, we're screwed without lust"
and he was right, we all died
short radish
yes
brave moth
👍
vestal escarp
also shield breaks would happen slower with sub
sorry it was with a sub rog
bro basically got to flag every shield perfectly
tribal blade
bro basically got to flag every shield perfectly
niiiice
i think you unironically hold dps to make flag fall into every burn no matter what
vestal escarp
ofc
livid girder
as a complete sub rogue newbie, is there any WA to keep track of mobs in the pack we're currently fighting? Always played a healer, so I never really cared about the amount and from time to time I'm having difficulties saying if it's 6 mobs or 8 😄
leaden prairie
!wa
wicked joltBOT
livid girder
many thanks
tribal blade
hello! not too bad
my guild is doing bandit prog and i'm doing a lot of damage on it as sub so that's cool
and been doing keys as sin where i'm also doing a lot of dam
dam all round
keen dome
my guild is doing bandit prog and i'm doing a lot of damage on it as sub so that...
fuck yeah
tribal blade
feels like we're hitting the part of the fight where i start to drop off though
mint swift
Fair fair
We did cauldron after like 30 pulls
People kept standing in shit
And I only wiped once due to fucking up toys so hey
29/30 successful toy pulls sounds peak
Also got a like, 96
I tried sub and brain melted but I think it’s just a ton of word soup
I understand I think but it just feels like a very silly and needless amount of buttons
tribal blade
from lack of dance charges
mint swift
Like personally I think SoD and SD should just be mixed into one
Or CB and ST
Ik these are noob suggestions but still
tribal blade
it's a common thought
mint swift
Yea
short radish
Like personally I think SoD and SD should just be mixed into one
Or CB and ST
Ik...
sod + dance should be merged into one
sectech should only be available during dance
mint swift
Isn’t Sb and flag one too
tribal blade
you'll definitely be feeling it if you're playing bm
short radish
life would be so much easier
mint swift
you'll definitely be feeling it if you're playing bm
Meh not really
Even when I wasn’t playing BM it still felt like
A lot was kinda just
Eh
tribal blade
the spec needs a lot of work
whether blizz decides to do anything about it is the real question
plush roost
my guild is doing bandit prog and i'm doing a lot of damage on it as sub so that...
I think lowkey that people should just play sin on that fight unless u lack 1:30 specs
mint swift
Also I’d give outlaw a spin but the other 2 rogues we have play oitlaw
mint swift
Play sub then
void ocean
Also I’d give outlaw a spin but the other 2 rogues we have play oitlaw
u have 3 rogues????
tribal blade
Which makes me a bit sad
i think i'm just sticking with sub tbh
tribal blade
but possibly i could go sin honestly
mint swift
BM
tribal blade
because a bunch of people on my raid team are starting to do weird stuff to do more add damage
plush roost
Play sub then
Im the only rogue and execute dps was more relevant so to assa i went. Gonna see what feels better on gally wednesdya
tribal blade
which is causing them to do no boss dam
mint swift
https://tenor.com/view/homelander-disgust-gif-14056253443273255719
You say that
plush roost
which is causing them to do no boss dam
Them 3mil dps burn phases are no joke on sin thats for sure
mint swift
But who else is gonna do:
junk bombs
Gally bombs
OaB coins
Vexie bikes
Cauldron toys
Ok I don’t solo bukes
But I do quite a few of them
plush roost
But who else is gonna do:
junk bombs
Gally bombs
OaB coins
Vexie bikes
Cauldron ...
Dedicated coin thrower on oab
Bm life
keen dome
I had a single druid do 7 biks in my MVexie pug this week. Absolute heroes who just do mechanics for the better of the group
the unsung raid heroes
mint swift
Dedicated coin thrower on oab
It’s fun
tribal blade
this was boss damage across all wipes on our last raid night
mint swift
You can pass off having a damage buff the entire fight as helping w mechqnics
tribal blade
not sure if i'm supposed to be way higher than some of these specs
but then again i'm not dying on the fight haha
keen dome
You can pass off having a damage buff the entire fight as helping w mechqnics
that's why my Vexie parses are so bad. I'm having to raid lead via text the whole time!
mint swift
Are the Spriests literally giving each other head mid fight or something
void ocean
this was boss damage across all wipes on our last raid night
how long is this into the fight
mint swift
that's why my Vexie parses are so bad. I'm having to raid lead via text the whol...
Again you should join us for a run dood!!!!
tribal blade
i think half our raid team is dying left and right on most pulls
mint swift
Wed we are doing 1st then 7th, 8th
mint swift
i think half our raid team is dying left and right on most pulls
Our RL had a huge headache on cauldron lol
void ocean
oh nvm im blind
tribal blade
how long is this into the fight
this waas 37 wipes
plush roost
this was boss damage across all wipes on our last raid night
Show premium currency bombs now hehe
keen dome
Again you should join us for a run dood!!!!
I'll think about it! I'm doing my weekly heroic pug wed morning and then taking a break from pug leading for a bit
tribal blade
Show premium currency bombs now hehe
OK those are the adds they are hard nuking now lol
void ocean
i had awesome hc pugs last week on my dk, killed Gally in 4 pulls, Mug in 8
mint swift
Could you guys imagine if they never nerfed sprocket or stix
tribal blade
omfg why are there so many add names on this fight tf
plush roost
I think with 6% sprocket and stix are probably killed by a bunch of people now
tribal blade
is it premium dynamite booty?
tribal blade
mint swift
omfg why are there so many add names on this fight tf
What fight is this?
tribal blade
our dev went for an aoe build over st just for that
tribal blade
What fight is this?
bandit
tribal blade
yeah
plush roost
Nobody should be touching those
leaden prairie
but he's doing much lower boss dam
Boss damage doesn't matter on oab tbf
Even on prog we were stopping DPS
tribal blade
to be completely fair now that they're getting blown up we're seeing more of the fight instead of wiping on that add set
plush roost
It does if everyone is sub 2m ngl
leaden prairie
Like you only wipe if you fail reel assistants or the bombs
leaden prairie
Yev
plush roost
Just wait till mugzee
tribal blade
haha i'm playing sin on mugzee
mint swift
Why?
plush roost
Sometimes earlier
tribal blade
yeah i heard people hard stop
plush roost
For oab you want to position the pylons correctly
And if u phase early
He slams them in the center of the room
So you're in fire tornado hell
mint swift
Yeye
mint swift
Also char I stg I’ve seen you with all 3 colours
plush roost
our tanks are miserable
Yeah bdk must be miserable
We had vdh
So he just leap leap vr to his bait spot
Every time
tribal blade
yeah we have bdk and prot pal
i think it's something to do with the boss only moving when he's not casting
or something
plush roost
Yeah he stops during the big hit
tribal blade
that's the one yeah
plush roost
But idk as long as you get boss to first kill add during big hit
It doesn't matter too much moving around
mint swift
Tbh idk if we will get to one armed on mythic this tier but it sounds kinda unfun
tribal blade
so far i haven't had too many issues, the only real issue are the goddamn flame tornados
that are hidden under the boss
plush roost
Tbh idk if we will get to one armed on mythic this tier but it sounds kinda unfu...
Later into tier it will be fine because people will likely skip coin -bomb set, and maybe even fire-bomb set and phase earlier
Rn its at a weird spot where you can skip one bomb set with good dps
mint swift
Ah fair
I remember that was a thing with sprocket that made it hell right
Because you did a phase that a week or so later
People would skip
In rfw I mean
tribal blade
last phase yeah
now by the time you get to the last phase you only really need to do 1 bomb set
mint swift
Ah ok
tribal blade
but it'll kill anyone who's not topped
mint swift
That was prolly pre nerf it was like that then
tribal blade
and multiple ball hits will kill everyone
i hate those things because they kind of have a bigger hit box than they look
the visual clarity on locken is not good
most specifically the void beams
those edges aren't defined enough
tribal blade
there's a really bad overlap with void beams and magnet that's dragging everyone sideways
mint swift
Like the frontal/reverse frontal in top
tribal blade
and the beam ticks for some crazy amount per 0.5 seconds
most visuals this tier are a lot better
most edges are well defined
mint swift
Yea 100%
tribal blade
biggest issues i have are locken void beams and stix trash piles
stix's trash piles are SO HARD to see
oh how could i forget bandit flame tornados
those things blend into the floor
mint swift
Still not as bad as half the shit on n’zoth
tribal blade
at least they finally decided to do something about undefined edges in wow
keen dome
Yeah
real panther
OH YES PLEASE BLIZZARD! LETS GO EVEN LOWER I DOUBLE DARE YOU....
tepid trellis
I shall relay that to my contacts Aug needs a buff