based
#subtlety
lilac stag
Only if the adds aren’t getting wiped
gritty knot
bleak night
Only if the adds aren’t getting wiped
3 reclears in and i still have to swap to sub otherwise barrels dont die
every week i play sin for one more wipe before swapping
lilac stag
Tell your devoker to do better
bleak night
the worst part is we have 2
lilac stag
hahah our pres swapped this week and she destroyed them
paper iron
the real french channel
lilac stag
Our one stayed flame and was near useless
Hilariously enough, me being assa with cds coming up in execute saved a wipe
graceful rock
My details window is only 1 bar tall and I have always show my self checked
Raid frames off
Just me
In my little world
stable badge
new to sub anyone got a Rotation guide? or a good way to learn it
hybrid prism
I got a myth trashmaster in my vault so I got an addon that prompts me to change my title back to the actual title I want to use. HATE that I am going to be having to do that all season. From what I read you can't trade it in like you used to be able to...
twilit phoenix
new to sub anyone got a Rotation guide? or a good way to learn it
The wowhead guide is really good
twilit phoenix
new to sub anyone got a Rotation guide? or a good way to learn it
General overview here
jaunty heath
A friend told me that slice and dice on sub rogue gets applied via another ability, I check forums and such and can't find much does anyone else know? Or is it the case I need to reapply it every 30 secs or so? I'm level 29 so learning still haha.
tepid trellis
jaunty heath
Legend I will give it a read now tyvm!
jaunty heath
Stay strong bro
I'm actually having a blast on it tbh, I've played things like BM Hunter and Ret Pal prior but it's so boring I fall asleep haha. I'm doing the outland levelling closing in on 30, the only issue I've had is energy regen being super SLOW, but that solves itself when you're max level with all the talents unlocked etc... or so I've been told.
twilit phoenix
I'm actually having a blast on it tbh, I've played things like BM Hunter and Ret...
jaunty heath
Most fun I've personally had in WOW in ages, Like I want to put the time into my spec, learn what I'm doing wrong and improve as opposed to pressing 2/3 buttons because OHH SHINY.
jaunty heath
high flint
is near 100% mastery a good thing on subtlety? LOL
high flint
makes sense
short radish
but yes near 100% mastery is normal for sub
sub just really likes mastery and vers
haste is useless
and crit is nice but also a bit whatever
final holly
My guild mates didn't believe me when I was trying to explain how bad haste was. Had to end up showing a sim where a 658 verse master ring was still 0.5% more DPS than a 678 haste mastery ring
jaunty heath
but yes near 100% mastery is normal for sub
I'm getting mistweaver vibes when you say that haha, the amount of mastery I got was mad what does the stat % look like?
short radish
My guild mates didn't believe me when I was trying to explain how bad haste was....
im pretty sure skyfury is more beneficial to sub than lust
short radish
I'm getting mistweaver vibes when you say that haha, the amount of mastery I got...
semi related as well but i do like how much sub stacks vers
we basically run around with flat 25% DR
for free
it's a byproduct of haste being shit
final holly
I cry every time I get PI because the main PI target died or something
short radish
but having all that DR feels good.jpg
final holly
Not just DR but huge health potions
Along with that one talent that increases health pot healing
jaunty heath
we basically run around with flat 25% DR
Now this I LIKE, if you hadn't sold me before you do now xD. My favorite thing about rogue is having 2/3 enemies and using my stuns/blind on them to control and then pick them off one by one then if something needs to die NOW, pop cds go brrr.
dusty totem
it's a byproduct of haste being shit
Also means that we do shit all in lust
trail mantle
!craft
latent garnet
alt rogue here - can craft 2 675 daggers and one 658 off piece or a 675 dagger, 658 offhand and 675 off piece - any suggestions?
wide kernel
Subs damage feels a lot better if you aren't in an awful comp for it. I've been trying to form groups with warrior + shaman and my dps actually seems competitive
spring torrent
is anyone on here able to help me fix up my rotation. I feel like not much changed tuning-wise, since last season but my parses this season are significantly worse than last. I don't think I have changed how I am playing though. Any tips?
jaunty umbra
posting a log would help maybe
spring torrent
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wcfLRzPgyXD6BpbM?fight=23&type=damage-done I'm obviously the only sub rogue in the raid.
wide kernel
Sub is bottom of raid tier lists
I think Aug literally gets more representation in higher level logs
lilac stag
is anyone on here able to help me fix up my rotation. I feel like not much chang...
!mistakes
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals of during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
spring torrent
yeah, but my parses are based on comparison to other sub rogues, so I'm just trying to improve myself and not play meta
I think one thing I am having difficulty with is managing energy. I get capped on CP but then have to wait for energy. I know this is a big mistake but the last time I knew how to manage that rotationally was when we had auto attacks proccing CP. I don't know how to manage that without having thistle tea and only really having Symbols as a energy boost
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".
lilac stag
You should never have issues with energy in CDs
spring torrent
ok, so I should really be pooling energy when I see that my cooldowns are about to be up
spring torrent
that's what I mean, when the cooldown window is coming up, i.e. I have 30 more seconds before I can press them again, I should pool energy so that it is easy to spend and get as many abilities off as possible
wide kernel
It doesn't matter. You essentially have unlimited energy inside cds
spring torrent
oh I see. So what that really is saying I don't need to worry about the downtime where I'm struggling to get energy. Does this also mean that I shouldn't be using SoD outside SD? or is it ok to use it sometimes outside SD windows?
wide kernel
It depends on the context of what you're doing
In m+ you usually get two sd/sod uses between flag/blades
In raid it's less
lilac stag
No shaman and it’s less
wide kernel
Does your opener look like the one on wowhead? I can't figure out how to read logs to save my life
wide kernel
No shaman and it’s less
Shaman is love, shaman is life
lilac stag
Nah. Fuck the reliance on this spec and that class.
lilac stag
They’re not 10% big
spring torrent
wait does having a melee shammy really affect the parses that much?
spring torrent
like difference between a blue and a green parse?
lilac stag
Idgaf about parses
spring torrent
oh
wide kernel
They’re not 10% big
Monk + warrior is about the same value as shaman though isn't it?
lilac stag
Not even close
spring torrent
I see. Also my opener doesn't look like the one linked above. my question on that, though, is how come the opener linked aboved doesn't start with shadowstrike?
spring torrent
also how much a difference would it make to use bubbling wax for one of the daggers instead of the ironclaw whetstone on both
lilac stag
Sim it
spring torrent
bubbling wax isn't in sims I tried
spring torrent
thank you!
wide kernel
thank you!
One thing I think I see in your log is your popping shadow blades, right off the rip. And I don't even see flagellation?
First flag is 1:40
Review the wowhead guide maybe
spring torrent
ok thank you!
still quartz
alt rogue here - can craft 2 675 daggers and one 658 off piece or a 675 dagger, ...
ilvl on offhand doesnt matter much
half comet
do we use magnet in any special way
or just dont fuck up and use it around the cooldowns
short radish
i think magnet flurries
but dont quote me on that
it's not really a much used trinket
still quartz
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wcfLRzPgyXD6BpbM?fight=23&type=damage-done ...
Sorry but seems like rotation is all messed up and wrong. Sub is pretty much execl gaming so look up the guide in wowhead should help
lucid jackal
sub is not excel gaming at all
A lot of things can just be intuitively figured out when it comes to timing this tier
You need to learn how to do your flag cds properly
still quartz
yeah not excel gaming but static rotation
paper iron
do it during the cast if you re a gigachad even
wispy bolt
3k acquired after a timed 14 top 
(basically full pug )
raven maple
Do you need to focus the target you used flagellation and shadow blades, or can you switch targets?
nimble briar
general question, if i craft an item say wrist, and i get a drop for wrist. I should be able to upgrade to same level without crest righ?
lucid jackal
Do you need to focus the target you used flagellation and shadow blades, or can ...
yes
lucid jackal
general question, if i craft an item say wrist, and i get a drop for wrist. I sh...
yes
raven maple
so flag and blades changes buff comes from you not the target?
paper iron
keep in mind flag does damage while stacking and your target must be alive the whole stacking phase of flag 
other than that, you can switch target
paper iron
so make sure the target you used flag on survive, 12s? That is i think
lucid jackal
flag rik swap targets if u want
paper iron
^
torn mountain
Hi all! any tips on when tu pop ravenous buzzer trink? Im thinking start on that after first SS then shadowstep back to original target and continue as normal, but just wanted to know if it interacts with any of our cds?
dire saddle
Should I be trying to maintain tier set stacks outside of dance windows by just re-applying rupture over and over?
lucid jackal
iongore tier
raven maple
Doesn't matter what target
Thanks, does the same go for Blades?
paper iron
blades is a buff on you, can freely switch during it
sub is good a target swapping, unlike assa, or outlaw because of ghostly strike
but while target swapping during your cds, make sure to have you uptime high, need these 8 cast per dance and this 2nd sectech to fit within blades
wide kernel
When you go into your 2nd dance, do you use backstab for a stack of danse macabre
paper iron
you do it every dance
the only time you dont is if you dont have find weakness up and you re not behind your target
raven maple
but while target swapping during your cds, make sure to have you uptime high, ne...
We need 8 casts of eviscerate per dance?
twilit phoenix
We need 8 casts of eviscerate per dance?
no just 8 globals total
wide kernel
the only time you dont is if you dont have find weakness up and you re not behin...
Doesn't shadowstrike apply find weakness already though? So the backstab in each dance is just for macabre?
twilit phoenix
Doesn't shadowstrike apply find weakness already though? So the backstab in each...
yeah but if you happen to enter dance without FW -> BS (without being behind the boss) -> sectech
ur losing damage
hexed sluice
Mugzee heroic, it seems every gaol lines up with my dance/sod/sectech line up in some form or way, so I should pretty much just solo it right and everyone else hit boss?
Im not seeing anything in journal that would prevent this
sullen hare
I don't know if gaols have minimums but that's a cute way to go about it
hexed sluice
Mugzee heroic, it seems every gaol lines up with my dance/sod/sectech line up in...
this is appearing to be the wave for my group so that we can phase him before second big soak
civic swallow
Whats the item called to add a socket to neck?
shy scarab
Whats the item called to add a socket to neck?
Search for setting and u should find it
civic swallow
ty
wild hornet
Do you guys hold flag sblades on stix for first sorting or you send on pull?
I feel like im padding more with the first delay but idk what happens for the last use
upbeat escarp
Send on pull , you only delay the 3rd cds for after the move of the boss at that part
And then wait for your second pot for last cds
You can also check lorgsio website where you can see exact cd timers for every mythic boss of the 100 top parses
You can also delay also a bit the second set of cds for after the magnet pulling if you wanna be safe and then you almost dont have to delay at 3rd cds
tribal blade
haha yeah, he's my guildie
he's prepping his ret because he's getting sick of pushing as arms
wants to just wongo bongo press divine storm
dry plank
I’m prepping enhance 😦
tribal blade
yeah ret is stupid
upper narwhal
finally timed a 15 priory with my team
That’s not a Sub icon 
vale pine
finally timed a 15 priory with my team
nicu
keen dome
finally timed a 15 priory with my team
that's so much damage..... 😨
fierce cedar
all aoe no st
alpine wraith
for assa priory is kinda good as first boss has 2t to get more st
second one just get carried bozo tho
and last one is a healer boss anyway
tribal blade
that is what matters
I AM TRUE
tribal blade
all aoe no st
that's kinda what the meta is this season, you do mongo aoe dam and take a bit on bosses
honest jewel
at 15 you can keep pulling mobs in to the boss fight, if u have a gamer tank. When I play with my friend my dps is like 30% higher than pug tanks lol
tribal blade
that's so much damage..... 😨
ngl this straight up feels like cheating with bleed sin haha, literally just spread bleeds, shiv, topping dmg
tepid sonnet
Hey guys im approaching to rogue sub, can u suggest me some good stuff for learn basic to advanced tips and tricks about it?
alpine wraith
or watch my videos they are in the sheet in my profile and as always if you have any questions specifically just ask here
tribal blade
Hey guys im approaching to rogue sub, can u suggest me some good stuff for learn...
main thing you want is to get the cd rotation down, then learn how to get to your next cd set without fucking up dance/symbols charges
void ocean
so you guys ever have any issues with master sound channel in boss encounters, in manner that some of ur e.g. weak aura sounds dont go through due to the environment sounds etc?
alpine wraith
sound channels can get overloaded yes
void ocean
any ideas how to fix that, maybe
it bothers me sometimes, cause i have sound warning when my SD ends so i can chain em, and if i dont hear it during some mechanics, im late a few seconds with the second dance
now I also have visual WA for it but if Im dodging shit etc I like to rely on sound as well
void ocean
I did turn off everything but the environment bc if i turn off that i will be like im deaf
sly shore
then turn that off too
void ocean
It will be shitty if I end up just hearing dbm/wa
sly shore
it's a 50/50 of people who play with and without game sound
but for ex.
go watch a rwf player
how many have any game sounds on other than wa and bigwigs
pretty sure it's close to zero
simply because it supresses more valuable sound cues
void ocean
so they never heard R-R-R-RIK-A-RIK... :d
sly shore
I turned on music in heroic
why would you ever need to hear that
you might want to
but you don't need to
keen dome
Oh, I have.
Although Mug'zee has good voicelines
And so does Gally, they're pretty good
void ocean
TRASH, TRASH... YOU ARE ALL TRASH
tribal blade
RIK-A-RIK-A_REVERRRRBBBBB
keen dome
It feels like there's alot more voice line clutter this season than last. Last they all just did the comical Shouting Their Moves but this season has a lot more nonsense in it
void ocean
yea, i mean, they keep yappin
back in the days we used to have awesome memorable things like "BOOOOOONEEESTOOOOOORRRRRM"
void ocean
daddy, I did it
tribal blade
to me you're cutting off 50% of the game's ambience and vibe if you turn off game sounds
so i keep em on
sly shore
yeah sure
but I also totally do not need that shit in mythic raiding
I do first playthrough of quests and content with sound
void ocean
i also like to hear my spells
sly shore
then turn that shit off
tribal blade
but yeah when you're only focused on performance it can be annoying
void ocean
i know when they went off
void ocean
i press button 10 times 😄
sly shore
me too
void ocean
sound tells me i can stop pressing it
vale pine
can someone quick give me a pointer
void ocean
☝🏻
vale pine
i know there was a tab with poitions/healthstones used on wcl, i just did not find it quickly... let me see i think its in the summery somewhere
vale pine
thanks, very helpful
void ocean
sry, whats wcl
stiff stirrup
are you all still using circe's ring?
keen dome
I am, ye. Will swap it for Jastor at 678 when Dinars come out, I think.
nothing else has simmed much better yet
sly shore
i know there was a tab with poitions/healthstones used on wcl, i just did not fi...
They removed that tab
it was mechanics
moved to wipefest shit
sly shore
that too
sharp kernel
are you all still using circe's ring?
Most sims are gonna make you use circlet until you get a heroic jastors
solid lotus
reckon you send cds on mythic sprocket after first intermission when he goes for a jog from end to end
or hold for 10 seconds haha
short radish
reckon you send cds on mythic sprocket after first intermission when he goes for...
if you check lorrgs, the 3rd flag is sent at 3:20
do what you will wiht this info
solid lotus
ty
gritty gorge
does nimble flurry also benefit from find weakness?
hazy breach
Yes targets affected by fw take 10% more damage from physical sources like flurry
gritty gorge
so its beneficial to shuriken once with Rotten, even in small AoE situations?
hazy breach
No
Because the strike does more damage than the +10%
Its only for BP where FW is mandatory since otherwise it doesnt do its shadow damage portion
gritty gorge
thanks, understood
So in some dungeons one could theoretically switch out improved shuriken for something else.
rocky ocean
Isn’t it pure phys
hazy breach
So in some dungeons one could theoretically switch out improved shuriken for som...
Well theres nothing else
You have to take a point at the top, so the only thing you could swap it to is shadow focus, which is completely useless 
And if you dont spec imp storm you can spec exhil so
tribal blade
1 talent build for everything
no wait, we swap out 1 talent in keys
i'm trolling
very diverse
very demure
lilac stag
1 talent build for everything
Does mid dmg everywhere.
tribal blade
Does mid dmg everywhere. <:garf:1320173032743899157>
i just started bandit and i'm playing sub, doing quite a bit tbh
lilac stag
tribal blade
but might just be our OP specs not performing that well
lilac stag
at least on logs it’s not performing.
lilac stag
Why is the hunter Bm?
lilac stag
fair
tribal blade
so he's the only person who's not doing dmg makes sense
lilac stag
I’m curious if you run assa where you’d be
tribal blade
i suspect once everyone gets more comfortable with the fight i'm gonna start going lower on the meters
tribal blade
I’m curious if you run assa where you’d be
honestly sub feels much better for add dam so far
hazy breach
Sub is gonna do more add dam for sure
tribal blade
you get fixate adds quite literally right after your 2nd cd set comes up
so you blast em
lilac stag
i suspect once everyone gets more comfortable with the fight i'm gonna start goi...
That was me trying to sort out Rik. Finally just moved to dev blowing everything up and assa ended up better there.
tribal blade
That was me trying to sort out Rik. Finally just moved to dev blowing everything...
niiice
lilac stag
our healer destroyed our dev main. 
something something don’t want to change hero talents
lilac stag
Yea was gonna say
tribal blade
i haven't gotten myth raid loot in something like 2 weejks
we just did our last reclear, myth track boots dropped
i lost the roll to our boomy who isn't in for bandit prog
i was so happy
lilac stag
We hit 60% on stix after one nigh
lilac stag
boomies keep nagging aggro. Yeah trying to get everyone reps seems to be it.
tribal blade
it's actually beneficial for ranged to stand close to melee on the fight
just for aggro reasons
so they kinda box you in
don't ever look at starfall damage on stix
unless you wanna throw up
tribal blade
sub is good on stix too
lilac stag
Basically twiddling thumbs for 35 seconds on pull
tribal blade
oh fml is sin better than sub on stix now because of how they changed the spatter range
lilac stag
Mmhm
tribal blade
goddamnit
that spatter change is unironically a huge aoe buff to sin
as sub you have to literally be zooming around the boss to try to make sure you have as many targets in range of your nimble
tribal blade
stix parsing is kinda a meme anyways
you only parse well if you don't get a ball the entire fight
get a ball, or even 2 and it's kinda gg
vestal escarp
tribal blade
true that is our downtime yeah
lilac stag
I just want dead bosses
tribal blade
stix is literally just doing the balls, that's the whole prog
everything else is filler
lilac stag
It’s actually funny. With our comp I’ve gotten so much hand me down leather and an actual outlaw weapon. 670 just need mythic helm and eventually mythic gloves to replace crafted
lilac stag
I’m running keys for the crests and hopefully pacemaker
tribal blade
one of my guildies who i'm pushing keys with is not happy too
tribal blade
he lost hero track jastors to the boomy not in for bandit
i lost the boots to that same boomy not in for bandit
to avoid the appearance of favoritism they roll off most pieces
tribal blade
but it ends up kinda screwing over loot that should be going to people who will be for every raid boss
and i'm one of those people who's in for every raid boss
lilac stag
Rolling is so fucking stupid
tribal blade
well it's not just rolling to whoever needs, they look at the pool of people and choose who gets to roll
but yeah at the end of the day it's rolling
lilac stag
Do your weekly shit. Don’t die on bosses. Get loot from LC that pushes prog. We’re simple.
I think we’ve had 3 time in the last two years we had to have RL make a tie breaker.
and LC can’t vote if they want it. Usually one of us just bows out if we want it if it’ll be better for someone else.
tribal blade
i kinda get it though, we would have massive loot drama if they chose who every piece went to
i know it
but the opposite thing is happening this tier
lilac stag
simple. You kick them
tribal blade
it hasn't ever been this big a problem
lilac stag
No drama around loot
tribal blade
haha impossible
tribal blade
i think it's fine to be hard on people who aren't doing what they should be to help the raid along
getting weekly keys done is a big part of that
lilac stag
genuinely the RL has zero tolerance on loot
vale pine
loot is always a discussion/conflict topic
lilac stag
quickest way to bench
only is if you have people that don’t know what they’re doing with it
or players that think they’re better than their raid team
tribal blade
loot is always a discussion/conflict topic
i agree, doesn't seem to be a perfect way to do it
vale pine
you always have one thats not happy about it
because he wants a loot piece someone else got
even if people know how and if its fair
not getting the specific loot piece you want can cause conflicts
lilac stag
being disappointed you didn’t get a drop and causing drama are two very different things.
idgaf I didn’t get normal HoC. Would have been nice? Sure. Not going to throw a tantrum over it.
tribal blade
i've stopped being a loot whore, but i've started seeing the way my guild is doing loot is causing issues this tier
more than usual
i think it's just because the rng hasn't been good
and causing people who aren't gonna be in for bosses to get more gear
lilac stag
slowing down your prog
rocky ocean
Less prog less gear
tribal blade
honestly right now just feels like reps on bosses is trumping gear
but yeah def doesn't help
tribal blade
true more dam=kill boss faster
lilac stag
Over the course of the tier, gear distribution usually balances out.
You can see the history of it
You’ll have some players that spike up, then get nothing.
But gearing a person on the bench for a prog boss is 
tribal blade
i'm not really focusing on it right now because it doesn't help anything in the immediate future 😉
we did our last reclear this week and we're just gonna be progging bosses from now on
old venture
we did our last reclear this week and we're just gonna be progging bosses from n...
the fun part of the tier where everyone just accepts that life is gonna be pain
tribal blade
the fun part of the tier where everyone just accepts that life is gonna be pain
HELL yeah
i actually told our RL i voted to stop doing reclears
lilac stag
the fun part of the tier where everyone just accepts that life is gonna be pain
Jokes on you. Sub rogue players always in pain.
tribal blade
because i don't feel like getting more loot is gonna help more than getting pulls on bosses
tribal blade
more reps=boss dies faster
old venture
it's a delicate balance as a RL though because some people will be little bitches because they're not getting loot or at a chance at loot
tribal blade
i can see that
old venture
I wanted to kill bosses as fast as possible so I could stop logging in every tier
so I didn't give a fuck 
lilac stag
I need checks notes 9k dps increase on mythic tier gloves.
no way we get CE without it
old venture
I need *checks notes* 9k dps increase on mythic tier gloves.
the wild part is most of the upgrades people want can be supplemented through them doing keys
lilac stag
mmhm
old venture
outside of raid specific trinkets/rings/etc reclearing does fuck all
old venture
lilac stag
Maybe the Rik ring idk
old venture
is that the +1 luck one
tribal blade
we've done tiers where we do a LOT of reclears
lilac stag
Crit / Haste I think
tribal blade
and it just makes prog take longer feels like
tribal blade
getting the extra ilvl doesn't help people not doing mechanics/dying
old venture
because you're spending time killing bosses so someone can get 8 ilvl to their boots and shit
lmao
where you can just pull the prog boss and learn the fight instead
tribal blade
yeah i'm happy we're doing that this tier
lilac stag
I’m already at the point where crafting isn’t going to help. Most of our raiders are getting there
old venture
did they fix the bosses to not require specifics comps yet
lilac stag
and we’ve got a rat boomie in on Styx
keen dome
I know what you mean with rat boomie but...
Boomkin rat form
Let's go, let Kobolds be druids
tribal blade
did they fix the bosses to not require specifics comps yet
we just started bandit prog
4 spriests
old venture
void ocean
we just started bandit prog
tribal blade
and then gallywix is stacking fire mages i think
void ocean
how hard is to respec from sub rogue to fire mage 😄
tribal blade
if you want infinite dev attention it's very easy
😉
only sado masachists stay sub rogue
keen dome
4 spriests
someday there will be a fight that is this.. but for rogues
tribal blade
someday there will be a fight that is this.. but for rogues
pray
void ocean
now it seems sub is veery good on Stix
graceful osprey
Am I crazy for having 3 rogues, one for each spec
tribal blade
it was really easy for me to respec to sin for keys and do batshit overall
old venture
someday there will be a fight that is this.. but for rogues
be careful what you wish for
the last time that happened they deleted sub rogue for an entire expansion
keen dome
...OH NO
dusty totem
now it seems sub is veery good on Stix
worst of the rogue specs tho
keen dome
I retract my wish. I do not wish to unleash a second Zul
old venture
tribal blade
the last time that happened they deleted sub rogue for an entire expansion
we don't talk about that time
that was a dark time
keen dome
One of many, really
void ocean
i guess when i get to Lockensprock, Blizz is gonna fix DS for sub and it will be top ST
void ocean
i mean they balanced fdk DB tree
mighty citrus
it was really easy for me to respec to sin for keys and do batshit overall
i tried a few keys now as sin, but beside nice trashdmg my bossdmg is so ass
i mean trashdmg is nice, but comming from sub
tribal blade
well you see the last tuning patch they buffed every single spec down at the bottom of the raid charts EXCEPT sub
tribal blade
so that's how you know where we stand with blizz
old venture
i mean trashdmg is nice, but comming from sub
yeah compared to sub you do dogshit ST
graceful osprey
I kinda wish backstab hits harder like backstab in classic feel soooo good but in retail it’s like stabbing something with soft foam
mighty citrus
thats true
i always ask myself if i do stuff majorly wrong, cause it seems so whatever
but apparently it is whatever 😄
lilac stag
now it seems sub is veery good on Stix
You just missed the conv. #subtlety message
old venture
if you ever want a good laugh, pop into assassination where they claim they can feel the difference in ST between dogshit and dogshit (hybrid build vs bleed build)
lilac stag
I just like pressing ambush more
tribal blade
i tried a few keys now as sin, but beside nice trashdmg my bossdmg is so ass
oh dude the aoe is so batshit crazy it doesn't matter you do mediocre ST
lilac stag
and getting PI
tribal blade
it's not even bad st, it's just not good
old venture
yeah its at best meh
old venture
but you just crank in aoe while slamming your face on the keyboard
because all the hard parts of assa aoe are just automated now
tribal blade
with bleed build it's very simple, just spread bleeds and shiv
and then let them do most of the work
mighty citrus
iam so used to env spam, which i should not do ofc due to sanguine
but musclememory needs to relearn
old venture
kinda stinky tbh, I liked the plate spinning
but now it's just done for you
kinda lame
void ocean
I just want dead bosses
the last phase: the acceptance
lilac stag
what amusing is it seems most specs have mid ST in keys. rogues just put sub on a pedestal becuse it is really good, but holy fuck the aoe is awful
old venture
me accepting I'll never do relevant content ever again because I can't dedicate 20 hours a week to wow anymore
old venture
lmfao your arms warrior was probably so upset
just stealing all his execute damage with sudden demise
tribal blade
i think it's not too bad, not entirely sure tbh
mighty citrus
is there actually a way to optimize sd? current state is i dont care about it just play normal
tribal blade
i haven't played with many of them
void ocean
frozenbozo ftw
old venture
one of my buddies plays ret and idk if its the spec or him
paper iron
what amusing is it seems most specs have mid ST in keys. rogues just put sub on ...
Not True btw
paper iron
Uhdk does more St than sub
tribal blade
is there actually a way to optimize sd? current state is i dont care about it ju...
spreading ruptures as stuff is dying and making sure CT is up
that's about it
mighty citrus
i see ty
paper iron
Or at least same st
lilac stag
Uhdk does more St than sub
“Most specs”
void ocean
but spreading ruptures with tab+rupture or vanishing?
lilac stag
UH is not most specs
old venture
but spreading ruptures with tab+rupture or vanishing?
you could tab/mouse over, but I'd just vanish and spread with IC
because fuck that
mighty citrus
but maybe thats wrong 😄
lilac stag
I’m lazy and just keep slamming one target and letting it spread
tribal blade
vanish usage is one of the most important things about playing bleed build
old venture
I’m lazy and just keep slamming one target and letting it spread
amen
tribal blade
it's the 1 cd you need to think about ahead of time
paper iron
My only point was People thinking sub is super good at St doesnt Know what they talking about . It s just that assa is trash and outlaw is inconsistant. These make sub looks good
lilac stag
show non cd pack dmg. 
tribal blade
sub is definitely good ST in keys
but your downtime is horrendous
doing less than tank dmg without cds
it's so bad
void ocean
i keep forgetting that IC is now changed that its not just the first rupture out of stealth
old venture
just farm dance back with shuriken storm -> finisher spam 
paper iron
Yea sub does the same St than udk and below boomie mage all 3 spec lock enhance
old venture
i keep forgetting that IC is now changed that its not just the first rupture out...
it's okay I also forgot about it for the first 2 weeks back in tww
paper iron
And does way less aoe than them also
old venture
so I would cast 1 garrote and 1 rupture
paper iron
Talking in Keys ofc
lilac stag
all I know is we time keys faster when my dmg isn’t getting wasted / waiting on cds
old venture
and kingsbane did damage
lilac stag
really hard to waste bleed dmg
old venture
remember when you could accidentally exsang your deathmark
void ocean
so when u slam it on the same target u actually overwrite 1 and apply 2 new
lilac stag
I miss 
paper iron
Exsangue dm
graceful rock
That’s when I started playing and it’s all coming back to me
paper iron
What à shit that was
lilac stag
imagine assa as the 90 second spec
paper iron
I ve done it on our diurna kill
lilac stag
🍑🍑
mighty citrus
i mean if i wanna play rogue, i need to deal with what the game gives me. its still kinda sad that on important raidbosses you are so much worse than other classes in terms of targetswitching etc
i mean yeah you can hold stuff as sub here and there
but mostly it has a cost right
void ocean
so blizz finally mentioned dinars 
mighty citrus
they did?
paper iron
Remember when your frost gems didnt crit so you were mad and bottom ? Or the otherr way when u had to stop dps on rohkalo but oopsie oopsie my gems crit ma bad bro
lilac stag
Remember when your frost gems didnt crit so you were mad and bottom ? Or the oth...
You only didn’t crit if you were bad
lilac stag
Jastors
keen dome
I don't think they're not relevant anymore
paper iron
i mean if i wanna play rogue, i need to deal with what the game gives me. its st...
Tbf. Besides killing spree, all 3 specs have cool gamepnay rn. Just lacking some tuning
keen dome
I expect them to come around like, May / June. Which is just over half-way through the season
void ocean
its gona be "ad(d) hoc" 😄
keen dome
When they'll be pretty good for a lot of people
void ocean
bruh this patch will be dead like a Dodo in June
mighty citrus
Tbf. Besides killing spree, all 3 specs have cool gamepnay rn. Just lacking some...
i think for ever taste there is something yeah. but in terms of numbers, you just cant do some raidrelevantthings properly as sin for example
try to switch on adds on bandit
and see what happens 😄
paper iron
Assa always been bad at switching
It s à sit boss ass designed class
From as far as i remember and i started in 2005
Same with bm, or Fire mage. Switching is just super bad for some specs it is what it is
void ocean
From as far as i remember and i started in 2005
this just means ur memory is not good as it used to 😄
void ocean
i remember
paper iron
Switxhing target made u lose every co
old venture
Your CP was on your target not on u
THE GOOD OLD DAYS
void ocean
i was pvp player tho
paper iron
paper iron
void ocean
i started in 2008. so a bit later
paper iron
10s cloak
old venture
man
void ocean
dodge scaling from agi if i recall
old venture
yep
void ocean
u could tank xD
paper iron
Yep
old venture
your only kryptonite was warriors
paper iron
Yep
Still is today i think
Which is à Nice archetype
Rogue should ne weak to oogabooga warriors
Rememebr back then cloth classes werent tanky ?
old venture
nope
void ocean
except sl/sl
paper iron
Now they all have 10 Def, more hp than you, and just chill
old venture
the tankiest clothie was priest because of inner fire giving them a ton of armor
paper iron
Can wr talk about it? Pvp they spammed condemn which was à charge so u couldnt kite
old venture
and it just gave them this giant absorb shield for the damage it did? or was that the cov leggo
paper iron
And in pve they spammed condemn from 100 to 60% and then 30 to 0
void ocean
bliz rly gave up on pvp early
old venture
echoing reprimand bug for sub rogue
short radish
We had some bullshit as rogue also in sl
sepsis zug zug
old venture
lmfao
it bypassed all armor reduction from stealth
so it would legit 1 shot people
lasted 2 weeks
void ocean
i stopped pvp with beginning of SL... 8.3 actually killed it for me
old venture
its okay you didn't miss anything
paper iron
Stealth mfd ks garr garr rupt sepsis exsang vendetta vanish
void ocean
i remember random corruption 100-0% u in like 3 sec
old venture
and their fix was to shorten the sepsis debuff
paper iron
Ma 100% crit
old venture
which made the pop happen faster
paper iron
old venture
paper iron
Sepsis stacking for fun
old venture
blizz's pvp team didn't realize that the sepsis damage was the last bonk
not the stupid ass dot
paper iron
Another fun one from sl was Hunter
old venture
so they were like OH WE'LL SHORTEN IT
paper iron
Or my worst nightmare was necro dh
100% self hp bar heal every 10s
White being giga tanky baseline
So u had to figure out how to Kill the priest Who was playing revive leggi
Leggo
Everyone was busted in SL pvp. Made it fun for à couple hour then Boring. Stupid one shot season
Let s not talk about ww
void ocean
i always hated any kind of monk xD
old venture
bonedust proccing on sck
and then the bug where it could proc itself
so you'd get 1 ticked
paper iron
Or gdrood bdk comp lmao
void ocean
get into arena with some serious z-axis against monks, u can go fudge urself
old venture
I remember if you got caught out in the open by a balance druid
and just get convoked
and they'd proc a full moon and you'd just die
paper iron
Or prot pala healer
void ocean
who lost that AWC by getting convoked by Trill
old venture
Or prot pala healer
void ocean
was it Whazz
paper iron
What à mess
old venture
PROT PALA BIS HEALER IN ARENA
it was bis healer in super high keys too
iirc
because you could just giga pull everything cuz 2 tanks
void ocean
or it was Pika
old venture
the maestro?
short radish
oh man crusader
old venture
remember when he faked having cancer to get more twitch subs?
paper iron
Smashing his pc after getting one shot by comvoke
old venture
lol
short radish
what a guy
paper iron
tribal blade
i will not sit here in silence and watch one of the most calm and skillful wow players ever have his name slandered
paper iron
twilit phoenix
oh shit we're talking about crusader?
love that schizo
if he isn't institutionalized within a few years, I'd be surprised
twilit phoenix
he's got those weird fucked up biceps too
honest brook
is it possible to out dps balance in m+ as sub?
hollow spear
won't catch me laughing
I think I have a level 50 turkey somewhere
even though their single target is still not great afaik
at least in raid
tribal blade
is it possible to out dps balance in m+ as sub?
you maybe have a shot in the lower target count dungeons
but very likely NOPE
slate marlin
Boomie got à buff
I guess bc of pure st?
paper iron
In m+ it was already one of the best st
While Being one of the best aoe
Now it s probably top 3 st
slate marlin
So they gave a st buff that resulted in a buff in dungeons
paper iron
They dont éven nerfed the aoe
hazy breach
I mean it was mostly neutral
tribal blade
one of the big things that makes boomy so good right now is between a veng dh and boomy you can lock down dangerous packs for a very long time
hazy breach
They nerfed starfall by 10%
paper iron
They nerfed starf
They buffed everything else
Like
It s avtually à little nerf on 3 pulls
In the entire dungeon pool
slate marlin
Its squishy af but oracle disc exists
tribal blade
once i realized you can kinda spam feint as sin i feel pretty tanky now in keys
it's not like pressing feint as sub and bricking your energy
paper iron
Rogue can do z dps in and out of elu
U cant spam feint as bleed build
That s also why it s trash
Need that sanguine blades
tribal blade
you def can in aoe
paper iron
Yea ofc
tribal blade
it's a bit weird getting used to not spamming envenom in ST playing bleed build
mighty citrus
once i realized you can kinda spam feint as sin i feel pretty tanky now in keys
try that in raid 😄
tribal blade
in raid i don't really give a shit haha, the incoming damage is usually less scary than M+
you only really need to feint important moments in raid
haughty rose
why on earth is sub rogue in A tier in wowhead's LoU tier list while outlaw and assa are B Tier and MM is C tier? I know tier lists are bs but this seems delusional no? Or am i missing something there and sub actually deserves that spot?
graceful rock
How do I live through stix prog, any tips for keeping myself stimmed?
haughty rose
tier list are bullshit
sure but wowhead should know better innit
paper iron
it s generated by chat gpt
these kind of tierlist
or random people
again, full bullshit
it s not a tier list at all, it s either a feeling about our class list or a data list
nothing such as a tier list
like feral being s+ tier in many m+ tier list just because some ferals have 3k5+ io, that s just data, not actual tier
(even tho i swear feral slaps)
uncut socket
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
kind bluff
Meh I ignore tier lists. I'll take a good player on a bad spec any day.
keen dome
The only good tier list is a funny tier list
kind bluff
Gestalt-super ssssssssssss tier.
Belais-z tier.
keen dome
My tier list just ranking the funniest jokes I've seen people using to join my pug groups
I had someone with "Why do Combat rogues prefer swords? They aren't a fan of knives" on reset.
Pretty good
vale pine
rather make raid buffs obsolte
keen dome
Just give us consumables
honest jewel
10 man raid would be legendary.
proven plover
U can raid 10 man tho
Imagine how scuffed mythic tuning would be if they would have 2 tuning targets rather than 1
They are struggling with the 20 man already
vale pine
i think its overestimated
if you want to restrict mythic
only allow 20 man for hof
but give 10 man or flex to those who just want to clear the raid
raid size is a huge pain for a lot of people, in terms of performance impact
as well as reliably getting 20 man to show up
keen dome
but give 10 man or flex to those who just want to clear the raid
🙏
Flex mythic would be amazing
Get rid of the ID lockout too and I'd do a lot more mythic
vale pine
that too
the raid id system is just there to restrict access
in a game where having the option to play is key to keep players engaged
proven plover
Ppl would just buy ids then
vale pine
i mean
people do that
they buy kills
but making people not locked if they join a raid who already killed e.g. the first mythic boss
proven plover
Ye but then they Could to that without limits
vale pine
idk why thats a problem
keen dome
It makes it impossible hard to pug and while I understand Blizz doesn't want people pugging mythic..
It makes it frustrating and annoying.
It also makes it difficult for smaller or weaker guilds to really do the content.
vale pine
exactly
keen dome
Love to ask if we wanna try Mythic this tier and 16 people say yes and 5 people say no. Guess we don't do Mythic. 🫡
proven plover
Why not recruit a couple more and Form a mythic roster then
If you have 16 already
slate marlin
flex mythic would slap
keen dome
Why not recruit a couple more and Form a mythic roster then
Because that's a lot of effort when you are just touching mythic
slate marlin
Why not recruit a couple more and Form a mythic roster then
Because you need 4 people that reliable show up, arent toxic, and wont hold the guild progress back
keen dome
And people don't stick around if they can't go immediately. It's a lot of extra work for Heroic guilds to push up to Mythic if you don't have a viable roster immediately
slate marlin
and for a guild that clears say 4/8Mm, thats way too hard to achieve
keen dome
It's fine that it isn't a thing, but it's still frustrating.
lilac stag
If you have 16 already
Because you need 8 more.
casual mythic and missing raid ain’t worth the headaches
keen dome
Back in Legion and BfA, my casual AotC guild wanted to do mythic raiding. We would consistently end up with 14 - 16 people interested and 5 - 10 not. As a recruitment officer at the time, it was an absolute nightmare trying to make it viable without also creating long-term issues in the guild, conflicts, or just cycling through people.
proven plover
Fair but 16 is a good amount to at least consider trying imo
keen dome
It's not fun at all.
You immediately run into people clashing because their goals are now very different
proven plover
I get it
keen dome
I don't think the game needs to change, but it'd be nice. Esp as I'm a Puglord these days and I like the idea of pugging Mythic prog.
proven plover
But its also sad if you hold yourselves back just because of potential headaches
Personally id just try
keen dome
I remember a lot of "I'll only join if I get a guranteed raid spot" lol
We did try some Mythic Eternal Palace but couldn't get 20 consistent people and trying to do that with 18 was a pain.
proven plover
I remember a lot of "I'll only join if I get a guranteed raid spot" lol
Ill never understand These ppl
What do they think would Happen if theyd go on a vacation for a couple weeks
19 ppl would just say yea well See you guys in 2 Weeks
And then next Person gets a kid
keen dome
Haha, yeah. It's a pretty big red flag, imo. Because it's misunderstanding the team aspect of raiding. I also saw it a lot in Heroic when we had flex raiding which was very confusing.
proven plover
I get that people dont like to feel like theyre the second choice because they get benched
keen dome
Ye, nobody likes being benched but it's part and parcel of the content.
We used to be a 25-man guild and doing roster rotations and benching was pretty common back in Cata / MoP, etc.
proven plover
There is also a big difference between getting benched while rotating players for gear/vault optimization
And getting benched for the Prog boss
keen dome
Yeah, absolutely
proven plover
Idk you guys are right the System is kinda fucked
The more i think about it
We should be fighting bosses not the System
keen dome
It's frustrating, yeah. I would personally just make mythic raid locks work like Heroic and that'd probably go pretty far
Because then you could actually pug people or have people raiding with people groups having fun, etc.
fallow nimbus
Mythic lockout is just outdated
keen dome
100%
fallow nimbus
Who cares about people sharing ids, if they need an id they won't kill any boss anyway
lilac stag
Pushing the trying mythic narrative.
proven plover
I mean the only thing that feels weird to me is CE being a lot more affordable
lilac stag
Go make your own guild and see how starting mythic goes.
fallow nimbus
Make CE guild group only 
proven plover
So then they will invite buyers for the kill or what
fallow nimbus
With guild rep atleast honored or revered 
proven plover
keen dome
My dream guild is a very strange beast
It would require players who can play at a high level but not want to push into Mythic. It cannot exist. It is a unicorn.
The week 1 AotC guild.
steel horizon
why finality be simming 2% higher in dungeon slice? i thought it was only better in ST scenarios
compared to the rotten that is
kind bluff
My guild is deciding to not continue mythic sadly so I'm about to be hunting for a new guild :[
swift tinsel
yes
procs and consumes
because its 3 eviscerates
unless they changed how it interacts with coup
fallen crescent
My guild is deciding to not continue mythic sadly so I'm about to be hunting for...
My guild lowkey on the same boat.
worn ivy
why darkbrew over deper daggers
swift tinsel
what context
worn ivy
M+ aoe
proven plover
Go make your own guild and see how starting mythic goes.
Well every guild started out somehow, i dont understand what the Issue is
My guild started out as 8 irl friends who recruited completely random people
swift tinsel
who is running dark brew in m+
proven plover
Sure its a lot of work but if people want to raid mythic theres nothing wrong with trying
proven plover
who is running dark brew in m+
Its the highest simming dslice build on the fuu sheet, at least it was
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
worn ivy
swift tinsel
looks like a pathing issue, idk haven't looked into it too much