subtlety

[lilac stag]

idk I like the chain pulling with bleeds going into next pull. just vanish

[random hare]

on 2nd boss u hold deathmark when boss is at 30% hp

for the pack after boss

generally u wont have to hold for "long" if ur grp is good

since their dps will be good

so u send ur deathmark on the pack before 3rd boss

and tp out insta

[crystal bone]

so the kelp pack

gotcha

can u make it back in time after rp ends

i bet its close lol

[random hare]

something doesnt add up here guys

[alpine wraith]

r1 lfr

[crystal bone]

[fallow nimbus]

That wcl addon is so funny

[lilac stag]

R1 logger is best at actually logging

not best logs

[crystal bone]

i need to get wcl addon

peak memes

[paper iron]

i m pretty sure

this dude

think he s r1 logger

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/cutting-trees-david-attenborough-a-life-on-our-planet-logging-cut-gif-20429614

[paper iron]

cuz when he sees his key

he s all 100 parse

and he cant process

[random hare]

censi

this is a frost dk otp i guess

lets see how it goes

[paper iron]

ok

[lilac stag]

what are you running?

[paper iron]

frost probably better than uh in here

imo

[worthy relic]

no stream for chat?

[paper iron]

have some french zero

[random hare]

lmao wtf is that supposed to mean

[random hare]

no sorry

maybe after i raid

[worthy relic]

sadge

[jaunty heath]

where is the sim with the bis gear?

[alpine wraith]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[alpine wraith]

there it is

[jaunty heath]

ty buddy

[spark dawn]

Whats the go to spec for farming the pvp trinket? And how many wins do we need?

[dense lichen]

Just join a war crate group. Takes like 2 hours to get enough conquest and you can mostly afk for it.

[molten citrus]

Spec doesn’t really matter

They’re all good in pvp

[paper iron]

so

double rogue sub in ws is approved

the worst is just end of packs nothing dies

how to know u have the same rogue brain

[spark dawn]

I see thanks. Icy veins pvp guide is good? Or any other site u recommend?

[random hare]

definitely not approved

its rly bad

[paper iron]

just nothing dies at the end of pack

gimme also 6 more ilvls

[molten citrus]

they're okay for getting the very basics, like the rotation is ok for beginners. don't follow their gear guide if you plan on buying any gear for pvp.

[valid vault]

what dungeons does sub struggle in?

is it just cinder?

[paper iron]

first part of floodgate

priory

#subtlety message

this is a good thing zero put earlier, i kinda agree with it

[valid vault]

purple sub and piss assa?

[spark dawn]

Big thanks!

[paper iron]

i let u read arround the precedent and afterward messages

basically yes

[valid vault]

guess i play sub wherever its best and grief team with outlaw on others

[lilac stag]

Just play outlaw everywhere

[valid vault]

just depressing playing that shit

[hazy breach]

We love getting nerfed by bugfixes without compensation

[lilac stag]

Way of the rogue

[rocky ocean]

They kinda crank in raid so could be worse

[valid vault]

give it a week

[solemn creek]

Thinking about some big brain move for top. Anyone knows if u can use dungeon gate while in a m+?

[hazy breach]

You mean teleport to the dungeon?

Yes

[solemn creek]

Mmm. Was thinking about starting bleed. And after construct and ghost wing done. Tp swap to sub and do the arena wing/last boss as sub

U wouldnt be even lose that much time swapping

[hazy breach]

Ye that makes sense

[honest saddle]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[honest saddle]

whats the macro for cast sequence dance into backstab

[solemn creek]

!dance

Nope

I know the macro exist as a command.

[honest saddle]

yeah, I've seen it

[rocky ocean]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow DanceThis will cast Shadow Dance on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[honest saddle]

thanks babies

[solemn creek]

Ahh there we go

[random hare]

mega meta

reroll dk angle

[lilac stag]

have it ready in 2 days EZ

[vestal escarp]

finished timewalkings for weekly just now

[lilac stag]

anything good?

[vestal escarp]

spam a rotaion faq dont let me go to acherus

[vestal escarp]

wrists

[lilac stag]

just watch a biceps vid

or goto his discord

[jaunty umbra]

here's how to play uhdk :
scourage strike -> deathcoil

epidemic if you feel like padding

[torn storm]

do we backstab in every dance?

in st

[pseudo wasp]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals of during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[limpid sage]

If you don’t have skyfury, is it normal to not be able to fit 2x Dance just as your flag comes up?

Also can’t send a dry sectech very often

[lucid jackal]

Ya u get less CP without skyfury

[limpid sage]

Ye ok just wanted to make sure it’s a consistent thing without it

[glossy oak]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[mighty citrus]

Does the order for sb macro matter at all? Should not no?

[random hare]

chat

sub rogue is rly good with udk

no cap

super good synergy

bloodbeast+our cds

= pack dies exactly within our cd

boom bam

[glossy oak]

!WA

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[crystal bone]

everything is rly good with udk

[haughty mural]

im mad about bleed build

so im happy when i can play sub with udk

[lilac stag]

bleed build good

[wild hornet]

bleed build.. havent heard that for 2 expansions

did they buff assa

[placid verge]

Hello guys, have WA for rogue sub with sound activation when CDs are up ?

[wild hornet]

[lilac stag]

Just add sounds or tts to whatever WA pack you like

[keen trellis]

Hello, currently progressing Bunkjunker. Do we actively switch target with dance on bombs/scrapmaster? Or cleave from boss?

[worn schooner]

depends how quickly your raid is getting the bombs on medium piles to 80%. If that's happening really fast you can probs just cleave off the boss.

[mystic bough]

Woohoo I am finally free from the transmitter jail 😎

[vale pine]

congrats

[lilac stag]

ah the demise of sub visible is new wowhead post.

[paper iron]

what what

sudden demise sub?

[lilac stag]

Mythic only dps graphs.

[sacred path]

How you dawgs find m+... Seems like the dmagae profile should be sick for speeding run along

[paper iron]

run your key

[lilac stag]

Feast or famine. You do dmg to bosses & packs when you have CDs. Overall details gonna be less than assa in most cases. Play wherever you want.

It’s better with a shaman

[haughty mural]

I know I know 😦

[edgy zenith]

is there a bug with first boss of rookery and sectech?

seems like clones aren't hitting?

when he's in middle or something?

[hazy breach]

Ye seems so

[edgy zenith]

ewwie

[plush roost]

Its inconsistent, cause I've definitely had clones hit in the middle

[edgy zenith]

guess I low rolled

looked at my dam and I was like "that is not normally"

[plush roost]

I wonder if it has to do with him charging down after intermission or as he teleports

[edgy zenith]

yeah maybe

that would be insanely bad timing though lmao

to have 4 go into those windows?

wish I had a vod

or a log

[plush roost]

Not sure i play without damage numbers and thats one of those times I wish i had them on

[edgy zenith]

yeah I only keep them on for nimble

wish I could disable

[meager coyote]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tranquil garden]

this isn't very hard to make, I can send you my windwalker monk one and you can adapt it to rogue if you want

I never made it when I switched to rogue because there's really only one you gotta track, and you have to plan ahead for it anyway so reacting as it comes off cooldown isn't so helpful

[sacred path]

seems pretty similar to arcane which has been a blast honestly this season just wondered if you guys were having the same sort of joy

[lilac stag]

it’s whatever

fun is only what you find in it

No one else

[wispy bolt]

Im now running myth pacemaker and myth azerokks. So cooked lol

[lilac stag]

spend a hour and farm the pvp trinket.

[covert pine]

broskis when i'm out of dance can I pop simbols or wait?

[slate hedge]

!logs

[hazy breach]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals of during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[honest brook]

after 1 week learning and playing sub i changed spec to assa for one dung and bored in first pull so baaaaad how the fk is slow i feel i was slowmotion lol never sin again

zero clue how ppl have fun on sin no way

[cedar willow]

You ok?

[lilac stag]

assa in aoe is likely even or higher apm than sub.

[brazen stone]

Who r some sub rogue streamers to watch for highish keys? Like 16s n shit

[lilac stag]

twitch

Sorry zero

[brazen stone]

Is that his name?

Ah

[lilac stag]

he plays both

[brazen stone]

Zero is who i watch for sin

He plays sub too?

ah

[lilac stag]

usually for a couple

[brazen stone]

Every time ive tuned in i just see sin

[lilac stag]

Rogue and streamers aren’t much of a thing

barely anyone plays the class

[brazen stone]

Wox for outlaw, casual/zero for sin

Dont rlly know any1 for sub

[lilac stag]

Sub is typically the least played spec of the three

Stealthi streams raid, idk if raccoon decided to push keys or not tbh

Otherwise poke around #rogue-streamers

[sharp onyx]

is it normal for dps to plummet during downtime? i feel like mine goes down too much. like i go from top dps at the beginning to almost last during downtime.

[hazy breach]

Yes sub is very much a burst spec

You do all of your damage during cds, and then not a whole lot

[mighty citrus]

on sprocket, for third cds u usually delay for after the big movement. question is, if i send directly when rdy another dance and delay my big cds from 3:20 then to something like 3:25-3:30. i would so or so only get one more set into current killtime

[hazy breach]

Ye delay the one at 3 min to like 3:30ish

You want to hold the 4:30 one for 5 min and pot anyway

[mighty citrus]

yeah exactly

but would i send another dance

at 3:00

so i dont sit on 2 charges of dance

[hazy breach]

Ye

[mighty citrus]

i tried both and it was dependend on my refunds

of how long i needed to delay

so a bit wonky, thats why i ask

[hazy breach]

Well assuming your killing it at like 6 min youre not really losing anything if the flag happens at 5:10 instead of 5:00

[mighty citrus]

i feel like my dps sucks on this fight anyway 😄

1.9 to 2.x mio dmg on our 1% wipe

somewhere there

toplogs have 2.3

will never reach that

[calm kraken]

what poisons should we use for raid and m+

[lilac stag]

Healers may out dps you during downtime

[sharp onyx]

I see. So, I am normal lol

[lilac stag]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[covert pine]

why sometimes shadowstrike in dance gives 5/6 CP?

🤔

[hazy breach]

Shadow techniques

[final holly]

Anyone know how to consistently auto log dungeons? I'm using bigwigs to turn on logging on countdown but it generally only logs up to the first boss and stops which is less than helpful. I also don't really want to have logging turned on permanently

[random mason]

Raider io application

Works for me most of the time

Or a wa/addon that enables it automatically

[jaunty heath]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[strange chasm]

has sin taken over on OAB

logs dont even show sub up in the top 😦

[hazy breach]

Sin does more boss damage ye because you just sit on boss

[plush roost]

Depends what your guild needs

If u have no ww or uh dk

Whos killing the 1:40 bombs

[finite spire]

is versatility actually 1 for 1 with % to damage gain? or is it more complicated than that

[tribal blade]

it's not hero track but oooo

[hazy breach]

Its simple as that

[finite spire]

rip. Was trying to get away with my Sin rogue gear as sub, but I'm missing out on like 15% vers

if I recraft and all that

[hazy breach]

I mean other stats also increase your damage

1% crit is also 1% damage on average

[finite spire]

if I use my sin gear, its like 32% crit and 5% vers. If I converted it all, it would be maybe 20ish% crit and 18%ish vers

but yeah you are right its prob not that huge of a difference

Ill sim it at some point when im not feeling lazy

[tribal blade]

that's a decent spread

[finite spire]

I am just so crit/mastery heavy on all gear and crafts

[tribal blade]

oh energy drink is neutral over pacemaker

on sub

i guess i have a fuckton of mast already

[lucid jackal]

I dont think its actually better

but its good damage

cuz iI think u get DM lust

[hazy breach]

Sub does insanely well on the 1:50 bombs and on the last set of assistants when you have all of your cds up

[bleak wind]

I wish I can do that on sub

[hazy breach]

Meadery?

[bleak wind]

priory

thats with sub gear as well

[hazy breach]

That doesnt matter much

But ye assa good for big overall

[lucid jackal]

sin doesnt do anything with gear

[hazy breach]

Big sudden demise procs is big fun

[half comet]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[bleak wind]

its my lowest of the bunch tbh, I either I am doing something wrong or it gets better with people doing more damage

[hazy breach]

As bleed? Or still with kb

[bleak wind]

the bleed build

[half comet]

is mythiuc magnet ever going to be better than a mythic seaforium its currently not for me but wondering if it gets better with diff gear

[bleak wind]

thats how it looked like, I guess it should be higher up

[hazy breach]

6.3% is fine, but could be higher ye

[bleak wind]

I am rarely reapplying bleeds so if the pack lasts a bit longer then the demises are not gonna be as big

[tribal blade]

iirc sudden demise is ~10% of my overall in every key

[bleak wind]

ye looking at DFC it was my second with 13%

I guess kinda depends on group and how long they live

[hazy breach]

But ye hopefully sub gets some numerical love so its better for keys

[bleak wind]

bring back the tier set from ptr

[hazy breach]

Making it work on sectech always would be a good start

[bleak wind]

is it still bugged randomly

I thought they fixed that

[hazy breach]

Ye

Nop not fixed

Matters a lot less when its 16% compared to 60% ig

[bleak wind]

a little bit less

[slate marlin]

I still dont understand getting nerfed bc of prepatch stuff

but then let unholy untouched on live

[bleak wind]

I mean 60% might be a bit too high, but I also think 16% is a bit too low

[hazy breach]

Yep

Surely theres some buffs coming with the .5 patch

[bleak wind]

ye trust

[lucid jackal]

Because they dont balance the game around M+

thats why unholy is untouched

[hazy breach]

I am aware, i just dont get why

[tribal blade]

if memory serves they always tune around raid before the 0.5 patch, and then after the .5 patch they start tuning around M+

[hazy breach]

But it would be nice if sub wasnt among the last on St

But ig somebody has to be last

[tribal blade]

yeah i'm progging locken right now and usually on most wipes i don't even see myself on the meters

depends on where you wipe ofc, if you wipe right before cds come up you'll always be super low

[slate marlin]

neither do i, just nerf blood is life and buff some st stuff to compensate in raid

[strange chasm]

could be cope but i think sub gets some love on reset

[tribal blade]

i wouldn't hold my breath, blizz is more than willing to let underperforming specs stay at the bottom

and given sub's history with the devs

[vagrant sinew]

you mean in 13h? lol those patchnotes would have been out by now then

[slate marlin]

Pvp tuning week🤣

[hard plume]

is there an advanced sim input to look at all of the consumables against each other?

[twilit phoenix]

The week one sub tuning was super cringe for sure

[bleak night]

yeah it definitely sucks

surely buffs next reset though

[onyx parcel]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[lilac stag]

You know it’s going to BP buffs.

[lilac stag]

#tc-research

[stiff stirrup]

Thought there won’t be any tuning till mdi is over

[west tide]

really that sucks

i hope they nerf oab a lil!

[zenith prism]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[cursive vapor]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[haughty mural]

they will announce sub buffs for reset 🙂

[vale pine]

surely

[haughty mural]

I was keeping my sub dream alive this whole season..
tried 1 key yesterday evening with bleed build 4fun and instantly topped my sub overall

[gritty gorge]

I guess there should be some kind of tuning for M+ right before or right after time trials

[vale pine]

blizz does not tune m+

and they seemingly want players to play sin, as you saw in tuning for the 3rd season in a row now

[gritty gorge]

Yeah, kinda true, but its not fun playing ST bosses with it. Standing there and waiting for energy for like ages

[lusty narwhal]

i still remember when assa was really strong season 1 dragonflight with uncapped kingsbane and pi

they nerfed it 3 times in 3 weeks

[haughty mural]

We pulled trash into bosses as we played udk and sin mm

In that fun key

[lusty narwhal]

i don't really mind playing both sub and assa in a tier, but it really sucks to have to switch/recraft so many items

[haughty mural]

I didn’t even bother recrafting for that test key and dropped 5 ilvl in sin gear

But yea if you can’t funnel trash into
bosses, that st dmg is horrible

[lucid jackal]

U don't really need to recraft for sin

[haughty mural]

Also that

[spare garnet]

Whats that bleed build i keep hearing? I play trickster in M+ but like to try some new stuff. Cant really find anything on bleed sub build on google.

[haughty mural]

It’s an assa build

[keen dome]

Peep the pins in the Assa channel 🙂

[spare garnet]

Well i play sub and i check sub channel. Then i read about assa in sub channel 😂

Thought was a sub build i havent heard from my bad.

[vale pine]

people just comparing both specs

[haughty mural]

Don’t worry most players writing in
here ain’t sub mains

[bleak night]

thats because there are like a dozen sub mains total

i do enjoy a good dabble in sub though

make sectec bigger

[haughty mural]

Yes

Make 4pc activate like udk 4pc

[keen dome]

Yeees, bigger crits

[haughty mural]

The new builds for both outlaw and assa do like haste

Also a positive for them when it comes to gearing

(Not that assa would have cared about stats anyway)

[honest jewel]

Was playing assa s1, but bosses feelt so bad now I swapped sub. Have alot more fun. Just sad that voice in the back of my head. That its not optimal.

[worn ivy]

Im expecting subtlety buffs 2moro

[limpid sage]

as in instantly grant 8 stacks on Shadow Blades?

[worn ivy]

https://tenor.com/view/pointing-at-you-rick-hatchett-the-white-lotus-it's-you-i-pick-you-gif-3613469020267317733

Subtlety getting uncapped 2moro

[haughty mural]

Ye perhaps

[worn ivy]

• Darkbrew buffs

[limpid sage]

would have the lovely side effect of removing the degen optimization of using rupture only when flag is coming up

[haughty mural]

Ye

[misty dome]

question for you guys on keys, what % needs to be left on a boss for you to fire your cds again?

i feel like my cds keep coming up with the bosses at like 7%

doesn't matter if i have them on my opener of if they come back mid-fight, they always reset in single digits and it feels bad to use em

just like they always reset at like 1% on raid bosses and i don't get to the second sec tec

[misty dome]

wat?

[remote sluice]

this doesnt give hope of tuning happening soon

[bronze turret]

Its the hope that kills you. After having been -in the game- for so many years, you should know that they rarely simply buff sub

[stiff oriole]

Is there anyone available that can review my logs? Did absolute ass cheeks damage & parses last night. ( New to dub). I think my flag usage was dog shit

[misty dome]

they rarely buff rogues

@stiff oriole i think people usually start a thread with the log link, i would take a look but i'm about to turn in

i'd also say you can look up wowanalyzer for a starting point, it's very basic info like "did you use enough of <x> cd"

[bronze turret]

Ass rogue gets buffs every other week

[misty dome]

i think rogue needs a complete rework, especially with how fickle stealth is and how they've made vanish a dps cd instead of utility

i say this as a rogue main since classic too

@bronze turret i guess it's not fair for me to say rogue in general since i haven't been paying as much attention THIS season, but historically rogues never get any tweaks

that's why there's that meme of "best rogue patch notes ever" on every patch note because there were never any notes about rogues at all

[bronze turret]

Most mentions of sub feels like nerfs

[misty dome]

i know it just moves the issue from one utility to another, but i'd prefer if we got our stealth bonuses for shadow stepping instead of stealth, even if the tank tries to accomodate us and lets us restealth there's so much crap that holds us in combat anyways

[worn ivy]

There is always hope..

[misty dome]

and it feels terrible to use vanish for dps then to get targetted for an ability like the cujo leap that i could have negated

[hazy breach]

Vanish has been a dps cd since the start

[misty dome]

not to mention the fact that our dps is backloaded into our flag/dance windows and so many bosses spam abilities that force melee out so there's a good chance we can't even get to, much less use, the second sec tec

[hazy breach]

And also for sub its practically irrelevant, you can use it defensively if you want

[misty dome]

not to the extent that it is now

vanish was more useful in vanilla as a threat reset than for a second ambush

[hazy breach]

Youre right its been a way bigger dps cd in the past

[misty dome]

it's not as big NOW as during legion, sure

i generally do use it defensively now in m+

[hazy breach]

Idk the notion that vanish wasnt a dps cd in the past is just made up

[worn ivy]

Bring back shuriken combo 🫡

[misty dome]

i didn't say that but i can see how it could be implied in what i did say, so i won't argue that point

i mean, let's be clear, i don't HATE rogue... i've been playing one as my main for 20 years now (fuck i'm old)

[hollow spear]

training your rotation on a dummy is actually cursed without shammy buff

[misty dome]

just feels like there's problems that didn't age well with what the game has become

[bronze turret]

Thats the entire game

[misty dome]

a fair point

i mean monk has had some of the same bugs since monk was introduced

so maybe i'm just being an old man yelling at clouds

[hollow spear]

I mean, Rogue gameplay in classic is god awful

So we've come a long way from there

[iron obsidian]

do i wanna start investing in more crit when i hit the mastery DR

[hollow spear]

Do what the sim tells you

[iron obsidian]

fair enough

i was just wondering if theres a certain point, kinda like frost mage with the 33.6% crit

[tepid trellis]

nope there is not

[lilac stag]

I mean most of your “sub mains” in here are rogue mains who will play sub when they don’t feel they are impacting whatever prog they are doing. Going to vary by content goals and what you actually find enjoyable.

[hollow spear]

doesn't the sim on frost mage also account for that

[hazy breach]

It certainly does

[hollow spear]

I always wonder about this type of question

The sim should know about DR

so if it tells you to continue investing in a stat, it should make sense

[misty dome]

i miss raiding for CE but being in a more casual guild has been kinda nice in that i can play whatever's fun

and the 3 rogue specs are close enough for what we're doing

(to each other)

i did sin last season, doing sub this season

[vestal escarp]

if im not mistaken last time sub has got standalone buffs during seasons/tiers was sanctum?

[misty dome]

i dunno if i'll do outlaw again next season, i don't need carpal tunnel

[hazy breach]

Assuming you dont count the BP/plague buffs ye

[vestal escarp]

troll tuning

doesnt count

[lilac stag]

do we get any other type of tuning besides troll buffs and bug fix nerfs?

[hollow spear]

I feel like that depends heavily on the type of CE guild you are in

the better the rank you're going for, the more restrictive it gets

[lilac stag]

We’re expected to know what’s best for each encounter for our class (ability to play and profile)

[hollow spear]

but there's certainly guilds who achieve CE who also don't care about the spec you are playing

[lilac stag]

and we’re late tier CE

[hollow spear]

as long as you are doing well on it

[lilac stag]

everyone exp will vary. I don’t think most guilds have competition for the rogue spot either

so it’s a bit easier to play whatever if one is “behind”

[hollow spear]

They usually nerf bosses multiple times and we have the stacking damage buff coming in

you could probably bring 5 aug evokers and clear mythic at the end of the tier

[lilac stag]

sure on a roster of 25 carrying 3 warriors, one of which is a prot, you won’t convince me there’s not more competition for a melee spot between those 2 dps warriors

[tepid trellis]

imagine your RL even questioning you

[lilac stag]

so if fury is all of the sudden blasting on a boss, they swap

[lilac stag]

Yours just assumes you’re playing LA

1st night of Rik prog ended up on all three specs trying to sort out how to cover our tunnel vision range’s lack of off boss add dmg. The challenges of late tier CE.

though since we’re pushing a bit faster, recruiting has been a bit better

[tepid trellis]

he knows im too much ofa tryhard to troll

[lilac stag]

perfect

I’m the one that just asks what do you want me to cover or what mechanic to do and adjust if needed.

[tepid trellis]

i say that while i did however play sub on Kurog grimtotem

[lilac stag]

I’d like to get to a reclear point where I can blast on whatever I find fun.

but we usually end up in extending prison

[vale pine]

no parry for the entire raid is still a good argument for sub on any boss tho ^^

[keen dome]

Our raid buff!

[lilac stag]

It inflates the egos of the other melee too much.

[tribal blade]

after a lot of bricked keys learning how to play as a team with my new push group we finally timed a 15 today

we're scaling

[lilac stag]

this is the first season in a while for keys we have a fairly consistent group. No shaman so sub is ok, but annoying also. Played it most of the season so far. We’ll start to slowly push to 3k and right now we time keys faster with me running assa.

[vale pine]

nicuuu

congrats

[mint swift]

Good job!!!!!!!

[tribal blade]

ty!

[mint swift]

I've only just started my 13s :(

Full pugging atm

[tribal blade]

damn no skyfury sub is rough

[lilac stag]

It is just not fun

[tribal blade]

you got it! just keep going

sin is really fun

the bleed build fucks hard

[mint swift]

I'm not even on sin this season XD

[lilac stag]

yep. Blindside offsets the fuck me ST pain mentally

[tribal blade]

i pugged a 14 floodgate today and beat the other 2 dps by around 1 mil overall each

[mint swift]

Pog
Show :O

I assume you guys are still trickster gaming

[tribal blade]

i cleared details /cry

[lilac stag]

The SD booms are nice

[mint swift]

Tbh going from rogue to any other class shows how much rogue got fucked on Hero trees imo

[tribal blade]

i agree having blindside feels fucking amazing

[mint swift]

Like they have grown on me a tiny bit but still

[tribal blade]

DS needs a compete overhaul

[mint swift]

Multiple blindside procs in a few sec

[lilac stag]

also having PI on every DM makes ST not awful.

[tribal blade]

will DS get a complete overhaul? never in a million years

[mint swift]

Like i had a run the other day on workshop
the top 3 things on my dps meter were from my bear in my hero tree

And the bear isn't even the entire part of the hero tree (but the dps makes it so it is kek)

I'd show detials but like
I did 8 delves to get a shot at sus drink

[lilac stag]

I do really fear we’re getting the same shit BP buff and “forced” into krangled DS Sub shitshow

[mint swift]

Yea

[lilac stag]

no one playing DS at all not good

[mint swift]

Cause it's very clear people DO NOT like DS (at least from what ive seen

Like rota wise

But i could be wrong

[lilac stag]

and they’re not smart enough to know why

[vale pine]

i rly like drink

[mint swift]

I assume it's good on sub too

Cause big dick mast

[tribal blade]

it's actually neutral to my pacemaker on sub

i guess because i have a lot of mast already

[mint swift]

I find it funny that im using improvised pacemaker and energy drink

like
They sound like they would kill you

flavour wise

[tribal blade]

and for sin it's +0.2% in dslice, but i'm just using pacemaker because it feels better to play sin with more crit

[mint swift]

I mean an "IMPROVISED" pacemaker would kill you

But mix in a, probably lead filled, energy drinik

[mint swift]

I'm just running champ drink as it sims higher than any other dungeon drop

Minus pacemaker which i got on mythic

[tribal blade]

oh you're using double passive trinks?

nice nice

[mint swift]

I mean

Rn BM hunter in M+ uses noCD

So

It feels right

Well technically we have bestial wrath
But
We have so much CDR you sometimes use a BW while your previous BW is still up

[keen dome]

Hell yeah!

[tribal blade]

OH bm gotcha

[lilac stag]

What’s interesting to me, and it could just be our key levels. The healer dps in downtime is way more triggering than the assa ST dps. The most fun I’ve had on sub this tier (without skyfury) was the reduced cd affix.

[tribal blade]

i have HoC so doing the cdr affix felt HORRENDOUS

wasn't a fan

[lilac stag]

I have signet, HoC and PvP. PvP was amazing there.

[jade urchin]

it was even worse when we were still wearing transmitter

at least it felt even worse

[lilac stag]

pvp trinket

everything was perfect

[jade urchin]

i got HoC week 1 so i skipped the pvp trinket phase

[median nacelle]

im hoc-less 🙃

[lilac stag]

my vault has been a little more assa friendly so just went with it.

[jade urchin]

mine wants me to reroll outlaw every single week

[lilac stag]

it’s your name

[jade urchin]

💀

[waxen spire]

guys

[tame flint]

our "AOE" rotation is concidered 3 or more or 4 or more targets?

is our*

[jade urchin]

depends on which aoe rotation you mean

with or without black powder?

[tame flint]

lets go with

[jade urchin]

black powder is 7+ targets if u play trickster which u should

shuriken storm ist 3+ targets if nimble is up

[tame flint]

ah, ok

[jade urchin]

but u can also eviscerate 7+ targets if u need prio damage

[tribal blade]

some pulls you're trolling if you press BP

[jade urchin]

most pulls honestly

[lilac stag]

You should be pressing CT.

[tribal blade]

depends on the dungeon, but the dungeon's sub's good in you're not actually pressing BP that much anyways

[tribal blade]

t r u e

[lilac stag]

workshop and top have very few BP scenarios

until it’s buffed another 35%

[jade urchin]

even then in top theres really few times where the pulls where u could is stacked up

[tribal blade]

i still need to try workshop and ToP as bleed sin

i wanna see if they're viable there

or if the lack of ST becomes a hinderance

[jade urchin]

im literally queueing for exactly that right now

lmao

[tribal blade]

nice nice

let me know how it goes

[wild vine]

ToP definitely is fine

[jade urchin]

in a top14 rn, will confirm or deny

[mint swift]

Yea

It's so much fun

Rn the build is not a normal BM build

You literally cycle through your BW as fast as possible to summon more bears

Btw Graham

Rate the fit

[golden totem]

Wdym you don't press BP last room of rookery

[tribal blade]

PADDING

WE GOT A PADDER OVER HERE

[distant bison]

man i hate goin afk at the end of the packs... wish our 2 set bonus had something like the less the targets hp% the less you can lose tier stacks. like >20% you cant lose stacks

[golden totem]

Those smallies needs to die ASAP

[tribal blade]

nice business casual dress

[tribal blade]

reported to the higher authorities

[mint swift]

Treanchoat

Sadlyt, the pants i need come from a korthia farm

I origanlly was gonna rock with some bombshells

Like this

But i love my rats too much

[fallow nimbus]

The faster the small adds die the faster the others go st and the big mob dies faster

[tribal blade]

wtf how are those crabs that big

[mint swift]

I get that alot

I mean

Uhh

hunter pov, pets are bigger for you

[tribal blade]

oh i had no idea lol

[mint swift]

Gimmie a sec

[limpid sage]

cute dog

[mint swift]

It's SO apparent with myrats its not even funny

[tribal blade]

last time i played a hunter was like 2005

[mint swift]

Rats to me

Rats to everyone else

It's comical XD

Like i had no idea until the guild was posing for the AoTC picture

(We take one whenever we kill the final boss)

[keen dome]

TINY

That rules

Makes it even funnier that you can have them as pets

who will win: gallywix in a giant mecha or two tiny ratties

[tribal blade]

that must be infuriating in pvp

[mint swift]

Even better when im topping the DPS aswell

[tribal blade]

to fight a hunter who's siccing tiny rats on you

[mint swift]

Cause those two lil things are outdpsing you

Haha

[mint swift]

Also tooting my horn for a sec

The rats were chompin

[mint swift]

I have lil jokes like i check with the mage if their food is safe for rats

[jade urchin]

its fine if u have 1 class that does good ST, else timer gets fucked on bosses

[tribal blade]

at least a bunch of the fights in ToP have adds

which helps a lot with sin's energy budget

actually every fight in ToP has at least 1 other target at some point in the fight

[hazy breach]

if you can somehow get your group to not instantly kill all the adds on the non-gorechop boss

Youll be doing very high damage

Idk what hes called, but the green spooky add one

[tribal blade]

kultharok?

i think

[jade urchin]

ye scent of blood popping for sure

[hazy breach]

Crimson popping, scent poppin, infinite energy poppin

[jade urchin]

it felt really good until we had 3 aoe specs and low ST

[tribal blade]

yah sounds good to me

[jade urchin]

which is death sentence in top

[tribal blade]

i think the 1 dungeon left where i need to play sub is probably workshop

and maybe rookery

[jade urchin]

sin u mean i assume

[tribal blade]

just because sub is good on last boss

[jade urchin]

oh nvmnd misread

[tribal blade]

seems like rookery comes down to last boss

[jade urchin]

idk i think sub overrated in rookery last boss

cause after first shield ure wet noodle til 3rd shield usually

[tribal blade]

yeah that's the issue

but if your comp understands and can get you to the burns

[jade urchin]

imagine that boss with dust tho

[tribal blade]

you do fat boss dam

[lilac stag]

Just don’t run with a shaman and life choices get way easier in keys.

[hazy breach]

Just make sure you dont sectech on first boss while he is in the middle

[lilac stag]

@hazy breach I used your discussion yesterday to get PI every DM last night.

our hunter was sad

[tribal blade]

wait a second don't tell me the clones don't hit

[hazy breach]

[tribal blade]

jesus

christ

i gve up

[lilac stag]

We won’t tell you

[hazy breach]

https://tenor.com/view/jose-mourinho-sweet-trouble-gif-26762341

[lilac stag]

I love this spec but it drives me up a fucking wall mentally

[tribal blade]

WELL that made doing the 1st boss way more complicated

and also explains why sometimes i was doing sus damage on it and couldn't figure out why

[lilac stag]

when all else fails. Blame Sectech

[haughty mural]

You are right, I’ll stop yapping

[lilac stag]

nah. You’re good.

[jade urchin]

nah that explains so much

[golden totem]

That actually explains a lot

[golden totem]

Krkrkr

[tulip gorge]

wait the first boss doesn't get damaged by sec tech?

[lilac stag]

Not when in the middle

[vale pine]

which is stupid

[tribal blade]

sectec rework when

[bronze turret]

Sectech is stupid

[vale pine]

[tender dune]

how much of an increase is 2 and 4 set?

[jade urchin]

are there any other known bosses rn where it doesnt hit btw?

[hazy breach]

Dont think so

It doesnt cleave on carnage while theyre clashing

[jade urchin]

but nimble still cleaves if u stand between them right?

[hazy breach]

and a bunch of other things where its kinda hard to guage how long range it has, but none that i know of where it just misses

[jade urchin]

aight good to know tyvm

[jaunty heath]

One of the things I thought of while doing rik, does it follow the target?

When I pull CDs at 14 sometimes I secret tech right before Tanks move him

[hazy breach]

Yes

It follow the target

[jaunty heath]

Like they are moving him in the 1.3 sec window

Okay good

I thought I’m griefing myself sometimes

[twilit phoenix]

week 1 I didn't know about the rook boss thing in my first few runs

sending my juiced CB'ed second sectech

and just hearing a fart sound

[lilac stag]

Silly players assuming their abilities actually work. SMH my head.

[twilit phoenix]

killing spree is super troll on that fight too

i think sin is the only one that doesn't have any buggy interactions

although I'm not 100% sure that toxic bomb hits when he's in the middle

[slate marlin]

Thats a very minor dps loss compared to cb st not hitting tho

Ans sin doesnt have boss dmg anyway, no one expects you to

[lilac stag]

assa boss dmg is not subs, but with the bleed build it’s not exactly tank dmg levels either

[median nacelle]

r u talking about the first boss in rook when hes in the middle?

[lilac stag]

Scroll up a bit. That’s the entirety of the conversation.

[zenith prism]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[azure notch]

does the ilvl on offhand weapon matter?

[lilac stag]

not much

Don’t craft one if that’s what you’re wondering

[proper latch]

Backstab as the first builder worth even with Rotten?

[lilac stag]

yes

you're never using storm as first builder

[proper latch]

SS hits hard with Rotten though

[lilac stag]

which SS?

if you're storming first builder, congratulations you just used both charges of The Rotten in one ability press.

[proper latch]

Shadow Strike

I'm aware of the bug, ty

[lilac stag]

you're welcome

[jaunty umbra]

nice

[void verge]

how come fuu's sub guide has glowtorc for bis neck rather than a crafted vers/mastery one?

[supple verge]

actually maybe its this

off to raidbots

[ember hound]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[wicked urchin]

can't say im super stoked on myth shoulders but

better than a socket

[calm kraken]

should i pick mythic shoulders or a mythic haste/mas dagger (currently have a 675 crafted mainhand and a heroic offhand)

[lilac stag]

you should sim yourself with them at max upgrades

[steel sierra]

NO FUCKING SHOT I get 5 trinkets in all my Myth slots. 3 weeks of tokens, I hate this game

[twilit phoenix]

you're passing on a myth track pacemaker?

[potent summit]

I kinda feel like we need another balance patch. Its only DK, Owl, Mage/Sham/Hunter in higher keys. If you are yellow you just cant push without waiting for like 1515 hrs not getting invites 😄

[steel sierra]

all downgrades

[twilit phoenix]

what are your trinkets?

[steel sierra]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/59EmwVRGmtTxmGjVz8ZyfL

[twilit phoenix]

try simming pacemaker for sin, it's a pretty strong trinket for them

[bleak night]

you didnt sim upgraded pacemaker

im sure 678 pacemaker beats 665 sussy drink

[twilit phoenix]

not for sub actually

it's like within margin of error

[bleak night]

at 662 its already only .3% behind

[twilit phoenix]

but for sin I'd imagine its better

[twilit phoenix]

weirdge, I guess our gear is just a bit diff

myth pace for me was like only .1 ahead

[prime glen]

is flickering glowtorc myth really bis for the neck? i see a ton of rogues leading with amulet of craftmanship

wondering if that vers crit is better than the vers mastery even with those 3 ilvl diffs

[twilit phoenix]

https://tenor.com/view/sim-simyoself-gif-20048910

[stoic spire]

Assuming one will never get myth house of cards is there any alternative or the hero track one beats any m+ trinket on myth track?

[prime glen]

if i were to aim for true BiS and wait on the sims until full items, im curious if the crafted is better

[twilit phoenix]

there is no "true bis"

there's like 10-20 profiles that are all within like .1% of each other

the one on wowhead is just one of those profiles

[bleak night]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8eF18w283bSRovEE4R8tAj

[short radish]

Why are you waiting on sims

[prime glen]

yeah but wondering if the old guides were off on their sims

[short radish]

Why not sim now

[bleak night]

because i dont have all the expansions

and it kind of sucks playing without them all

[twilit phoenix]

all the guides are fully updated

Fuu will tell you himself

[potent summit]

tbh you get myth hoc with next patch

[prime glen]

planned pve pushes for a few weeks from now but dont want to be inefficient with the m+ dungeons

[twilit phoenix]

that there's a bunch of bis profiles

there's no perfect bis gear setup

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/hang-first-time-smiles-gif-14991372

m+ balance.....

[twilit phoenix]

just a bunch of diff combos that are negligebly close to one another

[stoic spire]

Yeah... the dinars- forgot about that 😅

[potent summit]

ya getting kinda brick walled on cinder and prio. Need those 2 on 14. The rest you get inved. But those 2 keys not a chance

[lilac stag]

play assa

[prime glen]

yeah, just wondering if the math is diff. and it seems like it is slightly but it could be just that they arent fully 678 yet. fk it, guess i'll just stick with whatever is as close to possible

[potent summit]

i dont get invs as assa aswell

[prime glen]

haha true, ive seen those assa meters

thx yall

[potent summit]

must be cause i dont have a BR or BL or anything good for anyone 😄

[lilac stag]

or there are 32142345 other dps applying

and youre not meta

[potent summit]

that might be the point

so guess my season is over at 3150

was a good ride

[lilac stag]

either have a group to run with, or reroll if you actually want to push without pushback

[prime glen]

haha

[lilac stag]

welcome to m+ kekw

[potent summit]

good game

[lilac stag]

rerolling pretty simple

its fine, the 1% always going to have to do dumb shit

or hof or whatever

[prime glen]

what do you think is considered the patchwerk of undermine

[potent summit]

if a game wants to make me reroll cause otherwise there is no chance i might be better of deinstall 😄

well i mean i get a lot free time now until i get a 14 of those keys myself

[lilac stag]

you can still run keys, just realize you're narrowed it down to 2 specific keys at a specific level. find a push group if it matters that much

lfg and pushing is just mindboggling to me

[short radish]

Sprocket

[potent summit]

good arguments but not good arguments for a game. Just my point of view i guess

[lucid jackal]

WHat?

[lilac stag]

let me go pug mythic mugzee

kekw

[twilit phoenix]

guy cooking up a sensible take as we speak

[lilac stag]

this game sucks

even more impressive we found someone that gonna make me and guy have a rather aligned take

[lucid jackal]

Yeah I mean

Ur pushing the end of content that pugs usually do, and you are playing something that is """off meta"""

The only thing thats the games fault is "Why isn't rogue the best spec in the game"

[potent summit]

I just said in my point of view its shit

i didnt say you have to follow that way of thinking

[alpine wraith]

wow is not even super min maxed like other games

[lucid jackal]

But whats the solution tho

[alpine wraith]

you will see people with diff comps everywhere

[bleak night]

in my point of view the jedi are evil

[lilac stag]

wants solo play to minmax pushing content

[lucid jackal]

There will always be a "god meta comp"

[lilac stag]

DELVES!

[clever delta]

its yover guys, they nerfing adds hp on bandit

join me at ass side

[bleak night]

bombs still need to die

[lilac stag]

BP buffs?

[potent summit]

ya and i think thats stupid. Just saying. Do you work for blizz or why are you so offended by my point of view? 😛

[lucid jackal]

What's stupid

[potent summit]

you didnt design this

[prime glen]

thx

[lucid jackal]

TGhe fact that rogue isn't in god comp?

I dont understand what ur issue even is

[lilac stag]

I CANT GET A GROUP FOR TWO KEYS THAT NEED AOE

[twilit phoenix]

if rogue is in god comp, then wow is super cool and awesome

[bleak night]

how is it blizzards fault that the community latches onto whatever comp the highest end keys are playing when it doesnt matter in keys they do

[twilit phoenix]

if rogue isn't in god comp wow sucks and is super gay

[short radish]

Every class should be exactly equal in damage and have 0 variance

[bleak night]

based

[lilac stag]

spend 2 days. get reroll to 660 and play god comp

[potent summit]

im only plaing rogue so kinda. But i dont need it to be god. Just good enough that its not this hard out of meta. BR/BL or something important is just missing. Rogues Dmg Profile is fine

[twilit phoenix]

restless crew when?

[lucid jackal]

idt rogue is "That hard out of meta" tho

[bleak night]

rogue battle rez; we poke someone with a stick until they get up

[lilac stag]

new outlaw ability, battle-res spree

[rare pumice]

rogue lust, we poke everyone in the butt so they get angry

[lilac stag]

you res party members and they randomly res along a KS path. GL!

[potent summit]

Cause a damn Dog that just howls aka Hunter Pet is better take 😄

[lilac stag]

leave dogs out of this

[potent summit]

you know im gonna call it off. You are right and im wrong.

[lilac stag]

glad we came to a mutal understanding and agreement!

[rare pumice]

fear his wrath

[lilac stag]

on to the next matter, where our BP buff?

[potent summit]

Muste be nice to live like this 😄

[lilac stag]

100% is nice understanding the way the game and player base handles top end content. Makes it easier to sleep at night

[potent summit]

more like i chew everything people catering me and dont argue at one point. But like i said you are right everything is fine

[lilac stag]

I'm down to listen to actual solutions to this issue

vers just complaining

[twilit phoenix]

vers/mast complaining*

[potent summit]

The thing i dont get paid for that. Blizz does. End of the arguement. If you as a costumer dont like things. You can complain

[bleak night]

[lilac stag]

haste gets no voice here

[potent summit]

Thats how things work

[bleak night]

blizzard going to show up tomorrow and say you cant invite uhdk to keys anymore

and save us

[lilac stag]

and that's just gonna get you griefed in here. discussion is encouraged. random ass complaint department isnt this discord

[potent summit]

😄

true just wanted to see your point of view. And got it. So its fine

[lilac stag]

complaining works so well for the pvp player base

[lucid jackal]

Me when somebody disagrees with me; "This must be George Soros paying them off"

https://tenor.com/view/rothschild-women-ignore-texts-vince-mcmahon-gif-16818924069371790932

[lilac stag]

my wow bank account is fat

though sucks that I lost the friends and family free lifetime sub

[shut ridge]

our tank for mythic house of cards… it’s never been more joever

[crystal bone]

bubbles fan right here

[alpine wraith]

wait you dont skip him

[delicate wind]

another vault another token

i have yet to get a single useful mythic item in my cvault 3 weeks in a row. over it

[crystal bone]

as sub i long for the bubbles flag window

[shut ridge]

begone, foul demon

[crystal bone]

we've tried many times

bubbles refuses to be skipped

[bleak night]

bubbles will have his due

[lilac stag]

no skippy the bubbgles

[shut ridge]

one of our tanks sometimes tanks him on the bridge with the other mobs just behind him for “fun”

https://tenor.com/view/cat-despair-meme-atone-gif-18083281511005463831

tank mains are not human beings

[wild hornet]

what was the combat rezz item called

[hazy breach]

Jumper cables

[strange chasm]

How is the mugzee nerfs

[hazy breach]

Not as large as the bandit ones imo

But healing is the absolute hardest part of the fight, if things do less damage its more reasonable to miss a soak n stuff too

Unironically the visual updates are gonna save more wipes than the reduced health on bandit

[strange chasm]

We killed bandit this week so that's pog

Mugzee still will be 5 heal for sure though?

[hazy breach]

Yeah definitely should be

[lucid jackal]

Maybe not with that many nerfs

U still have to hold damage for p2

So maybe not

[hazy breach]

Idk maybe if you know you have really good healers

[lucid jackal]

ud have to redraft a strat

[hazy breach]

But like guy said you hold dps anyway at one point so its kinda

[lucid jackal]

makes the enrage not a factor

If u 4 heal

[hazy breach]

Ye but surely prog consistency goes way down

[zenith thorn]

Not everyone no lifes this game to where you have to also now have another schedule on top of raiding to push keys that's why a lot of people use lfg, also if you don't mythic raid it's a lot harder to meet people

[alpine wraith]

you will waste less time getting a group than trying to pug high keys usually

unless you reroll

or just dont push like most of us

[zenith thorn]

Yes but now i have to commit on 4 people and play around their schedules

And yeah ur right

[alpine wraith]

well your schedule can be when you have time be declined for 3 hours

and maybe do 1 key and deplete on the second pull

[zenith thorn]

The solution is reroll or dont play the hame which i doubt blizzard likes the latter

[alpine wraith]

or i guess if you are busier even 2 hours or so

sadly dungeon keys do not respect time

[zenith thorn]

But I wont reroll cause I only en joy rogue

And even if u find a group there's a chance they want u to play meta

I think blizzard needs to overhaul the whole system and let solo q players be solo q players which is the mayority

[alpine wraith]

yea rogue this season is just skip if you want to push not that there wont be rogues mind you

lots of good players around

just you wont get invited

[zenith thorn]

I had hope when james said he would try assa but he's full locked in on dk

So there goes rogue hope

[lilac stag]

There are literally discord setup for m+ grouping, as well as websites like raider.io.

If you want to push content, at some point you’re going to outgrow lfg.

If pushing is your goal, you know what you signed up for.

Getting CE in a 6 hour a week guild is my goal. I know what I’m in for.

[zenith thorn]

Yeah and that's a horrible system there should be a better in game system

[twilit phoenix]

CE in a 1 raid night guild

but you raid for 16 hours that one day

[lilac stag]

How are you fixing the horrible system

[zenith thorn]

Laugh all you want but in league i can climb all the way to challenger solo

[twilit phoenix]

what could be better than LFG?

[zenith thorn]

By having a solo q system?

[lilac stag]

The game is designed around meeting people. At some point you could have friended those in your 12-13 range

[twilit phoenix]

that sounds horrible

[fallow nimbus]

3 raidnights with the occasional 4th full day raid

[twilit phoenix]

shitters can just queue

[lilac stag]

Solo Q isn’t for pushing

[twilit phoenix]

solo q is literally random dungeon finder

[zenith thorn]

Restructure the key system and still have your own key ig you want to push with people you want

[twilit phoenix]

you want those for your 16 keys?

[hazy breach]

I mean it could be fine, but you could also just end up with people leaving as soon as the key starts because youre playing the wrong spec

unless you tie MMR to it, but then its not really about key levels anymore

So it doesnt make sense in the same way that it does for pvp games

[keen dome]

I think solo queue only works up to weekly levels.

Would only work, that is

[lilac stag]

m+ hot takes hitting sub chan hard this morning.

[zenith thorn]

Yes

[hazy breach]

Not to mention the queue times would likely still be very long for dps

[lilac stag]

[zenith thorn]

If its literally the same why would it hurthaving it ur contradicting urself

[lilac stag]

random dungeon finder for the 1% of players trying to push is going to work great.

[twilit phoenix]

the architecture of the system is the same, but the stakes/context is different

[keen dome]

Solo Q for doing 10's (or even 12's) would be fine as an alternative but when we have a season like this, I don't think we need it. It's fine for weekly stuff, never takes too long. It wouldn't ever work for push keys above 12. Just simply not viable with how M+ fundamentally works.

[twilit phoenix]

i'm fine with getting grouped with randos for my timewalkers

[lilac stag]

you may actually have a more toxic environment than PvP

[twilit phoenix]

but not for meaningful content I want to curate my team for

[zenith thorn]

You have a rating right, if ur rating doesn't meet the requirements then u cant queue

[keen dome]

Although even with just weekly keys, you'd need to design the affixes differently.

[lilac stag]

or you purchase your rating

[hazy breach]

What happens if you dont time the key? Do you lose rating?

[lilac stag]

And have fun with them

[zenith thorn]

Im not a game designer but im sure there's elegant solutions

[twilit phoenix]

[lilac stag]

if there was it would be in the game

[zenith thorn]

So you're saying the game is perfect right

[lilac stag]

everything already exists for what you want

[hazy breach]

No

[zenith thorn]

Nothing else will be added in the future

Cause it would be in it

[lilac stag]

No I’m saying your solution is shit

[keen dome]

I think for it to really work you'd have to redesign some fundamental aspects of the game (Every tank needs a heroism. Every healer a Brez. Every class a baked in kick).

[zenith thorn]

Ur solution is use a 3rd party website lmfao

[hazy breach]

surely theres a middle ground between "the current situation isnt great" and "your suggestion isnt great" that isnt "Everything is perfect"

[zenith thorn]

It's shit too

[lilac stag]

What are you doing right now?

Have you read a guide?

[zenith thorn]

Imagine if i had to use a 3rd party website to play valorant or other competitive games

[lucid jackal]

Didn't soloq kill pvp

[lilac stag]

What are those? In game?

[lucid jackal]

Why would adding soloq to dungeons be the correct thing to do

[keen dome]

It made it a lot more accessible to people, though. I don't think it's quite comparable to how it would impact M+.

[zenith thorn]

You are not force to be good at ur class to play the game

[hazy breach]

Soloque is still reasonably popular, rated 3s tanked though

[zenith thorn]

Weak argument

[twilit phoenix]

yeah all the solo queue pvpers love their 1hr queue times

[keen dome]

But I think it matters in what the goal of the soloQ for M+ is. Is it for just weeklies? is it the whole spectrum? is it just for high keys?

[lilac stag]

You’re literally in class discord that isn’t part of the game and you’re bullshitting me if you haven’t used any outside of game resources

Don’t be a tool

[keen dome]

Because I don't believe you can have it be for everything. The game is too different at high levels to have a one-size system.

[zenith thorn]

Doesnt have to be strictly solo q but something that kills the middleman having a system where you can also have ur key to push with people youd like if you want to

[lilac stag]

Let me go find a guild in the in game guild recruitment.

[zenith thorn]

But have a better option than lfg

[keen dome]

But that's just LFG

[lilac stag]

I swear people are so anti-social they can’t ask for an add when a key goes well in the 12-13 range.

[bleak night]

[zenith thorn]

Mythic raiding is 20 man and it's like a second job there's a reason why its on decline

[lilac stag]

And wtf do you think key pushing is?

[bleak night]

good thing people join guilds for reasons other than mythic raiding

[zenith thorn]

And yes blizzard in game system should be better for recruitment

[keen dome]

I absolutely think a queue system could work for weekly (I.e, up to 10) but outside of that. Nope, nuh-hu. No chance it could function or work without being a hellscape.

[twilit phoenix]

SoloQ grouping me with brazilians

[keen dome]

I also think you could kill LFR and replace it with Normal, and have LFR become Follower raids where it's 1 player and 29 NPC's and reward the same as LFR but hey that's just my madness.

[twilit phoenix]

[zenith thorn]

Unless ur pushing cutting edge keys , not a job?

[lilac stag]

Key pushing for Zero is literally his job.

Calculate how much time you spent gearing and running keys

Only in m+

[hazy breach]

Is it on decline though

[zenith thorn]

People gear alts like nothing it doesn't really take that much time

[lilac stag]

bet it’s more than my 6 hours in mythic and the 2-3 hours I spend doing keys

[bleak night]

https://tenor.com/view/metal-gear-rising-metal-gear-rising-revengeance-senator-armstrong-revengeance-i-made-it-the-fuck-up-gif-25029602

[twilit phoenix]

it was revealed to me in a dream

[keen dome]

My personal experience with Mythic this tier is that the first two bosses are hella puggable and that's cool as heck.

[zenith thorn]

Proof that it's not