subtlety

[spark plover]

just watch and hf

[mint swift]

And wow

Imagine not knowing what details is

[honest void]

What about financial?

[mint swift]

Or parses

[honest void]

Wait till stake.com sponsors the RWF

[hollow spear]

Multiple millions of my own money

[spark plover]

or boost

[mint swift]

Just being some dad in an rp guild

Like imagine doing the raid once per tier or smth

Cinematically walking there and having this whole story to it

[keen dome]

Haha

[mint swift]

Instead of just going in and being dead focused all night

[honest void]

Imagine dragons though

[hollow spear]

I'd love to be able to do that

But I cannot

[keen dome]

I've got buddies who don't really touch content and just RP. They're living their best life in WoW

[mint swift]

Imagine dragging

No

I'll stop

[keen dome]

the only gear they care about is fashion.

[mint swift]

XACTLY

like

Omg must be a dream

[honest void]

Say it

[hollow spear]

I am too competitive for that

[honest void]

You know you must

[spark plover]

im diggin scrap since 10h, cant talk about that

[mint swift]

IMAGINE DRAGGING THESE NUTS ON YOUR FACE

sorry

aheam

[keen dome]

haha

[hollow spear]

are we sin chat yet?

[keen dome]

My current favourite pug development is people applying to the group saying "know all mechanics"

[mint swift]

For the mount

[keen dome]

WAY more of them this season for some reason

[mint swift]

"i have one in my contacts"

[keen dome]

And then you assign them a mechanic and they go "I don't know that one"

[mint swift]

"how else would i repair my car"

[hollow spear]

well, do they?

[keen dome]

no

[mint swift]

Yea sorry,

[vale pine]

whats good/bad and whats a problem will often come down to which class you ask

a good example is

[mint swift]

I just turn every single chat into general chat XD

[keen dome]

I had a DH join who said he knew all mechanics. I told him he was doing mines on Lockensprocket. And he went "I don't know how to do that"

[vale pine]

warrior got a 2nd charge on a cooldown was "the sky is falling"

[hollow spear]

as long as you don't start about bussy

[mint swift]

Hahahaha

I won't i won't

[vale pine]

meanwhile subtlety has multiple cdr components and multiple cooldowns with stacks

[mint swift]

Tbh im prolly gonan dip to farm cinderbrew a few times before i leave for uni

Got my ToP ring after like 24 runs or so

Hoping i get my neck in less than that

[honest void]

Tbf do you trust those mobile hooligans with a mine?

[mint swift]

You seen Dark ranger BM?
It. Is. Dead.

[keen dome]

Ye, 'cos netherwalk

I typically do rogue -> DH -> paladin

[vale pine]

deathstalker is ~8-10% behind in dungeon slice

[keen dome]

Although I've repeatedly had a paladin pop their immune randomly and then go "SOMEONE ELSE HAS TO DO IT"

[vale pine]

ye

[hollow spear]

you should hard assign a sub rogue on bombs at 1.30

[vale pine]

some hero talents are just bad

[keen dome]

haha

[hollow spear]

(if there's even bombs at 1.30)

[vale pine]

they could just buff it ^^

[keen dome]

good news: I assign myself

[mint swift]

Better yet

track a Frost DK when they have breath

then force them to do bombs

and make them do like the far ones

[hollow spear]

on our Rik kill

[keen dome]

I always do the 1st / 4th set of mines 'cos it's just easier to do it and make sure it's done.

[hollow spear]

I had to soak right before he phased

completely pissing away my 2nd flag window

[mint swift]

Genuinly whenver i get the chance to do a mechanic i do it

Because i wanna just have most people in the raid play what they wanan do

[keen dome]

Mines are whatever though. You know what's wiping pug groups on heroic?

DRILLS

[fathom gazelle]

to sim last boss ring do i need an expert sim mode? or how does the sim track party buff? cooz its simming low for me

[honest void]

11.1.5 patch having no tuning ATM is sending me

[mint swift]

Like in one-armed, most kills im doing every single poker chip myself

[hollow spear]

the bane of my existence

[mint swift]

Fuck you

Fuck you

[hollow spear]

drill right on the spot you're supposed to get knocked back from

[mint swift]

Just seeing a wall of drills where we need to go

[honest void]

But also they player housing stuff has got me looking the other way for now

[keen dome]

I did 9 pulls last night RLing it and we kept wiping to drill placement

I need to figure out a pug safe approach for it 'cos my current one ain't it

[hollow spear]

kick all ranged

easy

[mint swift]

Tbh

[keen dome]

haha

[honest void]

Are you saying that they didn't know....the drill?

[mint swift]

Just

don't get drills

?

Just say no

the boss can't attack you without consent

[hollow spear]

can't cloak those either

[keen dome]

I'm thinking we do 4 markers, one on each 'slice' of the room. Raid stacks on it. drill behind raid. move to skull for intermission knock.

[hollow spear]

can you evade the stun?

[mint swift]

I don't know if i can turlte then either

But ill have to test

[keen dome]

Just remove the chance for people to stand in narnia and hard force the raid to be in the proper place

[mint swift]

Turtle both feels like a worse Cloak and a better cloak

Mostly worse

But it does some things better i think?

[hollow spear]

we had one behind us and I tried to cloak at knockback

didn't work

[mint swift]

Like idk
Last boss of ToP, do you still get the add circle if you cloak

[honest void]

I got knocked back into a random ass drill placement on our kill pull

[keen dome]

If you precloak no, if you cloak with it you spawn it immediately

[honest void]

Never wanted to commit war crimes as much as then

[mint swift]

Ah ok

turtle just removes it completly

No circle and no add

Just bounces off lmao

So you only have 4 circles and 4 ads

I know this because i did 24 runs or so of the shitthole

:(

[keen dome]

haha yeah

[glass jasper]

I got ring first run 🙂

[hollow spear]

nerf rogue

[keen dome]

lmao that outlier balance druid

[mint swift]

But hey

It was well worth it

[mint swift]

Tbh it's just payback for me getting pacemaker first try

[glass jasper]

I also got HoC HC first vault, myth tier 2nd and sussy energydrink 3rd vault

This season is going well so far

[mint swift]

Nice

[vale pine]

lol

[mint swift]

Ive got 2 pieces of mythic tier and mythic bis bracers

Just need a gun now

[fathom gazelle]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5Aoc1bgjewf5ukk3K6EKif gally ring isnt simming bis for me , am i doing something wrong in the sim?

[hollow spear]

Sub is now 5th lowest on cauldron 😮

[midnight geyser]

Not rlly surprised

Hard to hold big cd’s for intermission and that’s when lust is sent

[mint swift]

Beyond based name btw vex

[midnight geyser]

Thank u

All they need to do is fucking make it like blade dance from dh

But no the refuse 😭

[mint swift]

Just checked 6 runs into cinderbrew

Or

make it so it doesn't effect youir movement

and idk

the idea is you move blindinly fast or smth

Cause idk, sounds cool for outlaw

[hollow spear]

most raids send lust on pull

[mint swift]

Also means you can still do your rota and aren't locked out of the gcd or whatever

Also
FR im actually going to farm cinder now
And uhh

[brisk raptor]

How’s sub doing vs assa with most recent buffs?

[mint swift]

Just happy igot my first 99 this season on heroic

:D

[midnight geyser]

My guild didn’t for mugzee one arm cauldron

[midnight geyser]

Grats

[keen dome]

Hell yeah, that rules

I really wanna try for a 99/100 this season on heroic, too

[mint swift]

Would have genuinly gotten 2 that night if i didn't get stunned on carnage (We had a lot of dps on dino so the entire raid went to monkey and we had some circle overlaps)

But i can 100% get a 99 on that fight with a suspiciously pi shaped pull

Funnily enough i think stix was the only non pi fight because of the no cooldown build

(Also still here because i forgot about the time it takes to form a group)

Anyway i don#'t wanna make this too oftopic
How does sub feel m+ wise rn

Not dmaage output

gameplay wise

[keen dome]

I really like it

It feels very good to play. Good cadence, strong ST

[mint swift]

Nice

[glass jasper]

Feels really good 90% of the time

[mint swift]

better than assa which was just
Huge AoE, horrid ST

Tbh i'd still somehow fuck it upo

It seems kinda difficult but i remember Eleem saying it's not that hard

If you just learn it

[keen dome]

You fall off in AoE sometimes, but in cleave bosses or pure ST bosses it feels great.

[glass jasper]

If you have tanks with bad dungeon route it feels awful

But i guess that goes for all classes, but feels even worse for sub

[mint swift]

Yea

Feels horrid for Bm too

Cuase bear shenanigans

[glass jasper]

Did you try MM after new DR changes?

Guildmate was happy with it

Not sure for m+ tho, but for raid atleast

[mint swift]

Eh idk

For me rn

MM is good for some low M+ stuff bnut idk if i'd actually enjoy it

[void ocean]

can we go back to that "not using nado with cds", does it mean we only nado in regular dances?

[glass jasper]

No idea, I just don't play it. It seems annoying

I have enough keybindings as it is

😄

[void ocean]

i liked nado gaming

i just wont use it on st, no matter what dps loss is

[hallow sigil]

I believe fuu said you nado outside of dance

Even in st but always outside of dance

I might be misremembering ofc but I'm fairly certain

[void ocean]

ok this is getting weirder

[hallow sigil]

Why

[hazy breach]

No, outside of symbols

Its for cdr, not burst

[fallen crescent]

What kind of rogue spec is that?

[void ocean]

so we basically use nado to override energy starvation

[fathom gazelle]

what is nado

[void ocean]

shuriken tornado

[fathom gazelle]

aha

[fathom gazelle]

if any expert can take a look at this later ❤️

[hollow spear]

Don't know what you want to hear. If it sims worse, it's just worse for you (right now).

[mint swift]

Ranged assa

[tidal scaffold]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fathom adder]

are you using a new m+ build with tornado for the cdr ? where do you take the point from?

[fair anchor]

I can never find the tc discussions unless it's linked, does rotation changes much without rotten ? We still use BP but we have to decide based on fw targets ?

[paper iron]

What is this

[random hare]

It’s the build we used to play in ptr

I think eleem cooked it in simc recently

[vale pine]

tl;dr the currently highest simming talent setup in dungeon slice

it is the best non the first dance setup

but loses out once you don't use tfd

[random hare]

St looks lower or?

[vale pine]

this is basically comparing it to the best rotten setup

[paper iron]

I dont feel playing nado again

[vale pine]

Diffrence - Rotten/brew tfd:
Single Target -0.8%
Three Targets +1.7%
Five Targets -0.2%
Eight Targets -0.8%
Dungeon Slice -1.2%

^ this has multiple setups

but thats comparing both with the first dance

the numbers i highlighted

[random hare]

Tfd build wins no matter what I guess yea?

[vale pine]

tfd sims lower

mostly because dungeon slice has no resets

so the benefits are hard to estimate

[random hare]

At all?

[vale pine]

so tfd "undersimms"

if you want to call it like this

but the bottom line is

if you don't play the first dance

[trail furnace]

Anyone know if Assassin is considered easier than Sub? Considering the switchover cause Sub buttons are a tad overwhelming and I’m getting old

[vale pine]

the above talent setup could be very good

[sly shore]

it is easier

it's the easiest rogue spec by far

[vale pine]

it is harder because you add tornado

[sly shore]

outlaw and sub have more complexity

[vale pine]

outlaws difficulty is mostly in how fast you need to make decisions

[random hare]

Sin is only mega hard to play very well in m+

[vale pine]

subtleties difficultly is in all the cdr mechanics and cooldown maangement

[random hare]

Otherwise it’s fairly simple in m+ on an average level

[vale pine]

min/maxing anything is "hard"

like

i am 100% sure people make multiple mistakes in every subtlety key they run

[crystal bone]

[vale pine]

perfect play is always tough

[random hare]

Literally the case for outlaw

[hazy breach]

Ye, im also kinda convinced theres some cooks to make a DB build better on ST too

Havent found it yet though, but im lookin

[vale pine]

^ as always

we might find some improvements

[random hare]

I think no tfd is abit cooked

[crystal bone]

its the 8+ target pulls that i tend to make mistakes on

[random hare]

Definitely necessary to play that

[hazy breach]

Ye you absolutely play tfd in keys

[crystal bone]

i think i do very well on every boss

[sly shore]

2 sod charges batchest

[vale pine]

tfd seems like its worth it ye

[random hare]

3 symbols is broken in motherlode 1st boss

17 stacks shadow technique into boom bam

4.63m end of fight in week 2

[crystal bone]

not sure about tfd in cinderbrew tho

[sly shore]

play assa

[tribal blade]

is there a problem with DB builds (at least in aoe) where you don't have enough symbols for dance cdr

[crystal bone]

every single tank i been with likes to chain pull the entire i'pa side

[sly shore]

that's not a problem

[random hare]

It’s good there still

[hazy breach]

Ye

[tribal blade]

i noticed that when i tried DB the last time

[crystal bone]

can u cook tfd with vanishes?

[random hare]

Cinderbrew u play sin and go to bee area, once boss is dead u tp and swap to sub

[random hare]

Sometimes

[hazy breach]

You get a couple of procs even without vanish cooking

[random hare]

Yea fake out of combat thing

[hazy breach]

First pull, after each boss, before last pack and before last boss are all guaranteed

[tribal blade]

that's enough TFD procs for it to be ok

[paper iron]

You get tfd during fight from Random vanishes also sometimes

[random hare]

Sin is way stronger until u get to the candle area

That’s where sub is necessary

[hazy breach]

Afaik it only happens on some specific mobs

[random hare]

U never get restealths and u have no dmg on totems as sin so its very bad

[hazy breach]

Or atleast i havent found it being consistent on anything else

[paper iron]

Its definitly not consistent

[crystal bone]

in tfd setup, do u still wait for the 2nd dance for the CB sectech? @hazy breach

[hazy breach]

The droplet in meadery and the void guys in rookery is where ive had it happen

[random hare]

Eleem

From what I noticed it doesn’t matter much

Idk what triggers it but it doesn’t always work

[hazy breach]

Sims say no, ideally use it last gcd of first dance and insta press new dance, but if that feels scary you can just delay

[random hare]

I think we could maybe find a toy

Target a specific toy that will allow us to vanish into tfd mid fight

[hollow spear]

last gcd of first dance seems a bit late, no?

[random hare]

I’ll try to find one

[hazy breach]

Maybe

[crystal bone]

hmm ok

[hazy breach]

Scout ahead

[spark plover]

you want something like that ?

[hollow spear]

because your clones will hit with lower dm stacks?

[spark plover]

there is a ring that give you vanish in wod

[paper iron]

Zero back at big cooking

[hazy breach]

Yes

[paper iron]

That is the zero i like

[hazy breach]

But more unseen blade procs earlier means more damage with literally everything else

[vale pine]

its all about trade offs

[random hare]

@paper iron this is why ur doing 15m instead of above 20m 1st pull cinderbrew

Read it well noob

Also sectech before u start the key u need to proc coup asap

[hollow spear]

maybe I am overestimating sectec's damage

[random hare]

Otherwise u won’t achieve that dps even in perfect rotation

[paper iron]

That s already what I do bozo

[random hare]

That’s impossible

Ur probably doing rotation mistakes then

[paper iron]

Maybe

I d be surprised if I do so in every first pull since Day 1

But maybe

[random hare]

Are u proccing 3 unseenblades before ur first sectech? I don’t think many people do that if anyone at all

On 1st pull

That is ur biggest dps gain ever

Because u will get shadow techniqued into 0 dps

If u don’t

[hollow spear]

so you try to go sectec straight into coup or what

[paper iron]

You mean proccing your 2 first free unseen blade before pressing CD?

[random hare]

You need to proc 3 unseen blades before ur first symbols of death on that pull

So ur priority is on that rather than ruptures

[crystal bone]

this is peak min max cooking

[random hare]

Ruptures won’t move ur dps on that pull but u may still press them on muscle guys

For ethical dps

[muted agate]

kid named finger

[crystal bone]

ethical dps would be to evis the muscles and not bp

[fathom adder]

why do you need to procc 3 unseen?

[random hare]

So, ambush rupture, vanish ambush and backstab anything into cds (over cap cp np)

[paper iron]

So u use cdg earlier and stack the next one faster

[hollow spear]

still need to convince my brain to press bp

my fingers love evis

[random hare]

U can it doesn’t matter I think the pull is being grouped up

[crystal bone]

evis is more ethical its ok

[random hare]

Ur better off rupturing to not get weird aggro

[crystal bone]

in mecha i only bp the first pull

in rookery i dont think i ever bp

same in top

[random hare]

With this you will always do minimum 20m first pull

It’s very important to proc 3rd unseenblade before cds

Otherwise u will do 5-8m less burst

[paper iron]

Which is what I do often but not always

Ic ic

[hazy breach]

Probably an exaggeration with the 8m, but ye having an additional 15% finisher dmg from flawless earlier is very strong

[random hare]

Yea 8 is abit a lot but yea

5 for sure tho

[paper iron]

5m sure in peak damage

8m with some lucky luck

I guess

[random hare]

Be aware that your first strike after u pop cds will trigger coup+guaranteed fazed

So you will always eviscerate on that specific moment

[median nacelle]

lil tip for sub enjoyers in brew aswell

can proc unseenb on rat just @ keystone in brew after key start too, b4 big pulls to get it asap

[random hare]

No rng involved

[random hare]

wtf

That’s insane

Ty

[median nacelle]

np

[paper iron]

Yoooo

Daffi op

[random hare]

I always did 15m peak burst without doing the unseenblade minmaxing

20m easily with it

[paper iron]

So

Start off getting 3 unseen > flag and classic burst

[random hare]

Yes

Sectech asap

That sectech won’t do much

Ur black powders probably will do more

[paper iron]

First sectec is just here to prépare the 2nd one

[autumn flame]

What kinda overall Dmg are you guys doing in cinderbrew?

[paper iron]

Anyways

[random hare]

Idk

Haven’t done it in a while and I’ll never complete it as sub again

Will sin into sub swap always

@paper iron fyi

This whole unseenblade minmaxes apply to every pull

Not just 1st one

[autumn flame]

Aye I swap between dungeons so only done cinderbrew as assa

[random hare]

Or rather every big pull

[paper iron]

I can seen that yea

[random hare]

Coup minmaxing is very important

It’s the most important thing for sub

More than ur cd management I’d say

[cursive vapor]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fathom adder]

unseen blade minmax is shadowstrike -> rupture - vanish -> rupture - backstab rupture?

[random hare]

Reason why I’m saying this is that you can get aggressive with ur dances with tfd, you can always afk away if ur behind and ur cds are almost ready

[glass jasper]

No it's not more important than CD management, but it does alot

[paper iron]

Need to start doing higher Keys so shit lives longer

[random hare]

I think u need 1 dance and thats kinda it

1.3 dances

For cds with tfd

Kinda crazy

[random hare]

Cd management is Free on sub

[paper iron]

Yea tfd doesnt seem much But it s à lot lot cdr

[random hare]

Once u understand how it works

[paper iron]

Kinda crazy

[random hare]

It’s more danse macabre dmg too

[hollow spear]

they should just make shadowblades baseline for dance

[random hare]

I like to mix eviscerate+bp at 5-10 mobs once for whatever is bad at that mob count

[hollow spear]

I hate to double strike

[random hare]

Gives free funnel and free danse macabre for the whole tfd duration

[vale pine]

the min/max just highlights how difficult it is to understand sub completely

small diffrences in gameplay can have big impact

sometimes

[hollow spear]

the problem is that people read this

and focus on unseen blades

while completely messing up their opener anyways

haha

[vale pine]

that too

[paper iron]

Dont do that, it all have relation with everything else

[vale pine]

attention is often on small details

[hollow spear]

the amount of times I look at logs posted here

[muted agate]

make storm proc unseen

😭

[vale pine]

when some of the small details barely matter

[vale tusk]

hi guys im looking at playing sub just watching some guides it doesnt show anywhere using shuriken storm or black powder in an aoe rotation for m+ is that correct?

[random hare]

@buoyant wadi in case ur interested in some tfd/unseenblade minmax discussion we had abit of a long one here

[hazy breach]

Not until 7+ targets yes

But they are mentioned

[haughty mural]

sending sectech while gathering for the unseen blade procs ?

[hollow spear]

Yes. They worry about Backstab. Then you look into their logs and they cast Shadowblades before casting Flagellation.

[random hare]

I don’t think that’s worth

[haughty mural]

ah i missunderstood you then

thank god

[random hare]

If u have to do that ur tank is slower than my grandma

[hazy breach]

"i am doing the opener just like the guide says"

[paper iron]

Zero question

Do u sectec before à raid wipe called?

[random hare]

Yea always

[buoyant wadi]

ty, will read later

[paper iron]

And so still play arround stacking some ub before sending i guesd

[random hare]

Yea

You don’t strictly do that tho

Just whenever you see an opportunity to do so go for it

[full pollen]

sorry i tried to follow the conversation since i always did 1st pull wrong. how is subrogue doing ambush ? am i missing a spell in my action bars

[paper iron]

And then u see triple sod cb backstab And 2s interval between gcds

[random hare]

Sorry I meant shadowstrike

[full pollen]

okok np. was just for my understanding. wanted to be sure 😄 thanks

[random hare]

You won’t have to backstab with the rat thing in 1st pull cinderbrew

Kinda good

[paper iron]

Goated critter

[random hare]

Be aware that all of this is with pressing sectech pre key

[paper iron]

I used to strike it for free snd on pull sometimes

Havent paid attention on ub

Its when i thinking about doing it

[random hare]

@vale pine @hazy breach is it possible to sim 20 target mobs and insta consume both rotten stacks for shuriken storm to see if it’s more value than rotten shadowstrike in those huge pulls

[hallow sigil]

What do you mean by coup management

[random hare]

Considering u already proced the unseenblades beforehand

Could possible sim it with coup up

[hazy breach]

Not sure what you mean

Shadowstrike does way more damage than storm

[random hare]

Always consume both rotten stacks with 1 storm in 20-30 mob counts in opener

That’s what I’m asking^

[hazy breach]

but why

[haughty mural]

so your opener is faster ?

on those mobcounts ?

[random hare]

I’m just wondering if that extra fw’ed blackpowder would do more in between

Would gain more*

[hazy breach]

Why would there be an un-fwed bp

I dont understand

[random hare]

Like

[hazy breach]

Strike > sectech > storm > bp

[random hare]

I sometimes press symbols before sectech (after strike)

I guess that solves it

I should probably use symbols before or

Sounds abit hard

[haughty mural]

do you mean because of resets after your sectech ?

[random hare]

Yea

I mean

[haughty mural]

that you feel you need to send storm for fw instant

ok figured

[random hare]

Yea

It’s wrong tho

Unless we prove it’s a gain

But idk

[haughty mural]

also wondered that tbh

[random hare]

I just find it hard to symbols early and lign it up well

@hazy breach what if this wasn’t even simmed

Correctly

[hazy breach]

But like

What youre saying makes no sense

[random hare]

Like I can see how it would go well on a sim

[hazy breach]

Why would you delay your symbols

Just to lose a rotten stack

When you could just not

[random hare]

Doesn’t strike only do like

2m dmg

Or

It’s just the issue being us not being able to shuriken storm until 4-5 seconds inside of our cds because of lust+ shadowtech resets

[random hare]

Like

[hazy breach]

Well ye but it also cleaves for 60% of that and procs unseen blade which also cleaves

[random hare]

Is the strike a big deal

Doesn’t feel like a big deal compared to spreading fw early or?

[hazy breach]

Spreading fw for what

[random hare]

Ye I mean unseenblade aside

[vale pine]

it is possible to sim 20 mobs, but also quite rare to have 20 mobs

[random hare]

Bp dmg

[hazy breach]

But youre not casting any until after storming anyway

[paper iron]

that s perfect opener

[tribal blade]

WTF IS THIS OPENER

[random hare]

My eyes

[autumn flame]

Never BP just evis ethical prio Dmggodx

[paper iron]

hope this opener make it into the guide on 1st april

no joke

[tribal blade]

this is literally "whoops, i forgot to press X during opener better just press it now"

[random hare]

Ok I think I just have to symbols early

[autumn flame]

Give a new player sub rogue and watch them suffer

[limber relic]

https://tenor.com/view/pacha-perfect-emperors-new-groove-very-good-gif-18089782898853427957

[random hare]

Idk

Seems abit cooked

[tribal blade]

"wdym there are no lighty upy buttons"

[random hare]

Just for the sake of consuming 1st rotten stacks sending a random strike that won’t do anything on a 20-30 mob count sounds cooked

[paper iron]

and make them play deathstalker also

[tribal blade]

we joke about DS sub but watch blizz mega buff DS again

(i'm kidding, don't do that blizz)

[random hare]

U can just send shuriken storm and consume both rotten stacks to avoid shadowtechnique overlap procs that will prevent you from shuriken storming for 4-5 finishers inside of flag and shadowblades

@hazy breach that’s mainly the argument atm

[hazy breach]

Why are you delaying your symbols anyway

Like theres literally no reason to

[random hare]

U think so?

I can just symbols before flag?

While tank is grouping or

[hazy breach]

No not before flag

At the same time as you dance

[autumn flame]

The answer is literally always just play ret/bm

Just press divine storm

[random hare]

I don’t delay it further than that I just find it not enough

U just get overwhelming shadowtech stacks

Hard to shuriken storm

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

?

[limber relic]

How often are you sending coup without symbols? Pretty much only when you're saving up for CDs soon?

[tribal blade]

you don't need to think too hard about when to press coup

[random hare]

I probably wrote it wrong

It was more like, flag > symbols dance sectech shadowblades etc

[limber relic]

Gotcha...Trying to figure out why my logs seem low so trying to figure out the small stuff

[hazy breach]

Well ye there should be a strike before the sectech

[tribal blade]

we used to do some tech to delay coup for dances, but that's sort of gone now

[limber relic]

I may have been sending finishers at 5 for a minute because counting is hard

[random hare]

I do get a lot of auto attacks when grouping up mobs

Ye but

[tribal blade]

you can still do it for a slight gain before cds, but it's not the end of the world if you don't

[random hare]

That won’t have rotten

Or?

[hazy breach]

?

Dance+symbols > strike > sectech

[short aurora]

"Trust me guys i got sub down i Just need HoC to Pop off"

[haughty mural]

I think you two are missing each others points right now

[random hare]

U think it’s worth sending a builder inside of dance?

When u can start it with full cp

Wouldn’t you just backstab instead

[limber relic]

One other question...when setting up sectechs outside CDs do you dance > BS > Evis > strike > sectech?

[tribal blade]

am i high, is that 3 symbols casts in the opener

[random hare]

Because tfd is too long

[hazy breach]

You could backstab but the backstab vs strike doesnt really matter for aoe

[upbeat escarp]

Whats with the “send sec tech when a wipe is called?

[random hare]

It’s just too hectic to send dance before flag or what do u mean?

[hazy breach]

Well you'd get more flag stacks, a dm stack and an extra flawless for your sectech

[random hare]

Wait u mean

Flag into

Shadowdance strike?

Feels wrong or

[hazy breach]

Flag > rupture > go

exactly like always

[random hare]

[mint swift]

i don't even play sub at

[wet robin]

can anyone re-share the symbols macro that prevents overlapping casts? the cast sequence one

[hazy breach]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[wet robin]

tytyty

[mint swift]

And that's giving my non existent brain an aneurism

[random hare]

Ok

I’m trying to imagine the whole pull

Ok I agree Eleem

[crystal bone]

zeross hooked on sub

[vale pine]

thanks for sharing this critical piece of information with us

[crystal bone]

playing out pulls in his head

[mint swift]

I was reffering to the openers mister fuuu

[upbeat escarp]

He thinks he is like Baki, fighting an imaginary monster and getting stronger

[glass jasper]

However free it may be, it's still the most important part

[random hare]

[plush roost]

Reading about the coup minmaxing its pmuch what i do now but you're saying you get it in your opener first pull or am i misreading Zeross

[floral stump]

What does /cqs ?

[plush roost]

Like theres no way you have 3 stacks before cds on your first pull unless you're delaying which seems wrong

[glass jasper]

You get it naturally for your 2nd sectech anyway

And that is the one that matters

The only fight I see delaying opener could be reasonable is vexie, you want to hold your second set about 20-30 sec anyway for the damage amp phase, so delaying 20 sec at the start shouldn't matter

But other than that, don't

[plush roost]

I mean yes, but its also for all your powder/evis's. I'm moreso just wondering if theres some tech zeross is doing to have 3 stacks before cds at the start of a dungeon

But maybe I'm just misreading the conversation above, its kind of a bit all over the place

Also yeah i was considering holding on vexie maybe i give that a try next eekk

Also considered holding on cauldron but idk its always annoying trying to gauge the kill timer

[glass jasper]

I don't delay on vexie tho, I just send at start then i ride bikes for 1.5 minutes or so

[plush roost]

I mean its just to be a parse fiend

Hehe

[glass jasper]

True

[azure mauve]

i had to get rid of transmitter and use the pvp trinket on OAB

[calm kernel]

do you guys do more than 1 rupture in aoe? 4+mobs

[slate lantern]

while tank is gathering

dont want to delay cds too much trying to apply it to all the mobs

esp if theyre going to die quickly to burst

[muted agate]

do the roar

make dark brew great again

[limber relic]

I usually throw out a few ruptures before CDs if the pack is going to live long enough

And then reapply after CDs when you're noodle slapping

[muted agate]

play with 2 other burst classes

[hazy breach]

The firemage VS sub rogue duel in theatre

[clear aspen]

LMAO

[hazy breach]

Somebody has to grief their damage

[clear aspen]

i hate it when they want me to kill them as sub rog

like cmon

[hazy breach]

Otherwise both just end up in the arena for 30 seconds

[limber relic]

Bro I had a boomy that went bearform and started healing in that yesterda

I was like wtf bro

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/vader-lightsaber-vader-duel-star-wars-darth-vader-gif-20018229

a duel to the death

[slate marlin]

i always turn my back and let them kill me fast

[final holly]

The ultimate lose lose. You either waste your CDs ending the duel or you use your CDs with a damage down afterwards

[slate marlin]

Id argue using cds on duel and not having them on boss is much more dmg lost than 10%

[hazy breach]

Usually yes

[final holly]

Yeah I think you're right, it just feels bad either way

[hazy breach]

But the problem is fire mages do roughly the same out of cd damage we do

So youll be stuck in the arena for like 30s if none of you grief your cds

Which is even worse

[shrewd shadow]

Nah fuck that, blow all your CD and some em you’re better

[limber relic]

Pop a symbols and a sectech and that magey boy dead

[slate marlin]

I found out im happier killing flamestrike spamming fire mages than killing bosses

[hazy breach]

The reason for sub being so low on cauldron is because of the sectech log bug

IE if the person logging is on the other side (100+ yards away) sectech isnt properly attributed to the rogue

So you lose like 150k-200k dps in logs

Sub obviously isnt amazing on that boss either way, but that bug pulls the average down a lot

[upper narwhal]

This is why I'm the log guy, so I can blame my self for dog parsing

Also why the fk couldn't they make the bosses clash like 10s later so we can CD them both man, shit boss

[mighty citrus]

is there anything special about cauldron? any tips or just send it?

[rustic pond]

pretty much

[plush roost]

On god i just use shadow dance if i get sent down for the duel and get back upstairs asap

Yeah i lose some dps but guess what we're both upstairs doing a net gain in dps

[final holly]

There's a cook you can do where you save flag/blades for the first clash and it comes up for every subsequent clash

[mighty citrus]

^this feels wrong 😄

[rustic pond]

considering how hectic is the clash phase, its not easy to cleave both during your window. But you can try, 5 or 6th parse overall on the fight do that

but on a normal fight length you are loosing a window

[hollow spear]

Should log yourself ig?

[trail furnace]

Is there an add on that will inform me when I’m about to get a free combo point full refresh? Not sure if I’m explaining it well, I’m not good with WAs, wondering if there’s something else

[paper iron]

you re meaning shadowcraft refund?

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[civic lava]

Wait so to avoid that can the sub rogue log himself ?

[paper iron]

the first one in utilities might be what you re looking for

@trail furnace

[hazy breach]

Yes or be on the same side as the person logging

either or

[trail furnace]

Thank you!

[alpine wraith]

yea but every time someone goofs the log our overall rating goes down

[paper iron]

which is good

more buffs

oh nah wait that s for devoker

[gritty gorge]

When and how are we using CB + Sec Tech with TFD in Dungeons?

[haughty widget]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[alpine wraith]

nothing changes use cb on second secret tech on cds

[paper iron]

do u have the profil that sim better with darkbrew under hand? i simmed mine and it seems to be a big loss for me in dslice

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/wDwq2xiE1pQXyXRRmYkU5m

[hazy breach]

You'd need to copy the custom APL from fuus sheet, but its still scuffed for some setups

Which is why its not been pushed yet

[paper iron]

oh yea it s not pushed in the apl yet

i thought so

also, i lied, not that big of a loss but still behind

[gentle pebble]

hey, just picking up sub. would it be a good move to macro symbols into dance? or is that going to be a dps loss

[short aurora]

It's answered in the guide

[gentle pebble]

okay ill take a look. wowhead one?

[short aurora]

You can but you should still have sd and sod on separate keybinds nonetheless

[gentle pebble]

noted. thanks very much. ill take a read up on the guide as you said also

[short aurora]

[autumn flame]

14.4% DPS range is higher than usual right?

[hazy breach]

Not really

Per the simc website

(not exactly DPS range, but its the standard deviation, aka roughly how rng a spec is)

[alpine wraith]

yea most of sub rng is getting crits on cds rn

[autumn flame]

I meant as in compared to previous patches

[alpine wraith]

nah we have had crazy variance on sub before

more than 20%

[hazy breach]

Less than 10.2

[random hare]

DF variance was insane

[alpine wraith]

bfa was even more

the diff with critting or not critting was so big

and sl with that cursed as f tier from s3

or the gems from s2

nightmares

[tidal python]

Cold blood existing as an ability kinda negates that, but it also makes crit as a stat undesirable

[autumn flame]

Right idk just got early df varience stuck in my brain I guess

[alpine wraith]

also in wod

we had more than 40%

soul cap into ring into soul cap

or bust

and even in MoP the last tier set was crazy rng too

[autumn flame]

Rng

[alpine wraith]

converting a backstab into ambush making FW higher uptime was huge back then too

[tidal python]

I miss having to actively manage find weakness

Felt right as sub

[alpine wraith]

you never really managed it tho

[autumn flame]

I member Assa had like 9% at some point

[alpine wraith]

just had moments where it was important

[hazy breach]

Iirc it was like 4.3 or so in late DF so not completely insane, but higher than current ye

[pulsar hemlock]

I want legion dfa build back

[alpine wraith]

you had it and you blasted or you didnt

[tidal python]

I mean in the sense that you couldn't just randomly get it up with backstab so you had to intentionally dance or vanish to extend it

[hazy breach]

Current build plays very similar

[pulsar hemlock]

True

[hazy breach]

It just doesnt have the animation DFA did

[alpine wraith]

people want 1 big hit

time to bully the devs

[pulsar hemlock]

But no superhero attack

[autumn flame]

Secret tech is really underwhelming imo

[alpine wraith]

i hate it

[autumn flame]

Could make cool af

[alpine wraith]

same with this split evis

[autumn flame]

Kyvezza style

[pulsar hemlock]

If only it was visually appealing at all

[hazy breach]

Sectech does similar damage as DFA did, just doesnt look cool

[alpine wraith]

and coup is even worse

[tidal python]

Coup de grace having its damage divided into multiple hits feels wrong too

Yeah

[alpine wraith]

and darkest night is just

an evis

[autumn flame]

Kyvezza trinket has cooler animation than sec tech

[hazy breach]

Like if you got 25M crits with your sectech instead of multiple small hits it would be way more satsifying

[pulsar hemlock]

I want full size susanoo like purple clones when I cb-sectech at the end of my burst

[sly shore]

that's what made dfa very satisfying

that one huge number

[pulsar hemlock]

And boy was it

[silent ruin]

For those interested darkest night + 2 piece set + dfa works in pvp if you like

[pulsar hemlock]

I wish they'd bring back fall damage immunity for Sub, was so thematic and cool

[placid crown]

what the hell is happening in my logs

[hoary lotus]

You order symbols twice

[placid crown]

but i dont

[hoary lotus]

Pressed

Clearly lol

[hazy breach]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[placid crown]

it happens same 1min after

[hushed roost]

is there a bug with tricks in raid setting mess up tank swap threat?

[tidal python]

The sad truth is that they don't know what the theme is

Sometimes sub is a professional killer who strikes from the shadows, sometimes it's a shadow ninja that literally summons shadow clones

[sinful marten]

how does the shadowdance backstab macro work exactly

[pulsar hemlock]

Press it twice

[hoary lotus]

First press is dance

[tidal python]

We could probably have cooler visuals if they simply settled on sub being the "voidy" spec

[hoary lotus]

2nd is backstabb

[sinful marten]

ye im trying it doesnt work

[woven arrow]

Looks like SoD is macrod to SD

[pulsar hemlock]

I'm od'ing on hopium for a void ethereal themed rework for fatebound in 11.2

Or maybe Midnight

[sinful marten]

im spamming the macro on dummy it doesnt backstab ever

[hazy breach]

You likely dont have it on your stealth bar

So it swaps to your stealthbar where you dont have your macro

[sinful marten]

ah true

[tepid trellis]

[placid crown]

yes

[kind bluff]

So for the magnet trinket
, do we spam it or wait for stacks.

[alpine wraith]

depends what you want to do

it is one of those trinkets where you can move dmg from one phase to another

quite cool

just dont use it 20 secs before cds

[placid crown]

actually i have sod+sd+strike macro but weirdly presing it 1 time don't always make the cast of the strike, so i kinda press 2 times fast, and here i am with the 2 SoD

[kind bluff]

Cool I thought so. Ty!

[tidal python]

Thematically-wise all our hero trees are uninspiring

[alpine wraith]

it even makes me wonder

how many problems would be solved by just adding buttons

like unseen as a skill

or darkest night as a skill or deathstalkers mark

sometimes simplifying things makes things worse in the end

[pulsar hemlock]

I would love more buttons to press, unironically.

[hazy breach]

Yes, you cant macro dance+strike with one button press

Because theres a slight delay of a couple of milliseconds before you can strike after you enter dance

[tidal python]

I just wish we had gotten an ethereal-themed hero spec or a warden-themed one

So many cool options

[pulsar hemlock]

11.2/Midnight

[robust saddle]

hello, may i ask how come some ppl taking finality over rotten in raid ST?

[hazy breach]

Slightly better

[robust saddle]

is it because of the backstab as first gcd in dance?

[placid crown]

But even more weirdly it seems that this problem does not exist with bs instead of strike

[hazy breach]

You can cast backstab outside of dance

You cannot cast strike

But like, the reason the guides arent recommending a bunch of macros isnt because were elitist and think theyre dumb. Its because they dont really help you out

[upper narwhal]

Just noticed the new M+ build on the sheet, are there any gameplay changes that come with it? Other than Tornado ofc

[pulsar hemlock]

Would you still want finality over rotten on cleave fights?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[alpine wraith]

it is funny how it was 1.2% for me

[pulsar hemlock]

Noted, ty

[hazy breach]

Rotten is useful for applying FW to all targets for your BP

If you dont bp

[alpine wraith]

also tfd went ahead of wm too

[hazy breach]

You dont need it more for aoe

[robust saddle]

ah i see, cheers mate

[hazy breach]

But like, the difference is very minor either way so

[hazy breach]

No. Keep in mind you use tornado outside of cds

[alpine wraith]

just stack mastery until it becomes better for fin

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vZRNqEV67gdEQjQp19fRRq

jastor waiting room

yea tornado is for cdr guys

[pulsar hemlock]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

The sim really really likes using it immediately on pull to apply ruptures before bursting

Presumably also to have more chances to apply FWs since no rotten

But thats with targets living through most of the ruptures

In most weeklies they wont

[vagrant thorn]

is this the ultimate sub rogue mount?

[pulsar hemlock]

If it flew, yeah

[vale pine]

looks great for sure

[alpine wraith]

makes sense tbh you get the cd rolling

but i like to use it after cds

a bit of an issue is if you have a tfd dance

then another

you have sec tech again too with a dance

so you end up dancing 3 times kinda

[keen dome]

PURPLE

[alpine wraith]

THEN you could tornado so it is ehehe

but if you open and tornado ruptures it makes a bit of sense=

[upper narwhal]

Hmm trying the build and Tornado feels really good, feels like your cds line up a lot more naturally with the dance cdr from tornado

[hollow condor]

Guys what did you craft this week as 3rd item? Checked few logs from today and a lot of people are still waiting with their 3rd.

[upper narwhal]

I did boots cuz there's only one versa/mastery boot and it's a boe

neck or back are also good options

[placid crown]

Can someone remind me why theorically the best moment for sod before the pull is like 17-20sec before the pull, pls

[hazy breach]

Gloves, wrist, neck, boots, ring all solid

[placid crown]

what does it change if i sod just after the res

[lavish rose]

you get the rotten bonus. its very slight

[hazy breach]

If you run rotten you can get 2 uses of them, but it doesnt matter much at all

And also it would be more like 20-25s

Not 17

[hollow condor]

ty

[hazy breach]

But i wouldnt bother with rotten

[lavish rose]

just makes your builders crit but doesnt matter

[hazy breach]

Just press symbols when you get ressed

[lavish rose]

2 stored points is bigger ya

does anyone know if seaforium pacemaker is actually good in m+? i cant get it to sim higher than suspicious energy drink in any scenario

[mint swift]

I was literally gonna make a joke that if you saw it you’d loose your marbles

[placid crown]

ah yeah it is for the timer of the rotten ok ^^

[hollow spear]

I managed to fudge my stats in a way that my mythic transmitter sims worse than my normal hoc

big win

[bleak night]

https://tenor.com/view/sacha-baron-cohen-great-success-yay-gif-4185058

[alpine wraith]

stack mastery

??

profit

[hollow spear]

stack versatility!

[upbeat escarp]

Whats the gain of pressing SoD after rez? You get a bigger rupture?

[paper iron]

supercharger

basically

on rupture / 1st sectech

[upbeat escarp]

So if you SoD after rez , you SoD again after the first sectech?

[hazy breach]

the presod changes literally nothing about how you play

Its just +3 combo points on your first 2 finishers

[upbeat escarp]

Your first 2 finishers are rupture and sectech, but before sectech dont you use SOD anyway with all your cds?

[solemn creek]

That means. 1 10 combo rupture. + 1 evi

[hazy breach]

You do, but you can have more than 2 superchargers stored

So it doesnt matter

You just play exaclty the same as usual

[upbeat escarp]

Oh it does not overide, i understand now

[vagrant thorn]

I bet sub rogues and shadow priests are gonna be OP in the Midnight expansion cause it fits the theme!

[bleak night]

actually it'll be druids

midnight=moon=elune=boomkin

[vagrant thorn]

nah cause its gonna be a shadow & void themed expansion 😛

[bleak night]

its an elf themed expansion

night elf=elune=boomkin

[astral axle]

The answer is mages

[vagrant thorn]

void elf

[solemn creek]

As long as we get some change 😅 we are back to the old ways. Sub do good in pre patch. They nerf. Then they manage to buff everyone but leave sub unchange. Sub fall off and off

[astral axle]

You fools

[vagrant thorn]

i'm gonna race change my sub rogue to void elf and ride that purple bike into the Midnight exp

[clever delta]

to the prison we go, was nice to play sub for couple weeks again see you at s3

[solemn creek]

U swapping to..?

[alpine wraith]

i also had signet in vault

but HoC too

so we skipped it

no remorse

i have a reputation

[clever delta]

i have second time in row signt in vault

but assa look strong and im benched bandit

so

[random hare]

@paper iron https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2416771526

1st pull first key of the day

20m opener

and its even a split pull

i forgot to backstab before cds but ye

wasnt bad at all

i think what matters the most is coup before 2nd sectech

which is what i did

just to your note of 20m dps being impossible, im even using a single target trinket, and the pull is just 15 mobs

[alpine wraith]

wait who said 20m was impossible

we are blasters!

just others do 30m+

but we dont talk about those

[random hare]

well he didnt say its impossible

but ye

[vale pine]

lol

[random hare]

just a metaphore

[vale pine]

the def. not clickbait title

[solemn creek]

Why is the title "broken sin dps"

[random hare]

[alpine wraith]

has to get the clicks

[solemn creek]

I was expecting a sin pov 😅 it worked

[random hare]

ye i got like 62 subs and i didnt even open my mic only once

[paper iron]

ROGUE META

[solemn creek]

Wouldnt have click

[paper iron]

SIN BROKEN DPS

[random hare]

[vale pine]

the duality in men

[random hare]

changed it to sub broken dps

[paper iron]

that s clean zero

[solemn creek]

Hahaha.

[paper iron]

i figured it out i tried it

it s definitly better

[random hare]

[solemn creek]

That was sent at the same time or close to your comment too

[random hare]

new bug

[solemn creek]

New bug! St trinket doing good!

In aoe. With 0 stack

[paper iron]

and yea i ve seen some 20m

but on cinderbrew start

i dont remember how much it was

27m i think

pretty crazy

[alpine wraith]

i dont like cinderbrew so i dont play that one

usually highest i do is on floodgate

but lately i just do 8 rookery for weeklies

[random hare]

i mean

i just did 20m on 15 mobs

[paper iron]

also

[random hare]

cinderbrew is double the mobs maybe

xd

[paper iron]

u sent cds on 2ub

havent we established 3 was better

[civic pagoda]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[random hare]

16 real mobs+many yellows

on 1st pull

[paper iron]

yea true true

[random hare]

so maybe 30 mobs

[alpine wraith]

dont you get murdered by 2 chair guys

[paper iron]

totally right

[alpine wraith]

or you focus 1 fast

[random hare]

fopcus 1 fast

[alpine wraith]

even on a 11 the tank kinda got rinsed

maybe just first week problems

now people are more geared

[paper iron]

you re using truffigcd zero?

[alpine wraith]

no one uses that kinda

anymore

there is a fork of the one mystler made ages ago that is very good rn

[paper iron]

Should try to switch to the details in-build gcd tracker, doesnt duplicate gcds like yours

better understanding of what s pressed for newers

this is a good clip actually

to analyse

[keen dome]

need to add a "WORLD FIRST" or something

[grave delta]

Think I've got transmitter stockholm syndrome

every time i do the opener i miss the lady telling me to jump 3 times

[young trench]

xD

[void ocean]

nado used to be on cdr, right?

[paper iron]

i found that , should work

[placid crown]

I just calculated the benefit to SoD before the pull in order to have the rotten buff active for the 2 first builders (a priori 1 strike and 1 backstab) compared to doing SoD way before the pull (then rotten wouldnt be active anymore for the builders). My maths lead me to say that, in the best cases, for a fight mono-target of 5 minutes, you will upgrade [in (100-critchance)² % of the cases (let's say 64% of the cases if you have 20% crit chance)] your dps by ~0.2%.

This is not a lot, but it may be enough do beat Echo's rogue

[jaunty umbra]

I just calculated the benefit to SoD before the pull in order to have the rotten buff active for the 2 first builders (a priori 1 strike and 1 backstab) compared to doing SoD way before the pull (then rotten wouldnt be active anymore for the builders). My maths lead me to say that, in the best cases, for a fight mono-target of 5 minutes, you will upgrade [in (100-critchance)² % of the cases (let's say 64% of the cases if you have 20% crit chance)] your dps by ~0.2%.

[placid crown]

(for my defense, considering the ilvl diff, i played deathstalker and he hot external buffS)

[karmic harbor]

kush so washed can barely beat ecologue

[placid crown]

still top world on these specific conditions though 😄

[spark plover]

dunno where to click

[placid crown]

(less than 80 parses lmao)

[upbeat escarp]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[karmic harbor]

why are you playing deathstalker

more fun?

[jaunty umbra]

it's an obvious choice

[placid crown]

nah i mean when i did this parse i was top 500 all rogues (meaning 499 tricksters were better) so at this moment i changed to trickster.

Stayed deathstalker for a long moment because i felt it easier to play it

and better in single target while i was still in S1 set