subtlety

[tepid trellis]

it is only a 15% chance of it dropping

just dont be unlucky

[still quartz]

or probably just GAMBLE

yeah

exactly

time to be outlaw once

[short radish]

i swear there's an internal modifier in there that says higher stacks = higher chance of it dropping

but maybe it is confirmation bias

[still quartz]

you bet

[tepid trellis]

best recommendation i can make is to just not track the set in raid at all

[short radish]

since i notice when i lose 8 stacks

[tepid trellis]

pure vibes

[short radish]

but idgaf when i lose 2 stacks

[tepid trellis]

had that happen in raid twice on pull

and then i stopped tracking my tierset in raid

best decision of my life

[short radish]

ignorance kinda bliss

[tepid trellis]

wont tilt me i cant see it

[short radish]

maybe i'll turn it off as well

[warm marlin]

from what I can tell the apl ruptures only once flag has 10s left

probably fine to do

[short radish]

thank you for confirming my feelycraft

[warm marlin]

ive also just been rupturing if i have like 15s on flag and coup up + 8 stacks

the amount of times ive been burned pressing blackpowder to see 8 tier stacks disappear and then only proc twice in cds is too high

[tribal blade]

i still track the set because i like seeing

[tepid trellis]

tbf i dont really do any of the minmaxes

i dont hold coup's i dont backstab in dance

[lucid jackal]

whasts even hold coup

is it 20?

[tepid trellis]

around there yeh

[lucid jackal]

I do all the minmaxes

Dont matter cuz 663 ilvl

[tepid trellis]

i do none of em

[twilit phoenix]

Twinning

[tepid trellis]

and i still get 100s

[warm marlin]

wowhead says 20-30

[tepid trellis]

why do more when i can do less

[lucid jackal]

dude sin on mugzee is so chill

Only sin minmax is DN in Lingering Shadows

Other than that u dont pool

U dont do nothin

[short radish]

i dont want to play sin again

[warm marlin]

honestly I would probably hold coup/tier if it was a slight loss because seeing big numbers in cds is fun

[twilit phoenix]

[brisk onyx]

you will

[lucid jackal]

this tier is good

[brisk onyx]

[lucid jackal]

Noobs who base their entire opinion on the tier based on RWF say this tier is bad

but idk bro

I like the difficulty distribution

[short radish]

whos saying this tier is bad?

[twilit phoenix]

This raid bangs

[tepid trellis]

i dont vibe with the bosses

[short radish]

only boss i dont vibe with is stix

[lucid jackal]

sprocket a good boss

oab a good boss

[tepid trellis]

Locken makes me incredibly angry

[lucid jackal]

Mugzee has bee fun so far

[short radish]

sprocket is so chill for melee

[warm marlin]

locken was kinda interesting

[short radish]

like what mechanics do melee acutally have to do there otehr than just hit boss

[tribal blade]

locken feels alright so far

we've done half a night of prog on it

[tepid trellis]

i love when the tank that is tanking the boss is the same colour as me for 80% of the fight

so i cant apply FW outside of dances

[short radish]

and mald at ranged dropping drills in melee

[tepid trellis]

its a 10/10 experience

[brisk onyx]

locken is a bitch

[tribal blade]

i noticed this earlier

[tepid trellis]

horseshit mechanic

[lucid jackal]

Mines, all the movement, the swapping

[tribal blade]

bro backstab only applying FW from behind is so bad

[lucid jackal]

Its chill idk

[tribal blade]

why is backstab even a thing anymore

[tepid trellis]

just remove FW

[tribal blade]

backstab does 0 damage

[short radish]

oh yeah and that

[tribal blade]

but has a directional requirement

[short radish]

flavor

[tepid trellis]

personally i loved

[twilit phoenix]

Make all sub abilities like BS

[warm marlin]

removing parry with fazed just to have to stand behind the boss anyway for FW is insane

[tepid trellis]

only having 70% FW

[barren wolf]

shit tier

[bleak night]

sub should only do damage if they're behind the target

to be thematic

[lucid jackal]

NOOB ALERT

[brisk onyx]

or play sin and kb was parried

[barren wolf]

wrong, monk alert(noob too)

[lucid jackal]

I just dont track shit I can't control

[tepid trellis]

and then you go

lemme just try and storm for FW

ah shit

45 energy

and it didn't crit

yep

great

[barren wolf]

bruh last time i played sub was on raszageth, i changed class before i went sub this expansion

[tepid trellis]

dogshit 15 year old mechanic (i dont fcking know when FW became a thing)

[twilit phoenix]

Sub is so fun rn

[warm marlin]

why is it not just backstab crits/base shadowstrikes apply FW

[barren wolf]

backshots should apply find weakness imo

[tribal blade]

FW in itself just creates more problems than it solves

[tepid trellis]

sorry its 14 years old

[tribal blade]

because of shadowed finishers

[brisk onyx]

and gb also like this now

[tribal blade]

and also backstab bullshit applying FW

[twilit phoenix]

FW should only be applied with shuriken toss

[bleak night]

shuriken toss as a rotational ability

[warm marlin]

fwiw skipping the backstab for DM and just shadowstriking for FW is a decent gain if you are forced to stand in front of the boss

[bleak night]

to lean into the ninja aesthetic

[twilit phoenix]

Shuriken weaving

[tribal blade]

it's just funny that backstab went from a huge dopamine button during vanilla critting for 1/3rd of people's hp

and now it's a useless button that does 0 dam

[tepid trellis]

thats the main reason im skipping the backstab completely

[barren wolf]

bfa s1 vibes

[tepid trellis]

Deadly throw

in WoD

making you ranged xD

[barren wolf]

i was like 4 yo in WoD

idk

[tribal blade]

yeah i was skipping the backstab min max during the start of TWW and still parsing pretty well

[bleak night]

i only started playing rogue in shadowlands so these words mean nothing to me

[tribal blade]

start of this season*

[tepid trellis]

i was in college

[barren wolf]

🤠

[twilit phoenix]

I was in high school

[bleak night]

when was wod

[warm marlin]

just track FW and backstab if its up and shadowstrike if its not

[bleak night]

2014

think i had just started highschool

[tepid trellis]

fully skib backstabbing

is the way

let blizzard know that, that button should NOT be pressed in dance

[vagrant sinew]

I was old even in wod

[tribal blade]

it still doesn't feel good pressing stab in dance

[tepid trellis]

ryler you were old

[tribal blade]

i don't like it

[twilit phoenix]

[tepid trellis]

when the game launched

[vagrant sinew]

why do you have to hurt me with words like that

[bleak night]

https://tenor.com/view/jd-words-hurt-forever-scrubs-hurt-forever-gif-11564764

[tepid trellis]

it is what it is

[tribal blade]

hey during the lockensprock intermission with gate

do you guys just insta step the boss

[barren wolf]

if you mean mythic, i didnt play rogue but just do it with gate/knock because there might be someone else not doing it properly and ending up on boss

and youll get touched

[tribal blade]

good point

[warm marlin]

seemed a bit risky

step another person and pull go kaboom

it only takes like 1.5s to run into melee after gate with sprint

[tribal blade]

watching a pov and looks a lot simpler to just stack with your group yeah

the whole time

[random hare]

@tepid trellis gear check

[barren wolf]

after nerfs the boss is just play safe, kill boss

[warm marlin]

it's not really a super tight damage check and you end up holding flag for a bit anyway at the 3min mark so farming the cdr for stuff isnt too tight

just chill vibe through

[tepid trellis]

same answer as 12 hours ago

[barren wolf]

lol no jaster diamond

[tepid trellis]

i still dont raid wednesday

[random hare]

bad ring

no cap

[barren wolf]

imagine not having jaster diamond on 2 characters

🥶

[random hare]

its shit

[warm marlin]

use the ring from top

as off ring

or pvp neck

[random hare]

what are u yapping about

[warm marlin]

u got too much mastery

[tepid trellis]

kinda what happens when you sit at 106% mastery

mastery becomes

not good

[random hare]

i mean

[worn ivy]

Ive the same
Problem

[random hare]

i guess yea

mastery is good in m+ or

[worn ivy]

110 mastery rn

[random hare]

sims almost the same for me

in dslice

[clever dirge]

guys which is better now after the patch sub or assa?

[barren wolf]

still ww

[clever dirge]

ww?

[tepid trellis]

green rogue

[tribal blade]

windwalker monk

[clever dirge]

i didnt ask which class though

[tepid trellis]

Rogue is mid regardless, the diff between the two is so minor that you can just play w/e

they sim pretty much identical to each other

one has better passive cleave other has burst cleave

one has execute, one does not

[clever dirge]

thanks

[tepid trellis]

so like value out those things and pick from there

[lucid jackal]

Sub everywhere

Sin mugzee mythic

💯

[worn ivy]

i guess versa flask solving the issue for me. https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oJcLUa7VgFT83FwXMv2HL3

@random hare

[random hare]

yea im going higher vers

[worn ivy]

if my char didnt got bugged i would craft boots or wrist with versa but blizz loves me

apperently missing 1 spark due to bugged weekly

[vernal junco]

shit

still no cards

[worn ivy]

get the peacemaker bro wdym

[vernal junco]

yep

[lusty swan]

should i be outlaw sub or sin for M+. i really like sub but i feel i fall behind classes like paladins in the 12's range of keys

[hoary lotus]

play what you want

it literally doens't matter

especially in a 12

[tribal blade]

is it sin for mugzee for the execute

[lucid jackal]

both specs aer good

play whats fun/comfortable

[lucid jackal]

P1 u hold damage so p1 damage doesnt matter

plus sin cleave can go thru walls

[tribal blade]

gotcha

[lucid jackal]

and sin gets an execute lust

For reference, unless sub is getting +1 cds, and idk if even then it matters

Sin is 20% stronger than the other 2 in execute

[tribal blade]

cool cool, i'm gonna seriously consider playing sin on that fight then

[lucid jackal]

Unless u feel like being a special snowflake

Id suggest sin really hard

[tribal blade]

probably depends

like my guild is progging locken right now

just started locken prog

so by the time we get to mugzee we'll have a lot more gear and raid buff

but yeah sin doing way more execute dam sounds juicy

damn there's only 1 public rogue log of m mugzee

[lucid jackal]

oab hard boss

[worn ivy]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[warm marlin]

sub will beat sin if its a 2min execute phase right

they need the 2nd deathmark to really pull ahead

[barren wolf]

literally only last phase matters

so assa is better uwu

[tribal blade]

fair point

i dig it

[barren wolf]

like you just get out of melee for 10-15 seconds during bombs in p1 to soak shit

[worn ivy]

what is this talents bro.. https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ctKn3PxXKMMTvoBfpMkQ6g

[barren wolf]

cause dmg is irrelevant

[lucid jackal]

eh idk

its an execute lust either way

So like

Its a really good deathmark

[barren wolf]

i wish i could play assa on mugzee...

[tribal blade]

i meant to look up how to optimally play around TTK

[warm marlin]

I dont particularly want to play sin so really hoping to see that it's like a 1:50 burn by the time we get there

[barren wolf]

you dont

[tribal blade]

less thinking? nice

[random hare]

you only play around the last 1 stack envenom buff @tribal blade

[tribal blade]

gotcha

[novel plaza]

they gotta buff black powder dmg no cap

[tribal blade]

continually buffing BP dam becomes problematic

[novel plaza]

either that or give shuriken tornado for free

[random hare]

they can buff dance cdr instead and energy regen slightly if they do

[novel plaza]

somehow get easier access

[random hare]

cooked

tornado is outdated

must be deleted

[novel plaza]

something must be done, our aoe is not competitive enough

[potent summit]

Uncap aoe like splatter in sin and delete BP

Give sub banshees blight

[muted agate]

sub when everyone else gets gear 💀

[potent summit]

Done

Also banshees blight with the execute. Tune it a bit and sub can play the game

[tribal blade]

yeah nado is a horrible button now

doesn't fit with sub at all anymore

[lusty swan]

Hey prolly dumb question but is bubbling wax worth using at all? Or just use the whetstones

[muted agate]

fuck nado

never liked tha button

[potent summit]

Prob is Blizz doesn’t give a damn about sub. There are many dead talents and things like BP, Nado and Goremaw

[lusty swan]

I feel like some classes like ret burst just as hard in aoe and just sustain there

[potent summit]

Find Weakness needs rework. Dark Brew is kinda out of place aswell

Lingering shadow is odd af

So many talents that don’t fit into any builds or do anything

[fleet acorn]

When I spam bs 20 sec with no Energy to get fw up on the boss to Finally do my small burst dance

[potent summit]

You get fw with strike

So no need to farm it. But ya it’s still a shit talent

[fleet acorn]

U burst not with dance- Strike on st

U do dance- bs - sectec- strike- Evic

If u don’t have fw before that u loose dmg

[warm marlin]

do strike and skip the premed backstab if you dont have fw

its a 0.5% gain to bs assuming like 100% fw uptime

[potent summit]

Yes you lose 1 stack of macabre. But standing there wasting time is more of a loss

Just strike

Like he said

[dusky hatch]

Hello gents. I currently play assas in m+ and I dont mind it. Is it worth trying to pick up sub? I mean is it that more efficient / better ?

[crystal oasis]

Does Sub have any interaction with Magnet, ie do we only use during dance or something etc?

[maiden oar]

dummy sim likes to do this for non opener cd windows, should i be doing this instead of the opener order also? theyre also doing the single target black powder thing to make sure coup ends up in cds as the finisher right after shadow blades - unsure if thats a prereq for doing it this way or not

[lucid jackal]

I hope u are aware every single spec in the game has "dead talents" in a season

Sometimes all it takes is a good tier set, a random trinket or synergy to turn a talent from a joke, to core

[iron obsidian]

my massive sub gamers

how big of a damage loss is it by using CB with my first SecTech?

[lucid jackal]

like 1%

[iron obsidian]

so not too big?

[lucid jackal]

Depends how you define it

[potent summit]

I’m aware of that. It just feels like sub has many of them compared to assa for example

[lucid jackal]

Some mythic upgrades are 1% and I'd say they are pretty big

[jaunty heath]

!1% is big

[lucid jackal]

Up to u

[iron obsidian]

aight thanks gamers

[jaunty heath]

more is i dont understand this new macabre meta. How big is the backstab and shadowblades delay

[lucid jackal]

Sin doesn't really have dead talents because they have "aoe talents" and "st talents"

its very binary

And even still theres some useless stuff

[potent summit]

What about Nado and Goremaw? I think they are out of place. Rest I guess you are right

[vale pine]

without the new tier set its ~0.3%
with the 4p of the new tier set its ~1%

[lucid jackal]

Yeah nado stinks and goremaws doesnt really fit with current sub

[iron obsidian]

thanks my massive sub gamer

[lucid jackal]

Would be nice to have less totally shit talents but at the same time I don't really envy the fact that sin has a full on "Aoe build"

[vale pine]

assassination has less dead talents because many of their talents got reworked, something that did not happen on subtlety so far

[iron obsidian]

^

[potent summit]

True it would be fun if they just delete Nado and powder 😂😂

[vale pine]

not happen is harsh, it happened

but not to the same degree

e.g. to just look over the last patches

assassiantion had subterfuge adjusted to work on them, which did not happen for subtlety

but both got some adjustments in other talents

[iron obsidian]

tho wouldnt having a subterfuge like that kinda ruin the spec abit

[vale pine]

we got the first dance reworked

which is tbh a good idea

but

[iron obsidian]

well not ruin per say

[vale pine]

the 6 sec timer is a absolutely bad addition

[iron obsidian]

but make it feel slower

[potent summit]

Should be more like 2-3 secs

[vale pine]

there should be no timer

[lucid jackal]

[vale pine]

the timer does not even start when you are able to stealth

its based on a diffrent event

so its extremely convolluted

[potent summit]

Ya true.

[alpine wraith]

i wish first dance was triggered by using x finishers or by a button instead of just stealth things

[vale pine]

it is also for me hard to understand the reasoning behind the timer

[potent summit]

I’m still convinced Banshees blight as a talent would be Giga

[vale pine]

because the dev team is well aware that restealth mechanics are annoying for the player

so i can't rly follow how you design a talent which has the downsides of restealth

but makes it even worse

to give them ideas

iron wirse is a bit too good, if they want to add a timer add one to that talent

tfd can be easy controled by just altering the +dance benefits, tho subtlety does not look outstandingly strong in m+ so i don't think it is a problem

[potent summit]

Well iron wire won’t be taken that often, cause if the dmg downsides. You lose a dmg talent

But sub needs a buff after the flat buff to assa

For no good reason

ST I understand

[lucid jackal]

Assa was pretty shit in raid thats why it got buffed

[potent summit]

But the 3% overall was kinda well

[tribal blade]

well my ISP got back to me

[lucid jackal]

all 3 specs are getting played by rogues pushing keys rn

[tribal blade]

they know everyone in HK can't access wow, and they tried getting in contact with blizz to fix it but they got no reply

so we have to try to contact blizz ourselves to fix this

this is madness

[iron obsidian]

i personally think it shoulda gotten the 3% buff

[potent summit]

I feel like it’s busted in m+ compared to sub for minimum effort

[iron obsidian]

but not the extra 2% due to the mutilate and ambush buff

where we just take VV and TTB now

[lucid jackal]

Sin is probably the hardest key spec of the 3

wdym lo

[potent summit]

It isn’t by far not 😂😂

But well that’s personal preference i guess

[vale pine]

it was statistically about as good as subtlety

[lucid jackal]

I dont give a fuck about statistics

[vale pine]

and it is now statistically better than subtelty

[lucid jackal]

I care about the actual fights

NObody whos actually evaluating raid value is looking at stats

[vale pine]

tuning usually looks at statistics ^^

[lucid jackal]

Raid stats would say "Play outlaw on mugzee"

But nobody who is playing world of warcraft raiding is saying "Yeah Outlaw looks good on mugzee"

[vale pine]

raid statistics put assassiantion over outlaw on mugzee

[lucid jackal]

Brother

[vale pine]

you disagree with assassiantion?

on the fight

[lucid jackal]

Okay

[potent summit]

I played a prio 11 yesterday 2 times. With sub and with assa. Sub did a good 3,2 mil overall. Assa 4mil. And assa feels like you don’t even have to play perfect to reach that.

[lucid jackal]

I'm not about to have a debate about how worthless WCL is at 3:20am

[potent summit]

And before the buffs assa was just fine. Maybe just ST buff would have been enough

[vale pine]

haha

[lucid jackal]

Ur also doing 1m st

[vale pine]

i am just saying, outlaw is now behind on most fights

so the argument of outlaw being statistically better even tho its bad on a fight is not as good anymore

[potent summit]

More like 1,5/1,6 and as sub 2/2,1

[lucid jackal]

fuu I'm begging you to stop using the WCL statistics page

[vale pine]

XD

i am not making a argument around it being accurate

[lucid jackal]

Then why are u referencing it

[vale pine]

because your argument was based on a false promise

[potent summit]

The funny thing is even whispyr was wondering about the buffs

[vale pine]

fight specifics will always matter

[potent summit]

Cause they came out of nowhere

[lucid jackal]

wcl stats page doesnt tell you anything about that

WCL stats page doesn't tell u that SIn is valuable on mugzee

[vale pine]

and outlaw will, for that reason, be the worse picks on several fights

but sub and sin both ended up being quite mediocre on st output

yet only one was buffed

[lucid jackal]

itll get buffs just like rogue got all of nerubar palace

[vale pine]

the main argument is that fight timings fit better for sub or specifics you can bring, but for every fight this isn't true

the argument that sin was noticable worse is mood

[lucid jackal]

I mean Sin is literally a carry spec on mugzee for example when it comes to boss damage

having "medicore st" again

doesnt tell u the full story

[vale pine]

well you just make an argument

against the sin buff

[lucid jackal]

What are u talking about

[vale pine]

maybe i missunderstand

carry spec = needs to get carried by others

or

is carrying others

?

[lucid jackal]

Assassination rogue is top 5 boss damage specs on mugzee

You will never find this information on WCL

[rugged condor]

With the buffs i think sin will be the predominant spec for bandit as well

[clever delta]

It's looking rough, asaa overtake on every boss till bandit and than it's mugzee again 😄

[vale pine]

it was top boss damage before the buffs

[lucid jackal]

Okay I'm going to bed

[vale pine]

so not sure i understand where you are going

[lucid jackal]

I'm getting cancer

goodnight

[vale pine]

goodnight

but just to be clear, you made the assessment that assassination needed a buff

[lucid jackal]

NOWHERE DID I SAY THIS

[clever delta]

Man are you suppose to be sleeping

[jaunty heath]

You just said sin was shit in raid

Like 10 messages ago

Sorry guy

[vale pine]

ForeverGuy: Assa was pretty shit in raid thats why it got buffed

[wild hornet]

I think outlaw needs a buff

Theyre deadge

[lucid jackal]

Assa didn't need a buff

But it was shit

thats why it got buffed

Sin did a job

It did execute extremely well, a raid encounter in this raid is defined almost entierly by execute

This spec SHOULDNT have gotten buffed

[novel plaza]

isnt outlaw the top spec for M+?

[lucid jackal]

But it did, because on most fights, its kinda ass

[wild hornet]

If blade had uncapped aoe yes

[lucid jackal]

This is why the WCL stats page is stupid

[vale pine]

i am not following tbh, maybe its too early

[jaunty heath]

I don’t think there’s a relevant fight where subs nieche matters and without that nieche sin wasn’t behind sub

[vale pine]

but if a spec did not need a buff

and gets a buff

[jaunty heath]

none if this makes sense

[vale pine]

how is it shit in raid?

[lucid jackal]

Because on every other fight than mugzee it was bad

[jaunty heath]

It was not tho

[lucid jackal]

Okay

[vale pine]

also why is it diffrent to subtlety, which again if we look at statistics is very much in line with assasisnation

[jaunty heath]

Where are you pulling that from

[lucid jackal]

Okay

[wild hornet]

I think we should just nuke assa down into aug tier

[jaunty heath]

Sub was bound to be better for 2-3 weeks we knew this

[plush roost]

This is some good popcorn debate

[jaunty heath]

You knew this

But with gear sin wasn’t shit?

[wild hornet]

[potent summit]

Like I said assa didn’t need a buff. Also in m+ it’s now busted with it.

[lucid jackal]

Maybe thats it

[plush roost]

Eh busted is a stretch, UH dk does more ST and has bigger burst windows, now thats busted

[lucid jackal]

Its all the sin gear scaling coming into play

[jaunty heath]

I wouldn’t call it scaling but

[void ocean]

isnt like assa st in m+ still bad?

[jaunty heath]

Having a bis trinket from last tier really helps week 1-2

[vale pine]

XD ye the 5% buff gear scaling

[potent summit]

True but compared to sub with low effort do tons of dmg is kinda meh

[plush roost]

Sub is pretty low effort now

[potent summit]

It’s okayish and only shit compared to sub

[vale pine]

[wild hornet]

You mean the rng spec that has a few hundred mil pack crit once in a few business days

[vale pine]

i mean, just crit

[jaunty heath]

Udk is what it’s been a lot of times

An mdi spec

[potent summit]

Kinda think assa is more low effort

[wild hornet]

Shit youre right

Why havent i thought of just critting every spell

[jaunty heath]

whoops

Sorry

Forgot it’s banned here

[teal coral]

[potent summit]

Btw I’m playing assa now

[teal coral]

PACK IT UP BLUE ARMIN

YOURE GOING AWAY FOR A LONG TIME

[jaunty heath]

Pls sir

I beg sir

[plush roost]

!!! He had a family

Dont do this to him

[clever delta]

Whispyr what spec i play tonight

Any ass gaming

[brisk onyx]

I don’t know what you are arguing about. To me, all 3 specs are rogues. Any one of them getting a buff is exciting. I will never say that a certain spec does not need a buff.

[jaunty heath]

Outlaws aren’t rogues

2 specs are rogues

[vale pine]

think you could have put some more emotes in that message

[plush roost]

Boy we sure are here to shitstir today aren't we

[potent summit]

We played assa last season would have been fun that sub gets some spotlight

Im fine with assa. I was just saying. Would have been nice to be on parse

[teal coral]

minor drug possession charge, he's going into the slammer for 25 years with good behavior and then will be reintroduced to a society he no longer recognizes that will ostracize him for being a ex-con and he will live the rest of his life sad and alone as the rehabilitation that the prison system is supposed to provide instead ravages his future to an irreparable extent

sorry don't make the rules just enforce them

[teal coral]

double it and give it to the next person yep

will keep in mind next time

[potent summit]

Back to what I wanted to say about all this stuff. Rework some sub talents/spells give this spec some love. That’s all I wanted to say

[brisk onyx]

[solar geode]

the Subtlety rogue fandom is dying
share if you're a sub

[rugged condor]

Remove goremaws bite and give us a new talent

Could be fun

[brisk onyx]

[vale pine]

most people learned subtlety, it will be a bit before people switch

[potent summit]

Banshees Blight. Now! Let’s demonstrate on Ions Doorstep

And don’t call it banshees blight just do it as new lingering shadow or goremaws

[maiden oar]

is it ever a good idea to black powder in st to move coup into flag / blades still? and if yes is it 20s or less on flag cd or a different threshold?

[vale pine]

we suggested the use of sylvanas dagger effect as a talent

[brisk onyx]

PLEASE

[vale pine]

it wasn't added because of concerns about giving subtlety some form of execute

assassiantion is the only rogue spec which is allowed to have execute from what we know

[plush roost]

Yeah specs wouldn't wanna step on eachothers toes

Cough

[potent summit]

Take away the execute and it is still nice

[rugged condor]

Nimble flurry and blade flurry lol

[vale pine]

i mean yes, df added so many things especially from subtlety now to the other 2

[plush roost]

Das da joke

[vale pine]

but also all 3 specs now have blade flurry

you can discuss implementation details

[potent summit]

I don’t see where the problem would be to have a soft execute

Just tune it to not make it stronger compared to assa

[vale pine]

because assassiantions blade flurry is stronger than the other BF variants

by design, tuning ofc can differ

[worn ivy]

@vale pine brother in your !sheet in dungeon silence your talent tree is lilbit sus or am i trippin ?

[potent summit]

I think blizz just doesn’t want to tune the talents cause it would be too much work

[vale pine]

its not sus

[brisk onyx]

In the beginning, outlaw (combat) was the only spec that was allowed to cleave, then came spatter, and then nimble.

So

[vale pine]

the first dance is not extremely well estimated

so you don't get resets in dungeon slice

[worn ivy]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ctKn3PxXKMMTvoBfpMkQ6g @vale pine ?

[vale pine]

so the question becomes, how strong is the first dance

[potent summit]

Having banshees blight would push our aoe aswell but we would be still capped

[worn ivy]

Do i play this talents or ?

First danc with eye if kezan is kinda meh

[vale pine]

let me finish my line of explenation

[potent summit]

The first dance is giga but with the restrictions it’s kinda troll sometimes

[vale pine]

basically, the problem this build runs in

is it can't easily pick up the first dance

because each of the talents picked work well together

[potent summit]

First dance should reset with vanish for example

[vale pine]

so if you play the first dance

the regular build is better

if you don't

the above is rly good

only marginal worse on single target

and better on each target count above

[worn ivy]

Im at phone so im not sure if i see correctly but u play 2x finality + darkbrew no ? @vale pine

[potent summit]

1x final no dark brew

[vale pine]

you mean the first dance?

you would play this if you want dark brew and tfd

[worn ivy]

Canu check talents on this sim ? @vale pine https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ctKn3PxXKMMTvoBfpMkQ6g

[vale pine]

but tfd is in favor of dark brew

[unreal solstice]

can someone hit the weakaura ! im not certain what it is ❤️

[potent summit]

Is dark brew worth it right now ?

[vale pine]

what do you mean check????

[potent summit]

Ah k

[vale pine]

its just

[molten citrus]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[vale pine]

if you don't play the first dance

[worn ivy]

Ohh ok i got it now

[vale pine]

dark brew is ahead

[worn ivy]

I will test when i go home

[vale pine]

if you want a comparison

Diffrence - Rotten/brew tfd:
Single Target -0.8%
Three Targets +1.7%
Five Targets -0.2%
Eight Targets -0.8%
Dungeon Slice -1.2%

^ this has simulations

comparing multiple talent strings

[worn ivy]

This will be better in ml and cinderbrew for sure imo

Wait we have less symbols with this build

How its gonna be on st

Rotation wise

[vale pine]

you use tornado also on single target

which is in part why tornado is relevant

[worn ivy]

Hmm like back in sl

Tornado st

You drop %5 for tornado

[void ocean]

wait, what r we cookin rn

[worn ivy]

Fuu is genius i might play this on 16 cinder or ml will try it tbh

Tank needs to play arround you with this build btw adds into boss

For more prio value

Btw @vale pine instad if perforate vains can u not go left side on this tree

I mean also f tfd just go wep master or

[hallow sigil]

Wait as I'm shuriken tornado? And what's this about playing brew I'd you don't play first dance?

I'm finding few opportunities where first dance actually comes into play especially in weekly 10s to 12s. Is there a different build that sacs 0.2% ST for better DMG everywhere else then?

[worn ivy]

I just double check actually u forced to play perforate vains

[vale pine]

it is basically a consequence of the last apl updates we did, it made tornado for brew competitive

[hallow sigil]

Can you share this build that you wanna try?

I really wanna try that

Or is it pinned and I didn't check

[vale pine]

CUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM2mBAAAAAgZZMWmGzgHYmxYmZmxMzMMmthxYbbmZMzMjBjlZbAAAAYGMAGzmhBGYW0CtYDG

[unreal solstice]

I thought to ask when flag was closer to 15 seconds on cd I'm presuming I would hold and save up the SD charge for when flag and shadow blades are up?

[hallow sigil]

Correct

[unreal solstice]

is it 3 or 4 secret techniques on average per big cooldown window?

[hallow sigil]

Ty I'll have a look when I'm home. Currently on phone at work

[vale pine]

dark brew mostly became relevant because of the apl updates we did

we still look into finding some more small improvements

#1065728795455266888 message

[hallow sigil]

That should still theoretically mean that it's an improvement for normal play right?

[vale pine]

yes

i did try to document it in a understandable way

[hallow sigil]

Ah I see. So don't tornado during dance. What's the find weakness breakpoint for? Sry I'm really bad at reading the apl code

And other than that everything else I assume is played normally

Excited to try this

Sin is now cooking in m+ but its such a sleeper spec on ST with how slow it is

[vale pine]

its more or less a small optimization

its a bit controversial

but you can essentially replace the target values we use for aoe atm

[worn ivy]

You can also play this build without tornado or ? @vale pine

[vale pine]

with amounts of active find weaknesses

[vale pine]

yes, but tornado is actually better in the setup

[hallow sigil]

Ah so 5+ weaknesses you'd powder? Or is it with 8+ mobs but 5+ weaknesses I'd still evis?

I assume the latter

[vale pine]

yes

5+ find weaknesses out, you would bp

[hallow sigil]

I assumed incorrectly

[vale pine]

so technically rotten during dance would also become 5+

well

6+

5 seems to be whatever

[hallow sigil]

I was already thinking, but always forgetting, to fok with rotten in dance

For many weaknesses up

[vale pine]

#1065728795455266888 message

which is what this change did

[hallow sigil]

So you'd BP on 6+ weaknesses, but still use cut the grass with any target count right?

[vale pine]

cut the grass

lol

nice name for

you will always use it

reguardless of target count

similar, you will use strike in dance instead of storm

outside of the one storm for find weakness from rotten

[hallow sigil]

Sweet

[devout quarry]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[snow ibex]

Is sub still more optimal than assas righht now?

[lucid jackal]

All 3 rogue specs are seeing play rn in keys

[dim stream]

hey guys, i need a macro to use md or trick on tank without using focus target macro
any suggestions?

[viral phoenix]

mouseover macro

[dim stream]

i wanna put tank's name on my trick macro,

is there anyway to do that easly

every dg tank's name will change

[midnight folio]

there s party position 1 modifier for leader

[viral phoenix]

yeah not role based tho right

[lucid jackal]

"can you give lead to tank plz"

[dim stream]

i am actualy looking a macro to set it's name to my other macro which is for trick

[lucid jackal]

@party1

[worn ivy]

!tricks

[wicked jolt]

Smart tricks WA on tank, this require the following macro:

/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 1
/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 0

[dim stream]

that is the only way 😄

[viral phoenix]

#showtooltip Tricks of The Trade
/cast [@mouseover,harm,nodead][@Gigason] Tricks of The Trade

I use this so I can either mouseover if I forget or just copy paste the tanks name and forget about it

with so tricky you could straight up manual cast it on your target ICANT

[worn ivy]

I would never suggest mouseover for tricks esp in m+

[viral phoenix]

why?

[dim stream]

how it is working?

[worn ivy]

Use wa

Read

!tricks

[wicked jolt]

Smart tricks WA on tank, this require the following macro:

/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 1
/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 0

[vale pine]

there is no established meta, so play what you like

[abstract basalt]

Hi, I’m a rogue beginner I start the game I’ve just reach lvl 80 yesterday, someone can help me to have the good rotations and open in mono and multi target pls ? (I’m sorry if my English isn’t realy good I’m training ^^’)

[rocky lava]

#subtlety-faq

[hollow spear]

Are you guys sending CB on your first Sectec in +10s? I feel like - no matter the comp - by the time I arrive at my 2nd CB, there's a lousy 3 mobs standing, even in big pulls 😄

[brittle echo]

do we reapply rupture during dance? or let rupture fall off and rupture after? or refresh rupture before dancing regardless of pandemic?

[lost kite]

You refresh and apply ruptures on downtime of cds

But on pull dont delay cds for ruptures just send 1 rupture after you flag to get the mastery stacking before blades etc

[brittle echo]

what if i know rupture will drop off mid cds, AND rupture is not yet in pandemic window, should i rupture regardless so it never drops off? or just let rupture drop off and reapply after

[lost kite]

Yeah i mean its the whole point of applying and refreshing in downtime

But in any case i normally always use 1 rupture just after flag

[marble ledge]

Does anyone have a First Dance weak aura? I'm tryna let my pugs know I need like 1 more second before that boss pull lmao

[gritty gorge]

So is this comparing the „standard“ M+ Build to the „new“ m+ Build with brew and tornado?

[vale pine]

yes

[hallow sigil]

Seems somewhat worth

[worn ivy]

How it does this build looks with deathstalker btw ? @vale pine

[vale pine]

deathstalker looks bad in general

not recommended to play

the tier set is just way better for trickster

[alpine wraith]

i did a showcase of deathstalker aoe

it is not enjoyable

[glass jasper]

All i want in life is for shiv to have shorter cd, why do hunters get enrage dispel on short cd and ours is on a 400 year cd

[vale pine]

also just to be clear, dungeons might be diffrent

and tfd as well as pulls might make one specific talent setup better

so the talent build is something to test

[glass jasper]

I feel like TFD looses alot of it's value in most pugs since everyone seems to love chain-pulling

So you basically have it up only when vanish CD is ready

So I'm thinking of dropping it for m+ actually

[gritty gorge]

It should be good for dungeons with a lot of big pulls like cinderbrew, PSF or flood, right? In Theater or Workshop the tfd build should be better?!

[void ocean]

so what would be a burst rotation with nado, Im guessing flag+rupture into SoD+SD+Blades+trink+nado?

[next pulsar]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fallow nimbus]

Nado first because it's on the gcd

Flag rup nado rest pump

[glass jasper]

Do we have a export for the nado build somewhere?

[alpine wraith]

you dont use tornado with cds

you use it to get cdr after cds

[wicked urchin]

getting into 12s is pain

[void ocean]

wait, what

[upper rock]

yo idk maybe stupid question, but could it be worth use a mace in offhand? i just dropped the gallywix mace on hc and it actually sims higher than my offhand dagger

[glass jasper]

I feel as a rogue it's a pain even getting into 10s

[wild vine]

no offhand is never worth

to be anything but a dagger

unless the ilvl diff is ginormous (which it shouldnt be?)

link the sim for people to check

[wicked urchin]

i'm 2700 664 rn so 10s feel fine but

i didn't play do keys for a week so now everyone in my guild just does 13s in their clique

hate this place

[hollow spear]

I always love reading through the last hours of sub chat when I get a chance in the morning

[shadow lance]

It is if you didn't climb rio week 1

[hollow spear]

I guess it was round 15 of Guy vs. everyone else when it comes to Sin vs. Sub 😂

[shadow lance]

Even if I did, I barely go into 13

[hollow spear]

I 100% agree with you btw, fuu

[shadow lance]

And I'm 3k+

[hollow spear]

Luckily my guild is full of raid andies

Who only do +10

[shadow lance]

Same on my side

[hollow spear]

Just like myself

[shadow lance]

So easy to fill the vault after spending a week depleting or playing queue simulator

With the goats player like you are

[sly shore]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[glass jasper]

They should give us the possibility to have AI tanks for m+

I'd rather play with the follower dungeon tanks in 10s than the clowntanks that are queueing 10s

[wild vine]

just do 10 13's

personally see more of a diff on the healer-side

[haughty rose]

is there any recommended change in playstyle with 4 set bonus?

[hollow spear]

Nope

@vale pine seems like Sin has caught up with Sub in ST, if Sprocket is to be believed

[vale pine]

you can compare

2 weeks vs. 1 day

single targte was a problem for both sin and sub

i did mention it earlier, but not everyone agrees with me on it

[fallen crescent]

Does anyone know the %chance of rolling a tert?

[hollow spear]

With "not everyone" you mean Guy, right?

He's been accusing everyone of "moving the goalpoast" the last days, even though it's actually him 😄

First he said "sims don't matter" and pointed to WCL to show reality. Now he says that WCL doesn't matter and that it's obvious that Sub is just better for most fights.

[vale pine]

haha yes

but then again, it is not a strict "this or that" discussion

it is nouanced

[hollow spear]

I don't disagree that Sub's kit is better for some fights, but imo Sin has now overtaken Sub on ST in "actual fights"

If that actually matters is a completely different argument

[vale pine]

i am happy if subtlety is better, and if it is

you should statistically see it

you can't dismiss statistics and simulations

[hollow spear]

Sin is definitely better on Cauldron, already was before the patch

[vale pine]

because it ends with no facts to back up your arguments

thats my opinion

[hollow spear]

Well, fuu

[vale pine]

how you use the data ofc matters, this is what is easy to discuss

[hollow spear]

I completely agree

You cannot just disregard statistics and say "it's obvious that X and Y is better", despite them telling a different story 😄

[vale pine]

i rather wait for 1-2 weeks and then have a meaningful discussion

[hollow spear]

I agree though that, despite Sin performing on par with Sub on Rik, Sub is most definitely the better spec on that fight

[vale pine]

because with 1 or 2 days of data

its hard to make a statement

[hollow spear]

True

[vale pine]

cooldown alignment is a big topic

and ofc niches

[hollow spear]

That will change throughout the next patches

[vale pine]

e.g. on a fight execute is extended or important especially if "holding dps" matters

assassianation was and sitll is the better choice

[hollow spear]

If a fight lasts 4:30, Sub will suck and Sin will shine. If it lasts 5:00, it's the other way round 😄

[vale pine]

on figths sub cooldowns align

or burst aoe for adds matters

sub can shine

but i don't know if i would want to argue general balance

based on these specific fights

[hollow spear]

Sin actually outperforms Sub on Vexie for boss damage

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/first-time-debbie-smith-brayden-holt-wentworth-is-this-your-first-gif-22815379

[hollow spear]

Nah, third more likely

[vale pine]

because for me, balance is not "who is best on the endboss"

[lilac stag]

Sub for Rik. Maybe OAB.

The rest don’t matter

[hollow spear]

I would say definitely OAB

At least for now

[lilac stag]

by the time most get there likely won’t matter

[vale pine]

i mean

isn't it this tier

you could potentially just sit rogue

[lilac stag]

yep

depends on your atrophic take

[spark plover]

they said they could bring a boost on the rwf ; so you can play whatever

[vale pine]

probably not wrong

the last boss was a dissapointment

[hollow spear]

fuu is now banned from Max's chat forever

[lilac stag]

if you enjoy the spec, play it. If you enjoy mix maxing rogue, play the best spec for the boss

It’s that simple

[vale pine]

the eu base was very loud about it

[clear osprey]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

i did not follow the entire drama

[lilac stag]

About what?

[hollow spear]

About the last boss being disappointing

[lilac stag]

dumb ass preach riled up and pissy

[hollow spear]

Some used it as an excuse for Echo's loss

[vale pine]

last boss being dissapointing and making the race less exciting

i did not follow it much

but i know preach made a big video about it

[hollow spear]

I think that Echo would have lost even with double the pulls

[vale pine]

and max apperently reacted to it too

[lilac stag]

they tried something new, no boss journal. They went to soft on tuning.

[vale pine]

but its likely the same old discussion

[tribal blade]

i think it had absolutely nothing to do with echo losing, but i agree the end boss is a disappointment

they had the opportunity to do something cool with the secret phase

[hollow spear]

Preach had a lot of opinion with little facts, but what's new haha

[vale pine]

Max will likely say they just played better and that eu just don't like losing and needs to cope with it

[spark plover]

not even the secret phase

[lilac stag]

Liquid figuring out the entire fight was fun to watch without the journal. The mechanics just didn’t hit hard enough.

[spark plover]

it is buggy af

[tribal blade]

the preach video was hard to listen to

his incredible bias was kinda weird

[lilac stag]

he’s such a little bitch in that video

[vale pine]

And EU peeps will find reasons why it was dissapointing, why reset mattered, etc.

[hollow spear]

But in the end, all players in RWF have massive egos. Doesn't matter if they're in Echo or Liquid.

[keen dome]

I am sad Mythic didn't go full pacific rim with gallywix

[vale pine]

it is a very one sided discussion on both sides, always was

[lilac stag]

No one likes losing

Echo should have killed mugzee faster

[keen dome]

I think Liquid just played better the whole tier though. Even with all their technical issues.

[mint swift]

Who preach or max?

[lilac stag]

preach

[tribal blade]

NA has the argument that liquid lost many hours of prog due to ddos and power outage

[hollow spear]

They both are

Kinda

[mint swift]

Ah KK

[hollow spear]

haha

[vale pine]

my point

[tribal blade]

and still won

[vale pine]

both don't want to give the other sites the benefit

[keen dome]

Ye

[mint swift]

Tbh I just want one tier where a guild comes out of fucking nowhere and gets world first
And I don’t mean quality assurance

[vale pine]

but in the end the viewer was the loser

[keen dome]

Haha same, Ven

[hollow spear]

Yeah, I kinda missed the kill

[keen dome]

Even funnier if it's some werid pug group

[vale pine]

because we had no close race on the last fight

the climax of the tier was meh

[tribal blade]

i don't think it's possible tbh

[spark plover]

talking about ddos ; recently blizzard missed so much line on their patch , I think it is not a third party killing their own server

[hollow spear]

iGestalt being the usual pug hype-man haha

[mint swift]

A man can dream

[mint swift]

He is just the purple guy

[vale pine]

its basically impossible

[mint swift]

Ik hence what I said

[tribal blade]

bro the entire city i live in (hong kong) is unable to connect to any blizz games since the ddos

[keen dome]

It's my niche, haha

[tribal blade]

wihtout a vpn

it's madness

[vale pine]

method is the closest

but method did take noticable longer on e.g. the last fight

[mint swift]

Oh I didn’t know you lived in Hong Kong

[hollow spear]

they were closer last tier

[mint swift]

How’s it like there

[vale pine]

similarly long than limit

[keen dome]

I agree with this. It was pretty mid. No comedy end-boss giant mech showdown

[tribal blade]

kinda shitty right now because i can't connect to wow without a vpn haha

but it's an interesting place, very crowded

[hollow spear]

hot take: Cauldron should have been the last boss

[mint swift]

I mean sure it’s fitting that the bodyguard is harder than the final boss
But gameplay wise nah

[tribal blade]

most expensive real estate in the world

[spark plover]

I don't think there is any ddos while a wb get pull on my server or there is more than 10 people on bandit fight

[vale pine]

I think this is the hardest thing to decide

[spark plover]

and its laggy as hell

[mint swift]

Fair tbh
And this ain’t directed at you
A lot of people hate their own country
But the Uk is aight, can be shit

[vale pine]

because soo much went wrong this tier

[mint swift]

Have to sell my entire life to buy a home

[vale pine]

mugzee was mostly

[keen dome]

Yeah, that's true, Fuu.

[tribal blade]

no offense taken 😉

[vale pine]

about who got the least bugs

[keen dome]

Yeah

[lilac stag]

@tribal blade we did a 10 priory with one of the liquid raiders tanking on an alt druid. Hahah 23 deaths (from their pull size) and still times it. Our 4 person guild group wasn’t prepared for mdi pulls.

[vale pine]

also nerfs did typically come to benefitial times for NA

[mint swift]

What were the mugger bugs again

[hollow spear]

I grew tired of Mugzee quite quickly

[tribal blade]

LOL sounds about right

[vale pine]

NA had issues with a downtime due to power and ddos issues

[hollow spear]

which is probably why I missed the Gally kill

[lilac stag]

It was fun but holy moly

[vale pine]

and NA will always claim that the other region is actually in an advantage because they need to figure the fight out

[tribal blade]

reminds me of naohw doing a triple angel pull before the last boss of spires with a pug group

[vale pine]

and can peak at what limit is doing

so there is no fair discussion about the topic

even if limit played worse

[keen dome]

That's true, yeah. There's too many other factors

[vale pine]

the earlier reset and faster time to get to the end boss

gave a noticable advantage

[hollow spear]

I think Echo pissed away a potential win on OAB and Mugzee

[vale pine]

and saying this is also controbersial somehow

[hollow spear]

They would have had to be faster on those

[tribal blade]

all i know is i'm too stupid to have my own educated opinion on this matter

[hollow spear]

Should have been actually

[tribal blade]

i'm just happy for whoever wins

[vale pine]

I think of it like in league of legends

[hollow spear]

I am just hatewatching kush :^)

[honest void]

Liquid is a stronger org financial than Echo too afaik

Many factors indeed

[keen dome]

this is the best attitude to it haha

[vale pine]

the best worlds is when we get the most amount of close games

[tribal blade]

HELL yeah

[vale pine]

not when one team stomps everyone 3-0

[honest void]

All raids should be Sepulcher

[keen dome]

haha

[honest void]

All bosses should be halondrous

[hollow spear]

talking about financially strong orgs, have y'all heard of the most recent T1 drama in LoL?

[vale pine]

yes, you could say they swim in money while echo barely survives check to check

[mint swift]

Actually

thought about this

the only feasable way this would happen

is maybe MAYBE a mid patch raid

So smth like crucable

[hollow spear]

yo Ven, did you actually trade your 4 buttons on Sin for 2 buttons on BM?

[lilac stag]

Are we faulting a team for growing their business better?

[keen dome]

I still think it'd be really unlikely, as much as I'd like it, because so many of the best players are in these specific guilds

[mint swift]

Ok funny story

[keen dome]

And you'd effectively need a ton of very talented people to spring up, band together, organize and then pull together for it

[honest void]

It's more an observation

[mint swift]

BM rn runs a no CD build
and it added an extra button, giving us like, 5

And people were like

AAAA IT'S TOO MANY BUTTONS

XD

[hollow spear]

unironically?

[mint swift]

Some people yea

[hollow spear]

holy

[tribal blade]

that's fucking hilarious

[honest void]

TL is a stronger brand than echo is at the end of the day

[mint swift]

It wasn't even afully new button

[vale pine]

Neither, just bringing more details in the discussion

[tribal blade]

what a first world problem for BM

[mint swift]

It just replaced a CD

[lilac stag]

Sure. Echo could have taken Saudi money and didn’t.

[mint swift]

Tbf, season 1 it was such a nothing button

[vale pine]

i don't know how important financial success is

[honest void]

Idk about alzat tbf

[vale pine]

it seems to me not related to in game success

[honest void]

My echo lore doesn't run too deep

[mint swift]

And i was also annoyed about it but
Yknow that's more of an autism thing
I didn't mind the change, but the idea of changing is something that makes me, idk, not uspet but i can't think of the word
Like i enjoy doing the same things a lot

[vale pine]

a lot of what makes a team succeed or fail is how well its managed

[mint swift]

Getting into a routine

[vale pine]

as well as how high the human error is

[mint swift]

But the change itself is not even that bad

Like i didn't like the idea and i started playing it and was like

"Oh this is completly fine lmao"

[keen dome]

It's an interesting thing 'cos the rwf is unofficial yet official, and also unimportant to most players. it's almost a different game in places. And yet, it's such a focal point of discussion haha

[vale pine]

we watch the race because its played by humans, don't think we would watch humans try to beat ai on it

[lilac stag]

How many raiders go from echo to liquid and vise versa. The transfer window def goes mostly one direction.

[keen dome]

Ye!

[vale pine]

limit can buy out raiders, if thats the argument

echo can't

[honest void]

They do from what I've heard

[vale pine]

yes

because they can

[lilac stag]

You said you don’t know how much financials matter. That would suggest it matters.

[mint swift]

Also
Again on this
I was thinking of playing Sub this tier, and semi regret not doing it but like

[vale pine]

fainess is not the top priority of the wfr

[mint swift]

In the end i think BM was a better choice this tier in particular

[honest void]

Tbf if ur entire life for a month is going to be balls deep in wow

[mint swift]

Cause Sub seems really fun rn

[honest void]

Might as well get some money

[keen dome]

Sub is always very fun (except when it isn't)

[lilac stag]

sneak.lua proved that.

[mint swift]

But BM is like:
ranged (anti-melee season it seems)
Easy to do a ton of mechanics in raid, which helps when the overall skill of the raid is lower
Easy to play
Fun to play
And i enjoy the class fantasy
Plus collecting pets is fun

[keen dome]

I always invite a rogue or two to my pugs. This season, so far, it's primarily been Sub rerollers.

[vale pine]

both teams had their share of exploitations

[mint swift]

Well
I disagree!

I just invite what i think is good

[vale pine]

its like

[mint swift]

Like outlaw, sub, assa

All seem good this season

[vale pine]

we can idealize the entire thing

[honest void]

Exploit early, exploit often

[mint swift]

cough cough worgen explot

THIS IS A JOKE

[lilac stag]

The blatantly acting like you’re doing the mechanic is what killed me.

[vale pine]

but both teams will abuse their position when they can

to win

[mint swift]

Bro what if blizzard did the shitiest thing ever

"To finally beat xal, you need the combined force of echo and liquid"

[keen dome]

Hahaha

[mint swift]

40 man mythic raid XD

[vale pine]

and as mentioned earlier

discussions will always be

liquid will say they played better

[mint swift]

Btw how far behind is DS in ST and AoE

[lilac stag]

I hope next tier they keep the dungeon journal dark and just up the difficultly

[vale pine]

echo will too

[honest void]

As long as it's an entertaining race idc one way or another what they do

Sadly this one wasn't

[mint swift]

cause i remember having a discussion with charraed as he said it was dead
And it made me realise
a dead hero tree is so much diffrent from spec to spec

[vale pine]

even if many times who played better was not the only deciding factor

[hollow spear]

I don't have any emotional investment in the whole thing

[spark plover]

more you know about rwf, more you hate