subtlety

[edgy zenith]

yeah, but even in the dance windows, it's better than pressing a BP for 1.5M to have like 6-8 ruptures ticking during a dance window

[sour forum]

and ML actually

[paper iron]

ML is weird

sub melts first boss and some part of the dungeon

but assa does giga great on other parts

[tribal blade]

i might just try a key like priory or cinderbrew not spreading rupture much except before cds

and see if overall is better

although i feel like the solution is literally respec sin

[edgy zenith]

really? I think it 's actually cooking in mass AoE still. You easily break like 15M on big pulls, you aren't getting gapped THAT hard by other specs at that amount

[tribal blade]

and do big aoe dam in every pull no matter what

[green pivot]

is dungeon slice sim accurate?

[sour forum]

thing with assa is, u need no CDS to do well in trash

[edgy zenith]

I mean Sin is probably better in the massive pull dungeons

[sour forum]

sub, u need to pull around its cds

[tribal blade]

the big issue is the drop off after cds is really big

you have other specs bursting for the same amount or higher and then able to maintain more dam than sub in their downtime

[edgy zenith]

is anyone really doing keys high enough to see that though?

[hazy breach]

Unholy casually doing more than double that

[edgy zenith]

lmao

mobs are exploding rn

at the key levels people are running

[tribal blade]

i'm doing 14s atm, not sure if that's considered high

pretty high right now, doing 14s is putting you above cutoff i guess

[edgy zenith]

yeah, even in 14s, nothing is living past an Flag window with a somewhat competent group

[tribal blade]

you see boomies fucking murdering overall and now they're getting buffs

it's gonna be gg

boomy is meta spec

100%

[edgy zenith]

Feral is mega slept on too

[sour forum]

boomy, fire wombo combo

[edgy zenith]

don't think they got buffs though

[tribal blade]

yeah i hear feral is very good too

their buffing according to raid

as usual

[paper iron]

@tepid trellis last time i bother u then i go sleep and pretend nothing happened, Devoker really needed a buff cant u see

[edgy zenith]

bro Dev is nuts rn. and it seems kinda fun ngl

imagine raiding

[paper iron]

dev is...

[edgy zenith]

and never worrying about fight time

[bleak night]

yeah i love pressing beam

and beam

and then beam

[paper iron]

lemme check our stix kill

[bleak night]

and uh

[paper iron]

where our devoker rank 1

[bleak night]

beam

[paper iron]

i wanna see something fun

[edgy zenith]

yeah I love pressing backstab, and backstab, and let me check... backstab

[paper iron]

see rank 1 blablabla

[edgy zenith]

every spec seems stupid when you put it like that

[bleak night]

yes sub is stupid

[edgy zenith]

oh okay, carry on

[paper iron]

lowest apm in the raid

[tribal blade]

ok i have a first world problem

[paper iron]

our enhance is dead early

[modest delta]

i agree

[tribal blade]

i've timed everything on 13 and higher so now there's barely any IO keys in lfg

[modest delta]

besides unh dk but they are just padders like ret

[edgy zenith]

Ret is unironically really insane in M+ and I don't think it gets worse at higher key level too

crazy utility too

[tribal blade]

i looked at ret's dmg break down

[modest delta]

Yeah

[tribal blade]

they have good overall

but their prio is trash

they do literally no prio dam

[modest delta]

this

[edgy zenith]

prio is fake

[bleak night]

ret is giga pad

[modest delta]

neither does unh

[tribal blade]

so it's just huge aoe pad

[bleak night]

and now they buffed final reckoning so they probably wont even take es anymore

[tribal blade]

which is good in some pulls

[bleak night]

even more pad

[tribal blade]

but a lot of pulls it's completely worthless

[paper iron]

ret got a 20% buff on final verdict

[tribal blade]

there's only 1-2 mobs that need to die

[paper iron]

btw

[tribal blade]

and the rest are fodder

[bleak night]

wait yeah its final verdict

not final reckoning

[grave delta]

what stats were the looking at to buff dev..

[paper iron]

Time to go in cryostasis until .5 patch, cya later subs i m switching to assa channel from now on

[bleak night]

maybe i am a ret player after all

since i cant read

[jaunty umbra]

if prio was that important then havoc would be meta

[tribal blade]

like for sub i'll check the damage on important mobs after a key and you're usually the highest

[modest delta]

Sub is in a really good spot though

[tribal blade]

esp if you do your job correctly

[modest delta]

I’m not pushing keys yet but the 14s i do i’m 99% on the top of overall

[tribal blade]

it's more so that ret does basically no prio

[paper iron]

u cant check m+ parses

it doesnt work like in raid

[modest delta]

I didnt mean 99% as in a parse

[paper iron]

[modest delta]

I meant 99% of the keys i do i’m top in overall

[paper iron]

my bad then, missunderstood

[modest delta]

its okay i forgive you

[paper iron]

oh yea

Depends with who u play with

[modest delta]

but you actually could check m+ parses

Just key %

[paper iron]

average fire mage wil do tank damage, u probably cant win against few mages

[hazy breach]

sure but it doesnt convey the same information that parses in raid does

[modest delta]

yeah this is the only class that smacks me

[obtuse shard]

Are u sure, udk would beat the shit out of sub

[paper iron]

Think ww would slap top also somehow

never saw one

[modest delta]

udk seems to level out at the end of key

[paper iron]

but checking their single target

[modest delta]

they only blow past at the beginning from what ive seen

[paper iron]

uhdk would beat the shit out of sub in every key but top probably

overall that is

[tribal blade]

i did a 14 top with a udk and he didn't do good overall

[paper iron]

shit will do 30m dps on the first room of cinderbrew

gl to catch that at anytime in the key

[tribal blade]

the small target count in there bad for them

[final holly]

I like how much damage we bring to bosses tbh, having a sub feels like you just straight up remove tyrannical

[modest delta]

Esp damage amp bosses

We destroy first boss ML and last boss rook

[tribal blade]

i feel like they need to change the soft cap on BP

to like 12 targets or something

[hazy breach]

Theyre not going to

The point is for it to stop doing good damage above 8 targets

[tribal blade]

yeah def not

[paper iron]

what s fun is that before this patch, assa was already the most played rogue spec in 15 16

[hazy breach]

Tbf people also suck at playing sub

[tribal blade]

yeah sin is the golden child rogue spec for blizz atm

[paper iron]

i would consider casual a great sub, yet he decides to play assa in most key, actually all but top i think

idk who else push as rogue rn

wox as outlaw for sure

[steel sierra]

I feel like it's the vocal majority. The average rogue player doesn't want to play Sub because it's not as fun and quite punishing compared to sin.

[narrow night]

afaik he only plays assa in big pull dungeons like floodgate and meadery

[steel sierra]

So they buffed sin more so they don't feel inclined to play Sub, tinfoil hat theory

[paper iron]

They have bad taste, i hated sub in dust era, but right now it s really a good gameplay loop all 3 rogues specs are great currently (but outlaw cuz KS is just not it in modern wow)

i said it

[deep estuary]

yo guys quick question. i crafted a 658 dagger a few weeks ago. i now have enough gilded to craft a 675. do i recraft my 658 or keep the 658 for my offhand? (i currently done have a better offhand dagger)

[sonic hamlet]

will these buffs just make sin the top tier rogue spec against others

[lucid jackal]

They just buff the worst spec, sin sucks so it gets a buff

It's not that complicated

[sonic hamlet]

boring to play

[paper iron]

i would assume he plays sub only in top and workshop, these 2 dungeons are the only better for sub than assa. I ve seen him doing DFC as assa, ML as assa, CM as assa

[sonic hamlet]

[paper iron]

actually imma check him profile

i m actually happy for the ST buff for assa, it s lovely they needed it

[modest delta]

idk but im happy with were sub is

[narrow night]

na you are right he used to play sub more but he pivoted to more assa mb

[modest delta]

also, mage p much just got a buff huh?

[final holly]

Make sure to sim but I think you're better off using that spark for another slot like your neck or something

[paper iron]

as i said

assa on all of these

sub in the 2 bottom

[modest delta]

recraft shouldnt use another spark

[final holly]

Crafting a whole new dagger will take 2 extra sparks, recrafting takes no sparks

[paper iron]

fire is nerfed (not enough), arcane and frost needed some love

[modest delta]

oh i read it wrong

yeah, that makes sense

[molten citrus]

Offhand is kinda w/e so it just depends how bad your offhand is

[vernal junco]

ye like ret pal

[lucid jackal]

Well ret didn't deserve it Lol

[paper iron]

yea ret is a bit weird

[vernal junco]

[hallow sigil]

So sin is buffed and sub is untouched? What does this mean for the overall picture of rogue specs?

[alpine wraith]

people that like sin will play sin

people that play sub will play sub

[hallow sigil]

But is sin strictly better? Assuming you like em all

[modest delta]

idk

hope that helps

it's likely so marginal it wouldn't matter

[alpine wraith]

things are not that cut and dry at least for raid

[young mural]

honestly feels like sub numbers still better compared to sin

but we'll have to see

so basically: idk

[modest delta]

they're likely close enough to just play whatever you want

[steel zinc]

In execute heavy fights so 2 of the last 3 in raid you will play now sin

[hazy breach]

Bandit isnt really that much about the execute

You need to kill the adds before too, and sub is better at that because it lines better with its cooldown

[steel zinc]

ok

[paper iron]

well not really

[alpine wraith]

depends really if execute does not last more than 2 mins

you play sub anyway

[paper iron]

cuz you probably can send 2 set of sub cds, and only 1 of assa

so sub > assa even in exec

[steel zinc]

tbf you lust last phase or closer to execute

that favors sin

[alpine wraith]

yea it was funny also assa execute is kekw

[paper iron]

it s still 2 sets of sub cds

[alpine wraith]

only does 500k less dps than warr on execute

[paper iron]

i mean

i could sim that if i wasnt lazy

but i am

[alpine wraith]

even unholy execute is better

[hazy breach]

And on mugzee assa is horrible at dealing with the gooners, whereas sub is really good

[alpine wraith]

but if you get 2 sets of cds it is mighty fine

yea in NORMAL guilds

[hazy breach]

Obviously you can make it work and have the execute damage come through at the end

[alpine wraith]

likely you get assigned to duo a gon

you have at least 1 dance

[hazy breach]

But its probably not a situation where one spec is clearly strictly better

[alpine wraith]

not all guilds have 4 fire magues and 3 monks

to cheat

[strange chasm]

eventually everything that matters will get nerfed and you just want pure boss ST

and ass will be king again

[edgy zenith]

guys how do I play with TFD it feels so awkward

is it dance > second sectech?

[undone mesa]

someone can say if this dmg breakdown is following the "right" dmg order? it was a priory

[edgy zenith]

feel liek it lands in a weird timing

nto used to it

[tribal blade]

BP should be higher

unless your tank single pulled the whole dungeon

[tepid trellis]

besides the fact that you can spatter them

[paper iron]

if u dont have 4 magus in your guild

[hazy breach]

Ye if you dont get targeted

[paper iron]

what are ur guildmates doing

[tepid trellis]

Void elf

[undone mesa]

he did almost 7adds per pull

[tepid trellis]

or Evoker grip

[hazy breach]

But max showed their logs and exile was doing less than half of what the mages were doing

[tribal blade]

yeah that sounds like he small pulled the whole dungeon, sad

[hollow gyro]

Ya but at that point spec is irrelevant so just play outlaw for Mickey Mouse parses

[hazy breach]

Idk i just dont think it matters that much, perfecto played sub still

But ye 6% is a lot

[cedar wren]

Hey, I tried sub for the second time in a Cinderbrew 7 and I'm a bit lost, I get the basics of the spec, but when my cds are on cd I'm hitting as much as than the tank, is it "normal" or am I missing something? Like cds management or

I can share the log if you're willing to give some advice

I'm completely new to sub like from scratch

[edgy zenith]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[edgy zenith]

you can also post a log if you want, key logs are worse to look at than a boss though: use the command !log

[cedar wren]

that's relieving

[edgy zenith]

seems like the logs are getting reviewed by some people recently

which is surprising

[cedar wren]

It scared the shit out of me when I saw myself doing lower than the tank sometimes

[cedar wren]

aight

thanks thanks

[supple verge]

Sub is all about rolling the fattest secret technique you possibly can

And smoking it in one hit

Then just chilling on the couch for 90 seconds

[cedar wren]

What an interesting concept

All or nothing ahh spec

[edgy zenith]

yes

you live for the wet dream 10+ stack flawless, pot, radiant power, secret technique

that's all the dopamine you can get

[wicked urchin]

I...don't wanna go back to ass rogue

I just started enjoying my time here

[twilit phoenix]

You don’t have to

[solemn creek]

hmm

[bleak night]

if you're going to swap fotm then be a man and fucking commit

go mage or something

[solemn creek]

testing this.. i dont even see it in detail

what is that black pirate damage ?

[bleak night]

none of this half assed rogue shit

[wicked urchin]

I will mentally feel like shit not playing the stronger spec

[twilit phoenix]

That’s like what, 0.2%?

[wicked urchin]

Also if the other rogue is gapping me rip me

[solemn creek]

ya i can read, that wasnt the question lol

it doesnt show in detail

[twilit phoenix]

Can you read? I was asking you a question

[solemn creek]

didnt seem like a question my bad lol. ya it is 0.2% ish

[hazy breach]

Probably already got nerfed

Had some bugged interactions with attack speed

[twilit phoenix]

I think it got stealth nerfed tho, outlaw chat is talking about it

[hazy breach]

Which is why it was like 4% ahead of all the other trinkets for outlaw

[solemn creek]

it certainly do something

but detail doesnt ccatch it

weird

read the outlaw pin.. that shit is still scaling with our a.a speed, so hotfix still not up

[alpine wraith]

maybe it got hotfixed?

[solemn creek]

but im more concerned about not seeing it in detail. maybe the melee= mine + the trinket

[twilit phoenix]

hmm, that's weird

idk this whole noggen thing is sussy

sims as a loss for me in patchwerk

665

[solemn creek]

well now its showing

wtf

[strange chasm]

need to sim latest

[twilit phoenix]

wdym?

[twilit phoenix]

oh word, ty -- lemme try it again

[solemn creek]

latest seems to have the hotfix

[twilit phoenix]

haha damn wtf

blizz really wants people to delve I guess

[twilit phoenix]

lil bro's got hands

[solemn creek]

with and without slice and dice

so a.a still working

[oak idol]

Balanced trink

[solemn creek]

this is a 20 sec of only auto attack

was trying to see if our a.a was still affecting the trinket. also i couldnt see it on my detail before.

[hollow crane]

what trinket is this ?

[misty condor]

Noggenfogger Ultimate Deluxe

[molten citrus]

yet they're hotfixing it 💀

that trinket will not be a gain for sub as soon as its fixed

was barely a gain when for me when i got one this morning

[twilit phoenix]

i'll continue to be a hero track sussy drink sipper

[molten citrus]

i got a hero track drink on my DH yesterday

and a weapon

[twilit phoenix]

SLURRRRPPPP

[molten citrus]

then i got hero track noggenfogger today

never gone from so hype to so down bad in 1 day with an item

[twilit phoenix]

[bleak wind]

we have nowhere near the same attack speed as outlaw don't know why its surprising that its not that good

[misty condor]

It's real value is that it is completely busted in the mage tower

[hazy breach]

Cant have niche trinkets being good on niche specs

All specs much enjoy each trinket equally

[paper iron]

but then

outlaw goes brrrrrrrrrrr

[hazy breach]

Yes, and i think that the version of wow where stuff like that happens is more interesting than every trinket being roughly the same powerlevel for every class

But blizzard clearly disagrees

[paper iron]

back in the days u play only 1 trinket the rest was 10% behind

🧓

And also u need your good socket combination to get your hit cap and all 🧓

[hazy breach]

Ye now using no trinket at all is not even a 10% loss

[paper iron]

tww trinkets looks worse than df trinkets

which look worse than SL trinkets

cant say for bfa havent really play

[hazy breach]

Not that crazy in bfa

Legion had absolutely whack trinkets though, because it still had stuff similar to current pirate trinket

[lilac stag]

Love that Sub tuning we got. 💀

https://giphy.com/gifs/btqU9V0Z48j3in2xBu

[paper iron]

yea i need to change my meme a bit

gott replace nimble with caustic

[lilac stag]

KS can go in the approved list lol

[slate basin]

Does the hour long tricks of the trade only work if you do damage during the 30 seconds?

[lilac stag]

Yes

[slate basin]

Seems suspicious

[hazy breach]

Why

[lilac stag]

Why?

You have actually activate it

Just like you would any other time

[hazy breach]

Sure its not intuitive, but it does what it says its gonna do. It increases the threat transfer window from 6 seconds to 60 minutes

[kind bluff]

Pirate spec with pirate trinket.

[slate basin]

Yeah, I just assumed I press it on someone and it does an hour vuff

[lilac stag]

You know what they say about assumptions.

@hazy breach we back to progging as assa?

[hazy breach]

[lilac stag]

I just want to know what they’re looking at to say yeah sub is good.

[lucid jackal]

Think sub is still better

[lilac stag]

more fun yes. dps after tuning?

[lucid jackal]

I think it's still stronger lol

Cuz oab for example Ur add damage is just gonna be way worse compared to being able to move dances around

And the first bomb sets lineup exactly with your cooldowns

There's like, sub, ret and ww that can deal with those bombs cleanly

I think on mugzee sub will get more cooldowns than sin will with current gear levels

But unsure still

[lilac stag]

I’m curious to see where prog ends up for the hof guilds next week and what the numbers look like. I think sub will have a fight or two, but in general I’m kinda expecting the mass exodus back to assa in mythic.

[lucid jackal]

Yeah every noob is going to flock back to it

[lilac stag]

outlaw lads left right quick as soon as two people showed up on top.

gear is easy enough to share on sub and assa so can likely just run whatever is strongest per boss.

[strange chasm]

Hm but if the napkin map is right. Sin 2.4 something with buffs ST and Sub 2.525

sub still on top?

[lilac stag]

most people will gravitate back to it since it's generally considered easier

[zenith thorn]

Are you implying current sub is hard?

[alpine wraith]

sub is not hard just complicated

[fallen crescent]

[tribal blade]

does anyone have the issue where the bonk stun cicle in darkflame is hitting you when you're not in it

[molten citrus]

you'd be surprised at how many people say it is

[uncut bloom]

Yeah has happened to me a few times

[lusty narwhal]

define hard

[twilit phoenix]

rogue players literally pissing and shitting their pants

when all 3 specs are good and fun to play

[lucid jackal]

No

[lucid jackal]

Sub is still better imo

Like I said, people will switch to it cuz it's easier

Like sub isn't hard but it's still harder than sin

[stiff stirrup]

Are we talking about raid or m+?

[lucid jackal]

Raid

[zenith thorn]

Lmao no it's not, but i can agree sub is more punishing if u get a mechanic

Only nuance sub has is when to hold ur short cds for next set of 130

[lucid jackal]

I mean sin still has the issue of being a literal passenger princess on bosses on keys

Does way more aoe ofc but

Pros and cons

[paper iron]

Meanwhile u could be mage and top ST while doing real good aoe while bringing buffs and utility and lust and cool stuff and hold your pi and /kiss on your toes middle of the key

[zenith thorn]

And do all the mechanics with insane movement they have and util

But i think using mage kit to perfection is way harder than any rogue spec

[lucid jackal]

This is literally harder than any part of sin

Talking from a sin enjoy ee

R

[zenith thorn]

I only think it's hard when u get a mechanic and it's desyncs

Otherwise no.its pretty scripted

[small hemlock]

When would you start holding

Like what’s the ideal scenario

[zenith thorn]

U need 1 dance charge and second one charging at least 40 seconds before sending next 1:30 and 2x symbols

[small hemlock]

Cool

[zenith thorn]

And send cb literal on cd so it's up in time for next set of cds

[small hemlock]

Do you symbols in both dances

[zenith thorn]

If u wait when it comes off cd it may not be up

[brisk raptor]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[small hemlock]

One for first sectec one for cb sectec

[zenith thorn]

Yeah u want the supercharge buff

On both ur symbols

I mean ST*

Which comes from pressing symbols*

Is what i ment

[small hemlock]

Ye I got you

Ty

So 1 dance 1 40s

2Symbols I’ve done it right

I’m alright at that tbh I just seem to have lost my timing a bit after trying to optimise using the sb in line with the 4set buff so just holding the cb for the 2nd sec in the opener

[wet widget]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[lucid jackal]

I think this raid legit has no mechanics that lineup with Cd's

For sub anyway

[brisk creek]

On single target opener, do we apply rupture before going into flagellation burst rotation?

or do we wait to apply rupture until after burst is over and we're building combo points outside of dance

[zenith thorn]

Haven't noticed but there can be no? Like getting the ball on stix targeted by fixate adds on One arm bandit, pillars on rik, but you might be right idono

[brisk creek]

is [stealth] shadow strike > flagellation > rupture > symbols+dance, cb secret technique, coup de grace, shadowstrike, evisc, etc until second dance, shadowstrike, evisc, refresh symbols when secret technique is ready and secret technique correct? for opener?

or flagellation into evisc?

[lucid jackal]

Stix sure but stix is a fake fight to me

[lucid jackal]

You don't have cooldowns when you need to do Rik pillars

[lucid jackal]

No

Cold blood 2nd sectec

[brisk creek]

what button comes after flagellation?

is it rupture, evisc, or is it right into dance?

[lucid jackal]

Rupture

[brisk creek]

and then dance gives you CP after right?

or something?

[lucid jackal]

Strike flag rupture dance symbols backstab sectec blades

Do stuff, reapply dance

Sod at 10 seconds on sectec cd

Sectec with cb

[brisk creek]

you first sectec before blades?

why?

so the 2nd one is up in time ? or ?

[lucid jackal]

Cuz the followup damage is more important

You cast the blades right after the sectec

[brisk creek]

i dont get why u wouldnt press it before tho and get both from it is that so its up for longer for ur burst or what

[lucid jackal]

Because you gain an extra global of shadow blades this way

[brisk creek]

mm

[zenith thorn]

Really? Even when u delay ur opener strat i couldve sworn i got a pillar break once in the middle of dance

[quaint lodge]

Do you still hit evis in 7+ targets if theres just one priority target

[brisk creek]

around when do you use your third dance, as soon as its back up after the first burst roto, or wait a bit to make sure it lines up with your blades better? do we get enough CDR to fire the 3rd dance and symbols as soon as its up?

[quick latch]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/48WydcPTeo1bfZUCXuZ6es

does this mean i cant rly get any big upgrades from m+

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/b4RpawsjwpEZftTAtQQ5wN

im not very familiar with the droptimizer

[paper iron]

i mean

u still have some greens so it s still some value here and there

[quick latch]

yeh mostly belt

farming theater the whole day lol

but from this point its only ilvl upgrades right?

[paper iron]

you ll get it eventually

hmmm

[quick latch]

i feel like im lacking mastery , got 68%

everyone else is 90+

[paper iron]

u can try to just sim mythic +7 and check this box if u wanna compare to the same ilvl than what you ve eqquipped right now

if u want to check for secondaries

[quick latch]

it was checked

[alpine thunder]

what stats does sub want for M+?

[quick latch]

versa mastery

[small hemlock]

A chance to stealth

[neon walrus]

How long does a target have to stay up for to be worth rupturing? And can I just use rupture with less combo points if I need to? Asking especially for the affix this week - couldn't find this info on wowhead, sorry if i've missed it somewhere though.

[quaint lodge]

9 seconds, rupture combo point usage only defines its duration, not its damage

Rupturing the affix is a good idea

Unless you're in cds, thetn you'll one shot it anyway naturally

[neon walrus]

Thought so, thanks.

[lilac stag]

12 Seconds

[quaint lodge]

@neon walrus trust that guy over me

I thought it was 9, its 12

[neon walrus]

Okay - thanks

[quaint lodge]

hmm but fuu's guide says this

[lilac stag]

sorry was in a key. basically get them out when tank is gathering, or cds are on cd

[quaint lodge]

Nah I read it wrong

im stupid

[neon walrus]

that's remaining - to extend with that pandemic mechanic thing

oh you got it

[quaint lodge]

Yea

[lilac stag]

it wont make or break you

it's basically some dmg and cdr

[quaint lodge]

Its just what you do to feel less bad about yourself outside of cds

[neon walrus]

I'll ask another question while I'm here - when you're waiting on a pull to come together, do you guys wait before opening so that Unseen blade stays up for longer during your bust?

If you get what I mean - if you open very quick (because, uptime dps + you can with tricks) to spreadsome ruptures or something before you burst.. Does that not harm you because your unseen blade window will fall off during your bust?

I'm quite new, maybe this isn't a thing..

[quaint lodge]

No because unseen blade is applied randomly as well and will most likely be applied to your current target

[jaunty heath]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

You get guaranteed unseen blade hits from Sectech

Via the hero talent Disorienting Strikes

[neon walrus]

Honestly, I thought I understood unseen blade but apparently I don't

so I'm just reading through it all again, ty for the help.

[swift tinsel]

Causes your next two backstabs/shadowstrikes to ignore the UB cooldown

[neon walrus]

Is there no buff for this? I can't seem to see one, just like supercharge combo point

Looks like sectech applies UB to everyone anyway and I'm not sure why

[placid crown]

doable with sub rogue, brann was lvl 60 healer. Fight lasted 5min45.

[swift tinsel]

It applies Fazed

Unseen Blade is the damage event, Fazed is the debuff

[quick latch]

where u get that

[high star]

Underpin ??

[quick latch]

ah oke ty

looks nice

[high star]

Delve in north undermine

[quick latch]

ill give it a shot later

[neon walrus]

Do you guys track the 20sec fazed internal CD?

[swift tinsel]

Not personally

LE’s pack has one though

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[brisk creek]

Am i supposed to be able to squeeze out two Sectec's within my first dance in my burst roto or just one and reapply 2nd dance for the 2nd sectec?

[paper iron]

with The first dance it can happen that you have time to fit 2 sectech in one dance

[stable viper]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[paper iron]

without it, it s not

so as u said, it s one dance one sectech

the 2nd one on the second dance

[shrewd lantern]

my man you put mage in moderately smart

have you seen the average mage player

[paper iron]

just dont play with average mages

i usually dont invite mage before getting to the -1 top world key level

(which havent happen since aug exist, and last season i havent played)

[warm depot]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[young mural]

sims updated with trinket hotfixes?

[warm depot]

idts

[signal heath]

how do you post logs in the hopes some big brain cool cat looks at them and tells me what they notice im doing wrong? Im pretty sure i have my opener down pretty well, but its when i use my second SB/flag or inbtween that i have to be doing wrong...

[lusty swan]

got it done as sub!

[copper axle]

Since it's not simmed correctly I don't think, what's the reason noggenfogger has so much hype? Would it be considered than let's say a Pacemaker?

[twilit phoenix]

It just does big dam

And scales with attack speed

Rogue has big attack speed with slice

Outlaw especially with AR

[arctic geyser]

Hey, is sub or outlaw the best raiding spec atm?

[dry plank]

Assa got big buff. Who would’ve predicted that. 1 more buff to assa and few to deathstalker and gg sub

[hollow spear]

Based on the fuu sheet, if you add the 5.7% whispyr calculated for pure st, you end up with 2.445. Sub sims at 2.525. What's all the dooming about?

[upper narwhal]

It happens every time

[delicate slate]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[upper narwhal]

I’ll stick to the spec that can do ST in M+, swap targets with 0 friction and nuke ads as soon as they spawn

[keen dome]

I think the dooming is silly 'cos Sub didn't get nerfed. We're still just fine. Assa is a bit stronger, whcih is good for Rogue as a whole.

Play the spec you want to play

[open coyote]

hey, so i've watched and read some of the guides on how to do the ST opener, but i'm curious how you guys handle the 2nd big rotation with flag and shadow blades, i feel like i lose a lot of dps because i'm not properly doing it the 2nd time on the boss

is it just the same repetition as the opener but later on?

[vale osprey]

Yes, and to make sure it's the same you have to go into it with 1 charge of dance and the next charge at 40(?) seconds of CD

[arctic geyser]

Sub vs outlaw for raid?

[keen dome]

The one you like more

[arctic geyser]

Havent tried outlaw yet haha

[left fox]

Seems like the buffs to sin isnt really do much so im assuming sub is still better overall for both raid and m+?

[quaint lodge]

In M+ sub = assa, it just depends what you need more of

aoe or st

aoe you go assa

st you go sub

[spark plover]

hey, raidbot is upgrade for sim trinket ?

[wide kernel]

quick question, i'm running junkmaestros mega magnet, and i run sim (i'm new to it) and its saying a myth track house of cards is 70k dps increase?

[sour forum]

Sounds about right honestly

[oak path]

Does sub have funnel?

[wide kernel]

we're talking a magnet that is 30 ilvl lower

[meager coyote]

yikes

[sour forum]

You're saying it should be a higher increase? What i can tell u from my sim, i had a heroic transmitter, house of cards heroic was a 35k ish dps increase and myth was 50k ish

[wide kernel]

just confused is all

thought the trinket mattered more

i think magnet is like 1% dps increase

[keen dome]

We really want a 1:30 buff trinket like HoC / Transmitter / PvP, yes. We use it within our cooldowns to massively amp our damage.

So HoC should pretty much always be the best choice at high iLevels

[spark plover]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8ufUerBFnzKYWDFVNgoq2h look like energy drink still the best for me

this trinket "K.U.-J.0.'s Flame Vents" look like better than some other i have, there is a casting time so might not the best idea, but it deal more

[smoky vault]

Just discovered baseline ST Assa buffs, told ya.

[hollow spear]

The combination of circlet and the ridiculous bandit ring goes crazy. Top is bandit ring with high vers, bottom is rookery ring:

[keen yew]

26 hmmm

[keen dome]

love big versa, we tanks

[hollow spear]

Yeah, it's my top sim on st and only like 0.4% behind higher mastery on aoe

And almost 5% dr ain't nothing to sneeze at

[tulip remnant]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fathom gazelle]

!FUU

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[haughty rose]

that's the details meter of secret tec

every cast hits 3 times but does the damage shown in normal and critical hits show the damage of each individual hit or of each cast? because if it shows each cast it seems quite low. for each hit it seems a bit high

[willow bobcat]

4x3=12

[sudden bone]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[haughty rose]

sure but that would mean that the cast with Cold Blood have hit for a total of around 6 mil. Seems high idk

[willow bobcat]

Seem s low

My average cast on one fight tonight was 8.5m

[lilac stag]

6 mil is low

[haughty rose]

what ilv?

[willow bobcat]

657

[haughty rose]

and single target right?

[willow bobcat]

yep

[haughty rose]

i'm 642

[exotic solstice]

anyone have a good wa to track how many mobbs u fighting ?

[short delta]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[random hare]

time to do some illegal dmg

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

Some.. criminal damage

[rocky totem]

What are you looking for bud

[oak idol]

you saw nothing slime

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[oak idol]

Why is it not recommended?

I macro'd a shit tonne of stuff together

am i trolling

[rocky totem]

Sometimes you want to cast one thing without the other, depends what you macro’d

[oak idol]

cold blood+sectec

and dance+symbols

why not

[rocky totem]

Typically you hold the cold blood for the 2nd sectec at the end of your cooldowns

[clever delta]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[rocky totem]

Similarly the 2nd dance in CDs still has enough symbols duration to where you’re losing uptime by pressing it early (and potentially not supercharging your sectec)

[worn flint]

gz i have ha hard time with it cuz of his model i cant kick the bombs

[maiden hamlet]

You also lose the supercharger effect on your sectec if you dance & symbols together on the 2nd dance in cds

[clever delta]

i cant see how sub be better in raid now

[keen steppe]

Question for the m+ players here.. its my first season as sub since df season 2. You use your cooldowns always on cd right? Or you holding it?

[steel zinc]

no

you hold sometimes

just remember no dance no dmg

if you play with the affix you can be more aggressive

Its more feeling based and knowing how long a pack lives etc

[vestal escarp]

It's been fun 3 weeks chat

Now back to old times

[lilac stag]

Guy says sub better. Listen to guy.

[rain stratus]

Guy plays sub 🙂

[nova cairn]

My advice… in each dungeon for the first few times pop cooldowns on CD and you’ll start to tell yourself “ahh okay I should hold there” and you’ll learn yourself when and when not to hold

[vestal escarp]

Sure w/e

[clever delta]

i was saying this since start

that it will eventually happen

did not thing this soon tho

[steel zinc]

Quote it pls

bro assa is braindead with the new talent builds

and extra vanish to apply mark if you f up

[clever delta]

i just i fully optimized for sub kinda hurt me now in long run

[steel zinc]

nah your fine

[lilac stag]

#subtlety message

they’re already close overall.
ease of play for most def gonna be assa

[clever delta]

its not fine as i left assa trinkets in vault last week

[sly shore]

zeross screenshot incoming surely

[lilac stag]

You left a sub trinket in vault last week

Pacemaker already great on sub

[vestal escarp]

Them doctored screenshots

[lilac stag]

We need m+ friends vs doctored screen shots in a cage match.

[mental flume]

!SHEET

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tiny sierra]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[uncut kettle]

hey can you help me find why my house of card always desync from my shadow blade/house of card macro ?

[keen steppe]

sometimes im in a situation where i am a pack before boss and i hold it and then i feel bad bcs the pack dies not fast enough

[slate marlin]

affix

[void ocean]

are sims updated?

[uncut kettle]

ohhh right i feel dumb now thx 😄

[nova cairn]

And you’ll only learn if you just spend a few dungeons letting your cds rip

Sacrifice the damage metre for a few dungeons to beneficially impact all your future ones

[stark belfry]

IME from 7/8+ and higher you can send a sd/sod+ sectec on a pack and still get 2 full rotations on a boss after, even if you have to wait for CDs the first 10 seconds of a boss fight or so

[solar charm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[weary shard]

pacemaker a good non use trinket for sub?

[valid vault]

!dance

!stab

what is the command for dance/backstab macro

!backstab

[keen steppe]

I try i hit the +11 now and want to fit well in our setup thanks for your advises

[vale pine]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow DanceThis will cast Shadow Dance on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[vale pine]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[vale pine]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[valid vault]

ty

[vale pine]

no problem

[spark plover]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[spark plover]

fuu my sim in ST and dungeon slice telling me that suspicious energy drink is better than a lot of dmg trinket (and even spare key 662)

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8ufUerBFnzKYWDFVNgoq2h

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3yFfcjJ1i4CXvgwPWEyr6G

[haughty rose]

i got my shoulder set piece from the vault and wanna use them for pvp too. Do i have any disadvantages if i use the PvP ilv increase thing on it?

[misty estuary]

Same for me

[vestal escarp]

No screenshot from zeross

[clever delta]

i had quick peek at warcraflogs

and assa will overtake on all bosses maybe beside stixx but that will be break even at best for sub

its kinda funny that assa is up there even on rik

[lilac stag]

It’s a good trinket. This is an issue?

[spark plover]

just telling fuu that maybe the pin message is incorect

[hazy breach]

Its not

[lilac stag]

What part? Bis gear? Or your gear sim?

[spark plover]

Notes: Hotline is now the highest strongest second trinket, Eye of Kezan remain better on longer fight lengths.
Other trinkts which are now valuable include: Mega Magnet, Spare Keys, Wax Whistle, Sigil and Honey Buzzer .
Trinket selection for Mythic+ does not change much.

[lilac stag]

It’s correct.

As always sim your own gear

[spark plover]

no problem

[hazy breach]

What part of it is incorrect

[spark plover]

as second trinket, it look like suspicious energy drink is better , but that coz of my gear so i stop type

[hazy breach]

?

Your sparegrinder keys is the same as your energy drink

IE the keys are more valueable now

Before they werent

[spark plover]

no

662 sparekey and 658 energy

[hazy breach]

Yes but theyre not available at the same ilvl

Drink caps at 665, the others are 678

[vale pine]

drink is from delves

they cap out on heroic track

[lilac stag]

when you add 15-18 ilvl from your current gear to max, things have a good chance to “change” on the rankings.

This is why BiS lists are not something you follow blindly.

[hollow spear]

BiS lists are garbage, but people cry for them, so the guide writers have to include them

[vale pine]

best you can do is

copy/paste this below your /simc

in top gear

and select all trinkets you want to compare

the text file includes all relevant trinkets you can possibly get

also i am surprised how good the one trinket for outlaw is

even tho it is assumed to get a hotfix

[spark plover]

my take was, people looking at pin & bislist ;
bislist saying taht sparekey is BiS and pin saying now we are playing with one use dmg ;
while in reality, suspicious energy drink is better for probably a large majority of player

[rocky ocean]

I’m so happy that the goofy minecart trinket is back on the menu

[spark plover]

not wanted to create this chaos, sorry

[hollow spear]

I've passed on so many damage trinkets because they simmed like poop

I regret everything now

[vale pine]

well sparekeys is not bis now, hotline is

[hollow spear]

Well you're wrong

[lilac stag]

It’s taking advantage of swing timer. Apparently really good for 3 specs

[vale pine]

ye

it seems good on lower gear levels too

interessting trinket

[lilac stag]

I messed with it at 658 and it slaps

Can macro at player and just use it like a normal on use

Funny seeing him rise from the waters

[rocky ocean]

Which trinket is this

[hollow spear]

Did they fix the bug with the earthen ally trinket buffing mainstat when a healer uses it?

[sand monolith]

How much dps are we losing from not using the CB+ST macro? I read it's about 1% so....

[lilac stag]

noggen

You’re losing 1% of your dmg

[hazy breach]

Dont think that was a bug

[sand monolith]

Yeah I'll take that hit

[lilac stag]

silly

But you do you

[hollow spear]

Well, macroing it is probably even more of a dps loss

If you lose alignment with your flag window due to downtime or sth

[lilac stag]

get those dry sod cb sectechs.

[clever delta]

eleem is sub dead?

[lilac stag]

https://giphy.com/gifs/btqU9V0Z48j3in2xBu

[hazy breach]

Nah

[sand monolith]

so sad to not see any sub changes on the class tuning

I was really hoping for some aoe/cleave buffs

[clever delta]

you would not lie dont you

[lilac stag]

the positive. Didn’t see nerfs or a buff to BP to force deathstalker.

[sand monolith]

i was really hoping for buffs to BP

[lilac stag]

cleave buffs…

[lucid jackal]

Sub is still gonna be better on most fights

[sand monolith]

Even I wouldn't invite myself to priory or cinbermead

[lilac stag]

play better

[sand monolith]

nou

[keen dome]

I'd invite three Sub rogues to cindermead

[lilac stag]

or just reroll UHDK if aoe is that important to you

[keen dome]

Chewie will die

[sand monolith]

kek

[tribal blade]

we're on week 2 and this is the first round of tuning

there's gonna be a lot more

[keen dome]

Week 3

Isn't it?

[tribal blade]

uhhhh week 2 of the actual season i think?

[keen dome]

I have two myth items from vault

[tribal blade]

time is a fuzzy concept haha

[keen dome]

So week 3

Haha

[lilac stag]

sub still very strong in keys.

[keen dome]

But I dont' disagree at all with you

Also Sub is extremely good and strong and lovely and purple

[lilac stag]

just not gonna blast aoe, and it doesn’t need to

[tribal blade]

oh true yeah we've had 2 vaults you right

[iron whale]

what poisons should I run best during world content? atrophic and deadly?

[keen dome]

Ye

[vale pine]

unsure, i think outlaw is atm already better on many of the fights

but is not played

sin getting a roughly 5%+ buff will i assume lead to a shift towards it on almost all fights

[lilac stag]

I think more will dip their toe into outlaw as the top performers keep posting well

[vale pine]

if they don't fix the trinket

maybe we will have more outlaw players

[lilac stag]

is it actually broken?

[vale pine]

because that looks busted in sims

yes

[lilac stag]

So did transmitter

[vale pine]

but also inconsistent

look at outlaw pins

solo already made a notice

[lilac stag]

I have the trinket

[scenic yarrow]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lucid jackal]

Well duh but I mean between sin and sub

[vale pine]

sin atm performs on par with sub on logs

[lucid jackal]

Sub still has a better cd cycle than sin

[vale pine]

why do you think someone would pick sub over sin

[fleet acorn]

Fun

[vale pine]

does sub cd's make any of the fight noticable easier

[wary gate]

which will be the strongest spec for m+ after buffs? (talking about 12+ keys level). I'm equipping my rogue and still have to choose between assa or sub

[vale pine]

i think the main reason to bring sub atm is

for the no parry

at least after the tuning changes

tho lets see

[sand monolith]

imo sin after +12

[vale pine]

warcraftlogs statistic will over the next 2 weeks showcase it

[lucid jackal]

One armed bandit

You kill bombs with cooldowns

[vale pine]

if your assumption is correct, we will see the current trend of population stay unchanged relatively between specs

[wary gate]

why it will be in your opinion?

[vale pine]

if my assumption is correct, we will see a higher bias towards assassiantion

[sand monolith]

around +12 is where I start noticing sub getting seriously damage gated by aoe with big pulls. Still very good in a lot of small pool maps like ToP or Mechagon

[vale pine]

its an interessting experiment, i need to make a !reminder command for moroes

[lucid jackal]

Sins add damage is also just worse than sub on oab

I mean sin is gonna be way more popular for sure lol

[sand monolith]

Honestly, it's just the big pull maps like cinder and priory and sometimes floodgate

[signal heath]

!logs

[hazy breach]

Unironically probably the main reason it got buffed

Most just dont like sub as much as assa

[ivory salmon]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sand monolith]

huuuh. I honestly think sub is so much more fun than sin

[vale pine]

i got mostly positive feedback this season

unlike in s3 DF

so i don't think its a popularity issue

but i can get behind the idea of blizz always wanting assassiantion as the dominant spec

[tribal blade]

last tier they very clearly wanted to keep sin on top

[slate marlin]

ill probably play sub in top/mech/psf/rook

[tribal blade]

and now with a new tier where sub is doing better they bump sin back up to overtake sub

very clear bias

[vale pine]

because there was more time put into talents and it is the easier spec to perform on

skill floor is a very relevant topic for the majority of players

[scenic yarrow]

its a simpler more accessible spec to masses I think they want it that way

[vale pine]

exactly, my point

its a bit sad because subtlety is fun

[sand monolith]

100% agree

[lucid jackal]

Sub is still going to be better

Sin can't assist in damage anywhere on one armed bandit

That matters

[vale pine]

maybe^^

[signal heath]

is there a way to see the log channel with out doing !logs? cant find it on the left channels

[scenic yarrow]

I hope ur right guy

[slate marlin]

Sin has execute

[vale pine]

oulaw is still good

but people don't pay it

[sand monolith]

It's honestly just because of tierlists.

[vale pine]

this season would have been so far one of the best outlaw seasons

^^

[scenic yarrow]

^^

[vale pine]

yet everyone plays sub

objectively "best" is hard to discuss

or measure

[sand monolith]

People see outlaw on the bottom of the tier lists and no one wants to play it and I get it. If you've ever played a bad spec, and your numbers aren't high enough, people start flaming you.

[wet idol]

Ppl just thought outlaw was going to be bad, crafted dagger and just sticks to sub or sin

[vale pine]

outlaw also does good damage in m+

its not bad at all

[sand monolith]

Sub got a lot of positive wowhead attention so it's getting a lto more positive feedback and play rn.

[slate marlin]

outlaw is goated on theater

[vale pine]

my point about m+ is, guy

[sand monolith]

wew

[vale pine]

if you see spread between all 3, outlaw is the lowest played

and this while i would say all 3 are extremely close

outalw/sub should potentially be the more popular if thats the case

simply because survivability is important early on in a tier

[slate marlin]

But outlaw is capped, and thats awful in some dungeons

[quick compass]

okay fellas what's the tech for getting a pvp trinket without wanting to quit the game

[vale pine]

and both are sligthy better

outlaw capping is overstated

[vale pine]

the problem is not as dire as it looks, the spec performs well

[obsidian garnet]

Pretty nasty for bandit

[vale pine]

think its our niche atm

we can blow up adds

[lucid jackal]

Yep and u have symbols for every reel assistant

Sin is just ass on that fight

[vale pine]

and have 90 sec cooldown timers

[vale pine]

you mean assass 😛

haha

[vestal escarp]

Yay flag on adds

It's not like other classes can deal with those with less tax

[lucid jackal]

There's like 3 classes

It's like ret, ww, and sub lol

And u want as few "not shadow/aff" slots as u can

[scenic yarrow]

Are you holding your CDs till add or are you using a dance window on it

I havent tried that yet

[lucid jackal]

Ur Cd's just line up on mythic

[scenic yarrow]

Oh damn thats nice

[lilac stag]

Farm warchest in a raid group

[signal heath]

sub is bit big brain haha, for the life of me i cant figure out what im doing wrong in the second flag/SB usage. i never know if i should hold SD/symbols to wait for flag or send it and at how many charges i want of SD comapred to how much CD is left on flag etc... there isnt a set rule for that huh?

[vale pine]

!cds

[wicked jolt]

Cooldown Use:
Every 90 seconds you want to cast Flagellation and subsequently Shadow Blades. When these two are up you always want cast 2 Symbols of Death, 2 Shadow Dances and 2 Secret Techniques.
To ensure you have enough cooldown reduction on your Shadow Dance to attain that you need atleast 1 charge and roughly 40 seconds left on your second charge before casting Flagellation.

[vale pine]

^ this is great

i might do a graphic for cooldown management in the next days if i have a bit time on hand

[tribal blade]

a cope i have which is actually very true is sub is super passively tanky in raid

it does play a role in killing bosses faster when you're just not dying

[vale pine]

Hot take

[signal heath]

man that would be great... i posted my logs to the log channel. hoping i get some light at the end of the tunnel with learning sub. i cant even get the normal rota down let alone saving CDs for adds etc

[vale pine]

i think the no parry is a nice niche subtlety brings

[tribal blade]

that too

it's very underrated

[vale pine]

i would love to keep it as baseline

also another hot take

[worldly remnant]

Wdym I love having kb parried

[vale pine]

i wish hero talents would be not shared, every spec has one specific one thats good

so it would allow more room for creativitiy

if it was per spec

[signal heath]

also, why is it some times ill SD and it only gives me 4 combo points...

[tribal blade]

i agree

[scenic yarrow]

one time kingsbane was parried on ansurek and I wanted to throw my pc out

[slate marlin]

This

[sand monolith]

The first hit out of SD should always give you full combo points because of that one talent

[tribal blade]

i think going into TWW we saw blizz was not well equipped to handle having 2 hero trees per spec

[slate marlin]

Sub has trickster which is 10/10 for sub, all other hero talents for all other specs are so lame

[tribal blade]

maybe for some specs, but the specs they didn't put work into (rogue cough cough) it turned into a dumpster fire

where only 1 hero tree was viable per rogue spec

[slate marlin]

Which is sad bc i like deathstalker as a concept, gameplay is just ass

[tribal blade]

that's a very common take

i too was really excited for deathstalker

sadly they seriously screwed it up

[slate marlin]

Ye, icon is cool, lore is cool, purple is cool

Mark is shit

[tribal blade]

they spent SO much time just fixing DS

[vale pine]

deathstalker has fantasy wise so much potential

trickster has no real fantasy

[tribal blade]

because the initial thing they made was completely worthless

[paper iron]

They could have done 10 per spec for dk

[slate marlin]

trickster has cdr

[keen dome]

Trickster should've been an Ethereal theme'd thing where it did some cool nimble flurry clone hits and coup should've been a cool ethereal assassination

blizz hire me

[paper iron]

They had idea for them

[tribal blade]

yeah trickster has 0 fantasy but at least works well for sub 😉

until they put UB on storm

[sand monolith]

Honestly, I think I just like Nimble flurry from Trickster. There's not really anything else there

[vale pine]

haha, even tho there was 0 fantasy for trickster

[sand monolith]

DS mark is kinda cool

[trim acorn]

can someone help run a dungeon in dragonflight real quick

[paper iron]

Fatebound fantasy : be à homeless gambler Who decides his next move on coinflip

Huge fantasy

[vale pine]

it had the best art of the ones guide writers created for hero talents

[slate marlin]

I hope they do something for ds in .5

Besides bp buffs

[paper iron]

Ds feels good as assa its fine to finish at full cp

But as sub i can seen where everthing fall off

Should have been ds St, trickster aoe

[slate marlin]

Which is weird bc managing mark as sub is way easier

[ornate current]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[slate marlin]

u dont need vanish for it

Also assa has no alternative, they could delete fatebound and no one would care

[paper iron]

U dont really want to switch it arround

So Its whatever

[tribal blade]

i played sin in a bunch of keys today to get used to it again

playing DS mark was ultra depression

horrible gameplay

[paper iron]

I said ds doesnt feel bad on assa but to me all 3 hero talents are shit unfun imo

[slate marlin]

trickster is rly fun on sub tho

[tribal blade]

i did not miss playing without mark juggling and being locked to 1 target

[slate marlin]

bc cdr

cdr makes sub fun

[paper iron]

They tuned sub cds

Arround trickster

[humble frigate]

DS being a passively applied mark the way it is a miss. They could have used it to fill the gap on a spec that switches and does tank damage

[vale pine]

sub has an interessting general design

it is the de facto cooldown spec

[tribal blade]

dungeons like cinderbrew with massive pulls

[paper iron]

Remember that sectech was 45s before

[slate marlin]

ye sub is rly fun

[tribal blade]

and if you ever swap targets for any reaason trying to find your marked target again is hopeless

is just so bad

[vale pine]

assassiantion was for most part the sustained dps spec, it changed in DF where blizz tried to make all 3 specs more equal

now outlaw is the sustained

🙂

[paper iron]

But now noggznfogger exists

Outalw is the biggest 2mn CD rogue

[slate marlin]

Just whish they fixed some tslents for sub

[paper iron]

[tribal blade]

they want sub to be a super cd spec with the most downtime in the game

but aren't willing to let sub burst high enough

it's confusing

[paper iron]

I really prefer this sub iteration than the one where gloomblade is half your damage and your burst is non existant

If u delete Killing spree

All 3 specs at their peak gameplay rn

[slate marlin]

Ye same

I like the gameplay

i dont like having no options in talents tho, half the spec tree is just xd

[paper iron]

Now gotta give us à damage raid buff, coupke of m+ utilities that matters

[lilac stag]

use the nameplate WA

[paper iron]

And ill be à happy frog

[tribal blade]

i do have it 😉

[paper iron]

We have way more flexibility in our talent tree than s1 df

[tribal blade]

but trying to target it in a sea of over 20 namaplates

[paper iron]

And we have way more than druid

[tribal blade]

is rough

[paper iron]

Big W for rogue

[lilac stag]

how is that not obvious enough? kekw.

[tribal blade]

it's fine if the pull is like 10 targets or less

[paper iron]

With the way Its design

[tribal blade]

but the big pulls my god

[paper iron]

U dont have to switch target