subtlety

[jaunty heath]

You dropped this king 👑

[molten citrus]

nah

[steel zinc]

Hachadino got kicked in Shadowlands from his Guild when sub got nerfed in tww

[austere zodiac]

https://tenor.com/view/sad-cry-finals-it-chose-me-joker-gif-15761619

[sour forum]

do i look at bleed builds again? 🤣

[deft silo]

MY BURST

[worldly wasp]

can someone give me a good reason why they nerfed sub? I' just confused when we now seim 400k behind BM Hunter

[jaunty heath]

I don’t think you’d look at bleed builds in raid a lot but

If you like it

Go on

[hazy breach]

Take a look at logs

[tepid trellis]

too bursty and too good a dmg profile

[worldly wasp]

ah timings or what?

[sour forum]

idk, wanted to make a refference to assa, guess should have went for the dry shiv one

[jaunty heath]

Yeah you can go dry shiv

[austere zodiac]

thai mings

[jaunty heath]

[jaunty umbra]

because you shouldn't compare sim numbers between classes when the tier hasn't even launched yet

[worldly wasp]

damn so we dead like fury last tier.

[bleak night]

shiv dn

[worldly wasp]

in m+ at least

[austere zodiac]

WHATT

[steel zinc]

ngl thats actually omega cooked since the bosses no matter what dificulty rn die like in 2m

[austere zodiac]

bro

https://tenor.com/view/uni-cat-1000-yard-stare-espresso-gif-5540644428338043927

[tepid trellis]

the nerfs barely does anything at all

[austere zodiac]

its like 2-3% its not like you lost an inch bruh

[pliant topaz]

no shot yall are still coping about that

breh

[sour forum]

i mean they do add up, 1-2% last time, 2-3% now

[bleak night]

i cant believe they kill sub just as i was learning it

[steel zinc]

Fuu said 3% thats 5% more nerf then I expected

[ornate berry]

Sub dead, time to reroll to FF14

[bleak night]

why would blizzard do this to me

[steel zinc]

Its an Outlaw Tier

Zac said it

[sour forum]

i wouldnt mind an outlaw tier....

[jaunty heath]

Yeah you can keep that opinion

[sour forum]

hahaha

[jaunty heath]

[austere zodiac]

Outlaw tier is chair + rope in minecraft ofc

[steel zinc]

Yeah that was in thing on cleave fights now nimble flurry is better then the og blade flurry

So its over for outlul

[shrewd lantern]

There hasn't been an "outlaw tier"

like ever

I guess early voti

[sour forum]

wasnt vault

pretty outlawish

[steel zinc]

Thats why its an outlaw (never meta) 😄

[steel zinc]

you played sub on last boss double sub

[swift tinsel]

Honestly expected worse

[shrewd lantern]

let's be real

Rasz was like

majority of voti prog

outlaw was better on the sub 50 pull bosses

[sour forum]

idk how we compare other classes, but if i were to believe sims, rogue overall is pretty garbagio 😂

if sub rly deserved this nerf 😢

[swift tinsel]

Doesn’t affect gameplay so trickster still fucking owns

[tepid trellis]

sims dps =/= actual raid dps

[sour forum]

thats true

[small juniper]

okay dude

[sly shore]

false

[pliant topaz]

false

[shrewd lantern]

How much does the fact i dont have a transmitter above normal effect that

[small juniper]

id just quit tbh

wtf u doing

[bleak night]

yeah

probably just go next tier

[pliant topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/spider-man-we-one-gif-18212100

[bleak night]

go play monster hunter or something

[small juniper]

not having 639 trans is prob very awful this tier

not a fantastic start

[shrewd lantern]

Isn't it comparable to hc house of cards

or something

[steel zinc]

Yo the guy from raidbotsstore said I can trust his numbers for raid

Its like the Amonation guy from GTA

[small juniper]

house of cards is good for other classes too

[steel zinc]

looks trustworthy

[small juniper]

its unlikely youre gonna get it as a rogue for a while

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah that's the issue

[steel zinc]

its like bis for nearly all dps specs

[small juniper]

ye

so sub is prob last in line

cus trans is rly strong

[sly shore]

[small juniper]

so unless u for some weird reason play for long term bis on progress

and get it in vault

u prob wont get it for a bit

[alpine wraith]

yea sub will get some ass trinkets like mythic magnet and others

[shrewd lantern]

Lol

[alpine wraith]

because they are decent on us

[shrewd lantern]

might get stuck playing sin then

[alpine wraith]

but shit for everyone else

[steel zinc]

To be fair goon squad trinket is looking really good after Eye Nerf. So idm if we are top prio on that

[weary summit]

guys is it joever

[sour forum]

yes, panic

[weary summit]

cope for last minute changes or swap to assa?

[worthy pulsar]

guys why the spec i always switched to got nerfed

[small juniper]

cus u are too good

make the spec too op

nerfed gg

[upper narwhal]

Sub is literally dead guys you better go back to your old mains

[steel zinc]

it is

[worthy pulsar]

😭

[steel zinc]

was a nice few days

[small juniper]

blizzard is specifically monitoring your account

[steel zinc]

Exile from Liquid said its also over he deleted all rogues and uninstall wow

[small juniper]

youve ruined it for everyone

[shrewd lantern]

lowkey being cucked by external factors meant low reclears

no transmitter no contract

[jaunty umbra]

might aswell delete your rogue

[sour forum]

i just want them to nerf transmitter so i dont have to squint my eyes for that damn tiny orb ever again in my lifeee

[sullen hare]

So dead. Definitely do not pay subtlety rogue

[worthy pulsar]

sorry my subs, ill shouldnt have switched from outlaw 😭

[dusty totem]

We talked about this we needed to sandbag this week to avoid nerf but we are weak

[steel zinc]

yeah you were to good at the game

look what happend

its now broken

all 3 rogue specs dead. Assa finally now above prot warrior

[worthy pulsar]

😭

[uncut grove]

is our 2+4p still giving us about 14% dps increase or is it before the nerf to our tier set?

[small juniper]

its closer to 0 now

[steel zinc]

its over you wear no tier

[sour forum]

we dont have numbers but i guess its lower now

[uncut grove]

oh

thanks guys

🙂

[steel zinc]

its roughly 18% lower then right now

[small juniper]

18% lower than 14%

so its a dps decrease

to wear new 4 set

[steel zinc]

so if its 13% rn its roughly 11%

[small juniper]

joe over

[uncut grove]

okay

[tribal blade]

wtf is blizz doing

what is this

[uncut grove]

thanks

[steel zinc]

the whole nerf is roughly ~3%

[jaunty umbra]

here comes another

[dusty totem]

Spec is dead gonna start gearing fire mage

[sour forum]

is any1 in the shaman discord?

are they in a civil war rn?

[steel zinc]

Gotta always play main char class of wow

Knowledge is Power

Champion I need your aid

[tribal blade]

why are we not allowed to be a top spec

[steel zinc]

what is a top spec?

[jaunty heath]

Because ur a sub, duh

[tribal blade]

enhance last tier

[dawn robin]

Guys how do you delete toon this is too much

[jaunty heath]

Cant be top and sub that doesn’t work

Unless you got a leash on

[brisk onyx]

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[jaunty heath]

[sour forum]

unless u got dust in amirdrasill

[tribal blade]

well more tuning gonna be coming so we'll see what happens

this isn't the last wave of tuning

[jaunty heath]

I don’t think you understood what I meant

[sullen hare]

Sub tops exist because power bottoms do too

[jaunty heath]

But I like that you guys are innocent

[steel zinc]

topsub sounds like sth shit

[jaunty heath]

Good for you

[small juniper]

yeah its gonna go great for us when every1 crafts weapon week 1 and get 90% of power for the whole tier

[steel zinc]

I think details upside down sub is top

[jaunty heath]

Yuh that’s why the leash is important!

[tribal blade]

well if the nerf isn't that massive should be ok

and just hope they adjust later on

[steel zinc]

Guys I fixed sub/rogue

[austere zodiac]

back to assa

[steel zinc]

yes assa again topping after 4% buff

[alpine wraith]

yea week 1 will be very funny

[steel zinc]

also aug is back

[alpine wraith]

craft weapon then look at other upgrades

oh wait it is all m+

ALWAYS HAVE BEEN

[steel zinc]

tbf as sub you need a dagger tier and your good to go

rest is very minor upgrades at that point

[jaunty heath]

Well idk about that

You kinda need a banger trinket

[alpine wraith]

not really all passive trinkets are mid

so you just get a decent m+ and you're done

[steel zinc]

all trinkets are very meh

[alpine wraith]

azerokk/seaforium

sure if you drop hc thug it is good

[jaunty heath]

I was talking in general

[alpine wraith]

but like 1% better

[jaunty heath]

Mit specifically this tier

Hey I got a candle out of my veteran boxes

It’s a 15k upgrade over my contract

[limber folio]

imagine not stealing transmitter from the annoying mage in your raid team saying youre gonna use it and you never do

[alpine wraith]

although likely we get stuck with mythic magnet

[sour forum]

Is there any on use 2 min good trinket this tier, didnt rly bother looking em up 🏃‍♂️

[alpine wraith]

no 2 mins are worse

than transmitter

[shrewd lantern]

priory trinket for sin ig

[alpine wraith]

but if it is all you have unluck

[sour forum]

Nah i mean do we fight for house of cards with the 2 min classes?

[jaunty heath]

Heroic transmitter blows my mood a bit for start of this tier

[alpine wraith]

yes

but we lose

badly

[sour forum]

Then rip

[alpine wraith]

our dmg increase is so tiny

[shrewd lantern]

At least enhance doesnt anymore?

iirc they drop ascendance

[alpine wraith]

no rl is going to even think about giving it to us if we already have transmitter

[jaunty heath]

Just delete transmitter say you never had it

Equip a scabrood or something

Then your gain is not small

[steel zinc]

Like without transmitter you shouldnt play sub

[alpine wraith]

equip kiss of death

[jaunty heath]

[steel zinc]

Thats like playing with one dagger

[frigid dragon]

Do we not use one of each gem? Just the Verse Mast or Mast Verse ones?

[sour forum]

Kinda dumb u are forced to have a trinket from last season but

[steel zinc]

its probably better to play iwth one dagger then without transmitter

[jaunty heath]

Well it’s a cursed blade kinda thing

[sour forum]

Spymaster got a few nerfs more nerfs that transmitter dodged

[jaunty heath]

For prog it’s not bad

You get to blast right away

[shrewd lantern]

wait are delves same loot table as s1

[small juniper]

whens next cata tw @alpine wraith

[steel zinc]

at this point I do not want it to be nerfed because we already go enoug nerfs imo

[small juniper]

can u check

[jaunty heath]

Yeah + some more

[small juniper]

my calender is bricked

[steel zinc]

We used Evasion

[shrewd lantern]

it was just last week

so unlikely anytime soon

[alpine wraith]

big while

[molten citrus]

you should be able to sim it

[steel zinc]

imo also this was todays last class tuning before the race.

[jaunty heath]

Transmitter is also flat out not as powerful as spymasters

It’s huge and stuff

[sour forum]

I just have a heroic one soooo...

[jaunty heath]

But Spymasters was

[alpine wraith]

spymasters was more problematic because it would break fights

a fully stacked one was so much dmg

[broken swallow]

They may as well buff transmitter at this point

[alpine wraith]

on so many specs

[jaunty umbra]

spymaster arcane on execute

[sour forum]

We get our house of card with dinar

[small juniper]

think u rather buy eye

or goon

if eye is bis then eye

since its bis for every1

[jaunty heath]

Same for house of cards

[limber folio]

i will goon

[small juniper]

not as big an upgrade

[jaunty heath]

Every 2 min, every 1.5 min everyone wants house of cards

Well ye if you have a myth transmitter

Prob not first dinar

Agree

[shrewd lantern]

wait does every spec like mastery

[alpine wraith]

dinar comes like in august

[shrewd lantern]

besides our step child pirate spec

[alpine wraith]

that will be oofers

it is a joke it might be in may or something

[steel zinc]

gooon is very good rn

[tribal blade]

just pray the people on your loot council give the trink to 1.5 min specs first

[alpine wraith]

goon gives us extra dmg in bl

ahaha

[jaunty heath]

Not really but it’s better than the other 2mins even if it’s mastery for most specs

[shrewd lantern]

I think enh isnt a 2min spec anymore?

heard they arent playing ascendance

[steel zinc]

they have more constant dps now

and there output is procc based

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah its more hot hands focused from what i saw on ptr

and doomwinds cdr

so probably outlaw if outlaw wasnt designed by a highschool intern

[jaunty heath]

Idk if that’s a good thing tho they finally got cds

[steel zinc]

has the rng in aoe of outlaw * 10

[jaunty heath]

After years of

Flat line

Now they back to flat line

[steel zinc]

yeah I didnt check on S2 just in S1 was insane

[shrewd lantern]

yeah i remember in sl

[tranquil garden]

finally got a dagger to drop...it's a fucking intellet only

why is that still a thing

[shrewd lantern]

our sham complained about hot hands

like every 5 minutes

[jaunty heath]

Flat line just isn’t great in raid

Both shaman specs actually had a flat line

For the longest time

[sour forum]

So does any1 know off the top of their head how a heroic transmitter compares to a heroic house of cards?

[fathom pecan]

im so waiting for someone to sim yo self emote

send it

[sour forum]

Yea ill do it tmr, i am on phone so i figured id ask if any1 already done it

[molten citrus]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[austere zodiac]

!sims

[wicked jolt]

Simulations:
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html

[lusty swan]

S2 M+ sub going to be the spec?

[austere zodiac]

maybe

idk the shit isnt even out yet

calm your tits

[molten citrus]

likely within 0.5-1% like mythic VS mythic

[lusty swan]

I just don't like sin

lol

[molten citrus]

so don't play it

[sly shore]

if you have to ask what to play it doesn't matter what you play

[small juniper]

spec doesnt rly matter unless youre high end raiding

[sly shore]

sui

[small juniper]

top 10 really

[cedar eagle]

[sly shore]

like -1.5% transmitter good

that's mythic transmitter actually

4/6 mythic vs mythic transmitter btw

[warm veldt]

I checked this out a bit ago I think a 626 transmitter was equal to a 665 house of cards ish

but really just do the sim thing

[austere zodiac]

surely they nerf transmitter to the ground

[warm veldt]

yes

[sly shore]

they sure can't buff house of cards

[calm palm]

Something to account for is ease of using house of cards vs transmitter

[sly shore]

it's too good for everyone

[azure mauve]

im surprised they havent already

[lusty swan]

i bet it will be if they almost always nerf over performing last season trinkets

[azure mauve]

when did the algrethat trinket get nerfed for dks

[small juniper]

imagine a world where they buff other trinkets instead of nerfing trinkets

[ember kernel]

Is this also for cata? Or just tww

[molten citrus]

the channel? its for retail

[cedar eagle]

cata 🤣

[calm palm]

I mean it’s good to nerf old stuff

[hazy breach]

Nah we had strong trinkets in dragonflight, now all items must be mid

[cedar eagle]

based

[ember kernel]

Ok buddy

[calm palm]

I’m still salty about sylv dagger staying bis through sepulcher

[warm veldt]

low key hate the fuck out of strong trinkets

[small juniper]

yes dragonflight trinkets were great

[sly shore]

at least they are proud of the trinket design, and that's what matters

[small juniper]

i loved pressing a bomb

every 10 seconds

[jaunty heath]

I need an ashes pretty please

[small juniper]

ashes only good df trinket

[hazy breach]

I meant numerically

[jaunty heath]

I mean house of cards and ashes aren’t really different design wise

[molten citrus]

if looking for classic discussion we have #classic-discussion, it's a little slow there but there are other classic discord servers linked in the pins of that channel as well

[sly shore]

I wonder what expansion people will stop one shotting every boss on release in classic

[jaunty heath]

You press and forget

It’s just tuned ass

[hazy breach]

Like grieftorch and ashes were like 12% trinkets, most trinkets now are like 8%. Even spymaster and transmitter are like 10-11%

[small juniper]

ah yeah grieftorch too

[ember kernel]

Thats what i was looking for ty

[small juniper]

very nice

[calm palm]

Grieftorch in sales

[molten citrus]

[hazy breach]

Gems and embellishments are also way weaker now

[cedar eagle]

Thank you for resetting my grieftorch

[ember kernel]

Yes but there is a cata classic game also....

[calm palm]

[limber folio]

can i actually still view s1 bis gear for sub anywhere

or do i gotta use waybackmachine/archive

[shrewd lantern]

was grieftorch even as strong

as that neltharus trinket for int specs

[calm palm]

Grieftorch was strong, but also gave you even more power as shit fell apart

[shrewd lantern]

i love inflating wipe details

[sour forum]

Beacon crits

[calm palm]

So like yeah if you play perfect and no one dies it prob fell behind

[clear osprey]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[thorny zodiac]

im seeing alot of sub rouges since patch? Is Sub now the best rouge spec for m+ and raid? 😮

[hard trellis]

gg sub dead

[dawn robin]

delete

[jaunty umbra]

yes

cuz sub is cooler

[half comet]

do we have updated sims with nerfed eye of kezan

to compare trinkets

[molten citrus]

pins

[half comet]

that was after a fix in apl

[molten citrus]

nvm that might be pre nerf

[half comet]

not the nerf

no?

[molten citrus]

ya think so my b

iirc it's still bis

[half comet]

ya just want to how much more BiS

cuz everyone wants it so

[molten citrus]

it was already really close on the last sims

but not 100% sure about the gap now

[hazy breach]

Theres like 9 trinkets all simming the same

[jaunty heath]

Blow up

[molten citrus]

i think you can also sim it yourself already right

[hazy breach]

yes

[swift tinsel]

There’s a handful at like .1-.2% of eye now so there’s options if unluck

[frigid dragon]

How do you sim the gems right? When I used the sim it only was putting one new type of gem at once instead of mixing them up?

[hazy breach]

Just put mastery+vers ones

and a single vers+mastery

[steel zinc]

you must sim latest

I had other results then

[molten citrus]

mhm

the ss i posted was from fuu's sheet

not a sim i just did

[steel zinc]

oh ok nvm. He didnt rerun stuff yet he told me

he will like at the end of the we

[molten citrus]

[steel zinc]

but I did myself and goon squad thing was simming best

[bleak night]

i get to goon all raid?

[acoustic lodge]

For M+,

should you hold cds till youur 2nd charge of dance is at 40 seconds or 30?

[thorny zodiac]

DS sims highest for me in 5 min 5t sims but trickster sims highest in 1min 5t sims?

[hazy breach]

Energy drink, ritual knife, goon, magnets, motorcycle one, pacemaker and eye all seem fine within like 0.2%

[thorny zodiac]

Soo, ds is better for high keys or?

[cedar eagle]

nah

[swift tinsel]

Ds is only better at being a spec worse than trickster

[hazy breach]

Ideally you should have dance at atleast 40s left when flag gets ready

[jaunty umbra]

hey ds has a cooler icon

[cedar eagle]

based

[jaunty heath]

Did they make coupe sounds crunchier

They are the same ones that you got when dashing

But somehow they also sound more present

[jaunty umbra]

yea its changed

much better now

[hard trellis]

sub deadge

[thorny zodiac]

but its DS for ST/raid righht?

[mental saffron]

https://mythicstats.com/dps

Are we going into a Sub M+ meta or is Casual just making it look like it?

[molten citrus]

And for dungeons pretty much

[lucid jackal]

Brand new website spotted

[hard trellis]

casual needs to stop playing so we can dodge nerfs

[sly shore]

Yeah cos casualaddict is the barometer for class tuning

[hard trellis]

fire C TEIR

[jaunty umbra]

nono thats clearly liquid maximums tierlist

[thorny zodiac]

stop confusing me

[mental saffron]

This is a list that just pulls raw data from completed 12-18 keys

[sly shore]

I just love the insane takes that a single player is responsible for classes getting nerfed

[hard trellis]

it was an obvious joke

[sly shore]

Man, that one guy got rank one boss damage they should nerf that one class

[molten citrus]

?

[lucid jackal]

I mean sub is good, but like, the sample size on PTR is fucking tiny

[alpine wraith]

gotta nerf rikuxd warrior is too strong

is that how it works

[hazy breach]

Its not PTR

[nocturne storm]

sub is die?? T.T

[solar geode]

sorry guys they saw me going crazy and had to nerf sub. my bad guys.

[lucid jackal]

Its LIVE keys!?

Thats crazy

[alpine wraith]

yea was a good run

[hazy breach]

Yes

[alpine wraith]

yea we got a baseline increase of 18%

when we were already decent

wonder what happens

[broken swallow]

Isn't this what happened to OL and Fury last tier?

[ashen ibex]

Bye rogue

Cya next tuning

Kek?

[alpine wraith]

rip rogue was a good run

[hard trellis]

[sly shore]

Ah so it's entirely useless info

[solar geode]

why ae we all dooming its like a tiny nerf!

[hazy breach]

As most things are

[delicate steeple]

Can I doom now pls

[sly shore]

No, one player did not get an entire class nerfed

[solar geode]

guys.... dont bee negative..... bee free.........

[hard trellis]

my dad works at blizz and he said they are buffing assa 5% again

bye sub

[solar geode]

hate assassination

[hazy breach]

Then dont play it

[solar geode]

nah not the rogue spec

[sly shore]

None of us play at a level where spec choice matters, let's be real

[plush roost]

Should buff plague damage some more to compensate smile

[solar geode]

just assassination in general

like irl

[sly shore]

[solar geode]

not a fan

[plush roost]

Make DS the meta play, make us suffer

[solar geode]

it would be funny if they removed it and then added some wacky new spec though

[fickle mason]

Doomed gonna play feral

[sly shore]

Circes circlet nerfed

[alpine wraith]

for real

man i made a video talking about why keeping it was good

well not uploading that one

[slate lantern]

[alpine wraith]

ah wait it was only the exploit on dying en masse

nvm

SAFE

[slate lantern]

🔙

[plush roost]

Wait i just read the nerfs

These are useless!

[fickle mason]

Judging from this weeks raid results are we still poised well for entering undermine?

[alpine wraith]

yea we will be weak 1 beastst

[fickle mason]

Can u guys suck for a week so we dont get nerfed more

[bleak night]

i can do better than a week

[strong drift]

I’ll take one for the team and suck all tier

[small juniper]

youre literally yellow name

[strong drift]

TRUE

And yet I ended up playing outlaw less than both other specs last tier

[solemn creek]

imagine blizzard balancing: ok too much power in tier piece.. lets give them baseline: neutral change but less power from tier, so good

1 week later: they do too much damage now, lets nerf XD

this is how it looks

[hazy breach]

I mean we still had some of the best tier

[alpine wraith]

well the dmg swing was not big

they just didnt like big boorst

[solemn creek]

thats fair, its just a weird balance change

[strong drift]

“Imagine blizzard balancing.”

[hazy breach]

Raid balance is always good

[alpine wraith]

they want us to feel our toes when that big goremaw crits

[hazy breach]

After like first 2 weeks

[alpine wraith]

BIG 5m crits

so big

[solar geode]

kid named marksmanship bug:

[alpine wraith]

it is almost 1 hit of sec tech

[solemn creek]

i just remember them nerfing rogue in df season 1 cose they looked good on first few week, but then we just fall off and never got buffed back

[small juniper]

the main thing that sucks about sub is scaling w gear

after u get weapon everything is just

2k dps increase

so u start by blasting

[solar geode]

guys is it true that blizzard hates rogues and only loves mages

[small juniper]

then u just lose eventually

[strong drift]

No no blizzard hates warriors

Fury specifically

[thorny zodiac]

why are u suppose to vanish in the opnerer?

[solemn creek]

ya, exacly not trying to doom, just feeling this is the same repeat as last time, and its weird. but eh, when they fire 80% of their employee, thats what we get.. at least were getting some attention

so theres hope there..

same for warlock, they were ignored a lot

[alpine wraith]

yea rogue in s2

is get weapon

[solemn creek]

and they are mostly there now in the balance manifesto

[alpine wraith]

get even lfr tier

blast

[solid yacht]

whats the verdict on the new nerfs? How much is sub affected?

[alpine wraith]

look at others getting items

say it is what it is

[solemn creek]

pin

[alpine wraith]

not much

[solid yacht]

ty

sub>ass still it seems

[jaunty heath]

Nothing is better than ass

So that’s cap

[solid yacht]

https://tenor.com/view/what-did-he-say-meme-gif-23373334

[molten citrus]

Premed

[strange chasm]

guys sub still op because of raid parry buff

[azure mauve]

ill never forgive blizz for what they did to outlaw in season 1 DF

got nerfed like 3 times, never recovered

[solid yacht]

Yeah df s1 was lit for outlaw

[rancid axle]

isn't coldblood+secret technique macro good? for the 2nd secret technique usage

[molten citrus]

It’d be the same amount of buttons

[hard trellis]

macros are for chumps

manual gamers only

[smoky vault]

No because now you only want to cb, without secret technique nerfed.

[molten citrus]

But as long as you have a naked Tech bind yeah it’s fine

[rancid axle]

y same amount of buttons on bars but only pressing one on 2nd tech, im too lazy

[rancid axle]

[molten citrus]

Ye nothing wrong with that

Some people do it

[rancid axle]

nice perfect ty

btw, got a question, on m+ when do we start using ss+bp instead of evis? pulls bigger than +5?

[solid yacht]

8 or more

[molten citrus]

That should be in the pins

It’s not 8

[rancid axle]

oh, i'll check

[solid yacht]

12 or more

[rancid axle]

17 or more

only on necrotic

gotcha

[solid yacht]

atleast 50+

[small juniper]

7+ as trickster

[rancid axle]

y just saw it on pins, +7

cool,thanks guys

[small juniper]

np

[swift tinsel]

Is simc updated with the changes?

Haven’t had a chance to check the spell data yet

No worries if not, they’re still fresh

[median wren]

Is subtletly insane or what?

[solid yacht]

decent

[rocky ocean]

Yes, we need more nerfs

[lilac stag]

Just one less button to press to fire it off together.

[molten citrus]

Ye ik

[tribal blade]

i think it's better to have a sectec+CB macro for your 2nd sectec in cds

[lilac stag]

It’s the one macro I still like besides blades

[tribal blade]

like you said 1 less button press

[hushed kelp]

Do we swap out Legendary Skipper for the ring or na?

[sour girder]

is there any command to macro to cancel SHADOW DANCE? also is it a ok to cancel it?

[tepid trellis]

why would you ever wanna cancel shadow dance?

[small juniper]

i have a stealth macro that cancels dance out of combat so u can stealth

no other reason to

[tepid trellis]

was about to say that, open world shit is the only place you would wanna do that

[lilac stag]

@tepid trellis how did LA raid go?

[tepid trellis]

pretty aite

[slate lantern]

is this recount lmao

oh

last ark

nvm im silly

[sour girder]

sorry mate, im here from outlaw im just very confused about some stuff, specially the way that i have more cleave than fucking outlaw xd

[midnight geyser]

Ensure Fazed is up on the target before using Coup de Grace.

how do iu go about this

dont those like automotically happen when im doing my regualr toation

[hard trellis]

put faze on the target

[midnight geyser]

like how can i prevent

[sour girder]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[sour girder]

@midnight geyser use LE's wa

[warm wyvern]

how impactful change are on Sub guys ?

[midnight geyser]

ahh i see

[midnight geyser]

im running guys edit

[molten citrus]

pins

[midnight geyser]

ill try le's but guy is what ive legit been running for two years

[warm wyvern]

am sorry mate didnt get u

[sour girder]

you can just delete the part of the aura u dont like

and use a small 1

[midnight geyser]

look at the top right

[steel zinc]

What are the nerfs to the ring?

[midnight geyser]

where it is yellow

those are the pins

@warm wyvern

[swift tinsel]

Queen's gem nerf

[steel zinc]

So no effect on us

[molten citrus]

its assumed to be around a 2-3% nerf

[small juniper]

well a little bit

the ring nerf is not a lot

sub nerf is 2-3% yes

[swift tinsel]

well

silver lining

we reach max stacks easier

[steel zinc]

Asking for ring not sub nerf

[swift tinsel]

gigachad move

[midnight geyser]

are we supposed to be spreading fazed or does it rlly only apply to main target

and when it says shurkien in 3+ with flawless form up

[steel zinc]

Sectech does that

[midnight geyser]

ahh

[swift tinsel]

yeah sectech fazes mobs it hits

[small juniper]

fazed isnt that relevant in aoe other than obv your coup

ur main thing to manage is ur buff

that makes u aoe w evis

[midnight geyser]

whats the target coutn for shurkien then

its dependent on the amoutn of targets fazed no?

3+ i shurkien 2-1 i just backstab?

[swift tinsel]

2 for storm

outside dance

[steel zinc]

I want to have FW on targets. That's why u storm

You don't backstab in aoe

[midnight geyser]

so storm is more efficient in 2+ targets?

[swift tinsel]

yes

[steel zinc]

Yes

[midnight geyser]

always tohught it was 3-4, interesting

[swift tinsel]

bc it gives cp per target hit

[midnight geyser]

does that apply to both st and aoe builsd

[swift tinsel]

in st you bs

or strike

in aoe, depends on target count

for trickster at least

[small juniper]

u strike on aoe too

[swift tinsel]

ds is 2 bc bp is stronger

[midnight geyser]

strilke until 7

[small juniper]

theres stuff written in places

[swift tinsel]

yeah unless its like giga high targets and even then strike is better bc it can proc unseen blade

[molten citrus]

even in dance u only storm once to get up FW afaik

on 7

[midnight geyser]

gotcha

also why do weak auras have coup de grace trackers

[swift tinsel]

because coup affects decision making

[midnight geyser]

how so?

if i procced coup that means i must have fazed on my target

[swift tinsel]

it also has implications for when you spend it vs secret technique because of disorienting strikes

[rain kernel]

fellow subbers....what flask to use for m+? vers? mast? or the lgbtq one?

[swift tinsel]

and wasting unseen blade procs

[midnight geyser]

outside of dance?

[swift tinsel]

in cases where dance isn't up when you sod/sectech, sure

[midnight geyser]

i thought sectec we only send outside of dance with sd+sod or just sod if we need to bank on sd and we can get it (sectec) back up before flag

[swift tinsel]

there are times where sod and sectech are ready but dance won't be able to be doubled in flag

usually a skyfury thing

[midnight geyser]

so at that point ill send sod and a sectech

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[midnight geyser]

but waht does that have to do with coup?

[swift tinsel]

when you have coup ready, you want to spend that before sectech

[midnight geyser]

ah

because shadow strike

will build them coup stacks

[swift tinsel]

so its worth knowing when you have coup ready

yeah

[midnight geyser]

i see

[swift tinsel]

otherwise you'd sectech at 4 escalating stacks and the next strike which would have generated a stack, wouldn't

[midnight geyser]

yup

so just to make sure i understand shurkein storm right

2+ targets i use it no matter what (outside of dance) to build, regardless of talents (assuming hero talent is trickster)

[swift tinsel]

yeah, outside dance you storm because its better cp gen than bs

[twilit phoenix]

bruh I can't wait for a goremaw's bite season

[swift tinsel]

in dance, you strike both for damage and because it procs UB

[small juniper]

was s3 df buddy

u missed it

lasted for a solid week

[swift tinsel]

iirc maintaining flawless form doesn't matter outside dance

[twilit phoenix]

god I wish that were me

[midnight geyser]

gotcha

also

[swift tinsel]

might be a question for a bigger brain than mine

[midnight geyser]

when im going into burst windows

it should look something like 0cp>flag>symbol+dance>shadowstrike>shadowblade>sectech?

[small juniper]

u wanna flag with full cp

ideally

[swift tinsel]

if you're gonna flag, you want max cp

[small juniper]

so u can insta finish

[midnight geyser]

so i would flag evi

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[midnight geyser]

then go into symbol+dance?

[small juniper]

prob flag rupture

if u are on a pull

[swift tinsel]

7cp - flag - finisher

[midnight geyser]

gotcha

[swift tinsel]

even 6 is okay

[midnight geyser]

so the opener sequence is what we copy for burst windows

[swift tinsel]

essentially

you can skip the vanish evisc if you have snd up

[midnight geyser]

i fuckin hate in shadowdance building to 5cp cuz then i gotta build some more

[swift tinsel]

yeah its annoying

[midnight geyser]

i usually have vanish on cd because i send it outside of burst for cdr

and premed

[swift tinsel]

I tried simming if its worth shuriken storming or shuriken tossing at 5cp in dance but its not lol

[swift tinsel]

same, I don't vanish in the opener anymore

I kinda play it like old dust and vanish after cd's

its dps neutral

[midnight geyser]

aha

saves energy

[swift tinsel]

its like 2.3-2.7k dps loss lol

[midnight geyser]

ty for the help

i got a lot more learnign to do before raid haha

[swift tinsel]

sure thing!

its a bumpy road to start but once you get the hang of it its pretty easy to adjust to its quirks

and if the aoe stuff is confusing you can pretty safely just play the single target rotation and not be totally throwing

you're mostly there to obliterate bosses lol

and we're very good at that

we just also happen to be able to cleave a bunch of that burst in aoe without having to sacrifice st damage which is pretty awesome

[midnight geyser]

yeah

i feel like ive got the hang of the base rotation

now its just fitting things into their proper places and slowly adding a minmax here and there

[swift tinsel]

that's honestly the best approach

[tacit aspen]

if coup de grace is up when we go into a shadow dance window, do we want to let it rip before sectech? if so do we still want to hold supercharge for sec tec?

[tepid trellis]

you get 2 stacks of super charger

when you SoD

[tacit aspen]

lol oh

[tribal blade]

during cds you want to sectec then coup

on regular dances it's kinda w/e order iirc

[tepid trellis]

during cds as trickster you can coup first

you have enough cdr to get it back

generally speaking

[tribal blade]

ah ok interesting

[random hare]

[tribal blade]

i like to play on the side of caution

[random hare]

Fucking prepatch nerf

[tribal blade]

because my dumbass might fuck up a refund

[molten citrus]

it's all your fault rossman

[midnight geyser]

do i need to land on a supercharged combo pointed for it to activate? or so long as im above it

[tepid trellis]

its entirely passive

[midnight geyser]

alright

so dont think abt it

[tepid trellis]

its just +2cp

[midnight geyser]

lowkey miss er

[tepid trellis]

on your next two finishers

[swift tinsel]

changing it from old ER landing to this is a W

[tepid trellis]

yup

[midnight geyser]

it felt nice on outlaw

[swift tinsel]

ER plus old ShT could be so troll

[tepid trellis]

i used to do 360s

in raid

to land on them

[midnight geyser]

lowkey

dreadbaldes

blades

[random hare]

@granite river

Told u guys

[swift tinsel]

they nerfed our tier set too

[molten citrus]

i kinda enjoyed it

[tepid trellis]

not like a 2% nerf is gonna do fuck all

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[random hare]

[midnight geyser]

sub is still broken

[small juniper]

it is literally over

[midnight geyser]

ts feelin like s2 SL(if im remembering right)

[swift tinsel]

I just remember feeling so tilted when I'd miss a charged cp bc I'd get a proc right as I'd finish

[random hare]

It might be over honestly for rogue in m+

We needed buffs

[tepid trellis]

m+ mini gamemode

dont care

[random hare]

We aren’t doing good numbers whatsoever in s2

And

[swift tinsel]

I like how the blue post said tier nerfs with accompanying baseline buffs

[random hare]

Raid nerf is weird as fuck

[swift tinsel]

but our baseline buff went to sin

[tepid trellis]

hopefully our dmg profile can make up for our shitty sim dps

[random hare]

Rogue is fucked well play sin for raid gg

[swift tinsel]

yeah I think it'll even out

if I play sin in raid its bc I'm dead and someone else is playing my account

[molten citrus]

sin: "you gonna eat that?"
sub: ...
sin: yoink
sub:

[tribal blade]

oh you're right what the fuck

[swift tinsel]

lmao

[tribal blade]

they just decided we didnt deserve baseline

[swift tinsel]

They hit us with the bait and switch

[tribal blade]

ASSholes

[small juniper]

u guys acting like 1 rogue isnt mandatory in raid

[swift tinsel]

tbf maybe the 18% buff was an overshot

[small juniper]

for 3% dmg reduction

[tepid trellis]

ehm

[swift tinsel]

and by that I mean they fucked up

[tepid trellis]

3.6%

[small juniper]

too many button presses

[swift tinsel]

its all cool bc we still remove parry

[tepid trellis]

better keep that .6

[swift tinsel]

I just tell my raid leader that

[tribal blade]

maybe they wanted to buff sectec by 5%

[tepid trellis]

perfect sub tuning is when its still very strong

[tribal blade]

and accidently nerfed it

[tepid trellis]

but flies under the radar

so no fotm andies shows up

[random hare]

[swift tinsel]

dude its been bad

[tepid trellis]

those are the blssed times

[swift tinsel]

just the last day or two

[tribal blade]

that was sub at the end of this tier

[swift tinsel]

I almost muted sub channel earlier today

for the first time ever

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/sukuna-malevolent-shrine-copium-gif-17048246567311451549

[random hare]

[swift tinsel]

I gotta catch up on solo leveling

speaking of anime

[random hare]

Dude

That rogue nerf is sad

Man

[swift tinsel]

Agreed

[random hare]

Cba playing sin rogue dude

Fuck

[swift tinsel]

not gamebreaking, but annoying

[random hare]

Especially that they buffed arterial precision

It’s such a weird ass buff

[swift tinsel]

the sectech and tier nerfs are a double whammy bc sectech is still fucking bugged with the 4pc

[random hare]

They need to revert it

[swift tinsel]

I had one hit for 1.7mil on ptr

with 10 stacks, sod+dance and cb

[random hare]

Playing sin rogue raid build in m+ is absolutely cringe

[swift tinsel]

in the shadow hit

[random hare]

The rogue dev is clueless as fuck

It’s crazy

[swift tinsel]

there's just no direction it feels like

I said earlier its like they had a bag

with every azerite power, legendary, and some cov abilities

and they grabbed a handful and threw them in our tree

and let them settle like a plinko board

[random hare]

I wonder

Why they buff sin when outlaw is worse than every spec in the game

[molten citrus]

at least other stuff also caught nerfs

like sham etc

[random hare]

Did sham got nerfed?

How big

[swift tinsel]

sham going that long being that strong

[molten citrus]

ya

[swift tinsel]

is criminal

[molten citrus]

roughly 5%

[swift tinsel]

lmao

[molten citrus]

they can't check until it's in game

afaik

[swift tinsel]

so they're just 15% above everyone

[twilit phoenix]

BM getting buffed

[swift tinsel]

instead of 20%

[molten citrus]

dh also got nerfed a bit

[bleak night]

me rerolling to bm so i can hold down 1 and 2 and go afk

[molten citrus]

a lot of melee nerfs ngl

[bleak night]

well yeah fuck melee

[molten citrus]

lock got nerfed

[tepid trellis]

i like how the dk tc is saying unholy is still "unplayable"

doesent look that unplayable to me bud

[bleak night]

lmao

[molten citrus]

l0l

[bleak night]

most ethical dk player

[molten citrus]

feral also caught a bit of a nerf

warrior nerf is just... hilarious

[tepid trellis]

unholy sims like 2.9mil

[bleak night]

nah feral players are rejoicing

owlweaving is fucking ass

[molten citrus]

i was thinking of the pvp nerfs mb

[swift tinsel]

yeah they're just mad DC is making up as much of their damage as it is

[bleak night]

oh

the minigame

[swift tinsel]

or its like spriest

[bleak night]

yeah i didnt read those notes

[molten citrus]

their bite got nerfed a bit in pvp

[swift tinsel]

when they're crazy overtuned, get nerfed, then cry about not getting compensation buffs

[molten citrus]

bro

check the warrior nerfs in pvp compared to pve

[bleak night]

unholy never recovered from the puzzle box nerfs

[molten citrus]

pvp

pve

[swift tinsel]

unplayable

[random hare]

The dk tc is a big ass monkey I remember him telling ion “dw unholy doesn’t need a nerf we don’t scale all that well with ilvl or someshit” proceeds to be the best spec end of that tier holy fuck

[swift tinsel]

dumpster tier

[random hare]

It fucked everything in the ass

[swift tinsel]

wait Taez is dooming about uh

[random hare]

Just like now

[swift tinsel]

I like how any time big pulls are the play UH shows up and absolutely craters every other spec in the game

[limber folio]

yeah, cause muh disease

[random hare]

Guys

[limber folio]

the more the merrier

[random hare]

How big is the disc priest nerf

[molten citrus]

healer stuffs

[swift tinsel]

yeah that's outside my paygrade

that's a Jak question

[worthy pulsar]

when is new sims coming out. are the rogue scientists sleeping

[swift tinsel]

let the EU bros sleep

[still zephyr]

i dont wanna scroll up that far but thoughts on the nerfs?

[swift tinsel]

we're fine

[still zephyr]

good

fuck assassin 😄

[swift tinsel]

its annoying to see but we aren't dedge

[still zephyr]

tettles says that he still thinks sub will be better but idk guess we will see

[bleak night]

what does ja say about it though

[swift tinsel]

I heard Tettles can beat sub rogues in keys

👀

[worthy pulsar]

is the cyrce circlet nerfed affecting us?

[analog hearth]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[astral narwhal]

i played sin last season and im really looking forward to sub this season, i hope they dont touch the balancing between the two anymore

[crystal kraken]

is Atrophic poison pretty mandatory for mythic prog? enough to need 1 rogue?

[small epoch]

its not mandatory but its pretty strong

very doable to get cutting edge without

[woven jay]

It's one of the ones that would get dropped earliest if the class was bad enough but rogue would have to be historically bad for it not to be worth

[crystal kraken]

on the fence of maining Sub or Havoc for this tier but we dont have a rogue yet for the debuff

[woven jay]

Not required for CE but if you have one you should run it

[small epoch]

^

sub has the additional benefit of daggers are just yours when they drop

[tepid trellis]

this was the amounnt of dmg it prevented on Ansurek last week for me

[small epoch]

especially early on

[tepid trellis]

which is around 344k hps

[crystal kraken]

damn ok

[tepid trellis]

which is quite fckin good

[paper iron]

Atro is really gréât and welcome early progress

[tepid trellis]

its basically the same as devo aura

[paper iron]

It s even better sometimes weirdly. I remember my atro doing more than devo on fyrrak

[tepid trellis]

if alot of the dmg intake

is from the boss itself

and the devo is from a Ret/prot

then it is stronger

[paper iron]

Probably not à hpala tiers so atro rocks

[tribal blade]

people shit on atrophic for not working on certain mechanics

but it's good

[bleak night]

atro either sucks or is fantastic

depending on whether or not i need to convince my rl to let me reroll

[limber folio]

not enough

wait how do you even find that in logs

im trying to but maybe im not searching good enough

[tribal blade]

you made me just double check if i was accidently in the sin channel again

[bleak night]

[swift tinsel]

under Healing - Mitigations

[tribal blade]

who's gonna tell him

[limber folio]

cheers

[tulip gorge]

They actually nerfed sub

[fossil frost]

where is the patch notes for the nerf?

[plush roost]

Wowhead bluepost tracker

[warm crest]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[dry plank]

Give 10% aura buff -> people complain in season intermission -> nerf burst

Hella great logic )

[novel mirage]

So is sin better now for M+ or we still rocking sub

[tepid trellis]

its gonna be fine

Assa will suck ass on bosses in m+ and sub recieving a 2% nerf isnt gonna change anything really

[round latch]

sub is still gonna take over

[vale osprey]

Does it change the fact that we're likely playing Sub in raid? How much did it actually hurt sub?

[novel mirage]

Saw today outlaw is the play for raid

[tepid trellis]

haha funny guy this one

[round latch]

[tepid trellis]

big joker

[karmic hull]

Ain’t no way outlaw is raid

[novel mirage]

https://tenor.com/view/angry-annoyed-bad-vibes-throw-it-whats-going-on-gif-16325118

[tepid trellis]

bigger chance of lighting striking the same place twice

[novel mirage]

wait im drunk it was sin that was better

[rugged condor]

I wonder what it would take for outlaw to be the meta prog spec

It already does good dmg. The dmg profile is just balls

[bleak night]

a cd

[rugged condor]

Dreadblades would fix it surely

[novel mirage]

give them vigor on a baseline talent

[round latch]

a rework

[bleak night]

an actual cd

[novel mirage]

Outlaw is fine, they just struggle with energy efficiency

[round latch]

''just''

the spec needs haste breakpoint to function

thats far from fine

[rugged condor]

Isn't it like 18-20%

[tepid trellis]

it doing 20% more dmg than 2nd best

[novel mirage]

did it for monks, surely they will for Outlaw

[round latch]

lets not jump into details,its irrelevant

[lucid jackal]

To be tuned higher

[hidden isle]

idk i like ol dmg profile

consistent dmg is nice

[tepid trellis]

yeh just isnt very handy

[rugged condor]

One day I'll prog as outlaw

Surely

[tepid trellis]

played this game since forever

[round latch]

raid is sin or sub,always and forever