subtlety

[molten citrus]

fr

and ramfam

and ryfie

[swift tinsel]

did james actually go back to school or is that just a meme

[normal compass]

He's going to Harvard to crunch number

[lilac stag]

Mathematically unpossible to unalive boss.

[wet robin]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[steel zinc]

he did

[swift tinsel]

Good for him

[patent citrus]

bro what talents u play ?

[steel zinc]

I mean ngl if people think they can do this rwf forever. You gotta quit at some point and move on

[swift tinsel]

and here I thought he was Runescaping all this time

[lilac stag]

You do that between cds

Studies take over CDs

[molten citrus]

Oh he 100% has been

Zero exp waste

[swift tinsel]

lmao what a chad

[molten citrus]

I saw him online during one of the last League events, not the most recent one but the one before it

I haven’t logged on other than to check something rq in a while now

[steel zinc]

Are there any broken WQ trinkets in 11.1 for week 1?

[swift tinsel]

hard to say without knowing what world quest rewards will be week 1

[steel zinc]

its live on ptr just I am tbh to lazy to hunt down WQ on ptr

[swift tinsel]

could be like Divine Bell in SL where its up every few weeks

[swift tinsel]

how bad was the mage gap?

[random hare]

bad enough

shaman got pi

sub does different things tho

in keys

so that overall is kinda fake

sub is rly good

[swift tinsel]

how was boss dam?

[hazy breach]

Updated the pin with some more recent numbers

FYI

[random hare]

equal i think

we all did similar boss dmg

[molten citrus]

[random hare]

averaging 2m dps

st

[swift tinsel]

noice, solid

[swift tinsel]

what tinkers brought the overall up?

[hazy breach]

Most of it is just stuff we were already doing ingame, the sim just wasnt doing them properly all the time

[swift tinsel]

ohh gotcha

[hazy breach]

Like it sometimes had a global or two inbetween dances

And it didnt force refresh rupture before flag

[swift tinsel]

Appreciate your hard work 🫡

[grave delta]

we are back to s1 flag

it's

no fun allowed

[dusty totem]

How does ptr gear scaling work?

[hazy breach]

Trickster still plays well and is fun. Just a bit sad that we didnt get the nuclear codes to our burst, have to stick with regular bomb bursts

[hazy breach]

When you go into a dungeon all the items you have equiped turn into X ilvl

[dusty totem]

Yeah but what is the X

[hazy breach]

Depends

[swift tinsel]

gotta solve for X

get algebraic

[hazy breach]

Its lower in heroic testing than in mythic testing

for example

[dusty totem]

I was looking at m+

[hazy breach]

[dusty totem]

Was only because i was wondering what ilvl peps where at when duing huge numbers in m+ ptr

[granite river]

678

[dusty totem]

Thanks

[steel zinc]

ty gj

so the 1% is just margin of error @hazy breach

[hazy breach]

No

The margin of error is 0.1% generally in sims

[autumn flame]

kul tharok in top melees the closest target

[steel zinc]

ok

[steel zinc]

once your zoned it you can scaled according to the itemlevel required. So normal raid was like 619 itemlevel and +10 mythic keystone was 665 and like a +15 is max itemlevel

[clever delta]

we gained 2% cool

we r so back

[hazy breach]

Huh

[clever delta]

from -2,5 to -1%

sorry its 1,5

[alpine wraith]

we are in the negatives and thx to enchant buffs

so it is a sad day

but it is what it is

[lilac stag]

Enchant buffs are for everyone. We’re still nerfed.

Bob Ross it however you want.

[swift tinsel]

painting sad little trees

[alpine wraith]

im not bob rossing

[random hare]

@molten citrus

[alpine wraith]

i have my whole face painted

[random hare]

the deady comp

[alpine wraith]

white

playing without shaman

alt f4

[molten citrus]

?

[lilac stag]

https://giphy.com/gifs/btqU9V0Z48j3in2xBu

[molten citrus]

@random hare what character window thing are you using?

[random hare]

MDI CHAMPION CHAMPION OF THE WORLD CRIMS THE BLASTER

[hazy breach]

He was forced to play sub without skyfury

[swift tinsel]

fate worse than death

[molten citrus]

Aladdine the one true blaster frfr

i haven't seen a single prot pal come close to that guys dps

[alpine wraith]

big blaster

[wooden kernel]

wait so sub is dead or nah

[molten citrus]

no

[swift tinsel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923898501529600/1342596269193039943/9l2o5h.gif

[alpine wraith]

dps is almost the same burst gone way down

we are sad

[swift tinsel]

Dave is now David

[alpine wraith]

also in sims right now before more changes we are middle of the sad pack

also tier set is not a huge win anymore for week 1 prowess

so well

we have atro

pog

[wooden kernel]

wtf 😡

[swift tinsel]

I just tell my raid I make them not parry so don't look at my opener dmg

(still gonna beat them tho)

[void ocean]

But we can now go to the toilet between the dances, dont have to wait for the raid break... So I got that going for me, which is nice

[hazy breach]

Just to clarify, sub still has some of the highest burst in the game

It just had by far the highest on ptr before this change

[molten citrus]

but sub got +10% damage baseline, it should be very good w1

[alpine wraith]

yes being down like 20 or 15% burst is there general dmg is almost the same

[swift tinsel]

Boomie and sometimes UH are the only ones who come close to my openers

[alpine wraith]

yea but right now you kinda invite rogue because daggers drop and not waste themn

[wooden kernel]

in raid ya not m+?

[alpine wraith]

you are not givint it the good trinkets/jastor

[hazy breach]

Ye its way more than 10% for w1 since its also the trickster stuff (which is like 2-3%) and then the blades+sectech fix which is another 3%ish

[alpine wraith]

or even prio tier set after changes

basically warrios will craft a 2h go arms

[hazy breach]

If youre comparing to current live

[alpine wraith]

get a trinket from dungeons

[molten citrus]

ye true as well

[alpine wraith]

and do like 200k dps more than us

[swift tinsel]

nothing will stop my ascension to rank 1 trickster outlaw

[molten citrus]

?

[alpine wraith]

killing spree every 20s will

[swift tinsel]

I survived coup

[wooden kernel]

said still has highest burst in game, i was wondering to what regards or is it legit kinda same as current ssn

[alpine wraith]

we will have a bit more burst

[hazy breach]

Even on live sub bursts harder than assa

[alpine wraith]

just not the cool one that was possible before

[hazy breach]

Oh wait you said ssn not sin

Mb

Its slightly higher than live burst ye

[alpine wraith]

the one that got way higher was the 1:30 one

even more if you use pot on that one

[molten citrus]

we HAD the strongest burst in the game before the tier set change, now i don't think so, but still very very good burst

[alpine wraith]

because you have tier set stacked and also some stacks of kezan

if you manage to even get it LUL

[wooden kernel]

kk ty for reassurance ❤️ will just send it had lots of fun this ssn as sub

[alpine wraith]

i actually wonder if uhdk still has stronger burst that us now

they are also middle of the sad pack

but we should still get to around 5m in raid+

[swift tinsel]

uhdk are sim sandbaggers iirc

[molten citrus]

sims are sims

game is game

[alpine wraith]

what we can do is a lot of min maxing with subjective calls in M+ now

not dropping tier set is still quite good

[lucid jackal]

I'm pretty sure the only specs with more burst is like udk and fire? But only with lust

[alpine wraith]

yea that why uhdk has the opener one beat because they get extra stacks but our 1:30 should be the highest if we save pot

now if only we could get an external

actually i might see if one cheeky autumn at 45 secs lets us do an extra dance

[swift tinsel]

if true I'm gonna trade our hpal a stack of flasks for it lol

[deep adder]

fire???

[lucid jackal]

Is it fire? Or is it arcane

[swift tinsel]

fire cranks

[lucid jackal]

Idk abt mage this tier

[swift tinsel]

arcane has giga openers usually

[deep adder]

ye

[alpine wraith]

arcane is the bursty one yes

[deep adder]

arcane has huge burst

but not fire

[lucid jackal]

Might be arcane then my b I thought fire was big burst this patch

Might have misheard

[deep adder]

no worries

[swift tinsel]

fire is usually the aoe powerhouse

unless their tuning is wacky

[alpine wraith]

fire has had big burst once upon a time

but now they are kinda like a ramping cdr combust thingy

where they do dmg and the more they can get their cdr on they keep that damage going

likely why they are going to be very good in high keys if not best

as pulls can last a long time

[lucid jackal]

But I mean yeah subs burst outside of lust is probably unmatched still

And a lot of the time, outside of lust is when you actually need huge burst damage

Like queen webs, or platform 1

[swift tinsel]

I could see it, or against any class without externals

[alpine wraith]

the good thing about sub is that you can control when you use dances

without losing much

so it is a very good prog spec

like even you can move flag a bit if needed

like in queen p1

or court

[swift tinsel]

why I usually keep a close eye on lorrgs

a bit easier to read than logs

[alpine wraith]

you can always ask here too

[swift tinsel]

for stuff like boss mechanic timers

[alpine wraith]

lots of us mythic raid or do m+

so likely we have our timers to share ahaha

[swift tinsel]

lol true, I usually have it up on my 2nd screen while we wait for folks pre-pull

was a much bigger thing when I was playing aug for a little while in df

[keen sinew]

so even post trasnmitter nerf next week, its still gonna be the best until we get the new on use stack deck trinket?

[hazy breach]

Yes

And probably until youve upgraded it quite a bit

Depending on what ilvls were talking about

[keen sinew]

ya i think ppl were basing it off heroic i thought

just wanted to make sure it was counting that in

[swift tinsel]

Heroic loses to House at like 658 iirc

[hazy breach]

Well ye but depends on what ilvl transmitter you have too

[jaunty heath]

Is 658 heroic house?

[swift tinsel]

Yeah, p sure hero track max is 665

so that's like mid-upgrade

[jaunty heath]

Thank god

But also

[autumn flame]

gorechop still bugged

[keen sinew]

so you wouldn't upgrade heroic transmitter until heroic house?

[jaunty heath]

Probably not getting it until late prog because everyone and their mom needs it

[hazy breach]

Ye i guess its lower now after tier nerf

[keen sinew]

aweomse, ty all ❤️

[swift tinsel]

might depend on your 2nd trinket but if you're going 1 on-use then yeah a 626 transmitter will get replaced by a 658 house of cards

lemme re-run the sim so I can say exactly

bc I feel like that might be a common question with not everyone having access to a max mythic transmitter and that number is already known

[jaunty heath]

Not having a transmitter is my biggest reservation about playing rogue this patch lol

[jade urchin]

since kyveza loot hated me i can confirm its a common question

[hazy breach]

Once you get a house of cards its fine

[keen sinew]

ya i killed myth kyveza only twice

got outlaw weapon, but that was it

neither trinket dropped for us

[jade urchin]

i got a dagger collection and thats about it

[swift tinsel]

Okay maybe not, they're equal at 662 now

lemme look into it

[keen sinew]

oh god

[lilac stag]

Heroic transmitter was slightly ahead of heroic house

For most people sanity wise play house

[jade urchin]

so replacing with hc house is only a slight loss dps wise

good to know

[solemn creek]

one thing for sure, sub is gonna be more fun then sin

[swift tinsel]

nah it'll be a a gain

[solemn creek]

XD

[swift tinsel]

that's at 662

[uneven scarab]

[swift tinsel]

and it caps at 665

plus no minigame

[jade urchin]

W

[swift tinsel]

I see this as an absolute win

[keen dome]

Same

no minigame

Pure win

[keen sinew]

so heroic caps at 665

[swift tinsel]

yep, heroic House is .3% over 626 transmitter

[keen sinew]

awesome

[lilac stag]

Run it with new tier

[keen sinew]

really appreciate the detailed answer, you da best @swift tinsel

[wild hornet]

hows sub looking for the next raid patch? will it struggle/get overshadowed by another rogue spec, cant make up my mind which spec to play

[jade urchin]

small enough for me to not chase that bitch ass orb again

[lilac stag]

Play what you enjoy most.

tuning is all over

[hidden oar]

I enjoy not playing wow, but I still play it...

[lilac stag]

Come back in a month

[chrome palm]

what guild gives the heroic house to a sub rogue for a .3% upgrade and a hit to burst damage?

that shit goes to the woyer

[tepid trellis]

warrior can also just play transmitter

so

[uneven scarab]

Anyone who was playing it before is basically gonna want cards

[swift tinsel]

this with a 626 transmitter?

[sinful zephyr]

How easy is the boss that drops it compared to princess? Was hard to get a pug kill...

[rustic mortar]

is there a good in depth video guide for sub ? or rather advanced tips / tricks

[alpine wraith]

it is not easy but no idea how it will work in pugs

i made some videos about that

also 11.1 things in the end seem to not change much

[swift tinsel]

and that's a pre-nerf transmitter too

[rustic mortar]

can u send me a link 🙂 ?

[swift tinsel]

658 house

[rustic mortar]

got u @alpine wraith

th one ? TWW 11.1 PTR Some more bugfixes and INITIAL changes to rotation explained subject to change

[alpine wraith]

actually forget about that one

because they nerfed tier set a lot

[alpine void]

we still vers mast in 11.1?

[alpine wraith]

yea

this one in the sheet should work

as for 11.1 changes apart from the 11.0.5 things is literally

using cold blood on second sec tech in cds

was already a win but not told kinda to do before as it was not as big

but now with tier etc it is just better

and holding for tier set rn is almost neutral

[alpine void]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[alpine wraith]

i will still do it kinda but it is not as important as before

[swift tinsel]

I'm on the fence, def gonna do it if there's a vuln phase but idk about beyond that

M+ obv diff

[alpine wraith]

it is just an experience you need to see on each occasion

sometimes you might want to gamble a bit more

[swift tinsel]

Yeah for sure

[alpine wraith]

as the stakes are not big

[swift tinsel]

not anymore

[alpine wraith]

yep unluck

also for the autumn thing you cant fit an extra dance in the first 1:30 but

you get chances of using one after cds in between cds and CB dance and other cds of your choosing

[swift tinsel]

saves me a stack of flasks

[lilac stag]

Yes

[swift tinsel]

🤷‍♂️

[jaunty sparrow]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[rustic mortar]

does this look ok as sub

[shell willow]

Lol your item level could be 300

[lilac stag]

For 600 ilvl?

[shell willow]

Just sim yourself and get the rotation down.

[lilac stag]

^ run top gear sim

mastery is criminally low for that ilvl.

so no idea what you’re running

[rustic mortar]

its 12k mastery 17k vers 4,7k crit

without flask

[fallow nimbus]

I have kinda the same stats

DS wants a lot of vers

[rustic mortar]

id rather play trickster

i am kinda burnt from DS assa

[fallow nimbus]

Good time with 11.1 around the corner and trickster looking good

[vernal junco]

ds sucks

[hazy breach]

Its interesting that the reason sub dislikes DS is not really related to the things assa hates about it

[rustic mortar]

yeah sub can prock it all day long

[hazy breach]

Ye but sub doesnt want to proc it on AoE, you'd rather not get darkest night

[lilac stag]

ive go to flip my rings back from crit to vers, but yeah, your master is low

[bleak night]

In general seeing how different specs react to the same tree has been interesting

[tepid trellis]

thats like 23% more mastery than i have

[lilac stag]

have you looted any gear yet?

[tepid trellis]

i have 23% vers

so

[lilac stag]

idk sims wanted me pushing mastery. Maybe race thing. Idk

at some point I recrafted ring & neck to crit mastery to mess around. Have to put those back.

[clever delta]

is stat prio same for s2

like vers mastery

crit not bad

[hazy breach]

yes

[young path]

Feel like this is healthier… or is this a nerf when accounting for the tier change?

Check ur mom

[wooden kernel]

are timings all the same for s2?

[bleak night]

[swift tinsel]

there shouldn't be much if any gameplay changes

[hazy breach]

Ye

[wooden kernel]

sweeet ty!

[swift tinsel]

you have the choice to hold or gamble your stacks but its essentially even

[rustic raven]

Damb so is sub dead or what

We garroting next ssn?

[bleak night]

https://tenor.com/view/it's-over-it's-genuinely-over-trout-trout-dying-trout-it's-over-gif-4267717049801794134

[swift tinsel]

does anyone use the simc desktop client thing? I can't quite get it to work *edit got it

[shell willow]

nah just load into raidbots

Havent used it in years to be frank

[wooden kernel]

i took a pve break and coming back worth to grind ring out of nah yall think?

*or

[shell willow]

Free damage is free

It will last for a decent chunk of the tier and the replacements are potentially from gallywix so depending on your raid teams skill that will be your barrier of entry or rng from the vault

[wooden kernel]

fair, will prob go do that then ty

[bleak night]

it doesnt take long to get either

[wooden kernel]

even the specific gems?

[bleak night]

just a bit of a questline then kill some shit

you can straight up buy one of the gems we use

and the other two come from event bosses that are basically always up

[shell willow]

yeah its not as annoying to get as the other rings theyve made

[wooden kernel]

i remember df one and wasnt a fan but ill look into this one ty

[proper latch]

Where are we now?

[clever delta]

idk how i feel about that there isnt much to farm from m+

[bleak night]

we're playing feral druid

[lilac stag]

Vault slots for mythic tier.

[vestal escarp]

It's never been more over

No supercharger to save us this time

終わりだ

[lilac stag]

[sudden bison]

Is sub looking better than sin for m+ or are we in for another sin season

[vale pine]

hard to predict

[void ocean]

we r all gonna be pirates

[vale pine]

it was 2 sin seasons now in both raiding and m+

i would not mind having a bit of a shake up there

but i also know a lot of people are happy if there is less diversity

[sudden bison]

If only

[sudden bison]

Really? Why? I always see ppl complain about the opposite

[vale pine]

people like to play assassiantion

thats why

[sudden bison]

Oh you’re talking about right specifically

Screw sin. Whack ass spec to play

[alpine wraith]

well the overall population does play sin mainly

[somber atlas]

ehh also there's probably some burnout with sub since it had Sepulcher + all 3 seasons of DF as the better raid spec too

[vale pine]

similar, people are typically not happy if outlaw is noticably ahead

its weird

i feel people are the happiest if sin is the best everywhere

[alpine wraith]

well if you only play the first 2 weeks of the tier you could say sub was played a lot

[bleak night]

thats because outlaw is an unholy abomination spawned from the depths of tartarus

[alpine wraith]

spoiler it wasnt

[vale pine]

and the other 2 specs can be ignored

[lucid jackal]

Sin is the noob spec so it makes sense

[alpine wraith]

yea same as bm

when MM or surv are good

the tears can make oceans

[vale pine]

I mean the worse thing to happen is DF

[bleak night]

hunters at least accept mm

[vale pine]

where sin was hyped during each patch cycle

[sudden bison]

Bring back the SS BP spam days

[vale pine]

to then get nerfed

and people feel forced to play sub

[bleak night]

when survival is meta you'd think blizzard committed personal atrocities against every hunter player

[vale pine]

the amount of outrage and crying i experienced due to that was insane

[somber atlas]

yeah but sub was genuinely super fun in s1 of DF and if peeps were mad sin wasnt it that's just whining imo

[vale pine]

and it also makes people feel a kind of hate towards playing sub

because sub was never hyped or good during change cycle

so you always needed to switch to something that you didn't know or had no fancy new bells and whistles

[somber atlas]

There's also some amount of lingering "subtlety is the pvp spec" mentality among the general WoW population which is dumb

[vale pine]

thats another problem

the wow palyerbase is acient

majority of the players are long term players

so established opinions are hard to change

like sin as the pve/raid spec

or sub as the pvp spec

[somber atlas]

those same people are mad Outlaw isn't Combat anymore too 😂

[vale pine]

even tho sin was now for a long time easier and similar if not more successful in pvp

hell outlaw was for a certain time rly good in pvp

[swift tinsel]

was just about to say this, the last AWC's I've watched were sin and outlaw

[vestal escarp]

Ol blasted in pvp since amirdrassil

[vale pine]

but thats just my 2c

i think its fine that sub stays as a niche spec

[swift tinsel]

Niches are important imo

[vale pine]

i hated that certain patches got seemingly actively designed to make people move away from it tho

[somber atlas]

Even "back in the day" which is what old pvp mentality people remember, it was more points in Sin during like WotLK PvP which everyone loves to fondly recall for pvp/arena balance. It was Mut/Prep until the very very very end where you could go full dance sub with enough armor pen

[vestal escarp]

Niche in what it does, not in what it can do

[lilac stag]

Keeps the riffraff out of the channel.

[vale pine]

just to be clear, i don't say it was intentionally but design decisions rly made a good point to not touch the spec ever again

[swift tinsel]

for sure

[vestal escarp]

Wdym?

[swift tinsel]

If you make sin good at aoe, execute, funnel

[vale pine]

e.g. seaosn 3 df

[swift tinsel]

why play the others

[vale pine]

the spec was deisgned in a way that would not appeal to even sub ains

*mains

the design was complex for no reason and this feedback was given multiple times

[bleak night]

spreadsheet gaming wooo

[vale pine]

turns out, people did not play sub even tho it was the ebst spec because of it

and now know for sure to not touch it because it is the time they remember trying it

[swift tinsel]

and it also suffers from recency bias bc its not that long ago this happened

[lilac stag]

Almost Every spec does this, just to varying degrees.

[bleak night]

we both understand that it was way too far in s3

[vale pine]

then again i think its not rly helpful to iterate over mistakes

dev team is only human and they at least now know better

[vestal escarp]

Sorry it could very well be me but dmi dont get what you're saying, since post 10.2 rework sub gameplay was controversial and polarizing that should discourage further chanes?

[lilac stag]

Nah dust was great. Subs cds still are the problem.

[swift tinsel]

Idk, I think instead of just fixing mistakes a fresher direction would be nice

keep the idea of doing really strong burst damge in cooldowns with matching downtime

but try for elegancy over complexity

[vale pine]

dust was a big turn off for many, i had many players reach out to me because the yneeded to learn the spec also from higher world ranks

if you are a sub enthusiasts, you would not mind it as much

or a TC, because we love to min/max these small details

[swift tinsel]

now we get the "can I send this dance or will it completely dumpster my next flag window and my cdr is too variable to know"

[vale pine]

but there is a reason we did have a spreadsheet to help people perform on the spec

if you look back it was also the only time we did a spreadsheet

like currently you don't need it anymroe

[vestal escarp]

Ok but if anything the incident should motivate to try again and improve

[random hare]

guys

does coup de grace hit multiple times

or once?

[swift tinsel]

yes

3

[random hare]

ty

[swift tinsel]

and 3 if you have FW up

3 more*

so six total

its technically 3 eviscerates

[twilit phoenix]

it should hit more times tbh

12-36 times

[vale pine]

i mean they improved the spec more or less by removing dust

a lot of complexity moved to other parts due to it

the spec is in general easier to understand tho

[clever delta]

i loved dust

hated at first

[lilac stag]

Dust gave you so much control

[vale pine]

i liked dust too

but i also think the current iteration is in general more fun

[lilac stag]

that opener.

[calm palm]

dust trickster on launch was actually super fun imo

trying to get that 3rd sectec in was enjoyable

[hazy breach]

Not wrong but i prefer the current style

[void ocean]

dust alone was probably ok, for me the bggest problem was that we had 4 different cds to cdr

too much calc

for my taste

[swift tinsel]

I like the idea of combining flag and blades with the current Death Perception/Supercharger scheme

[vale pine]

you need to understand why many even rogue players did not like it

assassiantion was the best spec for months during the ptr cycle and you learned it

then you could play it one or two weeks

but once you got to the hard bosses, you got nerfed

you comfortably could ignore sub for the entire time

but this fucking spec... now with sin nerfed is stronger for progression

now you need to learn sub from 0 previouse experience

[twilit phoenix]

which sin nerfs are ya talking about?

[vale pine]

i can 100% relate to anymore who hated that

[clever delta]

they nerfed sin twice in row in s

s3

[twilit phoenix]

ahhhhh I wasn't paying attention to sin in s3

[vale pine]

you decide yourself.
Seaosn 1 DF or Season 3 DF

[twilit phoenix]

legit didn't even think about sin those seasons

[bleak night]

[twilit phoenix]

s3 outlaw too much fun

and s1 bonegrinder arms

[sinful zephyr]

Isnt it also a self made problem when people just switch to whatever is slightly better tuned instead of playing what is more enjoyable.

[bleak night]

for most people yeah

but at the top end try telling people competing for wf (or just high ranking) to play something worse

then that gets filtered down to people who it doesnt actually effect but they think it does

[vale pine]

it is, but there is a lot of cultural problem with it

i had heated discussions with people because one spec was 2% worse

[clever delta]

i mean if you are one spec one tricks too bad

[swift tinsel]

I bet some of those same people have greater than 2% variance from pull to pull

due to gameplay

[sinful zephyr]

Quite certainly

[swift tinsel]

but I'd honestly take a onetrick over a fotm reroller

[vale pine]

its a gaming culture issue

[bleak night]

at least one tricks have conviction

[vale pine]

people love to say people sabotaging their raid if they don't play the absolute best

[swift tinsel]

unless that fotm reroller is just a fuckin gamer

[vale pine]

i just happen to not like these polarizing opinions

[void ocean]

sometimes u just want that challenge, 2% is not small

[vale pine]

it is why i had some people who got very offended when i joined discussions

[clever delta]

i would not consider someone choosing strongest spec of certain classs for certain fight fotm reroller tho

[calm palm]

tbh this tier i feel like it will come down more to fight timings than anything for sub vs assa

[clever delta]

fotm reroller in my eyes is the guy who choose class before season whcih look best at PTR

[vale pine]

i don't think sin will be bat

[void ocean]

I'll never forget chosing sub for Smolderon M because it was the way to go altho i hated dust brom the bottom of my heart

[vale pine]

*bad

[void ocean]

i suffered a lot bc of that

[swift tinsel]

I mean a fotm reroll can happen pretty much any time pre-.5 patch when the meta is more solidified

or even around that time in general

[hexed sluice]

My Uldir tier was like this, constantly pushed to play fire by RL. Meanwhile our biggest problem was RL gcd locking himself into devastate and thus taking tons of damage and doing nothing as prot.

but too much brainrot on tier lists to see the real problem

[swift tinsel]

oh yeah, the only tier lists I pay attention to are in alphabetical order

[hexed sluice]

We need one based on the number of letters in the spec name, just to throw people off sometimes

[vale pine]

we had problems with the elitism in our guild too in older xpacs

[swift tinsel]

Same, nathria was pretty bad

[vale pine]

and my guild is "casual" mythic raiding

[swift tinsel]

had a few people leave bc of it

[hexed sluice]

I missed the rest of shadowlands due to that with a horrid guild

[swift tinsel]

Those people left and the culture immediately improved

[hexed sluice]

Wish I just stuck it out cause it was outside of that team, my favourite expansion and I shoulda just became a solo casual for the rest of it instead.

rest in peices my beloved torghast

[balmy ruin]

is mr. fuu gonna yap on the very important tierlist

[swift tinsel]

It's hard though because those kinds of experiences can def taint the whole gameplay

[keen sinew]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

if you mean on max stream, i don't think so he always streams to times i am mostly in bed ^^

[balmy ruin]

Sadge, love if you could yap some lines about sub but i get ya

[vale pine]

i was on there once, but never after its just sadly not to times i can participate

[calm palm]

the only time it really matters is if there is such a significant different between two specs that not playing it is just griefing

[balmy ruin]

ye that's fair

[calm palm]

like if sub was 15% ahead of assa, and you dig your heels in on assa, thats not good for the team

[vale pine]

its like fine

there is not much to talk about

[gritty gorge]

Just a fast question: When playing with The First Dance, can you activate it in a Bossfight in M+ with Vanish and waiting 6 sec and if so: is it worth it?

[vale pine]

tier set got nerfed, sub brings 2 big things

burst

[balmy ruin]

i think that's an overall statement for all the rouge specs tbh

[vale pine]

and the magic "everyhong has parry removed from their concerns"

[calm palm]

any pure dps spec tbh

saw it with plenty of mages this tier

[hazy breach]

No, you need to be outside of combat for 6 seconds

Vanishing does not take you out of combat during boss fights

[vale pine]

tfd is weirdly designed

sadly

[swift tinsel]

if it was 6 seconds of no attacking

but that could get degen

pretty quick

[vale pine]

i think it should be just "out of cobat "

[lilac stag]

Would get abused in PvP if it was only out of combat I think.

[vale pine]

like restelaths?

[lilac stag]

Vanish drops combat

[vale pine]

oh fair

[lilac stag]

Could get sulky with 2 charges

Silly

Maybe a vanish modifier. Idk

[vale pine]

you could just adjust the duration for pvp

or add a icd

[random hare]

@vale pine

i was wondering if we could rotate coldbloods

like

in m+

[vale pine]

you can

just like in st

[random hare]

first coldblood is 1st ST in flag, use it again in dance without flag to use it again on ur next flag (2nd ST)

that way i guess i get an extra use?

extra good use i'd say

[shell willow]

anyone have or know of a weakaura that does like a red light green light for using sd based on whether conditions surrounding flag cd remaining and charges of sd. I'd rather not make one if one around exists

[random hare]

how do u use coldblood on ST?

isnt it always 2nd ST

[lilac stag]

It’s more about Sectech than flag. Would just but an audio alert when SecTech has 10 seconds or less on its CD

[vale pine]

basically you can delay it for 2nd secret in flagellation. if you are very good can then use it one time in between 1 min 30 cooldowns

[shell willow]

yeah its a combination of all of them. with cdr i can get my sectech back with like 4 finishers give or take

[random hare]

always finish 6+ cp right?

never 5

or

on all finishers

[hazy breach]

You can line up your non-flag dance with cold blood too

[random hare]

[hazy breach]

Esp if you end up holding flag for a few seconds anyway

But every second you spend delaying cb is effectively a second spent delaying flag

[random hare]

i have few complicated questions

on 6 targets, can i eviscerate once for danse macabre/other way around at 4 targets for blackpowder?

and how far does it go

[hazy breach]

Dont BP until 7 now

[leaden prairie]

7!

[hazy breach]

Because nimble buff'

[leaden prairie]

wtf

[shell willow]

nimble flurry lol

[random hare]

7!

[hazy breach]

Technically its within error range to bp on 6 as well, but evis is more prio so might aswell

[random hare]

wtf

[spark tusk]

7!

[leaden prairie]

7! is a big numba !

thats like almost always !

[hazy breach]

That is indeed a big numba

[leaden prairie]

and then you are just padding on god !

[random hare]

7! is a big numba !
thats like almost always !

[hazy breach]

Rarely do you ever end up with 5040 targets

[leaden prairie]

5040 is a lot of targets

tbf

i think game would crash

[molten citrus]

[steel zinc]

also bp has more range then coup or?

sometimes worth to bp just because of movement in order to hit sth

[hazy breach]

Ye

[steel zinc]

@vale pine get into the call with max or @hazy breach

[vale pine]

its too late for me

[random hare]

@vale pine @hazy breach

[plush roost]

notlikethis

[small hemlock]

hes away to eat and playing optimus prime dubstep

[random hare]

how is the difference between first dance and weapon master in dslice?

and does dslice always proc first dance in keys?

[steel zinc]

nah you can do it 😄

[hazy breach]

No tfd only procs on pull in sims atm

[random hare]

because i swear in real keys u never proc first dance man

[hazy breach]

You proc it more than enough

On PURE ST tfd is equal to wm at like 3:30

[random hare]

i have to play more im tracking it real time now

[hazy breach]

And WM does absolutely nothing on aoe

[random hare]

wait its that op or

o i see

[hazy breach]

Wm is just awful

[vale pine]

very small, wm probably only worth in dungeons with very long low target sections

[random hare]

we always consume The Rotten with shuriken storm in aoe ye?

once

then 2nd is just w.e

[random hare]

like theater of pain? consistent 3 targets or less on average

?

[vale pine]

hmm probably sitll tfd angle

[pliant topaz]

2nd rotten stack is storm not first.

[random hare]

any reason?

[vale pine]

iirc pain has quite some downtime

woudl be actually fun to look at logs from the runs

[random hare]

ye it does

[vale pine]

and figure that out

[leaden prairie]

do you only do it for bp

like if im not gonna bp why would i storm

or does fw still do something

idk

does it do something

[random hare]

yea someone explain

[leaden prairie]

explain !

[random hare]

ex-plane!

[leaden prairie]

good one

[pliant topaz]

2 reasons.

1. if you storm first stack, it consumes both stacks. if you do 2nd stack, it only consumes 1 stack and applies the buff to everything
2. your first one is usually with premed, so helps with dm, doesnt aste premed etcetc

[random hare]

is the 2nd shadowstrike that worth it tho?

to crit

feels useless

u kinda need FW insta for the first secret technique no?

or does it do nothing

[leaden prairie]

oh wait solo leveling episode

[vestal escarp]

[leaden prairie]

nvm

idc about sub

bb

[pliant topaz]

yeah this is only if you are planning on BPing. technically FW on other targets means nimble does more damage since its physical. but with 50% nimble, it wasnt worth it. might be with 60% idk havent looked

[vestal escarp]

Bruh

[pliant topaz]

i havent seen last weeks either, catching up on both right now

[leaden prairie]

ok

[pliant topaz]

sectechs main damage is shadow so FW does nothing for it. also strike does a fuck load of damage, and cleaves with nimble

[random hare]

ye but generators literally do no dps

[vestal escarp]

Strike does

[random hare]

why wouldnt i shuriken storm, consume both stacks fuck it

[pliant topaz]

strike does

[random hare]

because of nimble flurry

or

[vestal escarp]

Because you wanna crit at least one strike

[tepid trellis]

strike just hits hard

[vestal escarp]

You're loaded with talents to make it do silly dmg

[random hare]

find weakness irrelevant for secret technique btw?

[pliant topaz]

strike on its own does a lot of damage, rotten damage amp + 25% (now 50%) crit damage amp from trcikster tree

this shit does big dam

[tepid trellis]

pretty much

[hazy breach]

Strike by itself does significantly more damage (like 2-3x) of shuriken storm

[tepid trellis]

only amp the first hit

[hazy breach]

But it also procs unseen blade

Which does more than strike

[pliant topaz]

^

and can get u stacks of form

[random hare]

yea i see

ye but thats irrelevant if it crits or not

im like comparing consuming x2 rotten stacks for quick find weakness

but i guess its useless for secret technique?

[hazy breach]

Not completely, but most of sectech damage is from the clones

[random hare]

which is shadow dmg?

[hazy breach]

y

[pliant topaz]

yea

[vestal escarp]

Did he just ask it the third time?

[vale pine]

btw. i love how all sub rogues come together to help zeross learn the spec

proud of each one of you

[molten citrus]

[vestal escarp]

The sub pipe dream is over zeross

[random hare]

stfu trickz

[vestal escarp]

Back to sin prision

Bb

[molten citrus]

[leaden prairie]

zeross needs the entire channel coaching him

he sucks !

[molten citrus]

[leaden prairie]

fuck zeross the noob !

[vestal escarp]

Zerosskicks

[random hare]

wait i was wearing orgrimmar teleport cloak

no wonder i did low dps

i was playing against the 2 most op classes tho besides i was playing ethical too

[vestal escarp]

Good sub overall ig

[random hare]

nah its kinda trash

i did 6m in floodgates earlier

with a good sub route

[spark tusk]

I’ve had my SW teleport cloak and I’ve used it like once ever since getting it in cata

[random hare]

cracked out route ngl

[vestal escarp]

"sub route"

[spark tusk]

Like hearthstone has always been enough

Why are you going to org so frequently as to need the cloak

[spark tusk]

I still have mine in my bags just never use it

[random hare]

ptr

u teleport often

[vestal escarp]

Hello mr pug tank would you kindly learn the sub route for this key?

[spark tusk]

Oh right ptr

[random hare]

that was his route

good route ngl

especially pull 11

good for overall

u guys will farm this dungeon quite alot

it has a broken ass trinket

50% uptime 3k crit at 636 ilvl

2.9k crit rather but ya

rly op

[sand ore]

can someone go talk to max and tell him sub is dogwater

[swift tinsel]

doesn't sound like house of cards or eye of kezan

[sand ore]

so we get buffed

[random hare]

wait right eye of kezan

ye thats a raid trinket mostly

forgot about raid

[swift tinsel]

if anything we might go azerokk or bee trinket if no eye

[vale pine]

house of cards and the eye trinket

kinda bis everywhere

[random hare]

azerokk mega bait

ye

eye gives like

[swift tinsel]

we don't have stellar eye alternatives

[random hare]

almost x2 mainstat

its super op

[swift tinsel]

energy drink maybe

[random hare]

energy drink got nerfed

[swift tinsel]

again, not a stellar alternative

[random hare]

30-35% uptime

[swift tinsel]

when?

[random hare]

from last time i tested

[swift tinsel]

last I saw it was buffed

[random hare]

doesnt scale with haste per proc anymore

[swift tinsel]

we have like 3% haste

[vale pine]

delve trinekts are all middle of the pack

[random hare]

not true tho

[vale pine]

good early on tho

[random hare]

we have alot more than that in fight

[swift tinsel]

I guess with alacrity

[vale pine]

okay i lied

[random hare]

and lust

[vale pine]

abyssal trap is 100% the right name for the trinket

[random hare]

well if it stayed with haste proc it'll be 100% best trinket for keys

[vale pine]

its a trap to use it or think its good

[random hare]

the knife trinket is op at 626 ilvl

[swift tinsel]

shadow dagger was simming well iirc

[random hare]

neutral with crystal for sin at 639

[swift tinsel]

yea

[vale pine]

knife is def. good

[random hare]

mostly crystal is ahead by 0.1-0.3%

but ya

knife's debuff u can cloak

which u cant on sims i think

[vale pine]

thats true

but you would only cloak mastery or vers

[alpine wraith]

you cloak if its on cds

[vale pine]

if its haste

[alpine wraith]

you dont even cloak if it is not there too

[vale pine]

exctly

[west tide]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

this positive press might be good

lol

lfg chuds might actually look at us

[jaunty heath]

This just means sin buffs incoming

[swift tinsel]

[swift crest]

im going to have many questions over next tier

[swift tinsel]

@lucid jackal slayed it

[light finch]

Would love to get a 2-5 Minute Cooldown that you could use to buff your Shadowstep so that you and your target changes the position, that would have been my answer for "what would you wish for"

[lucid jackal]

I think I did not bad

There really wasn't much to talk about

I enjoy the state of rogue, rotation wise so

[swift tinsel]

the last bit about hero talents was absolutely called for, loved it

[lucid jackal]

Not really upset

[hazy breach]

Yepsk its was good

[keen dome]

Ye, real nice

Big fan of being a rogue

[mortal geyser]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[cunning turret]

Hi all, switching back to sub rogue for next season after last playing it in s1 shadowlands.

What has changed for the spec? Does it end up feeling quite similar to how it was back then?

Also, it might be too early yet, but is there any indication on what some of the better trinkets would be for next season?

[vagrant fulcrum]

it feels hella different

[lilac stag]

Read a guide

[vagrant fulcrum]

you're energy starved, you have a lot of burst

[lilac stag]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[river snow]

!stats

[wicked jolt]

The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simming your gear through Top Gear.
Mastery >= Versatility > Critical Strike > Haste

[sudden bison]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[steel zinc]

Yeah gj

[swift crest]

u did good platforming how lame deathstalker is

[steel zinc]

that hero talent made imo assa worse comapred to df

[light finch]

All herotalents seem pretty boring, at least with deathstalker you have to think about how you handle target changes, at least on sin rogue. Would not be surprised if we didn't look at fatebound for the whole Expansion.

[vale pine]

think trickster is actually decent/good

[solar geode]

wait are people not fucking with sub rogue?

actually that kind of makes sense

i mentioned i would be playing sub rogue for s2 and someone in my guild went "...why sub rogue?"

in like the exact same voice that people ask me like "so why are you gay" LMAO

[oak idol]

Huh

It's meant to be good?

Innit

[swift crest]

sub is hard if never played

[oak idol]

Obviously

[solar geode]

so true i picked a hard spec that must mean im a good player

[swift crest]

so it being good is scary

[solar geode]

(me when i lie)

[oak idol]

Id play sub if I was on rogue this season

Next season***

Outlaw is in the bin

[pallid prawn]

for sub yes but for outlaw its really bad

[solar geode]

outlaw is in the bin?

[oak idol]

Sin is good

[solar geode]

yeah i made a typo sorry

what happened to outlaw

[oak idol]

I don't even know I just know it does no damage

[light finch]

with 0.7 most of the specc that made it seem "hard" got streamlined

[solar geode]

in my heart outlaw will always be a winner because it can use something other than 2 daggers and thats cool

FUCK double daggers

i want a cool sord

[light finch]

you could use a sword in your offhand, its just really really bad

[jaunty umbra]

more tierlists give me MORE

[lucid jackal]

Outlaw is lowkey chill

[swift tinsel]

was messing around on ptr, its kinda fun

I don't love crackshot the most but I've played worse things

[random mason]

nothing really: still target capped but it's even close to competitive on that amount of targets or less, still playing only fatebound, trickster is fully reliant on KS which is just a suicide button but might be competitive dmg in M+, no burst, very reliant on uptime to keep all cds rolling, HAS to hit specific haste values depending on your build etc etc
I'll still play it cause it's really fun but there's seemingly easy changes that would make it a lot nicer to play and give it an actual identity in the game apart from being good at perma uptime fights

[solar geode]

damn i see

[light finch]

That something only someone would say that plays >75 cpm for years ;), i think for most players outlaw is way to fast pace and that has a deterrent effect on new players

[shell willow]

Lol the high apms arent really that bad just need some burst

[lucid jackal]

and? L

[swift tinsel]

its not like its a piano spec

[random mason]

yeah you press like 4 buttons but really fast and often

[shell willow]

KS should be a real dps cd

[random mason]

once you got used to subterfuge windows you basically just have to work on cooldown usage and buff uptime

[shy orbit]

someone explain to me why i shouldnt macro these two things

[light finch]

nothing just that i think that most normal players are already pretty occupied with the mechanics of a mythic fight and when you need to play such a high maintenance spec most would choose an "easier" spec, many outlaw players seem to be diehard outlaw fans.

[hazy breach]

!cb

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[hazy breach]

I have updated the wording (and formatting in general) for 11.1 so it should be more obvious

[shy orbit]

so this is not accurate?

shadowblades should come before secret?

[molten citrus]

it is accurate

you want to use CB with your second sec tech in your opener

not your first

[wheat elk]

i know its a highly asked question but still, do we prefer shuriken and BP always on 5+ targets?

[random mason]

then this isn't updated

[wheat elk]

well by always i mean during dance

[molten citrus]

i assume he just made it that way because using CB on your 2nd tech is a smaller optimization

[shy orbit]

then that would make it inaccurate because thats the first secret technique

[honest saddle]

is he supposed to have 30 globals to show the most optimal opener?

[molten citrus]

i meant the blades placement you were asking about

[shy orbit]

ah okay, but this is still inoptimal right, is there like a rotation guide i can read thats up to date?

[molten citrus]

[honest saddle]

I mean outside of just doing CB on second, it's pretty solid.

[shell willow]

if you want to send blades on first sectech go for it but you might not have blades for 2nd sectech

[honest saddle]

?

[molten citrus]

you legit just skip the CB, that's all

then use it on your 2nd tech

[swift tinsel]

huh

[honest saddle]

if you don't play like total dog water, you will have blades for second secret tech, if you blades on your first tech.

[shell willow]

Cut it pretty close have like 2 secs left

[shy orbit]

gotcha

[swift tinsel]

blades is 16 seconds long

[honest saddle]

it's not 2 seconds, its like 4. You'd have to fuck up 2-3x in your opener to miss it. If that's the case, it's a personal issue that is much larger

[shy orbit]

ye np, im just reading the guide cause im trying to learn this

[honest saddle]

good luck. It's a hard spec to learn, but once you get it, you will be just fine

[shell willow]

fair enough

[shy orbit]

it seems harder to me than outlaw and assassination

[honest saddle]

it's probably the most dense and hard spec in the game to learn?

or very close

like imagine if you just didnt take secret tech or flag in the tree because you were new to the game

[shell willow]

oof

[honest saddle]

two talents and youd probably lose like half your damage or something insane

[shell willow]

haha just checked the starter builds atleast they have both of them in it

[shy orbit]

this statement is accurate though from the second tech and onwards correct?

[hazy breach]

If you read a bit below

The gain is slightly higher now that tier buffs sectech more.

[random mason]

once u understand how to time the burst windows and get the burst sequences into muscle memory i feel like it's a timer watching spec

rupture, next burst window

[hazy breach]

Ye, but understanding it and getting the muscle memory is the hard part

[shy orbit]

right, but thats because it aligns with shadowblades window. so if you use coldblood on the second secret technique, does it always align with shadowblades from there on out?

[hazy breach]

Yes because cold blood has a shorter cooldown than shadow blades

[fierce ivy]

If you don't press it, yes. CB has much shorter cooldown than blades so you will always have it ready for that moment

[random mason]

yeah 100%, the learning load is more upfront. which is why i couldn't learn it yet cause it feels like i actually gotta read a manual to play it instead of vibing myself into a good rotation like on outlaw

[shell willow]

a couple hours on the dummy and some keys will get you right

[tranquil garden]

A couple hours on the dummy and then a couple raid bosses and you have it pretty down... All I needed to do was change a few macros around from the latter experience

[plush roost]

Since the tier update you just play normal now, no holding and using snd/rupture 25 seconds before ya?

Felt pretty good playing normal, but feels =/= numbers

[hazy breach]

Yes

You can still do it for mechanics/etc but you dont need to do it on a pure ST dummy

The pin is updated

[plush roost]

Yeah makes perfect sense

[hazy breach]

Ill just change the order of the pins as the info one is more relevant

[plush roost]

1st boss of motherload seems like a good boss to do that on, 150% amp every 45 seconds? Insane sub fight

What changed to make evis better at 6 or less

[balmy thorn]

Having played nearly every spec in the game sub is on the harder end of things but it's not even close to being the hardest spec to learn

[hazy breach]

Nimble got buffed

[plush roost]

Ohhh thats right

Yeah makes sense, huge even

[spark tusk]

So we’re dropping the whole “only rupture when less than 25 sec to flag” yeah?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[spark tusk]

Nice

[plush roost]

Okay someone else ask eleem

:^)

[random mason]

How's your day eleem

[jaunty umbra]

what spec is the hardest in your opinion, just curious

[hazy breach]

I was trying to explain 5th grade math to a guy in #assassination earlier but he told me i was wrong and dumb.

[quick swan]

Practicing opener atm, but every time I press vanish I insta leave stealth and cant SS lol, tf

[hazy breach]

But besides that my day has been pretty ait

[balmy thorn]

I would say arcane mage but I haven't played it since the TWW rework so I'm outdated on that. I would say now might be Enhance, maybe UNH as well. They're up there

[swift tinsel]

I had to stop watching that conversation

bc my head started hurting

[hazy breach]

Ye its a bit bugged, you have to wait a short bit after vanishing before striking

But it also doesnt matter that much

[swift tinsel]

linking the 5th grade video was funny as fuck

[hazy breach]

The main thing you want from vanishing is premed, which works the same on backstab

[quick swan]

How long generally? cuz I dont see it come up at all haha

so I can just BS instead to practice? easy

what a weird bug

[hazy breach]

Its some stance swapping issues

[spark tusk]

You still get premed, I normally only experience the issue when in Dornogal

[quick swan]

Im in Ironforge atm to avoid the lag

[hazy breach]

Same reason why shadowdance+shadowstrike macros aint working anymore (not that i'd recommend them anyway, but it was recommended for a bit in DF so lots of returning people still have it)

[quick swan]

Yeah never used that one thankfully

prefer sin but figured id try and learn this again at least

[balmy thorn]

Are the Dornogal AoE dummies bugged for Nimble Strikes like it is for Outlaw Blade Flurry? I got told that BF doesn't allocate damage correctly or something

[hazy breach]

But ye the only difference is the strike dmg VS backstab damage, so its not a huge deal

[hazy breach]

Yes, blades too

Stormwind and Orgrimmar are generally the place i'd recommend to practice on dummies for that reason

[balmy thorn]

Jesus how do you even practice on dummies man. Why can they not get simple things right lmao

[quick swan]

I wish there was an area where you could just reset CD's so I dont have to wait minutes at a time lol

[hazy breach]

There is a dude that does that in dornogal

on ptr

[quick swan]

was gunna say

[hazy breach]

But not on live im afraid

[alpine void]

do u only use symbols in dance

[quick swan]

Im in OCE so trying to practice on 200ms is pretty fried

[balmy thorn]

I honestly just wish that every player had their own instanced training room they could go into that allowed them to customise amount of dummies, health thresholds, etc. Why is this cringe shit still a thing

[alpine void]

or is there a scenario where its fine to send

[hazy breach]

You do not dance without symbols

[alpine void]

right

[hazy breach]

But in rare situations you can end up symbolsing without having a dance ready yes

[alpine void]

like while waiting for 2nd blades can i send without a dance

[topaz raptor]

almost as rare as dry shiv XD

[hazy breach]

As long as you'll still have 2 of each for blades+flag

[alpine void]

cool thanks

is it safe to just macro that mf into dance

[gilded jungle]

Is it worth macroing Sybbols with dance?

LOL

[hazy breach]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends, despite Secret Technique not being ready.
Secret Technique will come up during the second dance, and you want to make sure that it will be supercharged. To do this hold onto Symbols of Death and use it when Secret Technique
has 10s or less left of its cooldown.
This is why a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[pearl swan]

roughly what % is the cb on 2nd sec tech n no macro?

[hazy breach]

1% or so