mom im about to be rich
#subtlety
alpine wraith
molten citrus
A buff?
hazy breach
Well ye but 7% is completely irrelevant 
molten citrus
Oh you were asking about the stiletto
true fable
so its worse to have 2x depts?
alpine wraith
you forgot this one
molten citrus
molten citrus
so its worse to have 2x depts?
Nah
hazy breach
Not a huge fan of the depths thing either as it likely makes depths better on pure ST, while radiant is still better on aoe
But it makes sense
alpine wraith
i dont like depths either
it has 2 layers of rng
at least radiant just proics
this one has to stack at least every x secs
and downtime fucks it
then it can crit too
also radiant power dmg increased 23% pog
balmy thorn
I'm using a macro for shadow blades, shadow dance, and symbols all in one. I do also have a separate keybind for symbols. Is this fine to do? Or should I be always separating them?
molten citrus
also radiant power dmg increased 23% pog
But no change to the agi right?
alpine wraith
not that i found
balmy thorn
I thought you always use shadow blades and dance together?
alpine wraith
you use blades after sec tech or just before
balmy thorn
Really? Oh ok
Damn I'm going to have to think of a spot for some extra binds
Is it ok to macro any of them together?
hazy breach
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.Hmm even cold blood? Oh boy I'm not sure if I can play this spec if I have to relearn all this muscle memory 😭
median geode
For simplicity, I'd just macro cold blood in with secret technique, but you'll definitely waste a cold blood use on an eviscerate or something at some point
Definitely have different keybinds for dance, symbols, flag, and shadow blades though
tepid trellis
you can still macro it to sectech, ideally you just have 2 sectech binds
one with CB and one without
balmy thorn
For simplicity, I'd just macro cold blood in with secret technique, but you'll d...
How would I do that? It would only activate when I press ST right?
balmy thorn
you can still macro it to sectech, ideally you just have 2 sectech binds
Omg pls no more keybind
molten citrus
How would I do that? It would only activate when I press ST right?
By clipping/messing up your GCD
median geode
Yeah you'd do something like
#showtooltip Secret Technique
/cast Cold Blood
/cast Secret Technique
molten citrus
CB is an off gcd so it’ll fire off whether your sec tech gcd does or not
median geode
That's the downside ^
molten citrus
Not a common issue usually
tepid trellis
mostly happens with Shuriken Tornado
hazy breach
or coup
spice matrix
looks like a sub tier
kind edge
This just made my day
tidal copper
Wasn’t it already a Sub tier?
hazy breach
Big good news
Possibly
kind edge
hazy breach
Ye but the tier set got gutted
lucid jackal
We used to pray for times like this
spice matrix
as expected
kind edge
Ye but the tier set got gutted
I guess it make sense
open vortex
Hopefully this means less playing around the stacks?
kind edge
Overall > burst. Imo
hazy breach
Overall > burst. Imo
spice matrix
open vortex
I would take the burst 10/10 times
worthy pulsar
does this means, less feeling bad if stacks gone, but overall better dps?
open vortex
They saw we were spamming it so much
kind edge
Because in low keys, the burst will be good. In high keys when the mobs got much more hp, burst stills good but then we want consistence.
solar geode
i think this is probably a good change in terms of design
spice matrix
Not sure why rupture got a 6% dmg buff
sin buff 🙂
solar geode
because not pressing evicerate for 25 seconds or whatever it was sounds and probably feels stupid
tribal blade
YO trickster buffs???
hazy breach
YO trickster buffs???
Ye because gutting the tierset is a massive trickster nerf
balmy thorn
Does the nimble flurry change mean that we won't be pressing black powder in aoe? Or is the target count just changed?
hazy breach
Prob just moves the target count up a bit
balmy thorn
What is it currently?
spice matrix
Blizz saw the Bellular vid and clapped back
radiant hedge
Gutting tierset = not spamming snd for 25s
hazy breach
What is it currently?
5 or more
tribal blade
Prob just moves the target count up a bit
i'm guessing something like 7-8+ targets we start BPing
hazy breach
Gutting tierset = not spamming snd for 25s
I mean you'd still do it a lot of the time anyway even though its not worth on average on a target dummy
If an add spawns you need to burst down or you wipe
You would hold
If youre fighting a mob in m+ with 5% health left right before a big pack
You would hold
worthy pulsar
damn this edging playstyle
radiant hedge
Sure, but doing it rotationaly for 1/3rd of your rotation is just bad class design. Having it be a niche use case thing is interesting.
hazy breach
Sure, but doing it rotationaly for 1/3rd of your rotation is just bad class desi...
Its 1 or 2 eviscerates youre replacing
limber folio
so
tribal blade
so more nimble damage and more UB hits= more cdr means sub is gonna be banging in aoe
limber folio
sub lost a lot on the 4P right
tribal blade
i'm down for these kinds of changes, makes it healthier
hazy breach
Expected and healthier overall, but im still a bit sad
I wanted enormous bonks 
Now we only get large bonks
tribal blade
yeah it's a bit less sexy
knotty mango
yeah they were never letting a tier set with that much value go live
spriest got the same treatment
rose pond
So is this a big nerf or a buff in the end for Sub?
solar geode
buff methinks
bleak night
rip bonk
hazy breach
yeah they were never letting a tier set with that much value go live
I mean its not really about the tier.
My comments that is
solar geode
its not about the tier... its about sending a message....
tepid trellis
Unsure why udk got buffed 
ashen ibex
left pollen
soooo we are still going sin for raids and M+, got it.
tepid trellis
Who is we?
bleak night
swift tinsel
Judging from chat I take it we caught some nerfs lol
pallid inlet
anything but outlaw haha
tepid trellis
No lol
hazy breach
I would be surprised if its a nerf
tepid trellis
Pretty sure it’s either equal or buff
swift tinsel
10% aura buff
hazy breach
But i dont think its a huge buff
swift tinsel
Nice
sterile kiln
tepid trellis
Trickster got some good buffs
swift tinsel
Honestly was expecting it to hit a bit worse
hazy breach
Trickster got some good buffs
Which is surprising, but welcome
Hopefully it makes trickster still playable
fickle mason
big nerfarinos sub rogue dead before arrival
hazy breach
Whatever slightly means
swift tinsel
Yeah I’m liking what I’m seeing for trickster
drifting fable
are we back
tepid trellis
Elmo is about to run sims
spice matrix
are we back
time to turn that yellow to cyan my dude
drifting fable
bro i’ve been yellow forever but i haven’t spec’d into outlaw since vault
swift tinsel
Will have to take more looks after work
spice matrix
damn, I kinda f with trickster
drifting fable
i hate that shit
solar geode
i quite like trickster
drifting fable
ds so much more fun and awesome
solar geode
the passive cleave is pretty cool i think :D
tribal blade
the surprising strikes buff is.. surprising
fickle mason
is it overall nerf?
tribal blade
that's a big number
strong drift
DS can suck a fart
tepid trellis
is it overall nerf?
Probably a slight buff if I had to guess
solemn creek
they took away power from the 4p. so its a gain 
they couldnt fix secret technique 4p bug,
fickle mason
i thought 4p was like 27% so wouldnt 6 to 2 percent be huge?
hazy breach
ds so much more fun and awesome
Skip loves auto attacks being 12% of his damage, such engaging gameplay 
hazy breach
i thought 4p was like 27% so wouldnt 6 to 2 percent be huge?
Well a lot of the gain of the 4p is maintaining 2p
Not all of it is the shadow amp
frigid latch
hey, just saw the changes, tldr? seems like this changes gravitate towards trickster being even better pure st now? since 4p big nerf seems like and trickster overall buffs?
anyone ran the numbers?
solar geode
numbers are being ran currently i think
tribal blade
mm so rotten is def better than 1 finality now right
drifting fable
Skip loves auto attacks being 12% of his damage, such engaging gameplay <a:Class...
Man i just want s3 shadowlands tierset back
turbid depot
Man i just want s3 shadowlands tierset back
how it was?
tepid trellis
Aweful
solar geode
what did it do
drifting fable
The most fun sub ever was
drifting fable
what did it do
(2) Set Subtlety: Shadowstrike has a 15% chance to grant Shadow Blades for 5 sec.
(4) Set Subtlety: Your finishing moves have a 3% chance per combo point to cast Shadowstrike at up to 5 enemies within 15 yards.
charred ivy
it was actually good when you were lucky 😄
drifting fable
ultimate gamba
tepid trellis
Garbage
drifting fable
GOATED
restive briar
vagrant fulcrum
yall reckon the tier changes get rid of the cringe gameplay?
restive briar
Oh some1 beat me
charred ivy
but s3 sl assa tier was my most enjoyable one
tribal blade
bro that tier set was gamba tier
if you got procs=more procs
no procs=no procs
it was just a vicious cycle
shut ridge
spice matrix
oh no
broken shadow
its genuinely over
bleak night
drifting fable
an outlaw tier would be beautiful but
random comet
the irony of watching assass channel doom about playing sub and the sub channel doom about playing assass
drifting fable
that’s never happening
late briar
its genuinely over
shush clush you are an outlaw boy
warm veldt
an outlaw tier would be beautiful but
df season 3?
safe sparrow
molten citrus
sub is never dead
pliant topaz
just saw the changes, kinda what i expected. probably revert back to same build we run now, same exact playstyle. since burst is kinda turbo nerfed, probably transmitter slightly weaker too is my guess. gg have fun lads!
tepid trellis
Dead. Gone. Erased
tepid trellis
Idfk
worn ivy
They should immedietly delete LFG groups for M+ or capped it to +15,
broken shadow
shush clush you are an outlaw boy
i know i just like to troll every discord that gets any class tuning
i just say "its over" or somethign to that effect in literally every class discord
its pretty fun actually
pliant topaz
would be curious how 2x finality db does. rupture damage a lot higher, damage in cds a lot lower
plain quest
warriors in shambles right now
broken shadow
ok fury catching 5% overall is actually hilarious
tribal blade
would be curious how 2x finality db does. rupture damage a lot higher, damage in...
the cursed build
pliant topaz
we'll see
tepid trellis
Think with some APL tinkering I think it should about break even
tribal blade
waiting for "hold up, this ends up being an overall buff"
pliant topaz
just napkin mth says its a tiny tiny nerf
probbly revert to old apl and its almost just flattening the burst
restive briar
Waiting for the gif Eleem posted to be bait
hazy breach
Changes for 25/2
https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/additional-class-updates-for-undermined/562776/1
A massive nerf to our tierset (which was overtuned so it was expected) and baseline buffs to compensate. However going of initial sims it seems like these buffs are not enough. After some tinkering with the sim we are roughly back to the same simdps we had before these changes. Its worth noting though that part of this is due to enchants being buffed, so we wouldve had slightly more dps had these changes not gone through.
- Singletarget: -1% overall simdps
- Peak burst down about 15%
- Trickster still ahead of deathstalker by like +3%.
- Aoe: ~+1%
- Both hero talents seem solid, would recommend trickster though.
Overall: Numbers look roughly the same, but burst is smaller, which is understandable but a shame. Based on sims alone sub seems to currently be solidly middle of the pack, but sims do not necessarily represent real boss fights
shut ridge
IT'S OVER EVERYONE PANIC AAAAAA
random comet
joever
shut ridge
uneven scarab
worthy pulsar
time to reroll outlaw bois
hazy breach
Waiting for the gif Eleem posted to be bait
Nah its the truth
sterile kiln
pliant topaz
## Changes for 25/2
<https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/additional-class-up...
2x finality db time! rupture stonks
solar geode
its joe
tepid trellis
Guess we wait for more buffs next week
tribal blade
Guess we wait for more buffs next week
i'm riding the cope train with you
hazy breach
2x finality db time! rupture stonks
Surely a 6% rupture buff makes up for a 30% nerf to eviscerate and BP (relatively)
tribal blade
hopefully this isn't a classic 1 and done pass on sub by the devs again
tepid trellis
Time to lvl my shaman o7
true fable
o7
bleak night
feral gaming time
drifting fable
## Changes for 25/2
<https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/additional-class-up...
damn
uneven scarab
going 
uneven scarab
smh
restive briar
Nah its the truth
broken shadow
i just showed my wife the nerfs and she just left me
pliant topaz
Surely a 6% rupture buff makes up for a 30% nerf to eviscerate and BP (relativel...
wouldnt make up for it no. but the damage has been redistributed. 2x finality prob takes pv. which could really benefit the buff to strike crit. although that build doesnt take rotten so idk
worn ivy
i dont understand how people enjoying assa
errant tinsel
i dont understand how people enjoying assa
hey dont yuck my yum
pliant topaz
its like 2x finality db was like what 3.5% behind? 6% more ruptuure damage is a pretty big deal, considering tier further buffs rupture in dance too if db
swift tinsel
Poor Dave never stood a chance
uneven scarab
Poor Dave never stood a chance
worn ivy
ive legit 0 respect people playing assa
uneven scarab
wtf
swift tinsel
Will wait to full doom until I get home
solar geode
they should remove assassination rogue and replace it with something fun like ranged or 2h
worn ivy
Actually if you play assa you dont have respect for yourself D:
molten citrus
ive legit 0 respect people playing assa
This is going on the list of the weirdest shit I’ve seen said here
errant tinsel
Actually if you play assa you dont have respect for yourself D:
also on the list of weirdest shit ive ever seen
tepid trellis
This is going on the list of the weirdest shit I’ve seen said here
More than 2.5 raccoons can fit in your bum
uneven scarab
Cap
tepid trellis
Google it if u don’t trust me
open vortex
My reaction after seeing the numbers nerfs 
pliant topaz
tribal blade
finisher spec needs more builder damage
frfr ong
but i guess this means trickster gains more prio damage
alpine wraith
the absolute clownage
swift tinsel
Increased rupture damage even though we’re probably not doing that anymore lol
fallow nimbus
Where buff indicator?
tepid trellis
Probably just 1 more rppm
alpine wraith
reset happened? who knows
tepid trellis
So now it lines up out of dance more
alpine wraith
now enjoy wasting even more coups
uneven scarab
man this is so mid
worn ivy
Surprising Strikes critical damage bonus increased to 50% (was 25%).
fallow nimbus
Storm should proc unseen if we can't have a buff that unseen is ready
tepid trellis
Cya guys in a week when they realized their math wasn’t matching and they buff our dog ass baseline again
heady dragon
finisher spec needs more builder damage
assa is a dot spec that always gets Envenom buffed
sub gets builders buffed
it all makes sense
tribal blade
Cya guys in a week when they realized their math wasn’t matching and they buff o...
thoughts and prayers
solemn creek
next patch: rogue gets an aura buff; all rogue within party does 10% more damage
"from shadow"
twilit phoenix
Nah just 5% worse and lower burst
Rip
hazy breach
Realistically were still gonna be doing some of the highest burst in the game
tepid trellis
Nah just nerf us again
hazy breach
But i wouldve liked the nuclear cooldowns
tepid trellis
We clearly do too much
rugged condor
is this looking like a raid buff tier. all the specs dont seem happy lol
tepid trellis
Nerf a spec that sims 25% less than bm
kind edge
Realistically were still gonna be doing some of the highest burst in the game
Yea but who cares when you finish a m+ with mediocre overall. You will be like “guys do remember the burst i did in the pack 2, 5, 8 and 9?” 🥲
hazy breach
Yea but who cares when you finish a m+ with mediocre overall. You will be like “...
It was not mediocre overall
On the ptr
But also i prefer that
rugged condor
Nerf a spec that sims 25% less than bm
hazy breach
Thats what sub is about to me, stacking cooldowns for big burst
Not doing more damage with backstab procs out of dance
kind edge
It was not mediocre overall
Yea not at all tbh, i mean in the future
kind edge
Not doing more damage with backstab procs out of dance
Yea that’s awfull
rocky ocean
Fun detected, quick, nerf the fuck out of non shaman specks
rocky mortar
they did do this so that part was expected
uneven scarab
Only 10% above everyone else now
charred ivy
probably they were trying to balance out tier set i believe another buff would come
open vortex
they got off light
swift tinsel
Revert 4pc to 4%
rocky mortar
they got off light
who did warrior? they have basically zero utility. doing a little more damage makes sense
hazy breach
they did do this so that part was expected
Spec thats simming 3.1M loses 5% damage (warriors)
Spec thats simming 2.6M loses 5% damage (sub)
open vortex
heh a little
uneven scarab
willow pawn
its all casualaddicts fault
open vortex
tacit aspen
why do we evis in our aoe opener ?
rocky mortar
sub i agree can use a litle more. but warrior doesn't need to lose that much. they're literally worthless without damage being a bit on the higher end
hazy breach
why do we evis in our aoe opener ?
To apply slice and dice
heady dragon
who did warrior? they have basically zero utility. doing a little more damage ma...
thats such a dumb take lol
and "omg no utility" is always a cope, when its literally always dmg in the end that matters
and warrior has plenty good tools anyway lol
rocky mortar
and trickster also AoE splashes it anyway
hazy breach
sub i agree can use a litle more. but warrior doesn't need to lose that much. th...
What?
heady dragon
What?
"i should do more dmg cus NO UTILITY if you ignore my utility skills"
the normal m+ utility brainrot lol
rocky mortar
thats such a dumb take lol
and "omg no utility" is always a cope, when its lite...
the no utility is a very valid argument. whenever specs damage are close the one with more utility is brought every time without argument. so dmg needs to be higher (albeit not by a large margin) for something to be taken.
hazy breach
By that logic rogue has no utility either
heady dragon
^
brisk onyx
Fuck you BZ
paper iron
what is utility nowadays?
rocky mortar
rogues utility is fairly limited outside keys. and even then it kind of needs some odd pathing to enable it.
paper iron
A strong raid buff and ton of aoe cc?
heady dragon
rogues utility is fairly limited outside keys. and even then it kind of needs so...
what has rogue?
i wanna know it now
rocky mortar
now days, it's a lot of AoE cc's and highly valuable raid buffs. so aug evoker, mark of the wild, high amounts of interrupts and party survivability tools
nothing rogue has
blind even AoE is a pain to use well
tepid trellis
Spec thats simming 3.1M loses 5% damage (warriors)
Spec thats simming 2.6M loses...
that shit is maddening
rocky mortar
without shroud being an impactful thing. and even then that's usually not defining
assass with iron wire is probably the most valuable utility of rogue specs (imo).
paper iron
u guys have cheapshot, dont u like spamming it ? 
hazy breach
Speed shroud def undervalued
paper iron
rogue is king of crowd control am i right?
charred ivy
yea like 8 gcd in every dance cuz its cheap
paper iron
assass with iron wire is probably the most valuable utility of rogue specs (imo)...
i agree, and even then it s not used that much cuz it useless tbh
rocky mortar
Speed shroud def undervalued
i love that talent. not only is it ms, but it doesn't break if someone leaves it
rocky mortar
i agree, and even then it s not used that much cuz it useless tbh
i don't think it's useless. . . but more that it's useless without coordination. it helps tanks gather casters into sizeable pulls notably easier.
hazy breach
In a dungeon like grim batol the amount of time saved by speed shroud is very noticeable
Not using it for any form of stealth, just purely for the speed
rocky mortar
and can offset some of the more dangerous casts early on in a pull with a few back to back silences on core targets while the pull gets settled
tepid trellis
eleem fly to denmark and clobber me with a bat so i can wake up from this fever dream please
paper iron
speedshroud to skip more trash in raids, op
tribal blade
eleem fly to denmark and clobber me with a bat so i can wake up from this fever ...
may i interest you in another BP buff
hazy breach
may i interest you in another BP buff
- Plague damage increased by 40%
rocky mortar
may i interest you in another BP buff
how about further nerfs to healing. now you can only use rogues health potion while invisible. and vanish no longer heals 24% but only 10%
prime ice
!fuu
tribal blade
- Plague damage increased by 40%
bro it's gonna happen again i can feel it
valid marsh
What is our ST sim now?
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
heady dragon
eleem fly to denmark and clobber me with a bat so i can wake up from this fever ...
man stealthi
you play this game for a while now, you should know the wild ride that is blizzard balancing 
hazy breach
What is our ST sim now?
Around 2.45
tepid trellis
this aint about balance tuning
only times you will see me mad abl
about* tuning changes is when they change stuff back to builder BS dmg
fuck that shit
rocky mortar
yaa. bs dmg isn't so much sub i agree. though I also wouldn't be happy waiting 30s and casting ruptures while waiting for my 1.5m sequence either so theirs that
heady dragon
TWW is just WILD with patchnotes
like, remember raid launch, fury warrior strong and they blanket nerf stuff for arms aswell for no reason
like, what the hell
hazy breach
yaa. bs dmg isn't so much sub i agree. though I also wouldn't be happy waiting 3...
To me skipping out on casting a 400k eviscerate is well worth having the highest burst in the game
tepid trellis
its an issue of spec direction, nobody that actively plays sub wants it to be builder dmg
hazy breach
And youre still gonna end up doing it a lot of the time
tepid trellis
so why the fuck dos that keep happening?
hazy breach
Because when an important add is spawning
That needs to be bursted down
Youre gonna want to have full stacks
Same in m+ at the end of a pack
It doesnt really change
In fact its still net neutral to do the holding in simc even after the tier nerfs
charred ivy
i mean " Very silly high number, expecting a nerf but otherwise this is an absolute requirement to get as soon as humanly possible." this comment is also overrated damage should come somewhere its either the tier or the giga trinket like transmitter only concern can be leaving other token classes in shadow but i dont think so getting 4p is a big deal these days anyway
heady dragon
so why the fuck dos that keep happening?
same thing i ask myself everytime envenom got a +5% buff again lol
rocky mortar
To me skipping out on casting a 400k eviscerate is well worth having the highest...
not saying it isn't worth it. i'm saying that I really dislike having to avoid pressing evis or anything of the like just so the gimmick of the tier set isn't accidently used and saved for full burst. . and just rupturing for 30 seconds as setup feels pretty bad.
warm depot
sad...
jaunty heath
our tier set on paper just looks bad.
who gets excited about "2%"
very uninspiring to play
rocky mortar
but at least it's pretty clear where sub is likely to land for the season. if a 10% buff is all we got to offset that large of a nerf.
drifting fable
Around 2.45
molten citrus
A gameplay change away from pressing nothing but evis for the first time in 20 years? Nooo 
rocky mortar
A gameplay change away from pressing nothing but evis for the first time in 20 y...
insead we just overcap on rupture, wasting a large portion of it's value.
edgy zenith
this is a net nerf?
jaunty heath
this is a net nerf?
yes
edgy zenith
new tier set was banging huh
molten citrus
this is a net nerf?
Pins
sterile kiln
bad design, yes, but the waiting 25 sec before cds thing is not that deep imo
this feels like the whining that was going about when they introduced the tea auto proc 
bleak night
Lmao true
uneven scarab
Pretty much already did that anyway
jaunty heath
it didnt FEEL good, but the dmg was actually worth it
rocky mortar
this is a net nerf?
the 4 piece was a massive tier set. of like 30% or something of the like on it's own. cutting that by 2/3 in addition to other nerfs. is far more than a 10% aura buff
uneven scarab
tribal blade
spamming rupture before flag sounds bad on paper until you realize how little we do outside of cds
and you can think of it like investing in your big burst
alpine wraith
well now your random ass unseens will do more dmg
also double goremaw buff
THEY ARE ONTO IT
edgy zenith
i didn't even know unseen blade did damage lmao
alpine wraith
now if only it cleaved actually havent checked let me see
edgy zenith
thought it was only coup
alpine wraith
maybe they fixed
sonic quail
idk if i should be concerned or not going into this season
tribal blade
goremaw's would only be worth if you have rotten at the same time right
alpine wraith
depends
hazy breach
now if only it cleaved actually havent checked let me see
It does
paper iron
How many New bugs implemented
hazy breach
did they fix the tier bugs before obliterating it?
The changes arent on ptr
Its for next reset
spark tusk
You mean for the live patch
edgy zenith
wait oh god does this mean it's a Sin tier now
tepid trellis
was about to say if log on now and it isnt i need to repair a wall
hazy breach
You mean for the live patch
Ye
hazy breach
What
alpine wraith
let me try again in the dummies that are closer but i think they didnt fix it
uneven scarab
honest saddle
<:shrugeg:1115674346120294591>
hazy breach
Oh you meant goremaw
honest saddle
the changes do appear to be on ptr?
hazy breach
I meant unseen blades
hazy breach
Ok ye prob on ptr then
Wasnt earlier and sounded like a live only thing in their note
honest saddle
all of the changes are done on ptr at least on the notes
tepid trellis
do i really do this to myself, get out of bed test tier bugs
honest saddle
hazy breach
Then i shouldnt need any overrides anymore, good stuff
tepid trellis
do i wanna make myself more mad
bleak night
No
hazy breach
do i really do this to myself, get out of bed test tier bugs
Probably fixed from what i can tell
rancid verge
is there a rotation guide anywhere that's updated to what its gonna look like next patch?
hazy breach
Sectech that is
tepid trellis
is there a rotation guide anywhere that's updated to what its gonna look like ne...
same shit
they didnt want change
tepid trellis
by the looks of it
rancid verge
okay thanks ^^
acoustic lodge
Is the rupture buff good for us too?
hazy breach
It works for us yes
acoustic lodge
Not as bad as I anticipated. I assume more changes will come over the next few weeks like always
haughty mural
finally nerfed us -
acoustic lodge
I just wish we had some gameplay changes
haughty mural
edgy zenith
wait what is coup bug?
acoustic lodge
Sucks, to play the same thing for another six-eight months
edgy zenith
ew coup bug is rough
hazy breach
Love it when you press coup last gcd of the first dance in blades
And since you cant spellqueue dances
Youre gonna leave a small little gap
And thats when the last tick of coup is gonna come in
And make you lose your stacks
brisk onyx
Surprising Strikes critical damage bonus increased to 50% (was 25%).
Will this make us choose rotten again?
hazy breach
Eviscerates doing 30% less damage from tier is the more likely culprit
But yes probably
brisk onyx
strange chasm
alpine wraith
lulnoi
haughty mural
hazy breach
Probably a little stronger aoe, havent looked much into it
alpine wraith
well actually if you rupture more
maybe
unseen does count as a builder somewhat
so it gets the crit dmg
then it cleaves
haughty mural
Atleast no bp buff
tribal blade
oh does UB actually cleave with nimble? i never actually knew that
haughty mural
Rejoice
lilac stag
So we back to assa tier? Just got home. lol
alpine wraith
yea ub does
hazy breach
oh does UB actually cleave with nimble? i never actually knew that
Thats why the strikes are so good
swift tinsel
Same, reading through notes more now
alpine wraith
but goremaw still does not
tribal blade
Thats why the strikes are so good
cool cool
tepid trellis
if anything
lilac stag
lol
alpine wraith
liquid knew all along
tepid trellis
atrophic is cosmetic anyway
alpine wraith
0 rogues last weeks
lilac stag
Sweet. Canceling sub.
haughty mural
sick jackal
does these changes change the rupture for 25secs until blades situation?
muted agate
alpine wraith
stacks are still good to keep
lilac stag
Enjoy Lost Ark time
tepid trellis
0 rogues last weeks
exile and daizr has been dummy hitting
hazy breach
does these changes change the rupture for 25secs until blades situation?
You can ignore it if you want to, on average it shouldnt matter
sick jackal
lovely thanks
alpine wraith
exile and daizr has been dummy hitting
with warrior?
alpine fossil
Does anyone know what spec I should grief withplay in week 1 M+ spam
alpine wraith
but yea i mean they might still run 1
tepid trellis
with warrior?
as sub
hazy breach
lovely thanks
But whenever theres an important burst phase/add coming up you'd still do it
And same thing when a pack is low in m+ right before a big pull
Practically nothing changed, the design of the tier is the same
lilac stag
Why can’t we have nice things?
hazy breach
Now its just +-0% on ST instead of a slight gain to hold in simc
lilac stag
Who did we actually piss off?
sick jackal
did we get any bugfixes?
lilac stag
Don’t need to fix it if you gut it
swift tinsel
doing 2.8mil instead of 2.2?
haughty mural
Who did we actually piss off?
There were random realz pings in here in the past
haughty mural
Still punish us
tepid trellis
anyways bedge time, see you guys on tuesday when they will buff shadowstrike and backstacb by 20%
alpine wraith
take care
lilac stag
I willed the CT buff into existence for assa. Didn’t get the BP buff for us. Sorry I failed.
alpine wraith
man imagine dropping one video and just next morning this comes on and shakes things now we gotta do one with an ukele crying
alpine wraith
hey assa rupture also got buffed
hazy breach
anyways bedge time, see you guys on tuesday when they will buff shadowstrike and...
- Shadowstrike damage is increased by 30%
- Backstab damage (not gloomblade) increased by 30%
- All plague damage increased by 40%
brisk onyx
if they really like DS so mush
hazy breach
they would never be that nice to us
- Lingering shadows is now 200% (was 50%)
sterile kiln
Does anyone know what spec I should ~~grief with~~play in week 1 M+ spam
windwalker tier fr fr
swift tinsel
2.6-3.3mil sectechs, oof
swift tinsel
just the shadow hits
tepid trellis
gone before it even had a chance to bloom
hazy breach
Now assa's peak envenom crits are gonna do more damage than our peak sectechs
swift tinsel
honest saddle
I had 7 mill sec tech on ptr I think I recall
lilac stag
I guess the fotm will clear out by Sunday.
lilac stag
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923898501529600/1342596269193039943/9l...
My dream comes to reality. Well done.
hazy breach
Should still be solid in m+
swift tinsel
My dream comes to reality. Well done.
i worked really hard
lilac stag
do you have it uploaded someplace with a link?
swift tinsel
umm I probably can
lilac stag
Can we sticker it @hazy breach
swift tinsel
I'll make a giphy acct quick
or can you right-click and save the link from the one that's here
hazy breach
All my overrides looked correct but clearly something was missing because now that the PTR data is in simc its more like a 2.5-3% nerf rather than 5%. Ill update the pin, but we'll probably find some extra percentages somewhere so its not gonna end up being that bad. Just burst 📉
alpine fossil
windwalker tier fr fr
Not the kind of answer I was hoping for, but noted
hazy breach
@tepid trellis
swift tinsel
hazy breach
Incase you didnt sleep yet
swift tinsel
we're so back
honest saddle
I am doing more damage on simc than I was before the nerf...
dawn robin
swift tinsel
yeah the sectech hits range from 2.4 to 3.3mil for me
tepid trellis
<@83652604344664064>
shit still ass
swift tinsel
doing the usual 10 stack sod/dance cb+sectech
sick jackal
All my overrides looked correct but clearly something was missing because now th...
This seems like a flawed design of sub
molten citrus
I am doing more damage on simc than I was before the nerf...
are you just simming your live character?
lilac stag
swift tinsel
spread the good word
honest saddle
are you just simming your live character?
mimiron with ptr character
solar geode
what does this gif mean
swift tinsel
Dave is dead
honest saddle
and I gained 15k
solar geode
whos dave
swift tinsel
we are
solar geode
we're all dave subtlety?
honest saddle
also rotten now simming better than finality
lilac stag
swift tinsel
we're all dave subtlety?
its from a reddit post, someone's gf who's never played wow named all the specs based on their icons
slate lantern
Chatgpt said it better than any of us could ever
solar geode
its from a reddit post, someone's gf who's never played wow named all the specs ...
oh lmao pretty good
swift tinsel
we probably got the best one lol
sterile kiln
Chatgpt said it better than any of us could ever
haughty mural
Gn fellas
When I wake up - pin is deleted and it was all a dream
slate lantern
Damn wtf you got chatgpt plus or something that's way better
hazy breach
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/x28VnqdG5rvGDJzxwXgw3W
Ye they buffed a bunch of enchants and stuff
And we havent pushed any APL for ptr yet so for example your previous sim wasnt holding the stacks etc
sly shore
honest saddle
And we havent pushed any APL for ptr yet so for example your previous sim wasnt ...
I mean with tier being cut by more than half
is holding stacks even a thing anymore
i'll leave that up to you
but I doubt
swift tinsel
the Ion Cannon was aimed at us but they pulled the trigger a bit too hard
brisk onyx
honest saddle
https://tenor.com/view/vodyani-endless-space2-core-cracker-orbital-cannon-gif-20...
It's like a billion sub rogues cried out at once, and suddenly were silent
swift tinsel
surely 6% rupture damage will make up for it
lilac stag
Why they gotta pee on the Dave’s rug?
swift tinsel
since we were gonna cast 2 extra every 1.5mins
He must have done something to John Blizzard's couch
honest saddle
I mean with tier nerfed 66%, the chances that we rupture spam to keep stacks is probably gone
I wonder if they saw that gameplay loop and said NOPE
lilac stag
They’re just throwing darts at the wall
swift tinsel
Really hope for a pullback on monday
sly shore
Gl
lilac stag
BP buffs
honest saddle
BP B u F f S
swift tinsel
if I see BP buffs I will drive to Irvine
sly shore
It's just confusing
honest saddle
you wont have to. I will fucking fly you myself
swift tinsel
its only 3/4 of the way across the country
sly shore
It really is confusing
sly shore
This class really is being kicked whilst it's down, isn't it
honest saddle
I think for the first time in a long time, sub rogues were really excited about this tier
swift tinsel
They saw we had one hand reaching up
honest saddle
with burst
swift tinsel
and had to chop it off
lilac stag
It's just confusing
It’s almost like they have zero clue how the spec actually plays or how we enjoy playing it
swift tinsel
We're a finisher spec.
Our mastery exclusively buffs finishers.
we do all of our damage with finishers in cooldowns.
brisk onyx
if I see BP buffs I will drive to Irvine
haha what you up to
lilac stag
More like finished spec.
swift tinsel
ayyyy
lilac stag
swift tinsel
solar geode
my favorite part about playing subtlety is being 5 minutes late back after break and then saying "kept you waiting huh"
swift tinsel
my legacy is secured
End of the day I'm still gonna play sub but man, this is annoying
maybe draw up a lengthy "but why God why?" post on the forums
sly shore
The assa changes are even stranger than the sub rogue ones
brisk onyx
what? are you kidding me
honest saddle
I mean I think the assassin changes make sense IF the idea is to make sin weak st and make sin the aoe spec
swift tinsel
just give them 40% agi from Scent
swift tinsel
yeah after actually reading sin changes I'm genuinely confused too
its like they blind picked talents
tribal blade
i read the sin changes and was genuinely confused
swift tinsel
and said "what if we did something that no one asked for and makes no sense as far as the spec is concerned"
honest saddle
ok ok ok, let me cope
swift tinsel
what the fuck is happening to our class lmfao
lilac stag
i read the sin changes and was genuinely confused
It’s bad when I joke about CT buffs and it actually happens.
sly shore
No
tribal blade
It’s bad when I joke about CT buffs and it actually happens.
i thought maybe i didn't understand sin's issue well enough
swift tinsel
They buff pirate flurry even though the core of the hero tree is butt
tribal blade
apparently my reaction was warranted haha
lilac stag
apparently my reaction was warranted haha
BP buff for assa.
rocky ocean
Buff auto attack damage
swift tinsel
I want them to explain their actions
rocky ocean
Like 8700%
swift tinsel
like a kid who drew on the walls
spark tusk
its like they blind picked talents
Our leaders are stumbling around in the dark and we are hopelessly shackled to them, forever condemned to follow them wherever it leads, to glory or peril. Sadly, the latter sits in front of us
tribal blade
we've become shammy from past expacs
lilac stag
Ion must be playing rogue now
bleak night
Our leaders are stumbling around in the dark and we are hopelessly shackled to t...
real
honest saddle
I mean I dont think any of us thought a 4pc that did 33% of our damage was gonna make it
but to go 66% nerf
WHAT THE FUCK
swift tinsel
Our leaders are stumbling around in the dark and we are hopelessly shackled to t...
This is too poetic and I almost feel better reading it
sly shore
Ion must be playing rogue now
I'm seeing him today, I'll ask him yeah
rough sigil
just a casual 66% nerf to our 4pc
uhh hwat?
sly shore
(I wont)
lilac stag
(I know)
sly shore
I don't think they 30th anniversary event in London is the place to discuss how fucked rogue is
swift tinsel
its one crumb of buff
lilac stag
I could go for some fish and chips
swift tinsel
dude fish and chips go haaard
honest saddle
I don't think they 30th anniversary event in London is the place to discuss how ...
I wouldnt say that
I think its a great time
swift tinsel
there's some supper clubs here that have incredible fish n chips
or like a friday night all you can eat fish fry
Wisconsin has some gems
spark tusk
This is too poetic and I almost feel better reading it
Then your mind is even more cooked than I realized. We are truly doomed. I breath words to my comrades to commiserate in our anguish and misery, only to be met with mindless husks. Then again, I fear my own reflection in the waters we happen across.
tribal blade
i'm guessing they're trying to make sin have more ST dam in keys
swift tinsel
My brain is too fried from sending sectech's hoping against hope that I won't have any split damage events of buffed and unbuffed from the same cast
sly shore
tribal blade
lol right
brisk onyx
Then your mind is even more cooked than I realized. We are truly doomed. I breat...
you are a poet
swift tinsel
also I'm pretty sure I've checked over a thousand FW eviscerates trying to see if they've fixed SF reset
spark tusk
My brain is too fried from sending sectech's hoping against hope that I won't ha...
Round and round it goes, I hope for a change or something novel but the line must go up. The line, can ONLY go up. Nothing else matters. Just the Line.
swift tinsel
I literally do all my own prospecting and crushing bc I haven't built the goblin base
tribal blade
i put 170k in my warband bank too
swift tinsel
but I also use all of them for consumes for our raid group
spark tusk
Seeing that many r3 Crushed Gemstones
swift tinsel
my heart
spark tusk
swift tinsel
I go mining for therapy so I only ever prospect the r3 ores I gather myself
started in Scholazar Basin farming saronite in wotlk and never looked back
swift tinsel
sometimes cobalt in Zuldrak
spark tusk
swift tinsel
elementium in twilight highlands, obsidian ore in hyjal
spark tusk
I go mining for therapy so I only ever prospect the r3 ores I gather myself
r3 ores are sometimes ok, if you already have them I would defo prospect iron/aq (obviously not bismuth, save for crushing)
They're sometimes ok to buy to prospect too
swift tinsel
Did some herb farming in Vashjir the other night for the first time in like 12 years
spark tusk
Sometimes not
oblique grove
I got a mad queens for the last raid week
alpine wraith
Round and round it goes, I hope for a change or something novel but the line mus...
me crafting half a million bolts
oblique grove
where do I use it
swift tinsel
Yeah I use my bismuth exclusively for crushing
alpine wraith
IM READY
swift tinsel
Steve be chillin on his pillow
alpine wraith
he does not know sub rogue spirit's got another uppercut
swift tinsel
he's blissfully unaware
(he was chewing on my hair while I was testing sectechs a bit ago)
lapis hatch
Praying for one rogue spec to be competitive this season
swift tinsel
<#1146207476983812117>
what is this lovely haven
sly shore
Pet
swift tinsel
overall nerf
oblique grove
this is what I get for waking up at 11pm
shell willow
Better not be an Outlaw tier...
rocky totem
Is sectec still bugged on PTR
rocky totem
tardy badge
Rogue got nerfed?
solar geode
not a fan of these rng tiersets imuch prefer the idea of the ones that add little flourishes to your abilities
tardy badge
all specs? Tier? or wut
molten citrus
pins
tardy badge
stinky stinky blizz
clear osprey
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
sonic quail
Better not be an Outlaw tier...
never that
native zodiac
am i seeing this correctly on the pin that we lost dps even with the flat % buff 
chrome palm
What’s worse, it’s a loss to peak burst which is the primary reason for bringing sub in the first place 
alpine wraith
we lost quite a bit of burst
chrome palm
It also makes transmitter less valuable in comparison to house of cards
This is our punishment for complaining about doing the transmitter mini game
swift tinsel
This season is shaping up to feel pretty forgettable
As in I’m going to mentally block it out
Watching Whispyr’s recent vid and the only gist I’m getting across the board is that everything from trinkets to gear and tuning is just thrown together
pliant topaz
🙂
swift tinsel
Like I wanna hear the reasoning lol
pliant topaz
🔮
swift tinsel
That’s honestly probably how they made these decisions
kind bluff
i was so hyped to
celest iron
are we back
sick jackal
Gonna put in just enough effort to keep my raid spot and play with friends
same i think
swift tinsel
Idk maybe it’s my last season lol
plain zodiac
if rogue is as ass as your saying u might be best of finding some warriors for dps buff lmao
sick jackal
if rogue is as ass as your saying u might be best of finding some warriors for d...
dont think its about good or bad
the design is bad atm
plain zodiac
tbf i dont even agree
sick jackal
reward players for not pressing evis just to not drop tier stacks is just bad design atm
sick jackal
oh on ptr u mean
yeah
sick jackal
rupture
for 25 secs just cdr
or snd
or how deathstalker works trying to avoid our capstone talent
plain zodiac
O_ o no gusta
sick jackal
idc how much dmg we do the playstyle feels bad atm
sick jackal
pretty sure that isn't a thing anymore
oh thats good then
molten citrus
if you say so
sick jackal
imo at least
steel horizon
After these set of tuning thats probably not a thing yeah. They nerfed tier big time
molten citrus
the nerf makes it not a thing anymore
unless you're in a nuanced situation where you want to sace stacks, then you can still do it
plain zodiac
The last time i saw casualaddict play sub on ptr i cant remember he pressed snd / rupture over evis tho and his dmg was really goo
good*
molten citrus
like before a damage amp phase or end of a pack
tribal blade
The last time i saw casualaddict play sub on ptr i cant remember he pressed snd ...
he had bugged tier set for a while
so he had perma 10 stacks
wouldn't read too much into that
plain zodiac
oh thats why ty
molten citrus
not everyone testing on ptr was doing everything correctly either
tribal blade
yeah sub was hard gapping everyone when tier wasn't resetting
plain zodiac
not everyone testing on ptr was doing everything correctly either
true dat
molten citrus
running wrong talents, using a rotation that wasn't necessarily min maxed etc
fathom gazelle
is it RiP for sub?
plain zodiac
but pls tell me whether shuriken storm is a thing now or not
molten citrus
wdym
tribal blade
you mean nado?
plain zodiac
he played it
molten citrus
no
plain zodiac
me personally im no big fan of that
molten citrus
nado is ass
plain zodiac
on low key maybe
steel horizon
Well at least RS bug is being fixed 🙃
tribal blade
nah you just pick up TFD
plain zodiac
when i have -1 rupture value
tribal blade
or premed, i forget which talent they're dropping for nado
plain zodiac
Replicating Shadows ig
plain zodiac
if mobs dont live very longi dont see much value in rupture being 20% stronger etc.
swift tinsel
Veiltouched for Nado iirc
tribal blade
that's not it's value, it's value comes from spreading rupture
plain zodiac
to a dead target ?
tribal blade
and rupture spreading gains value the higher in key level you go
you also lose a bunch of cleave damage
honest saddle
most packs in 12-13-14 keys live a full rupture
plain zodiac
true dat but in low keys im not running that im playing nado having the time of my life
honest saddle
it gets value
tribal blade
i would still run RS in lower keys
plain zodiac
Rn im playing 14 and rupture is a big gain
honest saddle
yeah good shout
plain zodiac
what are wm and tfd?
honest saddle
the first dance
swift tinsel
Weaponmaster and the first dance
clever delta
Are we outlaw now
plain zodiac
I didnt wanna take it bcs i tell mytanks i dont need restealth lmao
tribal blade
iirc eleem said WM overtakes TFD at like 3:50 or higher ST fight length
plain zodiac
1 reason i stopped assa and now i have to do it again ?= :/
tribal blade
i can't remember the exact number
molten citrus
1 reason i stopped assa and now i have to do it again ?= :/
you don't HAVE to do it
even on assa
molten citrus
proper chain pulling is better for damage and timing the key
swift tinsel
plain zodiac
even on assa
assa is absolute shit to play without restealth i dont enjoy it whatsoever
swift tinsel
Sounds right, tfd is .4% ahead at 3min
tribal blade
1 reason i stopped assa and now i have to do it again ?= :/
you don't need to get it to proc on every single pull for it to be good
tribal blade
having TFD active on a pull is such a big gain over having WM in big M+ pulls
plain zodiac
But when you drop weaponmaster doesnt that affext aoe prio ? with what you want to generate combo points?
swift tinsel
Nah wm is kinda ass
tribal blade
well not huge gain, but bigger than what WM gives
tribal blade
hits from WM don't apply to nimble iirc
swift tinsel
And wm doesn’t flurry
tribal blade
which is why WM sucks in aoe
plain zodiac
I was thinking shuriken storm bcs worth it to press even on below 5 targets because of macabre buff
swift tinsel
Nope that bug atill exists even on ptr
plain zodiac
And wm doesn’t flurry
O_ o convinced
swift tinsel
You don’t play around macabre
tribal blade
I was thinking shuriken storm bcs worth it to press even on below 5 targets beca...
nah nado is dogshit
swift tinsel
Not worth
tribal blade
on trickster
plain zodiac
ill try TFD now ty for your guys input
swift tinsel
Wm is just another talent that found its way into our tree without having a good reason to be there
plain zodiac
lmao
swift tinsel
Which describes like 60% of our spec tree
plain zodiac
i thought they wanted sub to be better thats why we got trickster in the first place lmao
bcs now we can evis in aoe so we are way better
tribal blade
if you think about it you're extending your first dance in cds with TFD by 50%
swift tinsel
Even for trickster
plain zodiac
but you still dont play around macabre even if your SD is longer from TFD?
plain zodiac
not always about the dps tho sometimes i still press evis for prio dps
plain zodiac
that's an extra 4 seconds of a fully ramped dance
thats why im wondering
cuz you keep that macabre buff longer its maybe worth to sac a global
swift tinsel
Nah not really
molten citrus
?
plain zodiac
are there sims for that or just a trust me bro kind of thing
molten citrus
you do storm once for danse
tribal blade
the 1 storm you cast is purely to apply FW to all targets
plain zodiac
the 1 storm you cast is purely to apply FW to all targets
yes and not for Danse
tribal blade
that's the problem with trickster that rotten fixes
swift tinsel
^
tribal blade
yes and not for Danse
well danse stack as well doesn't hurt
swift tinsel
Yeah it’s more a byproduct
molten citrus
the wowhead guide is a wee bit scuffed then or
plain zodiac
the wowhead guide is a wee bit scuffed then or
tbf i learned sub from watching cmlo and now talking with you guys havent seen a good guide on sub YET
swift tinsel
P sure it’s also why BS in dance isn’t a thing anymore too
molten citrus
it says to take WM and to storm once for DM on 5+
molten citrus
tbf i learned sub from watching cmlo and now talking with you guys havent seen a...
the wowhead guide is very good, there's just a couple pain points
mostly on miniscule shit
that wouldn't matter either way