subtlety

[hazy breach]

They were

Its not a new bug

I just thought i accidently hit an evis that reset my stacks but the buff wasnt dropping before

[alpine wraith]

they went from not working at all to now just bugging out sometimes because they reset their own buff

[hazy breach]

Like the difference is that i can see the buffs dropping, so i know it didnt drop

[alpine wraith]

so it was never not bugged

[hazy breach]

But the same thing happened before

[steel zinc]

That won't get fixed

And will scuff sims

[lilac stag]

finally got around to

[hazy breach]

[lilac stag]

or we just figure out an override of some sorts

something scuffed with sub going into NA beta test. Everyone is shocked.

would be more shocking if the devs actually looked at it. Havoc seems to be the teams priority

[swift tinsel]

10.2 flashbacks

[steel zinc]

Havoc is omega busted

[lilac stag]

I mean they were broken broken and now broken

[slate marlin]

Same with all busted specs atm, they need to survive next 2 weeks of balance tuning+rwf balance tuning+early season balance tuning

[vale pine]

congrats

[lilac stag]

From hunters. 13 priory.

Maybe we just shit.

[vestal escarp]

[thin lion]

So there is a whole team of people which are certainly earning enough money to buy my mom and for the last apprx. 6 weeks are not able to fix the class, and I dont mean tuning im just speaking about making the class to work as intended, can I also apply for the job I mean I dont have a clue about programming and IT either

[vestal escarp]

Buff sin so rog can play m+

[lilac stag]

@random hare why aren’t you pumping like this? #subtlety message

[thin lion]

https://tenor.com/view/patrick-meditate-zen-spongebob-gif-5626530

It hasnt been long since I decided to main rogue, but its a hell of a emotional rollercoaster. If it has been Like this every time, U old dogs must have the mental strength my mom wished I had in school

[vestal escarp]

[lilac stag]

Wake me up in March. This channel will be back to normal by then.

[mint swift]

Rogue chats are never normal

[lilac stag]

this channel was very normal. Happens when there’s ~20 people all enjoying something in common

[upper narwhal]

Just wait until Sub becomes meta

the yellow names will come pouring in

[lilac stag]

I’ll be dead by the time that happens

[mint swift]

Tbh I talk I’m this channel

It isn’t normal if I’m talking

[lilac stag]

do you actually play sub? Genuinely curious.

[mint swift]

Yea

I play sub on M+ like every now and then
I played the spec for a few seasons aswell

Just play assa atm

[lilac stag]

when I say ~20 it’s more the dummies like myself that just hyper focus on sub

Rogue is whatever.

I can play assa. I don’t consider myself an assa player or enjoyer.

I just send quake dog picts in their channel.

I think most people lurking here like the idea of sub. Play it and get frustrated quickly.

[umbral saddle]

Hey, i wanted to ask someone.
I’ve been playing rogue quite alot in this season.

This is my first exspansion to play wow, and i’ve played every class.

I’ve liked rogue, pala, sham alot this season, so i wanted to ask anyone with knorledge on how to interpritet the class changes for season two.

How is subtlety looking into s2?

[lilac stag]

we have no changes

[umbral saddle]

Is that a good thing or a bas thing?

I see many classes getting bunch of changes

[lilac stag]

I mean look at that playrate this season

Tuning hasn’t happened fully

If you like the spec play it

If you’re meta hunting it’s likely not here.

[umbral saddle]

I’ve been playing assasination quite alot in this s1, and liked it alot.

But i dont wanna do the same for two season, since i wanna experience the game. So i dont really know what im jumping into in when it comes to subtlety.

[grand wyvern]

30sec of glory and 1 min of pain

[vale pine]

also

please don't post the same message in all channels ^^

no changes is not entirely correct, we saw some bugfixes which is good

to answer power level

subtlety offers a lot of burst, so even if it is overall not the strongers dps it will for sure see use for this reason

[umbral saddle]

Yea, i’ve heard that sublety is very strong for raid, and assasination for m+.

This season i was maining pala so i raided on my pala. But this next season, i’ve decided to fully invest in rogue. So that was why i asked in assasination and sublety, because i might play assa in m+. But highly to sublety in raiding content

[vale pine]

assassiantion was extremely dominant this season

you basically had no reason to ever play something else

it was mostly because of tuning and power creep in their talents

but power level will change in the next patch, e.g. the new tier set can impact one specs position, trinkets can, etc.

subtlety was buggy on ptr, which is why streamers picked it up

it is still buggy, but also in some not beneficial ways

[lilac stag]

We got no changes. We got bugs fixed, which should have happened 10 months ago.

[vale pine]

The tier set itself, assuming no bugs seems a bit too good, it is why we expect tuning changes

[lilac stag]

maybe Armin still playing if they actually fixed bugs on sub

[vale pine]

but like, if you want to know NOW what to play in the patch

you are out of luck

there is only one profession who can help you on that

called fortune tellers

[mint swift]

For fun?

[lilac stag]

I think any of us that consider ourselves sub mains can easily enough swap to assa and play it. The reverse is not necessarily the case.

[umbral saddle]

Nono im pretty sure i Will be maining my rogue, im just kinda worried about getting into a new spec as sublety, because i heard the cd management is Hard

[lilac stag]

No fun allowed

[vale pine]

i think people would ask "whats the most fun" if they want to find that out

[umbral saddle]

And i’ve looked at it a few times, but couldn’t rlly get the grasp of it

[mint swift]

Tbh it is fun to go between dps huge busting dude to wet towel

[vale pine]

just take your time and ask if you are not sure

but a quick tl;dr of sub cooldown management

you use your 1 min 30 cooldowns with 2x dance, 2x symbols 2x secret

[lilac stag]

What do you not grasp?

[vale pine]

and in between align your cooldowns (dance/symbols) around secret techniques

[umbral saddle]

Everything, when i look at it its like a plate with 5 different means on it. Everything smells good tho

[vale pine]

so essentially the core gameplay is to make sure to have the 2x dance 2x symbols during the 1 min 30 cooldowns (blaes/flag)

[twilit phoenix]

finally getting the hang of DS sub

[vale pine]

and deciding when to spend or wait between

[lilac stag]

Sectech is the meal. Everything else is ingredients

[mint swift]

Make black powder apply mark

[vale pine]

the spec is not extremely intuitive

[twilit phoenix]

mark management feels so much easier on sub ngl

[vale pine]

thats true

[umbral saddle]

I suppose i need a few WA to track theese at all time

Is there a Big difference for single target and aoe scenarios? In the rotation

[vale pine]

just like on any spec in the game

you typically want to know when your cooldowns are up

[lilac stag]

Not really

[vale pine]

there are some details

but if you start out, you can also play it simpler

[lilac stag]

Drizzle in a storm every second builder in dance. Hit BP at 5+ target.

[vale pine]

e.g. for trickster, you would start using bp on 5+ targets

but its fine to just keep using evis during cooldowns

and over time transition to making more detailed decisions

[umbral saddle]

I’ve find this so interestesting, because the classes i’ve played alot, either have mid cds and High cds. Like u pop ur cds every minut -3 minuts but sublety its like the cds is into the Core rotation, or i might be totally wrong

[lilac stag]

Sub is its own monster

[umbral saddle]

This might be why im not quite there for my brain to understand it

[solemn creek]

cose mark was awfully designed for assa.. should have been around rupture or something u dont use once every 2 min XD

[lilac stag]

Why very few play it

It’s anti wow spec design.

also why some of us play it

[twilit phoenix]

you taking about sub or sin?

[lilac stag]

why would I be talking about assa?

[twilit phoenix]

there's a sin comment right above yours

[umbral saddle]

There is some Honor in mastering it then

[lilac stag]

And I’m ignoring it

Fuck deathstalker

[twilit phoenix]

DS sub kinda bangs though ngl

in raid at least

[lilac stag]

You can usually surprise people with your dmg

[twilit phoenix]

i was a DS hater chud, and then I tried it

bangs for sure

in keys though, I cba

DS playstyle in keys is ass

[umbral saddle]

What content have u played this season as sub?

[swift tinsel]

I love having less cdr

and DN

[twilit phoenix]

you do more damage

[lilac stag]

7/8 mythic progging queen

[grand wyvern]

who thought it would be a good idea to make you press aoe builder in single target

[lilac stag]

Keys. Idk 11-12? I can’t be bothered with m+ this season

I’m also disable (eye issues)

So yay it’s fun and I enjoy the challenge

[umbral saddle]

That is same for me aswell, i reached 3.1k on Pally and 3,almost1 k on rogue.

I hope to do around the same as a sub tho

[lilac stag]

it’s bugs were also infuriating

Thankfully one fixed (hopefully still once it hits live)

[twilit phoenix]

all 3 specs have been a banger to play this tier (barring bugs)

[lilac stag]

M+ if you have friends ez. Pugging as sub can be a challenge

[twilit phoenix]

a sub tier would be cool in undermine

[lilac stag]

tanks will impact your dps more than say assa where your bleeds just pop off

[umbral saddle]

I’ve pugged entire season, it was awfull

[lilac stag]

one of our better m+ talents requires us to actually get out of combat and in stealth for a considerable amount of time

[grand wyvern]

same and the higher you go in key the easier it gets unironically up to +12

[umbral saddle]

So true, i find 12-13 easier than even 8-10s just because of cluelesness in those Keys. 14+ there is a bit of 12s cluelesness in 🤣

[umbral saddle]

We Will see, this chat definetly motivated me, i just needed a push to go into it with both feet

I guess i Will be stück on the dolls in dorn a few hours a day the next week or two, and hopefully be blasting after

Oh yea, the stats, is that the same as assa rogue?

[swift tinsel]

mastery/vers

typically

[umbral saddle]

Im crit/mast rn on my rogue

[swift tinsel]

crit isn't bad

only one that's truly meh is haste bc we don't really benefit from it much

bc we're essentially energy capped in cd's

[umbral saddle]

Do u as a sub, get into situations in longer durationed fights, where u low on energy? Like assa

[lilac stag]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[swift tinsel]

ty

was about to send that lol

[lilac stag]

I have more haste apparently

[umbral saddle]

How Long is this burst Window for an experienced sub player?

[swift tinsel]

25 seconds or so

for flag/blades

[lunar bluff]

yuh blackpowder at like 3 target feels doodoo

[umbral saddle]

And then its like 30 secunds with no dps or?

[swift tinsel]

there's a bit of an ebb and flow with sod/dance/sectech between major cooldowns

main thing is making sure you have 2x sod/dance/sectech for every flag/blades window

[umbral saddle]

I see, i should prob log my rogue and start practicing

[swift tinsel]

practice is very important for sub

[umbral saddle]

Sounds alot, and i wanna be prepped for s2

[swift tinsel]

first step is nailing your cooldown window

bc that's where most of your damage will come from in fights

then get used to when you can send your shorter cooldowns between flag/blades

[lilac stag]

figuring our CDR is generally the speed bump

and that will change without a shaman

well the flow will

[umbral saddle]

Is shaman important for a sub rogue?

[swift tinsel]

extremely

[umbral saddle]

How come?

[swift tinsel]

I think eleem said something like 12% more cp from skyfury

[lilac stag]

More cp. more cdr. More mastery

[swift tinsel]

its the single most important buff for sub

[umbral saddle]

Ugh so i gotta find myself a shaman buddy for my m+ content for season two

[swift tinsel]

shouldn't be hard

[umbral saddle]

So much homework

Hard to find a good one

I did play a bit of enc sham aswell, only hot to 2.8k Rio tho

Do yall Watch a certain sub streamer/youtuber for knorledge that you recommend?

[swift tinsel]

I just hang out in here

ask questions when I have them

Eleem and Hachadino have solid videos

[granite river]

hachadino's stuff i find to be very detailed and informative

[lilac stag]

Kush on occasion streams

Eleem has a intro video

All 3 guides are good.

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[granite river]

what is Eleems YT channel called? couldnt find it earlier

[lilac stag]

!wa LE’s pack is probably best overall for sub imo

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[swift tinsel]

might have to search for "Eleem rogue"

look for the Raichu

[slate lantern]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUltGUGtuVw

(Just because sometimes I've had trouble finding it even when I searched eleem rogue )

[lilac stag]

I still think the thumb need the 2% gray on there

[granite river]

yeah same, i googled eleem rogue wow and just now found it

[slate lantern]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uQH2cyFpJH9eVS_GC58EHYylpZM7Qtqt-CfHCF-pRBY/edit?gid=161258119#gid=161258119

Also Hacha's sheet is great, the full guide video is very nice for a total introduction

I like the visual representation of the different CD window timings as I am learning

[umbral saddle]

The choise between deathstalker or trickstar, does it have a siginificant influence on ur dps output?

[lilac stag]

No. Just one sucks to play

Trickster is what you want.

[umbral saddle]

I played deathstalker on assa xD

[lilac stag]

it fixes many of the base spec design issues with CDR

[umbral saddle]

Trickstar for sublety

[lilac stag]

mmhm

you wanted something new

[umbral saddle]

I fo

Do

[lilac stag]

Never touch DS as sub.

[umbral saddle]

Imma play trickstar

[lilac stag]

but I don’t have any strong opinions on our awful hero talents.

[umbral saddle]

What race do yall play?

Mine is a orc

[slate lantern]

Goblin, BIS stealth animation

[worn cape]

Same! Love that animation

[slate lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/grinch-cartoon-tiptoeing-tiptoe-tip-gif-24192651

[granite river]

DS slaps 11.1 i fear

[umbral saddle]

That looks so cool

Gives me kinda Jack sparrow vibes

[tepid trellis]

trickster is the way

[umbral saddle]

Just Saw it on yt

[elfin hound]

https://tenor.com/view/dance-game-gif-26870104

[umbral saddle]

Do yall Marco shadow Dance with thisle tea?

[swift tinsel]

good guys win

(don't follow ptr sims as gospel)

[tulip gorge]

is sub saved?

[worn cape]

We’re more the coffee kind

[tulip gorge]

how about dungeon slice

[lilac stag]

It does not.

[worn cape]

We don’t use tea.

[granite river]

in my key testing and vod watching, it is doing dam

[lilac stag]

Good for you

I love watching broken tier vods

[granite river]

brother what about the tier is broken at this point

[swift tinsel]

BP pad strong with broken tier set

[granite river]

stacks fall off

[tepid trellis]

stacks drops 50% more than it should sectech doesent work 2/3 of the time

before that stacks would never drop

[cinder steppe]

tier not working and sub still pumping?

[tepid trellis]

thus making DS do more than it should with how strong BP is for the spec

[tepid trellis]

it got hyped up while it was bugged

[tulip gorge]

you have no idea how happy I am we still play trickster

[lilac stag]

Pumping

[tepid trellis]

30% perm dmg buff from bp does indeed make it look very good

[granite river]

ok i didnt know this

[swift tinsel]

dslice

seems off though

[cinder steppe]

am i crazy that i miss sub from season 2 dragon flight ?

it was so fun

[lilac stag]

Yes

[tepid trellis]

yes

very

[cinder steppe]

lol

[lilac stag]

It sucked

[tepid trellis]

seek help

[cinder steppe]

i will

[tepid trellis]

i recommend therapy

[twilit phoenix]

cock n ball therapy

[tepid trellis]

or it will leave lasting dmg

[cinder steppe]

i played outlaw in season3

[lilac stag]

or just play outlaw

[cinder steppe]

yea

[twilit phoenix]

also trickster is fucking SICK

outlaw season 3 was the shit fr fr

[tepid trellis]

yeh "shit"

[twilit phoenix]

are those s2 sims real though?

is trickster really that far head of DS atm

[tepid trellis]

early ptr sims

[lilac stag]

Play tickster outlaw with that s2 take

[tepid trellis]

alot can still change

[twilit phoenix]

hmm would be pretty sweet if it stayed that way

I really enjoy trickster sub

[slate lantern]

i made a mod to my deskchair that anytime i press KS in pve content a large 2x4 swings right into my nads

[granite river]

but without perma stacks

[granite river]

perma stacks fixed tho yeah?

[swift tinsel]

Take all ptr sims with a grain of salt

[tepid trellis]

yeh it was fixed this week

[cinder steppe]

so how dose it look this week?

[lilac stag]

Take everything on ptr with a grain of salt.

[cinder steppe]

still good dam?

[tepid trellis]

its okay

[lilac stag]

It’s not meta if that’s what you’re asking

[cinder steppe]

still good dam when cds not rdy?

[lilac stag]

Haha

[umbral saddle]

What is the meta classes in ptr?

[cinder steppe]

dumb question ik

[lilac stag]

Have you played the spec?

[vestal escarp]

sub?

[lilac stag]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[cinder steppe]

i just want sub to be meta dont @ me

[tepid trellis]

i dont

makes my life harder

just upper middle of the pack and im good

[lilac stag]

Certain people want BP spam meta. They need to go back to wherever they crawled out of.

[vale pine]

i don't think sub can be meta

even if it was good

people did stick to assass

[vestal escarp]

it cant anymore

this season tuning was close between the three and good for sub

and still it happened what happened

[swift tinsel]

Top third would be nice

just under meta to keep the fotm out

[tepid trellis]

meta it would have to be significantly stronger, similar to how it was in season 1-2 of DF

[lilac stag]

Enough people playing it that it registers on RIO would be nice

[swift tinsel]

^

but low enough for BTM

jk jk BTM is a meme

[vale pine]

yes, but i doubt blizz will allow that

[swift tinsel]

nah can't have sin and sub both be that strong

[tepid trellis]

well they have allowed outlaw to stay dog tier for 9 years of raiding

[vestal escarp]

i mean you cant rely on overtuning of a spec to be meta

[tepid trellis]

so why not

[vale pine]

haha

[swift tinsel]

double outlaw keys

[vestal escarp]

unless you're shaman

[vale pine]

outlaw down bad

[swift tinsel]

gone are the days

[vale pine]

but outlaw was quite dominant in m+

guess not anymore

[tepid trellis]

hasent been since bfa

[swift tinsel]

was BFA the last time they were

[twilit phoenix]

triple outlaw keys in s3 DF

[swift tinsel]

last I remember seeing it

[twilit phoenix]

Zac, Casual, and Zero timing that 30 TOT

triple outlaw

it was like a r1 key

[vestal escarp]

i saw a RISE run of zac zeross and kush

they wiped at the maiden part of the first pull

[cinder steppe]

was target cap not an issue back then or outlaw didint have cap at that time?

[tepid trellis]

nothing was target capped back then

but outlaw had a turbo broken azerite trait

called Keep your wits about you

[kind edge]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[cinder steppe]

damn

[vale pine]

subtlety also did not rly compete in aoe for most of its existence

and assassination was in between

[swift tinsel]

didn't black powder not exist until bfa

[vale pine]

yes

it did not exist in bfa

and it was extremely bad in SL

DF was the first time it did some damage

[swift tinsel]

ah thats right

[vestal escarp]

Bp was alright s2 and 3 of SL, well alright for being BP

[vale pine]

BP got changed in SL

mid SL

the physical damage of it was buffed

but the shadow damage part nerfed

so overall nerf in scaling but buff in base damage

given that FW had lower uptime in aoe back then

was a momentary buff

however DF was the first time it did competitive damage

and even got nerfed after

it is why i am still surprised assassiantion was not touched since beta

[swift tinsel]

touched as in their aoe?

[vale pine]

10.2 also nerfed aoe again, because we have less energy in aoe

and ofc also more damage in cooldowns ever since

[vestal escarp]

spatter got nerfed 10.0 fuu

[vale pine]

keep in mind that BP is extremely buffed

we got a huge buff in TWW

[swift tinsel]

spatter didn't exist until 10.2 I thought

[vale pine]

and it is still worse than assassiantions aoe

[vale pine]

it did not

it came with a big rework to the assassiantion tree

[swift tinsel]

I've had a few friends pick up sin and say they have no idea where their aoe damage comes from and how its always there

yeah that's what I thought

[vale pine]

in an attempt to make it competitive in cleave and aoe

i mean just to be clear

i am not saying anything needs a nerf

or hate on a spec

but just logically seen, it made no sense to keep the damage of something this extreme

because historically things like this got nerfed heavily

[fallow nimbus]

You are allowed to hate on it

[vestal escarp]

yes

[swift tinsel]

isn't the tradeoff supposed to be they have this big aoe bc their single target is lacking when specced that way

[vestal escarp]

bp numbers are silly rn

[cinder steppe]

atleast do some changes after one season

[vale pine]

assassination does the best aoe and st ^^

but needs more than one target

[swift tinsel]

but they have to pick

[vale pine]

so yes

its single target is worse

if you have ONLY one target

but if you have more

well

and having more than one target is def. not common in m+ or raid

[swift tinsel]

in the sense of m+ where their aoe is most pronounced, isn't the tradeoff that their boss damage suffers

[vale pine]

[half comet]

Are any new rotational changes in the tc channels?

[vale pine]

there are no real rotational changes so far

[half comet]

O damn

[vale pine]

we still try out if we

well

i don't know if i want to forshadow bad gameplay

but there is potential to not use evis outside of cooldowns

to keep the stacks

[vestal escarp]

yes the tradeoff of a well made tree is that you take point on a side and dont benefit from another

[half comet]

Nice

[vale pine]

which could happen

[half comet]

No daggers rogue

[willow pawn]

sub fixed on ptr?

[half comet]

Powder one trick

[willow pawn]

we do worse damage now?

[vale pine]

nope

well you would rupture and snd

not bp

[swift tinsel]

from playing on ptr it actually doesn't really hurt to evisc outside of specific conditions between cooldowns

[vale pine]

because you want to keep your stacks

which sounds...

not very fun

[half comet]

Oh yeah I see

Surely that wont to through

Surely.

[swift tinsel]

and if they fix the 15% reset it'll be a lot less gamba

[vale pine]

cooldowns probably will be played exactly the same

[swift tinsel]

only real change I see is no sod/sectech without dance

which was what, once per 1.5 min cycle maybe

[willow pawn]

how many targets do we prioritize storm spam over shadowstrike?

8+?

[swift tinsel]

Chuffa's said something about only not-eviscing at flag cd <20sec like we do with sectech atm being a gain

which I tried out and its actually fairly reliable

but likely nothing wrong with fully anti-gamble playing outside of dance if youre realllllly worried about it

[vestal escarp]

it doesnt work like that anymore, builders have more specific use cases

depending on hero talents and talents choices

[willow pawn]

trickster rotten build

with shurikan storm

[vestal escarp]

in dance you press strike at all target counts as your builder but you want to use storm to cosnumer second rotten charge

[vale pine]

yes

[shell willow]

why storm on 2nd rotten charge?

[willow pawn]

35% damage increase and it crits

not sure why 2nd

tho

[vestal escarp]

rotten is bugged and storm consumes both charges if avaible

[willow pawn]

ahh

i dont spec premed for tornado build

[vestal escarp]

and strike crits do a lot of dmg so you wanna use rotten with strike in some capacity

tornado might not be the best talent choice for trickster

[willow pawn]

feels really good for some dungeons like cinder first pull and workshop first pull

just feels fun doing like 20mil xD

[shell willow]

Okay these aren't ST scenarios. I was tweaking

[willow pawn]

But for like ToP ill spec into premed

but i keep the first dance for both

instead of weaponmaster

You guys feel a difference speccing into tea path instead of cold blood?

[vale pine]

there is a bug

but you essentially want to use premediation on strike

and then storm for the find weakness spread

[shell willow]

okay makes sense

[vale pine]

(the bug is, storm will consume both rotten stacks because it does consume per target hit)

https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/issues/1141

is the bug

its old

[half comet]

Do people stilll hold cold blood for the second sec tec

[vestal escarp]

better fix backstab

[shell willow]

damn bugs galore

[steel zinc]

What are the boes in s2?

[hexed sluice]

Boots pretty sure

forget the other

[swift tinsel]

helm

heavy haste/crit helm*

[uneven scarab]

ew

[lilac stag]

Ez mythic tier

[granite river]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[vestal escarp]

watch tier helm be haste heavy as well

[swift tinsel]

heavy vers/haste

Gloves should be the only tier slot w/o mastery or vers

ooo ptr update time

[clever delta]

big changes for rogue

[lilac stag]

pTR UpDaTe. SUB SAVED

[clever delta]

frfr

[lilac stag]

we're so back

[jolly pasture]

never left?

[lilac stag]

never here

[swift tinsel]

always has been

[jolly pasture]

sub tier every tier

[lilac stag]

how many can say they did that in BFA

[young path]

I play similar, I usually spec tea for Ara in the current season

Helps overall damage significantly with everything up until 2nd boss imo

But then again, if ur tank is watching your CDs and timing “go’s” accordingly, cold blood way better

Lately I’ve dropped replicating shadows and using that point for first dance too…. That build I believe has a niche with a well timed tornado (ie last few seconds of a dance window that has giga DM and flawless stacks into BP spamming… ridiculous numba’s)

[tepid trellis]

https://tenor.com/view/brother-ew-ew-what-is-that-whats-that-brother-gif-14318384540422820315

[marsh magnet]

so we still shit?

[uneven scarab]

BBROTHER EWWW

No?

We arent shit on live

[marsh magnet]

on m+ i mean

[swift tinsel]

not shit in m+ either

[marsh magnet]

tier B is shit

[uneven scarab]

No its not

tier lists are shit

[swift tinsel]

also tier lists are arbitrary

and shit

[slate lantern]

but muh archon

[swift tinsel]

archon deez nutz

[uneven scarab]

Frfr

[marsh magnet]

ok delulu ppl i got all the information i needed

shit still

[uneven scarab]

Lmfao

https://tenor.com/view/stallipiano-gif-8633409668543310298

[lilac stag]

100% not meta. Needs too many braincells.

[tepid trellis]

interesting

a person following tierlists

calling people delusional

[uneven scarab]

[tepid trellis]

how the turned tables have

[uneven scarab]

tell me about it

[slate lantern]

i feel honored ❤️

[swift tinsel]

all hail our lord and savior Petko

[swift tinsel]

I knew this would come in handy the moment you posted it lmao

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/baby-yoda-sipping-his-drink-the-mandalorian-star-wars-cute-gif-16182464

[marsh magnet]

Out of 200 top dps in raider.io just 6 rogues. All 6 are Assa. Subtlety is still shit in M+ confirmed 😛

[uneven scarab]

just because a spec is underplayed

[steel zinc]

You mind sharing?

[uneven scarab]

Does not mean its shit

[slate lantern]

are you in the 200 top dps in raider.io

[marsh magnet]

is not about low pop. is about that no subtlety has pushed enough to be in top 200s

[swift tinsel]

can right-click and save

[marsh magnet]

i wonder why...

[steel zinc]

the link

[marsh magnet]

because Sub is shit

[steel zinc]

the link to the sim

[lilac stag]

you need 3 braincells to play it.

Most m+ stop at 1 brain cell

[uneven scarab]

^

[sand ore]

Deep breaths

[swift tinsel]

ah I closed it a while ago

sry

[marsh magnet]

we are not speaking of being able, or being in the top 200s. My question was if Subtlety is still shit.

[steel zinc]

History :p

[marsh magnet]

People get so defensive when they attack "their" spec/

[thin lion]

not meta = shit, I see

[uneven scarab]

actually u never asked, you just came in here claiming it was shit

[tepid trellis]

The real answer to that is. Assa does slightly more dmg from less efforts we are talking within a few %

[uneven scarab]

when you were told you were wrong

[lilac stag]

No people just call you out on bullshit when your descriptive are the equivalent of a 1st grader going poopies

[slate lantern]

Calling a spec shit because its just not represented in the top 0.001% of the game is just stupid, sorry

[lilac stag]

if the spec is bad, people would say it

[marsh magnet]

so good or bad is fun?

[tepid trellis]

also everybody means "is the spec shit" in different ways

[jolly pasture]

unfortunately these are rules you play by because the whole community thinks like this

[lilac stag]

Deathstalker, for example, is shit.

[marsh magnet]

not about if is meta and u get invited faster on M+?

[thin lion]

yes and now go play ret pala or bm hunter

[marsh magnet]

i play neither

[tepid trellis]

to me shit would mean you arent able to get title on it

which you very much are

[marsh magnet]

is that the 2k r.io?

[lilac stag]

Be one of 47374 Ret applying to dps and see how those invites roll in

[tepid trellis]

no?

[swift tinsel]

or can't be competitive in damage, which sub certainly is

[marsh magnet]

what i disliked was needing to go invi to do a good opening and chain pulls fuck u up

[uneven scarab]

bro doesnt even know title ranking, and hes claiming sub is shit and talking about top 200

Chain pulls do not fuck up sub in the slightest

btw

[tepid trellis]

would be this

thats title

[marsh magnet]

i dont have time to play that much

but good for u! Grats

[uneven scarab]

[lilac stag]

Imagine if you didn’t play shit sub

[marsh magnet]

so is Subtlety going to be tier A atleast? so u don't get discriminated when pugging?

i hate assa having to wait for energy pooling is aids

[tepid trellis]

anything that isnt in the god comp is gonna get discriminated against

so GL with that

[marsh magnet]

that's why i was asking

[lilac stag]

Dude plays a few hours a week. He’s a lost ark main

[marsh magnet]

sorry if my "shit" take was taken too negative

didn't want to trigger the chat like that

[swift tinsel]

how would you expect it to be taken?

[uneven scarab]

Bro u came in here with some massive hater energy

[tepid trellis]

nobody knows whats gonna be meta next tier

[swift tinsel]

lmao

[marsh magnet]

i have never played lost ark too p2w

[uneven scarab]

What did you expect yeah

[marsh magnet]

i didnt hate at all

[tepid trellis]

the meta evolves over the first month or so of the tier

[marsh magnet]

i asked if it was shit

[lilac stag]

[marsh magnet]

u ppl are just being defensive. but i will be mature enough to say im sorry and let's leave it in the past

[uneven scarab]

🙂

[tepid trellis]

does sub have a shot at it? very likely since it has an absolute insane dmg profile next tier

[marsh magnet]

yeah is still shit is not meta so u will get discriminated in M+ if u have 2 hrs to play max daily u can't play a spec like that sadly

[lilac stag]

And then people will say it’s too hard and move on

[tepid trellis]

then my advice to you is, go play mage

or dont play until the meta is settled

[uneven scarab]

If i can get into 10s+ on an arms warrior i think you can manage

[lilac stag]

Warlock. Not shit. Havoc not ahit.

[swift tinsel]

I need other people to confirm they fixed the on-hit for coup reset

bc I think they might have fixed it *edit they did not

[marsh magnet]

i have been playing Enh and boomy

but i love sub

[lilac stag]

mmhm

[swift tinsel]

its only resetting on first hit

or not at all

[tepid trellis]

anything can change with just 1 week worth of tuning

so anybody who says they know whats gonna be meta

is lying

[marsh magnet]

sadge

welp ty and sorry

[tepid trellis]

next few weeks is gonna be peppered with tuning changes

[lilac stag]

so spend the few hours a day and get 6 classes ready

Ez reroll

Chase the god comp

[uneven scarab]

If it makes you feel better sub looks likely to be the best rogue spec atm but can still change at any time

[marsh magnet]

thats great

outlaw is okish but i hate assa...

having to wait 3-4 seconds for energy wtf is that

😛

[uneven scarab]

Thats assa bruh

[tepid trellis]

just wait until he plays sub more xD

[lilac stag]

oh you’re gonna love sub out of dance.

[uneven scarab]

Intended single target assa design

LMFSO

[tepid trellis]

shits the same here lol

[uneven scarab]

yeah..

[native zodiac]

i was about to say thats not much different to sub

[marsh magnet]

damn :c

[lilac stag]

on to the next discord server

[tepid trellis]

energy classes usually arent global locked

so

[marsh magnet]

thats why Enh is so fun

is like playing drums

[lilac stag]

try fury

Buffed to the gills

[uneven scarab]

Warrior looks good on ptr

[marsh magnet]

😮

[uneven scarab]

Ya

Huge dam

[marsh magnet]

they started the same S1 remember??

then gutted

[uneven scarab]

Yeah

[tepid trellis]

(nerfed in two week)

[lilac stag]

don’t matter

They still slap

[vale pine]

how is enh after the bugfixes?

^^

[lilac stag]

s tier

[tepid trellis]

probably still broken

[lilac stag]

Came down a level

[slate lantern]

busted in 4k

[granite river]

sandbagging

[grave delta]

Is sub rogue saved

[tepid trellis]

im gonna have to chat with wordup

about that sandbagging

i wont let it slide

[marsh magnet]

i even said in this chat ive been playing ENH lmao

[uneven scarab]

we know

Just funny meme

[slate lantern]

more just the going into discords and asking "how we looking next patch" is incredibly meme worthy

[marsh magnet]

really? worked for me so far

started rogue druid and shamy S1

planning to do the same for S2

[lilac stag]

for someone that doesn’t have a lot of time to play that seems like a lot

frfr

[marsh magnet]

lol once u do the campaign u just spam dungeons

rogue is like 610 druid 620 and shamy 637

[lilac stag]

so you have one playable toon

[marsh magnet]

im 31yo i don't have the time anymore brotha

[lilac stag]

just figuring out what your angle is

[marsh magnet]

so if im planning on playing the game i want to b able to pug a fucking dungeon before the day is over

[lilac stag]

have you tried making friends?

[marsh magnet]

no

[lilac stag]

could save you some waiting around

[marsh magnet]

i don't know if u realized but my takes get kinda weird and ppl hate on me

XDD

[sand ore]

I think by weird you mean bad

[marsh magnet]

XDD

[uneven scarab]

LOL

[swift tinsel]

Okay I just chained 10 BP's on 4 targets with FW outside of dance with no reset something is up

[marsh magnet]

im trolling

welp im leaving take care and thanks for the insight

[lilac stag]

What are you trying to sort out?

[swift tinsel]

if they fixed SF affecting reset chance

coup is resetting way less often and same with BP. Might be anecdotal

need to bulk test to get better numbers tho

[barren wren]

do we know what BoEs will drop from new raid ?

[swift tinsel]

helm/boots

[barren wren]

I'm just wondering if there will be something like ring in s1

[lilac stag]

Look at raid guide on ptr

Should show everything

[swift tinsel]

wowhead has them all too in the raid page

only universal slot is neck

[barren wren]

vers/mastery boots

neck is like for assassination

well ty for info

[swift tinsel]

its not bad for sub, we don't have a ver/mastery non-crafted neck

[barren wren]

oof

[swift tinsel]

idr if they cap BoE ilvl but its competetive with our likely BiS

its fine, we have tons of mastery from other gear next season

almost 20k with certain gear setups

[uneven scarab]

The haste mastery neck?

4300 mastery is a good bit

wait does the roulette wheel ring just drop with random stats?

[swift tinsel]

afaik yeah

like throne of four winds raid in cata

[uneven scarab]

Oooh

[barren wren]

imagine vers mastery drop

[uneven scarab]

Thats enticing

Exactly

Even more rng

and when it hits ur gonna pog

[gritty gorge]

Which poisons do we use in M+?

[woven ruin]

any sub ptr players to watch?

[thin lion]

casual addict has some ptr videos on yt

as sub

[woven ruin]

cool

[thin lion]

but remember its bugged on ptr so dmg numbers can be highly inflated or deflated

[uneven scarab]

Instant and atro/numbing

[woven ruin]

still bugged? damn nvm

[thin lion]

and yeah gameplay wise it hasnt changed that much except for minor things like to gambling tier set boni befor flag/blades window

not gambling*

if i read anything written here correct

[formal pollen]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

gameplay is pmuch not big

we might not use evis outside of cooldowns to preserve stacks

but also depends on how the tier works after bugfixes

[swift tinsel]

I think they might have fixed the SF part but I need to look into it more

which I can't really test until tonight

[thin lion]

sorry but i cant wrap my head about it, what does sf stand for?

😄

[swift tinsel]

Shadowed Finishers

its been doubling the reset chance because it counts both the physical and shadow hits of Evisc/BP

so it turns Coup into 6 separate damage events, each with their own 15% chance

and BP gets 2x chances to reset per target hit

which is obviously not ideal lol

[thin lion]

so basically BP and coup rset tier set

[swift tinsel]

did some quick looking when ptr came back up this afternoon but I couldn't spend more than 20mins looking at it

and coup and bp have been resetting seemingly less often

[lilac stag]

So coup and BP don’t seem to be resetting as much. It maybe just me but build seems to take longer to restart after clearing.

[young path]

So much more goes into timing keys than spec…

[lilac stag]

still sitting here after full 90 sec send. other times it's gone at 4

[alpine wraith]

yea rng be rng

aaay

[tepid trellis]

10rppm

and they removed stuff like autos and rupture ticks

so could just be a meh run

[lilac stag]

yea

its very all over just from doing default stuff

[young path]

Here ya go… 14 mists… few days ago, feel free to look up their io’s

[lilac stag]

may actually need to rebind SnD

[young path]

“For the meme’s” sub ain’t “shit” this season

Just under represented

[lilac stag]

to keep it going depending on not spending evic out of dance

[swift tinsel]

I've been having to hard cast it every so often so it might be worth if you're playing full safe-mode

[alpine wraith]

i have some solutions for that kinda

basically you dont insta dance when sec tech is ready after cds

but wait until CB then use dance after that one instead of just after cds

then it gets easier to piggyback the stacks

as in instead of

move the 30 one to the 60-70

[swift tinsel]

I've tried that a bit and it feels pretty good, I'm on board

[alpine wraith]

that way you do the SoD alone at 30 and if it resets you get a lot of time to get them back and also you get 3 dances where you get high stacks

so if you reset after cds until third dance with CB it is whatever

but then you get them all the time

[lilac stag]

Just autoattacking it took 53 seconds to go from 0-10 stacks

[alpine wraith]

yea it is quite safe getting to 10 stacks from that second dance at like 4x to 90

that way you only risk resets at the SoD alone after pull cds

and you reset like 3-5 at most

[swift tinsel]

I thought they took autos off the stacking, unless its from instant poison

[alpine wraith]

depends it also procs from hunt them down and other things

like poisons maybe yea

[lilac stag]

I mean you’re not running around without poisons

[alpine wraith]

they mainly did it for rupture ticks

[swift tinsel]

mostly mean I thought they tied it to ability damage only

yeah rupture was nice so you could get stacks while off boss

[lilac stag]

Poison is a spell 1.5 sec cast time

[swift tinsel]

based

noice

[lilac stag]

rupture does nothing as well

[swift tinsel]

I wonder if they forgot to remove Corrupt the Blood

[alpine wraith]

yea dont tell anyone

about poisons

[lilac stag]

What about poisons?

I was talking rupture.

carefully deletes message history

[swift tinsel]

wondered why chat was jumping around lol

[dry plank]

Boss damage xD

[lilac stag]

We’re so back!

[random comet]

gapped that hunter on healing tho

[vestal escarp]

thats a death

[dry plank]

Nope

[lilac stag]

Zeross would never die

Impossible as sub to die

[dry plank]

He was alive entire fight

[jaunty heath]

Okay but

What fight

This has to be immense downtime

[lilac stag]

But yeah BM and Mage & Locks are all thumping

[dry plank]

It was a boss near stairs don’t remember name of it

[lilac stag]

Fury and havoc too

Rip rogue. It’s joever

[jaunty heath]

Havoc is bugged

[swift tinsel]

dang time to delete and reroll

[jaunty heath]

I need to play that spec next season so

Im keeping up with it

[vestal escarp]

red arming became blue armin

green armin? nowhere to be seen

[jaunty heath]

Ye I was playing sub all season

[dry plank]

In sacred flame dung

[jaunty heath]

So I said fuck it why red

[umbral socket]

Which bug?

[swift tinsel]

oh the 2 target cleave fight or last boss

[jaunty heath]

Wq doing way too much damage

[lilac stag]

The 400% dps increase bug

[vestal escarp]

dh bugs jokes in the rog discord

[swift tinsel]

tbf all bosses are somewhere near stairs lol

[dry plank]

2 target

[umbral socket]

Wasnt one of the bugs intended in latest patch notes or smth?

[swift tinsel]

ah, sub sucks at 2 target cleave lol

[umbral socket]

Idk i am not havoc playet

[jaunty heath]

The souls yes

The damage no

[lilac stag]

the souls part yes. the dmg amp to hell no

[vestal escarp]

? not anymore

[sullen hare]

WTF? Trickster loves 2 target

[vestal escarp]

any hero talents

[umbral socket]

I see, so they are not supposed to scale that shit on target count

[tepid trellis]

zeross needs to step the fuck up

[random comet]

nah stay there, play for buffs

[dry plank]

Baron

Suck at single target

[vestal escarp]

idk bro was at phone or something

also this looks like a sub key overall if all positive bugs are gone

[twilit phoenix]

Hunter pets go brrrrrrrr

[shrewd grail]

@random hare Ayo , what is this dps sir

[swift tinsel]

also rerolls sub against a mage onetrick, good luck in general

[shrewd grail]

I thought you were a gamer

[dry plank]

Guys we are fine. Just few screenshot where zeros not top1 relax

[twilit phoenix]

Ya azsuna is the literal fire mage god

[shrewd grail]

Where is jpc

[swift tinsel]

check runescape

[shrewd grail]

Maybe he can save sub

[swift tinsel]

supposedly he's coming back for s2

stream when

[twilit phoenix]

He’s at a gooning addiction retreat

#roadtorecovery

[swift tinsel]

he still at MIT

[twilit phoenix]

Yeah he’s finishing his thesis on fluid particle cryptography

[swift tinsel]

wicked

[shrewd grail]

Any dh news since last buff ?

[swift tinsel]

try fel hammer

[lilac stag]

jpc is a German music-retailer based in Georgsmarienhütte near Osnabrück. The name stands for jazz-pop-classic.

[shrewd grail]

Ty bro

[dry plank]

Did not make a screen but zeros was below hunter which was dead entire p2 on last boss

That’s weird but he is doing prot pala damgur

[twilit phoenix]

would be funny if hunter pets stayed alive if hunter dies

[shrewd grail]

Bring him here

[twilit phoenix]

and still did more ST than rogue

[alpine wraith]

please stop blaming fellow rogues

[dry plank]

We are not blaming. It’s just weird. Zeros good rogue

Which means we are fuked or?

[tulip gorge]

sub is probably bugged as hell

[shrewd grail]

Zeros used to put casualaddict in no pants position

Now protpal take zeros pants

[dry plank]

Overall does not matter they were dying a lot on this 13

[shrewd grail]

Fighting tank damage in key is wild

[dry plank]

On bosses yes

[shrewd grail]

Also in aoe

[swift tinsel]

didn't they just buff tank dam by like 20% for all of them

[shrewd grail]

I've heard outlaw also suxx 11.1 is that true or ?

[dry plank]

It coz of deaths

[upper narwhal]

3 more weeks of tuning before raid stressing about PTR balance is still not worth it imo

[shrewd grail]

Yeah blizzard Always release a really good tuning patch before rwf

They never fail this mission

[lilac stag]

especially when the spec has nearly zero data during testing.

[shrewd grail]

0 data for a reason i guess kekw

[tulip gorge]

if they bothered to make the spec testable they would get data, but oh well

[dry plank]

They don’t test internally and rely on players of course

And they surely care a lot about perfect balancing

[random hare]

?

u know that i have r1 logs on sub right

i play all specs

[random hare]

they fixed tier set

[vale pine]

[random hare]

no longer 10 stacks

died in cds 2 times that key tho it was a messy run the dungeon is hard

also mage is the best spec in the game atm on ptr

100% meta in high keys

[tepid trellis]

skill diff

unlucko

[thin lion]

actually?

[random hare]

yea its very bad in keys rn

[hazy breach]

Yesnt

[random hare]

u barely have uptime

[hazy breach]

They made it not perma 10 stacks

But its still bugged as hell

[shrewd grail]

St looks shit ?

[random hare]

well

the dung had 2 target fight

im not playing decent st talents

so it can do good st i think

its just mage and bm are too op atm

[vale pine]

they fixed the bug that made it do a lot of damage

[tepid trellis]

having 66% chance of your sectech not getting any benefit from tier

[vale pine]

^^

[tepid trellis]

does indeed make your dmg kinda not great

[hazy breach]

That was the case before as well

When it was perma 10 stacks

[tepid trellis]

yeh and not that you have lost the BP helping your overall

it just shows its current state

[random hare]

also

60% shadow dmg

from 4 set

was perma kinda

in dance

[tepid trellis]

well if you have 10 stacks yes

[random hare]

ye we always had 10 stacks

vigor+tea made raw bp dmg good

because we just spammed dance here and there

probably could've played trickster instead on that key but it is what it is

[hazy breach]

Its gonna be fine once they they make the tier actually work

[random hare]

for raid ye

but m+ sin is rly powerful

prob stronger than warrior even

in higher keys tho

[lilac stag]

Something changed with it. Didn’t seem to be munching as many stacks with coup

[random hare]

well its working correctly i think with the stacks

not sure tho but i think it does function as it says

[lilac stag]

Had to leave for teaching so didn’t go crazy

[random hare]

its just the design is verybad

[shrewd grail]

The 4p is bugged?

[hazy breach]

Unless it was fixed today the tier is still bugged yes

[lilac stag]

There was a patch 60 minutes ago

[shrewd grail]

Is there new bugg ?

Oh ok

[random hare]

the 60 min patch definitely didnt involve tier set fixes i think

the tier set fixes were yesterday

it might be a firemage+destro aug season

i swear that spec does more than anything rn

destro too op

[lilac stag]

Hunter posted this. 13 priory.

[random hare]

fun times when outlaw did 10m overall in priory

[vestal escarp]

?

[random hare]

30m dps burst on 5 targets

the buff made us do insane dps

double the dps basically

[swift tinsel]

Sectech is still bugged damage-wise, but SF reset is feeling less impactful/fixed but need to look into it more

as of patch this afternoon

[thin lion]

is assa also as bugged as sub atm?

[alpine wraith]

it is undertuned too

double down

[thin lion]

so the only rogue which is working as intended is oulaw?

outlaw*

[vale pine]

assa 4 set needs numbers

[random hare]

they are both equally as bad i'd say

sin's 4 set is completely useless tho

so u just play 2 set + 2 set

[lapis hatch]

what should uptime be in aoe for nimble flurry

[vestal escarp]

you start your dances with sectech so it's pretty much all you need

whatever it is

[thin lion]

Until 4 targets u should try to remain flawless Form (the buff which enables nimble flurry) as much AS possible because its spreads Ur eviscerate but its mostly active Like Said because of sectech

[tepid trellis]

coup is very much still fucked

shit drops all the time

[swift tinsel]

Really? I’ll have to hop on again after work bc it was like one in three coups was resetting instead of 80-90%

[tepid trellis]

9 out of the 15 coups i did over the last 10min

dropping winning streak

[swift tinsel]

Yeesh

[tepid trellis]

very nice indeed

thats like 66% drop rate or smth

[swift tinsel]

If it was 6 hits you’d expect closer to 90%

[tepid trellis]

which kinda adds up

thats not entirely how it works

[tepid trellis]

so it adds up

sorta

[swift tinsel]

Where’s that number come from?

[hazy breach]

1 - 0.85^6

[tepid trellis]

just from a probablity calculator

[swift tinsel]

Ah makes sense

[tepid trellis]

they should just put an icd on the drop of the stacks

set that shit to like 2sec

0 headaches at that point

[shrewd grail]

Sorry guyz what is coups?

[tepid trellis]

fuck if we dont get a 15% chance on Shadowcraft refund finisher

but atleast there isnt any headaches

[tepid trellis]

coup de grace

[shrewd grail]

So the drop chance is 9/15 coup so 66% is that what you mean?