they know they just don't aknowledge it publicly so we dont cry more about bugs
#subtlety
vestal relic
random hare
@tepid trellis what part isn't being amped by shadow dmg on our 2 set ?
swift tinsel
shadowed finishers
vestal relic
and this, i don't understand who work on rogue, feels like its a new guy everytime who has never played the spec how can you not think that what we will do
swift tinsel
iirc its a diff team that does tier sets
tepid trellis
it aint no singular guy its just a team of people working on every class, jumping from things to the next thing
and yes
its a seperate team that does tiersets
vestal relic
its a seperate team that does tiersets
that explains it probably no one in that team know how sub function
random hare
@tepid trellis isn't this supposed to be doing less?
doesn't look like 30% is it?
or why is that number like almost 40%
or 50%
fathom adder
is the iv guide up to date that the st and aoe opener as trickster m+ spec is the same?
pliant topaz
and this, i don't understand who work on rogue, feels like its a new guy everyt...
Because 1) the tier designers are usually different than class designers 2) jts a tuning problem not a design problem. They can just do a lil bit of tuning to make you not do it
hardy snow
do what?
swift tinsel
rupture/snd between dances instead of normal finishers
hardy snow
not doing those that many anyway
hazy breach
or 50%
Ye thats because it is
Its 30% of pre-mitigation damage, so its like 43%, but then it also gets increased by all the shadow damage increases
vestal relic
Because 1) the tier designers are usually different than class designers 2) jts ...
yeah i got that, id argue it more a design problem when you either destroy the number or add new spell to the mechanics, tuning should be adjusting number only but maybe i'm wrong
swift tinsel
not necessarily, if the bonus %'s are too high, the risk of losing them is high
if they're not as high, you're less inclined to play around them
hardy snow
it is when you add new mechanics to numbers and the adding didn't work
random hare
Its 30% of pre-mitigation damage, so its like 43%, but then it also gets increas...
so if 2pc increased it's shadow dmg the number would shift even further?
higher
hazy breach
No
hardy snow
not necessarily, if the bonus %'s are too high, the risk of losing them is high
i believe these two are not related. risky or not is not determined by the bonus % but the % chance of dropping, no?
tepid trellis
both
swift tinsel
i believe these two are not related. risky or not is not determined by the bonus...
both
hazy breach
Lets assume no talents for the example:
Evis does 100 damage, gets reduced to 77 by armor.
Shadowed finishers will do 30% of 100, so it will do 30
Now with 2p fully stacked the phys part will do 77 * 1.3 = 100 damage
But shadowed finishers doesnt benefit anything from 2p so it will still do 30
hardy snow
anyway, never play in a way that get you around a mechanic so something should happen but never happen, since usually bliz just force it happen.
hazy breach
@random hare
hazy breach
The shadowed finisher part is not actually directly related to the phys part
Its a seperate spell that does 30% of eviscerates base damage
random hare
ye i see
tepid trellis
Its a seperate spell that does 30% of eviscerates base damage
they should just redesign it
hazy breach
Or remove it, but yes
hardy snow
why shadow?
tepid trellis
fits the theme
hazy breach
Because thats the theme of the spec
hardy snow
it is the theme, with FW, you do extra shadow damage, not directly shadow damage.
delicate gulch
do we know anyghing about next season, why aren't we getting any changes / buffs?
tepid trellis
it is the theme, with FW, you do extra shadow damage, not directly shadow damage...
fwiw FW should get removed as well
hazy breach
FW serves no purpose when its always up
tepid trellis
FW serves no purpose when its always up
was more interesting when it was like 40% uptime
hazy breach
Either remove it or drastically lower the uptime
Having it be 98% uptime just makes it incredibly annoying those 2% when its not up
random hare
ngl sub is crazy fun once u have a good route+tank that actually cares about ur cd
hazy breach
The only time its not always up is on aoe as trickster, but then you'd just storm with rotten to make sure its up.
tepid trellis
from brood this week
hazy breach
But that interrupts the flow of coup stacks
random hare
till we depleted 
fathom adder
do you manage to fit in 2 SD inbetween the 2 sc/sb/flag window or do you only use one and use one symbol + sectec outside of dance?
tepid trellis
as trickster yes, as DS not always
hazy breach
ngl sub is crazy fun once u have a good route+tank that actually cares about ur ...
Not sure how you outlaws will like it once you need to stop using bp/evis and just afk/rupture to preserve your stacks 
random hare
i think tea is rly bad in good routes
no use of the energy if the tank does good pulls
hardy snow
Having it be 98% uptime just makes it incredibly annoying those 2% when its not ...
40% up or 98%, actually still just numbers. but yea, it changes your opinion of shd finishers. and whining about 2% downtime is silly.
hazy breach
40% up or 98%, actually still just numbers. but yea, it changes your opinion of ...
Whats the point of having an effect if it doesnt matter
All it does is make 100% of our new stuff be bugged
hardy snow
it enpowers you in a way like an aura and they'd like keep aura low, besides the shd finishers value
you can remove a lot of things and get extra aura
SnD?
Alacrity?
tepid trellis
they basically did remove SnD
hazy breach
It makes everything buggy and lowers satisfaction because all my big hits are now split into smaller hits
strange sail
does anybody have a WA that tracks the icd of unseen blade?
hardy snow
Acrobatic?
hazy breach
Ye they removed SnD for the exact reason were talking about
hazy breach
does anybody have a WA that tracks the icd of unseen blade?
Literally impossible to make one
No way to track it
swift tinsel
LE has an estimator
hardy snow
they did removed what SnD? or the buff showing on my screen is not SnD?
swift tinsel
basically just a timer that counts down from 20 from your last UB hit
hazy breach
They removed us casting SnD
hardy snow
do you cast FW?
hazy breach
Because it was up all the time, and the 2% of the time it wasnt up
strange sail
ah sadge
hazy breach
It was annoying to cast
hardy snow
in this sense it is removed already
hazy breach
do you cast FW?
Yes
tepid trellis
we do indeed do stuff to force it up
swift tinsel
its not removed bc it interacts with our kit in weird ways
hazy breach
On aoe with storm as trickster we do
hardy snow
On aoe with storm as trickster we do
and the ability is FW? and you gain nothing but FW? how about the cps?
hazy breach
You sacrifice the rotation by not striking
You dont get coup stacks
You do less damage
All you get is fw
Just like you skipped an eviscerate to cast snd
hardy snow
what do you mean by not get coup stacks?
tepid trellis
storm doesent generate them
hardy snow
and you know you're going to proc and you have to not cast it due to some FW and because you cannot 100% crit even there is a talent for that?
hazy breach
Yes you know youre going to proc unseen blade
swift tinsel
except you usually don't know when you get a proc
hazy breach
Because its always after sectech
hazy breach
And you have 100% crit since rotten is up
hardy snow
and you have your FW from crit and you still need to storm for FW?
hazy breach
?
tepid trellis
to apply to everything yes?
hardy snow
im confused about your argument
hazy breach
Shadowstrike doesnt apply FW
on aoe
You have to cast storm to apply fw, even though it sucks and feels bad
Because you'd much rather press strike
Thats my argument
hardy snow
would that strike be like 100% proc coup stacks?
hazy breach
Yes?
hardy snow
then you do it two gcd later?
hazy breach
guys does soothing darkness work with shadowdance
No
hazy breach
then you do it two gcd later?
Ye and you end up with coup outside dance
hazy breach
Yes
hardy snow
then rot before dance and apply fw before your stirke gcd?
hardy snow
so?
tepid trellis
would you wanna press that before going into your dmg
hazy breach
then rot before dance and apply fw before your stirke gcd?
Ye lemme just afk inbetween my dances with blades and trinket up
And not use my superchargers
Honest question
hazy breach
Have you even played the spec on aoe?
hardy snow
symbol storm and dance finisher, which superchargers you lost?
uneven scarab
tepid trellis
now you consumed both rotten stacks
hardy snow
that's because when you cast storm, you actually have two casts
that's not anyone's problem, if there has to be one, it is the storm's problem
swift tinsel
can't argue with that logic
tepid trellis
they wont fix our bugs so we have to find ways to play aroudn them
hardy snow
and you have Slient for a different flavor
if you need a 100% FW
and you said you want FW, or you keep the two rots and lose some FW
hazy breach
Have you looked at our talent tree
uneven scarab
Silent storm 
lilac stag
htf am I taking silent
hardy snow
i'm sure it is available from some branches
swift tinsel
if you wanna skip all your actual damage sure
uneven scarab
Terrible talent
hardy snow
Now you have your some not close to 100% uptime FW as you wished
swift tinsel
You genuinely talk like you havent specced into sub at all
that's the storm's problem
hardy snow
and you're still complaining
uneven scarab
hardy snow
i thought you thought that was interesting
hazy breach
Im complaing because it feels bad, and there are solutions but they feel bad
Not that there arent solutions
lilac stag
man 11.1 ptr been exciting in here considering zero changes.
uneven scarab
i think you are misunderstanding
hardy snow
yea, 100% boring and remove
not 100%, i hate the solution of getting 100%. feels bad because it is not 100%
uneven scarab
Fw doesnt do anything
tepid trellis
Im complaing because it feels bad, and there are solutions but they feel bad
fuck you for wanting the class to feel better to play
uneven scarab
Its just there
hazy breach
And my suggestion is to make it not feel bad, instead of asking for a slightly better solution that still feels bad
tepid trellis
i love how this whole thing started cuz Shadowed finishers sucks donkey cock
lilac stag
If assa or outlaw can’t feel good to play why should sub.
hardy snow
when you cast dance all your enemies in combat gain FW. degen and perfect
tepid trellis
and never stops being bugged whenever they do any new stuff
uneven scarab
🍝
lilac stag
hazy breach
when you cast dance all your enemies in combat gain FW. degen and perfect
Again, thats just a shitty solution that still feels bad the few times its not up
lilac stag
have you tried just having it up?
hardy snow
yea, i got it, you always find a way feeling bad, dont you?
lilac stag
Asking for a friend.
hazy breach
Either make it low uptime
Or remove it
Having it be 95% or 97% or 99% doesnt matter much
uneven scarab
Id much rather have low uptime high impact
hardy snow
it is low uptime as you wished in trickster aoe and you dont like it
hazy breach
yea, i got it, you always find a way feeling bad, dont you?
????
I want the spec to feel good to play
hazy breach
it is low uptime as you wished in trickster aoe and you dont like it
Its not low uptime
hazy breach
Alright im done
hardy snow
then what it is in aoe the uptime?
uneven scarab
just take whatever shit gameplay you get served.
hazy breach
Cant tell if its a language barrier or brain barrier
vale pine
i love how this whole thing started cuz Shadowed finishers sucks donkey cock
i still think they would have been better off keeping the spec with the non split design
lilac stag
🧠
timid pulsar
tepid trellis
i still think they would have been better off keeping the spec with the non spli...
100%
vale pine
the change made no sense to begin with outside of flavor
hardy snow
Cant tell if its a language barrier or brain barrier
this is like talking to zac about 5 buffs. 25% too low, either make it 40% or never happen.
timid pulsar
Bring back death from above
hardy snow
take the risks and make your decisions.
uneven scarab
hazy breach
Seems to be the latter
lilac stag
I have the perfect solution. dog picts.
swift tinsel
I can only offer cats
uneven scarab
I can bring both
lilac stag
I can only offer cats
Both?
hardy snow
it is very simple, if solutions not perfect and you cannot have them all, then directly go to the station of "remove it"?
tepid trellis
not allowed to want decent changes for your spec that alleviates pain points
swift tinsel
hardy snow
hey, i said about dance applying FW and he still not happy about some downtime idk when
hardy snow
since he's complaining he cannot strike due to FW
timid pulsar
Premium ragebaits
spark tusk
lilac stag
Premium ragebaits
5 year old level trolling
hardy snow
i say how about dance applying FW so he wont worry about that. and he said still felt bad when not upt
uneven scarab
I have the perfect solution. dog picts.
slate lantern
hazy breach
Fairly sure its genuine and not trolling
tepid trellis
i say how about dance applying FW so he wont worry about that. and he said still...
cuz you clearly did not understand what the pain point of it was
swift tinsel
holy majestic pupper pose
uneven scarab
Hes very photogenic
hardy snow
cuz you clearly did not understand what the pain point of it was
then could you please explain the pain point?
swift tinsel
Steve and Edith, my biological children
lilac stag
Small litter.
swift tinsel
Only the strong survive
lilac stag
just like FW
swift tinsel
lmfao
dense mountain
yo random gameplay question but whats the best way to swap to an add then back to the boss quickly in raid. I find myself missing globals trying to click to target boss sometimes. (thinking like p3 queen small spiders)
vale pine
yo random gameplay question but whats the best way to swap to an add then back t...
shadowstep
tepid trellis
there is 0 point in having a buff/debuff with 95-99% uptime all it does is serve as an annoyance when it isnt up, so what we would like, is to one either make it impactful like it was back in the day or just remove it, if its at 100% uptime its just a cosmetic debuff and could just as well not be there. Right now its ONLY purpose is to make you able to proc shadowed finishers, which is a mess in and of itself cuz everytime they touch anything it breaks, which was how all of this started with wanting to remove shadowed finisher relying on FW and not being split dmg but just being a % increase, cuz it removes ANNOYANCES, cuz people dont like to too much friction it becomes annoying
hazy breach
To add to that: a buff effect like alacrity, while rather pointless, does not really have much friction associated with it
So i dont really care about it being there or not
vale pine
having FW uptime depend on your crits of storm is one way to take away control over uptime
wonders me
subtlety aoe was never op, why did they do it?
tepid trellis
having FW uptime depend on your crits of storm is one way to take away control o...
now yes it would, if it actually had lower uptime
but it doesent
dense mountain
shadowstep
sorry i was more asking about getting the boss as my target again. I currently am left clicking on the adds, then left clicking on the boss, and i feel like im missing some globals here and there. Just wondering if people have a more efficient way of swapping around targets.
hardy snow
there is 0 point in having a buff/debuff with 95-99% uptime all it does is serve...
isn't that allowing FW applied during dance so it becomes a less friction?
and it also increase physical damage not soley for shd finishers
it's annoying because you notice that, not like a huge unlucky hit to your damage performance since it is very rarely happened.
elevate your angle, see statistics and calm your emotion, please.
swift tinsel
sorry i was more asking about getting the boss as my target again. I currently a...
you can use a focus shadowstep macro and focus the boss so you eliminate some of that
vale pine
sorry i was more asking about getting the boss as my target again. I currently a...
you can use a focus target macro
set focus to boss
then step add
vale pine
and use the step focus target macro to get back
if its later in the fight
can also vanish-strike
uptime is important
to using vanish-strike for uptime is a very good use case
people sleep on it a bit
swift tinsel
vanish-strike is really underutilized
hardy snow
if 2% downtime actually hits the spec so much, then it could be a huge problem for the spec.
it isn't and all the complaint is about the second you noticed that oh it's not up.
dont get devoured by that.
tepid trellis
it is not about the actual dmg loss
uneven scarab
Its not even the 2% downtime they are upset about lol
dense mountain
ohhh like macro focus shadowstep and target focus together?
tepid trellis
its about it being annoying
uneven scarab
^^
hazy breach
We are not devoured by it
swift tinsel
ohhh like macro focus shadowstep and target focus together?
its very helpful to have a separate macro that sets your focus via mouseover
hardy snow
yes, that's why i said use your logic calm your emotion and not so easily get annoyed by that small loss
hazy breach
Its not a huge deal
tepid trellis
so whats the issue of wanting change that makes your spec feel better?
swift tinsel
then you can swap your focus around quickly and easily
hazy breach
Im just curious why you dont want it to feel better
swift tinsel
then have an @focus macro for your step
hazy breach
Like whats the argument to keep it feeling annoying
uneven scarab
No more wanting your spec to feel smooth guys
swift tinsel
or modifier
uneven scarab
not allowed
swift tinsel
hey thats why we play sub
uneven scarab
hey thats why we play sub
Got me there
hardy snow
if tomorrow, we get perma FW on all enemies in combat. I wont feel a thing. that kind of attention, I'd like to see them put it somewhere else in the spec.
more impactful things that need fixed
uneven scarab
idk i think a rework to fw would be exactly the step in the right direction this spec needs
hardy snow
for example, backstab no longer needs to be positioned at back for FW
tepid trellis
for example, backstab no longer needs to be positioned at back for FW
remove FW
fixed
np
swift tinsel
dang gottem
then delete shadowed finishers
or make it make our spells just do shadow dmg
hardy snow
or during tornado shcraft wont feed back cp
uneven scarab
Im pretty sure everyone in here just wants fw to feel like a part of our kit rather than an annoyance you play around
hardy snow
like preme
swift tinsel
truly based
uneven scarab
that spell blows
hardy snow
or make storm no longer consume two rot stacks
lilac stag
for example, backstab no longer needs to be positioned at back for FW
Just take a talent for that.
swift tinsel
it rhymes with "fightblade"
lilac stag
you know what would be cool
We had a finished talent tree?
uneven scarab
We had a finished talent tree?
vale pine
there is no perfect in games
you will always have some friction and bad things reguardless of spec
e.g. assassiantion is rly good at everything
yet people still complain that other specs or classes do one specific thing better
and there are even with assassiantion some edges in gameplay
that can lead to not-so-great gameplay
lilac stag
The problem is the FW friction doesn’t exist, except for the coders / developers.
vale pine
it adds complexity
tepid trellis
never settle, always strive for things to be better
vale pine
complexity does not mean it plays difficult, just to get people not confused
+1 stealthi
also
always try to make things fun for the user
lilac stag
Or buff BP another 30%
opaque valve
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vestal relic
complexity does not mean it plays difficult, just to get people not confused
yes pliz i'm a poe 1 player sure its complex but gameplay wise i can press one button and beat everything in the game
vestal relic
yeah if you love complex game
lilac stag
BM Hunter
vale pine
this will be a hot take, but i think the skill tree looks worse than it actually is, you typically go for the capstones and the path to them barely matters
but it looks very intimidating
vestal relic
not a hot take imo its way more impressive than it really is but at the same time how do you fix that ?
lilac stag
Fuu with the classic fiuu everything is fine take. 
solemn creek
Look at poe 2 skill tree
keen dome
not a hot take imo its way more impressive than it really is but at the same tim...
FF 10 sphere grid
vale pine
you can reduce the trees by a lot and still offer a lot of choice
solemn creek
Its even more meaningless then in poe1
vestal relic
you can reduce the trees by a lot and still offer a lot of choice
sure but having that much choice make almost everybuild possible there is so much niche build everywhere i dont see how reducing it fix the sentiment of a new player while keeping so much niche choice for more advance player
uneven scarab
Ofc
vale pine
so you need to spend a lot of points on "no impact" nodes
uneven scarab
in a game like that though those kinda nodes don’t necessarily feel bad to take though
compared to wow
vale pine
and having so many of them, means there is soo much more nodes
vestal relic
that do not much
no much early when you put in jewels it kind of changes a lot tho
vale pine
increasing the oevrall complexity for no reason
poe probably just has a diffrent target audience
vestal relic
for sure
uneven scarab
i think a big thing though, even if those nodes seem small
vestal relic
idk i love it on some aspect and hate it in other
uneven scarab
You are only picking stuff in the tree that you WANT on your chracter
vestal relic
small node i love it allows way more flexibility especially mid - late game
swift tinsel
lol @ boots name
keen dome
Ahaha, that rules
vale pine
lol @ boots name
one thing thats funny is
let me find it
there is a rly cool transmog
swift tinsel
oh yeah i forgot about the jet engines lol
vale pine
diffrent view, less pixelated
azure mauve
you can reduce the trees by a lot and still offer a lot of choice
im pretty sure that was blizz's logic back in cata/mop
lets just remove all the talents that everyone alwasy takes and just keep the actual choices
vale pine
hot take
i think the DF tree rework added more problems than it solved
because now the yneeded to add more and more things to everything
and it changed raid design
azure mauve
idk what it is but i think players just like that feedback of putting in a talent every level
swift tinsel
I think that's a reasonable take honestly
vale pine
because healers are too good, survivability is too good
the winner of the lottery in DF can do everything at once
blizz essentially limits their own design space because they gave people soo much to deal with mechanics
azure mauve
i think the DF tree rework added more problems than it solved
agreed, but i honestly think if blizz were to poll the entire playerbase, overwhemingly players like having talent trees
vale pine
legion was the most popular xpac in recent time
and it had a simplified talent system
how comes
uneven scarab
The content was good 
vale pine
DF could not replicate the success, not even close
and people and streamers stated it was the best wow has ever been
azure mauve
maybe im wrong obv im just spitballing, that being said artifact weapons were in itself another talent tree
vale pine
think they ended up more as a progression system
so technically not the same ^^
you do content and unlock x/y after investing z amount of time
The talent system now is just
you go to wowhead or your favorite guide website
copy
paste
uneven scarab
Rogue talent trees pre level 80 also 
vale pine
thats the decision making
uneven scarab
are so bad
vale pine
and hero talents are blizz solution to that
a more limited subset of talents
with 2-3 nodes you can switch
azure mauve
"switch"
vale pine
you also see development to a degree
azure mauve
i set it up at the beginning of the expac and havent touched them since
vale pine
changes to make specs play one talent always
e.g. if you look at paladin
healers had 2 talent setups with quite diffrent play style this patch
next patch they nerf one of the setups so heavily that they go down to probably always playing the same
slender lagoon
@olive pike
vale pine
(it was just a example of recent development on a other class which lead to less talent diversity it seems)
pliant topaz
talents imo are fine, they can give both meaningful choice as well as the illusion of choice. and its fine in both cases
but when the tree is too complex, it takes away the choice because the choice is too hard to make, so u kinda follow whats known to be good
vale pine
i mean the amount of nodes also can dicdate the power creep
pliant topaz
this tree design is weird af though. like it doesnt make sense to punish players for making chocies. instead of choice being u have something good vs another good thing
its like you have to take something horrific, to take something u want, and still give up the other good thing u want
thats just lazy / bad design
vale pine
def. a interesting discussion
vestal relic
yes really insterresting i don't think complexity is the problem i think its mostly a question of pathing/choice offered
vestal relic
its like you have to take something horrific, to take something u want, and stil...
this is definitely what you want to avoid
haughty mural
ye its exactly our top left side
vestal relic
yeah but i feel many spec have problem like that
lilac stag
Complexity is fine if there’s thoughtfulness in the pathing and talent design. You can’t convince me they give a shit when a choice node for sub gives haste. Just a big fuck off.
Dumping random shit in the tree just to fill it.
vestal relic
legit i believe its a bureaucratic problem big company fixing goals ect just translate to useless stuff everywhere
in this case absolutely horrific talent being put in there for the sake of it
lilac stag
Most of our talents are the equivalent of busy work
Why does no one play sub? Idk ion
random mason
Complexity is fine if there’s thoughtfulness in the pathing and talent design. Y...
I mean we had the x rows of 3 choices that most of the time only amounted to copy the picks from the guide. There isn't really much wiggle room in balancing 39 specs when you also want to have meaningful decisions on every spec and class tree
Meaningful decisions are 'pick different nodes but it's still competitive'
lilac stag
I mean we had the x rows of 3 choices that most of the time only amounted to cop...
That’s bull shit
vestal relic
yeah but at the same time why do u need this many talent with this many choice, it just feels artificially put in there just to check the number asked by the boss
it would be fine with some spec having less choice than other
lilac stag
They can 100 % design 39 spec. They choose to not with their budget and cycles
Now go look up how much money they made off a AH mount.
vestal relic
but no you need this many choice so you have this node where they just put it in to meet the mark
random mason
They can 100 % design 39 spec. They choose to not with their budget and cycles
I didn't say they can't design 39 specs. I said they can't design multiple viable talent setups for each of the 39 specs
lilac stag
They can
uneven scarab
Assa has literally 10 different talent setups alone
random mason
Assa has literally 10 different talent setups alone <:OMEGAKEKW:8290511063613440...
Assa is 39 specs now?
lilac stag
It’s proof they can
uneven scarab
?
lilac stag
lol
vestal relic
for sure they can it just takes time and money
lilac stag
Fucking blizzard apologist wasn’t on my bingo card today. Can’t in this case is self imposed by their choice to not fund the design aspec with time or resources.
uneven scarab
Sub DID have two talent builds
when it was dust vs DB
now we have like everything in one
No reason to change anything lol
haughty mural
okay cool clap
lilac stag
Poor dust got ran out of town.
swift tinsel
I should call it
lilac stag
Base spec cds still fubar
swift tinsel
Triple sectech opener
truly satisfying gameplay when you did it right
uneven scarab
solemn creek
sub tier piece is looking more promising then the -2.5% from assa right
uneven scarab
I mean you know the assa one isnt going to go live like that
dry plank
sub tier piece is looking more promising then the -2.5% from assa right
Poor assas
solemn creek
I mean you know the assa one isnt going to go live like that
i kept telling me that since i saw it revealed
and when i saw the enh was getting reworked.. copium
but... from week to week.. the copium is getting depleted
random hare
guys
we kinda spread the part where 2pc shadow dmg isn't amping our 2 set so
take an advantage of it the whole ptr community of 5 players know that it isn't working
!
fixes inc trust
wait deathstalker shadow dmg amps fix too 
dry plank
Copium
keen igloo
s1 over, just having fun, and man is this more fun than the copy/paste builds I was playing
keen igloo
it's live, it doesn't work anyways, shadowcraft
uneven scarab
wdym it doesnt work
keen igloo
it works incorrectly
swift tinsel
how so?
uneven scarab
swift tinsel
swift tinsel
rep. shadows
so untalent rs, fixed
hazy breach
Thats the deathstalker build except with tea ye
hazy breach
s1 over, just having fun, and man is this more fun than the copy/paste builds I ...
and veiltouched instead of premed ig
uneven scarab
https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/316923898501529600/1338890267981...
It even has warning signs
He went full disgusting
keen igloo
and veiltouched instead of premed ig
someone gets me 
swift tinsel
Lol right, thats what had me questioning before
bc I completely forgot warning signs exists
hazy breach
someone gets me <:petkoHappy:837398433064026212>
I mean its not good, but ye
Dropping shadowcraft griefs singletarget but its fine for aoe
tepid trellis
not seing shadowcraft talented makes me cry
uneven scarab
not seing shadowcraft talented makes me cry
Yes
sick jackal
https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/316923898501529600/1338890267981...
this is like the thing we shouldnt do can we get a pin on this
uneven scarab
Same
keen igloo
Dropping shadowcraft griefs singletarget but its fine for aoe
I'm just gonna swap macabre for it now anyways
☠️
hazy breach
What
tepid trellis
sick jackal
send jesus
uneven scarab
this is like the thing we shouldnt do can we get a pin on this
Should be illegal to talent half of those talents
sick jackal
Should be illegal to talent half of those talents
should be illegal to not talent into mavabre at this point
shit should be more baseline than shadowdance
keen igloo
hazy breach
sick jackal
<:haiimAngry:883338105606799410>
how tf did goremaws now make it to this tree even
hazy breach
You do you bud, but talenting shadowcraft instead of macabre aint it
hazy breach
<:haiimAngry:883338105606799410>
The actual play is to drop inev and deeper daggers for pv+macabre from that pov
swift tinsel
hazy breach
Then youre almost at the deathstalker aoe talent build
slate lantern
Goremaws 🤝 Greenskin Wickers
Uselss talent convention
keen igloo
did I do it right ? 
uneven scarab
Yeah thats perfect 
keen igloo
The actual play is to drop inev and deeper daggers for pv+macabre from that pov
fr Imma try thaton dummy now
lilac stag
wait is this scath's meme build
mine better
swift tinsel
mine better
its gaining popularity
lilac stag
i am here for the johnny come lately and stream viewers
vestal escarp
Lets take the 10% shadow dmg instead of the 30% dmg in dance
worthy pulsar
guys why subtlety not popular in m+?
vale pine
guys why subtlety not popular in m+?
because there are better specs and classes
keen igloo
my 4 min 5t dummy on live is the same with both these builds 
swift tinsel
no its bc we're too good
and if everyone played sub the game would explode
too many nuclear sectechs
worthy pulsar
i get sin is busted for m+ for but not better than outlaw i guess?
swift tinsel
but mainly what fuu said
sub has burst damage, and a metric ton of it in cooldowns
whereas outlaw is a relatively flat damage profile
so sub is quite good at nuking bosses and prio mobs
without trading off of doing no aoe
worthy pulsar
my wrist fkd and thinking about sub as i dont like sin 😦
worthy pulsar
the new tier in .1 seems ok for sub?
swift tinsel
its very good, if it functions as intended which we expect it to when it goes live
it makes our cooldown windows wildly strong, with the tradeoff of our damage outside of cooldowns being even lower than with our current set
and that's a gameplay style that not everyone is a fan of, so something to keep in mind
worthy pulsar
last i played sub was in DF s1, has playstyle changed much since then if u have any idea?
more like it was the only time i played sub
vestal escarp
It changenged quite a lot
hazy breach
i get sin is busted for m+ for but not better than outlaw i guess?
Just more outlaw OTPs. Most of the sub enjoyers swapped to assa
But sub is completely fine
And well, new season with new tier set and new tuning is coming soon anyway
vestal escarp
Rn it's the spec with less drawbacks for m+
vale pine
it is like the textbook way to make everyone play something ^^
make it op, keep it op, give it all the tools in existence
but as eleem mentioned, new season might shake up things
hazy breach
Probably not
vale pine
nope
hexed sluice
Bless
vestal escarp
You're trolling if you change then
vale pine
talents seem fairly similar
hexed sluice
Cause im lazy and enjoy running the exact same talent setup for raid, dungeons and world content.
hazy breach
Check back closer to patch for more exact results 
But ye for that the trickster build is very very solid
hexed sluice
rn i just have ImpSHURStorm/QuickDecisions/ImpShadowTech as my floater point depending on what I need
drifting cloak
Hello - I have a 616 sublety Rogue and been playing since the beginning but took a long break and need to learn the new ways. Could you please tell me the best and greatest Addon's and Macros I should be using? And should I stick with Sub or is Outlaw/Assassination better?
vale pine
all 3 rogue specs are good, assassiantion is atm the most popular because it is slightly better in anything you can think of compared to the other 2 specs
if you want to play rogue and always play the best, you will need to learn all 3
but sub is good, and if you like the spec fantasy and burst style gamepla, might be the right choice for you. Can also just try all 3 specs and stick with whats the most fun.
worthy pulsar
in big packs, how much rupture do you need to spread before going to big cds?
hazy breach
Generally you should send once the pack is gathered
But while mobs are running in you could toss a couple of them out
worthy pulsar
ah okay ty
hazy breach
Yes you'd do more damage if rupture was up already on every mob, but delaying cds and wasting dance cdr is not great
So you typically just send
shrewd grail
Normal heroic and mythic raid same week or i read that bad ?
M0 comes 25 feb or march ??
hazy breach
Yes there is no heroic week this time
willow pawn
swift tinsel
its the same
only diff is if you weren't speccing RS you can bc they fixed the cp delay bug
granite river
Do we optimize only supercharging a certain finisher?
hazy breach
Sectech should always be supercharged yes
granite river
Would you not pandemic refresh symbols in blades window then if next finisher would not be sec tech?
granite river
Sick got it
hazy breach
But you have 2 superchargers
So symbolsing when sectech has 10s left is fine
Since one evis/bp will bring that down to 0
granite river
Oh shit I did not realize that tbh
lilac stag
!guide
granite river
Thanks 
glossy turtle
How is sub for m+ looking in s2?
hazy breach
Good
glossy turtle
I dont know much abt sub to tell. but reading the tierset seemed dope
hazy breach
Tierset is still a buggy on ptr so sub is looking better than it actually is if you see ptr keys
But sub should still be good, the tier set is very strong
hazy breach
The stack never fall of
glossy turtle
well -.-
doesnt that kinda make it very hard to tell it performs? other then just an idea?
hazy breach
Yes
glossy turtle
are any of the rogues strong for the next season? assuming you cant really make a call on sub, for sure
im ´not that excited for outlaw, dont know abt assa
hazy breach
doesnt that kinda make it very hard to tell it performs? other then just an idea...
But sub is currently on live pretty good, so some bugfixes (like those mentioned in the pin) and a strong tierset makes it pretty clear that its atleast going to be good next tier
But on ST especially i think its looking way better than good
glossy turtle
I could be up for it for sure. is it trickster or Deathstalker ( plz be trickster)?
hazy breach
If you have 10 stacks going into your burst the numbers are very silly
No sims yet, so dont know for sure
alpine wraith
likely deathstalker but who knows
maybe they do a hail mary trickster buff or some thing
remember they did buff DS a lot on s1
hazy breach
My guess is trickster on ST and DS on aoe
glossy turtle
havent played deathstalker yet, I really love trickster
hazy breach
but we'll see
swift tinsel
boos and hisses at the cursed ds aoe
swift tinsel
that's ptr baby
dense mountain
what conditions am i looking for before i go into my non SB dance windows? like im not sure what im looking to line up before doing the mini cds.
hazy breach
It doesnt matter that much. The most important is to make sure you can get all the globals and theres no mechanic forcing you off the boss
tepid aurora
heya! does any1 know or has the weakaura for combopoints on Targetframe?
hazy breach
But coup, darkest night or cold blood are good to have inside your dance
dense mountain
should i not dance unless i have sectec ready as first or 2nd finisher?
hazy breach
You need to have sectech inside the dance, it doesnt particularly matter if its the first or second
As long as it gets supercharged
dense mountain
okay i bet thats the thing i was missing the most was not having sectec as 1st or 2nd finisher, thanks
hazy breach
But the priority is to make sure youll be able to use 2 dances during cds
Its better to miss out on a dance inbetween cds than a dance during cds (aka flag+blades)
You generally need 1 charge and atleast 40 seconds left on your second charge of dance when you flag to make sure you can use two
dense mountain
oh 40 seconds is more than i expected thats good info. ty king 👑
open vortex
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
tepid aurora
any wa for this combo points? I've been researching my ass. BetterBlizz removes the basic combopoint bar, and the BetterBlizz one is to small :C
slate lantern
any wa for this combo points? I've been researching my ass. BetterBlizz removes ...
for any combo points?
!wa
slate lantern
grab the combo points from any of the packs if you just want that
tepid aurora
none of them are what im searching for 😦 they are all Pve mid covering stuff, I want it on target frame as additional to under the energy bar
swift tinsel
none of them are what im searching for 😦 they are all Pve mid covering stuff, I...
something like this? https://wago.io/bEJquroYs
swift tinsel
happy to help!
swift tinsel
lmao they can be tricky to find when they're kinda specific like that
esp bc there's a million cp weakauras
tepid aurora
for sure man, Idk this is what's been working for me, no issues then it got removed earlier today, like just vanished
swift tinsel
sus
tepid aurora
indeed man. became unplayable but ur my savior!
iron crane
Should you get the gloomblade ability to replace backstab? Why or why not?
hazy breach
Should you get the gloomblade ability to replace backstab? Why or why not?
Its unfortunately poorly placed in the tree
tawdry latch
is transmitter going to possibly still be good next patch?
tulip trail
the new pin says the tier set is partially fixed. what part is fixed?
lilac stag
!bugs
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue
tulip trail
thanks i forgor about that command
molten citrus
i don't think that has the tier bugs on it
tulip trail
i don't think that has the tier bugs on it
was just checking because of the ps in eleems pin from a week ago. I was procrastinating Ptr, but now that we just got CE, I gotta care.
lilac stag
lilac stag
the new pin says the tier set is partially fixed. what part is fixed?
this has the full list in an easier to read format https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e2w0iHBCVp8K7hdSk1T8RKtUK9lr4FsRqFWd68FCQnk/pubhtml?gid=579089422&single=true
dire jolt
sub has some nutty burst
round latch
dry plank
Did they change smth?
dire jolt
I'm saying it just cause I feel absurd opening on a pack in delves and dungeons.
And that's with me still using veteran daggers lol
jaunty umbra
trickster sub is goated in delves
brisk onyx
glossy turtle
Any annoying on use trinket next season?
wasnt a fan of transmitter, but didnt play with it much.
molten citrus
Any annoying on use trinket next season?
There’s a pretty nice 1.5min yes
alpine wraith
not annoying ones no
tulip gorge
the annoying part is getting it in the first place 
since it drops from raid and everyone will want it
alpine wraith
well eye of kezan is kinda bis if it fully charges but like smolderon trink you can just use another
well not everyone wants a 1.5 mastery on use
dire jolt
Unless its been nerfed house of cards is strictly stronger than skardyns grace
High rolling is just kind of a bonus for it
glossy turtle
I mean wouldnt a 40 ilvl diff just make it better no matter what?
tulip gorge
well not everyone wants a 1.5 mastery on use
is there a 2m trinket that is actually stronger than house of cards though?
alpine wraith
yea idk where skardyn came from
glossy turtle
Idk what max ilvl is -.-
alpine wraith
you cant get it next season at a decent ilvl
glossy turtle
damn
dire jolt
Nah, people were comparing an equal ilvl skardyns to show that the RNG isn't a big deal
molten citrus
But not one, where i gotta solve a differential equation to get a buff
Oh, naw
glossy turtle
Not the skardyns grind again
alpine wraith
is there a 2m trinket that is actually stronger than house of cards though?
depends the priory one for other people
as it procs other stats apart from mastery
alpine wraith
Nah, people were comparing an equal ilvl skardyns to show that the RNG isn't a b...
the problem of rng is not the power
but that you can do more dmg but you wont
because fuck you this trinket works like tat
same as gambling on our tier set using finishers outside dance
would be more dmg if it didnt reset tier set? yea
would you risk it?
not really
the diff between beginning a pull with 0 stacks or 10 is so huge
viral phoenix
with the sech tech clone shadow blade bug fixed are we gonna be sending shadowblades before sec tech now or business as usual?
alpine wraith
you will still use blades after sec tech likely you have around 0.6 secs for it to be fine
the initial phys hit is whatever
unless you are grandpa lvl of reaction
void hound
just macro shadowblades on sec tec 🧠
tribal blade
was helping lfg getting aotc, what's wrong with this picture
both tanks alive in P3
alpine wraith
get bitten dog
tribal blade
how little do the tanks have to be doing to lose threat there
tribal blade
TY
scenic yarrow
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
tribal blade
i was surprised i managed to get a rank 6 parse
tribal blade
probably helped 1 of our warrs was on the bench this time
haughty mural
kill timer was better ?
tribal blade
oh this is why
1 warr not in and also we had 2 bench players in to get the achieve
so a lot more add damage to go around
plus a lot of the blasters we have didn't seem to be having a good pull
honestly trickster felt better than DS on the fight because you can cycle sectec faster during add sets
so you can send your 2 dances faster
instead of DS where you have to wait on sectec's cd longer
void hound
nice job gamer
well trickster just always feels better
but dont look up how much damage clear the witness does on ovinax lol
void hound
i feel you
at this point i might just play trickster ||kyveza|| to reduce the chance of me punching the drywall
tribal blade
i've just been playing trickster everywhere now
i seriously can't be assed to bother with DS
does casual have the bug here, it seems like he has perma 10 stacks of tier
vestal escarp
Nado on trickster? Dont you miss out on a bunch of ub?
random hare
Nado on trickster is cooked ye
I did above 4m overall with deathstalker workshop key few days back
tidal salmon
if you dont use it you'll watch other ppl burst things down instead of you
random hare
I think u can achieve that with a bunch of builds anyway
tidal salmon
so think again
random hare
Well that’s where u play deathstalker cuh
tidal salmon
i do play nado on both anyways. looks like you guys will also next season lol
tidal salmon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZt4qgXDL5o
cz based on this shi we go brrrrrr
haughty mural
so a lot more add damage to go around
ah i see
haughty mural
honestly trickster felt better than DS on the fight because you can cycle sectec...
YES! thats what i thought
tribal blade
YES! thats what i thought
it really does feel a lot better
gritty gorge
Hi, i am fairly new to rogue and kinda wanne play it for next season. What is the easiest Rogue spec to get kinda good at? I played several tanks / melees at around 3-3.1k io. I only care about M+
And just to add: I like the style of Sub and Sin more then outlaw
tribal blade
yeah you're gonna be crying in huge pulls as pirate
random hare
Sub you won’t do too well in a pug I think
tribal blade
sin is also kinda shit with pug tanks
who decide to chain mid way through a pull
or take too long to gather
tribal blade
haha yeah
random hare
gritty gorge
Okay, thanks for the first replies 🙂 What is the problem about pug tanks with sub? And to add: will have premade tank next season
And just rotationally: Is Sin more complicated to get really good at or rather sub? Sorry for asking in the sub channel
tidal salmon
Okay, thanks for the first replies 🙂 What is the problem about pug tanks with s...
they'll pull 3 targets whenever you have cds, and do a big pull whenever you don't
tribal blade
And just rotationally: Is Sin more complicated to get really good at or rather s...
sin's aoe rotation has a bit going on, but the ST rotation is quite simple
brisk onyx
does casual have the bug here, it seems like he has perma 10 stacks of tier
It fixed today
tribal blade
sub has quite a lot of sitting on cds and min maxing when to send stuff
tribal blade
It fixed today
nice nice
brisk onyx
at least on me
keen dome
Hi, i am fairly new to rogue and kinda wanne play it for next season. What is th...
They've all got their quirks. Assassination is probably the most simplistic to learn the basics for but has some pretty big complexities to master. Sub is more about learning the rules of why you do stuff and then it'll make sense. I'd suggest trying both for a while and seeing what you enjoy. Both are pretty great, imo.
Once you get comfortable with either you'll be blasting, so it'll probably be more about finding which you personally vibe with the most. Playing both is also a good thing to be able to do
vale pine
does casual have the bug here, it seems like he has perma 10 stacks of tier
during dance sure, outside it shouldn't
brisk onyx
Wut?
vestal escarp
Or just the boring tier set tuning 
brisk onyx
vale pine
It is basically like this
things don't work the way they should
and the tier set seems a bit too good numerical
so both in combination make for lets say 5-10% more damage than intended to put a mark on it
(number might be diffrent but you get the gist)
so yes, subtlety will do good damage
but it is unlikely it stays like this
alpine wraith
only spec that expects nerfs kekw
i do find the burst kinda cool to play around at least
barren wolf
i cant remember the last time sub wasnt above average
vestal escarp
Awakened it was crap
alpine wraith
yea sub been fine for a while until real specs got gear
alpine wraith
but for prog if you were one of the 10 people that played it was good
keen dome
i cant remember the last time sub wasnt above average
In general or in raid specifically?
vestal escarp
You asked you got an answer
keen dome
'Cos if the former I'd simply say the launch of TWW up until 11.0.5 but it was fine in the raid so I guess if it's raid specific then agree
barren wolf
In general or in raid specifically?
in raid
keen dome
Ye, agree then. Always good to push buttons in raid
barren wolf
idk if youre gonna play m+ youre just gonna reroll meta
alpine wraith
i mean funnily enough raid is the content we do the least
but seems important for many
keen dome
idk if youre gonna play m+ youre just gonna reroll meta
Well, if you are title pushing or serious, yeah absolutely.
alpine wraith
even if you dont push title you always do m+ like 2 or 3 times more than raiding
ignoring pvp that is its own game
keen dome
Yeah. it's funny how we raid once or twice a week.
alpine wraith
if you play sub in pvp you are in for a bad time
barren wolf
ehhhhhhhhhh if youre not pushing high m+, m+ is very easy
so like... does your spec matter?
alpine wraith
tell that to the people hardstuck at 7
keen dome
Absolutely not.
alpine wraith
we are peak gamers
keen dome
If you are at my level (+10 weeklies) then it's just "play whatever and play it well"
barren wolf
tell that to the people hardstuck at 7
them changing class wont make it easier
alpine wraith
but they think it is
keen dome
Yeah, haha
alpine wraith
anyway sub wont see higher playrate even when it is good
keen dome
The amount of people I see in weeklies and shit that are just meta chasing but do not understand the fundamentals is immense
alpine wraith
because if they want to fomo in they remember rogue does not give any buff
then go ah
yea nvm
or are already a rogue player
so they play assa
or whatever
vestal escarp
It's more like that sub to be good in keys had to be overtuned, and thats shortlived
alpine wraith
well even when it was overtuned it was not for long
keen dome
I ran into an Assa meta chaser who was getting angry at stuff living too long and he didn't have caustic taken or poisons on.
alpine wraith
i do find some dungeons to be cool for sub
workshop and top are strong
also motherlode
first two bosses are very good
barren wolf
It's more like that sub to be good in keys had to be overtuned, and thats shortl...
but thats the case for every spec
alpine wraith
aug enters chat
keen dome
Haha
alpine wraith
or actually i wonder if mage is ever bad in m+
barren wolf
no its not a spec
alpine wraith
they buffed fire again too
barren wolf
(aug)
alpine wraith
man they cant take a break
keen dome
or actually i wonder if mage is ever bad in m+
I'm sure every season is terrible for them for a specific reason
vestal escarp
but thats the case for every spec
A bit more the case for sub
alpine wraith
they keep buffing frost or fire
barren wolf
A bit more the case for sub
is it?
shrewd flare
and they brick the arcane rework, for fun
barren wolf
if sub did same aoe as assa youd play sub
alpine wraith
well the problem with sub
is that the playerbase is so tiny
even if some people leave that is a big number
like if 100 people stop playing sub
bam that is like 10%
or 20+
meanwhile if 100 ret players stop playing
vestal escarp
if sub did same aoe as assa youd play sub
They're tuned the same in st by logs, and sub cant never make sins aoe because reasons, my point is that at very close tuning sin will always be better in keys
alpine wraith
or the other way aroaund that we might see
if 50 players begin playing sub
but do badly
sub stats will crater
barren wolf
They're tuned the same in st by logs, and sub cant never make sins aoe because r...
well yeah cause assa got reworked recently to get everything a spec needs for m+
vestal escarp
Yeah
barren wolf
but with current assa, if assa isnt a top 5 ST spec it will NEVER be played in m+
cause its st will be so dogshit
you wont be able to kill bosses
legit
alpine wraith
wait until they put DM as a 1 min cd inc
vale pine
only spec that expects nerfs kekw
I am just realistic, the simc implementation currently is not exact but its like 15% dps
vestal escarp
Yup
vale pine
a more correct implementation ups this number to probably 20%
vestal escarp
15 from set
alpine wraith
I am just realistic, the simc implementation currently is not exact but its like...
yea it is a very strong tier if we play around it
vestal escarp
Good but not broken
alpine wraith
they might just change things
vale pine
but thats why i say, there is probably 5% at least on additional damage
i expect to get reduced
alpine wraith
the bugfixes were big at least
tribal blade
or actually i wonder if mage is ever bad in m+
they always have 1 spec that's S-tier without fail
right now it's frost
keen dome
Same as Rogue with Sub. S-tier. Always.
haughty mural
keen dome
S stands for Sub.
haughty mural
ikr buddy
mint swift
Gestalt
Nothing against you
But you are like #1 sub dick rider
Like I get you
It’s a fun spec
But damn
You love sub X)
grave delta
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
keen dome
Gestalt
Nothing against you
But you are like #1 sub dick rider
Like I get you
It...
this is 100% accurate
and a compliment
mint swift
:D
worn cape
Don't worry, you're not the only one 😂
keen dome
Sub 4 life.
haughty mural
nope he isn't
frank musk
Love Sub, or cancel your Sub.
fallow nimbus
You won't find me playing a spec with ass in its name 