subtlety

[leaden prairie]

we trying to do real keys

and look man

if i come in a nw 20

as outlaw

my overall would actually be under the tank

[molten citrus]

yk

you could always play dk

or pally jk

[leaden prairie]

bp at 4 with trickster?

[wind canopy]

5

[vestal escarp]

but stuff has to have fw

[hazy breach]

Ye both trees aoe is a bit jank, couldve used some smoothing out

But oh well

Release candidate after exactly 0 non-bug changes

[vestal escarp]

dh this time

rog next

[hazy breach]

Well get em next time

[vestal escarp]

dh eating so good

aldrachi playable

profile got better

movement less cringe

[keen igloo]

I thought they are still doing tank damage

[tame salmon]

first day of playing sub

is this what i want as DS

[simple garnet]

No switch to trickster and only press eviscerate

[rocky ocean]

When are we getting pink powder

[lilac stag]

but @cold badge told me they were cooking for rogue... wut happened?

[cold badge]

I said nothing

[thorny kestrel]

oh boy casualadd on ptr making sub look God

was it because bugs were fixed

[slate lantern]

was it because God was subtlety all along?

[thorny kestrel]

That's what he said

[tribal blade]

sectec damage looks low, but i haven't used DS in keys in a while

but BP shouldn't be doing that much more

[tame salmon]

ok i see

what about this

first trickster key, what should i look for and do more of

+10 dawn

[wind canopy]

We can't tell what you're doing right or wrong simply by looking at details.

[tame salmon]

yeah but is there any numbers screaming in comparison to others

[wind canopy]

I mean, can't tell without info on pack pulls or other things like that.

[tame salmon]

yeah fair

[small juniper]

u have 0 black powder dmg

[lilac stag]

You can use bugged tier or low ilvl unless both got patched

[tame salmon]

u want to click black powder on trickster?

on dawn?

or is it for coup

[molten citrus]

ya

[molten citrus]

sub was decent already, the bug fixes were tiny. like ~3%

[tame salmon]

aah

for danse

[molten citrus]

some people have their tier still bugged on ptr which is making them do more than normal as well

[thorny kestrel]

i guess he looked a lot more than decent. beating good enh shams and destro locks

[slate lantern]

ross was saying it got patched and i believe him due to his obession with finding the most bugged gear for the past 3 weeks to try and get better numbers on PTR kek

[molten citrus]

not only for danse

[lilac stag]

The bugged tier still works if they have it

The ilvl apparently not

[slate lantern]

yeah sry meant low ilvl jank

[lilac stag]

sub ain’t blasting that much.

Or it’d be on the tuning notes

[tame salmon]

so for 2nd pull, pull after 1st boss infront of chuch, and the pulls between elites for cds i want to black powder

this does make sense

[lilac stag]

No

BP is very straight forward

#subtlety message

[tame salmon]

yeah i see

I understand it now.

[slate lantern]

Does LE's WA pack track flawless form anywhere?

[lilac stag]

Strike Finish Storm to get FW on everything & go to town

[lilac stag]

It should be yes

[spark tusk]

Yes, it is recolored to Nimble Flurry icon

because that's why you care about maintaining it

why have we not figured out the technology to make hdr screenshots not look like the surface of the sun

[tribal blade]

what's good uptime for aug atm

in keys

[slate lantern]

4

[swift tinsel]

Used to be like 80-85% but idk if that’s the case anymore if you’re talking about Ebon might

[worn cape]

This means they now have time to fix the tier set, right? Right?

[rocky ocean]

who needs tier set anyway

[dry plank]

Not necessarily. They could spent time implementing next patch or expansion.

[worn cape]

I’m gonna laugh so hard if it never gets fixed.

[warm veldt]

Screw it I'm just going to main Mage and get title for free next season

(No I'm not, I'm addicted to this god forsaken spec)

[frank musk]

Once you go sub, you can only unsub.

You shall never know the sweet release of respeccing or rerolling.

[tulip glade]

So what you’re saying is don’t reroll sub, you’ll never get out? 😅

[rocky ocean]

I'm insta going back to arms the moment they remove fyralath

[frank musk]

Yes, so if you dont want to get caught dont get in.

Do not listen to the sirens songs.... she will never let you leave.

[tulip glade]

But at least sub is going to be amazing in keys and raid, right? Right?

[keen dome]

Always is.

[tulip glade]

😂

[steel zinc]

New ptr Update didn't fix anything for rogue I guess?

[worn cape]

Nope

[frank musk]

They tried fixing us, but they couldnt see us.

[warm veldt]

I see what you did there

Real subtle

[steel zinc]

Insane tier set not working during whole testing

[worn cape]

Yeah, it is very annoying.

[dreamy badger]

now its just 50/50 whether it will be omega broken or dogwater on live

place your bets now

[frank musk]

It was not very subtle of them to show everyone that they wont even comment on it.

I will place 1 copper on both. Our economy is crazy as it is.

[dreamy badger]

reasonable

[frank musk]

It's more copper then Blizzard will ever be able to give us because our bank accounts are set to stealth.

[steel zinc]

considering other 2 rogue specs look even worse

[dreamy badger]

lol

looking back the last couple of raids/seasons though, we are always fine

it will work out somehow

[frank musk]

In the land of the blind (skill) the man with one eye is king.

[frank musk]

It always will.

[steel zinc]

problem was it was mostly after a rework or as we got buffs in like week 10

and week 10 is w/e

[dreamy badger]

i cant remember further back than the last 2 seasons

but atleast in df and tww so far we where good right off the bat imo

[dry plank]

S4 DF is meme

[dreamy badger]

thats not a real season

[dry plank]

We have less bugs in DF and less than in DF we have in shadowlands etc

In next expansion we will have +10 new bugs each spec at least xD

[frank musk]

It just bugs.

[dreamy badger]

wouldnt be as fun without

we love bugs

[frank musk]

-Todd Howard

I love bugs, just so i can step on them and loot them.

[dry plank]

I bet you liked RS bug

[frank musk]

Everyone loved that bug.

[dreamy badger]

we have to keep a steady supply of bugs, so when they fix them we get a free buff

[frank musk]

Then blizzard discovers that they accidentally buffed a spec that they cant see, and then introduces a new bug to compensate.

Cycle of Stealth

[steel zinc]

tbf tuning isnt done yet

[frank musk]

Nah it is far from over.

We get to beta test it on live tho 😄

[steel zinc]

nah its 3 weeks until the patch

4 until the season starts

[frank musk]

I wish whoever is at the wheel the best of luck.

[supple pawn]

am i doing okay (+5 SV overall)

[jaunty umbra]

you are doing better than mage and worse than lock

all i can tell from the info you provided

[sick jackal]

What ilvl are you?

[supple pawn]

598, 4 set

[sick jackal]

Not bad but can you send in your damage breakdown

This late in the season in low keys usually dps is either extreme low or extreme high due to group ilvl and other stuff like that

Imo trying to have a similar damage breakdown will help with dps a lot

[lilac stag]

Likely fine. Too many factors to judge from details from a key where trash pull size and how quickly it gets deleted matter.

[supple pawn]

also prolly relevant, my trinkets are skardyns and ovi egg

610 616 each

[sick jackal]

I am not sure about ds but evis looks kinda high

[lilac stag]

Oh god. Not fine. deathstalker.

[sick jackal]

But that depends on how fast the packs die

I would say try getting into a 10

[lilac stag]

Your not getting into a 10 at 598 without friends

And they’ll shift how fast things die

[sick jackal]

The wow dilemma

[lilac stag]

Take the 637 SV hunter or the 598 sub rogue. lol

[sick jackal]

Ill be real if it was me i would take the 598 rogue

Nore damage for me 😉

[lilac stag]

Nah. You’re not getting out of lfg as every healer and tank drops group after invite.

So zero dmg for you.

[supple pawn]

i know x3

[lilac stag]

Just about all of us play trickster.

@vestal escarp were you still messing around with DS in keys? This breakdown look about right?

[sick jackal]

Ds just doesnt have the additional cp refund to feel smooth

Ill probs play trickster even if ds is stronget

[fathom adder]

When playing Trickster sub an aoeing, i do use shadowstrike/ambush up to 7 targets, after that i do shurken + black powder? I heared shadowstrike and bp is ideal too but i cannot remember when that should be used. Is there something i overlooked?

[supple pawn]

😭

[hazy breach]

You never spam storm in dance

Its always strike > sectech > storm > BP > strikes/bps until dance ends

BP on 5 or more

If youre not bping skip the storm

[thin lion]

Is there a possibility that we are playing DS Dark Brew in S2 with the new set? because of the shadow dmg amp? 😄

[hazy breach]

Probably not for st

[lilac stag]

Not in ST

[tulip gorge]

are we playing DS for m+?

[tepid trellis]

dunno, are we?

[lilac stag]

No. Survival.

[tulip gorge]

you will end up missing being a rogue

just wait

[lilac stag]

nah. 1/6 spec combos is enjoyable.

Delete DS

actually put a minute of Dev time into the spec

[tulip gorge]

I wouldn't mind DS if the CDR on sec tech wasn't worse

[lilac stag]

Take less than a year to fix trigger inducing bugs

[tulip gorge]

also the degenerate target swap tech must be fixed

[lilac stag]

I love my rogue, but fuck it. To alt status.

[lilac stag]

It won’t

[tepid trellis]

cdr on sectech is the least of DS worries

[sly shore]

expect nothing to be fixed on this class

for the rest of the xpac

[tepid trellis]

if anything it is its dance cdr

thats awful

[sly shore]

and you won't be disappointed

[tulip gorge]

isn't dance cdr the same for both trickster and DS?

[tepid trellis]

no

[sly shore]

trickster has more cdr

because of coup

[lilac stag]

Sub changes 2nd to last week of midnight beta.

[tepid trellis]

trickster has more

coups is like an evis just with 5 more cps used

[lilac stag]

Trickster literally makes the spec playable

[tulip gorge]

I see

[tepid trellis]

ds is fine if you have 100% uptime all the time

[lilac stag]

DS shows what an abomination the base line spec is

[lilac stag]

What is this outlaw?

[sly shore]

I mean the same shows with assa right

lose mark for any reason

-40% dps

[supple pawn]

is this true of trickster only, or DS as well?

[hazy breach]

Trickster

Deathstalker doesnt have unseen blade and nimble flurry

[supple pawn]

tbf im probably playing this spec wrong im using shuriken storm at two targets because i thought i read it on the wowhead guide

[tulip gorge]

technically true for DS too, since you have to shadow strike from time to time

[lilac stag]

Trickster is strike, finish, storm then back to striking.

The storm is for FW spread with 2nd rotten charge

[supple pawn]

okay im not stupid

[hazy breach]

You can already, its good numerically

[tulip gorge]

but I don't want to

[hazy breach]

Then dont

[sly shore]

that's outside dance

[supple pawn]

and for dance it's only 5+ it seems

[tulip gorge]

if sub is the meta spec I want trickster to be the play

[lilac stag]

Outside of dance.

Which doesn’t matter

We do no dps then

[supple pawn]

i should've clarified, i was trying to figure if i was suppossed to backstab or storm x3

[sly shore]

2cp > 1cp

[lilac stag]

Outside of dance healers do more dps

[vestal escarp]

Gm yes just missing gb 15 as DS then all 15s done

[lilac stag]

Is that breakdown normal (ish)?

[vestal escarp]

Breakdown is alright but misses a lot of context

[hazy breach]

Idk not thrilled about zero changes to subs aoe

ST rotation is good, especially with trickster its very very good and fun imo

Probably the best its been in a long while

But aoe is just ugh

[tulip gorge]

why change perfection?

[hazy breach]

Too complicated for no reason, the CD alignments are complicated enough already

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/absolute-cinema-raccoon-absolute-cinema-gif-17862327649353748812

Specs is perfect. ~blizzard

[vestal escarp]

In ST it could be better

[supple pawn]

what's the TL;DR

i also dont play trickster but i've also never tried it so

[hazy breach]

Wdym

There no changes

[lilac stag]

DS is the bigger problem

For aoe

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[supple pawn]

OH

misread sorry

lol

[hazy breach]

The storm there is crucial but feels unimportant, and you cant place it earlier because then you lose out on a rotten stack due to a bug

And like nimble flurry implies we should evisc until 8 targets

But its actually just better to bp at 5

Idk

But ye its atleast not deathstalker aoe

[tulip gorge]

well at least trickster gives you the option to do prio damage without losing too much aoe damage, no?

[lilac stag]

Another BP buff and it’ll be 2 targets.

[hazy breach]

Deathstalker does significantly more prio

While never losing any aoe

[vestal escarp]

Actually spamming bp as trickster is very flat aoe like pre tww

[hazy breach]

BP spam as deathstalker does more prio than eviscerate spamming as trickster too

Seeing as deathstalker BP does around 80-85% of the damage of eviscerate on pure ST

[lilac stag]

did you figure out the numerical gain for the target swap strike spamming?

[hazy breach]

Like 6-7%

[lilac stag]

[vestal escarp]

[lilac stag]

yeah I’ll toss bombs

[tulip gorge]

time to nerf eviscerate then

[lilac stag]

This timeline is cursed

Maybe just alt outlaw

[keen dome]

I'm sure it'll find a way to get more cursed.

[vestal escarp]

There are many design issues we can point out, just gotta wait for someone to adress em

[keen dome]

It'll happen. We've had some good fixes so there's hope.

[lilac stag]

Don’t hold your breath.

[keen dome]

What if I play an undead

[supple pawn]

@vestal escarp you'd suggest lining skardyn's up with sectech whenever flagblades is down?

[lilac stag]

You’re already dead. Won’t matter.

[supple pawn]

actually that's not even a DS thing sorry for ping

[lilac stag]

Save it for flag

You’re a 3 min trinket

[supple pawn]

ouch

[vestal escarp]

Spam lfr and get a transmitter or a siren isle vyrkul lantern dont play skadryn

Also ping green names

[lilac stag]

606 lateen better that 610 skadryns likely.

[supple pawn]

damn, i mailed myself a champ skardyn's i got on my mage haha

to replace the lantern

ill swap it after this dungeo

[vestal escarp]

[supple pawn]

whuh

idk tf im doing 😭

[keen dome]

We really want 1:30 trinkets, basically

So they always line up with our big buttons

Packing everything into the mondo dance explosion damage fiesta moment

[lilac stag]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[vestal escarp]

All in all if rog has to compete in keys dmg theres always sin

[lilac stag]

Don’t wish that voodoo on people

[hazy breach]

Should prob use both

A 619 lantern is unironically as good as the 639 trinkets

For the offslot

[haughty mural]

[hazy breach]

Even a 606 lantern is really strong

[lilac stag]

Ye

[vestal escarp]

But i didnt say OL

[haughty mural]

[lilac stag]

Though mentally saving a 2 min for 3 mins is brain dmg for some

[lilac stag]

Bomba for everyone

[fathom adder]

@hazy breach thank you

until 5 is then only st rotation i guess?

[hazy breach]

ye

[lilac stag]

I need to mess with MM still

[fathom adder]

ty again

just to be sure again: shadowstrike is always > storm inside dance, no matter the target count (as trickster) aside from then storm once for fw i guess to bp if 5+?

[hazy breach]

Yes

A. Strike just does more damage tha storm always with
B. Strike procs unseen blade, which also does fuckloads of damage and advances your coup, which leads to even more damage

The storm there is just really cringe. I was hoping for a FW removal/rework so we wouldnt have to do that since its cringe

[fathom adder]

ok thanks for explaining it

[hazy breach]

As its decently common to end up with coup on your last gcd of dance because you had to storm, and since coup does damage over its entire 1 second duration a decent chunk of it ends up being outside dance

[vestal escarp]

That delay is crazy

[lilac stag]

mmhm

[supple pawn]

why is arakara hard

[lilac stag]

it’s not, but you’re in low key hell

[keen dome]

The final boss can be a complete pain, though

[supple pawn]

i swear the first was worse

[supple pawn]

it's actually so surprising this is a real thing

i gueess it makes sense but

raaghh

[keen dome]

First boss requires a good tank to understand how to move it, and DPS to understand how to swap target, CC, slow, etc. So it makes sense it'd be hard in lower keys. But typically it's the final one that's the nightmare esp with higher melee counts. (I also just suck at it)

[pale python]

can you elaborate more, because I have this trinket and simcraft does not tell its better, Am I missing somthing?

[kind bluff]

Last boss you can cheese as rogue. Just shadowstep an ally at the last second and u don't even get downtime. Or cloak when ur cds are running so u don't lose dmg there.

[hazy breach]

What

[limber folio]

so, im just looking at single target opener

the continuance is just spamming evis while also holding atleast 1 SD for SB?

[kind bluff]

You use them together making sure u have 2 of each for flag windows.

[lilac stag]

It gets worse at 6-10.

8 especially

[limber folio]

man

ive read the stories

[lilac stag]

I say this I’ve done it once on my warrior and now again trying to get Hunter ready for next season

[supple pawn]

just bricked a 7 and 6 ak x3

[limber folio]

low key hell is insane, people kicking people for playing bad once

[supple pawn]

now a 5 ak..

[limber folio]

i did like

a single 10 on one of my alts

the healer just died cause he wasn't healing on 3rd boss in cot

and stood in the pools 😭

[supple pawn]

real

[lilac stag]

this is low key funsies. warrior and I are same ilvl

[supple pawn]

you playing aff or demo?

[lilac stag]

SV

[supple pawn]

nah but i feel it haha

[lilac stag]

sub it's really painful since you have to do a bit of CD planning

and there is non of that in low keys

maybe we pull this pack with the other, maybe we just pull 3 mobs

[supple pawn]

yeah..

[lilac stag]

assa unironically good since bleeds just pop at low health

and you dont worry about anything

[slender trail]

Hey, I’m returning to wow after many years away. I want to play sub rogue, but have little-no knowledge of the spec, and I’ve been away for a long time. Are there any good sub rogue PvE streamers to watch? If not - are there any YouTube videos that walk through the spec in detail, or is the best content the icyveins guide?

[keen dome]

All three of the written guides are really good, and helpful. And just asking questions or wanting clarity on something in here is a very good tool, too! No question is bad, imo.

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[slender trail]

Thank you!

[sullen hare]

Both eleem and hachadino have YouTube resources if that's more your thing but those guides are really quite good

[mint swift]

Minus whispyr

He totally a fraud

Jk love him

[sullen hare]

Whispyr is ravenholdt's worst sub writer by a long shot

[mint swift]

Ok when you put it like that

[keen dome]

I bet I could write a worse guide

It'd just be "This is the hex code for the purple colour we are" and then a 5,000 word essay on why purple is a cool colour

[sullen hare]

Actually he did give us a shout out early in the expansion when he gave death stalker a dressing down so you know what maybe I'm being unfair

[mint swift]

I wonder how id do writing a guide

Probably not the best, but not the worst

[lilac stag]

That was low hanging fruit. Serves assa more if DS was shit on both to try to get it fixed.

he does know the spec though.

[slate lantern]

I'm learning sub as well, echoing the hachadino recommendation, he has a Google sheet with cd timings for your rotation which I've found very helpful

[random hare]

@vale pine

could this be better for ptr? im using old 2 set+new 2 set

since new 4 set is bugged

just fully buff up the main spenders

[bleak wind]

no shadowcraft is cooked

[vestal escarp]

missing capstone is a huge dps loss

also spec doesnt function without craft

[random hare]

well

i could drop db

[vale pine]

don't think you would drop danse macabre

[vestal escarp]

danse is always stronger than db

[vale pine]

maybe only one point in extra symbols

[tepid trellis]

no DM no Shadowcraft

[random hare]

like

u think this build will stay the best? in ptr

heres the full dmg breakdown of that build+new 4 set

[bleak wind]

also taking 2 extra symbols without shadowcraft feels useless you won't have the cdr

[random hare]

surely the rotten is extra

no?

@tepid trellis is this good

or is rotten too big on st?

[bleak wind]

why do you not like rotten 😄

you don't like putting FW on all targets

[tepid trellis]

finality really isnt that good

[random hare]

ye but look at my dmg breakdown

its just way different in season 2

[random hare]

u have 30% more dmg perma on those finishers

[vestal escarp]

DS does that effortlessly

[random hare]

just because of 2 set

[vestal escarp]

breakdown is the same as now

[bleak wind]

wouldn't say effortlessly with barely no crit

[vestal escarp]

just numbers up

[tepid trellis]

not really if you compare it to DS

[vestal escarp]

storm has 60% crit as ds

with bis stats of S1

even more in s2

[mint swift]

I feel like shuriken tsunami sounds cooler than shuriken tornado

shuriken typhoon

[sullen hare]

cart load of shurikens at costco?

[bleak wind]

how do you get to 60

[vestal escarp]

improved storm and momentum

on top of natty about 20% from gear

[tepid trellis]

you basically have 30% from talents alone

well 35%

with deadly prec i guess

[bleak wind]

ye but its still like 3-4 storms for all FW compared to 1

[molten citrus]

XTN looked at it yesterday and was ignored #subtlety message

[random hare]

oh shit

[hallow ice]

oh sorry i didnt see his reply, thank you for pointing this out ❤️

[random hare]

u ignored his log review

[molten citrus]

He didn’t reply in the thread :p

[tepid trellis]

not wrong

[random hare]

xtn fault for replying without @ ing him

lmao

replying 10 mins later and not @ ing is cursed

[molten citrus]

U ignored

[hallow ice]

yea sorry my fault, thank you for replying, i appreciate it

i will supply a premium feet picture

[random hare]

ok

send it to my dm's

flowers between the fingers too

[molten citrus]

[vale pine]

[hallow ice]

sure anything else

maybe some spaghetti sauce on the toes or

[molten citrus]

Make sure they are vanished in the pic

Or ross may never leave you alone

[slate lantern]

The other sub rogue in that logs opener is the most cursed thing

[lilac stag]

It just has room for improvement

[tepid trellis]

penthouse space of improvement

[random hare]

4 set no longer perma 10 stacks

gg guys

it was fun

still winning tho over the enh

[lilac stag]

Enh are all sandbagging to not get nerfed

[random hare]

nah

sub is still rly good

[spark tusk]

deathstalker or trickster?

[random hare]

ds

[spark tusk]

unfort

[random hare]

why

[tepid trellis]

nobody likes DS

[spark tusk]

I just like flurry and trickster play

[tepid trellis]

thats why

[spark tusk]

just gameplay

[lilac stag]

Nothing changes and it got a 3% big fix buff. Good is not playing DS

[random hare]

ah

i mean

DS is just way stronger

troll not to play

no?

[hazy breach]

No

[lilac stag]

Sub ain’t good if DS is the play.

[random hare]

or how big is diff?

[hazy breach]

Theyre about the same

[random hare]

are they

rly

how big in %?

[spark tusk]

Brother at not level of content that I'll be personally doing is there a way to int

[random hare]

i'll try trickster now

[lilac stag]

We can int keys together.

[spark tusk]

Don't ask how my time tanking a 7 last night went

https://media.tenor.com/_pz48ESVe4cAAAAi/glorp-glorpnotl.gif

[lilac stag]

Blame the healer

[uneven scarab]

Always

[lilac stag]

I signed up for a GB 8. We got to the first boss. Realized at that point in time a Ret Paladin applied as Tank and had never tanked a god damn thing.

[supple pawn]

tragedy

[uneven scarab]

[spark tusk]

I know how to play tank I just don't do many keys so I never know what pulls/mobs are dangerous or what pulls to combine or what count is needed etc

So I just fumble

[lilac stag]

I’m pretty sure I have more experience evasion tanking

[spark tusk]

Don't use defensive on big tankbuster because I don't know what moves are tankbusters

so I just die

[lilac stag]

Poof

[uneven scarab]

Tacticians are scary

[spark tusk]

but then I learn after dieing and will defensive after that

[lilac stag]

Well if it killed you it was a tank buster.

[spark tusk]

unfort tho at that point the group leaves

[lilac stag]

Need a RH key

[uneven scarab]

True

[lilac stag]

Quazii tank vids are goated

If you want to study

vs yolo

[spark tusk]

but yoloing is exciting

[supple pawn]

instructions unclear: falling off the bridges in AK is a tankbuster

[spark tusk]

and studying is for nerds

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/nerds-mad-football-rage-gif-16650450

[uneven scarab]

aint nothing like dawnbreaker and learning that tacticians just auto you for 20 mil damage

[lilac stag]

Haha

I love how fast DB is with a decent group

[uneven scarab]

Yeah it can be quick

[lilac stag]

I still need to pug city & sv on the hunter for io. I don’t want to.

[random hare]

trickster

is miles worse wtf

https://tenor.com/view/aintnoway-gif-27058877

[uneven scarab]

Tf no it aint

[random hare]

maybe its because of rly big pulls

ye its way less dps

[uneven scarab]

Are u using bp at 5

[random hare]

noticable

[mint swift]

Show source

Please

[random hare]

tf is bp gonna do when nimble furry stops working

also i need to funnel boss

[tepid trellis]

genuinely respectfully it is a skill issue

[uneven scarab]

[random hare]

yeah my bad pressing eviscerate was definitely a skil issue

[lilac stag]

You don’t understand the strength of BP

[tepid trellis]

bp is like 80% of an evis

[random hare]

[bleak wind]

show breakdown

[hazy breach]

Unironically yes

[mint swift]

It is pretty good bait tbh

[random hare]

xd

[lilac stag]

There’s a reason we have maths for figuring out target counts.

[random hare]

boss has to die = skill issue to pad

keep on yapping

[lilac stag]

Play a real funnel spec then

[bleak wind]

so you are saying you did evis as DS and did more damage?

[uneven scarab]

[random hare]

?

idk if ur trolling

or not

[lilac stag]

[hazy breach]

Ye and how much more damage do you think eviscerating the boss does compared to BPing

[molten citrus]

[vestal escarp]

trickster bp is weaker

[bleak wind]

if I understand you correctly you are saying you have to evis as trickster

for boss dam

so did you do that as DS

[patent crystal]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[random hare]

NO

capslock

[bleak wind]

then why do you feel like you have to as trickster

[random hare]

time for trickster

gonna play it on ToP

[random hare]

trickster tricks isnt working

someone report

[hazy breach]

It is

[random hare]

im getting aggro

[fallow nimbus]

You have to tricks again if a new tank is there

[random hare]

nah

getting aggro with tricks up

its weird

destro destroyedf

with pi

on him

st is absolutely crazy

it'll 100% get nerfed on live

having 10 stacks on boss insta made me burst 15m st

imagine with 4pc working

[molten citrus]

if u mean the shadow dmg, they were saying that it is working now

[random hare]

oh rly

interesting

i've been losing winnstreak here and there

i think its fixed sometimes

[dry plank]

Yes sub giga broken and deserves 35% nerf

[barren wren]

[pliant topaz]

thats 2pc. seems to proc the 15% on damage instance instead of cast (bp on 5 targets -> 10 damage instances each with 15% chance of dropping it)

4pc works fine

2pc amp doesnt work with shadowed finishers, but who knows if thatll ever be fixed

[molten citrus]

He was still having perma stacks yesterday I think

[pliant topaz]

oh banger!

welp, the implementation details we gave koji only include the shadowed finishers bugs

hopefully the rest gets fixed but who knows

[molten citrus]

Eleem was saying for some people it’s still borked to perma stacks

[molten citrus]

[random hare]

bm hunter with pi

[bleak wind]

are you not tracking your coup?

[random hare]

no

[bleak wind]

so there is just a good chance you send it on a target without fazed

[random hare]

i never played trickster, what would tracking it do

why?

[bleak wind]

you don't get stacks

[random hare]

to give him a dot?

idk

sounds like its irrelevant to track such a thing

[bleak wind]

you don't get flawless form stacks if you use it on a target wihtout fazed

[subtle wing]

Are we finally getting a sub season or is blizzard going to take it out back?

[bleak wind]

that is very relevant

[random hare]

ah

flawless form

i see

wait wdym

it says

u get flawless form if hes fazed

on the tooltip

[bleak wind]

yes

[random hare]

and

[bleak wind]

but if you don't know when you are gonna coup, there is a chance you just use it ona target that doesn't have it

[random hare]

i dont understand what ur trying to say

[patent crystal]

and you get more stacks if you use it on a target who is fazed

more stacks = more dmg

[random hare]

and hes saying i should use it on a target that isnt fazed

[bleak wind]

no

I am saying

if you don't track it

its gonna happen

[keen dome]

If you aren't aware that Coup is coming up, you can't plan to make sure it'll go on a target with Fazed. So you'll end up wasting damage

[random hare]

ah

i see

but what the fuck would i do if the target isn't fazed

xdd

[bleak wind]

bp

[random hare]

i see

[bleak wind]

or rupture

something else

[worn ivy]

I belive in SL they changed tot interaction. Or mobs were using melee hit 0.5 sec late so they got tricksed like i can tell there is something wrong in tot right now in all specs

For example back in the days u could tricks tank and pull mobs

Now try to do it

You will die

Maybe they do this to prevent tot snapping mobs

If anyone has any idea i would like to know why tricks is not working like it was before

[random hare]

not talking about that

im bursting a mob with 1 hour tricks up

im getting aggro over on my 5th gcd

i know it was changed

same with grappling hook and few other spells

what im talking about is completely different

[solid marsh]

hello! just a baby who's leveling, I'm surprised that sub rogues don't maintain slice and dice at all in the leveling guide, is that just not a thing for sub? and help me understand it seems like we just use secret technique instead? are we unable to do both or something?

[weary saffron]

There's a talent that constantly refreshes slice and dice on all specs with your main finisher

[solid marsh]

oh super cool alright thank you!

[weary saffron]

Or it's baseline now, one of the two. It's called cut to the chase

Procs on eviscerate for sub

[solid marsh]

but does that mean we imply that we should apply it manually if for whatever reason it isn't there or it doesn't matter?

[hazy breach]

You never need to press slice and dice no

[weary saffron]

Nope don't press the button manually, your first eviscerate will apply it

[solid marsh]

okay thank y'all for the advice!

[weary saffron]

It is a newer chante and we love it

Change

[uneven scarab]

instead of extending it like it used to it now just adds it

[sullen hare]

Since I haven't seen it mentioned by name, it's called cut to the chase

[molten citrus]

ye pechorin mentioned it

[dawn pasture]

yo , im back on game actually , i'll want anyone to clarify me sub this patch. ( mythic + )
Do we play trickster again? then do we play black powder at 3+ target? or still full eviscerate like before to make Aoe big ( cf tricker)

( i have this spec for mm+)

[sullen hare]

Turns out I'm blind

[lilac stag]

Trickster. BP 5 targets

I would read one of the guides over so you’re not missing some not so obvious stuff

[slate lantern]

does it only matter if we press sectec when we have transmitter buff or do we want it to be up for the clones hit as well

[lilac stag]

You collect transmitter right before first Sectech

[slate lantern]

yeah i got that, just was trying to figure out some discrepencies between some of my blades window damage, and was wondering if im slow on the rotation and hit the second* sectec right as the buff expires, do the clones of that sectec get buffed by transmitter or do they have to proc when the buff is still active

[spark tusk]

Have to proc whiel the buff is still active

That is, the damage of tec clones does not snapshot to when you press the button

[slate lantern]

thank you yeah that was what i was wondering

cause there were times i was juuuuust squeezing it in but wasnt sure if that was good enough

[spark tusk]

It happens, the window is tight to be sure

[lilac stag]

Clones need to be in it

Whoops. LE got it

[slate lantern]

thank you! while you're here, i was wondering if anyone has done any writeup on cd windows and specifically how to use the lil 2.x dance 3.x sod icons that you include next to sectec in your WA to tell if you should send/hold them? was poking around in the wa settings but wasnt seeing much

97 when sectec fully is in transmitter and 78 when it dropped off before the clones procced!

[tulip gorge]

oh man even yoda is playing sub rogue on ptr now

it's over

into the ground it goes

[random comet]

its been looking pretty good

[lunar bluff]

what have u sub rogues been using on PTR?

tier gives off dark brew vibes

[upper rock]

how do you guys apply find weakness on 3 targets? you still shuriken once for it or tap through?

[hazy breach]

Shuriken outside dance

[hazy breach]

Shockingly when youre bugged to permanently have your tier maxxed you do a lot of damage

[tulip gorge]

so when people say tier is not working

[hazy breach]

It got changed

[tulip gorge]

do they mean it's positively bugged?

[hazy breach]

Yes it went from doing nothing

To doing all of it all the time

[dusty totem]

Bliz doesnt know rogue exists we just need to complain about bugs more and they wont have time to formulate nerfs

[tulip gorge]

I just hope blizzard realizes it's the tier set being bugged

[hazy breach]

Genuinely dont think the bug contributes that many percentages anyway as its mostly extra damage outside cds

[tulip gorge]

so we're getting nerfed regardless

[lilac stag]

It’s ptr

[hazy breach]

Ye mostly because the guys playing it on PTR are also playing it very poorly

[lilac stag]

It’s tuning

[hazy breach]

Because theyre good players so they dont need guides they just vibe out the rotation

(which doesnt really work for sub)

[lilac stag]

We need Lashga on ptr

[dry plank]

Kush played on ptr

[hazy breach]

Ye i wasnt really referring to kush, moreso the fotm andies

[lilac stag]

It’s gonna get worse before it gets better in here.

[uneven scarab]

[dusty totem]

Kush did mad dmg aswell

[lilac stag]

Yeah. After finding out RS was fixed he went on stream after not touching it.

[lunar bluff]

rs fixes so juicy, sub dmg profile this season was just so funny to me

doing some keys and dropping a nuke, then under tank dmg

shoutout dance

[vestal escarp]

Mad funny

[lunar bluff]

i enjoyed it tho

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/laugh-lol-lbow-kto-funny-gif-25347485

[lunar bluff]

didnt really raid as it thjis season tho

[uneven scarab]

was a good time in raid

[lunar bluff]

i wouldve played it for queen prog

[uneven scarab]

p1 queen

[hazy breach]

Havent looked much into the new raid yet. But if theres an add that spawns that needs to be bursted down in like 15-20s

Then sub is going to be completely insane at it

Like the first platform on queen

[lunar bluff]

yuh the tier just makes so much sense for sub

cool design

[hazy breach]

I did unironically 18% of my raids damage on progress on that platform

Bursting it before the pullin

[uneven scarab]

[hazy breach]

Obviously a lot of people popped cds elsewhere, but still

I like big bonks and i cannot lie

[keen dome]

[lilac stag]

[slate lantern]

is there any max stacks of flag or naw

[alpine wraith]

30 is max stacks

[alpine wraith]

so i went to sleep without doing much more testing but when i had gone i think they had fixed the shadow damage part of the tier

is it only for sec tech or also other things?

[mint swift]

What’s the theoretical max stacks of Dance macarbre

[hazy breach]

Everything (not items)

[hazy breach]

12 or so iirc

But thats not good at all

[alpine wraith]

if you want to make a clip or something you can get to 11 before using sec tech

but for overall dmg?

nono

[mint swift]

Lmao
Would be funny

[alpine wraith]

well sec tech will be a bit silly now unless they nerf the tier set

should do around 20 to 30 m depending on procs with most normal things up

[hazy breach]

Should be able to do significantly higher

[alpine wraith]

yea im talking no buffs or real shit happening

with the right ring procs authority of radiance on use etc

we will get to high 60m

that sounds fun tbh

and then blades comes in with a steel chair too

IS THAT SHADOWBLADES I SEE WITH A STEEL CHAIr

[vale pine]

you don't care about danse stacks, you will have the right amount by defualt

[radiant haven]

can someone answer a quick question im hella new. Should i have ambush and BTE on the same button when swapping between stealth and no stealth

[molten citrus]

no

[radiant haven]

ok i was lied to LMAO

ty

[molten citrus]

make your stealth bar identical to your non stealth bar. replace sinister strike with ambush, but that depends on the build you play as well. prolly want to ask more in #outlaw

[radiant haven]

oh my fault i thought i was in outlaw

thankyou

[foggy geode]

Ok a question I hope I can word it properly. In the opener after my 1st shadow dance is over I usually have full combo points to evis just as it ended, should I use my 2nd shadow dance before using that evis or is there no big deal?

[random comet]

that pretty much covered it

[foggy geode]

Sooo, no big deal? or I should always shadow dance first

[random comet]

oh my comment was for the outlaw q above sorry

[hazy breach]

You should use dance immediately once your first dance ends

[foggy geode]

ty

[leaden prairie]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[leaden prairie]

do you really not shuriken until 5 targets as ds

[alpine wraith]

you storm at 3 targets 2 targets with witness as ds

in dance outside dance 2+ always storm

[keen igloo]

deepseek is teaching me how to play sub rogue

[molten citrus]

wowhead works wonders frfr

[slate lantern]

Oh my god I'm such an idiot hahah

[keen igloo]

wow writers are human, they flawed

my ai god teach me good

[molten citrus]

for some reason... i highly doubt that

[keen igloo]

you no more big cocka than any other cocka

[keen dome]

But it's just pulling the info from their guides (and probably getting it wrong)

[alpine wraith]

time to put some promts inside the things

make an ASCII dinosaur depseek

🦖

[keen dome]

Hero

[mint swift]

Haven’t done this in mythic my brain fried

[alpine wraith]

after nerfs it is not hard dont worry

[slate lantern]

sorry a lil confused, i thought we wanted to wait til near when the second sectec was up so that we supercharged sectec?

[alpine wraith]

you use SoD before sec tech has nothing to do with dance

or 1 finisher earlier depending

[mint swift]

Yea
Also you use a lot of CDs in sub anyhow so yea

Also SoD + stech without dance looks cursed

But Ik why you do it

[slate lantern]

ah jeez ive been holding second dance and SoD until sectec is almost up, which depending on procs sometimes borks my timing. that makes more sense

mentally i just saw that we cast dance and SoD on the opener together so I just always mentally thought of them paired up

[alpine wraith]

now you know better then

[hazy breach]

No, you hold the symbols to make sure you can supercharge sectech, not dance

You symbols when sectech has 10s or less left

[slate lantern]

I was watching your full guide and your mythic kyveza kill and you seemed to wait a while to press dance again but I also see that you were running TFD which I wasn't... OK some things are coming together about why it wasnt clicking lol

[alpine wraith]

yea for shorter bosses tfd is neutral or almost better

i quite like it but on normal dances just keep that one

[slate lantern]

and in m+ do we take it?

[alpine wraith]

yea in m+ it is good too

[weary saffron]

hach

do you know if uhh

it feels like first dance does not start its 6s timer as soon as i drop combat

[alpine wraith]

correct sometimes it resets the timer becase fuck you

[weary saffron]

yeah I figured that was the reasoning

lmao

[hazy breach]

Its very often worth to wait an extra second or two before you strike into the pack to make sure tfd is up

But dont tell your tank not to chain or whatever, its not a big deal

[weary saffron]

ofc

just something i noticed as soon as i threw a tracker up

it made me question it enough if I want to run it

feels great when you do get it though

[hazy breach]

Well the thing about tfd is that all of the other options are atrocious for anything not purely st

[narrow night]

whats tfd? the first dance?

[slate lantern]

Ya

[random hare]

guys

when do we shadowstrike vs shuriken storm inside of dance?

with deathstalker

[alpine wraith]

read above think i told zac before

uh let me see 2 targets with witness up 3 without inside dance

you still want to strike once in dance tho for DM

[random hare]

u sure? wowhead says Use Shuriken Storm with 5 or more targets.

during dance

like fuck witness just the general rule

the guide is rly confusing it says different things than what im reading here

[alpine wraith]

that is for trickster

and you only use storm once to get FW

for DS it is diff

[random hare]

deathstalker

asking about that specifically

i dont think i'll play trickster tbh

[alpine wraith]

yea i kept that in mind

you can tell fuu when he wakes up to check again think zac also had that idea

[random hare]

i mean

[alpine wraith]

but yea it is diff

[random hare]

me and zac are clueless

we're trying to figure things out atm

[alpine wraith]

yea np just trust

[random hare]

so how many targets

on deathstalker

do i storm

instead of strike

[alpine wraith]

inside dance 2+ with witness up 3 without

outside on 2+ always

[random hare]

ok

[alpine wraith]

because DS has no unseen blade things

[random hare]

hmm

i can blackpowder on st?

for DM

or just 2 targets?

[alpine wraith]

2 targets yes

[hazy breach]

No

[random hare]

ok i want a tea+tornado build

[alpine wraith]

dance is not long enough for DM bp to matter

tornado is very unwieldy

[hazy breach]

On 2 targets you just BP, not for DM

[random hare]

because casual plays it and he literally does alot of dps with it

i think its practically stronger

in ptr

[alpine wraith]

you can try

cold blood is not super strong

anyway

[hazy breach]

I dont understand why you have this weird obsession where everything is wildly different on ptr

You do you

[alpine wraith]

but right now it seems fine mostly as for how tornado works

you can use it on cds just it is not that good

[random hare]

wait we drop coldblood? for tea surely that isnt enough or

[alpine wraith]

i mean you wont drop charger or deeper

would you

those are way stronger

[random hare]

i see

lethality too

yea?

[alpine wraith]

it is fine to try things if you want to go tea

yea you need those points to get to tea

[random hare]

ok ok

do i play follow the blood?

[hazy breach]

No

[random hare]

with tornado

[alpine wraith]

follow is very bad

or more like it does not work

the other one is way better

crit dmg stonks

[random hare]

wait that

[alpine wraith]

also gives crit chance

[random hare]

increases crit chance

yea

ok what am i dropping for tornado

[alpine wraith]

the one just on the left of it

[random hare]

secret strategem?

[alpine wraith]

you just do a switcheroo no

veiltouched

also first dance should be better than wm too

it is very strong in m+

[random hare]

oh -5% magical dmg?

[alpine wraith]

yea

[random hare]

ok what else

[alpine wraith]

that should be it not many changes

db build might become a thing but idk

[random hare]

rotten too powerful to drop yea?

[alpine wraith]

i like having 3 charges of sod

[random hare]

for finality

[alpine wraith]

finality is very weak rn

[random hare]

[alpine wraith]

and db is not super strong either

[random hare]

ye db is w.e

i was just thinking finality because almost all our dmg is just bp/eviscerate on ptr atm

breakdown is kinda big

[alpine wraith]

the increase is not big enough and problem with finality is dropping other points just gives less dmg

[random hare]

like

[alpine wraith]

not much more can be said

[random hare]

just 1 point of the rotten

for finality

[alpine wraith]

rotten is very strong on st vs finality

i mean it is not DM but still finality is just weaker

[random hare]

oh casual is playing finality

interesting

[worthy axle]

Does anyone have PTR build for sub?

[alpine wraith]

yea you can play it with db you just change some things i dont like it that much tho

[random hare]

cant i drop premed for veiltouched?

most of the time it feels wasted

[alpine wraith]

premed is quite good

[hazy breach]

Literally the same as on live

[random hare]

for keys

[worthy axle]

Can u give me code?

[alpine wraith]

yea even for keys

it gives you good globals for dance and also enables strike to full for every dance

and on first strike after entering stealth

[molten citrus]

check wowhead

it has a copy talent loadout button

[worthy axle]

Is it the deathstalker build or trick?

[molten citrus]

both are fine

[worthy axle]

ok ty

[molten citrus]

the 1 on wowhead is trickster

pretty sure you can just swap it to DS without changing anything else if you wanted to

[molten citrus]

it is funny innit

[alpine wraith]

well some people like to try things

unless they begin yapping that it is better with no data to put it forward it is ok

[molten citrus]

ye ofc

but it's usually yapping about 'strimmer does this i think its better'

[random hare]

its not about that

im trying to figure out why hes doing alot more spamming just 1 button

without even striking other mobs

[molten citrus]

its nbd just thought it was funny

[alpine wraith]

well it depends some things can always be bugged

remember it took us a while to even notice all the shadow amps were double dipping on some shit

so if you only go by tooltips and real numbers it can be wrong too

[molten citrus]

i've always disliked nado

just as an example

[alpine wraith]

it is not very valuable right now

[molten citrus]

pressing that button in ST is so bad

like it feels bad i mean

[leaden prairie]

you say that but i showed you i was doing the same damage as him with the normal build

while being mega cooked as sub

also its mega route dependant anyway

[random hare]

yea i mean

he played with yoda

u wont be doing yoda's grp type of dmg

without a real tank

i havent played with a real tank yet on sub

[alpine wraith]

yea sub is super pull dependant but that is also cool

when you blast

that will be some funny combos first weeks of the new season

with people doing regular pulls vs big ones or into bosses or at least 3 or 4 mobs each time

it is always funny

[molten citrus]

i think it will be nice if sub is the strongest spec tbh

sub is quite fun

it used to be so brain off in SL m+

[hazy breach]

Now its not

[alpine wraith]

uh even in sl you had some things like spreading FW for the bp krangle

well most brain thing people utterly fail still is when to use cds

[random hare]

sin is way harder than sub in m+ tho

[alpine wraith]

deadass holding 2 mins of a 1:30 cd

[random hare]

sub isnt that hard

doesnt look hard at all