subtlety

[keen dome]

Should talk about cool music, imo.

Start a fight over who has the best sound

[uneven scarab]

Talking heads

[keen dome]

Yeah they're pretty good

Yello though. Now that's some sound.

[lilac stag]

Just remember. Obama was president went DFA was peak.

[swift tinsel]

Based AF

[lilac stag]

Downhill since then

[swift tinsel]

true and actually

[tulip gorge]

what is dfa

[uneven scarab]

has to be correlated

death from above

[swift tinsel]

1979

there's a band with a good sound

[keen dome]

Hell yeah it is

[uneven scarab]

1979 is great

Yeah

[keen dome]

Too Many Zooz. Some real good brasshouse jazz funk

[lilac stag]

wait I have to ask. @tulip gorge when did you start playing?

[tulip gorge]

retail at the end of bfa

[lilac stag]

Oh you never knew the golden era

[tulip gorge]

and a bit of wotlk on private servers when I was a kid

[uneven scarab]

We had it so good with bfa

[lilac stag]

I wonder who has a good video. Hold please

[uneven scarab]

didn’t know what we had coming to us

[keen dome]

BfA.. Man.

Every tier was dagger depression tier.

[uneven scarab]

Good times

[swift tinsel]

BFA was the end of my LFR hero era

[uneven scarab]

(good times to be a warrior)

[keen dome]

30+ kills on the treasure boss. no dagger. 30+ kills on carapace: no dagger.

Absolutely hell

I might just be cursed, though.

[swift tinsel]

joined a raiding guild at the beginning of SL for the first time since Ulduar lol

[uneven scarab]

I didnt start playing rogue until the end of bfa

Was a fury main

[swift tinsel]

I played it off and on since watching Reckful stream during cata

switched between it and holy paladin

which was my first main

[uneven scarab]

I think the first spec i played was outlaw if u can believe it

Made me fall in love with rogue

[keen dome]

Hell yeah, Cata

[lilac stag]

Come take my spot as rogue. We have daggers drop all the time.

[kind bluff]

I just went sub recently because I fell in love with trickster.

[keen dome]

Well, I'd have to go to the USA for that. And also raid mythic.

Too cursed, sorry

[lilac stag]

Combat was my OG love.

[uneven scarab]

I think i counted about 15+ daggers that dropped during farm that just went to the void

[lilac stag]

Understandable.

[keen dome]

Whenever i run my weekly heroic pug, I always invite a low iLevel rogue or two so daggers don't get wasted

[lilac stag]

I’m still around just because of the guild.

[swift tinsel]

Mostly played sub which was ass in cata lol

[uneven scarab]

If we still pugged i absolutely would too

or raided at all even

[keen dome]

It's a lot of fun tbh

[swift tinsel]

played a bunch of outlaw in BFA which was quite fun

[kind bluff]

I was an enhance main from vanilla till about 3 weeks ago

[keen dome]

They're always Assa rogues

[uneven scarab]

Outlaw in bfa early shadowlands was peak

[lilac stag]

Why would you stop enhancing ?

[swift tinsel]

I honestly loved s3 SL outlaw with the tier set and blunderbuss leggo

[lilac stag]

Was s3 the machine gun animation?

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[uneven scarab]

Oh yeah

[swift tinsel]

Tornado trigger set

[lilac stag]

That was a dopamine hit

[uneven scarab]

That was my fav

[swift tinsel]

which owned

[uneven scarab]

Big time

[kind bluff]

I didn't stop just ran out of things to chase.

[lilac stag]

I see

[hexed sluice]

Arcane mage from BC till this tier when I finally made the jump, rogue was my main alt, but I never swapped cause too attached to reps and acheivements and not wanting to redo things, warbands solved alot of that and let me swap off a class I hated but felt committed to

[uneven scarab]

Fucking minigun pistol shot outlaw

[keen dome]

Assa in Cata, I guess? I dunno, I had no idea what I was doing.
Assa in MoP I I think? knew a bit more but didn't think about it much.
Sub in WoD into Outlaw right at the end
Sub through Legion until Shadowlands.
Shadowlands I went Outlaw then quit.
Sub since.

[swift tinsel]

Especially in contrast to the sub tier set with permablades

[lilac stag]

Frost Gem Assa in SL was fun

[uneven scarab]

I still think about the sepsis assa times

miss her

[lilac stag]

Remembering everyone in here avoiding wasting upgrade currency on the gems

[swift tinsel]

I swapped between resto and boomkin in s2 which was okay but our guild had a big shakeup in sanctum and a bunch of people quit

[lilac stag]

sims kept changing

[swift tinsel]

probably 2/3 of the guild went to play ffxiv

[uneven scarab]

Sanctum caused my guild to absolutely cave in on itself LOL

[swift tinsel]

it was such bad times lmao

[keen dome]

I'm glad I missed Sanctum 'cos the dagger would've destroyed me.

[uneven scarab]

literally had nearly a whole new roster after that

[swift tinsel]

mid raid, awful gem/socket situation, korthia was ass

[tulip gorge]

I didn't miss Sanctum but I definitely missed the daggers

[uneven scarab]

God korthia was so fucking bad

[keen dome]

Sympathy to all my fellow daggerless rogues

[swift tinsel]

tiny area jam packed with elites

but nothing to do lol

[uneven scarab]

I never got one of them either

It was all i wanted

roster boss though

[swift tinsel]

I think I got a fated one lol

swapped back to rogue for s3/s4

[uneven scarab]

I played destro for fated

Had the most fun of my life

[swift tinsel]

just remember endlessly running plaguefall for the trinket

[lilac stag]

Sanctum was fun. I ended up swapping to current guild. Got recruited as Warrior. Then asked to play rogue again on Sylvanas.

[uneven scarab]

My ooze!!

Poxstorm also in there

[swift tinsel]

The guild I joined went from like 30+ in nathria to maybe 18 by sepulcher lol

[lilac stag]

I think I had lfr daggie for kill

[uneven scarab]

Nathria was such a good raid man

[swift tinsel]

1000%

[uneven scarab]

i could raid it today and be absolutely happy

[swift tinsel]

the aesthetic was dope, bosses were mostly awesome

[uneven scarab]

It was sick

[lilac stag]

remember when Anduin was the real CE boss?

[swift tinsel]

the leather mythic set is one of my go-to's

[uneven scarab]

I still wear it a bunch

Its so good

[swift tinsel]

that one and the sepulcher are the only two full sets I'll mog besides mage tower

[uneven scarab]

So many classes have good sets from there too

[lilac stag]

We legit got anduin down and did a unanimous nope to the extra credit bosses.

[swift tinsel]

the caster and plate ones are fucking sick

[keen dome]

Nathria was great in retrospect, but it absolutely killed me. Super hard heroic tier and my guild could not manage it. And i hadn't outgrown my idiocy about heroic back then and some other hangups so it was just.. urgh

[swift tinsel]

Jailer was funny bc one of my guildmates is magnetically drawn to falling in holes

[keen dome]

Denathrius P1, man..

[lilac stag]

Sire was fun, minus the lag in p1

[uneven scarab]

I think we had 210 pulls on heroic to kill denathrius

[lilac stag]

Naughty naughty.

[keen dome]

Holding DPS and trying to get people to do the stupid mechanics..

[uneven scarab]

P1 was ROUGHHHH

[keen dome]

lmao, same. I think we got him on pull 190.

It was just me and a tank alive

[uneven scarab]

Compared to fyrakk which we downed in like 60….

[swift tinsel]

we didn't kill him til like late March as a 3-day guild

[lilac stag]

Watching people load up a pug heroic raid for sire with 30 people and seeing 2/3 of it die due to fps lag

[keen dome]

lmao

[swift tinsel]

but then we swapped tanks and downed it that night lol

esp if you had multiple unholy dk's lol

just cratered your fps

[keen dome]

Our problem was people just not getting the debuff and in/out dance. So obnoxious

[uneven scarab]

All i remember on our kill was that we had like the r1 surv hunter on the server top our dps

When they were legit the worst dps spec

[jaunty umbra]

sv 1 tricks are beasts

[lilac stag]

sv is like sub. Few but those playing it know wtf they’re doing

[uneven scarab]

Was very inspirational to me going forward

Half the reason i play sub yea

[lilac stag]

It’s like lasgha doing his r1 sub attempt in pure pugs. Some are built diffy

[uneven scarab]

one of my very good friends plays surv and i play sub so pugging is always fun when people are like wtf?? These specs do damage?

[swift tinsel]

Dude I love hearing that

[keen dome]

I really like pugging. Just a ton of chaotic fun. I'm collecting a really funny library of weird insults I get thrown my way. Esp as a raid lead

[uneven scarab]

Its awesome

[swift tinsel]

so fucking validating

like this season doing a key with guildmates and the first pull of mists I blew them out of the water and they were like "yeah you can play sub whenever you want lmao"

[lilac stag]

This was crest farming. They have 6 ilvls on me.

[keen dome]

Blasting

[uneven scarab]

Absolutely rocking it

[lilac stag]

it’s still weird not being on a 1 sec gcd

but getting better about it

[uneven scarab]

How you liking the changes?

Im not sure my friend has played since theyve done anything

Or is that only on ptr

[lilac stag]

overall good. The pack leader stuff needs love for SV

Sentinel is amazing now that it follows

[uneven scarab]

Yeah ive heard its way better

[lilac stag]

You lose some free cleave in ST

[uneven scarab]

That was literally his main complaint

Owl down -> tank has to move

[lilac stag]

But you’re gonna see some big crits

[uneven scarab]

hot

[lilac stag]

I’m still frustrated that I only enjoy 1 of the 6 spec/hero combos as rogue

[uneven scarab]

Oh i agree completely

I actually quite enjoy fatebound but i dont wanna play outlaw

[lilac stag]

as a pure dps spec that should never be the case

[uneven scarab]

and it sucks on assa

Atleast warlocks kinda have the same fate

[lilac stag]

Can’t all be mages

[alpine wraith]

DS is just like a job as configuring PBX

[uneven scarab]

Fr

[alpine wraith]

it pays well but it crushes your souñl

[swift tinsel]

11.2 is our time

we get the hunter hero talent treatment

where they actually look at them

[uneven scarab]

I wish they’d make a third tree available for all specs that is like directly designed for your spec instead of mixing two into one

[swift tinsel]

please be trickster please be trickster

[kind bluff]

Please be trickster

[uneven scarab]

make coup one big hit and im on board already

[swift tinsel]

its annoying bc you can tell each one was designed with one spec in mind

[alpine wraith]

well i have bad news

[uneven scarab]

Its like they started with that but at some point had to fit both into one

[swift tinsel]

unless ds is ahead by like 15% in st I'm staying trickster

and I'm never touching that cursed as fuck mark swapping tech in m+

[dry plank]

I don’t think they will fix tier for all our specs guys relax on rework dream

[alpine wraith]

trickster might have more burst so that is something i guess

but with the way things are DS in st seems to be possibly quite ahead

wonder if they change the shadow buff thing

that would help trickster

[dry plank]

DS will be our play S2 not trickster

[uneven scarab]

Let me cope for trickster

i wont let her go

[alpine wraith]

even in aoe DS things hit hard as f with shadow

like mark and witness are kinda crazy

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/minato-naruto-i-dont-know-about-that-one-chief-hand-sings-gif-14766405

[uneven scarab]

Witness is a little bit insane cant lie

In big target counts

[swift tinsel]

I will Deny til the day I die

[alpine wraith]

it is uncapped yes

[uneven scarab]

It hits hard af too

for what it is

[alpine wraith]

our on use is diff now at least

[swift tinsel]

so is my love for trickster

[alpine wraith]

gives mastery instead of agi so

[swift tinsel]

really wish it was swapped to agi on-use

but at least its 1.5

baby steps

[uneven scarab]

gonna have like 200% mastery during cd’s

[swift tinsel]

20% DR here we come

maybe 30

[uneven scarab]

[swift tinsel]

iirc it'll hit 20% by like low to mid mythic ilvl

with flag

[uneven scarab]

cant wait for the sub rogue rework where we now have a haste tax like outlaw

[swift tinsel]

I did a quick napkin math a few weeks ago, dont remember the exact values but we're getting a lottt of mastery

[alpine wraith]

flag does not count towards dr

only real mastery does

[lilac stag]

Just stack crit/vers

[swift tinsel]

I thought it was any mastery stat contribution

[alpine wraith]

flag is mastery % not stat

[uneven scarab]

If we are ds tho crit devalues

cursed

[lilac stag]

Only devalues if you sim.

[uneven scarab]

True id never trust a robot

[swift tinsel]

ah for some reason I had it in my head it was stat

[lilac stag]

Buff Flag

[swift tinsel]

give lashing scars

[uneven scarab]

Buff flag duration back to what it was

[swift tinsel]

and damage increase per stack that hits per finisher

hasn't it always been 24sec

12+12

[uneven scarab]

Maybe

Im thinking of blades maybe idk

Remember when it gave haste though

[swift tinsel]

lmao

ew

[uneven scarab]

I guess maybe they thought itd be good for assa

[swift tinsel]

wouldn't hate getting the Obedience portion back

the vers, not cdr

[uneven scarab]

Oh yeah same

just more burst for free yes please

[swift tinsel]

otherwise we're in 80% flag uptime territory

in which case

Buff flag

[uneven scarab]

Nah sub is def meant to have impactful cd’s

[swift tinsel]

kekw

[uneven scarab]

And not to be shadow outlaw

[swift tinsel]

but they gave us Dreadblades

but shadowy

[uneven scarab]

Yeah they also gave us bf

And gave assa bf

[swift tinsel]

soon we get crackshot

then the world

[uneven scarab]

Outlaw just canf have shit

Bro

“Your secret techs from stealth do not go on cooldown”

[swift tinsel]

casting rupture casts evisc at 80% effectiveness

[uneven scarab]

Could u fucking imagine

[swift tinsel]

lmao just chain orbital strikes

[uneven scarab]

Peak

[swift tinsel]

the pirate channel would be in perma-slow mode if they gave us that

just malding to oblivion

[uneven scarab]

Give outlaw cannonball barrage back

from MoP

that shit went hard

Like legit give outlaw gangplank ult

[swift tinsel]

they need Miss Fortune ult

oo or GP

[haughty mural]

Witness my …..

[uneven scarab]

everytime it hits an enemy it gives cdr

Easy synergy

[uneven scarab]

[haughty mural]

Trickster

I don’t know what you thought

[uneven scarab]

Witness me!!!

[haughty mural]

Fingers crossed rupture Spam won’t become the thing

[uneven scarab]

fingers crossed trickster doesnt get gapped

[vestal escarp]

it's chill

[tame salmon]

are there any must have macros except for CB+ST?

[swift tinsel]

nope

[uneven scarab]

not really no

[tame salmon]

ight nice

[swift tinsel]

sub isn't really a macro spec bc of how our cooldowns work

a lot of "sometimes you use x with y, sometimes you use x, sometimes just y"

[tame salmon]

yeah

[swift tinsel]

etc etc

[tame salmon]

how do u use ur SoD with SD when u have no blades or flag

[swift tinsel]

with sectech

[tame salmon]

thats the main thing im curious on

[uneven scarab]

you play around sectech cd

[swift tinsel]

just make sure you have 2x sod/dance for flag/blades window

[uneven scarab]

If its up use them

[kind bluff]

I have mainly been trickster, when I go DS what is the biggest change in single target?

[uneven scarab]

Also this ^^

[swift tinsel]

you'll pretty much stop sending them when flag has ~30 sec left on its cooldown

[kind bluff]

Just the clear the witness usage right?

[uneven scarab]

Forcing to 7cp for dn, ctw

[swift tinsel]

that, and you have less cdr so you'll get one less sod/dance window between cooldowns

[tame salmon]

ight this is a nice reminder to have

[uneven scarab]

You get less cdr as ds as well

[tame salmon]

also in that window i want to open with 7cp+SC into CB+ST?

[kind bluff]

Ah makes sense.

[swift tinsel]

Ideally have 1 sod ready and another with ~10sec left on its cd when you go into flag, same with 1 dance ready and 1 with ~30-40sec left on 2nd charge

[tame salmon]

then just spam my finishers to make one more ST in that window

?

[kind bluff]

So when I use dance and I have DN up, it auto gives deathmarks. How does that work, do I lose DN? Do I avoid this?

[swift tinsel]

DN doesn't give marks, Strike does

but you can't consume marks with DN up so you need to spend it asap

you can only lose DN by letting it time out or by consuming it with a 7cp evisc

[kind bluff]

Ohhhhhh that makes sense!

Ty as always!

[swift tinsel]

so consuming DN is highest prio bc it locks your dmg

[kind bluff]

Yup

[swift tinsel]

you wanna go into it with 7cp - flag - evisc/rupture - dance/sod - strike - sectech/blades - strike - evisc

and use CB + sectech for 2nd sectech

where you have more flag stacks and flawless form stacks

[tame salmon]

ah

2nd sectech

[swift tinsel]

sorry trying to type with my boss lurking lol

[tame salmon]

haha

nw

[swift tinsel]

its a relatively minor gain to save CB for 2nd sectech so you can macro them together if you want

[uneven scarab]

Yeah second sectech is mega juiced so cb on that is a good bit better

[tame salmon]

ill have to tinker a lil with this

[swift tinsel]

sub benefits a lot from practice and feeling out where you can send sod/dance/sectech between flag/blades windows so it'll def help

[uneven scarab]

Real practice is legit the best thing

Just feeling it out

[swift tinsel]

you'll start to feel out the flow of it and it'll feel smooth

[hazy breach]

Main thing is to make sure you always always are able to use 2 dances+symbols+sectechs in flag+blades

[swift tinsel]

^^

[hazy breach]

You dont need 2 charges of dance immediately when you press flag, but you need around 40s left on your second charge of dance (since spending cp reduces its cooldown you will have it up by the time you want it)

So atleast 1 charge ready and 40s left on the second one when you press flag

[tame salmon]

yeah im still kinda new to wow

started playing wow in september and actually started putting some time in m+ in november as assa

im 3340 rio rn

so hopefully sub wont take too long to get the hang of

[uneven scarab]

its all about the damage window on sub

[swift tinsel]

Literally all that matters

[uneven scarab]

You do very little outside of it so

[tame salmon]

yeah it looks kinda fun tho

also ive seen casual and some others pump hard in packs in dungeons

[uneven scarab]

Its insanely fun when you understand it

[tame salmon]

high keys

[swift tinsel]

Especially next season when we do even less outside of them

Sub is pure dopamine in packs when you’re nailing your windows

[tame salmon]

yeah i was watching casual earlier and he had big numbers

[uneven scarab]

having a tank who actually knows how your spec works will help alot there also

in m+

[swift tinsel]

And your boss damage is nuclear

[uneven scarab]

truth

[tame salmon]

yeah i mean ill prob just find a tank to have a team with then we figure stuff out

[uneven scarab]

absolute boss blaster

[hazy breach]

Our fury warrior was lagging and out DH was out this week on broodtwister

Some of those sectechs were juicy as hell man, full pad

[swift tinsel]

Holy shit

That’s prime right there haha

[uneven scarab]

god i wanna raid already can undermine come out

[swift tinsel]

I’m looking forward to seeing my name at the top of the meters for the first 45-1mim lol

And then again a little later when flag is back

[uneven scarab]

So many times i heard my ele shaman go where tf did u come from when the second set comes back haha

[crystal rain]

How are we feeling about sub next season boys

[hazy breach]

Theres been no changes so if you like it now youll most likely enjoy it next patch too

[brisk raptor]

Why on a single target opener on a boss do you send shadow dance, symbols, cold blood, and secret tech before pressing shadow blades

[wind canopy]

Because ST doesn't benefit off SB (until 11.1), you're gonna have premed to get full CP anyway, and SB has a shorter duration than Flag

Might be something else I'm missing

[foggy kiln]

yea, your subscription 😛

[wind canopy]

I will fucking k...

[dim trail]

Hi roguemates, what is the state of rogue now? assa is still the meta or sub?

[swift tinsel]

too early to tell

[hazy breach]

I will almost surely play sub

(thats based on vibes and has nothing to do with meta)

[swift tinsel]

same, unless they mechanically destroy trickster

[wind canopy]

Same

(even though I'm not subbed anymore )

[tribal blade]

speaking of screwing up cd windows

we did court this week and during the 1st dmg amp on the skinny caster boss she moved out of my melee range right as i pressed flag

completely missed it until my 1st dance was over because i was watching the people running in to get dispelled

so i had to press flag before 2nd dance

massive RIP

[bleak wind]

shameless

[cyan lava]

Is sub the least played spec now

I think so right

[coarse agate]

Hey, anyone else noticed that Tricks is causing pulls from crazy far away in SoB?

[jaunty heath]

Can you make shuriken torando 45 sec cd @azure rock

now that we're a 1:30 class

[wind canopy]

Shouldn't ping him like that

[jaunty heath]

oh well too late

[random hare]

Delete the ping

Pinging devs isn’t allowed here

<@&224906552333697025>

It’s not ur first time pinging him

[restive briar]

Is there a good way to stop myself spamming my symbols by accident? I notice that sometimes I spam the button too much and it just sends all of my charges and I feel sad :(

[molten citrus]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[molten citrus]

use that macro

[restive briar]

Once again you have saved my life Trickz, I will not forget this

[haughty mural]

You could just delete it..

[vale pine]

yes, please don't randomly ping devs. They are already not very active in discord and pinging them without good reason makes it less likely for them to react.

[steel zinc]

Don't do it idk your not even 2 months here ...

[tribal blade]

is it ok if i ping you

[steel zinc]

There are certain scenarios where you can send double symbols in a dance to get more supercharges.
Like forced planned boss downtime

[tribal blade]

you can also hit a symbols for supercharger stacks if you know you're gonna have a lot of downtime in M+ and will cap on stacks

but it needs to be quite a long time, like waiting for the 2nd boss in CoT

[steel zinc]

Yup. Also this is what makes sub great. Feelcraft and experience

[warm veldt]

it's actually relatively common in M+

I cant think of a dungeon where im not overinvesting in multiple packs because of downtime / how CDs need to line up for other pulls

[steel zinc]

Highly depends on if we have a first dance

[warm veldt]

but that's more relevant in high keys

[viral phoenix]

dabbled in the dark arts of assassination on first queen kill before realizing my destiny lies elsewhere. (Being assigned first portal on 2nd ad platform if ur playing sin is for sure a swap to sub angle)

[vale pine]

can ping me any time

[haughty mural]

you can also ping me if you feel like pinging

[dry plank]

Only prophet?

[tribal blade]

got it, permission to ping you every day nonstop now 🙂

[tribal blade]

huge!

[haughty mural]

[vale pine]

haha, no anyone can^^

[dense mountain]

around how much time left on the 2nd shadow dance cd left can i send the flag and the CD reduction will have it up in time. or is this not realistic because i should go into the flag with 2 dances fully ready?

[paper stirrup]

Sub buffs when?

[tulip gorge]

why would sub get buffed lmao

[haughty mural]

me thinks the question should be: sub nerfs when ?

[tulip gorge]

currently it looks to be hidden op

[dense mountain]

ty king 👑

also im trying to understand, but what talents does the first evic proc that we use it first in ST opener before getting the rupture up?

[alpine wraith]

the slice and dice

[dense mountain]

oh okay i thought it would be more than that lol...

[cloud rover]

i mean

SND is pretty important

[dense mountain]

also i sorry for rapid fire noob questions, but how do i get flawless form. like i see that coup gives it, but is that the only way to get it up it feels like i have it up very often

[haughty mural]

UB procs and Sectec granting flawless

[dense mountain]

ohh ub procs it that makes sense, and my sec tec makes it able to be refreshed so its basically always up inside cds. i get it now. Thank you very much.

oh yeah does the radius of secret technique grow with mob hitbox size, or is it just static and hits around the mobs center?

[tepid trellis]

its two clones that spawn next to you

so its more about how you yourself is positioned

[vale pine]

bugfies should end up as buffs, so no need for extra buffs

[random hare]

Hello

This is me

The first fotm sub reroller of 11.1

[haughty mural]

oh no

[random hare]

yes yes

Sub big dam

[random hare]

[random hare]

Looks like a dick

[dense mountain]

ooo thats awsome, does nimble flurry work the same way, or is that more akin to caustic spatter?

[random hare]

Idk if u guys noticed btw

This ptr is all about bug fixes

Interesting

They’re actually fixing a lot of fucking bugs

[tepid trellis]

same way around your character

its like BF

[haughty mural]

i appreciate you being here zeross

but i pray to god that this channel will not get flooded with fotm rerollers :3

[graceful matrix]

sub > enh?

[finite carbon]

[vestal escarp]

You're bandwagoning on the wrong bus zeross

[finite carbon]

i have insider info

sub meta inc

im ready

[haughty mural]

was about to write "but you are red"

[random hare]

It already is meta on ptr

It’s doing live enh dps on ptr

[keen dome]

Sub being meta would be scary

[minor trout]

As trickster do I still want to spread ruptures?

[alpine wraith]

yea sub after bug fixes is quite decent

and that is with tier set bugged

we will be prime real state for motherlode

[upper rock]

im very confused on what embelishments to use for m+

[finite carbon]

Don’t spread lies

I’ve always been blue

[alpine wraith]

cant escape the allegations

[keen dome]

Whichever you want. Just sim and see. They're all really close.

[upper rock]

im currently using the darkmoon sigil and the empowerement for it but idk haha

[keen dome]

Yeah I run ascension + patch. They're all whatever and so close that I think variance within your play matters more

You can sim them all and see which competes the best but I wouldn't worry

[alpine wraith]

if you only play m+ the vers one is the best just dont get hit so it does not drop

for raid it is whatever

[tulip gorge]

Please tell me ds is not the meta for m+

[lean flax]

Can someone tell me where i can read all the sub bugfixes in ptr?

[random hare]

@vale pine we play shuriken tornado in ptr?

or no?

[alpine wraith]

you can but if you mess it up you will do less dmg

it is used outside cds to get cdr or ruptures up

[random hare]

what do i drop

?

wait i cant use it in flag?

[alpine wraith]

you can but you will do less dmg

[tepid trellis]

they arent nice enough to us to put those in blue posts, so only through testing stuff ourselves, can see the pin in here for what we have found

[tepid trellis]

more mass AoE for less low target / boss dmg

[alpine wraith]

you lose dmg in cds mostly because of shadowcraft but using symbols later to not have it proc is also less dmg

so it is a lose lose situation

so best use is to put 8 ruptures

or just to get cdr before a dance or to get sec tech earlier after cds

[vale pine]

not rly, tornado seems not great

[tepid trellis]

its decent for mass AoE burst, but anything outside of that its just an horrible outdated ability

[alpine wraith]

you do more mass aoe by changing mark and proccing witness while in cds kekw

just gotta remember to change mark at 2 if you are about to proc shadowcraft

oh man what a mess

[barren wolf]

🤨

[random hare]

like

do we play trickster still

on ptr

[tepid trellis]

thinking anybody wanna touch DS AoE with a ten footpole

kekw

[alpine wraith]

trickster is nicer to play with

i would not play the DS monstruosity

even if it is better

[random hare]

i mean i dont mind DS

been playing it all tier on assass

[alpine wraith]

oh you would it is degen behaviour

[random hare]

trickster is better actually because of 1 hr tricks forgot about that

[tepid trellis]

you on purpose strike new targets

to never proc DN

very good

very nice

amazing design

[random hare]

yea i mean the design is bad

[alpine wraith]

1/10 design will suffer making a guide for it

i kinda have it ready for like 2 weeks already but i dont really want to publish it

maybe when patch is closer so it flies undercover and no one notices

[tepid trellis]

Guide for DS AoE
strike every 2nd finisher on a new target to commit cbt to yourself

[alpine wraith]

and remember to change target and also if you ahve shadowcraft ready do it with 2 marks

zzzzzzzzzz

[hazy breach]

Are people playing with s1 tier set or just rawdogging without a useful tierset

[random hare]

no idea

[jaunty umbra]

casual was playing with s2 tset

[hazy breach]

Ye so basically no tier set

[random hare]

does the dmg bonus like not work at all?

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[tepid trellis]

tldr: pretty much yes

[random hare]

https://tenor.com/view/aintnoway-gif-27058877

[lilac stag]

Sub DS AOE gameplay or outlaw?

[tepid trellis]

both

[lilac stag]

I had a nightmare that it was an outlaw tier

[upper narwhal]

just make DN work with Black Powder and this whole cringe gameplay loop disappears

[tepid trellis]

no

just remove DS

[upper narwhal]

but the LORE

[tepid trellis]

the whole locked to 1 target as a mark

is outdated af

they want the funnel fantasy

but they are too god damn scared to actually bring it back so it makes sense

[lilac stag]

Fuck the lore. Our lore is we’re purple.

[upper narwhal]

it's pretty shit that Outlaw has 1 unplayable Hero Talent and Sub has 1 bad to play Hero Talent

[lilac stag]

Welcome to most classes

[tepid trellis]

assa also has a not playable one

fcking fatebound

[upper narwhal]

I mean Fatebound is playable

[tepid trellis]

dogshit untop of sogshit

[upper narwhal]

fatebound is passive rng gamba

it's better than being tied to a nonfunctional spell

[tepid trellis]

that doesent work when you introduce more than 1 target

10/10 design

[upper narwhal]

🙂

[tribal blade]

isn't it amazing what happens when a class has the least dev time before an expac launches

what an experience that was

[upper narwhal]

hero talents were supposed to be the expansion defining feature btw 🙂

[tribal blade]

they literally last minuted rogue

and had to spend all the rest of the dev time after half cooking the trees to fix everything

my favorite was when a guildie who used to raid with us came back to wow midway through this season

he played his sin rogue and after a few days whispered me with "WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH DS, I HATE THIS SO MUCH"

[upper narwhal]

I think i have stockholm syndrome with Assa DS cuz I forced my self to get used to it

it's shit but not shit

idk

hate DSM

[tribal blade]

well at least it feels good to play DS sin if you get used to being locked to 1 target

because the tree works very well with sin

but overall the entire playstyle of DS is just miserable

[upper narwhal]

Assa would feel too simple if you weren't managing the mark, but sometimes managing the mark is just hell

[tribal blade]

i think sin has enough going on in aoe to not be overly simple

for ST yeah it would be a bit simple

but that's just sin, it's never been complicated

[upper narwhal]

any time you need to target swap you wish Deathstalker didn't exist

[tribal blade]

last boss of NW as sin

is just horrendous

[upper narwhal]

getting 1v1'd by the ad if you're sent dowjn without Dn

[haughty mural]

Oh yea

That’s a horrible boss

[tribal blade]

i like the concept of DS, but the execution is horrible

[upper narwhal]

had to stop playing DS on Silken Court prog it was too tilting

went Sub

[tribal blade]

lol yeah there was 0 shot i was gonna play DS on court

when you can just play sub, have cds for every amp, take less damage and swap targets freely

the only real downside to playing sub on court was using transmitter

but with good preplanning it wasn't an issue

[upper narwhal]

thank god it's not a minigame trinket next patch

[tribal blade]

i'm very much looking forward to just press the trinky do dam

[tepid trellis]

DS assa court is easy tho

[tribal blade]

i actually haven't tried it

[tepid trellis]

you swap the mark at the same time every time

[tribal blade]

mmmm makes sense

considering the timing on the fight is quite static

[tepid trellis]

exactly

[haughty mural]

Transmitter can be horrible in m+ aswell when your pug tank is doing random stuff

[tribal blade]

yeah you kind of need to read his mind

the worst is popping it and then the tank decides to pull the pack away for no reason

[haughty mural]

Yea

Or he randomly decides to turn cleavers around where you need to collect your things

Also fun

[tribal blade]

haha i died last week in DB to picking up transmitter in a pull with a billion frontals after 1st boss

good fun

i don't think i actually walked into a frontal, i just walked into one of the mob's hit boxes

same difference

[haughty mural]

Been there

„Yo rogue just stand still wtf“

[tribal blade]

btw if i have to listen to some of my guildies who are ranged talk about how easy transmitter is to use

[haughty mural]

Ya thanks

[haughty mural]

Exactly a friend of mine the other day

[tribal blade]

it's infuriating

yeah, ofc it's chill when you have wide open space

[haughty mural]

Just blink 4head

[tribal blade]

at least the melee on my raid team who use it are like "i feel your pain" haha

i got a whisper from a guildie warr who started using it this week

[leaden prairie]

the funny thing is that they always remove these kind of stuffs

but then not really

[tribal blade]

about how he was completely losing it under bosses during court

[leaden prairie]

like outlaw got bte as a buff

[tribal blade]

give

we needs it

[leaden prairie]

but then next tier they create ds

[haughty mural]

Flag on ourselves would also be great

[leaden prairie]

its weird dude

flag doesnmt matter tho

[random hare]

its not realz

that made ds

[leaden prairie]

do you even need to stay on flag

[random hare]

its that simple

[leaden prairie]

• its just a quick cd

[tribal blade]

at least flag it doesn't matter which target you put it on as long as it lives the duration

[random hare]

u dont even need to target ur deathmark

[haughty mural]

That’s true yes

[random hare]

just deathstalker

[random hare]

well u have to because of kingsbane

[leaden prairie]

well you need to target kb so

[tribal blade]

i doubt they ever make the mark a self buff

[random hare]

ye

impossible

its good design i like it for sin

idk how it plays on sub tho

[tribal blade]

"lore" and stuff

[random hare]

singular focus is nice

[tribal blade]

it's pretty trash, you have to evis in aoe

[leaden prairie]

how is it good design

its just an annoyance

[tribal blade]

and evis does 0 aoe as sub

[leaden prairie]

would be the same shit if it was a buff

[random hare]

very nice funnel talent

i like funnel

reminds me of s2 SL sub

[leaden prairie]

it can still funnel as a buff

you like what it does

[random hare]

well how would it be ur mark if the mark is on urself

[leaden prairie]

im askinfg if you like how it plays

[tribal blade]

DS also has the issue of having way less cdr

[leaden prairie]

your target?

[random hare]

then it wouldn't be much of a "mark"

same way hunter's mark works

[leaden prairie]

do you hink bte make sense?

[random hare]

well it increases 20% crit chance

it rly isn't a mark ability

big difference

[leaden prairie]

you shot in between the eyes of the guy

to make it take more damage

[vale pine]

deathstalker plays worse on sub, so idk if thats a big discussion worth having

[leaden prairie]

lore wise it ameks more sense to be a debuff

but a debuff is just annoying

[random hare]

i mean its the same as flagellation how would it increase ur aoe if ur targetting 1 player?

it isn't a mark

they can just rename it idc but it wont have singular focus anymore

[haughty mural]

Well hunters mark is free to reapply and has a reduced gcd

[leaden prairie]

why not

[random hare]

im not asking by the way mark works oz guy

[leaden prairie]

"all the damage goes to your target"

[lilac stag]

And is useless outside of bosses

[random hare]

just how it functions

[leaden prairie]

thats it

[haughty mural]

Exactly

[leaden prairie]

instead of your makred mob

[random hare]

idk i never saw any ability doing that

[lilac stag]

Combo

Pump and dumb

[random hare]

what combo

[leaden prairie]

wasnt it how s2 outlaw tier set worked

it was all the damage you do goes on your target

[random hare]

no idea

[leaden prairie]

im telling you

[random hare]

i just never saw a "mark" specific ability be on the player as a buff

it just doesnt make sense to mark urself to dmg another mob from ur own mark

[leaden prairie]

thats litteraly bte

[random hare]

its just what mark means

[leaden prairie]

so idc much

when it provide bad gameplay

[random hare]

well if u mean how bte functions yea but it isnt called mark

[leaden prairie]

i think we can ignore some lore things

[tribal blade]

how about if they changed DS from "you mark your target" to "you focus your attacks on your prey"

[random hare]

mark isn't lore tho its more of how its called and what its supposed to do being called "mark'

they can redesign it

but

yea

that

but

u cant call it mark anymore

but ye they can easily fix

[tribal blade]

yeah just completely ditch mark

and make it a self buff i guess

and then all the stuff from the DS tree are things you apply to your current target

so the mark damage, and hunt them down, singular focus, etc etc

i dunno how big a change that is for them to do, it sounds like a bit

considering how they couldn't even get mark to work properly lol

[hollow spear]

Maybe your target updates by using an ability on it

[tepid trellis]

"funnel"

[hollow spear]

Kinda like caustic works

[leaden prairie]

ye but since its cyclic it wouldnt work

[hollow spear]

Nah, the buff stays on you

But some ds stuff needs a defined "target" to function

Like singular focus

[leaden prairie]

well it can just be your target

i dont see the issue

[hollow spear]

I could see the code getting krangled if it was just updating with you tabbing

[swift tinsel]

its just reversed spriest aoe

which isn't krangled

[leaden prairie]

xd

[hollow spear]

But I mean, how realistic is it anyways that they move from a debuff to a buff

[leaden prairie]

they did it for bte

[swift tinsel]

bte

[hollow spear]

Pretty much 0

I got my money on that not changing until 12.0

At least

[vestal escarp]

😭😭 gdmi fucking zac and zeross yapping here

[tribal blade]

it would require way more work than buffing stuff

[tribal blade]

haha the question of if sub might be banging next tier

[swift tinsel]

ds needs mechanical work vs buffing/nerfing

[tribal blade]

something blizz has not demonstrated they want to do with rogue much this expac

[swift tinsel]

right, earliest 11.2 but probably not until 12

if at all

[vestal escarp]

?? For keys?

[swift tinsel]

mage needs too much atm

gotta let enh run rampant for another season too

[tribal blade]

for everything, the tier set is kinda crazy numbers

[swift tinsel]

and rework hunter hero/spec trees

the new spriest

[jolly pasture]

They will do 2 more shaman reworks and atleast 1 mage and ret rework before they change rogue in a meaningful way

[leaden prairie]

i mean sub damage profile is good

if its tuned high enough

higher than assa

[random hare]

GUYS

I NEED

[vestal escarp]

You think the spec that has to hold dmg for half a minute and leave mobs at 5% hanging around will be played over sin?

[random hare]

TO PLAY PTR

[tribal blade]

which might possibly happen if the tier works as intended

[random hare]

BUT NO ONE IS QUEUEING

OMG

[leaden prairie]

?

wdym

[random hare]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[swift tinsel]

if they fix shadow amp and keep buffs where they are from the 2/4pc I could see us taking over

[jolly pasture]

Alternatively they nerf sin and their bullshit bf knockoff thats more op than original bf

[swift tinsel]

or

softcap bf and nimble flurry

[leaden prairie]

can soft cap bf all you want

outlaw still wont be meta over sin and sub in current state lol

[vestal escarp]

?

[leaden prairie]

i wouldnt worry

[leaden prairie]

use words

[random hare]

🍌 zacro 🧢 — Today at 6:04 PM
can soft cap bf all you want

kk i will

[jolly pasture]

Nah bro dont soft cap nimble, we dont want all 3 to be outlaw except with good dmg profile

[swift tinsel]

hard caps are weird

[vestal escarp]

? It's you who replied with a question mark

[leaden prairie]

ye explain what you meant

i said

wdym

[random hare]

yea wdym?

[leaden prairie]

like wdymn

[random hare]

wdym him up zac

[leaden prairie]

its just a questrion

simple question

maybe im missing some stuffs about sub you know

so like

wdyum ?

[tribal blade]

np

[vestal escarp]

Oh nvm then

As sub you have to hold one charge of sod before flag

To have two in flag

[leaden prairie]

I mean assa ain't doing much damage outside of CDs either tho

I don't think that has stopped anyone before

[tepid trellis]

only about 20x more than sub

[random hare]

POTGEUIA;HGKLNJG;RGNARO;IJFGKLVNHFDAMVAUJNHKLGR,AGHOUNR;EJL

BROTHER

[tribal blade]

sub outside cds you're being beat by the tank

[random hare]

the best ptr player

has no enchants and no gems

[tepid trellis]

disc priest does more dmg

than sub outside of cds

[tribal blade]

disgusting

the way i frame it to myself is "i'm banking all this karma to put into my next cd set"

so i don't start freaking out

[leaden prairie]

Idk

I'm ngl Im not sure I see the issue

[tepid trellis]

but that downside wont really matter

if the rest is tuned high enouhg

[leaden prairie]

End of packs as assa enhance are also.mega cringe

The enh is holding 10 tempest like a mf

[vestal escarp]

Yeah sorry zac my bad you will realize soon enough as you play some sub

[leaden prairie]

Hitting like a wet noodle

And you as assa have no energy left

[tribal blade]

it's kind of shocking

[leaden prairie]

Doing z dps

[vestal escarp]

Are we sure? I dont see it as a numbers problem

[tribal blade]

sub is shockingly bad outside cds

also energy regen feels pretty bad too 😦

[tepid trellis]

its quite literally a numbers issue

if you make up for it in other ways

[vestal escarp]

Like tier set is centerd around dance which are even less casts than sod

[tepid trellis]

it wont matter

[tribal blade]

60% shadow damage in dance

my god

[leaden prairie]

When you say outside cds

You mean outside cds

It outside dance

[vestal escarp]

Outside dance or sod

[leaden prairie]

Ye but I mean

Idk this seems so irrelevant to me

Like the damage was done before

In the end you did the damage

[tepid trellis]

its the pooling of cds thats the "problem"

[leaden prairie]

But as long as you aren't sitting waiting not sending your cds it doesn't matter no?

If everything starts coming back up then you are losing time on cds

But if that's not the case

Nothing is lost

Damage is just shifted around

Im not sure that matters but maybe I'm delusional

[tepid trellis]

thats sub on 8 targets outside of dance

assa

[vestal escarp]

And even if youre agressive with sending you either lose overall dmg cause you send on low hp screw up subsequent flag windows

[leaden prairie]

I mean tbf rn assa is tuned so high you would need to buff sub by like 50% to compete on 8 targets

But in the end if the raw damage is the same

[vestal escarp]

As i said it will be very clear as soon as you try it

[leaden prairie]

But idk

[tepid trellis]

sub bursts more, it just doesent do anything outside of that

[vestal escarp]

Yeah sub has even virtually less ramp

[tepid trellis]

but hopefully with decent tuning

[vestal escarp]

And bursts for more

[tepid trellis]

it wont matter

much

[leaden prairie]

It's an issue it you start getting your 1min30 before next pack sure but that won't ever be a thing

Maybe

Maybe long weird packs idk

[vestal escarp]

Erm, it is

[leaden prairie]

I don't see much of that happening tbf

I can't think of a 1min 30 pack rn

[tepid trellis]

packs dont really last 1min30

they are more like 45

[vestal escarp]

It's the only thing holdit it back from being played at the same level as sin

[leaden prairie]

Sometimes you do long chains but

That's different

[leaden prairie]

What

That and maybe the fact sin does much more damage

Slight difference

[tepid trellis]

what hold sub back is the fact that sin just does more dmg

almost same burst

and higher outside of cd dmg

its just tuned alot better

[vestal escarp]

Yeah its a profile matter

[tepid trellis]

assa does enough AoE to warrant it to bring

even though it does fucking tank dmg on bosses

[swift tinsel]

can't wait to see our damage outside of dance in aoe with s2 tier

[vestal escarp]

And that thing wont change with broken af tier set, given that it stays that way

[upper narwhal]

the main advantage of Sub is not looking pathetic on bosses

[leaden prairie]

Eh I don't see it

[tepid trellis]

its purely a numbers issue

[leaden prairie]

It's not a damage profile issue

Idk

Will see

The thing you could argue tho

Is that it's a 1min30 cd profile

Which idk how that works

[tepid trellis]

assa single target

[leaden prairie]

That would be a damage profile issue potentially

[tepid trellis]

sub xD

[leaden prairie]

Like idk if it could cause issue but maybe

[tepid trellis]

and thats with sub doing like 450k more

in total

[leaden prairie]

With how routing is around 2 mins etc

[tepid trellis]

just comes down to dungeon design and what else looks to be meta

like yeah if you pair it up with 2 other 2min classes

then yeh it will suck

but with more flexible classes it will do very good

[vestal escarp]

Yes but we're saying the same thing in two different ways, the pooling really tanks your overall dps in keys because it tends to last more than 25s contrary to raid ofc it witll be at the end which spec does more overall but im saying that subs one will always be stunted unless planets align or stuff is silly overtuned

[tepid trellis]

im saying the lack of dmg on finishing off mobs

wont matter

if you are tuned good elsewhere

same thing used to happen to old sub when the mob count got low in a pull

and it was still played

[upper narwhal]

Sub can't finish off a pack but it can get a pack low very quickly

kinda balances it's self out

[vestal escarp]

It's the same thing that happens to sin with enha

Enha hold tempest cause sin is doing dmg as long as it's cycling dn

[leaden prairie]

I mean sin aintr doing damage at end of packs tho

[vestal escarp]

But enha can afford it cause its broken

[leaden prairie]

Like it can last forever

[tepid trellis]

just dont have dungeons like mist

perma chain pull

frfr

never low target count

always gas

[random hare]

@tepid trellis

i think im missing something

idk what

[leaden prairie]

a brain

[tepid trellis]

hands

[tepid trellis]

[random hare]

nah i know how to play sub i just dont know what im supposed to do

like

i eviscerate always?

and ambush?

[tepid trellis]

no

[leaden prairie]

casual was plauing ds btw

[tepid trellis]

xD

[random hare]

was he

[tepid trellis]

at certain target counts you BP

[leaden prairie]

ye

[vestal escarp]

[tepid trellis]

think its 2 for DS and 5 for Trickster

iirc

[random hare]

when do i ss?

[tepid trellis]

ss?

which one of em

[vestal escarp]

5 for trickster but pack has to have fw

[tepid trellis]

you always wanna go Strike as first builder

[random hare]

shuriken storm

[tepid trellis]

into Storm as 2nd

then after just strikes

[random hare]

ye but in aoe

[tepid trellis]

that is for AoE

[random hare]

at how many targets do i ignore ignore backstab

and press storm

[tepid trellis]

your 2nd rotten needs to be consumed for FW

when ever you have nimble up

[random hare]

ye but when do i shuriken storm

[tepid trellis]

I JUST TOLD YOU

[random hare]

without dance

[vestal escarp]

At 2

[random hare]

there

[vestal escarp]

Lmao

[random hare]

ty

[vestal escarp]

Lmaoooo

[random hare]

idk i was getting math equation replies

[molten citrus]

"i know how to play sub"

[random hare]

im not that smart

[molten citrus]

[random hare]

well trickz

sub changes alot

the way it works always stays the same

[vestal escarp]

(it doesnt at all)

[molten citrus]

i'm just poking fun at you

[random hare]

wdym we never ambushed on aoe before

xd

[tepid trellis]

only the last 7 months

[bleak wind]

you did once with premed

[vestal escarp]

Yeah but thats now new anymore

[tepid trellis]

so not false

[random hare]

7 months is tww

[vestal escarp]

7 months old tech

[random hare]

no one played tww

sub

[tepid trellis]

thats actually true

[random hare]

because it sucked balls

[tepid trellis]

SL+DF memories right there

[random hare]

ye once only and it was only 5 targets for snd too

[molten citrus]

was better than outlaw

[random hare]

i think

something liek that

above 5 it wasn't worth

iirc

[molten citrus]

[vestal escarp]

Before amirdrassil yes cause even strike was weak

[random hare]

it always was weak wdym

premed was always like that

it never buffed ambush dmg