subtlety

[hazy breach]

4p does currently not increase any form of shadow damage

[hardy snow]

even if it does not work for the whole ptr, it will work on live

[hazy breach]

But presumably it will increase plague damage yes

[spark tusk]

My barometer for "things that will surely happen" has been so catastrophically off about the world lately that I don't even know anymore.

But let's hope

[uneven scarab]

I would hope the tier set is working before it makes it to live

[hardy snow]

idk about your philosophy but it will happen

simply like that

[spark tusk]

[hazy breach]

I mean ye, question is if its gonna work on everything

Like the 2p currently buffs finisher damage yes

But not shadowed finishers

[hardy snow]

?

[hazy breach]

Thats an example of something thats way less likely to be fixed

[hardy snow]

what do you mean by not buff shadowed finishers?

[swift tinsel]

it doesn't increase their damage

[hazy breach]

It does not buff shadowed finishers

[hardy snow]

should it?

[swift tinsel]

even though that separate hit can reset stacks

[hazy breach]

3% more damage only applies to the physical part

Yes

[uneven scarab]

It quite likely should yea

[hardy snow]

shouldn't shadowed just a percentage of their physical ones?

[hazy breach]

Since most other effects in the game do, and shadowed finishers says its based on the physical hit

[hazy breach]

Its not

[swift tinsel]

it can independently crit

[hardy snow]

what?

[swift tinsel]

so its its own thing

[hazy breach]

Its its own spell

That doesnt work with a bunch of things

Like darkest night for example

Only works on the physical part

[uneven scarab]

[hazy breach]

But also follow the blood, symbolic victory and cold blood (i think cb was fixed on ptr though)

[hardy snow]

not sure about that, at least my record shows good crit shadowed damage instance sort of matching the max crit physical ones.

[hazy breach]

Those only buff the phys part (or cb used to only buff the shadow part)

[hardy snow]

if the max physical instance and max shadowed one matches, idk what does it mean by not working on it.

[hazy breach]

What

If you do an eviscerate and look at how much damage the shadowed eviscerate is doing in relation to the physical part it should baseline be ~43%, and then its increased by shadow amps

With darkest night up, its about 30% including the amps, so should be like 27% without

[vale pine]

i think they should move back to combine damage events again to avoid these problems

[hazy breach]

Ye ofc

Seperating them makes it feel worse and creates tons of bugs

[vale pine]

the same bugs and problems are present in every update around the same elements

[spark tusk]

The numbers on sectec if combined

[hardy snow]

max 3751859 max shadow 1178218

[uneven scarab]

[hardy snow]

idk what do you mean by not working with DN

you can just do it now

[hazy breach]

Ye its not 30% baseline

Its 43%

Because its not reduced by armor

It does 30% of the unmitigated physical hit

Which is 43% of the number you see ingame

So when its 31% like you showed above, that means it does not work

[hardy snow]

it's 30% and it says 30%

idk what needs to complain about

[hazy breach]

Please read my messages

[hardy snow]

tbh

i read and i said that

[hazy breach]

Try one without darkest night

[uneven scarab]

I dont think ur understanding lament

[hazy breach]

Is it 30%?

You OBVIOUSLY did not read

[spark tusk]

Just now

that's a DN evis

[hazy breach]

Now do one without DN

[hardy snow]

i read and i simply think it does not need to be that complex
total physical evis is 32.7% and shadowed is 9.9%, in total it consists of 30%.
idk what your theory is but it does 30%

[hazy breach]

Do one without DN lament

Tell me

Is it 30%

[spark tusk]

[hardy snow]

it does 30% and it reads 30%, why it is not 30% like you want

[hazy breach]

Brother

Do one without DN

Ye the problem is that the tooltips of wow are horrendously inaccurate

And it doesnt do 30% of the final hit

Like i siad

It does 30% of the unmitigated, which is roughly 43% of the damage you'd see in logs

So DN doing 30% means its literally doing 60% less than its supposed to

[spark tusk]

@hardy snow #subtlety message This is a normal evis, do you think this is too high and a bug? (It's not)

[hazy breach]

AKA not working

[hardy snow]

i dont think if it should read in a particular way as it now consisting of 30% while it should be read in a different way so it does 43% instead

if it does 43% instead, maybe the tooltip will then be 43%, or something.
bottom line, im not complaining about it.

[spark tusk]

A baseline right now is doing 43%. That's because eviscerate is reduced by armor, but the shadow portion is not, so the baseline pre-armor reduction amount is 30% (like the talent reads)

But because of armor, that reduces eviscerate's damage and makes the shadow damage look higher

[hardy snow]

yea, that's a very fine way to understand it.

[spark tusk]

even though the baseline is 30%

But

[hardy snow]

but it also does its own crit and things

[spark tusk]

you'd expect that that dynamic to extend to Darkest Night, right?

[hardy snow]

like the coup de grace, does it own crit thing

[plush roost]

Bro I'm having an aneurism reading this

[hardy snow]

we dont know how it should work

[spark tusk]

Darkest night shouldn't change that dynamic, A DN Eviscerate should have the SAME ratio of 43%

Because nothing about darkest night changes the armor factor

[uneven scarab]

We actually do know how it should work lol

[spark tusk]

However, clearly, that doesn't happen, a darkest night's ratio is ~27%#subtlety message

as you see here

that's what we mean when we say it doesn't work

[alpine wraith]

yea i mean it is the diff between what it says on tooltip(imagine trusting blizz on that one) and then what happens

and coup is even funnier

[spark tusk]

god damnit

You made me go deathstalker

[hazy breach]

We do know that its not supposed to work with shadowed finishers, because theyve fixed tons of other effects not working on them in the past, like finality, supercharger and current tier

[spark tusk]

to test this

going back to the real hero talent now

[alpine wraith]

yea enjoy trickster while it lasts

[uneven scarab]

Only so much time until we are forced into ds prison

[spark tusk]

[alpine wraith]

god fucken dammit i will get parried for a whole season

i will end some things

[uneven scarab]

[plush roost]

You guys mean DS heaven!

[spark tusk]

speak for yourself I'm a casual and can play whatever talents I want!

[high radish]

Do you think I should main outlaw? subtlety is pretty tense

[uneven scarab]

[plush roost]

Have you considered Ret?

[alpine wraith]

if you think sub is tense

outlaw would end you

as sub you literally only plan ahead

outlaw is like playing a ddr game

[plush roost]

I dont even plan ahead i just hit buttons

[keen dome]

HIgh5

[spark tusk]

You're asking the sub channel where we are die hard into this spec against all odds. So a bit of a biased place to ask this question :).

[plush roost]

Sub aint hard since 11.0.5

[spark tusk]

Also most people in any non-outlaw channel would say no to outlaw no matter what

[alpine wraith]

it is complicated not hard

and that makes people perform badly enough

[keen dome]

You should play the spec you enjoy the most. If you enjoy Outlaw more, absolutely.

[uneven scarab]

Once you get the cd windows down its pretty chill

[vale pine]

best is to play what you like the most, just try out everything and stick to what feels the most fun

[hardy snow]

because the thing is it can work in only one way but it shows different versions with bugs and those are not supposed to be fixed since this game is now a mess of bugs and they're just figuring out when the dps space has been filled.
like in the past when they decided not to fix NS due to no room for buff.
if it sits somewhere not totally out of place, im okay with that.
get one bug fixed would very much likely lead to some nerf somewhere

[plush roost]

Hardest part of sub for me is pressing symbols at 12 seconds of sec tec for good cdr

[alpine wraith]

not always but you can keep that one saved in your RAM

just in case

[plush roost]

If you argue that things should be bugged as to not get nerfed then I'd rather it just be fixed and nerfed ngl

[spark tusk]

Yes and they should fix the bugs and perform that nerf somewhere else

That's their job

What do you mean "not supposed"

[uneven scarab]

If they kept this mindset eventually every spec would turn into a jumbled mess that theyd never be able to fix

[spark tusk]

They are bugs, They are supposed to be fixed

[uneven scarab]

Yes

[spark tusk]

If that means it over-buffs us and we need to be nerfed somewehre else

that's fine

[plush roost]

Maybe they actually like keeping a terarium

[spark tusk]

That's blizzard's job

[plush roost]

And have all these bugs inside

Their little ecosystem

[uneven scarab]

We literally just got buffed from bug fixes, as this entire discord channel has been asking for

[high radish]

Guys, I LOVE subtlety. I just sometimes flirt with the outlaw idea

[hardy snow]

we could argue that, now it is ptr and bugs should be fixed and we get a much better experience.
but the truth is they're now on agile dev, no time for small things ever.
their work list would be like a mile long and they only work on priorities now.
that's when you get devoured by some big thing like MS.

[uneven scarab]

Nothing wrong with both brother

i play all rogue specs

[spark tusk]

Then try outlaw, that's up to you (even if pirates are filthy)

[uneven scarab]

They’re all fun in their own way

[keen dome]

One of us, one of us, one of us. Purple team let's gooo

[spark tusk]

You're shifting to a different discussion of what they will do based on available resources and what will happen

[uneven scarab]

Purple team best team

[spark tusk]

So you're saying something different now

[hardy snow]

exactly, and that's why it will almost never get fixed, i mean certain bugs

[spark tusk]

That's a different conversation

[hardy snow]

im saying the same thing. as long as it sits somewhere not totally out of place, im not complaining about that.

[keen dome]

I'm confused at this conversation but considering we just had a few long-term bugs fixed.. Doesn't that prove they can and will be fixing stuff?

[vale pine]

i wouldn't worry about tunig much atm

[hardy snow]

for example, they would probably never fix RS interaction with SC

[spark tusk]

BUDDY

[plush roost]

They did

[spark tusk]

HAVE WE GOT NEWS

[plush roost]

Lol

[spark tusk]

FOR YOU

[vale pine]

That one seems fixed on ptr, but also needs more testing

[hardy snow]

then that's like the time they need

[uneven scarab]

[hardy snow]

if they actually fixed it correctly

last time they fixed tier so stacks can drop, but now it gets other bugs like shadeowed finishers all drop them

[keen dome]

Right but they've been fixing stuff.

So your point is just moot. They are fixing these things.

[hardy snow]

RS thing happened like how many years ago?

[spark tusk]

To be honest

I don't even know what the point is right now

[hardy snow]

X'max 2023 i think

two years now

[plush roost]

Argument to argue

[hardy snow]

and that's not even about dps space

that's a mechanism

[spark tusk]

The whole point that started this was "Shadowed finishers doesn't gain from several effects", Lament didn't understand what that mean, we explained it clearly, imo, now we're talking about how we shouldn't expect bugs to be fixed because of tuning implications? Despite the fact that they are being fixed on ptr?

[keen dome]

It was, arguably, a minor bug at best that while frustrating, is non-critical. Would it have been nice to have it fixed sooner? Ye. But it's most likely fixed now. Hell yeah, let's go.

[uneven scarab]

They fixed blades with tech and rs, arguably the two most talked about bugs in here

[keen dome]

Yeah

[hardy snow]

think about how low would be a shadowed finisher percentage thing.
like Eleem said it is a bug, okay, but hoping such thing or everything get fixed very soon is a very different question.
i mean ofc it would be very nice of him mentioning it, and i'd like to say tata to him.

[uneven scarab]

Couldn’t really ask for more rn

[spark tusk]

I mean it's non-critical in the same way that my wall not having a hole in it is non-critical from having punched it after the bug happening

So I mean yeah I don't HAVE to not have a hole in my wall

(I don't actually have a hole in my wall and I didn't punch my wall this was a joke)

[keen dome]

[hazy breach]

Getting a bugfix that buffs you by 3% and then getting a 3% nerf is imo absolutely way better than nothing happening at all

[plush roost]

Sure, you kicked a hole instead

[hazy breach]

Because spells should work the way you think they should based of the tooltip

[vale pine]

things should work as you expect

[hardy snow]

this is true, but also at the same time, it feels good, but no solid improvement.

[spark tusk]

I was onto you and now yo ufinally admit it, I know you're in my walls

[keen dome]

Tuning is also very easy to do. They can, after these fixes, aurabuff as needed. When stuff is working, it's easier to get a picture of where stuff is at.

[vale pine]

tuning is a diffrent story

also 3% is nothing in terms of dps

[hazy breach]

Wdym its literally an improvement

[plush roost]

Its comfy in here, good insulation.

[spark tusk]

I would characterize a bug fix

[hardy snow]

if dps has been filled, then the nerf counters the bug fix

[spark tusk]

to be the foundational example of a "Solid improvement"

[hardy snow]

where is the improvement

[spark tusk]

the bug is fixed

the foundation is solid

The concrete is poured

we aren't sitting on a foundation of sand

that's the improvement

Improvement does not mean dps improvement

[hardy snow]

but you're not standing higher, sand or concrete, same level

[keen dome]

It's not a bug anymore.

[plush roost]

Because when they apply different modifiers for trinkets and new talents and tier you can account for them correctly

[uneven scarab]

💯 💯 💯

[spark tusk]

I.... you 're standing securely

[hardy snow]

as long as there are enough sand, it is secure as well

[spark tusk]

Securely standing on a foundation vs standing on an empty foundation

is an improvement

[spark tusk]

It's not ????????????????????

What is happening right now

am I having a stroke?

[uneven scarab]

This guys never played Minecraft

[plush roost]

Fellas my house is sitting on sand next the ocean, while his is on concrete inland.

Why is my house sinking with the tide???

[hardy snow]

you're not falling anywhere when you stand on a beach, like concrete you put there for a same level

[keen dome]

what

[uneven scarab]

[keen dome]

I'm so confused.

[plush roost]

This is insane

Dont let this guy near a construction area jesus

[keen dome]

Fixing a bug is an improvement. Because the bug is fixed. It is no longer a bug. It is working as intended now. It wasn't working as intended before but now it is. It is functional. It wasn't functional, but it now is. It has moved from -1 to 0. This is an increase.

[tepid trellis]

2 words

Wave Erosion

[plush roost]

2 words
Bugfix DS

[spark tusk]

If you truly think this, Just know that I think you are incorrect and misguided and misunderstand what's going on here.

I'm inches away from assuming that you are just trolling and speaking in bad faith. I'm going to exit this conversation now before I get to that point though.

[keen dome]

Two words.

[hardy snow]

the point will grow anyway. leave or not. i planted it in your brains already.

[uneven scarab]

WHAT

[plush roost]

Guys the foundation of my meal is supposed to be flour, will this powdered sugar be a suitable replacement?

[keen dome]

Nah my brain is literal soup, ain't anything growing in here.

[spark tusk]

get your damn fingers away from my brains those are my brains I spent a lot of money on them and got the jars from a very reputable businessman

[hardy snow]

it happened for NS, if it happens now for shadowed finisher, I'll take it.
it is not bad faith. it is however a very different perspective that I enjoy the game the way it is, not being obsessed in how a bug should be fixed as long as it works to the end a very playable spec.
much less stress ngl.

[plush roost]

Can we pin this advanced wisdom

[hazy breach]

RS bug very playable

Multiple top ranked players refusing to play sub literally only because of that

[hardy snow]

yes, and it took two years for goodness.

[uneven scarab]

I don’t think anyone here is obsessed over any bugs they’d just like to see the spec they love in a better state lmfao

[spark tusk]

I have significantly more stress in my life if I were to be juggling 4 insecure income streams to live precariously on the edge

compared to 1 secure income stream

Even if the income level is the same

I'm getting pulled back in no

No I have to leave

[plush roost]

Stop it you're getting sucked in!

The brains?

The fingers!

[uneven scarab]

https://tenor.com/view/don't-leave-me-viralhog-stay-with-me-raccoon-holding-on-gif-13321851397787318239

[plush roost]

Hes fingering your walls!

[uneven scarab]

[spark tusk]

It's ok I have @cold badge in my walls he won't get anywhere near the brain chamber

[hardy snow]

im not saying if a bug fixed would be a bad thing. im taking nex level that fixed or not it could still be very viable if it stands as it is. they fixed it, good, maybe take years for them to do that. but if they dont, it's still totally okay. no expectation needed for that.

[uneven scarab]

When bugs actively ruin gameplay i think expecting something is understandable

If it gets fixed great if it doesnt then

[plush roost]

I think his point is the DN shadowed finisher bug doesn't really ruin gameplay

[hardy snow]

RS was ruining but shadowed finishers are not same type of ruining at all.

[uneven scarab]

yeah i more meant the rs bug

[hardy snow]

and tbh, i still have a WA for RS bug

[hazy breach]

Nobody is saying that it is

[hardy snow]

it gives me every rupture ticking time point so i know if SC would give me a delayed refill.

[hazy breach]

[hardy snow]

ruined by RS bug? top rank players? they should indeed work harder tbh.

[uneven scarab]

[keen dome]

THat's a very powerful garfmote

[lilac stag]

Welcome to rogue discord.

[uneven scarab]

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/love-gif-2608908229610963342

[hazy breach]

I think its wild to say that people should not care how the spec plays as long as the dps numbers are high, but thats just my opinion

[swift tinsel]

I'm firmly in the gameplay > numbers camp

[uneven scarab]

Always

[keen dome]

Don't need to play the spec if you one-tap the boss. But yeah, agreed. Gameplay -> numbies.

[uneven scarab]

Im pretty sure everyone here knows that as a sub player

[hazy breach]

Besides numbers always come anyway at some point during the season. Blizzard balancing typically ends up good

Despite the memes

[keen dome]

Ye. It's going to be a lot easier to adjust the specific tuning since it's all aura stuff anyway.

[lilac stag]

The gameplay should always be a priority

[keen dome]

So if you've got a good core gameplay cycle - then the damage numbers can be whatever. They are easier to twiddle the knobs on.

[swift tinsel]

I'm not playing 1% content so tuning is more or less w/e, as long as tuning isn't hilariously low idc

[lilac stag]

Fix gameplay. Bitch about Evis needing to be higher on details later.

[vale pine]

DF was a good example of numbers over gameplay

Gameplay first is always the best approach

[keen dome]

Making it feel good, and feel fun to press the buttons is always going to be the more challenging design space, too.

And then, once you've got it, you can make the numbers be whatever they need to be.

[swift tinsel]

praying for one big sectech number

[uneven scarab]

🙏

Please

[hardy snow]

actually i do not even dispaly combat damage numbers

[swift tinsel]

gotta go with the 3x size NiceDamage font

[keen dome]

I long for the big sectec. I dream of the big sectec. The massive crit. The damage bonaza. The good brain chemicals of the BIG NUMBERS.

[spark tusk]

Well, to be fair, one of Lament's points was that the RS bug (which impacts gameplay directly) is in a separate category from Shadowed Finishers (which does not affect gameplay, only numbers). If gameplay was the only focus, shadowed finishers bug is irrelevant.

My point was (and I think you agree with this) that regardless of gameplay, when the underlying factors that lead to the numbers are built off of unexpected behavior and bugs that are not in alignment with the way the game says it should work, your overall numbers are a facade and are built on a foundation of sand that could slip unexpectedly at any moment. When the bugs are fixed, changes are more understandable and secure. So even a focus on bugs which don't affect gameplay impacts the feeling we may have about where we stand, regardless of where the number sits.

If we're sitting at 2M DPS and all the bugs are fixed, vs 2M DPS but have a ton of bugs that bring us to that point, I'd much rather be in the first camp, and resources are well spent on blizzard's end to get us to that point.

[swift tinsel]

100% why I'm happy that this ptr cycle so far has been fixing stuff vs tuning, at least up to this point

[lilac stag]

They’re tuning already mate

[swift tinsel]

bc tuning will come with fixing stuff

[lilac stag]

20% ability buff isn’t fixing

fact is we don’t know when bugs got fixed vs deployed.

[keen dome]

I liked the typo

[lilac stag]

hugs not bugs

I’m so tired.

[void hound]

did we get anything or what is all this yapping about

[keen dome]

They fixed RS

[spark tusk]

(on ptr)

[void hound]

https://tenor.com/view/x3-gif-24301743

[hardy snow]

we would all rather the first camp, however it is irrelevant when it ends up at 2m.
Your statement of "your overall numbers are a facade and are built on a foundation of sand that could slip unexpectedly at any moment. When the bugs are fixed, changes are more understandable and secure." is very theoretical and not how they practice.
it is very understandable that we would like to see every bug got fixed, and at the same time, blizzard already showed how they tune things at the end of dev cycle and it usually gets to a comfortable point or they pick up some little things like last sin tier 4pc.
The imaginary of "slip" is quite a statement of fear of something bad happen and personally I deny that weak stance, with all due respect.
I however take the resulting shape of the spec and work it out through all hard content, even the RS bugs.

as long as it is well tuned.

[hardy snow]

it was for LE anyway. thank you for the play.

[spark tusk]

If it's irrelevant then why would you rather be in the first camp?

I'd like to understand why you think it is good to be in the first camp if you think it's irrelevant

[hardy snow]

because that would make me less wired.

[spark tusk]

And why is that not relevant?

[hardy snow]

more sociable.

[spark tusk]

I don't care about numbers, I don't fear the numbers slipping. I'm playing the spec regardless

[hardy snow]

because the numbers are not slipping...

[spark tusk]

Me being less wired is good, and that's what's relevant to me.

[hardy snow]

and that's why i said I'd like to be in the first. but if it is the second, it works the same for me as well.

[spark tusk]

I care less about where we land on the dps meters and more about using software that works the way it says it works. The latter is a virtue in its own right, for me, and it doesn't have to be for you.

That's why I care about being in the first camp, that is what is relevant to me.

[keen dome]

Same, I'd rather it all worked and we were there because it worked. Also, if we're at 2M in the latter anyway.. We're actively underperforming because, surely, if everything worked properly, it would be higher. No?

[hardy snow]

seeking truth is not a bad thing, not bad at all.
but when considering writing for example guides, simulation basics, or APL for simulation.
we are then not saying that should work like this and we later give sim a negative aura so it fits to numbers on live.
we adapt, and during that adaption, if it ends up the same, it works as it is.
I hope this could make a conclusion on this.

[spark tusk]

Well if everything worked properly and we were higher as a result, We may get tuned down (and I'm ok with that). The point is, though, that the tuning would be more reliable from blizzard's end because the spells actually function the way they should at that point

[keen dome]

A very good point, yeah. Something I would echo, too. If it's working as intended, then it can be modified and tuned as intended.

[lilac stag]

tldr. RS bug is cancer. Fix it. Tune later.

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[lilac stag]

back to bombs

[keen dome]

oh no

[void hound]

anything else besides RS getting fixed?

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[void hound]

sec tec working with shadow blades is nice

[vale pine]

surprising change

[keen dome]

[void hound]

you guys know what this means?

someone at the dev team does care

🥹

[vale pine]

yes

but lets see

[keen dome]

What if they're doing them by alphabetical order.

Sub is pretty far down the list..

[round latch]

[cold badge]

You don’t know me

[lilac stag]

Hi Quake

[round latch]

what i told my ex before breaking up

[astral axle]

Hi Quake

[scarlet trellis]

How sub lookin 11.1

[spark tusk]

Well considering RS bug fix seems to be on PTR, according to others here, that's great news for 11.1

[molten citrus]

the same

(with a couple bug fixes)

[spark tusk]

(Yes but performance wise also that, the same^)

[molten citrus]

i'm always surprised at how many people ask this question about specs so far before a season starts

[tepid trellis]

people are afraid of the unknown

[vale pine]

good, we got some bugfixes on the tier set and long standing bugs
Outside of that, nothing changed rly compared to current patch

[vale pine]

You would be surprised, i already got questions/dm's about the next patch before ptr was out

[round latch]

wise words

[tulip gorge]

guys how is sub looking in midnight?

[molten citrus]

yeah i saw a few before ptr even launched

[round latch]

some patience fam, hour and some minutes

[molten citrus]

idk why at this point, but it still surprises me lol

[vale pine]

I don't think there is any ill intend, people are just used to "instant access to information"

[molten citrus]

ofc

nothing wrong with it

[vale pine]

and often don't realize that the question is absurd at the point in time

other games are way easier to predict

[molten citrus]

i think maybe it's just the amount that gets me

[spark tusk]

I think if someone is asking this early that's fine, it's misguided and uninformed but it's not wrong to want to know and I get the impulse to ask. Just an opportunity to learn about how this game and tuning can work

[molten citrus]

probably happens in every class disc as well

[spark tusk]

almost certainly yeah

[vale pine]

e.g. the card game i played a big lately hachadino and eleem play too (the bazaar) is figured out in a few days most of the time. A lot of it is known by just reading the changelog, which is very diffrent compared to a more complex enviroment like wow

[molten citrus]

yeah it's understandable to want info as early as possible, especially if you want to commit to gearing a new class

[vale pine]

wow is also about time investment

a lot of the questions are probably just

[molten citrus]

one thing that bothers me is people who answer it as if they know how things will be when the patch launches

[vale pine]

"is it worth to invest time here"

[molten citrus]

(people saying outlaw is dog shit on repeat)

[vale pine]

i think outlaw can be good

and won't see good play rates

subtlety has a chance

but not if the design team keeps doing things like 10.2

then we get also in the outlaw zone

maybe it is a hot take but 10.2 was one of the worse things a developer can do if he wants people to play multiple specs

making one spec overly complicated to the point nobody bothers anymore while simultaniousely make it the best spec

all while nerfing the other specs so people don't feel like the want to test the spec

[pliant topaz]

idk about that one

[vale pine]

but forced to play it

[pliant topaz]

depends on game and audience

a lot of games, if the super complex class is also rewarding

a lot of people will want to play it

because at the end of the day, its a game, alot of competitive plyers want a way to show their skill expression and mastery

[round latch]

im gonna take my chances like i did more than a month ago with sub

[pliant topaz]

learning a difficutl class and being rewarded for it, is kinda a goal on its own in a lot of games

[vale pine]

i mean we all saw the amount of people complaining that they need to play sub

or at least i had many of them in my dm's on top of what we saw in the channel

[alpine wraith]

i mean it is always funny time

[pliant topaz]

thats fine, thats people being idiots.

[alpine wraith]

when sub even seems decent

[pliant topaz]

your job as a dev isnt to baby sit them

[alpine wraith]

but they are our idiots!

have to treat them well

otherwise instead of dozens we become handfuls

[pliant topaz]

its like people thinking oh i can only ever play azir mid if i wanna get to gold 3 because they played azir in LCK

and then if a dev decides to consider ^ comment, then the dev is an idiot

[vale pine]

i do think thats a diffrent point

the amount of people who ended up upset that they "needed" to switch away from assassiantion

outpaces the amount of people happy to have subtlety competitive or even as bets spec

is my point

[alpine wraith]

i mean same happens on hunter and warrior

[pliant topaz]

but thats giving into people being idiots though.

did anyone ever really HAVE to swtich?

not really

[vale pine]

thats true

but people fill obligated to switch if one is better

it is a longstanding problem of wow

[swift tinsel]

which is funny bc 99.9999% of players who think that aren't doing content where it actually matters

[vale pine]

i had very insulting discussions in this server even around this

where people ended up raging at me

[vestal escarp]

[vale pine]

because i stated that a 2 or 3% diffrence is not enough to say

"you are trolling your raid group if you don't play x"

[alpine wraith]

people love to gatekeep

[swift tinsel]

lol and those same people probably have bigger % variance in their own dps due to their gameplay, not tuning

[pliant topaz]

yeah idk anyone who says tha tand isnt litearlly in RWF or top 20 a tthe most is an idiot imo

and i dont waste my time dealing with idiots

[molten citrus]

the lengths people will go to for even .5% dps

[swift tinsel]

its all Dunning Kruger

[molten citrus]

is breathtaking lol

[vale pine]

It depends, it is difficult if the person stating things like this is someone with a higher level of trust from the community

[molten citrus]

like farming an m+ trinket for .5% dps

[vale pine]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[molten citrus]

just torturing yourself for no reason imo

[alpine wraith]

i mean when they are in rfw if they dont know how to play it is the same

remember we had the venth boomkin situation

or surrender

[hazy breach]

Its impossible to even see those 2-3% early on in the tier because theres just not enough data on wcl

Like in amirdrassil everybody was saying assa is completely and utterly busted (even after the first nerf)

Yet sub that was doing the same, people just ignored it

[alpine wraith]

sub secret op because we could move cds

[vale pine]

People: "I need to farm this passive trinket for 0.5% dps upgrade"
Me playing Undead:

[alpine wraith]

but people were too low iq

fuu inting without people knowing

[pliant topaz]

even then you could litearlly see people clearing bosses as sob early. like i think jundies cleared first 4-5 as sub

[hazy breach]

After the first nerf sub was doing roughly as much damage as assa was with PI

[vestal escarp]

Yeah fuu gigatrolling on god

[pliant topaz]

it was litearlly 3 sub parses first 2 weeks

[hazy breach]

And people said i was trolling for playing sub

[pliant topaz]

me jundies and 1 more guy

[vestal escarp]

Gift that man a faction change

[vale pine]

The problem is, many of these arguments become personal

[hazy breach]

And im like

[pliant topaz]

we were doing more than sin

no one cares

[alpine wraith]

time to report sub to the wcl mafia

[vale pine]

when its just about defusing polarizing situations

[alpine wraith]

so we get hidden

[spark tusk]

that's based you going for the og rogue rp?

[alpine wraith]

he just likes the animations!

[swift tinsel]

undead male also gets devilock hairstyle

[spark tusk]

Not the same as the classic animations aparently

[swift tinsel]

opop

[vale pine]

agree, but i think thats a big perception problem

[hazy breach]

Ye its almost always a perception problem rather than actual balance problem

[vale pine]

female ud has rly nice animations

[hazy breach]

Theres clearly exceptions where the balance is wonky

[swift tinsel]

do they still have the frontflip strike animation?

[molten citrus]

evis

[vale pine]

I also think some people who fight me to death over these polarizing statements realized over time

[swift tinsel]

ah yea thats right

looks super cool

[vale pine]

that small diffrences often don't change the outcome

[molten citrus]

when i pve'd a lot in SL i pretty much freely swapped between all 3 specs for raid/keys

and no one ever said anything to me except like once in a pug key

[swift tinsel]

SL was pretty good for that, outside of needing diff legos

as a rogue

[molten citrus]

"isn't X better?" "nah we got this gogo"

[lavish girder]

Wasn't there a time where sin was actually inting at the start of SL and the spec was buffed by something like 40% over 2 weeks? That's the one time I can remember. I think

[vale pine]

i remember some very old discussions i had where people would go as far as say you can't play a spec over what would be a diffrence like "playing TFD over weaponmaster" in mythic+

[lavish girder]

I can't remember the exact time that was though tbh

[molten citrus]

ye that was beginning of SL

when balance was actually sorta egregious

[swift tinsel]

anyone who thinks X class can't clear all but the highest content is on some shit

[vale pine]

Assassiantion was undertuned at the start of SL

then ended up as the best spec of the first tier

with many buffs in between

[lavish girder]

Yeah

[vale pine]

the irony

[lavish girder]

I just remember normal and heroic being out for a handful of weeks though and it wasn't addressed yet

so it was actually tilting to play

[bleak wind]

pretty sure that always ends up being the case, most underperforming specs tend to be at the top by the end and vice versa

[vale pine]

I don't think so

it was almost never the case during Legion and BfA

[molten citrus]

these days they do a much better job with balancing in the first place, usually

[vale pine]

and we had many seasons Rogue as a general was bad, with all 3 specs being mediocre

[molten citrus]

i don't think we've seen anything that comes close to sin's 40% aura buff

[vale pine]

where mostly only one was buffed to be relevant

[swift tinsel]

with the exception of enh this season I feel like it hasn't been too bad

[lavish girder]

eh, they nuked outlaw from orbit at the start of this patch, then essentially negated the nerf two weeks later again. it still happens sometimes

[vale pine]

I think balance is a difficult topic

And depending on who you ask its either the worse thing ever

or the best it ever was

[molten citrus]

ye but that was probably like ~5-10% max

[vale pine]

i feel there is little in between in opinions

[molten citrus]

idr what the changes were

[swift tinsel]

I think its something that is very easy to be hyperbolic about

[molten citrus]

mhmm

[vale pine]

e.g. i keep hearing how amazing the balance was and "the best ever been" since BfA every patch cycle

and i can for sure say it was partly a complete clownfiesta

[lavish girder]

I think it was a 12% nerf? then they buffed the tier finally then reverted the nerf.

it was larger than expected, put it that way

tbf it was all in thhe spawn of 2 weeeks go

[vale pine]

also wow being a pve game with lower difficulty over time, you can essentially play everything at one point in time

[lavish girder]

It is what it is

[vale pine]

simply because power from gear outscales the content

[bleak wind]

I don't remember when all 3 rogue specs were this close

which spec is 'best' currently is what people choose to play

[molten citrus]

there was a few times in SL when they were this close

closer even

[swift tinsel]

iirc s3 SL you could pretty much freely swap between the 3 and you were chillin

[molten citrus]

s2 as well

[vale pine]

S2 not S3 but yes

[swift tinsel]

ahyeah thats right

[vale pine]

rogue was bad down s3 sl iitc

*iirc

[hazy breach]

Late aberrus was pretty good no?

[swift tinsel]

I partially block out s2 bc of domination sockets

[molten citrus]

raid fights just weren't good for rogue

a few of em

anduin etc

[vale pine]

s2 SL was probably the perfect balance as all 3 ended up equally strong

s3 SL was extremely weird

[bleak wind]

wasn't outlaw kinda bad

[vale pine]

basically subtlety kept the power of Edge of night

[swift tinsel]

s3 was when we got those very-well executed tier sets

[vale pine]

which gave it a rly strong baseline

but scales like dogshit from tier and other things

you saw it in the raid world first

[molten citrus]

ye i played it on halondrus

one of my favorite progs ever

[vale pine]

rogue became irrelevant on the later fights because you actually would have been better off not bringing a rogue

raid teams just palyed rogue because of the long world first race

[molten citrus]

i think rogue was decent on rygelon/jailer

[vale pine]

if they knew beforehand would probably drop rogue entirely

[hazy breach]

All 3 specs were kinda mid but ye outlaw was slightly worse

[bleak wind]

ye looking at the logs now, I am thinking of amirdrasil

[hazy breach]

Rn all 3 are top specs

[vale pine]

yep

and outlaw/sub are still the least played specs in game

[bleak wind]

I am pretty sure if people swapped from assa to sub or outlaw then those would be the 'top'

[hazy breach]

Ye

[vale pine]

due to perception and tuning

[bleak wind]

like right now I have pretty much assa rogues with PI beating me

[hazy breach]

Sub dropped like 10 positions on the statistics when assa got buffed by 5%

In aberrus

[lavish girder]

yeah, as outlaw seeing literal HUNDREDS of other parses for a mid tier mythic fight is funny. There are doozens of us!

[vale pine]

tbh

i don't think anyone wanted to play rogue in s3

people like to see themselves on top of the meter

and rogue was not good in doing so

[alpine wraith]

it is funny how it always goes like we say

like rogue is blasting wait until other people get gear

then oh no

[vale pine]

it was like this a few times

[bleak wind]

the amount of times I've heard 'rogue is so broken' in my raid the first week of raid is crazy

and then ends up in the middle but people still remember that first week

[honest saddle]

Gods of the first 4 bosses

[vale pine]

It is the same in any rogue discussion

e.g. people often comment on balance of the first 2 or 3 weeks

so if a spec is good for 2 weeks

then not played

[swift tinsel]

thats when our raid group gets the most rerollers

[vale pine]

"NOOO WE ALWAYS NEED TO PLAY THIS SPEC"

[swift tinsel]

like two weeks after we start raiding lol

[honest saddle]

I mean they literally have a laser beam on rogue always. Remember assassination in the beginning of Amirdrassil with PI

then they nerfed it until it went from first to worst

its absurd how much they target us

[vale pine]

Maybe thats a hot take

[bleak wind]

it was PI + wrong reatribution from aug if I remember correctly

[vale pine]

but i don't know why assassiantion is often overtuned to then just recive nerfs

[honest saddle]

it was a total over reaction

[vale pine]

this tier it just did not get nerfed

[honest saddle]

its like they dont understand how pi works

[vale pine]

it feels weird

because you expect balance from tuning between rogue specs

[lean arrow]

DS or Trickster which is easier to handle?

[vale pine]

and its a roulette usually

[bleak wind]

probably trickster

[vale pine]

just play trickster everywhere

[vale pine]

I think it was overnerfed, but i also don't understand why you need to purposfully overtune it in the first place

it made no sense, you essentially create a high engagement cylce where everyone jumps on the "op"

to then most of the time nerf it

[honest saddle]

I mean was it even overtuned

without pi

how was it any different than unholy dk

before it

[vale pine]

DK got nerfed too

you know

^^

maybe the problem is not tuning but PI ^^

[honest saddle]

stop stealing what im gonna say

as im typing it, fuu

[vale pine]

haha

[bleak wind]

its also the easiest of the specs so more people would play it and perform well on it

[vale pine]

I am not sue about this

[shut sonnet]

idk how much the kb stacking bug factored into that but that was also a thing

[honest saddle]

I think sub is the easiest to play, the hardest to understand, maybe?

[vale pine]

Assassiantion has dot management

which is already for many even higher end seemingly a complicated mechanism

[vale pine]

na, sub def. not the easiest to play

i think outalw might be even the easiest

[void hound]

hard to get into and hard to master

[bleak wind]

the hardest thing about assa is to supress the urge to press envenom when you have the energy for it

[void hound]

the hardest thing about assa is supressing your anger when KB gets parried

[bleak wind]

not sure which one that was

[shut sonnet]

would stack off of all poison applications not just the ones on the main target

[vale pine]

just have a sub rogue in your group ^^

[swift tinsel]

Outlaw has a bit to pay attention to, I'd argue it might be on par with sin 'complicated'-wise

[bleak wind]

I don't remember that tbh

[void hound]

my co rogue is an assa OTP

[honest saddle]

honest to god, the absolute hardest part of queen prog for me as sub rogue was paying attention to coup de grace, and making sure I didnt use it while mid air on a poison pop so I didnt charge to boss at a bad time and die.

Not even joking.

[bleak wind]

outlaw requires alot of fast decisions which is not always easy to do, but it also kinda depends on the person

[vale pine]

tho, i think difficultly is always a hard topic to discuss

[bleak wind]

maybe I am just getting old

[vale pine]

every spec channel will argue for their spec to be the most difficult

[honest saddle]

yuhp, washed up annsie confirmed

[void hound]

lowkey outlaw has the highest skill cap on rogue, but cant say that too loud here

[swift tinsel]

Outlaw, from my understanding, can be handled pretty easily with a single weakaura with a couple of conditions added to it

[leaden prairie]

No one will argue sin is the most difficult, even sin mains

[swift tinsel]

but that's purely from gleaning info from the wowhead guide

Sub -> outlaw -> sin from most to least imo

[vale pine]

You want me to search up some old discussions around EB uptime ?

[shut sonnet]

[alpine wraith]

true sin is the hardest for sure

[leaden prairie]

Sin mains need to uff on some copium juice to try to find some "hard" stuffs to their specs

Even then

[alpine wraith]

to not fall asleep

[leaden prairie]

Everyone knows

[leaden prairie]

Long time scana

How you doing

[shut sonnet]

freedom from wow lowkey good

[leaden prairie]

I currently haven't played wow in 3 hours and I'm already experiencing withdrawal

[vale pine]

Uptime was a big topic in Legion, and i for that reason did some apl experoments. They showcase that min/maxing it was not a dps gain and could potentially even impact your dps negatively.... Tho the same min/max was also why the spec was difficult to learn from how i understood it

Conflict of interesst, so in the end the apl/sim was wrong/useless ofc

[shut sonnet]

go play with your vdh muffin on ptr

[vale pine]

neverless, think people now are more educated

so you can argue more reasonable

still, i think which spec is the hardest will have many people point at diffrent directions

[leaden prairie]

Everyone knows it's outlaw anyway

No point arguing it

[vale pine]

i find outlaw the harderst because my hand starts to hurt after doing 2 keys

[leaden prairie]

[vale pine]

if i look at the outlaw apl

[bleak wind]

Im the same ngl

[vale pine]

i kinda want to throw a lot of it out of the window

and re-write everything

[leaden prairie]

Same

[vale pine]

there is so much specific min/max, i am unsure how much of it is rly needed

or even a dps gain

[leaden prairie]

Issue is

Everything adds up

To a lot

Outlaw is cringe anyway

[vale pine]

haha

[leaden prairie]

I hate all the rtb rules

[kind walrus]

Sooooo I implemented a cast count WA for when I'm in Dance to keep track of my SS casts. Vast improvement based on your feedback. Thanks again!

[honest saddle]

outlaw has been cringe from day 1

bring back combat with deep insight

MAKE COMBAT GREAT AGAIN

[vale pine]

Outlaw needs a KS rework

[bleak wind]

best spec for outdoor content though

[honest saddle]

it's kind of crazy that outlaw exists

considering that combat was the most popular rogue spec by a lot

it would be like if they said, hey lets retire fire mage

and make a timeweaver instead

[kind walrus]

Outlaw is ridiculous APM. I can't do it. It's too much.

[vale pine]

best spec for zekvos

[bleak wind]

true

[vale pine]

reminder that i should try it now

[honest saddle]

I just do the 1 hr tricks on brann and afk

[swift tinsel]

Did it as arcane at like 615, was kinda fun

[bleak wind]

he just dies now

but unironically dreadblades flag outlaw back in sepulcher was probably the most fun I've had on a spec in a while

[vale pine]

I think current sub is one of the better iterations

legion dfa was also great

[swift tinsel]

#neverforget

Current trickster sub def is one of the best imo

[honest saddle]

it was awesome.

warlord sub with soul capacitor was incredible

did you play then @vale pine

[vale pine]

i started playing again very late in wod

[swift tinsel]

I'm sad I missed most of legion

[vale pine]

my GF wanted to try the game, i did say i would only level with her till end of free account levels....

well here we are ^^

[swift tinsel]

played the first few weeks then had to quit for work/school, didn't come back until BFA prepatch

[vale pine]

I found HfC extrmely nice back then

[honest saddle]

in Hellfire Citadel, you had the legendary ring that stored damage, and a trinket that stored damage, and if you procced the trinket it could explode into the ring, and the ring could explode, into another trinket proc

[vale pine]

but realized, i just liked to do big dps

[honest saddle]

so you would do like 1 dps, that got amped into like 20 when it exploded.

[vale pine]

hfc was desig wise boring

[honest saddle]

very very buggy

you could easily one shot mythic bosses with mechanics

and pulling trash

[vale pine]

iirc they used outlaw to oneshot one boss

because of BF/KS

could feed it in soul cap and ring

and do big deeps

[honest saddle]

yes

shaman did the same

could do with either

[vale pine]

just pull some trash mobs and go ham

[kind walrus]

Legion sub was amazing.

[honest saddle]

finality and rotating finisher buffs was the min max yeah?

[vale pine]

It was when i started to spend unreasonable amounts of time to optimize the sim

i wrote a entire new apl from scratch for dfa mid legion to then later combine it with the default

dfa was also one of the most fun spells we had

unless you clipped through the floor and died, that wasn't that nice

[honest saddle]

sometimes thats the best part of a spell

using it or shadowstep to clip through walls into trees or floors

FUN

[vale pine]

dodging over stuff with dfa felt amazing

tbh i am surprised about DF

the amount of time i disconnected because the claw of my dragon touched a mountain or sth similar

[worn ivy]

Why sometimes Storm during dance and sometimes SS

[vale pine]

yet, i did only read people loving dragonlying

[vale pine]

you storm once during dance

but only once

in aoe

[worn ivy]

yea for spread

FW

2nd rotten

[vale pine]

^

[worn ivy]

but sometimes during dance

2x Storm

[alpine wraith]

is that DS?

seems trickster should only storm once every 8 secs or so

[worn ivy]

no its trickster

[bleak wind]

can you link one

[worn ivy]

i patchwork 5 T

should i sim different

[bleak wind]

thats fine I guess depending on what you want but can you link the sim where you saw it happen

[worn ivy]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/wmSaQpSV7Tqpdz6TaqZNVx

also this one 2x storm in 1 dance

[honest saddle]

hot take, but with how stacks drop on ptr, I unironically think its better to never finish with anything outside of cds unless its rupture.

[swift tinsel]

I don't see it

[honest saddle]

no way that a few wet noodle evisc resetting 30% of your dance dam is worth

I think you just force 10 stacks 100% of the time, and if I am wrong, it's not that far off

which is kinda sad regardless

once they fix the reset bugs, it will play normal hopefully

[bleak wind]

where? I only see one storm per dance

[swift tinsel]

Same, I see a bunch where storm is the first global after dance ends but no 2x in any of them

[alpine wraith]

my man is drunk and didnt see when dance ended and next began

too many martinis

[worn ivy]

yes

true actually 😄

didnt see where dance ended

[alpine wraith]

happens

[worn ivy]

but if there is

prio target

u still use evis

instead of bp right

[alpine wraith]

not really worth

just use coups

bp is quite strong

[worn ivy]

so during dance

always SS BP

only 1 storm

after dance

to spread 2nd rotten

[vestal escarp]

Watch them softcap bf and forget nimble

[silent ruin]

glad it helped !

[tulip gorge]

does nimble need to be softcapped when sub already has black powder?

[kind bluff]

I thought nimble was hardcapoed at 7 targets?

[leaden prairie]

?

You have bp

And sec tech

Level of entitlement from these sub guys smh my head

[tulip gorge]

outlaw has blade rush

[leaden prairie]

[vestal escarp]

Shoosh

[vale pine]

outlaw uncapped, see

[vestal escarp]

Go away

[leaden prairie]

I think br js still a DPS loss to press at like 20 taegets

Not sure it ever become a gain no fap

No fap

Bru

[honest saddle]

It's energy efficient, YOU IDIOT.

[leaden prairie]

I hate typing on phone

[weak flame]

Go to bed

[leaden prairie]

Yo nitro

[weak flame]

Yo

[leaden prairie]

[weak flame]

Its been a while i didnt come there

[leaden prairie]

Ye

[weak flame]

My guild force me to play dh

We dont have any chaos brand

Im doomed

[leaden prairie]

Noob

[honest saddle]

swap guild

ez fix

[weak flame]

I actually like it

[honest saddle]

show them the true C h a O s B r An D

[weak flame]

Dh on ptr looks fun

[honest saddle]

it does good dam on ptr too

[leaden prairie]

They removed the jump around things right

I think I'm a main dh now

[weak flame]

I tried it on live in 16 i think Its a the worst thing ive ever seen in M+

[weak flame]

Man I Hope we dont have to dash anymore im so bad at dh

[leaden prairie]

Same

But it's just the dashing shit

[leaden prairie]

I swear

[weak flame]

Wait I dont know if im allowed to post this here

[leaden prairie]

But it's gone now nitro

Did you not check ptr

[weak flame]

I did

[leaden prairie]

You use the other thing inst

The uh

[weak flame]

But you still have to retreat

[leaden prairie]

The energy thingy

Ye but

[tulip gorge]

the amount of m+ runs ruined by DHs dashing and ninja pulling shit

[leaden prairie]

It's not the same

[weak flame]

And then felblade

Or dash

Whatever

[leaden prairie]

Ye

It seems chill

[weak flame]

I think in M+ we dont play this

I think Its totally no mouvement

My rogue will be used for splits to funnel the other rogue 😹😹😹

[leaden prairie]

Funnel me

[weak flame]

One day maybe if we are in the same g

When ours will disband pog

[shadow lance]

Time to play DH

The dash thing was too hard for me to play

I finally can give a shto as dps

[weak flame]

Im not sure

But i tested things on ptr

And I think Its better to take all the other talents to buff your aura in aoe situation

With rage fire etc

[shadow lance]

We'll see

I still will have to gear the rogue, cuz i'm the only one in guild

[weak flame]

Nice

We were 2 rogue no dh

And my dh is 639 and im « decent » with it

What a trap

[shadow lance]

Woopsie

RL politly ask you to switch on it I guess

[weak flame]

Kinda

But now i think im fine with it

Its interesting to try something new for progress

It gives more xp

One day maybe ill be able to play all melees who knows

[shadow lance]

I love melee gameplay

But not DK

Dunno why

[weak flame]

But its hydrogen bombe vs couching baby lmfao rn

[weak flame]

Same

Idk

frost maybe but not unholy

[shadow lance]

I would same theopposite

I could try UH but not frost

[weak flame]

Frost is melee

[shadow lance]

Nice court parses ahahaa

[weak flame]

Uh is a man who send pets to battle

[weak flame]

I died man its so hard with dashes??? I didnt progress the boss as a dh what a hell

[shadow lance]

It was a joke

[weak flame]

Yeye i know

Not a flame

But damn i suck

[shadow lance]

I would ahve done it on every boss

[weak flame]

Its so stressful

[shadow lance]

AS a dh

"I need to get my burst now"

[weak flame]

I die a lot for the moment

[shadow lance]

Dash and take a swirly

[weak flame]

Its really weird to dash for burst and if you miss the window its over for your damage

And you have to retreat and dash zzzzz

[shadow lance]

I think it is

I need some rest

Cya and gn

[warm depot]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[kind walrus]

Quick question: is there a way to optimize Shadow Blades?

Context is when I'm hitting dummy it shows as ~5% of my overall, but sims show it should be ~7-8% of overall on a dummy.

[lilac stag]

Send it as the guides suggest.

(After SecTech)

[tribal blade]

yo! maybe, we'll see 😉

[tribal blade]

i'm so ready to be pressing blades before sectec for the amp

[lilac stag]

We’re running heroic in 30 mins. Should be on after that.

[lilac stag]

Are you also ready to spam rupture outside of dance?

[tribal blade]

😦

[swift tinsel]

while staring at a primed coup/DN

feelsgreatman

[lilac stag]

It’s true sub rogue balance. Fix something that feels awful. Replaced it with new gameplay that’s fucking worse.

[fallow nimbus]

Watch them add rupture to the set

[swift tinsel]

I'm honestly waiting for it lol

or just "Finishers" so we can't SnD either

[edgy zenith]

wait why is this?

[swift tinsel]

bc it doesn't reset tier set

Evisc/Coup, Sectech and BP do

[edgy zenith]

ohhhh, new tier set, ye

[swift tinsel]

so to preserve Winning Streak stacks you use Rupture as only finisher

[edgy zenith]

surely they'll fix that degenerate gameplay 🙂

🙂

[swift tinsel]

lower floor, higher ceiling inc

I'd say I'm surprised they didn't see it coming when they designed the set

but I'm not

[edgy zenith]

all they gotta do is make it so any spender has a chance

and we're chilling

[swift tinsel]

they'd have to nerf it to make that worth it

otherwise we just go DS and let Hunt them Down carry

bc the finisher/shadow dmg amp is likely way too strong to ever risk dropping

[tribal blade]

they put themselves in such a horrible position with winning streak

i feel like it would have been better to just redesign it completely

[swift tinsel]

Could not agree more

None of the other roles have downsides

[spring torrent]

anyone have any tips on soloing max rank zekvir? I keep getting 1-shot after I've used my defensives to avoid getting 1-shot lol

[swift tinsel]

I'm surprised more of the melee sets don't have the WW contingency of dropping once they would add max+1 so it doesn't encourage stuff like Rupture tech

[cloud perch]

question

when do we use BP and when Evis

[swift tinsel]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[cloud perch]

[swift tinsel]

depends on hero tree and target count

[edgy zenith]

is it only worth it to apply FW with the Rotten using storm on 5+ targets? or good at 4 targets too?

anyone know>?

[hexed sluice]

I rocked the potion curio when I did mine

and you pretty much juggle stepping on a potion every 2 autos

And pray brann doesnt reset the boss by running out the door

When I didnt have dance running I was doing

1. Eat an Auto for 60%
2. Feint an auto for 30%
3. Step on a potion,
   rinse and repeat. and hope for good procs

[swift tinsel]

afaik its 5+

assuming trickster

[spring torrent]

which

hero talent

[edgy zenith]

yeah I was wondering because 5+ targets is when BP is better, but I wonder if it's worth applying FW still at lower target counts

[spring torrent]

did you use

[hexed sluice]

Trickster, its much more bulky and thats more important

[swift tinsel]

With nimble being weird with armor I wouldn't think so

[edgy zenith]

i don't even know how armor works in this game at all lmao

[swift tinsel]

it's outdated

outside of pvp

[spring torrent]

ty

[edgy zenith]

does nimble not work with armor?

[hexed sluice]

Also you want to go into the final phase with both vanishes and cloak as thats ususally when brann dies or starts outranging you for cleanses.

So you kick all the heals and hope brann cleanses you, and if he doesnt then pull some tricks out your ass to eat that dot.

Also dont vanish with brann dead, it will reset, but you can vanish and instantly break stealth and stay in combat, effectively using vanish to remove the dot, but its sometimes buggy.

[swift tinsel]

its phys damage so it gets mitigated but iirc FW doesn't interact with nimble on secondary targets, just the hit that generates the nimble cleave hits

[spring torrent]

which one is the potion curio?

[hexed sluice]

Logging in to check

[spring torrent]

this one?

[hexed sluice]

Yes

[spring torrent]

ah ty!

[edgy zenith]

I think it makes sense that it wouldn't interact with FW, otherwise you would get liek double dip damage, right?

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[edgy zenith]

bc nimble duplicates damage dealt after mitigation, yeah?

[swift tinsel]

that's my understanding of it, yeah

[edgy zenith]

yeah, that makes sense then. So FW is "applied" to all targets hit by nimble if your main target has FW

so not worth to apply to other mobs

if that's the case

ty

[hexed sluice]

This is what I ran for my Zekvir kill

[swift tinsel]

The FW on others is for shadowed finishers buffing bp making it worth casting

[edgy zenith]

yeah, but if not pressing BP, then it's not good

[swift tinsel]

^

also the more I play DS on ptr the more I hate it

with DN/mark bug

[tribal blade]

no supercharger /cry

[bleak wind]

do it as outlaw and save yourself some headaches, you can vanish every dot pretty much

[swift tinsel]

vanishing doesn't reset him?

[bleak wind]

no you have bran with you

[swift tinsel]

ah I suppose

[bleak wind]

might make it so that you can't take aggro from barn back to you at some points though

but when I did it I ressed him twice so I guess its fine

[spring torrent]

I only know how to play Sub 😦

[bleak wind]

should be fine, you don't have to play perfectly, the danger there is the damage you take and with outlaw you kinda avoid all of it. Only damage you need to do is to the adds so if you can kill them you should be fine

give it a try and see if it works for you

[kind walrus]

The weekly loot gods were benevolent. They gave me a hero transmitter.

[quiet wasp]

Can someone clarify how supercharger works for me? It no longer buffs a specific combo point, right? For example, your #3 combo point. Instead, it buffs a combo point and your next finisher (with however many combo points it uses) will consume the charged point and act as if it used an additional 2 points?

So I use symbols, I then use an eviscerate with 5 combo points. The eviscerate will instead “consume” 7 points? Is that right?

[lucid lily]

Yes, that’s correct

[tribal blade]

what do you guys expect me to do