yea have to get them early
#subtlety
void hound
99% of gambler quit before hitting it big, never forget
formal helm
Make it purple or shadowy cats and we have a deal
alpine wraith
to make them know how real work is
vale pine
Basically means, many of the games are more slot mashines with a fancy design now
alpine wraith
a little slavery
balmy thorn
You joke, but that would make so much money. It's the gilded brutosaur thing all over again. So many people thought it was a terrible idea, and then dornogal was covered in long necks
keen dome
What's fascinating to me is you can look at some of the Chinese produced Gacha's that are hyper-successful like Mihyho games. And they're not as predatory as western gambling titles, while also making more money.
alpine wraith
You joke, but that would make so much money. It's the gilded brutosaur thing all...
i dont joke i ahve been saying this for 16y
since like cata or something
void hound
maybe its time to delete gaming and social media off the face of the earth
keen dome
maybe its time to delete gaming and social media off the face of the earth
well the latter 100%
alpine wraith
wow skill mtx would go omega hard
they even have good artist and vfx people
i would love if it was as diverse as PoE
keen dome
Blizz have some of the best artists in the industry, it's wild how talented they ar
alpine wraith
and when they see it makes the big bucks
maybe we wont have things like coup animation
staying in the game for so long
just flailing the arms
3 times
formal helm
What's fascinating to me is you can look at some of the Chinese produced Gacha's...
Yeh, bc they actually, somewhat, reward your effort.
I low key love playing hsr and genshin. Only reason I stopped playing genshin is bc my laptop sucks and I literally can't run it.
balmy thorn
I would not. We are installing weakauras with X marks on our character so we don't lose them in the mess of combat. Almost everyone plays with either a cursor twice the size or a circle around it. Adding more clutter is definitely not what this game needs
alpine wraith
imagine if there were 5 diff coup animations you could buy
keen dome
Yeh, bc they actually, somewhat, reward your effort.
I low key love playing hsr ...
high5 HSR
vale pine
What's fascinating to me is you can look at some of the Chinese produced Gacha's...
The success is a bit of a cultural difference, MTX and gatcha is something people in different countries are willing to spend money to show that they are generous. While people often get looked down on in our culture.
It means companies need to design diffrently depending on the target market
void hound
imagine if there were 5 diff coup animations you could buy
gacha is the only way to save sub
we all have to whale up 😭
alpine wraith
many gacha games give a LOT of content for what you pay
most people dont even spend that much
formal helm
Waiting for aglaea now 👀 👀
alpine wraith
but get like monthy or bi weekly updates
keen dome
A ludicrous amount, in some cases. I used to play a Star Wars gacha (Galaxy of Heroes) and it was the worst, most predatory game I've ever played lmao
Just non-stop powercreep mandatory purchases.
And then you compare it to some other titles like arknights or mihyho games and it's wild how accessible and friendly they are to non-spenders, and how much content you get.
vale pine
I think mobile games show diffrences quite good, e.g. Raid Shadow legends requires you to spend roughly 80-100$/month to be competitive. Something you can't do in a title/genre like wow
keen dome
Yeah
void hound
right but who is at fault?
the gamer who is a slave to digital dopamine
vale pine
I don't know if i want to blame the user, it is too easy to deisgn arbusive things and its common everywhere.
formal helm
many gacha games give a LOT of content for what you pay
Ye, bc they don't try to hide that they're gacha.
Most games pretend that they're f2p and then there's a million adds, battle passes that give you fuck all ans rewards / shop options that are impossible to play w/o.
In mihoyo games you can still clear the end game content with 4* chars, altho it will take a bit of optimising.
vale pine
Let me give you one example of what i mean.
void hound
I don't know if i want to blame the user, it is too easy to deisgn arbusive thin...
ahem
keen dome
right but who is at fault?
the gamer who is a slave to digital dopamine
It's always gonna stop at the State to effectively regulate and protect indiviudals from predatory capitalism but the modern State in most nations is wholly owned or full of the bourgeois with no care for the interest of the proletariat. So we just get.. MORE CAPITALISM
vale pine
Google likes to collect data obviousely, but the EU has laws to allow the person to view and request deletion of these data
void hound
It's always gonna stop at the State to effectively regulate and protect indiviud...
i agree with the first part, completely disagree with the second part
formal helm
It's always gonna stop at the State to effectively regulate and protect indiviud...
Ye, and unironicallly china has a big w when it comes to controlling this shit. As is the case w/ mihoyo and the rest 
void hound
doesnt china have the most egregious gacha games known to man?
keen dome
Yeah - it's interesting to see how some countries are actually pursuing effective regulation.
keen dome
doesnt china have the most egregious gacha games known to man?
I don't know, I think some western titles take the cake but I don't think they're as successful.
void hound
i would be shocked if that was true since every game dev talks about the tolerence for p2w being way lower in the west
keen dome
Ye
formal helm
doesnt china have the most egregious gacha games known to man?
Not from what I know. Iirc they discourage gambling. They even had to modify battle passes bc of some laws iirc
void hound
Not from what I know. Iirc they discourage gambling. They even had to modify bat...
china is funny
they will regulate loot boxes in games but you cant talk about what happened in 1989
vale pine
So if you have a youtube acocunt, it logs not only which video you watched but also every video you hovered over.
You can then view it i your "activity" timeline.
If you delete elements, it does so like this:
keen dome
So if you have a youtube acocunt, it logs not only which video you watched but a...
Huh, damn. I never thought that they'd be tracking just something you hover over but it makes total sense.
formal helm
china is funny
they will regulate loot boxes in games but you cant talk about wh...
Well yeah.
Try talking to serbians about '90s. Same shit really.
keen dome
I know FB straight up catalogues everything you do on the internet to feed into their algorithmn which is insanely bad and against GDPR but lmao FB.
void hound
sucks the tiktok ban didnt go through
formal helm
sucks the tiktok ban didnt go through
Deffo
keen dome
I'd rather they ban X and FB.
vale pine
if you watch the clip i just created, it deletes each video individually with a very long delay.
Also don't be fooled by the message, you need to wait another up to a minute to have these videos also removed, if you close the tab it sometimes does not remove it
What this is is a dark pattern
alpine wraith
doesnt china have the most egregious gacha games known to man?
korean are worse than chinese gacha imo
void hound
I'd rather they ban X and FB.
nah, tiktok is actually worse than both
alpine wraith
chinese ones are like bargain bin diff and you can just coast then spend for things
void hound
korean are worse than chinese gacha imo
fair
alpine wraith
korean is like UPGRADE +14 weapon with 2 or 3 cash items with 2% chance of upgrade
and if you dont use those cash items item can be destroyed
vale pine
Basically google wants you to:
- Not know where to find the options --- so it requires 4 or 5 clicks to even get to this section
- They don't want you to delete much --- so they add a artifical waiting time and inconsistencies so you are not incentivised to delete anything
formal helm
korean are worse than chinese gacha imo
mostly bc korea is so much more gone down the capitalism hole
vale pine
It is what every game and service does thats exploitive and wow does it too
keen dome
Basically google wants you to:
- Not know where to find the options --- so it re...
The eternal and constant enshitffication of the user experience. Cancelling prime on Amazon and having to go through six different pages where they move the button constantly.
vale pine
E.g. why do you think you get a mount for doing timewalking 5 weeks in a row during the period of low subscriptions?
formal helm
The eternal and constant enshitffication of the user experience. Cancelling prim...
oh remember that shit
keen dome
I think the EU is trying to regulate against that but I'd have to go look at the law and I am lazy
formal helm
had to go call customer support and even then it took nearly 45 fucking minutes for them to cancel the thing
void hound
The eternal and constant enshitffication of the user experience. Cancelling prim...
real and true
vale pine
Dark patterns are very much illegal
formal helm
I think the EU is trying to regulate against that but I'd have to go look at the...
yes, they kinda are
void hound
which is why analog media is based, cause it cant be enshittified
alpine wraith
yea they are trying to put same manner of cancel as signing up
vale pine
but what is allowed and not is a gray area
keen dome
Ye
vale pine
so it is hard to make any action on websites
alpine wraith
yea you would need to win court cases in many countries
vale pine
even worse, if you are not in the eu, it adds even more loops to jump through
alpine wraith
to set precedents
alpine wraith
and if shit goes wrong they just leave
vale pine
E.g. we all know the cookie banners
void hound
god i love europe
i love intigrated markets and international unity
vale pine
companies now add "legitime interesst" as a loophole
to basically track you even if you opt out
illegal technically, but until there is a bigger win in court, gray area
formal helm
god i love europe
i love intigrated markets and international unity
"international unity" is a good one.
It's not as united and as unified as it seems, but hopefully that changes
void hound
honestly i dont care that much about the data harvesting thing as long as foreign adversaries arent involved (which is the case with tiktok)
vale pine
(because opting out would mean opting out by law, and you need to be able to do so with one click, which already is not the case everywhere)
void hound
"international unity" is a good one.
It's not as united and as unified as it s...
yeah it could be better
vale pine
fun fact inno
you don't need to add a cookie banner if you are the only one using the data
and idk why but having 300 vendors or more to share your data for a personal blog/website seems for me like something that shouldn't exist
formal helm
and idk why but having 300 vendors or more to share your data for a personal blo...
deffo
void hound
i see that argument intuitively, but the case needs to be stronger
there needs to be a demonstrable harm
imo
vale pine
for trust, apple does redirect traffic to a chinese server to allow the chinese goverment to coolect all data while stating a big focus on privacy
vale pine
^ this works because they technically don't share the data
void hound
i agree that is a huge problem actually
vale pine
the internet is basically build on trust but none of the companies are trustworthy ^^
vale pine
the big ones at least
so apple, amazon, microsoft, google, meta
(did not list chinese ones, because they are not that relevant for us)
void hound
it is worrisom that all the social media giants are forming an oligarchy now
also we should definitely ban tiktok
vale pine
I am not too worried:
- Reddit is a dying platform
- Twitter is mostly drama with little essence
- Facebook is not appealing to the younger oudience
- ...
Each platform stuggles, and neither offers something unique that keeps you on it
the main diffrence is the user base
void hound
youre not worried that zuck and elon are engaging in rent seeking behaviour?
both who control the information flow of like 200 million or so people
vale pine
I am not rly worried about Musk or Zuck
vale pine
E.g. if you just looked at the Ai marked
void hound
and your mom and dad probably get their political views from in
vale pine
china did completely whipe the floor with all american companies
balmy thorn
On a Sub related qeustion. How important is it to play around Coup De Grace and the Unseen Blades buff?
Should I be filling in aoe with SS and BS?
vale pine
The young userbase is also not that active on twitter but tiktok is their primary platform
which is china
void hound
both who control the information flow of like 200 million or so people
mb, i was way off
vale pine
On a Sub related qeustion. How important is it to play around Coup De Grace and ...
you want to have fazed up before using coup de grace
outside of that, you don't need to worry about it
balmy thorn
Ok but how do I get Coup De Grace? Isn't it by pressing SS and BS?
void hound
Ok but how do I get Coup De Grace? Isn't it by pressing SS and BS?
ye
every time unseen blade hits, you get a stack
vale pine
you get it randomly from procs
void hound
at 4 stacks you get a coup
vale pine
^
balmy thorn
Ok so you shouldn't be prioritising getting CDG?
void hound
you get it naturally
vale pine
^ just don't worry
just secret first in dance
and you generally can ignore coup
it procs passively
balmy thorn
Riiight I see
vale pine
if you are in aoe
you might want to keep an eye, because you want to have fazed on your target
so could potentially need to use a backstab to apply it
but thats also optimizing
balmy thorn
And fazed is applied with SS and BS right?
vale pine
(outside of dance)
keen dome
mb, i was way off
lmao at X being so low, that's really funny
hazy breach
And fazed is applied with SS and BS right?
Yes, and sectech
void hound
lmao at X being so low, that's really funny
that is interesting, although X is undoubtedly extremely important for politics (moreso in the US maybe)
keen dome
Not anymore, imo. But that's a whole discussion
balmy thorn
Yes, and sectech
Sorry wot? What is sectech?
hazy breach
Secret technique
vale pine
Yes, and sectech
^ from
balmy thorn
Oh roger that
keen dome
Our friendly shadow clone creating big damage button
balmy thorn
Perhaps I should track fazed by a colour change on my nameplates
vale pine
that is interesting, although X is undoubtedly extremely important for politics ...
The political situation is quite hated atm, as igestalt mentioned its a complex topic and probably a bit out of the scope of the discussion
alright, time to go and wrap presents for my girlfriends birthday today
hazy breach
Perhaps I should track fazed by a colour change on my nameplates
Def not on nameplate, the only relevance it has is that you dont want to use coup when its not up, and thats only to your primary target anyway
haughty mural
alright, time to go and wrap presents for my girlfriends birthday today
im always to late for that
every
year
keen dome
I would like to voice my dislike of Classic timewalking.
balmy thorn
I would like to voice my dislike of Classic timewalking.
I don't participate in any timewalking event that is before legion
It's just better that way for my mental health
keen dome
I need to try my luck at Heroic transmitter.
balmy thorn
May I ask why? The season is dead
balmy thorn
It'll be replaced soon
keen dome
658 is max ilvl right now
Yep
keen dome
It'll be replaced soon
Because I want it and it'll last long neough in S2 that it's worth it for someone pushing week 1 AotC imo
Which is my personal favourite challenge
balmy thorn
Fair enough then
keen dome
Realistically it's very whatever, but I want it haha
balmy thorn
I personally wouldn't put myself through classic timewalking for it, but you do you lol
tribal blade
given how big an impact transmitter is it's absolutely worth trying to get a heroic one at minimum
keen dome
It's only about 1k more agility from a normal one, at least. But it's nice to have.
tribal blade
it's not insignificant at least
keen dome
Ye
Also equipped ilevel for groups, etc
it is statisically very unlikely i'll get it from a timewalking cache but it's a higher chance than 0%.
haughty mural
it's not even replaced so soon
which boss does drop house of cards ?
the slot machine is 3rd last ?
alpine wraith
yea it was rough i went also from normal to M
keen dome
Saving grace of Normal only being slightly worse than Heroic, at least. (And then massively worse than Mythic which, lol, a whole problem)
small spruce
Killed once, got it
keen dome
small spruce
Only luck I’ve had really tho, but it sure made a difference from champion ara-kara trinket😂
keen dome
Haha, I can imagine! hell yeah
And seen it drop twice form her. My normal one is from a timewalking box.
At least in S2 we'll have, eventual, determinism on this stuff.
vale pine
24 kills damn
keen dome
I think I've got some double-ups as I rekilled her to help friends some weeks. I think it's like.. 20 chances? I'd have to check how many weeks it's been out.
alpine wraith
my first one from normal was from a 30 man party
because it dropped 3 times
i managed to get 1
keen dome
I think 20 is.. 4 drops?
alpine wraith
yea
tribal blade
you could buy a kill
buying a kill allows you to reserve the loot too
if you're trying to get it pugging pugs are the actual worst, they literally roll on anything that drops they can roll on
vestal escarp
🏠♣️♦️♥️♠️
keen dome
you could buy a kill
I thought about it but I don't care enough to spend the gold. I lead my own pugs weekly anyway and I'd rather just do that and get it someday.
tulip gorge
I am so happy the 1.5m trinket doesn't have any stupid gimmick
keen dome
so far
tulip gorge
you have no idea
keen dome
also same
You pop it and it spawns a deck of cards and the minigame is you have ot build a house out of them in 10 seconds
while doing mechanics
tulip gorge
the only gimmick is that you get more mastery with each use
but it doesn't affect gameplay
keen dome
Yeah, it's push and blast at least.
tulip gorge
yes but thank God I can just press a button
tribal blade
i think there are probably some people who would rather do the mini game and not have rng
tulip gorge
and just get the stats
tribal blade
but i'm with you, i prefer just pressing the button
keen dome
I'd be fine with the minigame if it was consistently one thing.
void hound
I'd be fine with the minigame if it was consistently one thing.
this
branch was better because of it
tulip gorge
transmitter mini game is not rng at all 
tribal blade
well the effect of the trinket is static for transmitter
keen dome
If it was just the orb, or the jumping it'd be really chill
tribal blade
so every burn you get the exact same stats
keen dome
The fucking stand still one is so annoying
tulip gorge
or you get the platform and the tank decides in that moment to just move the mobs
keen dome
I was doing some heroic on tuesday to finish vault, and we get to Sikan. And on my second burst with transmitter I get the stand still. Right by boss. Hell yeah. I go to stand in it
and pop cooldowns and am about to hit big dam
balmy thorn
Does sub ever use thistle tea? Coz I am thinking of moving my shadow techniques thingy to that bind instead
keen dome
And the tanks pull the boss away
balmy thorn
considering it gives energy etc anyway
tulip gorge
no sub doesn't play with tea
tribal blade
Does sub ever use thistle tea? Coz I am thinking of moving my shadow techniques ...
it's very unlikely we ever play with tea again, but who knows
keen dome
We're a coffee spec
tribal blade
i would put aside a key bind for tea
across all 3 specs
because sin never plays w/o tea
keen dome
Although doesn't Assa just macro it to shiv these days?
balmy thorn
Yup I have that for sin
keen dome
And it's like a crit variance of difference in damage to do that
tulip gorge
I use the same keybind for tea on assa, rtb on outlaw and symbols on sub
void hound
We're a coffee spec
REAL
tribal blade
uhhhh yeah you can macro to shiv, but it's not ideal
balmy thorn
I use the keybind for BtE for outlaw tho lmao
void hound
you pop a thistle tea before cds
i pop a double shot espresso before cds
we are not the same
tribal blade
because in M+ you can do stuff like hold tea charges for your next upcoming DM
well in raid too
keen dome
oh yeah M+ is gonna be way more dynamic, good point
balmy thorn
True it sorta just auto does it's thing
tribal blade
i might just macro tea to shiv again, fuck it
tulip gorge
it's a tiny loss to macro it
tribal blade
yeah i'm probably just gonna macro
balmy thorn
I wouldn't bind it to shiv on assa tbh
tribal blade
since i'm not a sin main and i sometimes forget to press tea in keys
balmy thorn
you want to separate them for kingsbane
tulip gorge
but you use shiv for kingsbane...
balmy thorn
But at different timings
tribal blade
there's the thing of using a shiv charge between kingsbanes
vestal escarp
tribal blade
but you have to press shiv direcly on cd or you fuck your next kingsbane timing
vestal escarp
PTR???
balmy thorn
Yea but you don't want to press tea at the same time as shiv during kingsbane
tulip gorge
if you use only one tea per kingsbane what's the point of having 3 charges 
balmy thorn
You press shiv a little earlier
tribal blade
that's true, you want tea to hit the last pop
tulip gorge
people nowadays just play above 30 energy to not trigger the passive tea
tribal blade
yeah you can just watch your energy and never hit a builder when you're below 80
but i see high end sin rogues fucking that up constantly haha
because it's so much micro managing energy
and there's sometimes too much shit going on
tulip gorge
but yeah even if you min max thistle tea, the difference is tiny
tribal blade
i don't play sin enough to really care about min maxing to that degree
tulip gorge
don't worry, they will buff black powder any day now
balmy thorn
Yup they don't like one spec being meta for too many seasons in a row
tulip gorge
unless you're a vdh
tulip gorge
if enhancement is still the meta spec I will be mad
but I feel like assa wasn't that meta
it was overshadowed by fdk
balmy thorn
It was the most meta of the other 2 so if any rogue spec is getting tuning, it will likely be assa
tulip gorge
I wouldn't mind an outlaw or sub meta
balmy thorn
I think outlaw is gonna be fairly strong from what I hear
Has there been a sub meta? I know outlaw was kinda meta for a bit but it only lasted like 2 weeks
tulip gorge
in dragonflight season 1 I think
balmy thorn
yea but that wasn't really a sub meta was it? I can't remember too much. I healed that season
I remember them being insane for raid
But maybe that was S2
tulip gorge
vale pine
and somehow left sub alone <:LULW:1308874874181255258>
can't nerf a spec for a small player base
vale pine
what xpac we talk about?
vale pine
BFA was throughout outlaw
SL was mixed, between outlaw/sin/sub
DF was initially Outlaw, then Sub in s2, sin in s4
TWW is only sin so far
tulip gorge
shadowlands season 2 apparently too
vestal escarp
vale pine
^
balmy thorn
Is this a normal 5 dummy 2 minute breakdown? Or am I cooked?
tulip gorge
sub started really well in DF season 2, but then the god comp appeared 
you shouldn't use black powder on 5 targets I think
lilac stag
Wasn’t DF S1 the invasion of outlaw and havoc because we ignored all resources
lilac stag
Everything blending together these days.
vale pine
you shouldn't use black powder on 5 targets I think
you do ^^
tulip gorge
really? it's 5 and above?
alpine wraith
4 but you want fw
so need to do the strike sec tech storm bp
ingrain that one in the brainage
balmy thorn
Is Nimble Flurry supposed to be that good? Surely I'm just not getting enough damage out of my other abilities right?
lilac stag
What other abilities?
tulip gorge
nimble flurry is just blade flurry
balmy thorn
Like ST and BP etc
tulip gorge
ingrain that one in the brainage
thank you sir, I will
lilac stag
Evis & ST likely highest in details
vale pine
as a general rule 5+ or if flawless form is not up
lilac stag
You don’t BP all that much, but it’s still strong when used
tulip gorge
dumb question but in aoe do you use shuriken storm or strike
balmy thorn
I pressed SStorm 72 times in that 2 minutes
tulip gorge
I'm asking because I don't know what the correct play is
alpine wraith
as trickster you storm once to get fw
tulip gorge
use shadow strike and get the buff from trickster, or just shuriken storm
balmy thorn
Neither lmao. I am only just now trying to learn sub
alpine wraith
otherwise strike
tulip gorge
even at high target counts?
alpine wraith
but that storm you want it to be on the second builder in dance after strike
hazy breach
even at high target counts?
Yes
balmy thorn
Riiight ok, I will try again
alpine wraith
to not waste rotten
balmy thorn
You also reckon that Evis and STech should be top of details on 5 targets?
tulip gorge
lilac stag
And when you’re out of dance just get cdr going as best you can to get back into dance setup
hazy breach
You also reckon that Evis and STech should be top of details on 5 targets?
No, because you should be casting BP
mint swift
Hey subs
Hope you’re feeling good today!
vestal escarp
balmy thorn
Oh lmao
lilac stag
Overall or smacking a pack for 2 mins?
lilac stag
BP higher there. Overall key it shouldnt.
balmy thorn
Oh yea I'm not doing keys at 560 ilvl lol
Just practicing sub to see what I want to main
balmy thorn
I've learnt the other 2 specs, this is the last one on the list before I decide
tulip gorge
rogues are such doomers
lilac stag
No more or less than any other class / spec. We just have the playrate to back it up.
vestal escarp
Yeah ty
tulip gorge
the low playrate makes you more desirable for guilds
lilac stag
nah. Atrophic is generally a joke for most guilds.
mint swift
rogues are such doomers
Not me
tulip gorge
nah. Atrophic is generally a joke for most guilds.
you could be a dk
lilac stag
you could be a dk
Yeah we never need grips in any raid ever
tulip gorge
sorry, a dps dk
mint swift
So
Sub gets no changes outside of tier so far right
lilac stag
We’re at tuning patches. Don’t expect much else. Cope for tier to work.
mint swift
Tbh I’m still debating sub or ass
tulip gorge
it's not like the gameplay is bad 
lilac stag
deathstalker is shit
Trickster is fine, until RS drives nails in your head with a hammer.
balmy thorn
RS?
tulip gorge
why is deathstalker for sub bad
lilac stag
replicating shadows
tulip gorge
ok but that's a bug
lilac stag
Causes your cp refund to happen at random times during the gcd. That bug is a year old now. It’s a feature.
tulip gorge
they fixed some bugs for outlaw in the last build, maybe they will fix replicating shadows in a future build
lilac stag
mint swift
it's not like the gameplay is bad <:peeposhrug:657382266921812009>
It isn’t
I like both assasination and sub
So I’ll play whatever is better
lilac stag
why is deathstalker for sub bad
Ask eleem to explain the best aoe gameplay loop.
tulip gorge
don't you just spam black powder after sec tech?
lilac stag
mint swift
Ask eleem to explain the best aoe gameplay loop.
I never got into learning DS aoe
Just went for trick
vale pine
tbh deathstalker is not that diffrent but less fun
lilac stag
tbh deathstalker is not that diffrent but less fun
The pain of the cdr is just way more obvious and way less (subjective of course) fun.
tulip gorge
guess it's assa or outlaw season after all 
there is no chance in hell I'm doing that cringe shit
lilac stag
welcome to sub
tulip gorge
I hate tab swapping targets
vale pine
and maybe do the one storm per dance^^
vale pine
you don't need to, rupturing secondary targets is good but especially on trickster not mandatory to do damage
tulip gorge
the only reason I didn't get into enhancement shaman was because they had to tab swap to apply lava lash debuff
lilac stag
I’m headed to the other hipster spec. I pray for my rogue friends.
vale pine
is sv currently popular?
lilac stag
No
Better than what it has been. But still rather low
BM is just like assa. Majority of players love that spec.
SV is a better designed version of Sub
mint swift
Btw hi Fuu been a bit hope your doing well
mint swift
BM is just like assa. Majority of players love that spec.
BM my beloved
still trellis
BM is just like assa. Majority of players love that spec.
i think its time i reroll sub, my spec got compared to bm hunter
lilac stag
The player base did.
balmy thorn
is sv currently popular?
Coming from an OG SV fan, it is more popular since the rework, but still low play rate
More popular than the other two in keys I've found
lilac stag
The spec is chill & has a lot of tools and is fairly straightforward. Like assa. So it’s gravitated to.
How many hunters want to be in melee… Hense hipsters.
The spec is very enjoyable to me. Just like sub is generally more enjoyable to me over assa.
tribal blade
SV is a better designed version of Sub
had a guildie swap to surv a month ago and he also said it feels great to play
lilac stag
good QoL on ptr as well
like owl following like ravager
I actually want to play some keys
haughty mural
2025 year of the spear fellows
mint swift
had a guildie swap to surv a month ago and he also said it feels great to play
I wanted to go from BM to surv
I fucking love survival
But BM I just
Like more
tribal blade
bm you also have the added benefit of being able to stand literally anywhere you want
mint swift
bm you also have the added benefit of being able to stand literally anywhere you...
And cooler pets
haughty mural
mint swift
Like rn I have the one BfA chimera boss
mint swift
That makes a fucking annoying stomping sound whenever it moves
balmy thorn
SV has the benefit of being the only melee spec in the game that can do 80% of it's damage (in aoe at least) from 40yd range
So alot of the things that made playing a melee bad in this season, SV just ignored half of it by standing back and throwing bombs
hazy breach
For the most part ret can too
lilac stag
Ret 30y? I don’t remember
hazy breach
Ye but thats pretty much the same thing most of the time
lilac stag
ye
vestal escarp
Divine storm is a bit more melee
Just a bit
Surv can chill out during late part of siege like most casters for example
lilac stag
I have to readjust melee brain to get out more at times.
balmy thorn
Divine storm you have to be in melee to get the most out of it. The projection goes a few extra but that is only a small part of the damage
Iirc DS aoe around you is similar to like shuriken storm AoE
Maybe smaller even
The big issue with SV is that you don't have a lot of group utility. Your raid buff is a meme, and you have one aoe knock on a 1m cd
But at least they're actually tanky now
vale pine
DS plays a lot more classic sub rogue than trickster
vestal escarp
Bro you're talking into rog discord
balmy thorn
You should have been here earlier when we were talking about league 🙂
vestal escarp
Group utility? 
haughty mural
lilac stag
You should have been here earlier when we were talking about league 🙂
This is league and la channel. SV channel is pantheon.
mint swift
DS plays a lot more classic sub rogue than trickster
I wanna check it now acc
worn cape
Yeah, I like how this channel just turns into a LoL channel once in a while 😂
tribal blade
it would be cool if sub got some ranged capabilities
kind of like a dark ranger thing
keen dome
shuriken toss
tribal blade
sylvanas type thing
keen dome
but it's big
lilac stag
Ryve
lilac stag
Oh @tribal blade key is NW so not awful.
dusty copper
thoughts on sub in m+ s2?
lilac stag
It’s not assa
tribal blade
Oh <@146180393941336064> key is NW so not awful.
i have a mists 😉
vale pine
Edge of night as a talent node would be nice
haughty mural
thoughts on sub in m+ s2?
i guess it'll be like it is right now
tribal blade
Edge of night as a talent node would be nice
i would love to have banshee's blight
dusty copper
how is it currently? I've not played it for a couple of xpacs
haughty mural
if things are working
tribal blade
i think they should model new sub around slyvanas and princess
vestal escarp
thoughts on sub in m+ s2?
Current sub needs design changes or stars aligning for it to be very good in m+, for mid tier and below content it's alright
haughty mural
how is it currently? I've not played it for a couple of xpacs
mid
tribal blade
sub is not bad right now
lilac stag
you can use it for Mount next season
haughty mural
no its defo not bad
lilac stag
fighting meta chasers in pugs still a big knock
mint swift
it would be cool if sub got some ranged capabilities
Give sub an M16?
lilac stag
and you don’t fill a “required” utility slot
dusty copper
i like it when a class isnt meta but has the potential to top meters when played correctly
mint swift
dusty copper
would you say that subs meets that?
haughty mural
yes
lilac stag
No
lilac stag
You’re not beating enhance, ele or other dps specs
Hell assa gonna top depending on key
tribal blade
sub is strong enough right now to title chase
lilac stag
But you will destroy bosses
mint swift
i think like some sort of bow attack
No
vestal escarp
Difficult to top details on even grounds with many other specs
lilac stag
you also really need a shaman to shine
mint swift
M16
haughty mural
yea you loose like no ST in m+
mint swift
But instead of gunpowder it’s black powder
haughty mural
big Pog
vestal escarp
sub is strong enough right now to title chase
You're very prolly doing that with aug so no
tribal blade
to me the path to make sub more interesting is super obvious
keen dome
But instead of gunpowder it’s black powder
void pocket sand
tribal blade
You're very prolly doing that with aug so no
it's definitely fine i think
tribal blade
title chasing different from rank 1 keys
lilac stag
Able to duplicate itskef
Like replicating shadows, that would cause more bugs
tribal blade
the bar for hitting title is a lot lower
tribal blade
this season is so different though so hard to say
vestal escarp
Sub is drag in that range
vestal escarp
Defo, but it's even more rare in title range
tribal blade
wtf the amount of timed 20s hasn't gone past the 1st page of timed leaderboard runs yet
that's crazy
i haven't checked it in a week or 2
did kira stop pushing
the last time i looked he was still 1 point off 3800
mm yeah he hasn't run a key in 10 days, damn
alpine wraith
too busy playing poe2 or marvel rivals
surely
or maybe he went armin mode and plays lol
tribal blade
or yeah playing other games
tribal blade
yeah they finally are fixing depletion
tribal blade
i think it's a good system
tribal blade
where you need to time all keys at the same level until it can't deplete below that level
it's a better solution than just removing depletion entirely
alpine wraith
leader can put in title (we can try again if krangle)
so if you omegawipe on first boss or whatever
tribal blade
yeah for pugging it's gonna be amazing
alpine wraith
just goa gain
tribal blade
BUT
alpine wraith
without everyone becoming a little bitch
tribal blade
imagine how sweaty it's going to get for rank 1 teams
alpine wraith
but i expect some toxic people just leaving anyway
tribal blade
it at least removes that problem of having to run your key back up
when lfg depletes it down 5 levels in 2 hours
alpine wraith
the salty ToP runback
wiping in diff bosses 4 times
and 4 depletes
or the machinist extravaganza
of workshop failure
tribal blade
i'm not looking forward to workshop again
oh i better get the WA that tells you when you're LOS for the dog boss
kujo or w/e it's called
alpine wraith
yes if the bugs continue there are places you can hit him from
vale pine
yeah they finally are fixing depletion
hot take, but depletion did not matter as much
alpine wraith
with the buff still up
tribal blade
hot take, but depletion did not matter as much
i think the vast majority of the community is rejoicing
vale pine
you essentially queue up for a key, so what key you have barely matters
and having no depleation removes many of the reasons to stay with the group if something goes wrong
tribal blade
true
but at the same time it's going to remove a LOT of time pushing keys
since a big majority of key pushing ends up becoming running keys back up
vestal escarp
the deplete change is still a one step shy for being good
vale pine
because you can just restart a key without needing to do a diffrent one
tribal blade
it basically means if some pugs completely fuck up your key when you're trying to push it back up to a level that gives score it doesn't matter
or your team for that matter
tribal blade
the deplete change is still a one step shy for being good
i think it's good that you'll still deplete IO keys
it makes having those keys valuable
but holy shit this is about to make selling title a lot easier
WAY easier
damn
there are gonna be a lot of people buying title
with this new system
vestal escarp
hm like you can be in a loop of trying to get your key back up stuck at a competive level
vale pine
I think the top end will benefit the most, the regular player isn't rly benefiting (from the deplete changes)
lilac stag
I’m hopeful the lower keys 6-7 have a better bridge to get to vault keys now
vestal escarp
like rn having some keys like dawn or ara at low levels like 14-15 is better cause it's an ez +2
tribal blade
i think it'll still help the mid range weekly keyers
they'll be able to have a perma 10
vestal escarp
if say it cant go below 16 it's always a hardish run
tribal blade
and doing their weekly keys will be a lot less headache
tribal blade
if say it cant go below 16 it's always a hardish run
ahhhhh i see what you mean
vestal escarp
sure overall is a great qol change
tribal blade
but i imagine you'll still be able to deplete your own key with the npc
vestal escarp
but for the upper end that they specifically targeted, i'd say they tried but not sure if they succedeed
tribal blade
because or else you could never use your key to help out other people
WELL i went into this season being like "damn, them removing push/dead weeks is such a great change"
and then it actually kinda ended up being exhausting
because it meant you had to be on the grind 24/7 to compete
lilac stag
was it that or just the dungeons?
tribal blade
so this change coudl be that too
vestal escarp
still a great change
lilac stag
I enjoy the change in affixes but I’m pretty sure I’m in minority.
tribal blade
the only affix issue right now is challenger's peril
lilac stag
I mean having them in keys. I like the freshening up
tribal blade
and they're literally doubling down on it
which is sad
BUT challenger's peril will only exist for keys 12 or higher
lilac stag
Is it doubling down or balancing out the easier to deal with casts and less tank busters?
Plus the nondeplete
lilac stag
right but you got a lot of QoL improvements and they still want push keys to be a real challenge
What else are they going to modify?
vestal escarp
What else are they going to modify?
wdym
lilac stag
And I maybe reading it wrong so feel free to correct me…
- no deplete.
- slowed down cast times which should make thing a way easier on the top teams.
- lessened tank busters
What else are they going to do besides mob health scaling to keep difficulty of high end still really difficult beside doubling down on the peril?
tribal blade
maybe this is a stupid take, but the key level going higher kinda takes care of that
i feel
lilac stag
Hopefully that makes sense. I’m generally curious. Top teams want a challenge, what challenge do they want if they’re generally making teamwork needed easier.
tribal blade
i think once the keys get to title range and higher the difficulty of the keys become the challenge
and challenger's peril just creates a toxic feeliing towards people dying
lilac stag
top teams shouldn’t be dying if the teamwork is easier, no?
vale pine
peril just punishes you twice for mistakes
vestal escarp
but the challenge is imaginary, if keys as whole get easier higher range just moves up
vale pine
because you not only lose the time and potential progression, your timer also goes down
lilac stag
cast times and tanks eating shit non stop were the complaints I usually heard
tribal blade
peril just punishes you twice for mistakes
it's such a bad feeling
i think dying is already bad enough, doesn't need to be even worse
alpine wraith
it is like getting stuck in a joint lock
you know it is joever
but you still have to try and get out
lilac stag
I’m indifferent either way since I won’t push it, but I’m always curious what the desire really is. Just seeing score or having a challenge that’s near impossible levels.
lilac stag
Peril to me just drops the high end key level ceiling down
lilac stag
Each season the top key numerically changes.
but maybe that’s an ultra simplistic view of it
alpine wraith
peril is also a psycho affix
tribal blade
it'll be higher next season for sure
alpine wraith
making morale go hard
tribal blade
since they're removing the damage portion of the scaling past 12
at least i think i read that right
12 and up just increases hp more
vestal escarp
12 and up is the same 10%
lilac stag
I’m glad they in general acknowledged a bit of issues. I think sorting out your 1% is going to take more iterations. It’s like mythic nerfs after rwf to me. Peril is the gatekeeper for rwf key folk.
vestal escarp
below is 7%
lilac stag
so it feels really shit at times for HoF key people
tribal blade
i thought it was something about guile not increasing both dmg and hp 12 and up and just hp now
but i have a cold right now so i'm foggy
lilac stag
no fun
vestal escarp
yeah peril is bad at all ranges
tribal blade
i think i woke up at least 6-7 times last night alternating between being too cold or too hot 😦
vale pine
I don't think all systems need to be designed to feel good
vale pine
but systems which only create bad feedback should typially be looked at
tribal blade
the day blizz finally figures out how to design M+ to please everyone
vale pine
maybe there is a way to rework the affix to feel fair
tribal blade
will be something
lilac stag
I don’t think that’s a realistic goal
Playrate increase would be realistic.
How are they going to please all “mythic” raiders
they can’t
We want 10 man’s yadda
vale pine
you can easily increase mythic+ play rate by:
- giving out more loot
- making the key levels for loot "easy"
both is why it was such a successful system
lilac stag
delete augvoker may please everyone.
vale pine
and also why it struggled more in TWW s1
idle aurora
So I was watching a YouTube video of a dude running a necrotic wake 15. He held the
Big combo for like a minute and a half and just did a mini combo every pack is this normal vs always be sending?
I thought holding that long for boss was a long ass time but I’m not doing 15s lol
lilac stag
If it was 90 seconds likely didn’t go as planned
tribal blade
So I was watching a YouTube video of a dude running a necrotic wake 15. He held ...
that means he lost an entire cast of major cds
likely he misjudged how long it would take to kill the packs leading up to the boss
or the group dropped in damage/had deaths
lilac stag
Hard to play perfectly
tribal blade
i've done that before for sure
many times
it's hard to know sometimes exactly how long it'll take to move through packs
so my general philosophy now is just send on cd
unless you know for a fact you need cds at a precise time
even if it means you start a boss with a lot of time left to wait for all your cds
idle aurora
Ok did t know if I was missing something
It’s so complicated when not on dummies lol
still trellis
so what you are saying is, that im only graylogging every fight because i wanna learn faster
totally agree
lilac stag
fallow nimbus
If you have less players on a class then every place on the ladder is more impactful
I had purple logs with like rank 30, the assa rogue got orange with 300
keen dome
Ye. I'm very proud of my high parses this season as Sub because it's so competitive. Makes me feel confident in my ability to push the purple button
fallow nimbus
I need a good court log, but i get sabotaged everytime
Everything went smooth then i get killed by someone not moving after pull right before cds go into the last amp 
void hound
Ye. I'm very proud of my high parses this season as Sub because it's so competit...
nice job gamer
void hound
If you have less players on a class then every place on the ladder is more impac...
yes, its also worthy to consider the makeup of a certain playerbase
as gestalt pointed out, sub is probably played by better players on average which makes parsing more competitive
alpine wraith
im cursed on court i cant get yellow logs because boss dies before last amp with cds
smh
fallow nimbus
Nothing beats the sub player base in nyalotha
void hound
my cursed boss is kyveza
every good pull is a wipe, every bad pull is a kill
makes me wish for smolderon, where you could always parse
alpine wraith
ah yea ky veza is also blue forever for me
worn cape
I have been trying to tell my guildmaster that, but he doesn't believe me 😭
fallow nimbus
Cloak the charge, game the intermission
void hound
if you cloak kingsbane, does it go off immediately?
fallow nimbus
Cloak before you get it
alpine wraith
it has to be 1 sec cloak
that reminds me in the end i could not do the court or queen guide
because my guild disbanded
wonder if it makes sense doing it now
void hound
so you cloak the charge and you dont get the queensbane?
alpine wraith
yea
fallow nimbus
Then as deathstalker you have evasion with 20% and elu feint
void hound
thats useful, cause playing the second charges fucks your timings up hard
alpine wraith
you still have to move to the right place
alpine wraith
but you can just step afterwards
void hound
but thats like 3 second downtime, vs 8 or so playing queensbane ethically
still trellis
yes, its also worthy to consider the makeup of a certain playerbase
as gestalt p...
i got you guys on the first few bosses, when i went in with my full assa gear and green parsed
void hound
i got you guys on the first few bosses, when i went in with my full assa gear an...
chyup
still trellis
i think my first bloodbound kill was as sub, when we were wiping and i jokingly specced sub
all of a sudden boss died
fallow nimbus
Don't forget to not use contract at blood
still trellis
uhm, yeeeeee
that
(i think my coldblood sectech macro also didnt work because i had it skilled before as assa and didnt relog)
void hound
in terms of rekills and parsing i think its slightly better than last tier
ansurek and silken court are way more fun than tindral and fyrakk (more room to optimize)
kyveza is a hard downgrade from smolderon
ovinax is obv completely dependant on your raid
void hound
Don't forget to not use contract at blood
why is that
fallow nimbus
It doesn't hit
dusty copper
So what do we hit after this opener? When should I press dance again?
currently practising the rotation on dummies, ive never played sub in m+
hazy breach
As soon as the previous dance has ended
Then after youre done with your burst (aka no more flag/blades)
You typically dance&symbols together, but make sure you have 2 for the next burst
Or be able to use 2 in your next burst, a good rule of thumb is to have 1 dance charge and atleast 40s left on your second dance when you press flag because then you'll be able to get 2 in your burst
dusty copper
Cool, ill try practising some more, thanks!
idle aurora
If you have less players on a class then every place on the ladder is more impac...
This is so real lol. All the people who play sub are like long time chads. Even when I’m super happy with my play I look at parse and go WTF!?!? Then realize it’s hyper competitive lol.
void hound
This is so real lol. All the people who play sub are like long time chads. Even ...
yeah dont get discouraged
hard spec + sweaty base
lilac stag
At lot depends on overall guild quality as well. Reclearing mythjc early? Def advantage if you’re trying to parse vs late in the tier CE guilds that stop reclears normally quite early.
Good speed kills go a long way helping.
hazy breach
@pliant topaz Bruh, see if you can spot the difference between these two pictures
Imagine they actually fix a bug, but this is the bug they fix, it doesnt work with gloomblade either from the front 
hazy breach
They mightve fixed some other old stuff too, ill go through it soonish
vestal escarp
this is not a fix tho, goonblade is broken
twilit phoenix
Speak for yourself 
hazy breach
Sectech works with blades now atleast
hazy breach
And theyve added nimble to the whitelist for fazed
vestal escarp
Imagine they actually fix a bug, but this is the bug they fix, it doesnt work wi...
were you talented into improved backstab for the gb tests?
hazy breach
were you talented into improved backstab for the gb tests?
Yes
twilit phoenix
And theyve added nimble to the whitelist for fazed
What does this mean?
vestal escarp
oh then it0s just the gb tooltip lying
leaden prairie
so sub finally make snese? i can press my cooldown before i press my highest damaging ability instead of after?
twilit phoenix
Let’s fucking go
vestal escarp
i think we discussed it at start of expac when they fixed improved stab
twilit phoenix
so sub finally make snese? i can press my cooldown before i press my highest dam...
vestal escarp
goonblade tooltip lies and puts fw only on back from crits
hazy breach
so sub finally make snese? i can press my cooldown before i press my highest dam...
It shouldnt change anything really, it already worked on the phys part (aka the initial hit). Now it just works on the clones too
leaden prairie
Ye sure
hazy breach
But tbf theres not much difference between before/after sectech, main thing is that its after the strike
leaden prairie
But it didn't before
Like surely it'd good to amp your biggest damage ability right
Or is it not enough to matter there is now ay
hazy breach
Before:
Phys hit > cast blades > clones hit but doesnt work with blades
After:
Phys hit > cast blades > clones hit and works with blades
alpine wraith
isnth that the big part
you still use it after before clones hit
but now get extra dam
vestal escarp
nimble and shblades i guess till nada?
haughty mural
Sectech works with blades now atleast
big
alpine wraith
hey baby steps
mint swift
It shouldnt change anything really, it already worked on the phys part (aka the ...
Wait what happened
alpine wraith
only took like 3-4y
keen dome
Maybe RS is fixed, too? Right??
alpine wraith
better now than never
rs with finality unlikely yo be fixed and with blades too maybe but hey i cant really try it but lets see
hazy breach
Maybe RS is fixed, too? Right??
Idk i cant really test, i get like 250 ms to ptr so everything feels like its RS bugged
keen dome
Idk i cant really test, i get like 250 ms to ptr so everything feels like its RS...
Ye, I assumed that'd be the case. I guess we wait and see.
Pretty rad to see some fixes though.
vestal escarp
after that statement i can say yes zac
keen dome
Blessed day.
dusky yew
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
mint swift
What happened with replicating shadows again? Sorry I’m like dead rn. Been doing math for the first time in like ages
And I’ve been doing it for a few hours straighten
hazy breach
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e2w0iHBCVp8K7hdSk1T8RKtUK9lr4FsRqFWd68FCQnk/pubhtml?gid=579089422&single=true
idk not a lot of fixes, but some atleast ig
leaden prairie
i dont think you are ever getting this one fixed, thats how bf always worked forever and ever
hazy breach
You dont have any non-phys things though right
Everything blade flurry cleaves is phys is it not
lilac stag
if rs get fixed i will hapilly play sub over sin in m+
I thought s2 was outlaw tier
leaden prairie
You dont have any non-phys things though right
sometimes w edo
like er was something
the coins or smth else
do the coins cleave
idk i frgot
Uh that talent that make dispatch cleave or whatever is cosmic again or smth idk I don't remember
It happens anyway
hazy breach
Idk either way saying it cleaves 50% of its damage when its in actuality only cleaving 30% of the damage feels a bit like a scam
Since a lot more of subs damage is shadow
alpine wraith
yea coins are arcane
but apart from that ER died and even before it got changed to phys so that is it
also makes things funnier with FW
leaden prairie
Idk either way saying it cleaves 50% of its damage when its in actuality only cl...
Ye for sure
alpine wraith
making it even more important to maintain in AoE
mint swift
I thought s2 was outlaw tier
Please no
mint swift
Please anything but outlaw
leaden prairie
making it even more important to maintain in AoE
It would still be that way tho
Unless they rework completely how your cleave thing works
So that it cleave the right damage type
But like even if they reverted the armor calc before cleaving I
So that it didn't lose damage
You would still have it be physical damage
I don't think they would ever make it so that it cleave proper damage type
alpine wraith
yea that one is not happening
hazy breach
Should just make it all shadow
alpine wraith
making it all shadow as sub would make more sense
yea but this is blizz
actually delete FW and shadowed finishers
spec saved
not like FW is good like it was
leaden prairie
Should just make it all shadow
ye sure they could do that indeed
hazy breach
Not sure why "Shadowstrike" does phys damage either tbh
alpine wraith
we were full phys with short bursts and had a super strong debuff that was worth playing into
then suddenly legion came
then shadow dmg never went away kinda
and things got more krangled as expansions went
now we do a lot of shadow dmg but phys dmg is still there
swift tinsel
hazy breach
after 5+ do u SS - BP or Storm BP
Strike > sectech > storm > bp > continue with strikes
worn ivy
after every sectech u press storm i know to spread FW but
this is not what im asking
after that do i still storm or strike
alpine wraith
sometimes you proc shadowcraft after sec tech so if you dont have FW up on other targets you evis
but after storm you begin bping
as trickster you strike
only storm once
per dance
alpine wraith
wait until you learn the cursed scriptures
vestal escarp
hopefully the rotten bug gets adressed
alpine wraith
you would still strike a lot of the time to get mark
vestal escarp
i meant as trickster hacha
alpine wraith
you always use coup
worn ivy
nice
but SS cost more energy right
what about out of dance
probably only storm
+bp
than u still use coup
vestal escarp
storm and strike same energy cost
uneven scarab
alpine wraith
just delet
worn ivy
its even confusing with deathstalker lol
coz u need to consume buff
as deathstalker u dont use SS in aoe right?,
strike i mean
alpine wraith
uh lets not go into the cursed grounds
worn ivy
coz CTW
alpine wraith
i could explain but your brain would overload
alpine wraith
no well what you do in aoe
is you put mark with strike
and when you have 1 mark or 2 if you are about to proc shadowcraft
you change targets and strike that one
so you can keep bping and also proc CTW
worn ivy
noise 😄
alpine wraith
so you need to keep track of 3 things at the same time
it is
annoying
im actually coping it gets fixed somehow
so i dont have to explain it but future seems bleak
even more with new tier set
empowering shadow dmg
vestal escarp
it's entirely a sim/dummy thing
cuz in real scenarios you dont wanna move your mark
hazy breach
Why wouldnt you
alpine wraith
you lose nothing unless target dies
vestal escarp
losing prio on the target that needs it?
hazy breach
Barely
alpine wraith
what prio bp+ctw procs do almost the same dmg
vs losing globals using evis
and you move the mark between 2 targets
so you dont lose uptime 100% anyway
fallow nimbus
Ctw was with marks applied?
fallow nimbus
"Fix" would be on mark consume
worn ivy
this is what i do as trickster i missed 1 global on coup
but normally i do like this is this ok ?
alpine wraith
Ctw was with marks applied?
you gain ctw when you apply mark yes
so that is why you move targets but it is mostly to not proc DN
you still have a lot of mark uptime on main target
as you only move mark every 2 finishers
for big gains
alpine wraith
using DN is less dmg than using more bps with singular focus and getting more CTW with singular prio is not huge anyway
what it is is annoying for sure even more with blades
alpine wraith
because you can get shadowcraft procs so you want to change on 2 marks sometimes
vestal escarp
