Yes
#subtlety
uneven scarab
Fatebound probably wouldve felt better with sub than ds does
twilit phoenix
ahhh, I see -- so prio is to make sure that one of the empowered finishers from SOD is sectech
makes sense ty
uneven scarab
ahhh, I see -- so prio is to make sure that one of the empowered finishers from ...
yeah always
Supercharging sectech is HUGE dam
twilit phoenix
yeah I find 2nd dance it's always awkward to make sure that it happens
i end up delaying dance by a global just to get a non-dance finisher
uneven scarab
yeah ive trained myself to hold sod for a global or two
twilit phoenix
for enough sectech cdr
uneven scarab
In that second part
uneven scarab
dance->evisc->sod if you dont have st up yet is what i do
if you’re like seconds away from it being up
twilit phoenix
sweet ty
lilac stag
It’s what the image shows you that I posted.
twilit phoenix
It’s what the image shows you that I posted.
ya that's super helpful too, ty
lilac stag
there’s just no real (good) reason to have them macro’d right now.
hit a dummy for a spell and you should be set to get used to pressing separate if you already had them doubled up
twilit phoenix
yeah I think it's just a matter of getting more reps in
Been jumping into keys as sub more
sick jackal
now i just need to swap our dks over to red
We just had one
left ledge
Are those
Court rankings
I don’t think I’ve ever actually done good dps on court
I just cba to optimize timing
Wait nvm I take that back I’m rank 4
I’m cracked at court
Just have those timings natty in my brain you smell me
wet cave
I am a low level sub rouge...later on when I end up doing heroic/mythic+ dungeons when do I press secret technique?
Also for future reference what is the easiest way to get to shadowlands so I can acquire flagellation?
twilit phoenix
Also for future reference what is the easiest way to get to shadowlands so I can...
wdym by acquire flag
it's in the sub tree :0
chrome palm
Flagellation is a talent now you don’t need to go to the shadowlands
wet cave
Yay
chrome palm
You always press secret technique during shadow dance and symbols of death, usually the second finisher until you get your 4 set
wet cave
Where in the tree?
twilit phoenix
Where in the tree?
wind canopy
You can type Flag in the search bar of the talent tree and it’ll show you btw
wet cave
Is flagellation a finisher or a big offensive cooldown?
chrome palm
It’s an offensive cooldown that does damage and buffs you when use finishers, based on the amount of combo points used. You can hover over the spell in the talent tree to get a tooltip of what it does exactly
wet cave
So the more combo points I use the bigger the buff?
wind canopy
Yes
wet cave
I did read tooltip btw
Thats probably why sub rouge has so much burst damage in combination with symbols of death and shadow dance.
chrome palm
Precisely
worn cape
Nothing more satisfying that seeing the numbers go up after pressing flag
tepid trellis
just a lil casual 73.5% mastery buff at 30 stacks
twilit phoenix
should be 73.5 per stack fr fr ong no cap
silent ruin
Transmitter orb left the chat
vestal escarp
on god next season sub tier is gonna be dog deuce
twilit phoenix
they're gonna give rogue a lust
group wide adrenaline rush
it'll be called Goon Fury
fossil holly
that'd be perfect
small juniper
(2) Set: Your spells and abilities have a chance to activate a Winning Streak! increasing the damage of your Eviscerate, Secret Technique, and Black Powder by 3%, stacking up to 10 times. Eviscerate, Secret Technique, and Black Powder have a 15% chance to remove Winning Streak!
(4) Set: While Shadow Dance is active, you cannot lose Winning Streak!, gain an additional stack of Winning Streak! each time you would gain one, and deal an additional 6% Shadow damage per Winning Streak! stack.
there we go
love dog shit rng
small juniper
if theres no buff duration im just gonna use 0 finishers outside dance
spam slice and dice
lethal gate
timid pulsar
bro no plz
vestal escarp
shadow dmg
in 2025
"we will force you to play the dog tree without even a bonus that makes it play better"
lilac stag
My new tier set. Unsubscribe Button.
vestal escarp
yeah that shadow dmg
stinks so much
it's not gonna interact with anything on release
lilac stag
Maybe warrior tier. @small juniper you have that one?
jaunty heath
have they done worse tiersets
formal helm
What in the fuck is that tier bonus.
vestal escarp
steel zinc
have they done worse tiersets
yeah most S1 tiersets are more uneventful.
jaunty heath
i prefer s1 tiersets to this
frail kindle
do you lose one stack of winning streak at a time, or all of them
steel zinc
i prefer s1 tiersets to this
Outlaw now has to Roll a Dice, Flip a Coin and have a winning streak
😄
jaunty heath
well never playing that spec anyway since its trash
vestal escarp
do you lose one stack of winning streak at a time, or all of them
house always wins
formal helm
Also love how every class has a paragraph of changes and then there's rog 
jaunty heath
but just incredible dogshit tiersets
sick jackal
At this point it is safe to assume rogue isnt finished witj changes as sub literally has 0 changes
formal helm
At this point it is safe to assume rogue isnt finished witj changes as sub liter...
The way it's going, you might get another sentence or two qnd they'll be done with it
sick jackal
I mean finding the rogue changes took more time than reading them
vestal escarp
oh shit
formal helm
Yep.
steel zinc
I mean finding the rogue changes took more time than reading them
Has it ever been different? Apart from an announcemened rework?
frail kindle
sick
vestal escarp
bro vanished patch notes
steel zinc
You gotta read it upsidedown while in vanish to find more rogue notes
vestal escarp
chat what the sigma is an exergy
formal helm
Idfk
vestal escarp
(jk)
sick jackal
Has it ever been different? Apart from an announcemened rework?
They usually put down 2 lines so we think we arent forgotten
steel zinc
It's energy just spelled like a wow dev would do it
worn cape
Blind and Gouge now break on a damage threshold instead of breaking on damage.
What do you think of this change?
vestal escarp
?
ebon tiger
There's a balance of things that get me stoked to play: class tuning, set bonus, and how the set actually looks. Looks like i'm clinging onto whatever the tier set looks like..
pliant topaz
how does realz keep getting away with it
how do you know hes on the class?
how do u know its not his boss saying alright mr 10 developers in charge of all classes, youre doing these 5 classes
sick jackal
Isnt realz mainly on dh atm?
vestal escarp
nobody knows
small juniper
how do u know its not his boss saying alright mr 10 developers in charge of all ...
i dont, but its been the same for 2 expansions
vestal escarp
it's not our business
pliant topaz
Isnt realz mainly on dh atm?
they got like 10 dudes working on all classes/all specs
its not 1 guy per class type of thing
sick jackal
Oh thats why the design has been going downhill
Understandable then ill lower expectations
pliant topaz
i dont, but its been the same for 2 expansions
im already not playing the game outisde of raid. might not even raid soon! idk company sucks, game sucks, they suck it is what t is
alpine wraith
i dont think im leaving but im not happy unluck
pliant topaz
like, im still curious about proc pattern of tier, and im sure theres a lot of interesting things i can find in it in terms of min max
but also a lot of them have me worried
bleak wind
is that their solution to op classes now everyone is equally op and dogshit at the same time 
pliant topaz
like not finishing before dance at x stacks / x seconds
vestal escarp
just press rup/snd
alpine wraith
to get cdr
sick jackal
Ill be real one of the main reasons i love sub is thst we have no rng
gritty knot
Idk about that new Tier Set bonuses but 30% BP, Evisc, Sectech and 60% additional Shadow DMG Sounds fkn nuts or Not 😂 If u just barely press Evisc without SD and Backstab only until next SD comes up this is nuts
sick jackal
Just pure skill spec
alpine wraith
well the dmg itself may not be bad
pliant topaz
Ill be real one of the main reasons i love sub is thst we have no rng
the rng is justpart of the goblin theme stuff
like grreedy and stuff
idrc
alpine wraith
but jonny is going to enter dance with 9 stacks and get to 10
and you had 8 but resetted before entering dance
small juniper
Ill be real one of the main reasons i love sub is thst we have no rng
this
pliant topaz
also sub does have rng
small juniper
sub was the spec where u played well u did good always
alpine wraith
classic losing like 90%+ dmg amp
small juniper
now it isnt
pliant topaz
its not even one of the lowest rng specs
sick jackal
the rng is justpart of the goblin theme stuff
I think thats the case aswell but it feels bad
alpine wraith
yea WoD and MoP sub is long gone
vestal escarp
specs that amps itself to 200% sure doess have rng
alpine wraith
since legion we have this spam whack a mole
pliant topaz
like before 11.0.5 rtickster was one of the higher rng specs
vestal escarp
crits matter a lot
alpine wraith
then now we have some burst but still rng to the asscheeks
sick jackal
its not even one of the lowest rng specs
What rng do we have? I think we only have shadowtechniques
vestal escarp
What rng do we have? I think we only have shadowtechniques
coup timing during flag is the biggest rn
small juniper
bfa was cool but undertuned as hell
if bfa sub did more dmg it was good tbh
enjoyed it
short radish
we hate this new tier set right?
alpine wraith
if bfa sub did more dmg it was good tbh
yea super sad it was undertuned like the NV things a lot
short radish
cba scrolling
alpine wraith
we dont hate per se but
short radish
but it sounds omega rng bullshit
alpine wraith
rng basic bitches
pliant topaz
What rng do we have? I think we only have shadowtechniques
before 11.0.5 it was coup and unseen blade
short radish
whats that you lost all your stacks before your burst?
pliant topaz
but now with the new apl its SIGNIFICANTLY lower
short radish
WHAT A FUN GAMBLING PATCH
alpine wraith
zzzzzzzzzzzz
pliant topaz
can someone link me the post though? the changes/ tier stuff
sick jackal
before 11.0.5 it was coup and unseen blade
I play ds
pliant topaz
im curious to go through them
alpine wraith
and wayt for the sadow amps and shit to not work with half our things
also they are pushing DS
AAaaAaaAaAaAaAaa
pliant topaz
thanks
alpine wraith
I LOVE HUNT THEM DOWN
short radish
alpine wraith
I LOVE AUTOATTACKS
vestal escarp
AAs good
short radish
also some stuff about blind and gouge having damage threshold now instead of insta break
vestal escarp
classic giga popular
small hemlock
So do you not like the set bonuses
small hemlock
Is rather something like that where I don’t need to think about it. Just makes me stronger sometimes
short radish
i want to be in control of my damage
small hemlock
The sub one yeah seems cool with the dance discrepancy
alpine wraith
rogue changes
small hemlock
Yeah but you’re not
jaunty umbra
man
reading these path notes and all classes getting millions of changes and dev notes and nothing for rogue
just fucking delete this class at this point ey ?
small juniper
at least all 3 specs have the same set bonus
asian rogues are about to go crazy
they love rng
vestal escarp
sin got it bad tho
vestal escarp
they can get completely shafted by tierset
short radish
man
reading these path notes and all classes getting millions of changes and dev...
sub got changes in the 11.0.5 patch so be happy with what you have
- blizzard clowns probably
pliant topaz
at least all 3 specs have the same set bonus
not really 4 sets are pretty different (didnt read outlaw one)
sick jackal
So what do we say in feedback with all these changes xd
pliant topaz
sub 4 set makes me a bit worried
small juniper
im sure some nerd (fuu) will sim a bit
prob have to do weird shit and not use finishers
if high stacks
sick jackal
prob have to do weird shit and not use finishers
This is scary
pliant topaz
eleem and I did most of the "nerd" sim shit you are takling about for tww
and tahts what im worried about
i already ahve some terrible ideas
to test
small juniper
thought eleem was busy being a star in m+
wind canopy
sub 4 set makes me a bit worried
Seems a little underwhelming, yeah?
small juniper
how does he have time to reply to dms and sim
sick jackal
İmagine having to press generators with 7cps and completely fking our cdr usage
small juniper
İmagine having to press generators with 7cps and completely fking our cdr usage
u can rupture and snd
pliant topaz
how does he have time to reply to dms and sim
nothing to sim right now
sick jackal
u can rupture and snd
snd xd but rupturing just for cdr with like a 40 sec one up
pliant topaz
Seems a little underwhelming, yeah?
its fine but im worried about having to hold on finishers to not risk dropping stacks / dance now having another condition to optimize around stacks and sectech timings / if the proc has an icd trying to play around it stuff like that
short radish
prob have to do weird shit and not use finishers
delete this please
holy fuck i didnt even think of this
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
sick jackal
That cannot happen thats some actual unsub shit right there
wind canopy
its fine but im worried about having to hold on finishers to not risk dropping s...
Didn't think about that part oof
vestal escarp
your mid dances evis breaks your streak in flag
small hemlock
delete this please
Your name sounds like an ikea lamp
pliant topaz
also im gonna bet tier on release isnt gonna work with clones or shadowed finishers
wind canopy
Outside of dance... bleh
short radish
Your name sounds like an ikea lamp
its from norse mythology, so basically sweedish
pliant topaz
*your mid dances evis breaks your streak in flag*
well thats the thing, i dont think you can risk finishing outside of dance during flag
which kinda breaks deathstalker
small hemlock
its from norse mythology, so basically sweedish
Nailed it
small juniper
good thing u back to back dance
vestal escarp
goodbye supercharger sectec
small juniper
u just symbols later in 2nd dance
left ledge
Man good thing they were creative with our tier sets
wind canopy
Yeah, if you need to try to conserve stacks... This tier set seems like a nightmare
pliant topaz
u just symbols later in 2nd dance
do you dance back to back as deathstalker though? or theres a gcd in there between them
pretty sure theres a gcd
or sectech wont be up
small juniper
do you dance back to back as deathstalker though? or theres a gcd in there betwe...
i havent looked at shit only started raiding again recently, i dance b2b as ds as well with trans
else cant get 2nd sectec in it
could be wrong
bleak wind
in my experience it lines up better with 1 finsiher between dances
pliant topaz
^
short radish
pretty sure theres a finisher inb etween dance
pliant topaz
pretty sure u dont have enough cdr unless turbo lucky as deathstalker for 2nd sectech
sick jackal
I usually send 1 finisher between stacks
vestal escarp
it's always inside dance/radio, but very late for 4p
short radish
radio
small juniper
u can always just rupture as that finisher
short radish
thats a good one
small juniper
if u have to
pliant topaz
idk we can try a lil mathing, ur first finisher is sectech (2nd gcd of first dance) so now u have 3 more finishers in the first dance that refund 21 seconds + 6 seconds (from time passing)
thats 27 seconds of cdr
theres 33 seconds
can u farm that back in 6 seconds?
vestal escarp
Dh back to haste mast ig
vestal escarp
prolly new cycle/no move build becomes meta
pliant topaz
nice, yeah idk i havent played deathstalker since like week 1
hazy breach
Dunno if theres a new trinket
But the tier set is basicly just another danse macabre and flawless form
sick jackal
Dunno if theres a new trinket
How does transmitter effect our cp gen?
pliant topaz
But the tier set is basicly just another danse macabre and flawless form
yeah but its stackable outside of dance
so im thinking maybe u wanna dance at stack thresholds now
hazy breach
How does transmitter effect our cp gen?
It doesnt
pliant topaz
idk we'll see
hazy breach
But it makes using sectech within 15s of your previous sectech more important
vestal escarp
catalyst now biweekly anymore?
vestal escarp
not more hero track piece with 2k?
hazy breach
It should be the same
sick jackal
But it makes using sectech within 15s of your previous sectech more important
Ohhhh understandable
hazy breach
not more hero track piece with 2k?
You get a catalyst charge instead
sick jackal
Subtlety
Shadowy Duel (PvP Talent) has been removed.
Spec is removed in pvp go assa or feral
vestal escarp
You get a catalyst charge instead
dont mind me, clown rethoric questions
short radish
Wait shit i didn't read its 3 extra charges
pliant topaz
Subtlety
Shadowy Duel (PvP Talent) has been removed.
bleak wind
I mean tbf, there is probably a good chance the rate at which you get the stacks of the tier is pretty high, still gonna be rng but at least you won't be doing dumb shit like not using damage finishers so that you keep it before cds (I hope)
jaunty umbra
forcing people to pvp 
sick jackal
11.2 rogue rework again
short radish
11.2 rogue rework again
As is tradition
vestal escarp
yeah a tradition at this point
sick jackal
They probs are just having all developers taking turns on all specs and each of them start a rework and just stop
See you guys in 11.2 (maybe)
sick jackal
The last 200 of us decided to quit aswell
At this rate this will be fuu only channel
hazy breach
But tbh sub doesnt really need that many changes besides bugfixes imo
tulip token
hazy breach
So its not horrid to see the page empty
shut ridge
going to make like a pirate and die of scurvy before playing that cringe zoomer quarantine spec
pliant topaz
But tbh sub doesnt really need that many changes besides bugfixes imo
i am huuuuuge deathstalker hater. everything about the tree makes me wanna throw up
but maybe thats jsut me
vestal escarp
But tbh sub doesnt really need that many changes besides bugfixes imo
the stark contrast in how the two hero trees are differenlty helpful to the the spec?
hazy breach
Instead of trying to force us to play it
sick jackal
i am huuuuuge deathstalker hater. everything about the tree makes me wanna throw...
The issue with deathstalker is the darkest night is ST
vestal escarp
(one isnt)
sick jackal
Pressing evis in aoe sucks
hazy breach
Numerically the eviscerate does fine damage
delicate steeple
pirate tier fml
hazy breach
Its doing about the same damage as a bp does on like a 4-5 target pull
It just feels bad
pliant topaz
The issue with deathstalker is the darkest night is ST
that might be the litearl least problem i have with the tree
sick jackal
It just feels bad
This is the issue
sick jackal
that might be the litearl least problem i have with the tree
Whats the big ones?
hoary coyote
Its doing about the same damage as a bp does on like a 4-5 target pull
just imagine it buffs bp too
gritty knot
Wtf is that?!
vestal escarp
🅱️ irate
gritty knot
tulip token
Wtf is that?!
S2 Tier set
gritty knot
There it goes. Finally. No more Aug Meta 😂
tulip token
vestal escarp
they can still press scales on tanks tho
gritty knot
S2 Tier set
It's horrible...
I am a rogue, stabbing ppl. Not some Pirates of the Carribean Black Pearl Captain wtf
But it is what it is...
hazy breach
Spend with slice and dice to preserve tier set stacks 
Or just spam rupture
Wow that would be fun!
But its only a 15% chance to prob not worth
vestal escarp
hazy breach
Why would you be more inclined to play DB
edgy zenith
tier set does increased shadow dam, right?
gritty knot
The question is: are all stacks gonna be dropped with those 15% If Ur unlucky. Or just 1 Stack. That's the real question here
pliant topaz
But its only a 15% chance to prob not worth
15% is a number that happens often enough that when it happens in a really bad time it makes u regret your decision to have woken up that day
hazy breach
Probably not, but maybe
edgy zenith
like 60% big number
gritty knot
Imagine popping ur cd's, potion, BL and ur mentally prepared to fkn annihilate the Boss going all in with 10 stacks in a dungeon. Only to press Sectech to loose all ur stacks 😂
gritty knot
Not Sectech, I meant flag with evisc
hazy breach
If anything we might sit and just auto a bit before dance to make sure we dont accidently proc it before dance
As we get 2x the stacks in dance
pliant topaz
only awward one is if u do a finisher outside of dance during flag
gritty knot
Time to Go sleep for me. It's 2 am and my brain is clearly in a very bad constitution rn
pliant topaz
If anything we might sit and just auto a bit before dance to make sure we dont a...
thats another thing i thought of before, we might need to trac it somehow if it has an icd or something
and try to proc it in dance
but it all depends on proc chance i guess
wind canopy
Could fix it so you don't lose stacks for a few seconds after dance
hazy breach
thats another thing i thought of before, we might need to trac it somehow if it ...
I would assume its rppm, as pretty much everything is nowadays
edgy zenith
i think the % chance to lose is super lame, should just be another flawless form type beat
has a duration, can stack up to 10 times
pliant topaz
if its rppm then its rpetty hard to play around
edgy zenith
obviously goes against the "gambling" theme, but
pliant topaz
but just introduces awful rng to your kit i guess
hazy breach
Ye
hazy breach
but just introduces awful rng to your kit i guess
Thats probably the intent
Casino raid and all
pliant topaz
yeah thats what i thuoght too
but i am a firm believer in "flavors shouldnt ruin gameplay enjoyment"
pliant topaz
blizz seems to think its worth it
civic oyster
Is it possible to get the bis gems for the ring this week? wondering if it's worth grinding out before my raid tomorrow
solemn sonnet
no gotta wait unfortunatly
hazy breach
Is it possible to get the bis gems for the ring this week? wondering if it's wor...
No
gritty knot
Idk but this shit already sounds complicated...maybe just recycle branch trinket again too and force us to play that, picking up the orbs perfectly. Other trinket is Transmitter because it's fun aswell. And then bring back Dust aswell so I can feel like fkn Albert Einstein while playing Sub rogue and meanwhile a ret presses 1 button with no thoughts in the world about anything nuking mobs while having inner piece no stress in the world
That would be the greatest new year gift
pliant topaz
my friends already makign fun of me kekw
jokes on them i dont really care about wow im busy griding league
wind canopy
my friends already makign fun of me kekw
It's okay, can join the retired club 
wind canopy
pliant topaz
then we just get busy 
ing in #1302556579157114921
wind canopy
Yee
tribal blade
wait these class changes can't be real
vestal escarp
yeah dh looking snacky
tribal blade
rogue gets 3 lines
like
i know we meme about rogues being ignored
but
what
the
fuck
vestal escarp
no bro
vestal escarp
rogue got 1 line
tribal blade
oh true
vestal escarp
im still scrolling thru enha notes btw
tribal blade
this can't be real life
pliant topaz
join me on the rift prophet
opal slate
im still scrolling thru enha notes btw
Did it get nerfed yet
tribal blade
join me on the rift prophet
bor for real
i mean you can't even make this shit up anymore
pliant topaz
eh fuck em dont waste your time/money
glorious grind is upon us
we get challenger and egirls
ez
tribal blade
i'm gonna make a forum post
wind canopy
gl
pliant topaz
link it here when youre done
jaunty umbra
we received your feedbacks, working on a rework in 12.0
pliant topaz
u got ur rework in 11.0.5 so greedy
pliant topaz
trickster feels good (most of the times)
id still rather not play the game than play deathstalker 
tribal blade
i mean
edgy zenith
nothing feels bad except bugs
tribal blade
are you for real
vestal escarp
sub could feel better
tribal blade
look at the paragraphs of changes every other class is getting
there's a lot of stuff that can be improved
small juniper
bro, what do we need though
sub has played the same way for 3 expansions
tribal blade
a LOT
small juniper
thats the main issue
tribal blade
WM should work with storm
nado needs rework
goremaws needs rework
lingering should work with storm
small juniper
marked for death
tribal blade
replicating bug fix
small juniper
dfa
tribal blade
shadowheart is useless
edgy zenith
Nado rework is fair
vestal escarp
MfD resets if finisher crits
tribal blade
shadowed finishers is buggy and needs rework
cdr need a slight bump up
finality prob needs a change
edgy zenith
CDR is fine on trickster imo
tribal blade
perforated veins is really abd
edgy zenith
but with DS I agree
tulip gorge
How are we feeling about the tier set?
vestal escarp
its shit
worst theyve made in a long time
edgy zenith
amen
vestal escarp
edgy zenith
idk, I guess my thing is like. the specs that are getting a lot of changes, genuinely need a lot changes. there are like core gameplay issues with them. sub (and rogue in general) functions very well rn. so yeah we can nitpick talent nodes like "ahhh why don't we have that" but you gotta remember devs are working on multiple classes, and other classes have a bigger need for changes than rogue does
log in to new Hunter, seems fun
and this is the true and based take
tribal blade
i think rogue is in a good spot yes
but is far from perfect
at least to me
there is still work to be done
errant ferry
I still think sub is terrible to play in m+ but it’s great in raid
wind canopy
Fix bugs
edgy zenith
honestly, fix all the bugs (except the parry one :)) and it will be very good
like all timer type good
tribal blade
but you can't argue with sub getting literally like x20 less lines of changes than others
sorry rogue, not just sub
vestal escarp
only sin is in a very good spot
which could be understandable from a 3 same role specs class
vestal escarp
but others like hunter mage are getting qol across all three
and yet sin got an waful tier set in goblinville
edgy zenith
but others like hunter mage are getting qol across all three
that's completely unfair. hunter isn't getting "QoL" they are getting made playable
lmao
Hunter has been completely down bad
all expansion
vestal escarp
hmmm
edgy zenith
Mage for sure
errant ferry
only sin is in a very good spot
Sin is great in all content. Sub is currently is a great spot for raid, but sub is not fun and brutal to play in m+. I was hoping to see some changes around m+ / aoe for sub but oh well.
vestal escarp
not so sure
pliant topaz
impossible challenge
1?
- sub has no real form of aoe talents. tornado quite ltiearlly works against the entire play of trickster for example, its unintuitive and a dps loss during blades sometimes.
- inev doesnt work with deathstalker.
- unseen blade doesnt work with storm in aoe
- u want FW in aoe but u cant get it up in aoe because u need to strike (unless u run rotten and do the specific thing which only happens during dance)
- UB still untrackable
- litearlly the entire deathstalker tree
- why is flag 24 seconds blades 16 seconds?
- why doesnt sectech work with blades?
- why doenst nimble work with blades?
- bugs kekw RS bug almost made me uninstall a few weeks ago
- ocup dash still killing people on ansurek, but has no melee animation
- the talent tree is fucking trash
- MoS/SF are the same thing still. duplicated talents kekw
thats litearlly off the top of my head in 30 seconds i can think of more
but maybe that gives u an idea
vestal escarp
bro typed 
edgy zenith
1?
1) sub has no real form of aoe talents. tornado quite ltiearlly works agains...
sorry man, half of these are nitpicks/bugs
jaunty coral
Whats the problems with Sub in M+ imo Trickster feels great? Just talking numbers or?
edgy zenith
Sub functions very well
edgy zenith
2, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12????
edgy zenith
10 definitely makes me want to die, all the other ones except 1 and 3 are unimportant in the grand scheme of things
pliant topaz
UB being untrackable is only a non issue because of how you play now
what if a small tuning idk maybe another buff to bp makes u have to bp again in st?
like before?
what caused it? not being able to track it
vestal escarp
10 definitely makes me want to die, all the other ones except 1 and 3 are unimpo...
well this arguments works sure, but shouldnt be relegated to rog tho, every class does its thing in the grand scheme of things
edgy zenith
well this arguments works sure, but shouldnt be relegated to rog tho, every clas...
yes, every spec functions in wow
but rogue functions better than most specs
not just sub, all specs
pliant topaz
it also has a lot of core problems i have with the spec in terms of damage profile / generating resources in aoe
tribal blade
the last changes sub got were good for sure, but it wasn't nearly enough to completely fix the entire spec
when you see the massive paragraphs other specs are getting to help fix them
that's the amount of attention we need
edgy zenith
Momentum change seems very boring if the durations stack
jaunty coral
UB being untrackable is only a non issue because of how you play now
This is true in the sense it should be in the base UI, but if it mattered people would make a WA that tracked it. Tempest for Shamans isn't normally trackable either.
vestal escarp
dhs poor guys tho, this season got the amirdrassil sub treatment except no dust and stuck on brew
hazy breach
This is true in the sense it should be in the base UI, but if it mattered people...
Well the difference is that you can make a WA to track it
You cannot for UB
jaunty coral
Why not?
pliant topaz
This is true in the sense it should be in the base UI, but if it mattered people...
u cannot trakc it
swift tinsel
Because there’s no metric
pliant topaz
there is nothing in the api telling you its been reset
wind canopy
edgy zenith
why does that amtter though
would that change anythign if you knew when it was active?
pliant topaz
maybe you wouldnty fuckign BP in single target like you did in 11.0.5?
10% more buff to bp and youre BPing in single target again
edgy zenith
why wouldn't you though
pliant topaz
to keep coup for dance....
wind canopy
BP doing 80% of an eviscerate shouldn't be a thing...
edgy zenith
like oh nice, I know it's going to proc, now I'll storm instead of backstab, or?
how is that better
hazy breach
would that change anythign if you knew when it was active?
Well you wouldnt backstab on aoe when it wasnt up
pliant topaz
^
hazy breach
Backstabbing on aoe and unseen doesnt proc
pliant topaz
you would litearlly backstab in aoe until it was up
hazy breach
Is pain
swift tinsel
And it’s not uncommon where it’s multiple backstabs with doodoo energy regen
tribal blade
there are times you get unlucky and you're pressing stab 4-5 times in aoe
swift tinsel
^
tribal blade
and there's no way to know it's gonna happen
edgy zenith
maybe you guys are
I'm pressing storm until I realize 17 globals late that I was supposed to be backstabbing
and then I press it
and it works
tribal blade
well yeah
swift tinsel
Because it’s been 20 seconds and the icd is over
tribal blade
if you let flawless drop
vestal escarp
yeah backstab procs ub every 20 seconds
vestal escarp
never explain the joke
pliant topaz
im not angry
edgy zenith
Eleem has been surprisingly tame
pliant topaz
i cnat care less about wow
pliant topaz
i care(d) about rogue
and im still interested in TCing for it
but dont really care about wow
vestal escarp
the paragraph we needed but didnt deserve
pliant topaz
might pull a koji and just TC while not playing
I guess just one last thought, but saying " why do we need changes" is because youre paying $$ a month for this game. Its not like other classes/specs are unplayable. A lot of them are great, and they function better than rogue. So if they are getting attention, as a paying customer I too expect to get attention, and if I dont, it feels like a direct " fuck you" by the company.
back then I would get mad like others here
wind canopy
Did Blizzard say anything about hero talents being used beyond this expansion?
pliant topaz
but now, I no longer feel attached to wow, dont care about it
tribal blade
i'm angry, but not nearly as much as before tbh because this has happened so many times since DF
tribal blade
i think most sub rogues got conditioned during DF and into TWW beta
there was a lot more anger during those times
pliant topaz
Did Blizzard say anything about hero talents being used beyond this expansion?
they stay until end of whatever the fuck the "saga" is called
vestal escarp
before anniversary it was shitstormy yeah
wind canopy
they stay until end of whatever the fuck the "saga" is called
Was gonna say, if they weren't, got even more issues with sub
pliant topaz
anyways back to league. was fun. ggs
vestal escarp
tribal blade
anyways back to league. was fun. ggs
ilu
wind canopy
anyways back to league. was fun. ggs
One of these days I make the trip up there and we grab food/drinks
tribal blade
wait why the hell did my forum post from my random lvl 40 alt on another server
weird
pastel rampart
pliant topaz
One of these days I make the trip up there and we grab food/drinks
come through! itll be fun
teal prawn
past marlin
what if the darkest night is also proc by black powder?
solar thicket
Is there no aura to track how many charged points I have?
swift tinsel
The combo points themselves on the frame change
You can also configure weakauras to track supercharged combo points
stray plank
do you guys send flag on caster boss before second dash on court to get more burst on damage amp?
stray plank
Is there no aura to track how many charged points I have?
the wa packs i think all track it
!wa
wicked jolt
stray plank
ik devlin one does for sure
spark tusk
mine does. Power: Combo Point triggers let you track it
There are APIs/events to grab the info if you're looking for more detailed info on getting it
wind canopy
I know on mine it’s set to be a buff than just empowered combo points
solar thicket
the wa packs i think all track it
I mean, not a weakaura, an icon that tracks it
its weird there's not
tribal blade
holy shit the new tier sets are actually really well done
but i don't like the rogue one sadly
well not i don't like it, but there are elements i would change
the color scheme is fucking horrendous on the PVE sets
spark tusk
its weird there's not
Yeah, it's just on the combo points in the base UI, they turn blue when you have stacks
it's a bit weird that it's tracked that way, would be nice if there was a simple aura, but I get just using the blue points because it already exists and isn't used for its old purpose anymore
bleak wind
do you guys send flag on caster boss before second dash on court to get more bur...
I've tried it, it sounds like it would be better but can't tell if it was
stray plank
well not i don't like it, but there are elements i would change
big outlaw cosmetic vibes
muted agate
another dk god tier transmog
why does dh look like a warden
are they teasing 3rd spec!!!
swift tinsel
Imagine losing winning streak the finisher before dance so you get a zero/single buff sectech lol
This set has the potential to be quite ass
plush roost
Like most things that look ass on paper
In practice it will probably be fine
Nothing is more RNG than shadowed rupture to me
tribal blade
wait does this tier set force us to play DS
hazy breach
The shadow damage is way better for DS yes
tribal blade
blizz continuing to try to make DS a thing for sub is cringe
twilit phoenix
blizz continuing to try to make DS a thing for sub is cringe
new DS notes?
plush roost
Lowkey all they need to do is make DN reduce sec tec cd to be similar to tricksters sec tec cd
And it'll probably feel fine
pliant topaz
blizz continuing to try to make DS a thing for sub is cringe
nah dont worry ive been told theyre full reworking DS
tribal blade
nah dont worry ive been told theyre full reworking DS
oh damn i think i missed it in the huge notes we just got
lemme double check
fallow nimbus
Make mark a self buff
pliant topaz
nah that goes against the whole point of deathstalker
which is u get a guy and u kill him
except, the only guy i wanna kill playing it
is myself
twilit phoenix
tribal blade
nah that goes against the whole point of deathstalker
yeah i had this same thought, there's very little chance they make mark a self buff
"you mark a target for death"
what they COULD do is remove a bunch of the targeting restrictions
make the mark permanent on the target once applied
fallow nimbus
I think we need the assa collective to get mark changed
lilac stag
Mark ain’t getting changed
The entire theme of the hero talent
Lulz
Rogue and Brewmaster are getting the same treatment
ZERO
rocky ocean
making mark a buff would kinda make it broken, as ds already has a ton of aoe
tribal blade
it wouldn't change the tuning
it would basically be the same as the BtE change outlaw got
fallow nimbus
Sub can deal with mark as a debuff easily
pliant topaz
what you guys are forgetting is that this conversation yall just had was longer than time spend by all of dev team on all 3 rogue specs combined for the expansion so far
cinema
tribal blade
i sincerely hope the devs are just still cooking our stuff
lilac stag
Ya’ll huffing copium out of a big ole bong.
rocky ocean
this tier is broken af or?
pliant topaz
where are you getting these takes?
fallow nimbus
Imagine your last eviscerate before big cds resets your streak
tribal blade
https://tenor.com/view/chicago-med-natalie-manning-no-theyre-not-they-are-not-on...
LET ME DREAM
lilac stag
tribal blade
watch them fix our hero tree problems when we get into next expac and they're deactivated
lilac stag
every fucking expansion / tier it’s the same dog and pony show
ya’ll should be used to this by now
fallow nimbus
I mean if people defend mark being a debuff with "lore" shit then nothing will ever change
lilac stag
you realize theme and lore is important to the devs
tribal blade
I mean if people defend mark being a debuff with "lore" shit then nothing will e...
you don't understand we want that to happen, but blizz most likely will not
lilac stag
maybe not to mythic raiders. lol
tribal blade
because it goes against the entire theme of the tree
fallow nimbus
It could very well be a mark engraved on the rogue with shadow magic to infuse youself with it
lilac stag
I’m marking myself for death.
sly shore
#1 doomer kpb
tribal blade
i mean we did get notes at least
it hasn't gotten to the point where we get 0
teehee
fallow nimbus
Who said you should survive after killing your target? 
spark tusk
#1 doomer kpb
KPB (Doomer Tier)
sly shore
KPB (Doomer Tier)
Fax
lilac stag
Lucky you could find them
fallow nimbus
You are the deathstalker, the mark could be anywhere, even in the trash where it belongs
fallow nimbus
Me when I see patch notes are out
Did you pull up dk for that?
twilit phoenix
pliant topaz
operation save xmas was successful
upbeat sorrel
we almost grinched it
fallow nimbus
You had a few days left
rocky ocean
what's RS?
hazy breach
Replicating shadows
tribal blade
Really Shitty
paper siren
so the new tier set is mid?
rocky ocean
the best out of 3 specs for sure
swift tinsel
Introducing rng into a spec that’s built on maximizing dps in specific cooldown windows, what could go wrong
Also strong-arming into DS
tribal blade
i was hoping the 2 set was you have a chance to remove 1 stack
not remove the entire buff
swift tinsel
Yeah the removal is very problematic
Bc you can absolutely get trolled and lose a large buff right before your big cooldowns outside of the opener
tribal blade
it's super early so they might rework how this system works
if enough people are angy
swift tinsel
Gonna need a ppm gate on the reset
tribal blade
since all the tier sets kinda work the same way
swift tinsel
Yeah
tribal blade
some less fucked by rng than others it seems
swift tinsel
The sin one sounds like actual hell
A chance on a chance for 4 seconds of giga buff
swift tinsel
Right, and react to it fast enough/have the resources to use it
tribal blade
i didn't think about that, you right
considering how sin will actually kill globals to pool
swift tinsel
If you get it right at the end of a chain before a pool
The 13th reason
Villain arch
tribal blade
if you get it during shiv windows with supercharger SHEEEESH
swift tinsel
The pendulum swings scare me
tribal blade
if it procs enough might be fine
swift tinsel
Yeah, kinda thinking stacked deck or high-ish proc chance on the super buff
tribal blade
i think the sub one should include you instantly gain ~5 stacks of the buff when you activate dance
so if you do get fucked by rng
you don't go into dance completely screwed
tribal blade
yeah it's really big
swift tinsel
3-5 stacks from dance sounds reasonable imo
Or as long as you can get max before 2nd sectech
tribal blade
mm maybe something like grants 5 stacks, but won't add on to your existing stacks
so if you're at 3 you go to 5 when you press dance
this tier would be putting so much damage into dance goddamn
round latch
operation save xmas was successful
Lissandra top
most fun ive ever had in league(well there is also teemo,ngl)
swift tinsel
Inb4 casting slice n dice if you have stacks before dance
Akin to BP to get coup in dance lol
tribal blade
nah you would just press rupture right
swift tinsel
It has very problematic implications depending on how it plays out
pliant topaz
nah you would just press rupture right
isnt rupture on tier?
tribal blade
isnt rupture on tier?
it says evis, bp and sectec
tribal blade
i would be happy if they reduced the shadow damage
and made it so when in dance you gain max stacks
but i guess that would go against the entire gamble aspect they want
pliant topaz
thats kinda similar to the dh one i guess
it removes their stacks on demonic and gives them crit per stack removed
idk will know more when its released and we get to play with it
swift tinsel
Gonna camp a dummy and evisc/sectech/BP a thousand times again, can’t wait
tribal blade
thats kinda similar to the dh one i guess
mmmm yeah true
damn sub is gonna be removing the buff quite a lot in aoe
since BP becomes every other global
swift tinsel
Better be per cast and not per hit too
tribal blade
oh it's for sure cast
or else in aoe it would basically become 100% chance to remove
swift tinsel
Gonna really need a ppm gate otherwise yeah that’ll be a huge problem
swift tinsel
Right, could be 15% with 1-2ppm bc you can absolutely get trolled if it’s just a flat percentage
Also
Pushing sub into DS and having lower dance uptime will be not fun
Bc you literally miss an entire sod/dance compared to trickster
tribal blade
yeah i don't think anyone actually wants to play DS
swift tinsel
Which is a whole 4pc window
tribal blade
would have to see if the big shadow buff in dance as DS outweighs that
swift tinsel
Yeah that’s a math question for a later date
tribal blade
dance windows as DS would just be enormous
we'll see when fuu gets on his optimistic take 😉
swift tinsel
If I’m effectively forced to play DS and the bug is still in, I’m not likely to play sub
Or rogue in general bc sin doesn’t look to have it any better
We’ll see
tribal blade
i don't know outlaw very well anymore, but theirs sounds good
i assume their 2pc works on dispatch on BtE too
swift tinsel
I dislike crackshot so I haven’t played much outlaw since it became the only playstyle
tribal blade
they changed how crackshot windows work with the last iteration, so maybe i should try it now
the entire holding BtE for stealth windows was super toxic
swift tinsel
BtE reset on vanish was a good change but I still don’t really enjoy the overall playstyle
silent ruin
why is it that from stealth almost every time, my shadow strike doesn't register ? and i end up backstabbing - dungeons and open world
tribal blade
why is it that from stealth almost every time, my shadow strike doesn't register...
stance bar lag
if you're using stance bar
silent ruin
how do i overcome it ?
tribal blade
make a seperate bind for backstab and strike
pliant topaz
damn sub is gonna be removing the buff quite a lot in aoe
this is something i thought about too
problem is im assumign the proc rate of stacks is some rppm
silent ruin
i do, i got separate binds
tribal blade
this is something i thought about too
yeah we're spamming BP like there's no tomorrow
pliant topaz
which means u kinda get the same amount per minute of spamming something
but u remove at flat 15% per cast
which means in aoe you become a lot more likeely to drop it
tribal blade
sin has the same problem
their is 15% chance to remove on rupture, envenom and CT
which are all 3 you're spamming in aoe
pliant topaz
yeah idk how theyre gonna deal with it
i mean one simple solution is to make the proc % per cast
instead of rppm
but then somethign like sub during blades would go omega turbo brr
specially with double stack during dance
idk
but also other classes dont get to spam like sin/sub in aoe
swift tinsel
Yeah I’ve done my initial dooming, once ptr is up I’ll kick it up
tribal blade
yeah i wouldn't be surprised if all the feedback tells them this is very problematic
pliant topaz
like havoc doesnt blade dance every other gcd
pliant topaz
yeah i wouldn't be surprised if all the feedback tells them this is very problem...
thats never stopped them in the past
only feedback they ever listened to was the dogshit i came up with during 10.2
swift tinsel
Look at Aethervision for arcane
pliant topaz
when turns out you were better off spamming 1 cp ruptures outside of dance
and that got fixed
tribal blade
thats never stopped them in the past <:Surebud:1083827360815665235>
good thing is this time all the tier sets work roughly the same way
swift tinsel
Literally hated universally and blizz said they’re happy with how arcane is with it
pliant topaz
tiersets could work the same, btu classes dont use them similarly
tribal blade
so we're all kinda in the same boat haha
tribal blade
tiersets could work the same, btu classes dont use them similarly
good pint
point even
pliant topaz
arms isnt out there spamming mortal strike every other gcd in aoe
but fury spams rampage every other gcd
so one of them is gonna get fucked
tribal blade
yeah it's weird
pliant topaz
welp thats not my problem right now!
right now i gotta figure out why my ADCs dont have hands
tribal blade
i like the bones of the sub tier
pliant topaz
yeah i like it too
tribal blade
it has promise with work
swift tinsel
With the right BLP I could see it turning out alright
merry agate
Shadow dance making us cheat the system with new tier bonus sounds kinda cool
molten citrus
Oh is the tier set changes on faq
If you’re talking about the season 2 tier set I assume not, they were just announced today on wowhead etc
merry agate
tribal blade
@hazy breach hmmm i wonder how they got the rank 1 key in the world to be NW
over ara
vale pine
not the worse
vestal relic
seems like the best rogue set no ?
tall sonnet
looks cool tho
and i think thats the most important part, drip or drown out here in the streets of khaz algar
hazy breach
<@212854714197344256> hmmm i wonder how they got the rank 1 key in the world to ...
Dogshit key
They can absolutely 1000% do it on 20
Probably even on 21 if they play perfect ngl
vale pine
11.1 Preview Post.
Tier set Bonus: - 🔗 > Reference <
[2;36m[4;36m[1;36m[1;34m[1;32m[1;32m[1;36m[1;45m[1;37m(2) Set:[0m[1;36m[1;45m[0m[1;36m[0m[1;32m[0m[1;32m[0m[1;34m[0m[1;36m[0m[4;36m[0m[2;36m Your spells and abilities have a chance to activate a [2;37mWinning Streak
tall sonnet
thank you fuu
tall sonnet
jack sparrow