subtlety

[strange chasm]

hmm with sub are you sitting on the racial for the next window? since it wont be up for the 1.5min

[hazy breach]

Yes

Its accounted for in the sim and its worth more than getting an extra use out of it by using it on a standard dance

Theres obviously specific fight timings where you wouldnt lose a cast and ones where you can use it elsewhere without losing uses with flag, but in general just macroing is good

[stray plank]

which side is pad side on court?

[pliant topaz]

red misses a burn phase if thats what u mean

[brittle echo]

how are people using transmitter? using it 1/2 gcd before casting shadow blades? what im noticing is if i use transmitter + SB, i'm not able to get the transmitter buff up before i need to SecTec

which im thinking i transmitter early to get the buff going, so the buff will be ready for coldblood sectec

especially the jump 3 times

[native zodiac]

Most ppl pop it on flags

That way you have enough time to finish the jump minigame if you get it

If you get the others you need to delay until st though

[tribal blade]

not sure if every raid does the fight the same way, but seems like if you're on red side you're boned

red side does webs in P3

and get less uptime with bosses together, and less adds uptime

and missing a dmg amp

[stray plank]

which amp do you miss?

[tribal blade]

i forget exactly which one

it's later in the fight

you have to do an immediate move after webbing the charge boss to make room for blue

[stray plank]

it seems like our cleave is based off boss, so it seems like you hit as long as bosses are close

[paper siren]

Sub in m+ when should I be pressing BP. I’ve done a 11 and I got 1.5m with only pressing Evis and Sectec

[stray plank]

5+ targets

[tribal blade]

the way the fight is set up between the 2 groups it's very noticable how much red side gets fucked

on our prog kill of court every melee on red side got a green or lower parse

and the blue side got mostly purple parses

[paper siren]

so in 5+ targets i rotate Sec tec and BP?

[stray plank]

ye

and coup if you have it

[hollow spear]

Is Exhilarating Execution a survivability improvement compared to Ephemeral Bond? Thinking of using that on Kyveza.

[stray plank]

you die on kyveza to standing in bad

[hollow spear]

Also true

[stray plank]

also you're dropping dps throughput to do that

[hollow spear]

But I'm only losing 8k dps by putting my points there

So I started wondering if it's actually a defensive improvement or bait

[stray plank]

bait

you die on kyveza if you dont dodge

we never deal with queensbane

cuz cloak

and we run elusivness so you have evasion and feint for intermission

so only way you should die is if you get hit by avoidable damage

[tribal blade]

conversely kyveza isn't a dps race anymore, it's a just live the mechanics and boss dies, so if you want more survivabilty at the cost of dps isn't a huge deal

but honestly kyveza is not a hard boss for rogues, so w/e you do will be fine

(probably just take more damage)

[tribal blade]

watching them abuse the cleavers for the entire 19 NW run is disgusting

[timid pulsar]

Im red side in my guild, we do all the lines 🤡

[tribal blade]

i only need to do P3 since we have all our ranged doing webs in P1

luckily

but still feels bad running out to do webs and losing uptime

[timid pulsar]

Yea it sucks

But we cba to change it now

Rip my 90+ logs

[spark belfry]

Hey! Anyone maybe has a macro for Shadowblades with Symbols that prevents putting all charges of symbols on cd when spamming key? XD

[teal prawn]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns.
The following macros are an exception:yaml /cast Cold Blood /cast Secret Technique

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[teal prawn]

Hmm

There was one in here

!symbols

[wicked jolt]

How to Use Symbols of Death:
Symbols of Death is used with 3 or less seconds of the Symbols of Death buff remaining or if the buff is not up.
Watch your Shadow Dance cooldown before using Symbols of Death. If Shadow Dance is not on cooldown or if the remaining cooldown is lower than 10 seconds it is usually better to delay the Symbols of Death cast till after Shadow Dance.

[worn cape]

You are supposed to keep symbols buff up even outside your burst windows?

[tepid trellis]

"keep up" is the wrong word

you use it with Sectech + dance outside of major cds, but you still wanna make sure you have 2 charges of Symbols + dance ready for Flag + blades

[tepid trellis]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[tepid trellis]

this one would not cast SoD twice

[spark belfry]

@tepid trellis Thank you ❤️

[hard plaza]

What trinkets are we looking forward to use in next season?

Considering we just became a 90s class

[lilac stag]

Transmitter or whatever is best of what’s released in season 2.

[vestal escarp]

Knife + burst trink

[tribal blade]

feels pretty unlikely we get another transmitter

it'll probably be on a 2 min or something

[vestal escarp]

2 min burst is from priory already

They should just put an agi/strength 1.5 one in the new dungeon and gg

[fallow nimbus]

If we stay 1.5min with 11.1

[vestal escarp]

Sub is locked in until end of last titan

[fallow nimbus]

Maybe they changed their mind again and we go 1min flag and back to 2min blades

[ashen agate]

Is there any other resources on sub besides wowhead I can be directed to?

[alpine wraith]

you can check other guides the faq or my videos/sheet

[keen dome]

the last titan is actually refering to Sub rogue players. titan's of the game.

[vale pine]

11.1 ptr isn't out so we don't know

[tribal blade]

nah highly doubt it

they've sorted out sub's cds for the most part

now it should be on to other issues

i think sub should get 2 charges of symbols baseline

[pale python]

Is it me, or all reports on Warcraft logs are now private?

[tribal blade]

it's putting you on next patch for some reason

can change it back

did the same thing to me

[pale python]

omg, I didnt notice, you're right, thx mate

[lilac stag]

The only positive I can come up with is, while not ideal, the higher simming races for sub are 2 min racial getting turned into 3 min racksls.

basically make whatever shit trinkets work

[tribal blade]

i totally forgot they were redoing racials

[lilac stag]

ngl maghar kinda nice with the defensive

and the on-use already decent.

[vague oar]

Does the log review thing still work in this channel?

[lilac stag]

Yes

Use !log

[vague oar]

!log

[strange reef]

hey guys, is supercharged combo points important to track? my wa does not show them but i dont really want to use another one

[lilac stag]

you need to make sure you have it for Sectech

So yes, but you can do this mentally as well

[hazy breach]

Its not super important to track it but you need to make sure your sectech is supercharged

[lilac stag]

there’s also a WA string for it to show on combo points

[strange reef]

with 4 set its the first cast after sd/symbols macro

[hazy breach]

Although im kind of a big fan of just doing what the baseline UI is doing for it by colouring 1/2 cps blue

[lilac stag]

There is no sd macro

[strange reef]

i macro shadow dance with symbols

[lilac stag]

It’s the first or second cast in dance

[hazy breach]

Yes you use it right after dance+symbols besides the second dance in your flag+blades

There you'd want to use dance immediately after your first dance, and symbols when sectech has 10s cd left

[fallow nimbus]

I have a wa that just puts a little red marker over the first cp

[lilac stag]

I have fancy blue CP borders.

[strange reef]

i have a mcro for sd and symbols but symbols alone on bars aswell to cast it alone when sd is on cd

[lilac stag]

You need dance alone

[strange reef]

dont know if thats alright

well i would want to cast it always with symbols right?

[lilac stag]

Macros are not recommended in general for sub.

No

Eleem legit just gave you the reasons

#subtlety message

If you’re macroing them, you’re not going to get dance on CD and super charge your sectech.

[strange reef]

im following this opener atm

[alpine wraith]

shadowblades goes after sec tech

as you are about to shadowstrile

[lilac stag]

and that’s only the initial part of the opener

What I posted is what you do with dance

Idk who put SB there. That’s wrong

[strange reef]

i read that is possible to macro flag and sb

[lilac stag]

Where? That’s wrong

[lilac stag]

Use together.

Not macro together

[tribal blade]

in combination as in you use them together, not you use them the exact same gcd

[lilac stag]

Very different things

[strange reef]

need to work on my english i guess lol

[lilac stag]

otherwise the img you posted would have them stacked.

[lilac stag]

German guide writer, writing in English on a spec that really doesn’t follow any typical wow dps rules. You’re good.

easiest (not at first) thing to do is drop cd macros

[tepid trellis]

Fuu ain’t German

[still trellis]

austrian

[tribal blade]

i heard he was taiwanese

no wait that's raccoonman

[tepid trellis]

I’m not from taiwan lol

[alpine wraith]

we need the deep lore of RH

we have a global audience

colombian germans austrians koreans north americans everything!

even bac representing the chinese

[tribal blade]

omfg was it korea, am i misremembering

i think i need a brain scan

[tribal blade]

i'm over here representing hong kong undercover 😉

i'm half american half chinese

[vale pine]

[vale pine]

that's a interesting mix.

[tribal blade]

haha ty!

i think it's great growing up with 2 completely opposite ethnicities

but sometimes makes it a bit hard to know where you belong

[vale pine]

Thats easy, wherever you feel the most comfortable.

It does not matter as much in the end, just try to be surrounded by people you like.

[strange rover]

is there any sims on new ring will we use it ?

[hazy breach]

Its like slightly better than a regular ring (0.3% or so)

But its gonna get buffed again

[strange rover]

i see thanks

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/pumping-iron-arnold-schwarzenegger-fitness-gym-flex-gif-15067430

Sorry @vale pine Austrian

[alpine wraith]

all lies just get the one that procs random shit and proc the good dmg ones every time

ez

[strange rover]

thanks , also did anyone test first dance in m+ ?

[vale pine]

ah ye, the classical

just crit/proc more

[vale pine]

first dance is good yes

[hazy breach]

Yes, run it

[brisk onyx]

instead of what?

[strange rover]

something like this good ? theres just different loadout in spreadsheets

[hazy breach]

Weaponmaster

[tepid trellis]

scandinavian + korean is a combo as well

[tribal blade]

dope!

you're basically like me haha

[vale pine]

you can skip tornado for premeditation in this setup

tornado isn't that strong, so not mandatory

[strange rover]

yeah i guess its basically gaining you abit of ST in trade of some aoe i guess gotta sim

also nado doesnt work with SB as im aware of ye? didnt play sub for a while

[vale pine]

Tornado storm hits don't get full cp always

so you are correct

[strange rover]

i see thank you man ❤️

[round latch]

irrelevant but norwegian woman = bis

beauty that oneshots pretty much

[lilac stag]

Italian + Japanese female oneshots the Norwegians.

[round latch]

Italians

Greek women are better

[lilac stag]

not what I said

The mix

[round latch]

maybe,japanese are beauties are

but idk,my head is hardstuck with norwegian

everywhere i went ive havent seen 1 ugly woman

its unreal

[lilac stag]

I’m sure you could find some living in America. fast food nation has a way of killing natural beauty.

[round latch]

no thx,ild visit that continent only for the landscapes and anything of geological interest

[vale pine]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/304343434137960449/1283842520308256858/image.png

[fossil dove]

Agreed

[fossil dove]

iceland has beauties too

actually zero ugly women there I am convinced

they all main sub rogue too

[round latch]

never met one maybe

[jaunty umbra]

wtf is this talk

[round latch]

u offended?

[jaunty umbra]

nah but ur mom is

gottem

[round latch]

💀

cant even say anything these days

[jaunty umbra]

you can say a lot of things in the correct places

[round latch]

shh

[young path]

I’ve been running:

BP goes brrrr

Ara NW and SV I almost always top, a properly ramped first dance dance mac and flawless stacks when u tornado is crazy

[round latch]

i like brew as well

but im playing DS

going for deeper daggers and finality and all

also veiltouched

[vale pine]

as long as you having fun

[jaunty heath]

I finally learned the nasty DS pvp combo. Holy mackerel : V 3 million eviscerate is a bit unfair

[round latch]

yup its wild but #pvp for those fam

[jaunty heath]

discord mod moment

[round latch]

we love u,no worries

[round latch]

i think eleem and armin are right about trickster in m+

its better

i just like DS more coz ive played it for pvp and as assassination as well

im used to it

[steel sierra]

Is this assuming the other rings being compared are 639?

[vale pine]

it is ye, you trade off less single target

[hazy breach]

Yes

[steel sierra]

Thanks

[vale pine]

👍

[lilac stag]

What is 639, 6 weeks out?

how many buffs with the gems get in the next 3 weeks

[vale pine]

there is 6 weeks of quest, so likely

[keen dome]

So many

So many

I'm putting 5 gold on it getting buffs constantly to the extent it becomes too strong and they have to nerf it in S2

[steel zinc]

So in the first weeks it will be as it stands currently useless?

[vale pine]

give me half an hour

(or a bit longer)

[sullen hare]

Will blizzard have learned their lesson from the DF ring and how it mathematically was superior for sub until they nerfed it to pieces?

[keen dome]

Maybe! Let's find out

[chrome palm]

Does sky fury / bloodlust significantly improve cdr on dance? Trying to follow some of the rules I see as far as holding dance for flagellation and sometimes it feels like I still dont have two for it

[tepid trellis]

they both do have an impact yes

sky fury is massive for sub

[chrome palm]

i would imagine. im holding for ~30 sec on flag, is that about in line?

feels like deathstalker is more consistent for me than trickster

[lilac stag]

holding what ? Flag should be on CD. You may find yourself holding sod to have everything ready for flag.

DS is more straight forwards. Trick is more CDR so you need to watch timings a little closer.

[chrome palm]

holding dance/sod

[uneven scarab]

you hold dance/sod when flag has like 20-30 seconds left on cd

[chrome palm]

if im going to 20 i never seem to have it back for flag personally

dance that is

at least on target dummy

[hazy breach]

You just want to make sure you have 1 charge and atleast 40s left on your second charge whenever you flag

[chrome palm]

ty for your help gentlemen

[steel zinc]

So

[vale pine]

haha, moment

[lilac stag]

4 hours later

[lilac stag]

I missed what you were simming. Assuming rings of some sort.

[vale pine]

dungeon slice

also checking progress again, i am not sure whats going on

time flows backwards 🙂‍↔️

[lilac stag]

Reverse sim engineering

[vestal escarp]

why is it going backwards

[keen dome]

It fears the damage we will do.

[edgy zenith]

we did the new racial sims, right?

i don't remember what the end result was

[strange chasm]

Orc still good

Everything else is within 1% lol

Go with what you like

[vestal escarp]

if you crit one extra coup you're the bis race

[glossy turtle]

holyyy. 626 trinket vs 606 transmitter. daaamn

[wind canopy]

Having a trinket you use every other set of CDs vs having every set of CDs makes a difference

[lilac stag]

Orc, Diaper Baby and Maghar top 3

[stray plank]

Imagine if we had an AGI version of spy masters

[fallow nimbus]

Maybe next raid

[quartz tartan]

hello guys i played with a sub rogue in a 12 gb and hes black powder were hitting like a truck, but for me on my rogue it does garbage dmg

[vale pine]

Quick Note for 11.0.7:

• You can read all about the content update in the Official post or 11.0.7 Guide / Ring Guide.
• tl;dr: A new Ring and cosmetic rewards.
• The new ring is stronger than a equivalent to a similar item level ring and starts at 639, it can be upgraded over time to a maximum of 658 (The upgrades are likely time gated and will take 6 weeks in total)
• There is a update to some underperforming race abilities, but they seem to not change much.
• Gem behavior and potential problems can be found in this post.
  Simulations can be found:
• 💍[> Cyrce's Circlet <](#tc-research message)
• 🏇 [> Race Comparison <](#tc-research message)
  Best Gems:
  Single Target:```ansi
  Legendary / Thunderlord / Fathomdweller

__Dungeon Slice:__```ansi
Legendary / Stormbringer / Fathomdweller

DISCLAIMER: The ring was last minute buffed as expected and is now considered worth farming even on the starting item level.

[vale pine]

^ @steel zinc, @lilac stag, @edgy zenith

[steel zinc]

Nice job! Any idea how to sim it faster? Because if they buff it.

And tyvm 👌

[vale pine]

just don't sim dungeon slice and you are fine

especially not on assassiantion

[lilac stag]

[fair stump]

Do you guys run EB or EE for M+?

[lilac stag]

I’m enjoying Mag’har life @vale pine

[steel zinc]

ty for the race updates

kinda sad they nerfed them so much

imo over 2% dps is quite a lot imo

[vale pine]

I enjoy playing Undead, it remains soo good

^

[keen dome]

I'm just pretending I'm an Ethereal these days.

[vale pine]

i use the toy too if i can

[keen dome]

High5

[fallow nimbus]

Why is the baseline sub ring sim just 1.512 mio?

Trickster or DS?

I sim 1.536mio with DS

[vale pine]

let me check

can you link the sim

[open vortex]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tribal blade]

damn races are really going to be making that much of a dps difference?

remove all racials, make races cosmetic

[hazy breach]

Theres been practically no changes to the power of the racials really

Its been around 2% between worst and best for a really long time

[bleak wind]

do we have any negative/positive reatribution with aug evokers

[hazy breach]

I dont think so

Think it all work as it should on logs

Only thing im aware of thats still bugged is lightning rod for shamans

But im sure theres more from specs i havent played nearly as much with

[bleak wind]

I saw something about shadow rupture, but not sure how updated that is

also probably neglegable

[hazy breach]

Well shadow rupture is the tier set from amirdrassil

But yes i assume thats still bugged

[bleak wind]

oh I thought it was like replicating

the shadow part of replicating shadows

or dark brew even, but I guess not if its refering to the tier

[hazy breach]

Its just the tier ye

[bleak wind]

now it makes more sense why its not under 'the war within'

[tribal blade]

ah ok, that's how much i pay attention to race sims haha

[haughty mural]

race sims in 2025

[still zephyr]

on st what is the dif between sub/assassin how close are they?

[gritty knot]

Hell ye. Just realized the new ring is time gated. Well played Blizz...Last time in DF with that ring was already horrible but atleast it was instantly max lv. Now the ring (atleast right now) is horrible too and to top that off it's time gated aswell. Noice

[hazy breach]

Small enough that you can just play whichever you prefer

[still zephyr]

ok thanks just fully swapped to sub so was curious how close they where

[short radish]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tribal blade]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/what-if-mythic-used-deaths-instead-of-a-timer-353781

hmmmmmm

this sounds like removing problems to introduce an entirely new set of problems

[edgy zenith]

that would be such a bad change holy fuck

"alright guys, good job on the first pack, I set the break timer for 10 minutes, see you then!"

[edgy zenith]

yeah but now Void Elf is the worst with the changes 😦

i don't wanna be a dumb orc

[hazy breach]

I dont think it actually works in the ptr sims, velf that is

But i also dont think its gonna change much, its gonna be mid like it was before, but maybe its fixed to work with sectech now

[tribal blade]

i'm doing the felcycle stuff right now

it is beyond me how the secret finding community figures this shit out

[warm marlin]

the owl puzzle is insane

seems like it would be absolute torture to figure out without a solver

[edgy zenith]

it wasn't mid, it was top 5 and looked good. now I have to be a stinky orc

[hazy breach]

Did you read my message

[edgy zenith]

you said think

[hazy breach]

Also if was oversimming by like 0.2% because sim assumed sectech worked with it, but it doesnt

But the sims fuu posted doesnt seem to have the velf racial working

[edgy zenith]

then I'll stick with bis race for now, if it stays around the same power level, we chilling. but that void elf nerf seemed fairly large, so we'll see

[fallow nimbus]

Your ring sim: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/grJ8zZCug5zTCegpq27myA
My topgear: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3Cthxetv2rAd86vGHKR7e7

[fair stump]

Do you guys run EB or EE on m+?

[tribal blade]

took me a while to decipher that

you take exhil

doesn't make a massive difference, but i feel having more self sustain is better in M+

[alpine wraith]

makes a diff shields are always stronger

[odd knoll]

is first dance good joice in m+?

[round latch]

yup

[fierce minnow]

Very good

[odd knoll]

what to replace it with?

weaponmasteR?

[fierce minnow]

yes

or shadow focus, idk anymore

[tribal blade]

not possible

[fierce minnow]

That one for improved shuriken then

[tribal blade]

nah you just swap between WM or TFD

[vale pine]

Interessting, thanks, ill take a look

[vale pine]

^ updated the sim

[hearty girder]

damn sub is so satisfying

first time playing it in raid

very simple and straightforward

[tribal blade]

that's it, bring back dust

i want to see people screaming and losing their minds over sub's rotation in here again

(jk don't do that blizz plz)

[hearty girder]

lmfao

that's so evil

rotations like that are just convoluted and annoying

imo

and very punishing

I have outlaw for very punishing

[fierce minnow]

sub is almost perfect atm... the replicating shadows cp refund bug has to be fixed and tornado needs some kind of rework, goremaw could be deleted again or whatever

its medium-ish hard to pick up and satisfying to play

[hearty girder]

I agree with that

[fierce minnow]

storm could use a bit less energy

[hearty girder]

I don't know what their idea was with Goremaw's

seems pointless?

[tribal blade]

if they put storm back to 35 energy i would be singing on the rooftops

[tribal blade]

it's a legion artifact ability

they brought back

[hearty girder]

I know it is

[fierce minnow]

goremaw was added almost 2 years ago and it saw like zero play

it was DOA

[hearty girder]

They need to do something to make it work or delete it

[tribal blade]

yeah it's kind of a garbage ability

[hearty girder]

I don't know how what they could do tho

[tribal blade]

the simplest thing to do would be to buff it's damage

by a lot

[hearty girder]

should I play Sub on ovinax?

[tribal blade]

but i would rather they delete/change it

[hearty girder]

just hc

i uisually play outlaw

[fierce minnow]

in due time it will suffer the same fate as sepsis

sub doesnt need many buttons, the core gameplay loop is plenty

[hearty girder]

sub doesn't really have on demand parasite damage does it?

premed is such a great talent

it used to be trash

[tribal blade]

sub is way better than outlaw on ovi on mythic, no idea bout heroic

[fierce minnow]

other than you already auto cleaving all the time and you could time your stuff so that sectec hits right when the parasites are grabbed in

you could black powder like a mf tho if you want

[tribal blade]

looks like sub and outlaw are basically equal on heroic ovi

which makes sense because there's not many adds compared to mythic

i dunno every time we do heroic ovi in my guild now we just meme and don't break half the eggs

[hearty girder]

Remember BP damage before all these buffs?

[fierce minnow]

no, i never pressed it, ever

[glossy turtle]

Its mandatory not to do mechanics on heroic, only place you do em is in court and queen

[hearty girder]

I didn't play sub but I saw how bad it was before

now it's pretty big

[fierce minnow]

i only played sub on 1 raidboss this tier

as an alibi mostly

[hearty girder]

this is ovi

managed to get that much BP with adds not even living that long

tells you how strong it is now

[void hound]

yeah bp cranks

[vale pine]

lol

[tribal blade]

my last mythic ovi kill

[tribal blade]

the dark days 😉

[hearty girder]

Remember when rupture did a lot of damage?

DF moment

[void hound]

i think rupture does decent damage now

[vale pine]

i do think the current version still has many min/max optimizations

[fierce minnow]

only if you procced shadow rupture

[vale pine]

just is baseline easier to understand/perform on

[tribal blade]

it still does a lot of damage, it's just BP does 55% more damage than TWW release

[glossy turtle]

I can do that for ya, but wont be for long. M+ rota messed me up sometimes. All of a sudden having to use bp makes it feel wierd. Aaand also cause i have only played assa and outlaw for m+ before lol

[tribal blade]

yeah it's very strange, took me a while to get that muscle memory

[glossy turtle]

I dont have a good bind for it

[tribal blade]

it's also been a lot of explaining to people how to do trickster's new aoe rotation in here

[glossy turtle]

At all, like im pressing strike and bp with same finger which i dont like at all

[tribal blade]

there's been a big change in that sense

[glossy turtle]

yeah, i got the rotation down in my head, but its hard for me to execute from time to time

[tribal blade]

yeah alternating between strike and BP is a new thing for sub

usually never happened

[void hound]

only thing i dont like is deahtstalker having a different sec tec cooldow and having to press bp on trickster on such a low target count

[tribal blade]

today i was doing a weekly 10 mists and wasn't thinking

i did strike>sectec>strike>BP>storm

and then was like SHIT I USED THE 2ND ROTTEN CHARGE ON STRIKE

had no FW uptime, which was sad

i actually modified and moved my rotten WA so it's more visible just for that

[tribal blade]

this felt bad at first until you realize BP actually does dam now

[lilac stag]

Nice BP padding

[void hound]

its not about damage is about trickster being different

and the whole shtick is nimble flurry

[tribal blade]

something something prio damage heehee

[void hound]

it would be nicer if trickster and DS had distinct aoe play patterns

but they dont anymore

[lilac stag]

ETHICAL DAMAGE

[lilac stag]

Trickster does.

[void hound]

meh

[tribal blade]

boss damage

almost winning son

[lilac stag]

just tricks the mage on pull

Let them die

[tribal blade]

bro having 2 warriors on ovi

is so depressing

[lilac stag]

you know what’s more depressing?

[tribal blade]

i would legit be doing 200-300k more dps if one of them died

[lilac stag]

Having zero warriors and monks on Princess

[tribal blade]

lol that's rough

wait what

so you're missing warr AND monk buff??

[lilac stag]

bosses get hard, people magically have work or tummy aches

[tribal blade]

that's the most tragic thing i've heard in a long time

[lilac stag]

so we did an entire night of prog to 20% without either

makes me regret not just running warrior this tier

It’s so fucking frustrating

[tribal blade]

that's a big amount of dps loss for every melee in the raid damn

[lilac stag]

literally the entire raid buff wiped out

[tribal blade]

imagine if you were playing outlaw and your monk+warr were both afk

[lilac stag]

and we have 2 monks on the roster.

[tribal blade]

haha damn

[hearty girder]

Do you press BP as Trickster?

[vale pine]

arcane mage op, nerf pls

[tribal blade]

don't worry i beat him by 400k damage overall in the fight 😉

[hearty girder]

Ok I don't like sub on silken

am I doing something wrong lol

I guess I should probably play trickster for cleave

[round latch]

arcane mage is wild ST^^

[hearty girder]

arcane mage only has st

leave them be

[round latch]

ild rather play frost or fire but whatever

[hearty girder]

same

frost

[round latch]

not rly advocating to nerf them or anything

[hearty girder]

I know, i wasn't serious

[pliant hill]

hello everyone! after a few years of not playing rogue im finally feeling the urge to be a sneakyboi again and recently started playing my rogue again. But it's been a 3 exp hiatus. Wich spec is to be prefered nowadays? I've almost always played sub rogue (pvp andy) but i don't really feel the pvp anymore and im leaning more towards pve, mythic and raiding. Any advice?

[lilac stag]

Play what you find fun

All three are fine

[glossy turtle]

Trickster outlaw for m+ is a must

[glossy turtle]

Classic im also just playing 10s so i ca practice. So you get kinda sloppy.

[hearty girder]

Thought you play Fate

[tribal blade]

he did a funny joke

[glossy turtle]

Nono, trickster sims higher, tjerefor you must play it

[tribal blade]

i think it's actually the first time i've not hit storm with rotten to apply FW

[glossy turtle]

Trust the sims

[glossy turtle]

Damn, have you always been playing sub?

[tribal blade]

i've been a sub main for... over 10 years now i think

fucking lol i decided to pilfer parts to make the mount to sell, and look at this massive resourcefulness proc

g

g

[alpine wraith]

ez

[tribal blade]

my strat was to rely on resourcefulness procs to make even more out of the mats by making the mount and hoping for a big one

this is the biggest one you could possibly hope for, which is nuts

[glossy turtle]

Wow, not played assa or outlaw?

[tribal blade]

i have yes when i needed to

[glossy turtle]

Like, for raid?

[tribal blade]

like i swapped to playing sin midway through this season because sub was doa

[glossy turtle]

aaah like that

[tribal blade]

yeah for raid too, but now i only play sub in raid again

[glossy turtle]

Swapped away from outlaw to assa

[tribal blade]

no need to play sin

[pliant hill]

combat > outlaw

is sub viable in raids/mythic+?

[tribal blade]

sub is not just viable, it's very good

[gritty knot]

Damn, just read that....that is so bad 😂 Holy...I would actually prefer having like 2-3 "charges" of a key. So if u fail, u can go again. It won't change much tbh because if a group is capable in general of pushing the key, they would push it anyway. And if not, they won't push it in the 2nd or 3rd try either. But it would be great for pugging since maybe u ll see less meta comps and also u don't have fkn PTSD of pugs fkn up ur key (even on purpose because they are just RL scum) after it took U fkn hours to up ur Key Back on track.

[tribal blade]

yeah the key charges thing has been a hot topic this season, so far i've heard tettles and yoda talk about wanting that system

[pliant hill]

neat!

[glossy turtle]

Without reading it, wouldnt it suck? I mean you can time a +20 by just pulling 1 mob at a time

[tribal blade]

i think keys being on a charge system is something very simple they could implement that would have a big impact

[glossy turtle]

Like the wowhead link

[tribal blade]

absolutely yes

[gritty knot]

Damn, didn't knew that actually that they are talking about this. Yeah I honestly think it would be beneficial...it has literally No cons...

[tribal blade]

if you really wanted you could legit pull 1 pack at a time

wait for lust for every pack

or wait for everyone's cds to come back

if cheats proc you wait for them to come back off cd

it would be turbo degen

because key pushers already have buttloads of time to do keys

so this would mean each key would take way longer, but in the long run far less key pushing

(overall sounds far worse imo)

[gritty knot]

But tbh who Cares about that small % of Hardcore Key pushers. This would be great for all the other ppl who Just want to play keys, even some Higher Keys but Not Like +18 or +19s Like Yoda and other crazy peepz.

[tribal blade]

can you imagine getting into a key with a tank that demands you pull like that

for a key so it takes an hour

and now you have the looming threat to get banned if you leave a key early

[gritty knot]

It Just sucks when ur pugging and Like yday U Go for a +15 GB and the 3,3k Rio DK just dies in the first pull to that ground aoe by Standing in it. Trolling the whole key

[glossy turtle]

Dude it would suck

Well yeah, but i mean that is a part of it

[tribal blade]

yeah that's just high key pushing

[glossy turtle]

Key lvl doesnt matter if you have all the time in the world

[tribal blade]

there's nothing that will fix people dying in dumb ways bricking keys

[gritty knot]

Well I don't have that time 😂 but atleast I can kick that DK then and Go for it again. Would make me less salty for.sure

[glossy turtle]

Had a 3,2 k pala tank, wipe us 5 times.

It happens

[tribal blade]

your key would be over then unless you 4 man the dungeon

[glossy turtle]

I stopped playing m+ keys for this season, pugging cot made me want to delete the game

[tribal blade]

unless you're talking about key charges

[gritty knot]

Ye Key charges

[glossy turtle]

So now im just learning sub for m+

[tribal blade]

and we're mixing up conversations if you are

yeah we're talking about deaths instead of timer haha

[gritty knot]

I think we did ye😂 the whole time I was only talking about Key charges hahahahaha

[tribal blade]

oh yeah keys being on charges is a no brainer

[gritty knot]

That death Timer Thing is horrible 😂

[tribal blade]

it's a very simple solution that goes a long way

i don't think a single person could argue keys having charges being a bad thing

even if it's just 2 charges

[gritty knot]

Damn we Just Had a whole convo mixing up Things 😂

[tribal blade]

so you get 1 try for shit happens

[tribal blade]

dw happens 😉

[gritty knot]

Ye exactly my thought. It has literally no negative effects in any way

[tribal blade]

it also means you aren't getting rid of depleting, which i know people want, but i think that's a really bad idea

[glossy turtle]

Well there is, it kinda kills the competetiveness of higher keys, tbh. Since you can just play it more. But i mean doesnt matter for the majority of players.

But how would you get charges?

[tribal blade]

the idea is every key starts with 2 charges

or w/e charges

and then i'm guessing when it changes levels it gains full charges back

so instead of 1 try per key you get several

which i think is a healthier way for the system to work

[gritty knot]

Ye and also they could watch the progress closely and like rn +19 is the max on some Dungeons. So they could make +18 Keys and upwards have no charges for the 000,1% If Hardcore m+ pushing Playerbase. And everything below that has Like 2 or 3 charges. That's it...

[glossy turtle]

Idk i just want the challenger peril removed or whatever its called

It sucks

If its taken away, im happy

[tribal blade]

i think nobody likes it

it's probably one of the most toxic affixes ever put in the game

it actively breed toxicity in keys

because everyone loses their minds when someone messes up

it invites EVEN MORE hostility into a game mode that already has quite a bit of it

my guildies have told me stories of people in low keys having 1 wipe and leaving the key because "lost 1 min key is over"

bruh in an 8, cmon

[glossy turtle]

They are just delusional.

[tribal blade]

they see people doing that at the top end keys and think that's the move haha

monkey see monkey do

[gritty knot]

I was in Ara +14 a few days ago. We had just killed the last mini boss and we had 3 deaths until that point. But it still only took us around 6 minutes and from the timer perspective clearing that first area in less than 6 minutes makes it still possible to even ++ on 14. So instead of pulling the boss, the tank wrote "it's gg guys" and left the Key 😂

[tribal blade]

damn that's rough

[vestal escarp]

my week is basically over

go next

[tribal blade]

why didn't you roll it into a better key

how dare you

(i'm so sorry)

[vestal escarp]

THATS THE REROLL

[tribal blade]

oh NOOOO

tf was it SV

who knows, you could throw it up in queue and get a huge 4 stack who decide to bless you with a run

i've timed so many hard keys over the seasons that way

[vestal escarp]

nah bro

to time gb 16 you need 1 month prep with full echo team

[tribal blade]

haha true

i can't imagine timing a 16 GB with no comms

drop to 15 and reroll again?

[vestal escarp]

drop to 15 and que

and depleto

[tribal blade]

i've had those cursed runs where your key gets depleted over and over again 4-5 times in 1-2 hours

whenever people say "just run your own key"

that's the hell you're living in

[lilac stag]

just don’t run keys.

https://tenor.com/view/mackcrypto-gif-3886146933245055908

[tribal blade]

TRUE

been doing achievements and stuff for a month since stopping key pushing, it's been nice

working on the felcycle right now

[vestal escarp]

i need to push

not "i wanna"

i need

[vale pine]

11.0.7 looks fairly meh too

[tribal blade]

it seems generally the mid season patch content tends to be kinda weak

[lilac stag]

Maybe they could use mid season to fix all the class/spec bugs for everyone

here have a ring instead

In 6 weeks

[cloud rover]

They will prolly buff it another 50% before release

so its really good

🙂

[glossy turtle]

Yeah, the same with comp as well. Silce they NEED a prot pala to do a 19, a random dude NEEDS a prot pala for his 8

[plush roost]

My brother and my gf are both super causal players in their own ways. The people Growl would consider "The Mole People". They actually looo forward to the mid patch cause it's got a cool ring transmog and it's more questing content

More collector stuff

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

Number go up!!!

[plush roost]

Tbh having them to chat to from time to time made me realize that most of the people I play with and chat with on the high end actually live in a bubble lol

[keen dome]

You do find some pretty good crossover, too.

I know a few people who are high end players and massive collectors.

[plush roost]

Yeah my old GM is a mega collector has like every pet

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

One of my guildies has one of the best pet collections in the world and every toy. And I think most mounts now?

She is very powerful

[plush roost]

Idk its just sometimes i see the wow subreddit complaining and I'm like, maybe its just not content for you??

[keen dome]

There's so much to do in WoW, and it is frustrating when the thing you enjoy the most isn't as enjoyable.

but there's a lotta things to do. Like pet battles or fishing or mount collecting or RP or transmog collecting

More content than any other game, I think. But it's not for everyone.

It's why evergreen systems are so healthy for the game (see: FF14's approach) as it builds onto content for everyone to engage with.

[plush roost]

Mfw my gfs first character was leveled through 40-50 by only pet battling once she discovered it lol

[keen dome]

Hell yes

[orchid sand]

is bubbling wax still technically the best?

[vale pine]

it does not matter much, can use it or not

if you use it, always on your highest item level and only on one weapon

[torpid silo]

is it normal I have this permanently over my character ? in and out of combat ?

[steel zinc]

Imo I like boosting or playing lots of alts in boost. I recommend that and then saying I will reroll next tier just to play rogue again :p

also with that gold you can buy then the boes etc

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[cunning portal]

That’s the 1 hour tricks of the trade lol

[torpid silo]

and it's ALWAYS here ? seems annoying xdd

[orchid sand]

thanks

[sick sand]

Where can I see rotational. Stuff after the shadowdust removal

I saw a thread or a pin in here

[void hound]

sobtetly

[chrome palm]

Lovely

[spark tusk]

incredible

[sick sand]

when to we send the naked symbols of death I can't find the thread or the pin?

[vestal escarp]

#1271971289396936735 message

[sick sand]

ohh thanks Nike

[vale pine]

you nailed it, very cool ^^

[void hound]

oh i didnt make it, i just took credit in tried and true reddit fashion

https://x.com/i/bookmarks?post_id=1868019620659019778

𝔳𝔞𝔢 (@vaethryn) on X

a while ago i drew all the spec icons very badly

Twitter

saw it on twitter, its very cute

[vale pine]

oh, i thought it was "draw in paint out of your memory"

[hexed sluice]

@soft spindle gamer 🫡

[tribal blade]

oh yeah for sure! great point

[tribal blade]

it's actually funny you say that, my guild also has one of the top toy collectors in the world

i think he fell behind recently because he's not playing as much, but at one time he had the number 1 toy collection

i remember him saying he was only missing toys that were unobtainable

[glossy turtle]

for huge burst windows, im talking like lust windows. do we bother getting snd and rupture up? or just wanna slam as many BPs as possible?

[hazy breach]

Snd should always be up

[glossy turtle]

okok, what abt rupture?

[hazy breach]

Depends on how long things live

[glossy turtle]

idk its an 11, things die pretty quick

[tribal blade]

https://ham.io/watcher-solver/

thank god i found this

for the warden part of the secret

[vagrant sinew]

isnt it linked in the guide

[lilac stag]

Imagine reading a guide when you’re on a class discord

What’s next, checking pins?

Smh my head

[short radish]

okay lets not get too crazy

[fading elk]

hi, wondering why sub is played so little? it seems to perform pretty well

[short radish]

because rogue is the least played spec in the game

or 2nd least spec next to evokers

assi was/is viewed as the easiest spec and sub is viewed as the hardest rogue spec

[pliant flame]

i thought outlaw was more difficult

[dry plank]

Outlaw is difficult to execute but easy to understand. Sub in general hard to understand but easier to execute

[fading elk]

sorry im not familiar with this mechanic, what makes eviscerate apply slice and dice? is it a talent or something?

[spark tusk]

It’s just a passive in your spell book

You get it at like level 12 or something

Evis/envenom/dispatch just apply snd now

[fading elk]

ooooh i never knew that. sorry lol

ive been pressing slice this whole time

[round latch]

its recently added,so no biggie

(the passive that makes finishers apply snd)

[thorny rivet]

gorila

[uneven fern]

gotta put those in my details

2 good

[hearty girder]

reminds me of this meme

[fading elk]

does this mean, press flagellation then press shadow blades or does this mean wait until the flagellation effect ends, then press shadow blades

[haughty mural]

There is a picture in the rotation section which is pretty self explanatory

But I’ll try to explain it (as example for the opener)
You open with sstrike and follow that up with flag because your next two finisher before dance (evis for slicendice, rupture) already apply stacks to flag
You then press shadow blades after your sectech in dance because you‘ll have premed and not want to waste those cp and sectech does not work with blades

Flag has also a longer duration than shadow blades

#1271971289396936735 message

[vale pine]

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=51667/cut-to-the-chase

[vale pine]

you usually use flagellation and shadowblades slightly delayed.
This is because of premeditation.
You see it in the opener, moment

[hearty girder]

Can't belive it took this long for them to make it work like this lmao

[vale pine]

okay, i hope this isn't too confusing.
But you use fFagellation in the opener, followed by a finisher (you do so to generate stacks for the stacking buff) -- 🔴 Then you delay the cast of Shadowblades for when you don't have Premeditation up. -- 🔵
You get Premediation applied from Vanish and Shadow Dance and consume it with a Shadowstrike in the sequence. -- 🩷
Shadow Dance is used slightly later in the opener, because you want to get rupture up before that, and can do so efficiently with Vanish. (you will typically not vanish there when doing the cooldown sequence at ~1 minute 30) -- 🟠

Note: Premediation makes your next combo point builder generate full combo points, which is one of the benefits of Shadowblades.

[fading elk]

ah i see, so it just means use it when you arent getting the same benefit already

[tribal blade]

imagine if they made premed give snd duration again

i don't see why not if snd is basically a passive now

[vale pine]

There are some other details to it too, e.g. secret techniques main damage source (the clone attacks) don't benefit from it and they nerfed the duration of the buff to 16 seconds, meaning you rly don't want to use it before doing the back to back shadow dance sequence.

[vale pine]

would be nice

[tribal blade]

opener would feel much smoother for sure

[vale pine]

the old premediation solved slice and dice more elegant, but it isn't a big concern

[keen dome]

Hell yeah, real powerful

[tall sonnet]

hey guys i just switched to sub rogue from assa and im recrafting my gear, i had a quick question about elemental focusing lens if someone can help me out

[sick jackal]

in a dance window if i have darkest night should i evis as first finisher or tech?

[vale pine]

secret first

[lilac stag]

Just ask the question

[short radish]

the answer is that it doesnt matter

[lavish lion]

Can/should I macro symbols with dance?

[short radish]

can? yes
should? no

well as long as you have a separate symbols bind

sometimes you will send a naked symbols

[lavish lion]

Yes, I have separate bind for it

[short radish]

then its probably fine

[worn cape]

When do you send a naked symbols?

[short radish]

sometime between your first and 2nd flag

[alpine wraith]

depends on ascendancy and you can move it around a bit

i have a visual thingy let me get it

of course not 100% rigid but with full uptime should be kinda like this

[sick jackal]

do we know which race will be bis for sub with the recent racial changes

[woeful barn]

As long as stoneform exists

[worn cape]

Thanks! Looks very useful. I found the whole sheet in your profile so I'll be looking through it 😊

[lilac stag]

[tribal blade]

instructions unclear

[lilac stag]

Diaper Baby bis

[tribal blade]

i would kinda be willing to go orc tbh

but my guild is alliance

there's some minor things that are a bit easier if everyone on the team is on the same faction

[worn cape]

Oh? Like what?

[dry plank]

Which?

[tribal blade]

you can only queue for some stuff with a full group of the same faction, like LFR

it's minor, but at the start of tiers we do splits, and sometimes we'll even do LFR as a guild to quickly try to get as many set pieces and special items as possible

and if you have 1 horde player in the group you can't queue

doesn't sound like much, but when you're at the start of a tier and are super hungry for gear and tier pieces, losing out on an extra run feels pretty bad

[worn cape]

I see, that makes sense

[dry plank]

Oh it more like HoF problems

[tribal blade]

my guild has gotten 2 HoFs in the past, but i wouldn't call us a HoF guild in the sense that it's our main goal every tier

i'm guessing some people who say it's a super minor thing that doesn't really matter, but i like being able to do all content with my guild 😉

[left ledge]

With Donk claiming the MVP at the Shanghai Major, will sub rogue be seeing any buffs? @ any devs

[worn ivy]

yo bois quick question

do they play deathstalker in M+ or trickster ?

[small juniper]

yes

[tribal blade]

comes down to personal preference, but most people enjoy trickster more

trickster as a whole just interacts very well with sub's toolkit

[worn ivy]

you spam SS even in aoe or

[tribal blade]

i don't have the time to go into great detail about it, but you want to use your 2nd rotten charge to apply FW to all targets with storm and then after that alternate between strike and BP

this is on 5+ targets

[lilac stag]

L

[lilac stag]

You don’t

[worn ivy]

AOE builde with trickers is shadowstrike

or shuriken storm

[hazy breach]

Mostly strike

[worn ivy]

whats the stats for sub in m+ versa-mastery?

i fele like deathstalker is more dam

[sullen hare]

Vers/mastery yes. And you can pick whichever is your preference as far as death stalker or trickster

I personally still prefer trickster for m+

[worn ivy]

can you hit me with aoe opener trickers 5T

shadowstrike - evis - shuriken storm - rupture - shruiken storm - flag - dance symbols - sec tech - shadow blades - shadowstriek - evis ?

[fallow nimbus]

Get snd and rupture up then flag into finisher, now you do dance strike sectec blades storm bp strike bp and so on

You do 1 strike to consume 1 rotten stack because storm consumes 2 stacks (bug)

[worn ivy]

First dance is worth to play in M+?_

if no whats the alternative to get instead of FD

[hazy breach]

Yes you play it

And you have to get weaponmaster otherwise

Because of pathing

[summer mango]

What is "Fazed"?

"3.Make sure Fazed is applied on the target before using Coup de Grace Icon Coup de Grace."

from Icy-Veins

[hazy breach]

Debuff from the trickster tree

[summer mango]

got it ty

[rough rivet]

how would the opener change if you cant use vanish? asking for queen - need it to break the roots (we are already starving for breaks, so cant get an external here). do i delay cds or do i backstab untill i can rupture? top logs all use vanish like in this screenshot

[charred kestrel]

could u cloak it?

[dry plank]

You need 4 times before intermission

[worn cape]

If you use cloak for first root and use vanish in opener, vanish is probably back up by the second root.

[dry plank]

You have vanish & cloak 2 min cd

Use vanish in opener and break out of root while pot and bl is running

2nd use cloak and 3rd vanish and pray for 4th

Try to stay near fury war

[torpid silo]

Is it a bad idea to race change from void elf to dragon ?

[dry plank]

Nope it is fine

[torpid silo]

we don't loose damage from the racial ? Cause having another aoe interrupt + glide sounds cool

[dry plank]

There is tiny difference between racials

[granite turret]

Feels like race is just a vibe unless you're literally going for like +17 or something absurd

[torpid silo]

I mean I am x)

[granite turret]

welp

😔

[dry plank]

Usually people which are going for +17 does not have such issues. They play best option

[rough rivet]

sadly 2nd tomb is ~50s in and 3rd ~1:50 so that wont be possible

[torpid silo]

yeah but I don't wanna play mechagnome xdd
ugly as fck

[keen dome]

Play whatever, I don't think it even really matters at that point either.

Isn't it all within crit variance anyway?

[torpid silo]

yeah i figure a few K damage doesn't reaaaaally matter

i picked up void cause i liked the rift

[vale pine]

you would just use some backstabs, but shouldn't happen

[rough rivet]

backstabbing it is, thanks

[alpine wraith]

you just strike evis then fill with backstabs then use flag

rupture then dance

[rough rivet]

thanks, will do

[left ledge]

Don’t do that

Just rupture after the first dance

Get your cds out before any movement happens

[tepid trellis]

just skip the first Evis instead and let your first evis in dance give you SnD

[left ledge]

Or that

I just skip rupture until after first dance

[hazy breach]

Or just wait until after the movement

[left ledge]

Backstabbing to full is literal torture

[hazy breach]

It doesnt matter

[tepid trellis]

that too

[left ledge]

Yeah you end up holding

[tepid trellis]

since you are slighly delaying cds anyway through out p1

[left ledge]

Backstabbing to desperately get your cds out never the move though

That’s mental damage

Bad for prog

[rough rivet]

ok, ill probably just not evis and start with dance right away. thanks guys

[worn ivy]

deathstalker sims more in M+ rn ?

[hazy breach]

No

[worn ivy]

doo we go heavy versa or heavy mastery?

[vale pine]

both

you essentially go "all in" to vers/mastery

[hazy breach]

Theres pretty much no mastery/vers items, theyre all vers/mastery

(aka the highest stat being vers)

So theres not much choice

But it also doesnt really matter either way

[void verge]

Any recommendations on flag usage when trash dies pretty fast?

[alpine wraith]

not much you can do

just try not to lose casts in the whole dungeon

trying to hold

[main raptor]

do u have a link or resource for ALL your weakauras?

[vale pine]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[alpine wraith]

i dont have many rogue WA what i use for most timers etc is a fork of dotfocus

i dont recommend using it im just old

[main raptor]

ah gotcha

i saw all your dance/sybols and stored combo points weak auras

so u can see with timers

[alpine wraith]

the standalone things i have are from LE i think

kinda stole some things from there

and changed them a bit

[leaden prairie]

why you got a gun in your name

are you american

[main raptor]

im australian - just edgy ig

[leaden prairie]

Australian are just American upside down

It's ok

[spark tusk]

does this mean I turn australian by turning myself upside down?

chat is this real

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/brent-my-hero-aus-top-guy-gif-17971844794065873200

[dry plank]

can human ability break out you out of webs on queen?

[worn ivy]

Hey guys quick question what emblishment we play for M+ as subtlety

[spark tusk]

No, it is a root, not a stun

[hazy breach]

Kinda whatever, but either of the linings

[worn ivy]

i will buy from AH can you give me name

its for M+ yea?

[spark tusk]

Duskweave lining or dawnweave lining

er

duskthread*

fun fact auction house uses uh, I forget the name of the type of search

but if you just type "dus lin", it can take the first 3 chars of each word you enter and uses them for the lookup

Or alternatively,

[worn ivy]

ty

[main raptor]

p3 web stun u can

[stable oar]

How challenging would it be to transition from many many years of Outlaw, across to Subtlety?

[short radish]

no class in wow is truly hard and all rotations can be learnt

sub is also easier than ppl think

[spark tusk]

Despite what it may seem they are in fact designed to be played by humans

[short radish]

and some really smart monkeys

[spark tusk]

https://tenor.com/view/walking-gorilla-gif-25935176

[short radish]

but sub is less reacting to procs, and more planning for events

then you press same buttons almost every time in same order

[worn ivy]

can someone hit me with the trickster m+ talents without tornado ?

[wind canopy]

Just drop tornado for TFD iirc

[pliant topaz]

drop weapon master for TFD

you never really take tornado anywhere

[sick jackal]

İs tfd that good to use

İt feels like i am gonna double dance but my 2nd dance tech wont be in blades/flag

[hazy breach]

It will still be in flag

But the main thing is that weaponmaster does fuckall

[wind canopy]

Oh right. Tornado isn't in suggested anymore

[tribal blade]

ok i have 2 M+ vaults this week, do i go for 3rd

4 keys before reset

[pliant topaz]

bro i havnet had a m+ vault in almost 6 weeks

[rocky ocean]

I don't understand the "25% additional damage" part. Isn't it only usable while stealthed?

[tribal blade]

only from real stealth, not dance

[vale pine]

basically there are diffrent levels of stealth.
The 25% bonus and teleport ONLY works from what is considered Real stealth.
Real stealth is the stealth ability itself (which you can only use out of combat) or the stealth after using vanish.
Shadow dance, subterfuge and similar do only allow you to use abilities as if you are in stealth.

It is confusing because Shadow dance does state to give you all the benefits of stealth, what isn't the case here.
Hope this clears it up.

[mighty crow]

how is sub doin in mythics these days?

[vale pine]

quite good, it is also fun to play

[mighty crow]

hmm i migh switch to sub then. seeing as outlaw feels like a trash fire

ill need daggers now

tickster or deathstalker?

[tribal blade]

i think we need more iterations of stealth

we can pump those numbers up 😉

[vale pine]

haha

we technically have 3 already

subterfuge does not keep premediation, while dance does

[vale pine]

trickster all the way

[tribal blade]

what a mess

[weak horizon]

You all pref sub over sin in raid?

if a bis sub and a bis sin went into a raid, both with great spec/raid knowledge, who is winning overall?

[alpine wraith]

the one that gets better procs

[weak horizon]

[weak horizon]

So it'll be about even then?

[alpine wraith]

kinda yea

[wide magnet]

sub rogue has more swag

and thus will perform better on average

thus sayeth the lord

[alpine wraith]

just crit more evis

[vale pine]

yes, its more fun to play. Sin is extremely strong since beta and there is no reason to ever play a different spec since then.
But fun is one aspect which chanegs this.

[haughty mural]

i believe more people find sin more fun

[vale pine]

doing more damage = fun ^^

[haughty mural]

^^

[violet rivet]

I've been playing sin since the start of the xpac, not even cause it was good just cause I enjoyed the gameplay but switching to sub right now to get some fresh air and certainly having a blast

[vale pine]

i can't change tuning decisions, the first patch was focused on make people play sin tuning wise.
They now, when nobody plays anymore, did make sub a bit more competitive but i don't see a reason why you wouldn't stick to sin tbh.

it is even after sub got buffed the best or equally good choice for content, which says a lot about the initial tuning ^^

[still trellis]

ye but you see, my issue with sub is THAT GOD DAMN TRANSMITTER THAT I STILL NEVER GOT

[tribal blade]

people still think sub is dogshit because of how TWW started

[still trellis]

i keep losing it to healers in raid and vault aint giving me anything

[tribal blade]

the pain of not having transmitter, and then the pain of when you finally get it learning how to use it 😉

it is not a fun trinket to use

[vale pine]

I rly want to go into statistics

this patch feels like a very low point in player engagement for wow

[still trellis]

i have it on my mage and i also already got it on feral (didnt take it there)

[sick jackal]

then pain of it summoning a orb that either goes into a egg a swirly or a frontal and you cant take it

[still trellis]

so i know how it is to use

[vale pine]

almost feels like shadowlands

[tribal blade]

we were having this discussion in my guild disc earlier, it really is

one of my guildies said she feels like normally people start raid logging later into the tier

also she said it's strange that for a brand new expansion people started raid logging relatively quickly

[still trellis]

ngl, i think many people already got a burnout in the first few weeks where you couldnt do anything

but they forced themselves to do something

[tribal blade]

not entirely sure, but max brought up a good point that there's been a string of really high profile games coming out

back to back recently

[vale pine]

WoW is not that impacted by it

as sad as it sounds, most wow players only play wow

[weak horizon]

Next season is gonna be even worse, can't believe they really decided darkflame cleft is a good m+ dungeon

[tribal blade]

could also be the aging population of wow don't have as much time to play anymore

[vale pine]

blizzard games has extremely loyal fans, it is why other mmorpg's stuggle to overtake it

[vale pine]

I think its a consequence of bad practices

basically there is a trend in gaming which applies to many companies now

developers went away from the philosophy of allowing the player to play the game the way they want, but indirectly enforce ways you need to play games.

you see this a lot with nintendo too for example, where they quickly update/patch even single player games if the community finds ways to break the gameplay sequence

[lilac stag]

Keys suck. Delves rewards are tapped. Gearing alts sucks when it’s still so heavily attached to keys to get them doing any serious content. US holidays.

[vale pine]

e.g. some examples for some recent games:

• They patched out a bug you could use to skip worlds on super mario wonder by going out of bounds (which wasn't hard to do but also wasn't something you did accidentally a lot)
• They patched out a bug which allowes you to play the new zelda game as link (which was incredibly difficult to do)

[tribal blade]

ahhh i see

[vale pine]

I understand it for nintendo, it is i think something speedrunners and content creators dismiss

basically they do so because they want viewers on youtube to have a certain picture of the game

[leaden prairie]

idk about that, i know a lot of players in my guild/friends, that went to play dofus, poe, league etc

[vale pine]

wow in comparison tries to enforce content for diffrent reasons, engagement

[leaden prairie]

mostly talking high end players also, which you would think only play wow?

[vale pine]

i think the younger audience does, but the wow playerbase is 90% long time players

[leaden prairie]

there has been a lot of focus on class hardocre also lately

[vale pine]

classic hardcore is a rly good streamer game

[leaden prairie]

which prolly sifoned a lot of the old playerbase

siffone

idk

the word

you get me

[vale pine]

it is basically a glorified chatroom, and blizz does not rly need to do anything for people to play it

[leaden prairie]

siphoned

[plush roost]

Idk if its been said yet, but tanks being the most responsible yet difficult role to play in m+ also doesn't help retention. Like I personally am having a blast with the game right now, love the raid and dungeons honestly aren't that bad. But man getting a tank to play is like pulling teeth

My brother who only does like +4-6s has an even worse situation cause that key range is real sus

[leaden prairie]

they just gotta make tanks op man

thats all there is

its so tiring