subtlety

[topaz raptor]

is this actually good

[lilac stag]

Why wouldn’t it be?

[alpine wraith]

not ideal

but let people play what they want

[topaz raptor]

i'm curious

it looks cool

[round latch]

it is cool

[topaz raptor]

hadn't seen anything like that recommended so far

[alpine wraith]

tea vs cb is whatever but wm is way less dmg than tfd

and db is less than getting DD and inev instead of pv

[round latch]

im actually buffled why not rotten though

bro doesnt like sod

[alpine wraith]

yea weird things what can you do

just get more crits bro

kek

who needs FW

[median nacelle]

kush is a heroic raider for vacuum, shouldnt take his builds too serious

[round latch]

bro is cooking

[cursive vapor]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[alpine wraith]

he is a very good player

man did well with goremaw

just accept we are peasants

[keen dome]

Big fan of seeing DB being used

[tribal blade]

kush does a lot of experimentation

he's not one of the players who looks at what the best build is in this disc and just runs that

i dunno i tested the DB build on the dummies and it felt a bit dogshit to me

(it does damage, it just doesn't feel great to play)

[inner kindle]

is it still trickster for m+? even after buffs?

[upper narwhal]

Both are close now

[tribal blade]

both viable

[upper narwhal]

DS probably gives more prio damage

[inner kindle]

could you share a DS build for m+?

guides are trickster mostly

[upper narwhal]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[upper narwhal]

In here

[tribal blade]

check the pins

[lilac stag]

Imagine trying different talents out. What kind of mental gymnastics is this?!?

[tribal blade]

what a sweaty try hard

[haughty mural]

i try different builds all the time aswell

finding new ways not to talent RS

[sly shore]

take everything kush does with a pinch of salt, but it also might be that the builds are the same or equal or even better in practice

it's very hard to sim the real world dungeon gameplay

even with mdt route

so him testing what works best for him is good

[alpine wraith]

yea that is why you dont reaally need to super nit pick always

[sly shore]

we're at the point where all our talents are so bad

that they are all equal

good balancing I suppose

[alpine wraith]

one talent i will fight people for is first dance

[sly shore]

terrible design

tfd is good if it can activate but it's buggy

so

[alpine wraith]

others are whatever

yea it also another thing it is annoying

as always sub has to be

RS annoying

DS annoying

tornado annoying

WM annoying(can still bug out)

rotten bugged and annoying too!

[timid pulsar]

Finally free.. Now i can play deathstalker full time 😎

[sly shore]

I love consuming both rotten stacks

[alpine wraith]

tfd guess what annoying!

[sly shore]

tooltip should say

"an indeterminate amount of time after leaving combat"

[plush roost]

Should make it 4 seconds at the very least

6 is sooo long

[sly shore]

it's not even 6

it's like 10

[plush roost]

Since its 6-9seconds

[sly shore]

[plush roost]

Xddd

[alpine wraith]

sometimes you are at 1 sec

and it GOES BACK TO 5

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[haughty mural]

is it added to our buglist ?

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue

[plush roost]

Oops someone hit a critter

My tfd reset

Tragic

[haughty mural]

damnit i open this sheet and the first entry is the RS bug one
21st dec 2023

[sly shore]

🙂

[plush roost]

Omg

Its the real WoW anniversary event

[sly shore]

there's some from 2020

😄

although some of these can be closed

@vale pine

[plush roost]

Ye true

[haughty mural]

and some can be added

[plush roost]

Shadowdust mentioned

Played DS with tea/DB in an 11 today to fiddle with it

Pretty solid damage, 2.2m overall

But it was an 11 so I had some fat verse buffs

Is it Mandate good for M+ or should i stick with my 639 Crystal

[sly shore]

I did a 10 mists yesterday with a regular build

with trickster

[plush roost]

Big

[vale pine]

i need to re-visit the bugs on github, haven't had time, but most should still be there

[keen dome]

I wish I did 2.29m in 10's..

[alpine wraith]

huge blaster

[sly shore]

the secret is the rest of your team does 1.6M and 1.4M and leaves the damage for you

[grizzled hornet]

RS bug is just torture

[hazy breach]

Tea seemed really bad when i simmed it

[plush roost]

Tbh playing tea today felt like I never wanted it for energy

I just pressed it during dance for masteru

[hazy breach]

Ye you macro it to dance

But we already have like 150% mastery during flag so its only like +8% more finisher damage

And vigor doesnt do shit either

[plush roost]

Oh really the flat 12.6% has DR?

Thats lame

[hazy breach]

No

[plush roost]

Ohh i see what you're saying

Reading comprehension not there for me this early

[hazy breach]

Just "natural" dr

[alpine wraith]

it is just a game of math

it is not the same getting 20% when you have 0

[tribal blade]

tea gets DR'd??

damn

[alpine wraith]

or when you have 100

[hazy breach]

No

[alpine wraith]

the dmg relative is diff

[plush roost]

Me when i spread misinformation

Hehe

[alpine wraith]

going from 190% to 210% is less of a dmg increase than 0 to 20

around 2 and a half times or so like eleem said

[tribal blade]

ahhh ok gotcha

[plush roost]

Today I try the build in the pins

[haughty mural]

https://tenor.com/view/math-teddy-writing-easy-hard-gif-9016309273752180756

[plush roost]

I lowkey like tornado with DS

Spread those ruptures, or quickly build cdr between dances in cds

[alpine wraith]

yea like i said you get used to

[plush roost]

Yeah I played a lot of tornado in s1/2 df so it wasn't much of a learning curve

Just watch shadow tech stacks

[hazy breach]

The dark brew build does better at sustained aoe but st is way worse

Rotten is very strong on St

[grizzled hornet]

i rly think tornado is outdated and we need something new there

[tribal blade]

kush was talking about it, his build vs "ST" build

i think x2 death perception just feels overall better to play

[hazy breach]

Its also better for short pulls

Because you guarantee fw

[tribal blade]

true

[hazy breach]

Idk its only long sustained aoe fights where rupture gets to do its full thing

Where dB is good

[tribal blade]

i wish death perception was in a place easier to get

because it kind of feels like what sub should play like at a more baseline level

[keen dome]

Yeah, that'd be cool.

It just creates a much smoother and more engaging playstyle imo.

Also playing around SecTec is a lot easier to grasp, to me.

[hazy breach]

Main problem is that pv and lingering aint options

[alpine wraith]

i always wanted more charges of SoD when dust was around

now it is ded

[keen dome]

What if we put PV and Lingering in the bin. Where they belong. WITH BACKSTAB.

[alpine wraith]

but its will lives on

[tribal blade]

lingering has so much potential with a redesign

PV is just hot garbage

[keen dome]

What'd you want lingering to do?

[tribal blade]

people have said in here before, lingering should work with storm and strike too

our talents have this weird thing where nothing works with each other

so there's no synergy

[keen dome]

Oh, yeah, that'd be a good change.

[haughty mural]

well you dont strike too often outside of dance

[tribal blade]

i think the idea is lingering would carry over to your 2nd dance during cds

[keen dome]

I'd rather see more synergy with finishers and packing it into dance though. PV and Lingering are functionally dull because they don't make our core play focus interesting

[haughty mural]

ah

[keen dome]

put finality where lingering is

[haughty mural]

i'd love if finality had a bit more power

[tribal blade]

prob just move finality up in the tree and make it a flat +15% dmg increase to rupture, evis and BP

[haughty mural]

brother almost thought realz is typing

[grizzled hornet]

this ! just make everything in dance hit like a mf and noodle hits outside

[haughty mural]

but its just Ralez

😄

[keen dome]

Haha

[keen dome]

Yeah

[grizzled hornet]

yeah i get that a lot hahaha

[keen dome]

Darkbrew is something I'd like to see higher up. I think it just does a lot of synergy stuff and that's cool.

It is a very powerful node so I understand why it's where it is.

But I like going all in on the shadow damage.

[tribal blade]

DB is a cool idea

[keen dome]

Making our poisons do Shadow is cool. And it amping all our shadow damage is also cool.

Which is why I'd like to see more things do shadow damage for Sub.

[haughty mural]

shadowed finisher rework would be great

without the FW condition also

turn finisher dmg to shadow ?

[hazy breach]

Large chunk of rupture damage doesnt work with finality anyway. Not the replicating damage nor corrupt the blood

[haughty mural]

of course not

[tribal blade]

dude these bugs make me want to scream sometimes

[keen dome]

give shadowstrike it's shadow strike back

[haughty mural]

never had it, or ?

wasnt it always phys ?

[tribal blade]

it was shadowstrike dmg during legion iirc

and then at some point it got phased to physical

[keen dome]

Yeah, I assume in the SL pre-patch

Which did all the weird nonsense changes

[grizzled hornet]

i scream everytime with the rs bug

[haughty mural]

ah yea true, the mix dmg thingy

[tribal blade]

it's funny, kush complained about the replicating bug in a key he just did

[alpine wraith]

ahaha yea it is annoying as f

[tribal blade]

he had to reign it in and be like "it's fine, everything's fine"

[grizzled hornet]

ofc man its the most annoying thing to happen right now

[haughty mural]

one of us

[tribal blade]

the fact that 1 bug killed a streamer's desire to play the spec

says a lot

[keen dome]

It'll be fixed......

Posion toggle, too.

Someday..

[grizzled hornet]

the thing is that this bug is there for ever and most likely is really hard to fix code wise or w/e wise

i recently killed court and was playing RS , my guild hates me cus everytime the bug proced i screamed

[tribal blade]

i dunno if it's hard to fix, i think they just have sub as a super low prio spec to work on

[alpine wraith]

sub players just gaming then suddenly know the bugs

ahaha

[placid elk]

what was that bug?

[inner kindle]

someone said earlier that you can apply multiple ruptures on aoe. what makes that possible? just replicating shadows?

[grizzled hornet]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue

[cursive vapor]

Guys whats the best way to get back to sub again from a longer time? Is it just practice on dummies for a bit? Or better to go into low keys first?

[alpine wraith]

yea replicating puts 2 ruptures instead of 1

[inner kindle]

so in m+ you storm rupture x2 /3 then tornado BP? is there a guide or rotation for deathstalker? seems like trickster and deathstalker have different rota, from what people have been discussing this morning

sorry totally new to spec

[alpine wraith]

not really you can use tornado 2 ways

to spread ruptures or to get cdr after cds

[inner kindle]

ah ok. i would think you just go nuts with BP on tornados. fair

[grizzled hornet]

check builds / check prios / practice on dummies / play it in raids/keys

[alpine wraith]

today i will likely make a short video for tornado thingies for deathstalker but it does not change much from the trickster one

you dont really want to go tornado into cds because of how shadowcraft works

[quiet pagoda]

Hey there ! In opener, are we using shuriken tornado only after all SD charges are on cd ?

[iron fjord]

haven't looked back after ditching tornado

[alpine wraith]

so you would for ex strike flag rupture tornado rupture rupture dance+SoD+Evis sec tech

depending on number of targets you proc DN because you pop the 3 marks

or you can just go into cds normally and use tornado after the 2 dances

to get sec tech back earlier

if there are more than 5 targets it is better to use the mousever rupture macro and you would bp instead of evis because you didnt proc DN

but if there are 5 or less with those ruptures in same target you already cap kinda

[quiet pagoda]

And if targets are lower than 5 we using ruptures on 1 target ?

[alpine wraith]

it is kinda the same thing as assa you can use rupture on the same target to pop marks

[tribal blade]

i will say one thing, from hitting the dummies with tea talented it does feel better

😦

who would have thunk being able to press buttons outside cds feels better

[alpine wraith]

sadly some extra crit dmg on builders and a sure crit with a finisher is better ehehe

[quiet pagoda]

According to icyveins, in m+ we still use trickster ?

[alpine wraith]

you can use either

DS can be better on some places but not enough that it super overtakes trickster

[quiet pagoda]

thanks for answer ! And ty for your videos 🙂

[hazy breach]

You can play both, but i suggest trickster

[quiet pagoda]

Yea, I feel like ds in aoe are kinda weird and "not fun to press buttons"

[west arch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[alpine wraith]

yea DS might appeal more to people that havent played sub in a while

for me it is weird

[quiet pagoda]

feel you 😄

[vale pine]

ds plays more classic sub

trickster is more modern

[hazy breach]

Tbh trickster feels a bit more janky with the storm+bp stuff

Full on strike+evis felt way better

[haughty mural]

a bit of a mixup depending on target count is probably not bad for trickster in the long term

imho

(to keep it engaging for some)

[tribal blade]

i agree it's weird

sub's aoe in general right now is just overall in a very weird state

[tulip gorge]

is there any situation where you black powder as trickster nowadays?

[hazy breach]

Yes'

5 or more targets

But you gotta use your second charge of rotten on storm

To apply fw for it

[cerulean beacon]

im sorry but what's FW? where can i see the abbreviations?

[uneven fern]

find weakness

[cerulean beacon]

omg yes, thank you

[uneven fern]

and then the talent that makes storm apply it on crit

idk what its called

and the rotten forcing a crit

[hazy breach]

Outdated mechanic, it should either be lower uptime or not be a thing at all

[uneven fern]

but it’s like bugged or some shit so u have to do the same combo every time you press cds i think?

idk i’m learning too

[hazy breach]

Nah

[haughty mural]

imp sstorm you mean ?

[uneven fern]

yar

think so

[uneven fern]

u have to do symbols+dance > strike > evis/sectech > storm > bp every time right

[haughty mural]

and you mean the bug that storm munches both rotten stacks ?

[uneven fern]

cus storming first scams ur shit

i think

yeh

[hazy breach]

Oh ye

ye its strike > sectech > storm > bp

[haughty mural]

im helping

but not really

[uneven fern]

not a “combo” i guess but yeh kinda silly imo

i was getting used to the other trickster aoe and now i gotta learn dis

~<

cus ds just feels too cringe

[haughty mural]

under 5 it stays the same 😄

more or less

if you dont want to bother with the DM bp thingy

just pull small

[uneven fern]

surely

so is find weakness like something worth tracking on plates now bc of dis

or is it kinda just always there

i don’t know

[sinful zephyr]

How is prio damage affected ? If there is a big mob does it still make sense to evis more?

[hazy breach]

I would say no

[hazy breach]

Its a bit less ye, but not as much of a decrease as you might think

Like 15-20% lower

[uneven fern]

just play deathstalker and your aoe is prio

but then you have to play ds

[sinful zephyr]

Ok...not sure I like the changes but I will try it out

[haughty mural]

i like to see it

[uneven fern]

i just feel like i would end up spamming bp after fw ends and losing damage

cus im bad

[haughty mural]

If you feel like you're always applying fw like mentioned above you dont need it probably

i just like to see it and make sure i have it applied

[uneven fern]

I mean i dont know rly what uptime on it looks like at all cause i’ve never bothered to think about it before now

is why i asked

i’m like day 4/5 learning sub or smth

[alpine wraith]

it will come around dont worry

the new ring will come out and give us super cool effects right!

oh wait

[uneven fern]

poggers

[alpine wraith]

it is trash rn

btw

they need to double or triple the effects

[uneven fern]

they’ll buff it

[alpine wraith]

i think im stuck in a time loop

same shit happened in df

[uneven fern]

better to be too shit and buffed vs too good and nerfed

imo

[alpine wraith]

so that means next tier set will make us play some weird shit

oh dont worry it will be too good then get nerfed

[uneven fern]

i’m sure

cause blizz kinda just suck at tuning

but the theory is good

[haughty mural]

the cycle

[uneven fern]

lol

[alpine wraith]

i mean sometimes i wonder

they have ALL the data

available at their fingertips

our logs are like toys to them

and still

here we are

[uneven fern]

idk

to some extent it’s like

intentionally letting things remain strong

like enh

[alpine wraith]

not the first or last time things like that happen

[uneven fern]

cant try 2 force meta changes too directly cause it’ll just upset everyone and there will always be a new #1 meta spec anyway

it’s normal to do balance like that

make one thing real sexy and leave it alone for a while

the ring stuff is a disaster tho

or was last time at least

cus it affects everyone

[hazy breach]

This ring has some stat gems too

Which makes it less cringe

Also just fewer gems overall

[alpine wraith]

yea the problem is the numbers at least we have mastery proc hope

last time it was rough as f

[tribal blade]

last time there were a million different gems

and like 1 meta build everyone ran haha

[alpine wraith]

there were some funny combos

there was the random stone

that could go nuclear

i ahd some fun with that one

but it got like 3 nerfs

then it became trash

[hazy breach]

Now theres like 4 of each "colour"

[alpine wraith]

time to just tell people go full in mastery dont look back

just crit brah

[sick lichen]

git gud and crit

[alpine wraith]

yea that is why DS is a cuck hero talent tree too

smh making me crit evis

where is the gamba

🎰

i wish we had weaponmaster affect everything again

let the world burn

[hazy breach]

Ye ds has less variance

[alpine wraith]

SURELY thx to fatal intent

goated talent

making us remember

that people just sometimes miss 0s too

when they write code

[tribal blade]

it's actually crazy they kept buffing fatal intent

and it still does 0 damage

[alpine wraith]

the funny thing is they didnt

it was the only one kinda that didnt get the double double triple treatment

[tribal blade]

oh did it not actually go through?

[alpine wraith]

flensing knives was there before

so it missed some multipliers

[tribal blade]

ohhhh that's right

[alpine wraith]

i find so funny mark does 1m crits sometimes

[tribal blade]

very beefy

[fair anchor]

I dont see it in the bugs list, is nimble still broken in Ara-Kara?

[alpine wraith]

what do you mean by broken

[fair anchor]

I thought it didnt work at some point ? And people played assa there instead

Forgot who mentionned it, saying details number were quite sus

[alpine wraith]

well people play assa because it does more dmg

although now sub is closer

[fair anchor]

No but i'm pretty sure i remember some people saying it didnt seem to work properly there

[topaz raptor]

yeah

#subtlety message

[alpine wraith]

damn that speaks how many ara karas i have done

[fair anchor]

Thanks !

Ok might try to play DS there now

[upbeat sorrel]

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue

[rugged moat]

any1 can tell which talent tree is better and if its viable deathstalker in m+?

[hazy breach]

Couldve been fixed though

I have no diea

It was bugged at the start of the season atleast

[tribal blade]

it was definitely sus damage in there, i haven't tried using sub in ara for quite a bit

the last time i tried was a 15 ara (back when doing 15s was very serious business) and my dps wasn't the reason we didn't time it, but it definitely played a role

and i thought i was losing my mind, not being able to figure out why i could do decent damage in every other key except ara

[fair anchor]

Tbh with how singular focus work, sub DS would be terrible for bloodguards or whatvever the mega giant beetles are called

[alpine wraith]

it actually works better

because bp is already like 85% of evis

so all the other dmg woudl go into the guard too+dmg from mark

[tribal blade]

i think he means how it causes all it's allies to take 50% reduced dmg

[fair anchor]

Yeah

Otherwise yeah the funnel would be perfect

[tribal blade]

but i think it's fine

[topaz raptor]

yeah you don't lose more than anyone else does

[tribal blade]

it kind of affects everyone the same way

[topaz raptor]

still fine

[fair anchor]

True

[tribal blade]

it's pretty much everyone is doing less damage on those pulls

across the board

[fair anchor]

Nimble flurry is just perfect for it tho, if it works

[tribal blade]

hate to say it, but sin is so good on those pulls

the prio is insane on sin

[fair anchor]

Or spatter yeah

[tribal blade]

you just put everything into the bloodguard and it dies fast

[fair anchor]

I just look for excuses not to spec sin

[tribal blade]

sub should work just fine in there, if you're worried nimble will be bugged just play DS

[topaz raptor]

or bp on trickster

[tribal blade]

sub doesn't have the same level of prio as sin, but it doesn't mean sub is not viable

[hazy breach]

Subs prio is really good

[alpine wraith]

flurry also gets reduced

[hazy breach]

Assas is just insane

[alpine wraith]

so it is the same

yea if only sec tech and other things worked with singular focus

and blades

and DN worked with shadowed

etc etc

assa did have a funny almost 6 years of envenom not working with zoldyck tho

so we are not alone in the krangliness

[haughty mural]

[cursive vapor]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[odd knoll]

long time outlaw enjoyer. tried sub now

why ive waited so long

no idea

[glad raven]

Has Fuu got one of those sexy little diagrams of SoD/SD timings?

Coming back to sub months after these changes, why am i more confused than before xD

[short radish]

don't worry about it

something will get randomly buffed in 3 more weeks

and everything will change again

[glad raven]

Used to love my simple brew builds in M+

and my lovely dust builds in raid

[hazy breach]

Make sure you have atleast 1 charge and 40s left on your second charge of dance when you flag

[haughty mural]

[glad raven]

Hmm

Time to repeatedly slam dummies

ST before SB feels

very strange

[hazy breach]

As long as you get 2 dances+symbols in flag+blades its fine

[hazy breach]

SB doesnt buff sectech anyway

[glad raven]

Yeah true

every season the opener is just jumbled about a bit

Optimization of when to press flag

No more ST as 2nd finisher ?

[hazy breach]

Cant fit 2 sectechs into cds

If you dont send it immediately

[glad raven]

Yeah thought so, not even between Flag/blades?

just send it

[hazy breach]

It doesnt really matter

As deathstalker

As trickster you want it first global to make sure you get the unseen blades/coups inside dance

[glad raven]

I stay away from trickster

yucky

[sly shore]

trickster is better to play

gameplay wise

[glad raven]

No kieron dont say this

Let me stay in my little deathstalker fantasy bubble

[hazy breach]

You might be the 1% deathstalker enjoyer

[glad raven]

Purple icon

[sly shore]

if they fixed mark interaction

it would be good

[glad raven]

From the tiny bit of raiding I've done on rogue this season before changes, DS felt more smoothbrain

In M+ i was slamming trickster by default tbf

[hazy breach]

Bug being slightly annoying as assa? Fixed within a week
Bug being incredibly fucked as sub? That'll take a year atleast

[glad raven]

Can someone inform me of what this bug is, cant see it anywhere unless I'm blind

[hazy breach]

If you have darkest night up

You cant proc any stacks

[fair anchor]

One thing i give DS, it doesnt kill me randomly when i evis because i didnt pay attention to EB stacks or i thought i was in range

[hazy breach]

So it will remain at 3 stacks and not do any damage

[glad raven]

dafuq

[hazy breach]

Which means you need eviscerate immediately

And thus scuff your sectech

[glad raven]

and it still outperforms trick?

[hazy breach]

On ST yes

[glad raven]

[sly shore]

they could've fixed that bug

and deathstalker would've gotten the same buff as it did

when they buffed plague damage

[glad raven]

So they will have to fix then nerf

[sly shore]

they just won't fix it

[glad raven]

I've been playing mage, shit gets fixed real quick

Like same day quick

[eager parrot]

what talents are u guys playing for 11-12 keys as sub ?

[ornate current]

First time rogue ?

Welcome to the spec that has bugs since legion

We hope you enjoy your stay

[glad raven]

Nah I mained sub previous 2 seasons

But my raid needed a mage

But yeah, bottom of blizzards list lol

[gritty knot]

😂 Ye. It's gonna be DF all over again. At the start it's shit. Then it gets buffed and so strong that ur literally forced to play it in the next season too even tho it's 30 ilv lower than ur new gear. And then it gets deleted 😂

[swift tinsel]

still waiting for the Soon™

[lilac stag]

mostly fixed

[gritty knot]

But I mean. "We try to learn from our past mistakes and learn from our past successes, and bring that forward into our new stuff" - Blizz. So its surely gonna be better XP than with DF Onyx Ring haha

[hazy breach]

He was specifically referring to a single bug about supercharger not working

But ye

[eager locust]

Whats the best spell to macro transmitter to?

[hazy breach]

Flag

[green kindle]

if you have to then flag but

just get a keybind for it it's way better

[eager locust]

Whats the downside?

[green kindle]

you can't complete it sometimes before needing to pop CDs and go off/having to hold GCDs

also just having less time to plan solving it

you can try it out i'd say with jumping it's fine but ye

[eager locust]

I'll give it a try

[green kindle]

can probably get used to it i suppose

[eager locust]

Better than forgetting to press it

[green kindle]

that's true

you can also have a bind for it but also macro it to flag just in case

maybe flag is absolutely fine maybe it's just me xd

[eager locust]

Ty for advice ❤️

[upbeat escarp]

Whats some good timings for cloak in mythic ansurek bois?

Apart from p1

I take the third porta in platforms, does it fk up if i go through with cloak?

[alpine wraith]

some wrest timings in p2

then on p3 depends

[hazy breach]

For condemnations mostly

Or if you get in a bad spot

Idk theres not that many good places

[heady quartz]

i found the pins

[alpine wraith]

nice

they are usefl

[slate marlin]

Wait do we know what the ring is going to be yet?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[alpine wraith]

you can log on ptr and check the stones

but they are not huge rn

[hazy breach]

Theres a wowhead post somewhere deep in their archives about it too

[slate marlin]

Ah ye the post with the gem effects

competely forgot about it

[alpine wraith]

i dont even remember when it was tbh

[torn tide]

hey how difficult would subtlety be to learn for someone thats only touched assassination rogue

[upbeat sorrel]

what are the other big differences i need to be aware of i am swtiching from DS m+ build to trickster? other than using BP at 5+ target

[viral phoenix]

w/ trickster in cooldowns u wanna hit 2nd sec tech in transmitter, shadow strike always if available, coup de grace is really fat CDR esp if it lines up with supercharger

[barren wren]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[upbeat sorrel]

gotcha ty

new to sub but have figured out ds better now wanted to try trickster

[viral phoenix]

sub is harder but they're both burst rogue specs so there are some similarities.

outside of cd's sub is slower than sin and even more simple, so once u learn the cadence of shadow dances ur chilling

[upbeat sorrel]

its very learnable just takes some practice getting used to the openers and cd rotations

[torn tide]

ty

[upbeat sorrel]

also cannot ooga booga send cds all the time which wa s alil hard for me cause i played a lot of outlaw

have to line them up

together

[torn tide]

damn as if getting good at assassination wasnt hard enough

[viral phoenix]

cause sub is a cdr spec it is overall less static than assassin

depending if u are in aoe or single target ur cooldowns on a 90 second basis change

[upbeat sorrel]

ass is kinda chill too you dont have to send so many casts at times

[torn tide]

maybe ill try sub out some day

thanks yall

[cursive vapor]

symbols ONLY with dance?

or if its available just press?

[hazy breach]

Dance only during symbols

[cursive vapor]

ahaa!

[vale pine]

you essentially build your cooldowns around secret mostly

[lilac stag]

Brain cells are required. Not everyone enjoys that while doing content.

[upbeat sorrel]

can i take first dance instead of shark nado or is that bad

[cursive vapor]

so like, flag only with blades, dance only during symbols, and then secret at last?

[alpine wraith]

you always take first dance

tornado you can replace with vt mostly

[upbeat sorrel]

i been using this am i cooked

[vale pine]

you essentially use secret with supercharger, dance with symbols.
Always 2x symbols 2x dance during flag and blades during the cycle

[spark tusk]

Yes, you can do this

[vale pine]

that build is very close to the other build

its better in aoe, but worse in st

[half comet]

how does the tricks WA work in raid

[upbeat sorrel]

i am not very good at using sharknado

[hazy breach]

It hits tank1

[marble lagoon]

Just got back into playing rogue after a couple years and I mostly have just one question - do we no longer press backstab inside dance to build macabre stacks?

[hazy breach]

But you can go into the custom options and set a specific target

[hazy breach]

No backstabs in dance no

[lilac stag]

Shamans make for good custom target

[marble lagoon]

Is it wasting precious flag time, or why is that so?

[hazy breach]

It just does less damage than shadowstrike

[marble lagoon]

Ah, yeah, sure, but wasn't that the case in df too, where we were pressing it?

[hazy breach]

Strike does good damage nowadays

[marble lagoon]

Or am I misremembering things

[hazy breach]

I mean strike does more than the macabre stack

Not that it does more than backstab, (which it also does)

[marble lagoon]

Gotchu, thanks!

Guess I gotta unbind it to stop myself from pressing it from muscle memory all the time

[vale pine]

backstab in dance stopped being worth it after df

[marble lagoon]

Cool cool

[topaz raptor]

what do you guys do with darkest night on aoe

do you spend it immediately even during cds

[swift tinsel]

evisc at 7cp

yes

otherwise you don't get marks

[dry burrow]

For those who've played a bit of deathstalker in m+, how's it feeling compared to Trickster? were people dooming for no reason or is it fine?

[uneven fern]

not much of a sub player but i have played both and both are fine

m+ ds is just kinda less interesting i guess

storm bp vibe

[topaz raptor]

ds feels way harder to achieve maybe slightly higher output

[uneven fern]

in aoe?

[topaz raptor]

yeah to me, i am a sub casual but trickster just has less buttons and less management

[uneven fern]

its more buttons isnt it

trickster has some pretty specific shit now

bp > eviscerate specifically in the situation where you have 5+ fw targets

ds just bps perma

ig u gotta dn tho

[topaz raptor]

yeah alternating finishers

instead of just walking up and eviscerating

[uneven fern]

you dont main eviscerate though

[hazy breach]

Gotta alternate finishers as trickster too

[uneven fern]

as trickster

[hazy breach]

Otherwise you lose snd

[uneven fern]

well yeh

[hazy breach]

And coup, but coup doesnt give snd

Because why would it

[uneven fern]

ok thats cursed and evil

trickster capstone is actually so bad

everything i learn about it makes me mad

awful design

[little epoch]

Whats your opinion guys? With SUB DS M+ build. Does Shuriken Tornado for you feel better to play or without?

[uneven fern]

i am a shit noob but i cant stand tornado

[swift tinsel]

design is fine, the bugged interactions kill it

[uneven fern]

i think that cd feels like shit

[uneven fern]

the pointless charge doing nothing except sometimes suicide

isnt a bug

[swift tinsel]

skill issue, rite of passage

[uneven fern]

based

[swift tinsel]

but yeah, add the rest onto the pile of bugs that is sub rogue

[idle aurora]

I haven’t tried death stalker is is harder to play? To tell you the truth I’m having a hard time getting used to black powder lol

[swift tinsel]

it's an adjustment if you've played a lot of trickster

[idle aurora]

It all I have ever known

[swift tinsel]

It'll feel weird for a while

[idle aurora]

I can’t find a good hot key for it

:0

Ooo I have an idea tho

[swift tinsel]

I have it on F like all of my aoe finishers

[idle aurora]

That’s my stealth button 😄

[swift tinsel]

ah I use middle mouse button for stealth

[severe prism]

it's just usual sub rogue, shuriken/powder in aoe shadowstrike/evis in st, there's just some "procs" with darkest night where you evis anyway

[dry burrow]

New to TWW sub, with trickster in AOE, when's usually the target threshold you start using BP instead of Evis in multi target?

[idle aurora]

I have 10 dmg buttons on my scroll wheel

:p

[swift tinsel]

5+ with find weakness debuff on them

[dry burrow]

Bless you!

[swift tinsel]

so you'll storm with second charge of Rotten

[idle aurora]

Find weakness is from storm?

[swift tinsel]

Improved Shuriken Storm talent

[idle aurora]

Why did I think sectec applied it ugh

Well this makes a lot more sense now

My wires were crossed

[swift tinsel]

You can get FW from a few things: attacking from stealth, imp ss talent, and imp backstab talent

the talents make their respective spells apply FW when they crit

but you want find weaknes out in aoe for Shadowed Finishers talent if you're gonna use BP

[idle aurora]

Oh I can probably move rupture out of my main keys and replace it with black powder since it’s used so much less often

lol I don’t know how you guys add stuff in so easily lol

[swift tinsel]

I have a general keybinding schema I use across characters that keeps things straight lol

[latent finch]

Im a completly idiot who didnt do that. I dont even have kick on the same keybind for all specs 😄

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-no-nonono-noooo-cat-no-gif-13597132752790194338

[alpine wraith]

i use an addon to migrate binds

never again have to redo shit

thx myslot

[fair stump]

Wasn't there a global keybind options tho

[delicate rover]

So Im enjoy sub in pvp does it translate as well in pve? would you recommend it?

[alpine wraith]

in pve it can be fun too

but there are some annoying things

[delicate rover]

i noticed stuff knockingme out of stealth in delves I assume thats what you mean

[alpine wraith]

also the rotation has its quirks

you can read some guides and see if you like the idea

but sub is cool you still have the burst thingies

[fair stump]

No, for starters, sub in pvp plays deathstalker

[fallow nimbus]

Sub in pve plays deathstalker too

[fair stump]

Not in the same way pvp does

[delicate rover]

I enjoy deathstalker so tahts fine

[alpine wraith]

yea in pve you dont play symbolic victory and cds are spread out to benefit overall dmg not burst

[molten citrus]

it plays both hero trees in pvp

[fair stump]

Wait, you play trickster in pvp now?

[molten citrus]

some people do

[fair stump]

That's wild

[molten citrus]

deathstalker is the best ST, a bit more burst, and has better utility mostly

trickster can be good for cleaving

some people just play it because they can't play around Singular Focus breaking stealth/CC

it has kind of an easier gameplay, mostly just set and forget

[delicate rover]

deathstalker is preferred ❤️

something about it is on point

[delicate rover]

So I was just using my pvp buld for delves and it felt a little off, guess ill switch to the pve m+ build and give it another shot

[lilac stag]

Deathstalker is shit. Carry on.

[uneven fern]

[delicate rover]

disagree but sure

[uneven fern]

both are shit

rogue hero talents are just shit

[delicate rover]

the sodium is real here

[lilac stag]

nah. Salt would be bitching about pvp talk in the pve channel.

both hero trees are shit. Trickster just makes the spec enjoyable. Deathstalker does nothing to fix the flaws in the talents and cds

[potent relic]

Cast Shuriken Storm Icon Shuriken Storm in single target when Clear the Witnesses Icon Clear the Witnesses is up outside of Shadow Dance Icon Shadow Dance and Symbols of Death Icon Symbols of Death windows.
From IV guide, does this mean don't clear the witness even with just symbols up?

[hazy breach]

Yes

Outside symbols

[potent relic]

got it ty

[merry agate]

just tyring out DS in raid and it has no flow

[leaden prairie]

does sub have more prio than assa

wtih deathstlaker

[alpine wraith]

nope

assa has the benefit of its spells working with singular focus

hard to beat that

[upbeat sorrel]

can i macro transmitter w symbols and SD for when i want to send in opener

is that a bad idea

[lilac stag]

No

Have it separate

[alpine wraith]

if you want to macro transmitter maybe flag

but surely not SoD

i have it separate

[lilac stag]

Least worst combo is flag, and that’s still bad

[alpine wraith]

because i use it on pull

[upbeat sorrel]

oh should i use it pre pull or on pull then

[lilac stag]

I swear people have never had to press a trinket KB before touching sub

[upbeat sorrel]

i've been doing it before i send my sec tech

[lilac stag]

you trigger it right with sectech

[alpine wraith]

yea not prepull but on pull

ideally you activate it just before you hit sec tech

[upbeat sorrel]

oh so spawn it on pull, eat the orb or yump 3 times before sec tech

[alpine wraith]

yea

[upbeat sorrel]

ok that makes more sense ty

[delicate rover]

lul

[uneven fern]

yea dn scuffing your sectech feels so shit

[alpine wraith]

yea try to enter dance with 1 mark

cures lots of headaches

[upbeat sorrel]

btw why do we finish at 6+ instead of 5

is it just maths

[uneven fern]

combo point scaling is linear

and you can build at 5 a lot more "safely" with regards to overcapping

vs 6

i think

outlaw also builds to 6 cause its safe

[upbeat sorrel]

oic

makes sense was just used to finishing at 5+ playing ass

[uneven fern]

ya

assa stops at 5 because of mutilate

building 2/3/4cp based on rng

[naive socket]

so whats better deathstalker or trickster for m+?

[upbeat sorrel]

📠

[uneven fern]

both are playable, trickster still best i think

[upbeat sorrel]

it appears both are playable

[uneven fern]

but its like preference

[upbeat sorrel]

might be dungeon/comp/team dependent

[alpine wraith]

6+ is for trickster

for deathstalker 5 is fine and to 7 for DN

[upbeat sorrel]

[uneven fern]

why would deathstalker change it

more marks i guess

[upbeat sorrel]

mark stonks

[delicate rover]

oh my god it feels so weird without subterfuge

[alpine wraith]

it does be like that sometimes

a stray fart takes you off stealth

[topaz raptor]

and these monsters do be fartin

[delicate rover]

I might just switch back to the pvp build for anything thats not instanced lol

yeah I feel dirty without it.

is cold blood /lethality that much better?

[hazy breach]

Well subterfuge does nothing

And lethality+cb does something

[candid field]

i feel like deathstalker is just better than trickster even in aoe. At least when practicing on target dummies. I dont see a reason to play trickster anymore

[delicate rover]

extra charge of vanish + a psuedo dance during those vanishes for more shadow strikes feels like somethin' to me but cant argue with numbers

[hazy breach]

Vanish doesnt do anything either

[delicate rover]

vanish gives you a use of shadow strike/ a secret technique from stealth but I suppose that doesnt do much anymore unless you ave master of shadows

interesting

[hazy breach]

It only gives you a strike

[delicate rover]

it gives you 6 seconds worth of abilities benefiting from stealth thats pretty decent

[hazy breach]

Its not

You have no energy for strikes anyway

So subterfuge is like 2 strikes

And vanish is 1 strike

Which both do significantly less than a single sectech cb

[delicate rover]

Interesting

thanks for elaborating

[hazy breach]

It has way less burst

So you need long sustained pulls for it to be better typically

[steel rune]

is sub rogue s tier now?

[delicate rover]

its whatever tier you want it to be if you're enjoying it

Trickster aoe looks pretty fun ngl

I just am not the biggest fan of Flagellation

whatever I will learn it!

[steel rune]

just saw sub and outlaw sky rocket on statistics on wclogs

[lucid mica]

Do we still macro thistle tea on to sectech?

[hazy breach]

Macro it to dance

[lucid mica]

Copy that. Is sectech no longer uncapped AOE?

Havent played sub for a hot minute.

[hazy breach]

fairly sure it never was

[lucid mica]

Hmm

I feel like it was in DF

[hazy breach]

It wasnt

Its not gotten any changes

[lucid mica]

I remember doing ridiculous uncapped aoe dmg in Academy

Thats werid

Weird*

So were basically a 8T spec now?

[uneven scarab]

Sectech is soft capped i believe no?

[vestal escarp]

I can say i exsensively tried DS in keys

[lucid mica]

Sectech is pmuch hard capped actually, since its total damage

[vestal escarp]

it's doodoo chat

L

[lucid mica]

So no matter how many targets itll just split it afaik

[vestal escarp]

[uneven scarab]

Ds def some poop

[vestal escarp]

for trickster sectecs in flag hit harder

your cdr feels better

inev has some meaning to be picked

the hero tree brings to the table stuff that make sub play better in keys, that stuff right now is more valuable than some silly tuning

[delicate rover]

oh trickser M+ build is fun

[wise jetty]

did trickster change in the patch or just deathstalker?

[vestal escarp]

only ds

[wise jetty]

ok that's what i thought. so all the trickster talk is really just people discovering it from sin/outlaw

[vestal escarp]

also a feeling i got reclearing raid as DS

right now it feels so strong because you blast the fights

with longer prog timers you cds fall apart

[upbeat sorrel]

am i always supposed to get 2 sec techs into flag with trickster m+ build

[hazy breach]

Yes

[upbeat sorrel]

feel like sometimes im like one or two finishers away from sec tech

[hazy breach]

2 sectech, 2 dances, 2 symbols

Every flag+blades

As both hero talents

[upbeat sorrel]

am i not finishing enough

[uneven scarab]

Probably

[vale pine]

make sure you use secret first in dance

[topaz raptor]

Anyone have sims of a full set of sin gear vs full set of sub gear

As sub

[vale pine]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[topaz raptor]

That’s bis though right? I suppose i could sim the sin gear with the sub talents

[small hemlock]

i dunno if i like sub in keys as much as assa

maybe its an organised group thing but im not doing the nombres i want to do 😦

[uneven fern]

aoe rotation changed from black powder buff

but other than that no

[vale pine]

trickster now uses bp on 5+

and you probably want to use one storm per dance in aoe to apply find weakness

[short radish]

Fuck these buffs

This is such cringe gameplay

[small hemlock]

thats what she said

[wide magnet]

deathstalker st is fun

enjoying it

[sour stump]

We still tricky in m+?

[cursive vapor]

is vt instead of tornado for sub beginners the better choice cause one less ability?

[hazy breach]

Its fine either way

Tornado just sucks to play, even though its numerically fine

Its not a big difference

[ornate berry]

Do we also BP on 5+ in Dance now as Tricks? Or is at a lower target count for Dances?

[wide magnet]

is gloves offpiece for all specs

?

(no)

[delicate rover]

trickster makes my delves life so much more fun

[strange chasm]

@hazy breach you been doing DS or trick in keys?

[hazy breach]

Been trying both

Idk seems like both are solid

[strange chasm]

Thoughts for dawn?

[hazy breach]

Not sure

Prob trick but idk

[strange chasm]

wonder if ds is better for the st

[candid field]

trick is only simming higher for me in the 20s fights otherwise ds is better

[tepid trellis]

kinda curious as to why you've simmed 20sec duration but im not entirely sure if i really wanna know the "why"

[modest delta]

yo ngl, first time playing sub since DF

this shits kinda busted no?

622 pumpin 1.6m in keys

[wind canopy]

Yeah, not sure why people do weird sims like 20 seconds

[steel zinc]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[modest delta]

is there a DS aoe M+ build rotation listed somewhere?

thats meta rn yeah?

[sweet haven]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[candid field]

for validation even though i saw it on target dummy. That trickster is burstier

[still trellis]

take the pinned talent build, spam black powder in aoe and eviscerate when mark drops

[haughty mural]

We dont do envenom here

[still trellis]

good point, im close to 24 hours awake so i kinda didnt even notice

corrected easy

[fair stump]

Overall?

[modest delta]

yeah

[modest delta]

this feels significantly less than TS

unless im playing it wrong

[hazy breach]

Theyre both solid

[tribal blade]

@hazy breach tried first key as DS, just a 10

with a terrorist tank so overall was completely borked

but felt alright

[hazy breach]

Ye

Idk it didnt feel way stronger than trickster in my experience

Didnt really feel worse either

Idk both seem pretty solid. Havent tried any DB stuff for a mass aoe dungeon like SV yet though

[tribal blade]

it feels a bit simpler than trickster

[uneven fern]

https://tenor.com/view/bongosub-sub-rogue-world-of-warcraft-rogue-aoe-gif-27554873

we're so back

except the 2nd bp is eviscerate

[small hemlock]

bp on 5+ ye?

[candid field]

with trickster yes

[modest delta]

622 ilvl TS

class op

[small hemlock]

is there a decent yt video for sub

[alpine wraith]

i have some videos yea

[lethal gale]

In trickster we still SS>BP on 5+ target right? flawless/cds running etc

[alpine wraith]

it is a bit more complicated but not hugely

actually it is quite scripted

you want to storm with your second rotten charge

so you strike sec tech storm then go into black powder at 5+ targets

[lethal gale]

got it ty

[foggy egret]

hey guys sorry if this has been asked a bunch but has crit value gone up with DS aoe ?

[alpine wraith]

the other way around

DS likes crits less than trickster

because of DN

[hazy breach]

Crit is worse than haste for DS

[foggy egret]

weird its telling me to use crit mastery over mastery vers neck

for aoe atleast

and st actually hmm

[hazy breach]

Oh ye aoe its a bit better but not that much

[alpine wraith]

depends on other gear

also yea haste in aoe is nana

[hazy breach]

You already have rotten, cold blood and DN

[alpine wraith]

not because crit is good

[hazy breach]

So theres a bunch of shit that already crits

[foggy egret]

guess i wasnt playing the recomended build , was using speed's build he was running

ill try the recomended one

[alpine wraith]

first dance also helps mastery a bit

not hugely but quite

[foggy egret]

so you still use rotten even in aoe with DS?

or is that just for better st in keys

[hazy breach]

It guarantees fw on all targets

[alpine wraith]

finality is not super strong too

and db path is cursed

[foggy egret]

oh wait why did i think rotten only buffs Shadowstrike

oh nice

[alpine wraith]

affects all builders yes

[foggy egret]

that is awesome lets go

[alpine wraith]

well would not think i will see the day people like rotten

[foggy egret]

lol

just excited to play sub again

[alpine wraith]

but it does its job

[untold scarab]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[rocky ocean]

hi, do I need to track cd of coldblood or can leave it macroed and forget about it?

[round latch]

idk man,ive wiped the floor with couple 3k dudes on a mists.. Deathstalker felt as strong as a Sin

it might lose in overall still though

im doing like 2mil overalls as sin,sub is somewhere 1.8-ish territory

im also 95% certain sub does more ST than sin

[alpine wraith]

yea that is correct

sin strongerst point vs sub is its sustained dmg with no cds

sub st is super good

even more on dungeons where you can game tfd and charger more

[round latch]

like bosses melt man

[alpine wraith]

i have done 2.5m+ on some bosses

[round latch]

we 1 phased 1st boss,i gapped everyone on transition

yup yup

[tribal blade]

that's 1 very good thing sub has going for it

is we're able to have almost our full ST setup in aoe

[short radish]

yeah that part is nice

[grand fox]

Sounds like frost dk and that you need nerfed

[tribal blade]

if sin is not getting nerfed, there's 0 shot sub is getting nerfed

unless blizz does that unholy thing of nerfing because of raid performance again

[grand fox]

never trust blizz

[short radish]

there is a higher than 0 chance

sub will be nerfed