subtlety

[lilac stag]

Though I wonder if dropping rotten could be a play

[sly shore]

ss > evis > sstorm > sectech > SS > BP

basically

hidden blade too good

to sstorm over SS in dance

[alpine wraith]

yea you storm once to get FW it also helps nimble

you already kinda did that but the gain was more minor so it was not somehting to actually tell people to do

same as going strike rupture vanish storm as DS to get witness on all the fools

[cerulean beacon]

wait I thought ds is easier in keys

[alpine wraith]

not really

[lilac stag]

Krangled gonna krangle

[sly shore]

it's a lot more decision making

[cerulean beacon]

I spent quite some time yesterday on dummies trying to get back into this goated spec and DS was similar…ish to how sub used to play some time ago. Just some caveats. Then I read trickster and it seemed so complex compared to DS

[lilac stag]

nah

[dreamy badger]

Trickster is mostly unga bunga

[lilac stag]

Just a bit different thought process.

Once it clicks it’s smooth

[sturdy moon]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[keen dome]

🙏

Finally.

[cloud rover]

[keen dome]

Lovely 69% mastery

[cerulean beacon]

is it really just evi spam in dance windows in aoe? Lmao
I mean I was reading thru all the trickster buffs and thought it would be quite a juggle to get all of them work together, seems like it really does play itself?

[keen dome]

Yeah. Trickster flurries Evis up to 8 targets so aoe is just evis evis evis evis

Make sure flawless form is up. Evis time

[vale pine]

currently looking into it a bit more

[cerulean beacon]

[vale pine]

(its 1-10 target sims)

[sly shore]

💀

[lilac stag]

Many skulls today.

[keen dome]

[vale pine]

but the universe limits my power

[keen dome]

I do like skulls. Esp when they're silly weirdos

[keen dome]

damn

Unlce Death = best skull

[lilac stag]

Time to whip out the desktop app

[sly shore]

his laptop would explode

[lilac stag]

I know

https://tenor.com/view/elmo-hello-elmo-rise-elmo-hell-gif-3989603362345473118

Black Friday upgrade time.

[keen dome]

Let's crowdfund a data center for the discord's simulation work

[lilac stag]

Fucking Divinci Resolve went on sale. New unplanned expense.

[vale pine]

you don't rly need one

the rate limit is per minutes

[lilac stag]

Fuu just needs anything but a toaster oven.

[keen dome]

Okay but: it'd be funny

[vale pine]

it would be

funnily enough

the 1-2% dps increases in aoe

are like .2% in dungeon slice

oh ye, jucy 0.2%

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/marvel-movie-avengers-infinity-war-gif-18122928

[vale pine]

probably should add bloodlust

[keen dome]

Nice

[vale pine]

@sly shore you might hate me for this, but there is a small min/max with BP

its easy enough, but on 4 targets you wave in a bp for danse

(on trickster)

[tawdry kiln]

for danse macabre ?

[vale pine]

yes for a stack of macabre

[alpine wraith]

ahaha

the nightmare continues

[tawdry kiln]

🤯

[vale pine]

i am still testing, its still simple

also funnily enough

dark brew is within low error margins

like 0.3 or 0.5%

not bad

[alpine wraith]

vs rotten?

interesting because to get db you need to go the krangled route of PV and no DD

did you check 2 finality 1 perception vs it too?

for DS that one seems better

[vale pine]

i actually need to re-sim

[sly shore]

THAT'S FINE

oops

[vale pine]

because i found non rotten improvements

[sly shore]

That's fine

[vale pine]

ye

[plush roost]

Just a single BPm

?

[alpine wraith]

yes

[vale pine]

basically

[plush roost]

Interesting

[vale pine]

use bp once on 4 targets

for a stack of danse macabre

[plush roost]

Backstab 2.0 finisher edition

[alpine wraith]

electric bogaloo

[plush roost]

Featuring dante

[sly shore]

you will never catch me playing pv

[tawdry kiln]

When we use flag + sb, do we link both dances ? or we wait to have sectec back to pop again sod + danse (as trickster)

[sly shore]

fuck that talent

you want sectech as first or second finisher

so use cd accordingly

[alpine wraith]

as trickster you use one sec tech per dance kinda

[sly shore]

1 finisher between dances is enough as trickster if I recall

[alpine wraith]

and supercharge both

[plush roost]

Pmuch

[alpine wraith]

so using SoD before it

[tawdry kiln]

OKOK 🫡

[plush roost]

As DS on sikran I had to use 2 finishers before my second dance in cds

[sly shore]

can also sod later in dance

[plush roost]

Yeah I was kinda winging it

[sly shore]

dance > finish > sod + SS

instead of with dance

[vale pine]

also can in theory

[plush roost]

Its annoying because I had DN lineup with my cdr one time

[vale pine]

bp on 4 already

outside of dance

but its equal to not doing so

so your decision

[plush roost]

So is the play with DN up going into dance: dance ss, DN, ss, Sod sec tec?

Or send sod sec tec first

[vale pine]

i am sitll testing some stuff

so take everything i say with a disclaimer as it migth change

[cloud rover]

Its so hard to not laugh like a 13 yo child when seeing DN

[plush roost]

Ikr

[wild hornet]

Darkest night more like

[plush roost]

Rogue the class with CP and DN...

Man

[cloud rover]

[alpine wraith]

too late caugh in 4k

we are using goremaw now for energy

[wild hornet]

I unironically use(d) goremaw

[vale pine]

you are making hachadino a happy man

okay, seems to hold up

[alpine wraith]

tbh it might get used just because deathstalker reeks of outside of dance energy flow

to get more dance CDR

[sly shore]

https://tenor.com/view/me-waking-up-from-nap-swifty-sapped-wow-swifty-world-of-warcraft-swifty-wow-gif-26679783

[alpine wraith]

it is ROUGH

maybe even tea ugh comes back

actually lets forget about those

[sly shore]

stop typing

[vale pine]

secret tea time tech

[alpine wraith]

tbh sometimes i wish i had tea when i want to use the DN evis but im so far away in backstab jail

[vale pine]

lets see, i wonder if brew is now even closer

[alpine wraith]

fuu making kieron play PV

[vale pine]

hmm

unexpected

tornado seems to start to sim worse

no dark brew time tho

[sly shore]

good I drop tornado anyway

for VT

tornado stinks

doesn't fit

[vale pine]

can just +1 this

stinky nado

[short radish]

fuck nado

[vale pine]

the design just does not work well with the updates

[alpine wraith]

tornado does not bring joy

[vale pine]

on top of the spell being fairly old

[half comet]

we are sec tec first in dance whether in cds orn ot right

unless darkest night is up

[lilac stag]

Kush was tea’ng

[tawdry kiln]

this is veiltouched

?

[alpine wraith]

yes

[tawdry kiln]

gotta put my game in english asap

[alpine wraith]

i mean makes sense when you dont have like 10+ flawless stacks to buff sec tech that CB is strong

and tea does help the low times

[vale pine]

tea should be close

cold blood isn't that far ahead

losing dust makes cold blood a lot less strong

[haughty mural]

:3

[vale pine]

[haughty mural]

auto tea is worse on sub right ?

[vale pine]

dark brew on deathstalker

soo close

😛

[lilac stag]

Think it was dance buff not energy low tide

[sly shore]

still doesn't sit right with me how sub is rn

just in design hell

[alpine wraith]

for st you use it kinda on low energy for Aoe it is whatevers yea

[sly shore]

damage profile is spot on really

just the talent design is so uninspired

[alpine wraith]

it is kinda a problem with our midroll talents

or the lack of finisher ones

if it was 5 stacks-> stronger finisher no one would mind PV

but it is 5 stacks then stronger builder?

same with lingering

or wm not working with storm etc etc

we have classic talents but not even

[lilac stag]

Subs talents, design & bugs.

The orange one is the dmg profile.

[alpine wraith]

that photo is funny because one time someone put a guy behind the cables

[hot plaza]

You guys talking about shuriken tornado? If so so what should I replace it with for m+ pls? Ty

[haughty mural]

i mean you just quoted it

[lilac stag]

TFD. VT.

[haughty mural]

you replace nado with VT

[hot plaza]

VT- veiltouched?

[sly shore]

yes

[hot plaza]

Ty 👍👍

[lilac stag]

We don’t let things like reading get in the way here.

[haughty mural]

Couldn’t resist

[lilac stag]

understandable

Almost hit the idiot sandwich gif

[vale pine]

tbh its not that bad anymore

unless you mean bugs

[tawdry kiln]

what's ur dream talent guys

I think the shadow clone from old combat rogue would be fire

[alpine wraith]

the shadow clone was cool yea

i do miss the old sinister calling

but the one i would like for sure would be Preparation working on all cds

so we could go galactic ONCE

[lilac stag]

I mean everything so yeah

They managed to get a good dmg profile in quite possible the most convoluted way possible. I’d love to see how the spec would play with actual bug fixes and proper dmg interaction vs the blanket buff garbo.

[alpine wraith]

but how about more dmg on autos

or randomly?

or maybe random autos that proc random dmg

new hero talent being drunk as f attack speed goes from -100 to +100

[haughty mural]

[lilac stag]

The coup animation is perfect visual representation of sub rogue design.

[haughty mural]

True

[uneven fern]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue

[wind harness]

https://tenor.com/view/anime-last-stand-als-anime-last-stand-update-anime-last-stand-upd-als-update-gif-2055114662060648899

[lilac stag]

then they all reset each patch

[alpine wraith]

and maybe they get some added that were fixed

[fair crest]

what would be the most reasonable talent to change to, instead of "shuriken tornado", with the DS talent tree in mythic+ dungeons? I imagine it might be 6% crit chance during symbols but I'm not intelligent so I thought I'd ask here 👀

[lilac stag]

TfD. VT

[fallow walrus]

!pins

[lilac stag]

What info are you looking for?

[iron fjord]

how bad is dropping replicating shadows? I'm kinda tired of the bug

[plush roost]

About 4-5k dps

Last time i simmed against it

[iron fjord]

what would you take instead of it?

[plush roost]

Taking imp shadow techniques

[iron fjord]

thank you

[lilac stag]

It not worth the damage to your sanity.

[plush roost]

If u wanna see how it impacts your character just make 2 talent sets and go into top gear

Yeah my sanity says, play it on silken court and nothing else

[tribal blade]

silken court is pretty much the only fight where having replicating is much better

especially if you get some spreads onto adds

[vestal escarp]

Funny, i dropped replicating definitely while progging court

[tribal blade]

i did try that too

the cdr felt better w/o replicating

[vale pine]

lol, i remember that

[tribal blade]

need new talents to replace the stinkers we have so we can have some new bugs

[haughty mural]

new bugs

old ones getting.....

old

[tribal blade]

yeah they're getting old, need some new fresh bugs

[haughty mural]

gimme something new man

[tribal blade]

so we have something new to complain about

😉

[lilac stag]

What if, DN only triggered at 4 cp

[tribal blade]

need more memes made about the sub rogue channel

[tribal blade]

i just threw up in my mouth a little

BUT that would mean we can never touch DS again

actually

[lilac stag]

mmhm

[sly shore]

what if it triggered on 5+ like the entirety of deathstalkers mark

[fallow walrus]

trying to find some info ifthere is a big dps difference if i drop CB and add thirstle tea since i am still learning the spec / rotations and outside Symbol + dance i have horrible energy management

[haughty mural]

stop with common sense man

[plush roost]

What if DN only triggered if you had goremaw talented 🤔

Now we're cooking without gas!

[hazy breach]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[lilac stag]

For Death you can likely run it, but you’re just macroing it to dance so it won’t help with energy

as eleem just triggered. Just worry about your cd windows to start.

[haughty mural]

you could argue vigor and the increased pool could help a bit in his case

[tribal blade]

your energy management outside cds isn't horrible, it's how the spec is suppposed to play

[lilac stag]

the big brains are still running interactions with the update, but pretty much don’t overthink too much when out of dance.

[lilac stag]

But there’s nothing to manage outside of cds

So you’re just flooded

[haughty mural]

i know

[tribal blade]

it's completely normal to feel energy starved outside of dance

unfortunately

[lilac stag]

we go from like 65apm in dance to 1 ability every 3 gcd outside of it.

[tribal blade]

35 energy storm revert when

sin has 300 energy pool and 35 energy fok

bruh i'm dead

[thick cedar]

I'm sure this has been asked 1k times, but is Trickster getting the BP buff too ?

[tribal blade]

yes

[thick cedar]

This week ? 😛

[tribal blade]

da

@lilac stag you're NA right

[lilac stag]

Ya

[tribal blade]

have you been enjoying the politics talk in /2

nonstop

[lilac stag]

unfortunately

witness the best of basement dwellers

[tribal blade]

i thoroughly enjoy watching people try to argue over the internet

[lilac stag]

I genuinely like this discord because I am able to get views outside of the US on a daily basis.

[keen dome]

You can break it up anytime with one simple trick: "Pineapple on pizza is pretty good, right?"

[lilac stag]

I’ve got a number of friends in EU from dog training

[tribal blade]

true it's good to see different sides

[still trellis]

quick question regarding this part in the opener, why do we sectech before shadowblades?

[keen dome]

It works flawlessly in the EU to completely ruin any discussion in /2 about politics (or anything else). I bet it works in the US too

[tribal blade]

sectec isn't buffed by blades

[lilac stag]

Wendy’s vs McD maybe better

[tribal blade]

so this way you consume premed with strike

[keen dome]

That's a good one

I also like "Poptarts are just a big ravoli right"

[still trellis]

aaaaaaaah aight that explains a lot

[keen dome]

and "So, what's the deal with star wars"

[lilac stag]

Hotdogs are Tacos

[keen dome]

Some really fun topics a load of people HAVE to give you their opinion on, and will derail everything

[charred kestrel]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

in NA you could probably still prop Budweiser up and grief many insure white males

[keen dome]

Hahaha

I'm a chronic trade gremlin when I'm not doing adverts

[lilac stag]

I have to find her on socials. A reel came across of a grandma playing CS and she lit up some college kid. It was brutal

[keen dome]

Owns

[lilac stag]

I should have saved it

But 3am brain wasn’t working

[vale pine]

shadowblades does not work on secret, thats why

the clone attacks count as pets and as such don't deal extra damage

the second reason fro the delay is premeditation

(premediation makes your next attack fill the combo point bar, shadowblades has the same effect)

[still trellis]

aye premed i do know i was only confused about sectech

i assumed it worked with shadowblades

because you know, sounds logical to someone reading the abilities

also am i just fecked if i wanna try sub in raid and never got transmitter

[lilac stag]

youre def at a disadvantage

but it's still playable

you're basically turning your 2m trinket into a 3m trinket

[still trellis]

so the trinket is delayed not the cooldowns, makes sense

might give it a try because im a bit bored during princess prog rn

[lilac stag]

Run lfr and normal

[still trellis]

ah ye lfr...

my last chance

welp got nothing better to do anyways

[short radish]

Is your guild wiping 200 attempt broodtwister??? 肯德基 KFC ULTIMATE ZINGER BOX designed 消滅飢餓 to twIST that hunger

[tawdry kiln]

lemme trade 300 crest for a transmitter pls

[lilac stag]

Fuck this hits hard since we’re on ghuun.

[vale pine]

a lot of things on subtlety are not 100% intuitive

[upbeat sorrel]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[still trellis]

ye i realise that a lot when reading abilities vs seeing the guide

[lilac stag]

tooltips are fake news

[short radish]

i think i only realised that coup gives 5 stacks of flawless form 2 weeks ago

i am not a smart man

[lilac stag]

none of us are. We play rogue

[short radish]

monke together strong

it did make a lot more sense now why to only apply coup when you have fazed debuff

[tulip gorge]

what is the replicating shadows bug I keep hearing about?

[hazy breach]

Its completely unrelated to rupture

It makes it so your shadowcraft refund can be delayed

So instead of getting the shadowcraft refund when you press an eviscerate, for example if you proc up to 7 sht 0.9s after the evis will give you that refund at 0.9s

[tulip gorge]

I see, how does a talent related to rupture cause it?

[hazy breach]

[leaden prairie]

it can be that late ?

no wea

[hazy breach]

It can be even later

[leaden prairie]

[hazy breach]

But you usually use your stacks next gcd

So it doesnt really happen in practice

[leaden prairie]

true

[hazy breach]

Like during nonflag dances you can strike > end up and 5 and then 0.5s later proc 2 sht and it will use those to bring you to 7 for your eviscerate

Its janky af

[lilac stag]

#subtlety message

[fair anchor]

So annoying i track sht stacks specifically to know when i'll get refunded, then i dont get shit and send a late SS only for my sht stacks to disappear

[plush roost]

Yeah it is quite cursed

[weary saffron]

when this happens it makes me physically uncomfortable

[cerulean beacon]

oh god so THAT’S what it was. I was so confused

[leaden prairie]

ye i just didnt know it could happen this late

i just tought i might be washed up and couldnt react in the last 0.5s like a noob

but if it can happen as late as

well

anytime during the gcd basically

its gg

[glacial hinge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[glacial hinge]

on the Dslice sims do we change our playstyle for BP? as trickster

[vale pine]

we use BP on 5+ on trickster

[glacial hinge]

still coup normally on supercharge+Stech or we change

[leaden prairie]

sub back to 0 prio spec gg

[vale pine]

evi isn't that strong even, so you don't lose out that much

[leaden prairie]

[vale pine]

[leaden prairie]

how much more aoe are you donig now then

say on 5 target

[vale pine]

i can make a sim in a hour or so when i am at my pc

[leaden prairie]

[hazy breach]

Like 4% or so

[hazy breach]

Deathstalker doesnt quite have assa levels of prio, but its very high

[strange chasm]

I have to retrain my fingers and brain to remember to press BP

[leaden prairie]

i didnt think it would

but you mean while doing aoe

or while funneling

[strange chasm]

It's gotta be getting closer now though?

[tepid trellis]

AoE is your funnel

[hazy breach]

Doing aoe is funnel

[leaden prairie]

bruh

[hazy breach]

BP does like 10% less damage than eviscerate on pure ST as deathstalker

[leaden prairie]

aint no wae

[hazy breach]

So if theres like 2 more targets singular focus is gonna make bp do way more than evis

[balmy trench]

its gotten 55% of buffs this season right?

[leaden prairie]

ok im rerollign sub

[strange chasm]

Outlaw sims highest

Rerollimg now

[leaden prairie]

oh nvm

i cant play sub till they fix the cp refund thing

gg

[hazy breach]

Its only been bugged for 13 months, theyll fix it soon enough

[leaden prairie]

also pnig me when they finally delete shuriken cringe talent thing

storm

ass

[hazy breach]

Just dont play it

its not that much better than veiltouched anyway

[alpine wraith]

yea tornado is there to spread ruptures

or get some cdr

[round latch]

ive abandoned all hope with nado man

im either not fast enough on tab rups or idk

its not sitting on me well

[edgy zenith]

it's kinda crazy that jpc is still coming up as one of my most recommended

haven't watched him in like 2 years lmao

[alpine wraith]

nice

[uneven fern]

based

i was avoiding buffed ds to avoid having to play that talent

we r so back

thought it was like a must take idk anything about this spec

[wild hornet]

during the opener, when its time for the 2nd set of sdance symbol, do i pop sdance when it runs out and then wait a few gcds for symbol to run out, or do i pop both at the same time if theres like a few seconds of symbol left

[alpine wraith]

pop symbols when you are about to sec tech

[ornate current]

so we still play trickster in M+ just spam BP on 5+ targets ?

[wild hornet]

wouldnt it be the same whether you symbol a second or 5 before it

[alpine wraith]

you need to prep it a bit yes

[alpine wraith]

read what supercharger does

[gritty knot]

So as Trickster with 5+ targets we spam BP everytime now? Even with all CD's up in shadowdance? Same like with Deathstalker? And what about Coup being up? We evis then similar like with DN as long as fazed is up and then after go back to BP spam?

[alpine wraith]

with 5+ you get fw and bp yes

just remember to also use coup and sec tech when it is possible

also we only storm once with second charge of rotten everything else in dance is strikes as trickster

[abstract skiff]

boooo black powder

[gritty knot]

So, in SD everytime we strike+ ST like always and then after we storm once into BP, then Strike + BP Rest of Dance?

[alpine wraith]

yes

as trickster

just in case people dont get confused with DS

[gritty knot]

Why that storm tho? I am not only rn, so I don't know what that Talent does when u crit because of rotten Charge?

*online rn

[alpine wraith]

read find weakness

and also shadowed finishers

[gritty knot]

Ye I cant rn that's what I wanted to say 😂

[alpine wraith]

and well nimble is physical

basically armor penetration is strong when it is up

[edgy zenith]

applies find weakness to everything because it's guaranteed crit from rotten

[gritty knot]

Ah, ye. Thanks

[alpine wraith]

but you cant use it first global because of a bug

so you strik

[edgy zenith]

and you take that one talent that makes storm apply find weakness if it crits

[alpine wraith]

so the second charge is the one we use

yea improved shuriken storm

[gritty knot]

Okay, thank guys. I will test Trickster later for sure in some dungeons with that new gameplay

Let's see how that goes

[alpine wraith]

it is not huge but something

the storm thing was already quite worth because of nimble

[half comet]

oh you only do that in trickster

[alpine wraith]

yea as DS you just strike once then always storm

[half comet]

gotcha

[alpine wraith]

on 3targets+ 2 with witness

[gritty knot]

Kinda stupid what theyve done with those latest buffs to BP and DS. But ye. It is what it is I guess

[half comet]

did sims / apl stuff figure out which is better in M+

yet

[edgy zenith]

wait, really? you generate with storm in CDs as DS?

[alpine wraith]

in aoe yes

[edgy zenith]

wtf

[fair stump]

Like, why would you use strike in AoE as DS?

[alpine wraith]

premeditation and danse

[mystic ether]

Any guides on the new DS M+ build anywhere?

[alpine wraith]

i will try and make one today later but there are not many changes

just check the pin

[mystic ether]

When to use Shuriken Tornado?

[azure mauve]

funny that people think its weird to use shuriken storm and BP in aoe

[mystic ether]

Nah I meant timing wise

I've played sub in DF

[alpine wraith]

you use tornado to spread ruptures or to get cdr

[mystic ether]

I see ty

[alpine wraith]

right now you dont really use it on cds unless you know the pull will be very short and you also use symbols a bit later to not mess up shadowcraft

[mystic ether]

So no Shuriken Storm Tornado* Shadow Dance SoD ?

[alpine wraith]

you mean tornado

[mystic ether]

Yes

Tornado*

[alpine wraith]

storm is the standalone cast

in a very short pull is where you would use tornado

in cds otherwise just spread ruptures

something like strike rupture tornado rupture rupture dance black powder SoD sec tech

[mystic ether]

Sounds good ty

What's the optimal rotation in SD?

[half comet]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[alpine wraith]

depends on target count and if you are DS or trickster

[mystic ether]

Do we SS BP Tornado SecTec for Danse & Supercharge?

[half comet]

how is focus lens vs duskthread in aoe

[alpine wraith]

the one above would be for DS for ex

[half comet]

focus lens sim higher last i checked right

[alpine wraith]

dusk is better

if it is up

but dusk to around 80%+

it should beat anything

for slice

[half comet]

i see

[rain smelt]

So which bosses do we play DS on now? Sikran, Kyveeza and Ansurek?

[fair stump]

DS should be higher on strict ST atm

Probably need more runs on AoE to compare

[clever delta]

bp my old friend

[fair stump]

Degenerate gameplay

[fair anchor]

do we care about doing storm before ever doing BP now during SD as trickster ? like for example on 5 target if you do strike, sectec, and get a shadowcraft refund, you send BP even if you didnt storm before for FW ?

[half comet]

i would assume u click evis on 5 target without FW then you use the storm with rotten and bp afterwards

if ur shadowcraft procd

[alpine wraith]

you would evis

fw is the important part yea

[fair anchor]

cheers

that's what I thought but strictly following the wowhead guide it wasn't clear for me

it's still early in the cooking

[half comet]

tbf it wouldnt be a disaster or anything

if u clicked bp

[fair anchor]

true

[half comet]

but ya optimal

[thick temple]

Ds aoe builds require shuriken tornado?

[alpine wraith]

not a huge win but it is whatever

[hazy breach]

no, you can pick veiltouched instead if you want

Added it to the pin because a lot of people asking about it

[west arch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[alpine wraith]

yea you do get used to tornado if you just want to spread ruptures kekw

or use after cds to get some cdr

or just use vt and do dmg anyway

so cares

one thing i will fight with anyone is tfd

[left ledge]

Is running finality impossible

I never bothered checking

[hazy breach]

Tfd not starting its timer sometimes is frustrating for sure

[hazy breach]

Its just not a great talent

[left ledge]

I’m guessing it would prob have to be rotting going

I mean for aoe

[hazy breach]

Yes

[left ledge]

It still bugs bp out right

[alpine wraith]

the worst one is when it randomly resets

i go AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

i have a lot of footage about it

[left ledge]

Yeah it says 6 sec out of combat or something

But requires like 12 sec

[hazy breach]

Sometimes it just stacks up on bosses after you vanish too

[alpine wraith]

no when it gets to like 1 sec

[hazy breach]

Thats an interesting one

[left ledge]

Huh

[alpine wraith]

then goes to 5

[left ledge]

What

[hazy breach]

Yes

[alpine wraith]

yea depends on party or boss

[left ledge]

You can get it mid boss???

[alpine wraith]

it is randomly

[hazy breach]

In dungeons

[alpine wraith]

we could kinda make a list but maybe next tier

im not entering all dungeons now

[hazy breach]

First boss grim batol is the one i know where it has happened

[left ledge]

Dude that could be huge

[alpine wraith]

even if i get paid

[hazy breach]

But its not every time

[left ledge]

Imagine you vanish afk

For a fat dance

[alpine wraith]

yea depends on teammates too

[left ledge]

Right before cds

[hazy breach]

Nah not even vanish afk

[alpine wraith]

things with hots or buffs on you

[left ledge]

You can hit???

[alpine wraith]

that one would be interesting

[hazy breach]

Again, it doesnt happen often

I have no idea what causes it

[left ledge]

We need a coordinated effort in finding out

[hazy breach]

Probably just some dungeon bosses have odd combat coding from cata

[left ledge]

Utilizing that feature could prove very nice

Yeah maybe

Global combat wasn’t a thing in cata I don’t think

[young path]

I just use a WA for first dance countdown tracker (and dont attack till its rdy), will see if I can vanish off to the side during a pull but probably wont be worth it sitting that long

[vale pine]

timewalking and recycle dungeons are always a big surface for bugs

[alpine wraith]

no shit hadal still can 50/50

despawn

from going near the statue

almost 10 years old bug now

[vale pine]

haha^^

[abstract skiff]

is anyone else sometimes having trouble getting 2nd sec tech off in 2nd dance with deathstalker or am i cooked

[alpine wraith]

what issues do you hve

remember you want to use first sec tech as first finisher in the initial dance

[brisk glade]

hi guys, im trying to learn subtlety, do u know any guide in youtube or something to learn it?

[alpine wraith]

there are great guides on the faq or here

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[alpine wraith]

or you can check out my videos too if you really like videos although i still havend done the new deathstalker ones

[brisk glade]

okey ty

and yes i pref videos so ill be rdy for your next 😄

[abstract skiff]

yes but if you get like no shaowcraft then second sec tech comes up around when 2nd dance ends

[brisk glade]

and there is any meta for raid/m+ or still using both hero talents in both content at the moment?

[alpine wraith]

usually that does not happen if you have a shaman in the party

but yes you can get unluck

[patent crystal]

is play deathstalker for queen, or still trickster?

[alpine wraith]

we need more data

on people actually playing it

deathstalker seems fine but annoying

[hazy breach]

Prob deathstalker, but if youve already progressed a bunch with trickster i dont think its that much better to swap

[alpine wraith]

only boss trickster would be a super gain for me would be bloodbound i got too used to timers and cdr

others deathstalker seems fineish

[vale pine]

silken trickster should be better, no?

[alpine wraith]

uh well not that much if you are blue you get some big dmg and also you can kinda get 3 DN if you time it well inside amp

but same as queen need more people trying to min max it kinda

although it is unlikely

[abstract skiff]

im playing deathstalker on queen now

its less fun

[alpine wraith]

with our playerbase

[brisk glade]

which bosses are trickster or deathstalker if i can ask

[alpine wraith]

we dont really know apart from the full st being better as DS

and well rasha nan and ulgrax are kinda st+pad

but the pad on DS actually helps st so

[hazy breach]

Ye very few disagree with this

[abstract skiff]

feels so strong p1

we are progressing p2 so hard to know

for me

feels like crap but the damage is big

[alpine wraith]

one thing i can vouch for queen is first dance

it is big for p1

but idk if overall i would pick it vs replicating although i hate replicating

havent tried queen M to super check

[patent crystal]

impressive they havent fixed replicating yet

[alpine wraith]

just copy paste from carnage

i wont tell anyone

[rancid surge]

Any general tips with mythic silken? My guild just killed princess and we are starting silken on Monday.

[alpine wraith]

cds are quite cut and dry

you can cloak second or third acid rain to not get 3 stacks

usually second

[rancid surge]

Gotcha I’ll make a ert personal note to keep it in mind thanks.

[mystic bough]

uhhhh

Is there a known bug with trickster (or in general) where as you're stuck on your screen and can not move but for others you're just walking next to them..???

I literally fricked up my m10 cuz of this lol

[alpine wraith]

nah that is a general bug

[mystic bough]

Is there any way to fix it?

Like to get out of the invisible 1x1 corner 😂

[ornate current]

!SOD

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[slate marlin]

on ds build, for raid, what do you drop for bosses with adds? gloomblade for imp storm?

[alpine wraith]

you drop shadow focus

[hazy breach]

Ye gloom+sf for imp storm+rs

or move rs into imp s ht

Shadow focus is completely useless, so if youre not speccing gloomblade

Theres no point to have it

[slate marlin]

ah i see

thx

[thick temple]

PSA disable tricks of the trade on last boss of NW

[alpine wraith]

that means you have tricks

so you already lost

[thick temple]

what you sub tricks for

[alpine wraith]

blackjack

[hazy breach]

Both are fine

[thick temple]

the only thing i sap is like that pack on mists lmfao

[alpine wraith]

it works with aoe blind

[hazy breach]

Its for the blind

[thick temple]

actually i blind a lot

oo maybe

[small hemlock]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[sly shore]

subs boss damage is pretty good

[vale pine]

sub is in general quite good now

[sly shore]

Yeah

what was the trickster vs deathstalker outcomes

[hazy breach]

Deathstalker playable in keys now

But i think trickster is prob better

[sly shore]

BP buff cucking deathstalker

[delicate rover]

Deathstalker is fun for burst iirc

[hazy breach]

I mean its got less burst than trickster

[delicate rover]

im just going on pvp mentality DS is for some reason burstier there

[vale pine]

trickster on cleave
deathstalker on st

[sly shore]

batchest

[vale pine]

i think trickster is better in m+

but migth be dependent on the dungeon

[alpine wraith]

depends more on goals and team likely

[vale pine]

flexibility is good

[rain smelt]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[patent crystal]

Deathstalker on queen feels fine, might be a lil better than trickster since its easier to hit small adds

[lilac stag]

You can cast BP as trickster for small adds.

[vernal drift]

yo guys wanted to ask, if cb is up do we sent it with the naked sectec/symbols or it doesnt matter? ( for ex. 1 min before flag/blades window)

[hazy breach]

Not really worth it though

If youre not macroing it i would sugest to only use it during your second sectech in blades+flag

[vernal drift]

cool

yeah have 2 binds for it. naked sectec / cb sectec

[hazy breach]

Technically you can use it at 45s too, but every second you delay it means delaying flag

So if you dont send it immediately its bad

[vernal drift]

also wanted to ask @hazy breach

progging on court atm , as trickster do we use ss to generate combo points out of dance or not? (if adds are around)

[alpine wraith]

storm on 2t+ unless flawless is down then you stab

[hazy breach]

Strike over storm

But storm over stab

[vernal drift]

thanks a lot guys

[upbeat sorrel]

what is the passive or talent that gives me full combo points after i use a finisher sometimes during my CDs

[patent crystal]

Shadowcraft

[delicate rover]

is gloomblade ever used?

[tepid trellis]

For DS yeah

[upbeat sorrel]

ty, is there any way to know its gonna proc ahead of time

https://wago.io/29WlExvpA

hmm found this maybe this works

[spark tusk]

!wa - My pack (and possibly others) have an icon for ShT, mine glows green when you have symbols active and have greater than 7 stacks (meaning it will refund ahead of time).

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[spark tusk]

I'll note that it's not 100% reliable because of the replicating shadows bug

but it works for the most part

[upbeat sorrel]

ill check it out ty

[spark tusk]

But the answer is, it will proc ahead of time if you have symbols up

and have 7+ stacks

[hazy breach]

Its gonna proc when you have enough sht stacks to fill your cp

[spark tusk]

so a simple WA that checks those is what you'd want

[hazy breach]

So if you have symbols up and use a finisher with 8 sht stacks, its gonna take 7 of them and give you full cp

[upbeat sorrel]

gotcha

[eager locust]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[bold lark]

reading the pins... do you sstrike in dance with 3 targets?

it says more than 3 for sstorm

[hazy breach]

strike

[edgy zenith]

depends on hero talent tree

[hazy breach]

Na

Its strike regardless at 3

[edgy zenith]

i was told by hacha like 3 hours ago to storm

[bold lark]

i wanna play some deathstalker for my weeklys

[edgy zenith]

at 3 targets as DS

2+ with CTW

[bold lark]

so it is deathstalker and i d like to know why its sstrike at 3

since it was always 3+ = sstorm

[hazy breach]

Because strike does more damage than storm

[bold lark]

sorry i mixed up stuff

[hazy breach]

No it wasnt

[bold lark]

i didnt play df so maybe things changed - thanks for taking your time to explain
my "old" knowledge was sstrike until 3 targets in dance

(in tww with trickster obv u just played sstrike)
was just confused why it would make sstrike better at 3 targets with deathstalker

[hazy breach]

Its like that regardless

But deathstalker also buffs strike by 50%

[bold lark]

ohhhhhh thanks i didnt know that
played assa all expansion

alright this makes sense.. cool

[upbeat sorrel]

ended up borrowing that icon for my UI ty

[sly shore]

sub blasts

black powder presser

[copper heron]

quick question about this: arent we pressing eviscerate in m+ because of nimble flurry as trickster? so the buffs dont really effect trickster in m+, why would it be better then? or what am i missing? i thought sub is better in keys now because of the powder buff, which is more a thing for deathstalker?

[wind canopy]

You’re hitting BP on 5+ targets

[copper heron]

oh ok. unless there is a prio target i guess? we are speaking strictly max-aoe dps right?

[humble gust]

why am I so bad at sub, im doing way more dmg on assa even though sims tell me i should do 200k more dps on sub

idk what im doing wrong, it must be the cd management somehow, i was much better with invigorating shadowdust

i try to have 2 charges of SD and symbols ready for SB, is that too much? should I use them more aggressively?

[lilac stag]

Assa requires very little thinking.

[humble gust]

ye

[hazy breach]

Yes

You need to be able to use 2 during flag+blades

But you dont need to have 2 at the start of it

1 charge and ~40s left on your second charge is enough

[humble gust]

time to practice in nhc

hm almost no one doing nhc, guess ill try tomorrow at a better time

[lilac stag]

You can practice in follower dungeons

[humble gust]

with 629 itemlvl i dont think i get much in in follower dungeons 😄

or do they scale?

[lilac stag]

You’re learning to watch your CDs

[upbeat sorrel]

So as DS, strike on 3 and then BP on 2+?

[lilac stag]

You can also unequip gear

[hazy breach]

yes

[fair anchor]

Coup not giving SnD is a pita

With new SD sequence as trickster, SnD falls off if you had TFD, have to press evis to get it back instead of BP

[tepid trellis]

shoulda seen what i did to ovinax

[short radish]

are you german?

[tepid trellis]

we kill it too fast tho, we dont get the massive set in third sector

easy 3mil+

if we got that

[sly shore]

I dropped the ball at 6 mins

could fit a dance but wasn't sure

how long til adds and lust

cos not raided with this guild

[tepid trellis]

we killed at 6:30 with 1 guy dead

no massive pack

big sadge

we need to either do less dps

or go even faster

[sly shore]

ye

getting to the point where assa will lose 6m cd

[tepid trellis]

i was doing 3.2 at 5:30

it was an absolute ZINGER

[sly shore]

🥶

[tepid trellis]

then just 1 min of only boss ruined it

i think if we shaved off 10-15 sec

it woulda been rank 1

but alas

we did not

wo we ended at 2.68mil

unfort

just wait till i hit 638

i shall be unleashed

then i OMEGA griefed Kyveza just after it

too eager on dances and sent my last set to fast instead of just waiting for pot

it was not it

[small juniper]

surely u can do more @tepid trellis

unless i was getting aug buff

i did 2.5 mil at 620 ilvl on broodtwister

[tepid trellis]

my guess would be aug'd

or you ran a comp with 0 AoE

[idle aurora]

Wait as trickster I should be using black powder now?

[tepid trellis]

at 5 and above yeh

[tribal blade]

need more BP buffs until it's good for trickster to BP at 2 targets

[hazy breach]

And deathstalker bp on St

[tribal blade]

hell yeah

[humble gust]

ye

[wind canopy]

#BuffEvis

[tribal blade]

DS with evis buffs would be

kinda going nuts

but fuck it, do it

BUFF IT

[short radish]

why does every german refer to it as nhc

it's just a german thing i swear

[fallow nimbus]

Yea

[humble gust]

non-heroic

[short radish]

havent seen anyone else in EU refer to it as that

but like

[fallow nimbus]

It's not hc

[short radish]

why not just say normal

or n

or nm

🤣

[humble gust]

its from when there was only hc and not hc

[short radish]

fair

[humble gust]

something else only germans seem to do but i think makes more sense

call dps DD

[fallow nimbus]

Damage dealer

[humble gust]

for damage dealer

[short radish]

ye thats not as weird i think

[humble gust]

youre not a damage per second youre a damage dealer

[fallow nimbus]

Yes

[short radish]

when i played maple story 20 years ago

it was also DD

[humble gust]

damn you might be older than me

[short radish]

acutally you're right

DD makes way more sense than DPS

which monkey started calling DD players DPS

[humble gust]

idk i only noticed it when cross realm raiding became a thing in cata i think

[short radish]

im gonna start calling DPS DD from now on

[humble gust]

o7

[short radish]

#changestartswithyou

[fallow nimbus]

Let's call healer hps

[short radish]

trueee

what about tanks

DTPS?

[tepid trellis]

freaks

frontal turners

[humble gust]

tps - threat per second

[tepid trellis]

you think tanks have threat?

[short radish]

you think some DD do damage?

[tepid trellis]

you call them that

i dont

[humble gust]

>give tank tricks of the trade
>still steal aggro in opener
>

[tepid trellis]

just be a sub otp

never aggro issues

Dance goated frfr

[hazy breach]

The theat redirect takes a millisecond or two so you just cant shadowstrike tp into a mob nobody has touched yet

[short radish]

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx95yUUnz9VK5SFZcnIFydbzzazIH3jDPE?si=__KUSkPZFxPLE_og

[eager locust]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tribal blade]

this exact thing responsible for so many sub rogue deaths in keys

[sleek vine]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[eager locust]

Where can i see M+ opener?

[uneven fern]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[uneven fern]

i dont think these are outdated

[tacit aspen]

where do i post logs for assistnace? i'm trying to get my heroic silken court up to a 95 and im hardstuck at like a 91. Trying to figure out what im doin wrong

[idle aurora]

can i stupid question

on dummies im getting more dmg by using evis 😮

as opposed to black powder

is the black powder difference huge?

[tribal blade]

are you making sure to get FW up on the targets

give it a try where you consume first rotten with strike, then the 2nd with storm

[idle aurora]

oh god interactions i dont understand

oh ok

wait after i symbols are i dance sec tec

[tribal blade]

yeah sectec as first finisher

strike as 1st builder

and then storm as 2nd builder

[idle aurora]

then bp

do you even use strike then?

[tribal blade]

those thing happen in w/e order you ahve the combo points to do it in

[tribal blade]

just 1 storm buffed by rotten during dance

and then you can strike the rest of the time

but make sure the rotten charge you use to storm is the 2nd charge

not the 1st

because there's a bug where if you consume the 1st charge with storm it will consume both charges

[viral phoenix]

so just to be clear from pack to pack in M+ w/ deathstalker it goes something like get DN on the prio target > spread ruptures on every target that wont die immediately to cooldowns > cooldowns?

or can u get away with rupturing before DN'ing

[idle aurora]

ohhh im playing trickester

is the black powder thing a deathstalker thing

fml 😄

[slate marlin]

What they told you earlier was with trickster

[viral phoenix]

w/ trickster BP at 5+ now yeah

buff big

[tribal blade]

when you open on a new pack with strike from stealth you'll apply the mark to your target, even with DN up

[idle aurora]

😦 i think my game is broken lol

[tribal blade]

so you can prob just ignore the DN proc

[viral phoenix]

smart smart

[tribal blade]

i think nimble is still bugged on the target dummies, but even accounting for the bug BP is hitting harder than nimble for me

[weary kite]

we take Shuriken Tornado on ST with Deathstalker?

[alpine wraith]

on single target no

[tribal blade]

nado is really bad on ST

[young roost]

with the recent changes is the stat priority still vers/mas?

[pliant topaz]

yea

[tribal blade]

oh yeah BP does way more than nimble in keys

nimble

BP

[lunar bluff]

5+ is BP now ?

[tribal blade]

for trickster yeah

[fierce minnow]

What have they done

[tribal blade]

what they've done is made sub rogue have like 3 different rotations for aoe

[short radish]

But why.

[tribal blade]

DS has it's own completley unique aoe rotation

so does tricskter

BUT

trickster you ahve a completely different rotation for under 5 targets

and one for above 5 targets

isn't this fun

[fierce minnow]

idk i just freestyle anyway

[short radish]

Just reduce cost of storm. Please blizzard

[fierce minnow]

But reading this gave me another stack of the cancer debuff

Why cant rogue be simple for once

[short radish]

Bring back abberus rogue

Where we had flattest dps profile

[fierce minnow]

nah we gotta swap shit around for maximum cringe

the appeal of trickster was to never BP, an outlaw with actual burst

and don’t get me started on automated thistle tea. Just delete it already and buff energy reg below x-% by y-amount. (Mostly assassination)

while at it, delete energy, double down on the CP mechanic

energy for outlaw serves no purpose other than induce pain if you don’t get enough resets in. Sub? i basically never look at energy. The refund on finishers artificially sustains your poor energy bar. The spec is playable without having a visible energy bar… assassination has triple the energy pool just to make it “engaging” and then you macro tea to shiv because robot does so

cooked take, its early, bear with me.

[pliant topaz]

theres a major issue with bp kinda though

its find weakness

if you have it

pretty sure its a gain on 5+

but to get nimble u gotta storm, but if youre storming, youre not getting UB (it also cleaves with nibke), youre not getting fazed, youre not getting coup, or flawless form

so it creates the thing that Eleem suggested

-> strict sequencing of strike sectech storm (with 2nd rotten stack) bp.

like if u want even more, you can actully bp on 4 targets for dm stackk for ~2%

[fierce minnow]

i mean its pretty rigid, since you need storm to crit via rotten

the FW on other targets does increase flurry dmg right?

[tribal blade]

it's a shit show

[pliant topaz]

yes. so technically it is a dps gain to tab target strike for fw on 2 targets specifically

[fair stump]

am I crazy or BP is doing less than nimble?

[tribal blade]

it's doing a lot more for me

[fair stump]

No, in the two screenshots you posted

One is 310M the other one is 152M

[tribal blade]

yeah nimble is cleaving autos too

i'm mostly looking at the big hits

[fair stump]

You still generate with ss, right?

You just storm once for FW

[haughty mural]

Dw we get bug fixes soon

Or another big plague dmg buff 💪

[rocky ocean]

how about magic damage buff

[unkempt trench]

If I'm attacking multiple ads, should I be using Backstab instead of FOK if Flawless Form is up?

[wind canopy]

I doubt sub will see the bug fixes this week. Holiday weekend so unlikely anything gets announced tomorrow

[alpine wraith]

you only use stab to get flawless up if there is more than 1 target outside dance you storm

[fair anchor]

Yeah we're not getting bug fixes for many holiday week-ends dont hold your breath :p

[lilac stag]

Assa players FOKing with sub. Smhmhhead.

[tribal blade]

hey dude

when do i get spatter up

to cleave evis

[wind canopy]

[lilac stag]

Pop Bladeflurry & KiR first.

Then Carrot Coup

[haughty mural]

FW uptime annoyance in aoe for bp I almost forgot about your game while playing trickster this addon

Welcome back

Glad exists

[alpine wraith]

maybe if silent storm was not super krangled position wise

[tribal blade]

OR conversely get rid of shadowed finishers

and make evis+BP shadow damage

[alpine wraith]

i hate shadowed finishers so much

and also sec tech

all this split dmg bs

[gritty knot]

Ye same. Yday in Mist +14 first pull with pre potion I peaked at around 8 million DPS and idk how many targets those are but not too many tbh. I wonder what one can do in Necrotic now for example

[alpine wraith]

i have done 21m on first pull NW

deathstalker is cooked

but uh

[gritty knot]

Hahahaha. Damn. I didn't play DS tho, I still play trickster

[tribal blade]

yeah BP is doing monster dam right now

[alpine wraith]

i have to do the deathstalker videos zzzzzz

wish me luck later today

[tribal blade]

i should try DS too

[alpine wraith]

i also think i found a guild at least

[gritty knot]

Ye now I want a video too @alpine wraith and also I ll try DS later too tbh. Sounds crazy

I guess for some dungeons Trickster will still be slightly ahead because of the pulls. But idk. Somebody needs to test that honestly.

[alpine wraith]

i mean if you do normal pulls they should be quite similar

but it is same thing as assa kinda if you pull big things like witness that are uncapped and singular focus begin going hard

also im my case i do weekly keys so mobs dont even survive that long

[zenith oriole]

How is deathstalker in m+ now? Trickster still better?

[cerulean beacon]

should we always have 2 dances up for another round of flag+SB?

[alpine wraith]

depends on hero talents

as trickster 1 stack 30 secs or so is ok

as deathstalker you want 1 stack 40 secs or s

[topaz raptor]

kush's build for this siege 15