subtlety

[gleaming plank]

good shit

[honest saddle]

I dunno what trickster looks like there

[alpine wraith]

depends quite a bit on group and lvl

best i've done is like 2.4m

[honest saddle]

yeah, they didnt pull big at all

no double packs

[alpine wraith]

yea that one is sadge

you can also pull so much on bosses there

although kinda danger on second

[honest saddle]

he played VERY safe

which was good honestly

we timed it

so gg

[vale pine]

nixw

*nice

[honest saddle]

it felt less bursty

but didnt suffer as badly on bad pulls

no tank dam pulls

it crushed on bosses

and was competitive on trash

boss 1 trash*

[upbeat sorrel]

[honest saddle]

boss 1

and it felt kinda brainless honestly

[upbeat sorrel]

did you take finality

[honest saddle]

nope

no idea if this is cook or shit

im not very good at cooking

[upbeat sorrel]

this is the one sheet has

[alpine wraith]

i would not play that

[upbeat sorrel]

is the one on eleem's guide better

[alpine wraith]

likely this one is what i would play

[alpine wraith]

yea finality is not that good anyway

[honest saddle]

only difference between mine and eleem is I played weaponmaster and he has first dance

I think I like first dance

[alpine wraith]

ye tfd is very good in m+

[honest saddle]

yeah, and with fok spam

weaponmaster is bad

KICK IT TO THE CURB

[alpine wraith]

what fok

you cur

[hazy breach]

Weaponmaster aint that good for trickster either

[honest saddle]

SHURIKEN OR WHATEVERRRRR

[hazy breach]

The extra strikes arent getting cleaved

[honest saddle]

yeah you are 100% right, first dance is the play

[upbeat sorrel]

[hazy breach]

Could also play VT and skip nado

Fuck nado

[honest saddle]

I dunno even know when to use nado

I just used it when it was up and the pack was big

Not sure if I should use it with dance, or not

but I did

[upbeat sorrel]

never liked nado anyway tbh

[fair anchor]

Now that BP does almost as much as evisc, are we using BP once in SD for macabre stacks ?

[honest saddle]

I think tech still needs to go second in sequence? So unless it's a late finisher you would just want the evisc to be the first?

[remote blaze]

the rotten or finality in m+ hmm

[alpine wraith]

for tornado with tfd because it is longer you kinda CAN use it at the beginning

[hazy breach]

It doesnt matter

[alpine wraith]

and not use SoD until like 3 secs in

so you dont fuck up shadowcraft

but idk

do remember to use a strike every dance tho premed is biggus dickus

and some people forget

[honest saddle]

in m+ ive been dance into shuriken into evisc into strike into sec tech

[alpine wraith]

i will have to actually try it (ugh) and see

[hazy breach]

Not worth

[alpine wraith]

actually i wonder if you have momentum up if it would be fine

[hazy breach]

na

[alpine wraith]

but still the diff from evis to bp is big enough to ignore

we dont have a lot of crit anyway

[hazy breach]

2 is with despair up but its mostly just not using it, thats why its better

[alpine wraith]

i do like the changed opener to get DN and sec tech charged

but i dont think the diff is big

also kekw witness critting for almost 3xxk

[small kestrel]

Hello all! I am new here and had a question while trying to do the mage tower. How are they skipping the arcane phase? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQw_ViOv4Ak&t=22s&ab_channel=YasaiPirates

[silent ruin]

Is there an improved shadow dance bug ? 😮

[patent epoch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[honest saddle]

it's been a while since most of us have done mage tower, when does arcane phase begin?

[patent epoch]

are the numbers updated in this spreadsheet?

[alpine wraith]

not yet

[strange chasm]

So DS rotation stays same. Sec tech 2nd finisher

Or is it first unless DN is up

[alpine wraith]

second option in cds

otherwise you will struggle to use 2 sec techs in transmitter

also have to pop transmitter just after sec tech to have more leeway

[strange chasm]

So sectech first still always

[alpine wraith]

on normal dances it is fine to have it second just watch out on the DN counter

so you dont have to use it 3rd

[patent epoch]

Will the buffs bring sub in line with assa power in dungeons?

[alpine wraith]

maybe have a little warning at 1 stack in dance

you will need to pull more for sub to be closer to assa

otherwise it alsmost the same as trickster

[vast basin]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[honest saddle]

Unlikely. There isn't anything that allows sub to do 9+ million on trash pulls. So very hard to do assassination damage.

[hazy breach]

Prob not, but well see

[alpine wraith]

sub can do 10m+ on pulls

rn even just buff will make it 20m

[honest saddle]

not as consistely as assassion

[alpine wraith]

but they have to be super big

[molten citrus]

the video says how

[alpine wraith]

imagine watching a video

[molten citrus]

"skip duplication by using CC properly"

[hazy breach]

Sub can def do 10M more than assa

[small kestrel]

what does that mean i have watched it and i dont see waht they are doing to skip

iv tried and the phase still happends

[honest saddle]

he uses gouge

[hazy breach]

The problem is that sub does 1m inbetween

[molten citrus]

just watch everything they cast

[hazy breach]

Assa does 3m

[alpine wraith]

we just go down in dps faster and outside cds we do noodler

[crisp cradle]

is preem work with shadowmeld?

[hazy breach]

Njet

[alpine wraith]

no you need to enter stealth

[molten citrus]

it could've also been fixed, the video is from last patch

[strange chasm]

I think in probably half the dungeons sub is even with ass

Then half sin is clearly better

[elfin hound]

what is the mark bug?

[alpine wraith]

cant snip marks if DN is up

[elfin hound]

huuuuh

[rough sigil]

So this might be a really noob question, but what counts as externals? Do raid buffs count as externals?

I assume PI and maybe dragon bard count as externals but not sure about anything else

[weary kite]

Are we taking RS with the new DS?

[covert grove]

Externals are like when your priest puts pain suppression on someone or a pally uses blessing of sacrifice

[topaz raptor]

Externals in the context of warcraftlogs dps rankings will be PI yes and maybe blessing of summer

[alpine wraith]

blessing of summer got changed

now it heals from dmg or deals dmg from healing

maybe autumn if so

actually autumn sould be quite good on sub now

[topaz raptor]

Autumn yeah, i think it’s still in

[alpine wraith]

btw if people dont know atumnn gives cdr over 30 secs

but well time to sleep now zzzzz

pray for good vault

[tidal python]

I'll take the fact that trickster is simming 10% lower than Deathstalker for my character as confirmation the buffs are in

[swift tinsel]

Ye

[heady summit]

Hi guys, I have a question, is the passive ability follow the blood bugged?

[topaz raptor]

I don’t think anyone has ever specced that node for long enough to test it

What’s wrong with it

[tacit aspen]

any new talent builds?

[swift tinsel]

#subtlety message

[teal night]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[jaunty heath]

its not showing which hero talent is this

[topaz raptor]

Follow the blood and momentum are on a deathstalker choice node

[swift tinsel]

?

[swift tinsel]

"Follow the blood is bugged. doesnt work with shadowed finishers"

[jaunty heath]

there's no updated written guide?

[craggy quest]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sssoMxTCGhSJhfS7bQiPu9 not sure if the new buffs have been pushed on raidbots but this go crazy

[weary kite]

yeah, its like significantly more dmg :C

[swift tinsel]

This feels considerably less fun with no coup cdr and sectech cdr

[honest saddle]

you guys using anything intelligent to remind yourself to SOD before each pull/after each wipe?

[heady summit]

Momentum it does appear active in the UI and apparently it is activated as it says in its description of the ability, which does not happen with follow the blood.

[honest dome]

made a big text WA that tells me to press it which only loads OOC and in Raid

[rough sigil]

I remember in DF there was a pinned simcraft info that let us sim all the flasks/weapon consumables. Is there still such thing? I am not very well versed in what to write into raidbots.

[swift tinsel]

https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/266712108861751296 first pin @rough sigil

[rough sigil]

TY!

[idle aurora]

soooooo my vault was hot trash

mythic skardyns, and some mythic gear a rang launcher

i have never even heard of the gear a rang launcher

[sullen hare]

I actually got a myth track dagger this vault

Skardyns is good if you wanna fiddle around with flexing to assass occasionally

[idle aurora]

i dont have transmitter

do i take it just to have something on demand

[sullen hare]

Rip

Yeah. I think for raid it'll feel like complete ass but in m+ it'll feel fine

[glacial forum]

anyone can rrecommend me a good pov of subrogue in M+?

[unkempt trench]

Do I use a 639 Dead-eye Spyglass over a 626 Void Reapers/Mad Queens?

Or I can take a 639 Helm with I can catalyst to tier (but its not recommended to use helm tier)

[lucid jackal]

Whats the deathstalker build

[rough sigil]

I was just about to ask this!

[jaunty heath]

anyone got deathstalker M+ build?

[tribal blade]

unforch not, but maybe now that DS sub got mega buffed you'll start seeing some streamers use it

[honest saddle]

yes 100% skardyns is still very good

[tribal blade]

pretty fucking good vault tbh

these wrists are especially huge for sin

[vestal escarp]

nice sin wrists

[tribal blade]

not bad for sub too

[unkempt trench]

is 639 dead-eye spyglass better than 626 void-reaper/mad queen?

[tribal blade]

you'd need to sim that

but likely it's better because it's +10 ilvls of main stat

(just guessing)

[honest saddle]

what do you think for silken DS?

no idea if this is good or bad

just want opinions

[tribal blade]

the main thing that worries me about playing DS on silken is having to juggle the mark

[honest saddle]

I think I am playing trick

but want to start at least thinking about DS

[unkempt trench]

what does juggling the mark mean?

[tame terrace]

mark jugglign prob so much easier as sub than sin tho

putting ds mark on the damage amp target

[tribal blade]

deathstalker's mark is only ever on 1 target

and it's annoying to put it on another target

less annoying than sin, but still

[fair stump]

Yeah, having dance means applying mark is easier

[topaz raptor]

does dance strike work

[tribal blade]

it does

[unkempt trench]

how do u know if a target is damage amped? do sub rogue have a skill for that

[topaz raptor]

oh that's not really that bad then

[tame terrace]

silken court damage amp

the mechanic

its not a sub thing

[unkempt trench]

o u mean when its threaded in the middle

[honest saddle]

yeah, or dispel disoriented

[topaz raptor]

yeah or stinging swarm stunned

[tame terrace]

at least as sub dropping mark isnt a huge issue

since its so much easier to reapply

[topaz raptor]

yeah sin is a 2 min cd and the spec has more setup time too

[honest saddle]

what do you think about replicating shadows on silken as trick or ds

[tame terrace]

like fucking up the timing and ur marked target goes away during intermission is pain

[forest moss]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[fair stump]

What else would you play?

[honest saddle]

as DS you either take Replicating or you take shadow focus or improved shad technique

[tribal blade]

RS is the best option on silken

cdr is less scuffed using imp sht though

because when you play RS you have a lot of CPs eaten

[glacial forum]

ill keep an eye on kush tomorrow maybe he will play it

[honest saddle]

Like I am pretty sure this is the DS silken build

I dont think anything else makes sense

unless deeper daggers is worse than 1 pt finalty

and I dont think it is

[thick temple]

Since DS the main highlight of the patch, Does this alter our rotation in keys/raid? Is the focus not around sod/sectec lineups anymore or is everyone still figuring that out.

I've been on trickster for so long I forgot what the actual niche of Ds is, i heard it was always bugged lok

[honest saddle]

its pretty much the same as Trickster rotation

with some nuance

you still line everything up the same way

[tame terrace]

u sometimes use shuriken storm

[fair stump]

Basically, you consume DN buff as top priority

[tame terrace]

deathstalker's mark / prioritizing 7cp for darkest night

• using shuriken storm for clear the witness (outside of symbols)

[fair stump]

I'm guessing we're also sending finishers at +5cp instead of +6cp

[thick temple]

Wait we have to spec into storm now I've never used storm

[tame terrace]

did i say storm

no i meant storm

not tornado

[thick temple]

Wait I forgot which is which tbh

Which one is blue

[tame terrace]

tornado is the talent

[thick temple]

Ok

[tame terrace]

storm is fok

[topaz raptor]

do you finish on 5

[tribal blade]

nah shouldn't be

[unkempt trench]

so i after i consume the 3rd DS mark, i need to make sure i have like 10+ combo points to maximize darknest night?

[thick temple]

I finish whenever luxthos bar turns green or white

[tame terrace]

10cp?

whatever the max is, so 7

[fair stump]

DS procs at 5+ cp tho

Isn't it a loss to still go for 6+?

[swift tinsel]

You'll still try to finish at 6+

Mark just stipulates 5 or more

[tribal blade]

iirc the play was finishing at 5 on the beta, but later on 6+ is better

[fair stump]

Huh

Interesting, considering assa finishes at 5

[tame terrace]

sin finishes at 5 because it doesnt build as fast

[fair stump]

I'll assume its because assa has less access to CP than sub?

Yeah

[tribal blade]

i assumed it's because sub has a big emphasis on finisher damage

[swift tinsel]

And you can chain envenoms easier

possibly also less cp waste with seal fate

[topaz raptor]

yeah there's a lot of waste mutilating on 5

[amber ocean]

is mad queens still affected by lingering darkness? wondering about that combo for silken court if you swapped to DS

probably troll over the free cleave from Trickster still

[mild vessel]

im having a hard time finding a decent M+ build for ds ?

is the method one good or wowhead

both very diff

nvm method 1 seems outdated

[tribal blade]

well BP buff definitely went through

BP and sectec dmg used to be much closer

[slate marlin]

Is that with db or rotten?

[tribal blade]

literally just the same build we were using as trickster in keys

so prob not a super optimized build for DS

[slate marlin]

Im just curious if db is better than the extra charge of sod+rotten

[tribal blade]

doubt it

BUT who knows

it also looks like singular focus is doing more than before

i wonder if that's because BP is doing more, of if the plague dmg buffs actually affected it's dmg

[slate marlin]

if they singular focus

wouldnt the tooltip be updated as well?

[tribal blade]

i don't follow, sorry

oh right

[slate marlin]

if they buffed*** mb

[tribal blade]

the thing is they did a blanket 45% buff to plague dmg, and singular focus is plague damage, BUT it's just a % of the dmg you do to all other targets

[rustic raven]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tribal blade]

so it's not clear if it's included in the buff

likely not since it's supposed to be just a % of all the dmg you do to your non-marked targets

but BP is now hitting pretty fucking hard

[wind canopy]

Won't always be the case

[slate marlin]

Yes, blizzard after all

[bright sundial]

is this the right dis?

[amber ocean]

Is the APL updated with the buffs? For simming

[tribal blade]

could be

[left ledge]

does lingering darkness still work on trinkets

[strange chasm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[strange chasm]

Is this what people are using for deathstalker

imt vs gloomblade?

[idle aurora]

I took crit vers cape :0

[honest saddle]

Don't worry, transmitter this week SURELY

[honest saddle]

for ST yes

you're dead on

[idle aurora]

😄

[tribal blade]

BP buffed by supercharger

[viral phoenix]

whats the rule on reapplying rupture if its not active during cooldowns? Specifically on flag/shadow blades in between shadow dances?

dont cause flag/transmitter better for evisces there?

[tribal blade]

ideally you never have that situation happen

so no matter what you choose to do, you're losing damage in that situation

[viral phoenix]

true, but unless ur particular with reapplying ruptures on silken court for example it happens

[tepid trellis]

It’s better to early refresh a rupture than doing it during a dance

[viral phoenix]

dont rupture till flagellation/dances are over?

yes?

[tepid trellis]

Nah plan ahead if u know the boss is gonna charge away into a dmg amp with your cds you early refresh a max rupture

[viral phoenix]

kk

[tepid trellis]

Or do your cds like you would on pull either works. Just makes it very tight

[viral phoenix]

makes what tight? 2nd sec tech w/ transmitter?

[pseudo fiber]

So people, i just zapped in! What finisher/gainer do we use in a SoD and SD Window first with DS?

[topaz raptor]

do i just randomly bust out sub in this 4/8m pug

[uneven fern]

Ya

[topaz raptor]

it has to be easy right

[tepid trellis]

Was more in regards to the dmg amp on silken

[viral phoenix]

oh i see ok

[deft star]

Have the DS single target talents changed at all?

[plush roost]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[pseudo fiber]

is this the "after the patch" sim?

[pliant topaz]

cute

[tribal blade]

SHEEEEESH

[swift tinsel]

are yall running with the same m+ spec talents as with trickster?

or is that with 2 charge symbols and db

[hazy breach]

The same

Can swap vt for nado if youd like

[strange chasm]

We thinking trickster for brood

or ds might be kinda cracked

since ads do die kinda fast

[young path]

aaaaaaaaaaaaand back to trickster i go... DS feels rough in keys, ngl

[plain zephyr]

If playing DS, do you Shuriken Storm after applying deathmark?

Or only outside of Dance

[brisk onyx]

No fucking nado

[strange chasm]

Ok DS is kinda insane on Brood

3.67 mil overall b4 we wiped on the reclear

[pliant topaz]

I will say, i hate this

[strange chasm]

Like BP slams lmao

[short radish]

reckon DS is the play now as well for mythic ansurek?

[swift tinsel]

Love how it went from people coming in here talking about how much they love Death Perception Trickster to how bad DS feels in comparison

[tribal blade]

needing to completely redo muscle memory between the 2 hero trees

is fucking cancer

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I feel like I'm playing wrong

whereas trickster is pure vibes

[tribal blade]

it's just crazy how the aoe rotation becomes completely different between the 2

like, not even close to each other

[fallow nimbus]

Just think st when playing trickster

[pliant topaz]

it actually feels so bad LMFAO

[formal estuary]

SUB GOATED?

[fallow nimbus]

From this point we can only lose

[left ledge]

ill be honest

deathstalker feels better than coup/RS bug trickster

[fallow nimbus]

[left ledge]

we're basically playing a dumbed down version of s3 df

[short radish]

wym

[left ledge]

maybe if trickster didnt munch

500 combo points

every pull

[fallow nimbus]

+mark

[hazy breach]

What

[left ledge]

what

are you gonna argue

the bugs dont exist

[hazy breach]

I have no idea how youre losing that much

[left ledge]

idk literally

[hazy breach]

But then just play imp sht

[left ledge]

every dance

i lose cp

nah even without RS

[hazy breach]

Its like -0.3%

[left ledge]

i lose but its just not as bad

its still annoying as shit

[hazy breach]

??

To what

[left ledge]

qhr?

idk man

[pliant topaz]

its also notr tricksters fault. its RS

u can litearlly take improved sht instead of RS for like 0.4% sim dps

[hazy breach]

Need rs in any form of aoe abyway

[pliant topaz]

yep

[tepid trellis]

Can’t make me

[pliant topaz]

kush

that u?

[tepid trellis]

Rude

[pliant topaz]

sorry

went too far

[tepid trellis]

Don’t ever

Call a Dane a Swede

[hazy breach]

[wind canopy]

[digital needle]

We love being called swedes wdym

[left ledge]

i can promise you

unless it was fixed recently

it was not only RS

its coup

[pliant topaz]

theres 2 bugs

1 RS

[left ledge]

it procs a cp reset

[pliant topaz]

1 stealth

[left ledge]

each hit of coup

[pliant topaz]

theyre not trickster related

[left ledge]

can give you a shadowcraft reset

[pliant topaz]

nah coup just lasts longer thana normal gcd so in your mind youre not used to getting the refund at that time

its mostly in your head i promise

[left ledge]

no i can promise you

ive lost CP to it

i didnt run RS

when the bug appeared

[tepid trellis]

Coup gives delayed refunds

[left ledge]

yeah

then mix that with RS

and holy shit its aids

i already complained about RS here during DF every single day in s3

[tepid trellis]

The refund can happen anywhere in the coup window

It has def thrown me off a few times

[hazy breach]

I mean sure its annoying but its not really losing you many cps

Idk

[tepid trellis]

I just had to adjust my craft refund wa

[left ledge]

the coup bug itself may not be that bad

its mostly feel i agree

it does lose some cp though

which is tilting, but then you mix it with RS

idk, i hate deathstalker but i cant stand playing with cps being so clunky

[hazy breach]

Deathstalker doesnt make it better though

[tepid trellis]

I just don’t play with RS

[topaz raptor]

do you even play

[tepid trellis]

Once a week

Quick lil 8/8 then afk for 7 days

Like god intended

[topaz raptor]

amen

[left ledge]

ofc

when we have a buyer

ofc

[short radish]

[tribal blade]

i dunno this shit feels fucking awful

in raid

but we're doing normal clear for the buff

so hard t osay

[left ledge]

oh btw

that 1h

had avoidance

[short radish]

guess its outlaw time

[edgy zenith]

is it normal to lose Clear the Witnesses? like I'm not getting to use all of the procs because I'm in symbols

[hazy breach]

yes

[strange chasm]

lets go!

[tribal blade]

huge!

hunt them down is doing

illegal amounts of dmg

for just existing

alright we're bout to use DS on court

see how this goes

[strange chasm]

I think trickster still better tbh

atleast on court

[short radish]

is it still really shadow strike at 4 targets or less as DS in aoe with dance?

[tribal blade]

yeah this shit is awful on court

there's no way i'm playing DS

[spice matrix]

buff trickster

[tribal blade]

DS felt alright on some fights

not too bad

[swift tinsel]

court made my want to alt+f4 and go to bed

[edgy zenith]

i cranked princess as DS

ngl

1.5M

insane damage

[strange chasm]

trickster court sub just feels too good

legit doing 2 mil

[tribal blade]

yeah on pure ST DS feels pretty good

[strange chasm]

honestly give sectech 10% cdr

and DS will feel better

[pliant topaz]

it needs more dance cdr

not just sectech cdr

[tribal blade]

just more cdr overall

would be tight

my idea is make sectec only usable in dance

so you guaranteed get 1 sectec per dance

[brisk rampart]

raid player sub vs ass ??

[wind harness]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[pliant topaz]

maybe, but also that kinda breaks the flow of the spec

like u want to dance when sectech is within the threshold

but now when do u dance

[tribal blade]

true, that's a good point

[pliant topaz]

like it can be solvable

like u anchor darkest night / coup

[tribal blade]

i suppose you would kinda be able to dance whenever you want with that setup

[pliant topaz]

but in general yea

[tribal blade]

on demand sub damage 😉

[pliant topaz]

ive been litearlly listening to this on repeat for almost 2.5 hours

i may need therapy

[swift tinsel]

This whole season makes me need therapy

Interested to see where they go next

[pliant topaz]

the lead writer had an interview

with necrit

to talk about it

if u wanna watch it

[swift tinsel]

Oh? I'll have to check it out after raid

[hazy breach]

Playground from s1 is a banger too

[kind bluff]

Do you ever sechtech without symbols?

[swift tinsel]

because there were a lot of teases that could potentially be pretty neat

[pliant topaz]

theres so many bangers in this show man

the dance song, im not posting cuz spoiler

[swift tinsel]

They're choreographed so fucking well with every scene they're in too

[pliant topaz]

but like

fuck me man

[round latch]

irrelevant but why is renekton losing so hard to mundo top lane now

did mundo get a gigabuff or something

[strange chasm]

If no one uses DS

[wind harness]

is this that bad for sub?

stats wise

[hazy breach]

Its not great

[wind harness]

am i better with x2 crafted daggers?

[hazy breach]

Probably not, sim it

[wind harness]

can't sim yet, need to redo all my gear

it has outlaw stats

[pliant topaz]

mundo destroys low elos

people dont expect it

[kind bluff]

Anyone have the website that has the cd usage for sub?

[pliant topaz]

hes probably trading into his passive too

[pliant topaz]

lorrgs

[kind bluff]

Ty

[strange chasm]

also

we huge

[topaz agate]

are there any talent differences in the spec/class tree for deathstalker?

[pliant arrow]

Do we have a m+ build with DS? havent touched those hero talents post removal of dust

[round latch]

cool cool

[topaz agate]

@pliant topaz help pls uwu

[pliant topaz]

a bit, in pure single target trickster takes replicating shadow, deathstalker takes gb

thats the main difference in pure single target.

in terms of spec tree

eleem in the pin has a tldr on the gameplay differences

[topaz agate]

okok ty

im blind i didnt see the talent loadout underneath

gg

[hazy breach]

I added it now

[kind bluff]

So do we use symbol and dance on cd together or just use one at 2 stacks of dance?

[strange chasm]

ok

DS on queen

is actually fucking ass

Do not play that garbage

[storm vault]

DS feels nice in M+ actually

Was using it in Ara and Dawn

[pliant arrow]

How is it in small packs?

[storm vault]

Horrible

You'll want to kill yourself

[pliant arrow]

Back to good old sub then iguess

[balmy trench]

"feels nice"

[storm vault]

When I did the ara Kara tank went middle before the last boss and fought the 2 last guys alone and I thought about quitting the key

[hazy breach]

I mean its pretty similar on low target counts to trickster

[jaunty heath]

guys in classic era, is there addons?

[round latch]

the DS drama for no reason actually

[storm vault]

Trickster just sorta never feels bad tho. When damage is low youre not like "this feels horrible to play"

[round latch]

download curseforge,download classic on app,browse for addons from there,there are plenty

[storm vault]

DS on the other hand if its less than 5 mobs im pissed. Thus me using it in the dungeons I did

[hazy breach]

Why would deathstalker feel bad on low target counts though

Compared to trickster

[storm vault]

Idk. Felt I lacked energy even worse out of dance for some reason

Probably not entirely used to it but that was my finding

[hazy breach]

Theres literally no difference, if anything deathstalker has more energy

Because darkest night gives some

[storm vault]

Im aware

[fair stump]

Sub applies so much more DN than sin

[round latch]

this^

[storm vault]

Still felt worse than trickster in that 2 target pack

[jaunty heath]

but it says classic cataclysm

[storm vault]

I dont play Sin. Dont even talk to me about Sin

Sin is dead to me this patch. Lame ass spec rn

[fair stump]

Imma try DS on m+

[storm vault]

For Dawnbreaker its absolutely the go to imo

[hazy breach]

[fair stump]

Why?

[hazy breach]

Didnt you just say it feels bad on low target counts

[round latch]

there are different classics,cataclysm in another server.Classic Era is another.U need to download class Era.On your blizzard app launcher if u press on game tab search from there the classic era

[pliant topaz]

I think its a dance thing. it just has less cdr so feels worse i guess

[jaunty heath]

i did download calss era

[fair stump]

Ew, M+ plays dark brew and shuriken storm

Nevermind

[round latch]

then go on curseforge and change the game on the tab to simple classic.Cata classic is another game/server/folder

[storm vault]

Yes. Idk how you play dawnbreaker but I always have 5+ mobs less theres a miniboss

[round latch]

season of discovery and classic era are the same folder

[kind bluff]

Do we use sec tec only with symbols?

[storm vault]

I didnt use brew. Wanted the second symbols charge

[kind bluff]

Or do we ever just throw it to let symbols line up with burst windows?

[jaunty heath]

it doesnt say it

[round latch]

restart the curseforge app

[hazy breach]

Well ye? But its still like the lowest pull count dungeon

[round latch]

and it does say it

there is no way it doesnt

[fair stump]

I feel like GB is a good key for DS

But on the other hand I don't want to play nado...

[round latch]

everything is ok for DS Sub fam

[strange chasm]

Queen DS is bad

Or atleast dfeels giga bad rtn

[storm vault]

🤷🏾‍♂️ dunno what to tell ya

[round latch]

idk for raids though

[fair stump]

You're not convincing me

[round latch]

ive got cheesecake oreo in the fridge

[fair stump]

Damn that's a pretty good argument

[round latch]

😂

food works everytime

[storm vault]

I still find it crazy how so few people play Sub in M+ tho

[round latch]

yup its quite strong

and i love it tbh

[storm vault]

Feels more flexible than Sin ever since Sin lost dance

[hazy breach]

Sin just does more damage

[storm vault]

Does it tho

[hazy breach]

Yes

[storm vault]

Or is it just easier to spit out that damage

[hazy breach]

In dawn, mists and city its close, but its still assa favoured

[hazy breach]

I'd argue its harder

[round latch]

definitely takes more time to ramp those bleeds

sub blasts

thats why i like sub more

[storm vault]

Bleed ramp is just the playstyle. Doesnt mean its harder 🤷🏾‍♂️

I still wish the worst upon anyone that wanted Dance gone tho

[round latch]

its part of the theme,u actually need more time to apply them and actually ramp

sub is

more visceral

[tribal blade]

the ramp is no issue in higher keys

for most pulls

for lower keys you can just run sin and play sudden demise 😉

[storm vault]

Sub ramps then too actually. Not as much but still some time spent spreading bleeds

[tribal blade]

you don't need to spread that much

[storm vault]

... yea...

[tribal blade]

if you know a pack is gonna melt

you can spread basically no ruptures

[storm vault]

Sometimes its painful talking to yall

[hazy breach]

Likewise

[tribal blade]

i'm not trying to argue with you at all

i'm just adding a caveat

this is normal in here

[storm vault]

You had literally repeated what I said

[robust light]

pressing black powder ??

or no

: )

[hazy breach]

If deathstalker yes

[robust light]

how many tagets

targets

[hazy breach]

2

[robust light]

also ds is just better now ?

[hazy breach]

Same as before

[robust light]

wtf

[storm vault]

Anyway soon enough eleem will be behind me with his sub score so we see what discussion looks like then

[round latch]

[robust light]

rip trickster

was fun

i go new build now

[hazy breach]

What

[robust light]

thx ogs

[tribal blade]

what is happening

what's with the hostility

[uneven scarab]

[swift tinsel]

Did a full hc reclear as DS and I'm never touching it again

[robust light]

how much dmg could it be reallyyyyy

[round latch]

so u establish the correct point by compering ur log points or something

[storm vault]

Your score is 315X. Im not so far behind

[hazy breach]

What

[round latch]

now thats difficult to chat

[hazy breach]

My score is 3288

[storm vault]

Yea. Easier with data

[storm vault]

Your Sub score is 315X...

[robust light]

mots vacation him

[round latch]

data interpretation is another thing though

so im searching for a good strawman meme

[robust light]

%

[tribal blade]

eleem is playing both sub and sin my guy

[storm vault]

But im talking specifically Sub

This is what I mean when I say yall are difficult to talk to

[robust light]

u mfs it says to go trick in M+

[tribal blade]

i give up

[hazy breach]

Yeah but why

[lilac stag]

@tribal blade WA Boss PAIN.

[tribal blade]

😦

bro the WA boss is so bad

[storm vault]

Cause I only play Sub. Why would I care about the Sin data

[idle aurora]

Heroic transmitter is basically still going to be bis over everything just due its cycling right

[swift tinsel]

My champ track transmitter sims better than any of my hero track trinkets I'm pretty sure

[round latch]

transmitter most like will be bis even for normal,but u should follow ur sims

[thick temple]

So for M+ AoE, am I using BP almost exclusvely unless Im doing some ST boss?

(DS)

[lilac stag]

a couple 5% pulls. people just making bad mistakes. tricky felt like much better boss pump. ds really depended on how fast the adds died.

[swift tinsel]

Pretty much, whenever you aren't using evisc for DN or sectech

[idle aurora]

I skipped a mythic skardyns for a long term play cause I have a heroic one and I am coping with my decision lol

[thick temple]

thank you for DS help, deathstalker denier

lol

[fair stump]

why

[swift tinsel]

I don't respect it lol

[storm vault]

Skardyns never simmed well for me so it might not be a bad thing

[fair stump]

I have a mythic skardyns but I don't use it lol

[storm vault]

I use spyglass now

Higher uptime that skardy anyway

[idle aurora]

Well that’s why I took crit heavy vers cape it didn’t dim too far off skardyns :0 1% difference

[lilac stag]

shocking. 2 min trinket not great on 90 sec spec

[hazy breach]

If there is ever more than 1 target you BP

[round latch]

its not that great for sub,trasmitter bis

[idle aurora]

Ok I feel better lol

[thick temple]

dw I skipped out on mythic sureki insignia in my vault bc ill never touch assa

[tribal blade]

you guys got it dude!

[idle aurora]

I am hard down on learning sub

[storm vault]

I wish I could get a mythic transmitter

Nut immediately if I saw it in my bags

[lilac stag]

cya next tuesday. lol

one and done this week

[idle aurora]

Also how many people craft two 1hers?

[lilac stag]

i'm drained

[lilac stag]

zero

[thick temple]

So just run same rotation, just BP more ig unless I see DN activated

[hazy breach]

Yes

[storm vault]

I cant tell if DS is buggy or if Im.just doing something wrong, but ill spent 5cp sometimes on a marked target and a mark doesn't get consumed

[hazy breach]

All the differences are mentioned in the pins

[lilac stag]

also fuck . fucking blizzard

[round latch]

Be blessed with 🍆 energy

[thick temple]

wait do we know if DS is better than trickster in m+ yet

i hate ADJUSTING my GAMEPLAY

(semi frequently)

[fair stump]

I wonder if MDI would have been different if sub was buffed

[lilac stag]

if you dont want to hate your life just play trick

[hazy breach]

Almost certainly not

[thick temple]

I def will use it for kyveza/sikran tho

[hazy breach]

Assa still has noticeably higher funnel than sub does, which is what MDI is mostly about

Killing the bosses asap while doing decent aoe

[robust light]

i dont wanna press the new buttons...

[storm vault]

Forgetting to use evasion for magic damage with DS is hard to get over

[round latch]

my crystal magic ball is blurry but im starting to see another sub buff somewhere,need to wait till it gets less foggy

[tribal blade]

T R U E

[round latch]

also where is the racoon man,i need to flex on him the deathstalker buff i called a month ago

[idle aurora]

So I’m still ok playing trickster as I am learning class then

Hell eff it I enjoy too much to care about tiny dps differences anyways

[storm vault]

Yes but also the difference is at a point where you can consider comp differences

[topaz raptor]

do you ever tornado in flag

[fair stump]

No

[hazy breach]

You dont want to waste shadowcraft procs with it, so you typically dont want to use it during blades

[tribal blade]

sub right now is like an electric car

and nado is like a part from a gas engine still in

[tribal blade]

pulling adds on top of bosses as sin

chef's kiss

[hazy breach]

Time to starfall and earthquake

[jaunty heath]

How much does the ilvl increases each szn

[tribal blade]

REEE

real question is do you get spatter up to have ultimate pad damage

i think 90% of my deaths on court tonight

have been other people fucking up

and killing me

no meme, on god

[tulip token]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[topaz raptor]

WAIT

deathstalker is so hard to play

in keys

[tribal blade]

i don't find it hard, it's more so just cumbersome

[sullen hare]

cumbersome vs. natural

[pliant arrow]

DS feels so ass both in m+ and ST idk, maybe its just my brain being used to the flow of trickster

[sullen hare]

time to relearn subtlety midway through a patch 😎

[wide magnet]

is there a target count for trickster where you black powder

[viral phoenix]

for deathstalker aoe is the purpose of shadow striking w/ premed to efficiently gain a DM stack?

always strike first builder? does that fall off at high target counts or not matter

[tribal blade]

that and you gain more from premed if you use strike too

[viral phoenix]

wdym? like a strike to full combo points is more combo points than a storm thats already getting max combo points?

[tribal blade]

yeah exactly

[strange chasm]

The only thing that feels giga ass so far is the Cdr and using transmitter lmao

[tribal blade]

ok answer is obvious

need more BP buffs

[upper haven]

How is this spec in m+ rn compared to assassination and outlaw?

[tame terrace]

seems fine, just not gonna be as strong as sin at much higher keys

when u do the big pulls

just did a key as ds, was aight

no idea if i was doing shit right tho lol

[edgy zenith]

gotta get those BP numbers up

[tame terrace]

kinda feels like df sub in a way

since u actually do normal aoe rotation shit

the one thing im not doing is runnign shuriken tornado bc i hate that button

[half comet]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[viral phoenix]

so for DN you use tornado after shadow blades, shadow blades is like 1:15 left on cooldown, by the time shuriken tornado is back up shadow blades is under 30 sec cd left, so you basically treat shuriken tornado as a 1:30 cd after cooldowns?

[vale pine]

you essentially want to either

use it before or after cooldowns

[viral phoenix]

when would u use it before

following these instructions

[vale pine]

e.g. in a opener, its perfectly fine to use it before dance

[viral phoenix]

oh like using it to accelerate rupture spread?

[vale pine]

yes

[unkempt trench]

myth track helm worth taking from vault if im just guna catalyst it?

[viral phoenix]

i guess practically its used for rupture spread either way right? 😆

[unkempt trench]

or should i wait for chest/gloves

[vale pine]

you can be dynamically with tornado

either use it to spread rupture

or to get more finisher during lingering

[tribal blade]

depends on what your options are

[unkempt trench]

hero Mad Queen, myth Dead-eye Spyglass, myth Helm

[tribal blade]

basically myth track items are very difficult to pass up

if you don't have a myth track helm yet i would say yes, it's worth getting

[unkempt trench]

but myth helm is not recommended for sub right

[tribal blade]

it's not no

[unkempt trench]

ud still take helm over trinket?

[tribal blade]

what helm is in your vault

[short radish]

don't worry we'll have to relearn it again in the 0.7 patch

[unkempt trench]

shit helm, it has haste and mast

i was going to catalyst it

[tribal blade]

ah gotcha

you can sim both those items

using top gear

that helm might have shit stats, but the sheer ilvl might win out

[alpine wraith]

ideally you craft your helmet

so i would get a socket if you can still get it

if you ahve access to getting gilded of course if not it is fine to get it

[unkempt trench]

that helm eventually get swapped out though for set chest, gloves, legs, shoulders

[alpine wraith]

nah you dont swap the crafted helmet

look at this beatu

[unkempt trench]

is myth Dead-eye spyglass not good?

[alpine wraith]

not super bad but also not super good

crit is one of the weaker stats for sub

[unkempt trench]

heroic Mad Queen is better?

[alpine wraith]

yea

[tribal blade]

good point

[alpine wraith]

well ideally you get mythic queen or contract but ehehe

now that deathstalker is back on the menu queen is quite strong again

zzzzzz

[tribal blade]

i'm just using this helm 😉

[topaz raptor]

jundies put up a pretty good log on broodtwister

fating purple clouds

farting

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Wg8jH1kX2w3Bz7TY#fight=20&type=damage-done

[alpine wraith]

so in the end they didnt buff singular focus right?

[topaz raptor]

it wouldn't really make sense

i guess they did say "all plague damage"

[alpine wraith]

damn he did 100m less boss dmg than the assa rip

[topaz raptor]

still pretty fucking good boss damage

it's not hard griefing to spam black powder the whole fight

[alpine wraith]

also it seems their parasites and spiders died quite fast

so pad was not plentiful

he also made some slip ups and didnt manage to get double dances on all pods

but yea new DS can overtake trickster on that fight now

[vale pine]

nicu

[brisk onyx]

Does coup cause 0 damage when we haven’t SnD buff ?

[vale pine]

coup should never do 0 damage

[haughty mural]

[topaz raptor]

deathstalker is like a whole order of magnitude more complicated

as trickster i would just walk up and spam eviscerate???

now i have to press buttons in the right order

[brisk onyx]

Sometimes when I don't have the SND buff ,then cast coup will have the SND sound effect but no buff and do 0 damage at the same time.(I'll check again after get off work)

[ashen crest]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vestal escarp]

sin belt or socket

[alpine wraith]

man i cant get used to fucken clear the witness doing almost 500k crits

[vale pine]

coup does not apply snd iirc, might be what you mean

[vestal escarp]

btw this looks like normal singular focus dmg, so i guess the only thing we wanted buffed dodged the plague buffs

[alpine wraith]

yea singular focus didnt get buffed unluck

[vestal escarp]

unbelivable but belivable

[alpine wraith]

btw going into cds with 1 mark is very strong

you sec tech and DN evis krangle juicer

what takes time to get used to is you cant really quad dance on opener

[sick jackal]

should get contract or crystal for m+?

[vestal escarp]

contract hero?

[sick jackal]

both myth

[vestal escarp]

if both myth sim, crystal has nice uptime

[wild hornet]

I see, then what if it's not a ST occurrence

[vestal escarp]

but contract just deals good dmg in st

[sick jackal]

how do i sim for dung

[sick jackal]

i have a mandate

hero one

[vestal escarp]

dungeonslice but i would take crystal if my focus was keys gear

[sick jackal]

the thing is i play ds in keys with brew

[vestal escarp]

recommended is rotten

[sick jackal]

yeah but shadow damage feels more sub imo

• contact is purple

[vestal escarp]

good call

but switf death + 2 perception + rotten feels smoother

[sick jackal]

atm for dslice my spyglass is simming more than both

[keen dome]

Urgh. Game, why the hard choice now

Heroic transmitter (I have norm) or Myth chest.. Probably Myth chest.

[short radish]

i'd take heroic transmitter

tbh even mandate

[keen dome]

I went with myth chest 'cos both of those I can, realistically, have drop.

I don't do any content that would give me myth chest

[short radish]

arguement is that you'll see a myth chest sooner again

than a transmitter

[keen dome]

Not a bad point but I have made my bed and it is a 639 tier peice

[short radish]

either way all probably same valuepoint

[keen dome]

Ye

[short radish]

this tier i've sorta stopped caring about shitty vaults

and stats

its such a whateverburger

[keen dome]

Ye. Just so much randomness.

629 🙏

[wild hornet]

I think transmitter on hc isnt that hard to get

Especially since theres like 2/3 specs that need it

[keen dome]

It has to actually drop, though

I've killed Princess every week on Heroic since the raid came out and seen it actually drop a total of one time. I got my normal one from the timewalking box, haha

But the difference between norm / hero isn't too huge whereas the diff from a hero and myth chest is pretty big

oh god ulduar timewalking

[sick jackal]

same but thhe vault has blessed me with good items

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

good items

[delicate steeple]

i wish theyd change shurken tornado in someway really dont like that ability

[haughty mural]

dont use it

if you dont want

[delicate steeple]

i might try first dance in another key later

[short radish]

fuck DS

tried it for 2 pulls on queen and feels so awkward

when to press and hold now

[alpine wraith]

you always play first dance tho in m+

[delicate steeple]

oh i was going with w.e was in wowhead tbh

i havent played sub since week one

[haughty mural]

swap wm to tfd

swap tornado to vt

and you might be happier

[delicate steeple]

whats vt

[slate basin]

honestly deathstalker in keys is pretty fun

it doesn't feel as bad as I thought

seems on par with trickster. even does alright on the 2 target boss in cot

I think dropping the rotten for one point in finality is the move too

[brisk onyx]

@vale pine

its what i say

no SnD and do 0 damage

only some "hit" sounds

[keen dome]

veiltouched. Node next to tornado

[sick jackal]

aight so deathstalker sucks

going to trickster

[sonic ermine]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue

[vale pine]

weird

[brisk onyx]

it happened when i dont have SnD buff(some m+ situation

my understanding is that the damage was aborted because SnD could not be apply.

[barren tree]

is DS better for m+ now? if so how much better? I really enjoy trickster playstyle

[west arch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fair anchor]

wait have supercharger always worked with DN ?

I sent 5cp evis with supercharger up, it consumed DN

[uneven fern]

yea

[fair anchor]

cool

[uneven fern]

it was bugged for like a week when 11.0.5 came out

then they fixed it

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-fist-bump-secret-hand-shake-gif-14897673

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sick jackal]

if ds had like combo point spending and cdr on it like trickster it would feel good

[short radish]

i didnt realise how important 10% cdr on sectech is

[vestal escarp]

and the interaction of supercharger + coup

[haughty mural]

it was already when dust still existed tbh

[alpine wraith]

yea you need to get used to maybe delay flag cds a bit

depending on dance cdr

might try and make some approximations to help people

so they dont have dance at 10s cd after using first onme

also enterning with 1 mark might be quite good too

[haughty mural]

to dn evis right after sectech ?

[alpine wraith]

yes

[tulip gorge]

you guys have a good DS m+ build?

[short radish]

[vestal escarp]

the point is that if at 1:30 for example your second dance has about 40s left of cds

you're screwed and have to daly cds a while

[short radish]

i feel like i need a spreadsheet again

for DS

playing queen

[haughty mural]

back to spreadsheet gaming boys

[vestal escarp]

cooldowns are set

so maybe it's an exaggeration

i feel like we have a problem and cant send em on CD tho

[uneven fern]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[tulip gorge]

Kush is pumping with his build

[short radish]

just a little bit, but i tried for 2 pulls

and it feels all sorts of wack on queen

feels like i lose 1 dance between pull and p2

[alpine wraith]

yes you have around 1 or 2 dances less

[uneven fern]

[alpine wraith]

for ex as trickster after the first 2 you can do another then the one with cb

but with deathstalker you do 2

then until CB nothing

it does let you plan more tho getting rupture up and to 1 mark

and well in the end you do more ST anyway

but it can get annoying if you got used to trickster