subtlety

[hazy breach]

More than 1 what

[lilac stag]

15 completed

[vestal escarp]

Yeah we're 20 guys for 15s and above

[hazy breach]

What

[vestal escarp]

I have a 15 dawn

[lilac stag]

just laughing at rio not seeing enough data on 15s to actually register it

[vestal escarp]

Eleem has a bunch

[hazy breach]

Ive done 5 as sub

Or well, 4+necrotic wake which it registers as sub because i did the last half of it as sub

[oak solstice]

I saw this doc before from izen

And i saw sub is one of the lowest in dmg when it comes to 5 targets

But i take it its better for 3 since u said its really good in cot

[hazy breach]

Izen is just a clown that has no idea what hes talking about

For any class

[sly shore]

incredible sims

[hazy breach]

I would take anything he says about anything with a bucket of salt

Especially since he has been banned from most class discords due to excessive missinformation

[wind canopy]

Also a content thief

In general if people are making spreadsheets like that, probably should be suspicious in their intent

[strange chasm]

@hazy breach You think start sub for mists and zone back out to ass

or just stay sub?

[alpine wraith]

all in sub

[lilac stag]

TFD so good there

[hazy breach]

Tbh i dont think it matters

Both are fine

[dapper stirrup]

Will sub now be the stronger specc for mythic raiding?

[alpine wraith]

depends

it will do more st if you go deathstalker

but at what cost

[vestal escarp]

Plan every global to let sectec and dn fall into supercharger

Lmao

[vagrant fulcrum]

at this point

can't they just let darkest night affect BP?

3x BP > Evisc is not a good gameplay loop

[void hound]

at the cost of smooth gameplay
a sacrifice every sub player is familiar with

[pliant topaz]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[gleaming plank]

Is the spreadsheet accurate to reflect the incoming buff or is sub gonna pass sin and law for M+?

[pliant topaz]

dslice sims arent there to compare specs performances in m+

and the buffs are not in the sheet yet

[gleaming plank]

Kk^

[oak solstice]

Why is that?

I mean how am i supposed to compare the best possible performance of a specific class on average if not sims?

[spark tusk]

A simulation is, by definition, simulating a specific context. Because every spec is different, its output and value will be influenced by the context. We want to judge everyone on an even playing field but to do so we are making the playing field even, even though different specs may thrive or struggle in that field we're using to judge on.

Typically, comparing a simple Single Target sim is ok, however even that can vary because of fight timers and cd timing alignment with the sim duration.

But especially in an M+ comparison environment

Simulations have to become more and more convoluted/complex to accurately measure performance of each spec's strength/weaknesses

Simulations, as a tool

Their primary use case

[oak solstice]

I mean whats the difference between a single stationary target and 5 stationary targets

[spark tusk]

is to compare talents and gear within a single spec

because then the playing field is always even for the spec

[oak solstice]

Hmm i mean i get what u meam but maybe its bcs i play an easy ish class i don't get it. Bcs i don't see how there would be a problem

I mean ok don't get me wrong lets say u look at a 5 minute fight thats almost perfect timing for a frost dk. But it might not be for smth like a elly sham is that what u mean or?

[spark tusk]

In essence, yes

If you compare every class against a 5 minute timer, classes with strong 3 minute cds will look worse because their majors haven't come up for a third go

for example

but a 1.5 min class (Sub) may look much stronger than those 3 min cd classes because sub will have just finished their 4th set

Just as an example

Then you can expand that comparison to all sorts of different sim scenarios, classes with resource funnels on multiple targets, dungeon slice timings, etc

[pliant topaz]

theres also a disparity between sim optimizations.

you look at outlaw sims, its optimized so every single 0.2% insane for a human to do optimization is included

[spark tusk]

A sim's major strength is: "Is this item better than this other item"

[oak solstice]

Yeah that i get for sure but thats why in that specific file he has ( I'm not defending him or anything its just smth i thought. A 40 second pull is smth ud usually get in an m+ scenario for a high key why would that not be a good way to measure the performance in a burst scenario

[oak solstice]

That I'm aware of for sure yeah i heard ww sims 5% more bcs of some bugs that are not accounted for

[pliant topaz]

you look at sub/sin, some are included, some really insane stuff that a human wouldnt be able to do isnt.

[pliant topaz]

idk about htat, simulationcraft people generally do include in game bugs in sims

specially if theyre long lasting

or for example, dh always oversims because the sim just has higher uptime than a human can because when u dash/backflip, the sim doesnt lose uptime and continues to hit targets

or for example, with casters, movement is a very real thing so not realistic to match their sim in a hectic fight.

or generally maybe rogue sims are on average higher quality than class X sims. not every TC puts the same amount of effort in their class/spec sims

[oak solstice]

Ive been told this by one of the guys that mamage sims on the ww srv I'm quite sure

[spark tusk]

Depends on which bugs Armin is saying

Bugs that are just now introduced in a recent patch aren't usually in sims if they are recently discovered because A) it takes time to implement them and B) it is reasonable to assume (and hope/cope) that they will be fixed shortly after being discovered and therefore not worth the effort of implementing

If a bug lingers and isn't fixed for years (as is the case for several bugs for us), then it becomes reasonable that they are included

also bugs being included pushes in both directions

Bugs can increase or decrease damage

[pliant topaz]

thats why i asid long lasting bugs

[spark tusk]

yeh

[oak solstice]

Yeah for sure but how else wpuld i be able to compare classes performances in multiple scenarios if not a sim?

[pliant topaz]

they should be mostly in sims. unless the TC's dont know what the bug exactly is. or how to reproduce it.

[pliant topaz]

single target sims are "fine" without data, but the more data you have, (wclogs) the more you can remove reliance on sims

[oak solstice]

Like sure go to warcraft logs. It doesnt tell u much about keys and on top of that some classes have insane variance in rng . Frost dk enhance a great example

• u look at logs for feral druid. There are 2 guys playing feral

Thats why i prefer looking at sims to get my data

[pliant topaz]

if you look at 200 runs of enhancement and say the mean over 200 runs is X. then thats the distribution. u got your answer

[spark tusk]

Also worth pointing out that sims aren't "data" 🤓

logs are data because they're actually what happened

sims are, well, simulations

[lilac stag]

Remember when flurry was 40%.

[oak solstice]

U think there are 200 people that play enhance at 100% accuracy ? + getting enough logs from them to be able to tell how much the average is? Especially for a low play rate class especially?

I mean look at the 99% percentile for frost dk. Looking at that i can think to myself damn frost dk is insane single target. Which we are so far from being. We might be the absolute worse

[pliant topaz]

you think youre playing enhance at 100% accuracy? do you think the guy doing a 17 isnt at 100% accuracy cuz he sucks? or rather, tahts what realistically enhance can do in this scenario. given the random noise introduced to the player by the game enviornement, heres the distribution you can expect

[oak solstice]

I get what u mean but u should strive to be there

[spark tusk]

Let's not bring should into this.

You should be here to have fun.

[lilac stag]

Some specs also aren’t nearly as impacted by imperfect rotational choices.

[pliant topaz]

do you though? lets say im doing rank 1 world key. how often am i missing the key because i couldnt optimize 0.5% more damage?

[oak solstice]

Anyway without sims i cant tell what a sub rogue would do in a 40 second pull on 8 targets bcs there is absolutely 0 yt videos showing thqt

[oak solstice]

Tbh i care more about seeing more dmg than optimizing anything else thats the mini game i like

[lilac stag]

40 sec lust pull sims inc (again)

[pliant topaz]

optimizing is the process of seeing more damage though...

youre optimizing your damage...

to increase it

[oak solstice]

Give me a better way of being able to grasp sub power level when there is no one that streams keys at a decently high lvl that i can watch

[hazy breach]

Were not offering you a better alternative

Were saying sims arent good for it

[pliant topaz]

try it out yourself, or ask peoples opinions here who have played sub at high levels on hmm, how does sub feel on X pull in this dungeon.

what does sub do compared to sin.outlaw.enhance

what are the strenghts and weaknesses

[lilac stag]

Without being rude, you’re giving try hard DH flashbacks. Nothing personal.

[alpine wraith]

literally you are talking with 2 or 3 of the few people that do 15+ as sub

and saying HA I CANT WATCH PEOPLE DO THEM

[oak solstice]

Yeah but i just responded to ur comment about people not missing keys bcs of 0.5% damage which is 100% true they are not

[alpine wraith]

most of the time you deplete because someone gets snacked

[lilac stag]

but literally 2/3 of the people doing 15s are in the channel

[oak solstice]

Sorry I don't know what u mean and i didnt mean to sound rude either

I was just asking for a better way to graps the power of the spec that no one plays if not sims

[pliant topaz]

thats okay, theres no fighting here. unfortunately sims (specially dslice sims) are not a good metric to accurately represent a specs power

[hazy breach]

Sub bursts hard, does nothing inbetween

[oak solstice]

Haha i had no clue exactly my point

[pliant topaz]

there are things you can take away from sims though

[lilac stag]

This spec is played by people who are dedicated (to a fault at times) to min max the fuck out of a spec ignored by blizzard.

[alpine wraith]

sub can be good in some dungeons

[pliant topaz]

for example: you can look at specs prio damage given a sustained 8 target scenario

[alpine wraith]

problem is good is not enough for many

[oak solstice]

Oh yeah thats why i wanted to ask about likr 5 targets or 8 or I don't know 10+

To grasps the dmg profile and how the class plays

[pliant topaz]

sure, sub has 2 differnent hero talents trickster and deathstalker. Trickster essentially has blade flurry and strong cleave, but doesnt really gain that much more "prio" from having other targets to hit. maybe 5%

deathstalker on the other hand (specially after the new buffs ) does a fuck ton more prio damgae whie doing full aoe rotation.

i think both deathstalker sin/sub are some of the highest funnel in the game.

[hazy breach]

Hopefully i can have a vod of a high key whenever i time one, ive just been mostly trying to time "sin keys" this week

[pliant topaz]

comparing sin / sub : sin has better prio, better sustained aoe, less reliance on cds, less reliance on pulls. Sub is a lot more cd dependant, more reliant on knowing the route etc, does less sustained aoe, but does a lot more single target

[vale pine]

well single target des barely matter if you can pull with boss

[hazy breach]

Sub still has some of the highest prio in the game fwiw, its higher than frost

[pliant topaz]

you cant realistically in many dungeons

[hazy breach]

Its just not better than assa

[vale pine]

fair

[pliant topaz]

deathstalker sub might be 2nd highest i think

specially after buffs

[vale pine]

sub still trades off aoe for it tho

[hazy breach]

Ye deathstalker sub has pretty close to assa prio on really big pulls

[vale pine]

hmm wonder how big the trade off is even with the bp buffs

[pliant topaz]

trade off for what

[vale pine]

hero talents make the bp evi trade off a lot less relevant

so you are correct

[hazy breach]

Ye its barely even more prio to evis

[pliant topaz]

its not

unless its darkest night

i did a lil math int he other channel if u guyds wanna check it out

[hazy breach]

Depends on exact target counts and fw, but ye

Ye i saw

[pliant topaz]

but yeah BP being almost 80% of evis's damage is not fun

[oak solstice]

Sub sounds a lot like a frost dk which is the only thing I'm familiar with

[pliant topaz]

eh kinda i guess. a bit more extreme version of frost in terms of cd reliance

like you quite litearlly do less than a healer dps outside of cds

but also thats trickster. deathstalker aoe is quite a bit different

[hazy breach]

Ye frost does way more than sub does outside cds

[thick temple]

how would I go about submitting logs for review? I see threads for it sometimes

[oak solstice]

Outside of pillar / breath window ur dmg on frost dk is below tank dmg if u don't have very high crit

[wind canopy]

type !log

[hazy breach]

We know

[thick temple]

!log

oSHIT

[oak solstice]

That sounds insane ngl

Hahaha

[uneven scarab]

Sub does less than healer

outside cd’s

[oak solstice]

Honestly that sounds like fun

[pliant topaz]

would u say outside of cds you do more than 200k dps with full raid buffs and bis gear?

[oak solstice]

If the cds are strong enough to make up for it

[uneven scarab]

They are

[pliant topaz]

subs low is around 200-250k wtih full raid buffs and bis gear.
and its highest peak is around 4.3M

[oak solstice]

Was thinking more like aoe but peolly not that low

[pliant topaz]

going from 250k to 4.3 M is the difference in having all cds and not having cds

[oak solstice]

What about in a big pull in Sv or nw?

[pliant topaz]

same ratio. if you dont have cds (im including dance and sod).

your only real damage is rupture

so its basically ruptures ticking. u dont have energy to do anything else really

[oak solstice]

Ok that def doesnt sound fun

[lilac stag]

Our aoe outside of cds feels like a 4 second gcd between casts

[oak solstice]

At least lemme click a backstab for 3 dmg

[pliant topaz]

okay looking at frost dk sims to give u a better idea of the difference. frost lowest moment is about 750k / compare to subs 250k

[uneven scarab]

Well you will be backstabbing also

[uneven scarab]

https://tenor.com/view/quite-big-thats-gif-18363059

[pliant topaz]

and your highest is about 3M compared to subs 4.2M

[lilac stag]

That’s what she said

[uneven scarab]

[pliant topaz]

its a unique playstyle. sub 10.2 rework nerfed energy costs across the board by almost 50%. as a result, when you are not in cds (specifically symbols of death), as others said youre very starved on energy

[oak solstice]

Hmm really? What i can tell u is that in the 20 seconds i didnt have pillar on the giant bos in sob ( obs no raid buffs i was dealing 250k

[oak solstice]

Sounda about right my max peek with bl and insane rng is 4.6 mil in an opener

[pliant topaz]

sim outputs are the median result

[oak solstice]

Ye

[oak solstice]

Yeah ofc ik

I was just saying thats the highest ive been able to output with a lot of luck

[pliant topaz]

yeah its expected. sub probably has the lowest low in all dps specs

and the highest high

to get an idea of downtime for the spec

youre kinda afk a lot

compared to frost dk

[oak solstice]

Sounds amazing but ive yet to hear an answer how much dmg would it deal in a 12+ mob pull

[pliant topaz]

both in st/ aoe spec doesnt have energy to get gcds out often, outside of sod

[pliant topaz]

idk, lets take a more realistic scenario instead. 15 SV first pull (hallway + pack on left lets say).

whats your peak dps?

ive tried it as trickster and deathstalker. pretty sure i peaked 13-14M as deathstalker

trickster closer to 8.5M - 9M probably (its target capped so yea...) (you can bp if u want more just pad dps to remove the target cap part at 12+ targets).

[uneven scarab]

Flurry is hard capped at 8 right?

[pliant topaz]

its 7 other targets so yea

[oak solstice]

No aug around 14m id have to check the recording of my sv15 i just did when i get home

[alpine wraith]

sub also depends on pack dying fast

after our 30 secs of glory

come the pain times

or well actually mroe like almost 50 secs if you kinda use everything

as you still can kinda get 2 dances in a row after cds if you play tfd

[pliant topaz]

@tepid trellis where u at mr racoon

[alpine wraith]

stealthi hit a time freeze

[oak solstice]

Okay thats nice actually

I might just give it a real try

[pliant topaz]

its a fun spec, hope youll enjoy it.

[tepid trellis]

5 ilvl lower

thats where

[alpine wraith]

one funny thing you can do as deathstalker apart from all the pain is

[spark tusk]

based

[pliant topaz]

skrill issue

[alpine wraith]

you can snipe marks with strike on low hp mobs

and get a DN

[oak solstice]

But can u guys recommend any stream yt channel that posts/ plays keys above 14

[alpine wraith]

on bosses that have short lived adds

[pliant topaz]

alright im done testing stuff for DS. tmie to go play a real game again. surely we'll hit gm surely

[tepid trellis]

WR check

[pliant topaz]

thats insanely fucked up. mods? im being cyberbullied HALP

[alpine wraith]

we are close to killing court

praydge on monday

[spark tusk]

My guild too

(Not me tho, I'm just a cheerleader)

[lilac stag]

Lost Ark

[lilac stag]

They don’t exist. On occasion Kush plays sub, but replicating shadows bugs triggers him too much usually.

[pastel geyser]

i miss early dragonflight sub

[oak solstice]

Whats the bug?

[spark tusk]

what's a fdk resource

runes?

Imagine you have an ability that costs max runes, and you generate runes by using another ability

then you have another passive that refunds you max runes so you can use the ability that costs them back to back

but if you take a certain talent, that refund happens anywhere from 0.2 to 1.0 seconds after you use the ability

so very often, you'll be sitting there not sure if you're about to get a refund or not

and either waste a gcd just sitting there like an idiot

or waste full resources by generating only to then get a refund while already at max resources

it's really, really irritating

[rocky wolf]

same, my vaults have been turbo garbage after like week 3 lol

[wind canopy]

flat damage profiles…

[spark tusk]

I liked season 2 dragonflight sub

But I also like now (excluding RS bug, and assuming trickster)

[hazy breach]

@oak solstice https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2309352326
Didnt time but it wasnt due to DPS.

[pastel geyser]

it was fun tho

[hazy breach]

I also fucked up some rotationally, but heres some idea how it does

[wind canopy]

Was it though? Just mindlessly hitting your CDs?

You were basically just outlaw but shadow damage

[thorn ibex]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[oak solstice]

tyty

[oak solstice]

yeah that sounds fked

[light imp]

goddamn just ran heroic anub and had solid 50ilvl parses across every boss.... am i just trash?

[vestal escarp]

Anub arak?

[light imp]

nerub, lol. guess that answers my own question

[vestal escarp]

[inner glen]

When or do we even use blackpoweder in AOE? für m+.

[alpine wraith]

as deathstalker on 2t+ as trickster still left to see after the buff to bp

[light imp]

isn't it 12+ currently?

[alpine wraith]

a bit less depends on targets with FW

problem is you cant really ask the p`layer to count motherfucken FW

on a pull

[vale pine]

yes

[half comet]

where can u see these?

[pliant topaz]

when you sim somethign -> press the html report on right / bottom

[hybrid prism]

Dark brew should be higher up in the tree so you can take it. It would at least help a little bit with going DS.

Dark brew needs to be higher up in the tree so you can take it and rotten / symbols. It would feel so good with DS

I totally forgot about that! I used to make fun of my mage friend all the time lmao.

[pliant topaz]

how does db feel good?

its litearlly passive dmagae that u dont interact with or notice

[hybrid prism]

Feels good in the class fantasy aspect and plus to use it you don't take rotten / symbols so you have less cooldowns to press. It's a much easier playstyle and the class fantasy of me doing shadow damage more often is cool AF. That's all I meant. I just wish it was higher up in the tree because you HAVE to take rotten / symbols to do the damage we should do.

[alpine wraith]

i wish TFD was a capstone and you could build to it

like warrior demolish

like every 40 finishers you get a stack of first dance to use

[pliant topaz]

u dont actually have to take those. u can play the standard build youre saying without extra sod charges and db and its 4% worse

it also feels significantly less fun

because turns out more sods -> more super chargers -> more cdr -> more sht is more fun

than having 10% extra damage

[hybrid prism]

It just feels "cooler" to me. I didn't say it was more fun

[pliant topaz]

sure

[hybrid prism]

I'm strictly talking about the fantasy of it.

[pliant topaz]

i was responding to your comment about having to take the talents

its slightly weaker. but also significantly less itneresting

[alpine wraith]

just thing about what nature and bleeds do we have

poisons and rupture

if it made some more phys dmg shadow maybe

if it was 20% phys to shadow conversion or something

[pliant topaz]

i just think so many of those talents are so boring and so weak that I just really dont want to ever have to pick them

PV/DD/lingering/finality/db

[vale pine]

inev

[pliant topaz]

db is strong but its just not that interesting

[vale pine]

weaponmaster

[pliant topaz]

i meant more so in capstone area not all of subs talents

[vale pine]

silent storm

😛

[hazy breach]

I think silent storm is fine in theory

[vale pine]

oh ye, final gate has some stinkers too

[hybrid prism]

Honestly just to feel cooler I might do it if it's not that much worse. I don't push CE anymore, I'm just an aotc pug nowadays so why not.

[vale pine]

think it becomes redundant once you run rotten

[pliant topaz]

improved storm and bs shouldnt be talents. instead u should get silent storm/etc in their place

[hazy breach]

Ye ofc

[pliant topaz]

its really not. only like 4%

[hazy breach]

Wm / silent storm instead

[pliant topaz]

yea something like that

but then theywould have to make new talents

and we already have duplicated talents in the tree from how litte thoughts been put into it

sonthats a nono

[hazy breach]

We just need like 4 more tfd talents

[hybrid prism]

TY for the info, just goin to do that then!

[pliant topaz]

more like 4 more superchargers

[alpine wraith]

i need a talent to charge tfd again

imagine a talent having sinergy with other talents

what a dream i know

[pliant topaz]

best i can do is your talent that made your auto attacks do more damage is now 45% stronger

[alpine wraith]

oh and that one that just procs when you use finishers and that random dot on your dot

and the one that makes you use storm

[pliant topaz]

its okay we heard u liked razor coral or whatever right?

let me tell you

we got just the thing for you

FATAL

INTENT

[alpine wraith]

trolling intent

missed 2 zeroes

and could not give less of a fuck 4 months in

[pliant topaz]

the only thing fatal about it though is you looking through your logs to find its damage

[alpine wraith]

they now instead of 0.4

it will do 0.55

[pliant topaz]

????

0.4?

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[pliant topaz]

oh shit youre right! its 0.3 thought it was still 0.1

[alpine wraith]

yea man also remember to crit

with our great 20% crit

[lilac stag]

Best I can offer is another 35% buff to BP

[patent crystal]

Looking forward to the day where we BP on court

[hybrid prism]

not long now

[novel fog]

New to rogue (in TWW at least). I used to always prefer Sub or Outlaw. What's the consensus on the hero talents of choice in m+?

[pliant topaz]

u already do if u play deathstalker

[lilac stag]

New ST rotation is storm, Sectech, strike, BP, Strike, BP

[vale pine]

na

[tepid trellis]

lmao you got left on read by that Stealthi guy

L bozo

[lilac stag]

Haha

https://tenor.com/view/gizelly-gizellybicalho-bbb-bbb20-palhaçada-gif-18153705

[pliant topaz]

na na he actually responded u dont know

[lilac stag]

Assa + Deathstalker.

[tepid trellis]

did he now

[pliant topaz]

yeah its a different stealthi u wouldnt know him

LMFAO

[vale pine]

its a clone

[pliant topaz]

yea yea exactly

[alpine wraith]

kek

[hybrid prism]

He goes to a different school

[pliant topaz]

yeah exactly this racoon guy dont know

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/evil-smile-evil-evil-laugh-gif-10865501938883882879

[pliant topaz]

stealthi trying to attack me

but im just a chill guy

[hybrid prism]

He left you again sad 😔

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-racoon-food-cat-food-steal-gif-3466529

[tepid trellis]

https://tenor.com/view/something-smells-stinky-stinky-its-you-gif-27701154

[pliant topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/my-new-character-chill-lowkey-doesnt-care-gif-10682709799802781848

[pale burrow]

https://tenor.com/view/my-new-character-bruno-nonchalant-teaboi-gif-16787379697188318686

[short radish]

this sounds like some cursed chinese tech that the ret paladins had.

There was this build (before templar got buffed) where you played as herald of the sun and you only used divine storm as finisher even on single target because templars vedict is so shit

[eager locust]

Is the fuu spreadsheet updated with the sub buffs?

[alpine wraith]

not yet

[pliant topaz]

i mean, its not really far off

[alpine wraith]

we dont really want to do krangled overrides

just let week pass and get the real data ingame

[pliant topaz]

happens when fuu gives u a list of 10 items on why subs aoe was feeling bad in 10.2, then u say nah.

then u end up buffing the ability by like 70%

and its still a meme

[alpine wraith]

when in doubt buff deathstalker again

they have someone just laughing to the bank

[short radish]

at this point its a fucking meme

[alpine wraith]

if someone at blizz is reading i hope you are having great fun time ahaha brrrr vers stacking

now we sleep until season 2 tier set is about shadowstrike or something

[hazy breach]

My prediction is that its get or extend your dance when you press blades

So we dont need to hold 2 charges for our burst as much

[alpine valley]

any youtube guides that are legit? kind of easier to hear it explained vs reading it

haven't touched sub since amyrdrassil

[short radish]

hacha has some stuff

https://www.youtube.com/@hachadino

this guy

[alpine wraith]

yea tbh next set being about dance would be a godsend

so it is going to be about rupture

or snd

maybe every 200 autos we get a super dance

[jade urchin]

judging by previous messages i was right calling the sub buff a meme to friends? :D

except for st obviously

[alpine wraith]

well they do work and are quite high problem is

you have to play DS or press bp

when trickster was mighty fine

[short radish]

yes we've been dooming about it for the last day

[short radish]

delete this

[hazy breach]

It made me mostly sad because ill feel compelled to play deathstalker which feels way worse to play

[jade urchin]

ye i get that

[sharp kernel]

How much of a buff is coming to us?

like 3% in aoe or so?

[alpine wraith]

read pin around 5-6% in st

[sharp kernel]

oh sick ty

[alpine wraith]

aoe is a bit harder to compute

because we dont really play DS and for trickster using bp is at higher targets

[sharp kernel]

Yea true

Would probably be like 8+ targets yea?

[hazy breach]

The thing about BP as trickster is that its not based on the target count

Its based on how many find weaknesses you have, which you are not likely to have many of

So even in a pull like the big first pull of stonevault

Youre not pressing storm

Because its more worth to strike

So you dont have find weakness

[sharp kernel]

Not even for the funnel?

[hazy breach]

Which means bp do no damage

So you eviscerate

[sharp kernel]

oh stab is barely cheaper

[hazy breach]

Not stab

[sharp kernel]

didn't realize that

[hazy breach]

Strike

[sharp kernel]

oh

[alpine wraith]

also if rotten worked well with storm it would be easier

[sharp kernel]

Right

[alpine wraith]

like you can use it on the second stack

and it kinda does apply fw

but

[hazy breach]

even then, storm just does no damage

[alpine wraith]

yea

[hazy breach]

And strike trucks

[alpine wraith]

40k dmg

vs 1m

and cleave on that

HARD TO CHOOSE

i also despise blades not working on storm

from tornado

shoudl work at least on 2t+

[hazy breach]

Very possible deathstalker just ends up being better, even for aoe and low target cleave

Which is big oof

[jade urchin]

love pressing st evisc in aoe 😋

[young path]

I couldnt imagine it being too far ahead

[alpine wraith]

yea momentum of despair is quite good

well it just got vomited a lot of dmg

[hazy breach]

Even if its equal

[alpine wraith]

witness also crits for 300k+ now

on all targets

[hazy breach]

Deathstalker just does way "better"' damage

[still quartz]

y big oof

[hazy breach]

Because its not hard capped at 8 targets and the priority damage is way higher

[alpine wraith]

yea people forget DN evis are like 6m

[still quartz]

better dmg profile is always better

[young path]

I'm definitely giving it a go, but im already expecting to fall back on trickster when i think about it

[hazy breach]

And its less bursty, which is often desired in keys

[alpine wraith]

one funny thing is you can snipe DN on bosses with adds

[young path]

very true

[hazy breach]

But again, it depends on exactly what they mean with the plague stuff

[alpine wraith]

might save vanishes for that

[hazy breach]

Is singular focus getting buffed? Idk

[alpine wraith]

if they only buff the dmg numbers it will be interesting

but if singular also goes from what it is to 7.x

it will be interesting

guess i will make a guide on sniping DN

some dungeons have quite a bit of mobs you can do that

[sharp kernel]

I feel like Deathstalker would be good in mass aoe but most of these dungeons aren't pulled that large, would have to be like 6+ targets always yea?

[young path]

i just wonder if thistle tea is viable now in key for storm/bp spamming

[alpine wraith]

it likely will be but not because of the spamming

just CB is not as good

and lethality either

[hazy breach]

Well deathstalker bp should outdamage evis with nimble even at like 3 or 4

[sullen hare]

unsay those words. please. I beg of you, realz might see this

[alpine wraith]

less dmg on builders

[hazy breach]

So

[young path]

exactly

[alpine wraith]

also it is a funny thing but maybe goremaw is better than 1 point in finality

for st

[jade urchin]

i love how after 1-2 months i still see [ ]

[alpine wraith]

the energy adds up for the low times

ahaha imagine tea and goremaw to get more energy on downtimes and keep the DN train going

[young path]

yah, its like DF sub all over again

[jade urchin]

auto thistle annoying for that tho

[young path]

makes me sad, I really enjoy trickster... cool af

[alpine wraith]

auto thistle does not matter in this case

[sharp kernel]

said no one ever

[alpine wraith]

inside dance you dont go below that

[jade urchin]

ah true u take the 100+ energy to get to tea

ye adds up

[young path]

we're all too doomy, this might end up being amazing

[hazy breach]

I mean theyre just tuning numbers

You can try it for yourself

To me it just feels like losing quality of life

Because youre forced to choose between two options that feel bad constantly, whereas trickster just feels good

Like you cant supercharge both sectech and DN so you have to pick, like you cant press sectech when you want to because you have DN up so you need to "waste" sectech cdr to get your mark back etc

I explained it a bit more here: #subtlety message

[alpine wraith]

you can charge both but it is very annoying

on opener you can kinda use witness to help it but afterwards you kinda have to game a bit with rupture and even then it is NOT fun

for who knows

also getting parried is big L

[hazy breach]

And at that point its probably not worth it, but even if it were, its still a choice between two bad options

Whereas with trickster its just "yep this feels good"

[pliant topaz]

if follow the blood worked, it would already do at 2

[hazy breach]

well the value of momentum isnt much lower than follow the blood

But ye

[pliant topaz]

yeah, it probably already does on 3 then (after next week ofc)

[hybrid prism]

do ya use alchemic chaos or vers flasks?

[steep ether]

is Deathbringer going to be better than trickster with the upcoming buffs?

[hazy breach]

Largely irrelevant, they sim pretty much identical

[hazy breach]

Why do you correct me on ravenholdt without answering my DM

[hybrid prism]

I really hope so, but I seem to be the only one who wants it to be

[ornate current]

you are hoping for worst buged gameplay ? 🤨

[hybrid prism]

I think it's a cooler. Obviously I hope they fix the bugs lol

[ornate current]

cooler what ?

we dont get any visuals its just debuffs on a target

smh

they both look the same its just that DS is bugged and its playstyle is worst after dust removal

[pliant topaz]

aaa sorry i didnt actually see the dm first :c

[wind canopy]

Smh my head

[fallow nimbus]

I wonder what we get with 11.1
Something must be done to hero trees

Imagine marks stack on yourself, dn doesn't need full cp anymore, bugfixes

Until then it's misery

[hazy breach]

I tried some deathstalkering on aoe dummies now too

[short radish]

yeah they're going to make DN be able to stack till 5 stacks

[hazy breach]

And its just not a fun experience

I die inside when i have to storm at 6 cp for DN

Or i guess during dance i could strike but either way

[short radish]

this sounds so crap lol

[hazy breach]

And when you need to do that

You also fuck your energy

Since instead of getting refunded energy from a finisher

You just spend energy

Which means you can end up missing globals in dance due to energy

[alpine wraith]

goremaw in the distance

LOOK WHO NEEDS ENERGY NOW

shut up goremaw

[chrome fern]

Just add overcap cp when DN is on you go straight into shadow techniques

[bright sundial]

hello everyone just got back home, so we playing ds next week?

[alpine wraith]

you can do it i believe in you

[hazy breach]

It feel silly being so negative about getting buffed but after some extensive testing trying stuff out with deathstalker im not finding anything about it fun. For me current trickster gameplay is silky smooth and feels 10/10 fun, with that same scale deathstalker is more like a 4/10 because theres just always something thats not lining up well, or im forced to do something unfun like farming sht and delaying flag to force it to line up well, or hold onto stuff in unituitive ways that doesnt mesh well. I would genuinely have been happer if we just didnt get these huge deathstalker buffs at all i could enjoy my trickster without feeling like im playing my sepc suboptimally.

Maybe somebody else can find a way to make playing deathstalker palatable but it def aint me

[alpine wraith]

i really dislike that time when you get DN outside dance

and have to SLOWLY

backstab to 7

while knowing you are losing lots of dmg

just by not having mark on

[iron fjord]

is it worth it to skip over the dn and hope the next strike gives you max cp? I know dn is highest prio and prolly like a 5 mio crit but reading this it might be worth it

[hazy breach]

Not even remotely close to being worth it

[alpine wraith]

nonono

[hazy breach]

Mark too strong

[iron fjord]

sadge

[hazy breach]

And also your next strike is almost surely not going to give you full cp anyway

Unless youre waiting with the global a bit to have more time to proc sht

At which point youre losing a global anyway

[iron fjord]

that would be griefing yea

[hazy breach]

So its

[iron fjord]

[mild vessel]

how is sub comparred to assassin

[iron fjord]

fun

[spark tusk]

I know it's been a conversation since like July, but now with the context of playing the newer trickster gameplay with 11.0.5 and how good everything shakes out, do you have any ideas on gameplay changes for DS to make it palatable?

[iron fjord]

i like this

[tribal blade]

are we actually prepping to play DS

are we back in hell again

[hazy breach]

Fixing the mark bug would go a long way towards the issues of supercharger feeling not great with darkest night and sectech going together. But honestly just increasing the cdr on both dance and sectech a little bit. The naked symbols happens a bit more often as deathstalker since youre missing out on roughly ~7.5 or so seconds of cdr every minute from not having coup cdr. Sectech probably doesnt matter that much since its mostly the tier that feels really bad when you end up using sectech among the last gcds in dance but even a few seconds lower would go a long way to make it feel less bad if you screw up one global

Ultimately though besides darkest night deathstalker is just a glorified ansurek ring that doesnt interact with our spells in any way

Whereas the passive damage from trickster is buffing our spells directly which feels way better, even though they might be numerically similar

[hazy breach]

Turns out a 5.5-6% buff is a pretty big buff

[tribal blade]

why is blizz tinkering with a good thing we got going on

[hazy breach]

Theres also the issue of most of the deathstalker nodes being bugged in some way, but theyre pretty much all just stuff that you have to look through logs too see so most people wouldnt even know about them

Like darkest night not working with shadowed finisher, follow the blood not working with shadowed finishers, lingering darkness not working on sectech etc

[lilac stag]

Bros. We made it.

[sullen hare]

My favorite part is that !fuu is in there as if it was scandalous

[lilac stag]

It’s wholesome. Grogu made it.

[tribal blade]

yo i fucking made it

i'm famous

SHEEET i'm on there twice

[sullen hare]

Introducing a whole new tier of the hataro grading system: whether you made the supercut reddit post image

[lilac stag]

X5 get wrecked

[spark tusk]

oh that's cool

[lilac stag]

and who says screaming angrily in discord won’t get us anywhere.

[spark tusk]

I think it's pretty obvious my all caps cope message is a joke

but oh well

[lilac stag]

nah. The enlightened users of Reddit just view class discords and mouth breathers.

[pliant topaz]

i think its fine though. to people with 0 understanding of the spec and the state of deathstalker it just comes off as : these guys got a giant buff and theyre still crying. what annoying assholes.

whats scary is if thats also what devs see. because it just shows how little they even know about the spec/deathstalker

[lilac stag]

Yup

I’m at raid log mode. New Star Wars on Dec 3. Zero shits about wow soon.

[round latch]

can reckognize at least 3 familiar ppl on this 😂

[lilac stag]

Class development clearly still not an actual priority for blizzard management.

[tribal blade]

exactly, to us this is basically blizz doubling down on the shitty tree they made for us

"this tree is absolutely fine, you should play it"

[lilac stag]

While everything that should interact … doesn’t.

[pliant topaz]

people will play it

[tribal blade]

DS is a complete mess

[pliant topaz]

its a giant buff

and idk, maybe its just their managers said : buff underplayed hero talents

so the dev -> buffed underplayed hero talents

[lilac stag]

It’s gonna be what 8% ahead trick in ST sims

[pliant topaz]

which is fair, because theyre not gonna rework the tree right now

[lilac stag]

Then minus the 2% that doesn’t work

[pliant topaz]

so it is what it is. Now that making us sad because were now forced to play a horrible tree is seperate

[lilac stag]

At least you’re almost done

[round latch]

[sinful sluice]

Any tips on court? Im doing the web thing and its hurting like hell

[pliant topaz]

web does like 150k damage per second

it doesnt do much

[rocky wolf]

i felt so chill doing webs

[round latch]

im curious to see them Dslice sims

where DS stands compared to Trickster now

[tribal blade]

probably higher i imagine

for sure

[plain zephyr]

Can I drop Shuriken Tornado for something else in M+? I don't like pressing it. Or is it too big of DPS?

[round latch]

u can sim it friend

but on DS doubt u would wanna drop

[plain zephyr]

sigh...

[lilac stag]

Take TFD

[tribal blade]

the options would be WM, TFD or VT

[plain zephyr]

Okay thank you 🙂

[round latch]

cool cool

[lilac stag]

I wish fuu would update wowhead to drop nado in rec build

[round latch]

im gonna do my sims soon

im curious

[lilac stag]

Good luck getting ruptures out as DS

shit dies too quickly

[round latch]

RS bug as well

[lilac stag]

so pinch o salt

[round latch]

if it dies quickly i wont care tbh

full send the raw me

non negotiable as sub

we need to be visceral

idk if thats the correct word for it

[plain zephyr]

I couldn't take TFD without dropping Flag. So I took Veiltouched. My build must be wrong?

[round latch]

VT makes more sense but u should still sim

[hazy breach]

Drop wm, take tfd

Get veiltouched instead of nado

[plain zephyr]

Sick thank you Eleem!

[hazy breach]

Yep

Thats the tree

[round latch]

that looks fine yup

[hazy breach]

Np

[tribal blade]

be your own person and take goremaw's

[plain zephyr]

lol!

[round latch]

where is gloomblade enthusiast

bro was dropping everything to cook gloomblade

[pliant topaz]

bro quit playing once queen died

[round latch]

[pliant topaz]

im making that up

[round latch]

i hope u get ganked by a teemo smurf

[pliant topaz]

thats okay my xin somehow lost to a the teemo jungler early then called my toplaner a slur and quit

thats fine

[round latch]

teemo jungle

the memories

whats happening to league

[pliant topaz]

its fine

still more fun than wow

[wind canopy]

I heard bwipo was running that stupid rat in solo q

[pliant topaz]

wouldnt be surprised tbh

[wind canopy]

Demon playing demon

[pliant topaz]

bro this guy hit a fuckign mundo 3 i hate this gmae man

[spark tusk]

do you hate it?

where are you now?

[pliant topaz]

im going 2nd

i cant kill this thing

[wind canopy]

https://tenor.com/view/mundo-dance-gif-21753782

Mundo goes where he pleases

[pliant topaz]

WAIT

I WON

I KILLED IT

HOLY FUCK

WE ARE SO BACK

inshallah

positioning is real

fuck this guy

[wind canopy]

Oh. TFT

Now it makes sense

[pliant topaz]

some of the 4 costs this patch are super bad

like ive so far now beaten mundo3, ambessa3, and ekko 3

without even a super capped team

[tribal blade]

this isn't world of warcraft

i've been lied to

[pliant topaz]

bro imagine still playing wow

pretty sure i havent even done my weekly keys in like 2 weeks

[tribal blade]

reported

to your guild

[pliant topaz]

bros snitching smh ;p

[short radish]

lets goooo i made it on there

[wind canopy]

[tribal blade]

i hear nothing bad happens to snitches

definitely not stitches

[pliant topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/calling-call-the-police-911-gif-25252175

bro out here calling my RL like

[tribal blade]

my middle name is karen

[pliant topaz]

show me the haircut

[tribal blade]

not sure if this counts as a karen

or a badass

[wind canopy]

Karens definitely don’t look that hip

[keen dome]

That's way too cool hair, imo. When I was a Librarian, one of the ladies I worked with had hair like that. Reaaaaally punk, she owned.

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/apt-rosé-blackpink-bruno-mars-gif-1539050173426684783

[mint swift]

So we are all excited for these super fun DS changes right???

[fierce minnow]

kekw, if i am playing DS, i just spec assassination

[tribal blade]

but big buffs are big buffs

My analogy for the DS buff: Imagine you have 2 cars, they're both old but 1 is a model you absolutely love everything about, and the other you hate, from the shape, tires, interior, color. But it's all good because the shitty model you don't like handles worse, so you never drive it. A mechanic comes to your place and tunes the shit car, and suddenly it's better than the car you love. Now you drive the car you hate because it's faster, but you're hating your life because all the problems you hated about it still exist.

[sinful sluice]

Saw first intemission on court today, how far has our guild came?

Like 10%?

[keen dome]

Third of the fight, no?

[tribal blade]

it's a third since the fight is 3 phases, and you've gone through 1st phase now

[mint swift]

I do wanna ask though why is it so bad for Sub

Not dps wise

enjoyment wise

like is it cause target prio? In assa you have to target prio regardless of tree in aoe, so it isnt an issu

[round latch]

spreading ruptures and couple of bugs(RS+Mark)

im kinda waiting for the DS build for m+ tnh

[mint swift]

Woulden't you already spread ruptures in aoe?

Or not

[round latch]

replicating shadow doesnt rly work that well

(its one of the bugs)

😅

[mint swift]

Oh of fucking course it is i should have guessed haha

Bro the two main classes i play rn are bugghy

well

BM only has one bug but it's a big dps loss

i THINK, to the point where DR isnt as good as PA in ST
but icould be weong

[round latch]

personally i remain skeptical until we get some sims after the buffs go live

[round latch]

happens to all of us

(not me ofc,playing the god class )

[mint swift]

YYea

as BM im supposed to summon shadow hands and iirc 50% of the time they just arent summoend

[round latch]

Hunter is prolly my next choice for m+

idk what spec but highly unlikely ill try surv

will see

[granite hinge]

with these buffs is gonna be worth playing sub on mythic queen ansurek instead of sin or?

[vale pine]

was worth it before

[haughty mural]

rs bug fix when

[granite hinge]

i mean sub ds now better than sub trickster on queen?

or we still dunno

5.5% seems a lot

[haughty mural]

even tho most of us like trickster more - i can see why they are buffing DS

[spark tusk]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue

[keen dome]

Just had a Warrior's weapons break mid-key. Possibly the most warrior thing to happen. Poor guy, hitting stuff too hard.

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/neva-never-marc-homealone-youcantstopme-gif-9816521

[keen dome]

I should re-watch the original Home Alone.. It is almost christmas time..

Die Hard 1, Gremlins, and Home Alone 1. The ultimate christmas movie trifecta.

[lilac stag]

Christmas Vacation before HA

https://tenor.com/view/middle-finger-gif-23754644

[tribal blade]

still hard to believe nightmare before christmas was a kids movie

[broken spindle]

guys, you think that sub is gonna be better then assa in M+ after the buffs?

[tribal blade]

probably not

[spark tusk]

This was both my Halloween and Christmas movie every year growing up

[tribal blade]

it's a pretty awesome movie, really artistically well done

[spark tusk]

Yeh

[tribal blade]

i remember being on the verge of being deathly afraid every time i watched it

but it's just kiddy enough 😉

[spark tusk]

Lots of creepy moments as a kid esp if you hate bugs

[tribal blade]

i think this movie single handedly inspired a whole bunch of goth kids in the 90s/early 2000s haha

[lilac stag]

Have you watched the original Willy Wonka?

[tribal blade]

nah i never did

i did read the book though

[lilac stag]

You should. That was a kids movie.

Fucking terrifying. lol

[tribal blade]

haha yeah i've seen clips of it

speaking of those kinds of movies

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0457430/

this movie baited so many people

it looks like an awesome kid's movie

and in actual reality it's absolutely horrifying

one of my favorite movies of all time

[keen dome]

Pan's Lab is so fucking gooood

Del Toro, the goat

There's so many great things in that film

[tribal blade]

yeah it's incredible

never fails to make me cry

[keen dome]

I'll watch anything Del Toro makes

He's one of my favourite writer / directors

Shape of water

[tribal blade]

i only watched the shape of water once, maybe i should rewatch it

[vale pine]

never watched it, maybe i should

[keen dome]

It's on D+ if you've got it. It's really really good.

[tribal blade]

which one?

[keen dome]

Also, Netflix has Del Toro's horror anthology series where he presents the episodes, and it's a collection of different horror director / writers doing one off episodes. Cabinet of Curiousities

It's excellent

[tribal blade]

oh i think i heard about that

[keen dome]

It's excellent and one of my favourite styles 'cos it just lets different people flex their styles and writing and approaches

[tribal blade]

sounds kind of like black mirror, i'm interested

[vale pine]

shape of water

[keen dome]

Yeah. Pretty much. Just very strong anthology stuff. I'm a huge fan of series that are just "Hey we're giving this director / writer a budget and seeing what they make"

Gives people room to flex, to try stuff, different actors in different roles. Basically short stories for television

[round latch]

very xmas 🤘

[round latch]

yup i remember this one

and Vidocco

that french movie

[keen dome]

Love Death Robots is another good one. A lot of their stuff is adapting short sci-fi stories too

[tribal blade]

i think i've seen clips of this one yeah

[tribal blade]

me too, i like it when artistic integrity is put to the forefront over making money

[keen dome]

yeah!

[round latch]

Its 2001 iirc

23 years ago

[keen dome]

Zima Blue

[tribal blade]

it has such a distinct art style i recognized it immediately from the poster

[round latch]

yup

same year that brotherhood of the wolf came out

2 french movies same year

[keen dome]

Speaking of french movies: April and the Extraordinary World. Excellent, moving, genius.

[round latch]

Im trying to remember the name of another movie with a cursed dude same atmospheric movie like the two french ones

damn cant recall

[lilac stag]

Evil Dead. Very cursed dude

[round latch]

bah im gonna find it

my brain is stuck

[mystic ether]

Does anyone do the mists trick where you start playing sub for the first boss then tp out? What talents do you run?

[lilac stag]

run the standard sub m+ build.

TFD and lingering. Not tornado.

and just play the whole thing as sub

[gritty knot]

I recently watched Transformers. Very good movie, excellent actors, very good storywriting, action, sadness. The part with Megan Fox bending over the car actually moved me to tears. 10/10 would recommend

[mystic ether]

can you link me a tree please?

[lilac stag]

Just look on wowhead or rio

[mystic ether]

There's a talent build for that scenario?

[lilac stag]

We have one build

We aren’t assa rogues with 26474944 different options.

Look at any posted 15 sub run

That’s 99% going to be the build. If the have tornado, remove it and take TFD and lingering.

run mad queens trinket & transmitter.

fuck I’m exhausted from try Harding boss dmg in keys because the meta spec sucks at boss dmg.

[hazy breach]

Nah fuck queens mandate

[light imp]

Void reapers sims higher for me in almost every situation over mandate, currently have a deadeye spyglass next to my transmitter

[hazy breach]

Yes

[vestal escarp]

Crystal my beloved

[round latch]

and delve knoif

also beloved

[vestal escarp]

I'll farm that for s2

[round latch]

they better make the game better in s2 else im gonna quit gaming and look after my life

[tribal blade]

i've started dialing back my effort in key pushing

[vestal escarp]

Theres no hc week and im positive you can farm 10s day one

With 636-39

Also personally if sub isnt turbometa im doing weeklies next season, dont care pushing another season as sin and hate keys rotation

[tribal blade]

i've gotten to the point this season where i'm basically not getting invites anymore, and there aren't a lot of 15s available in queue at any given time

and i don't have the willpower to run my own key and really try hard

don't have the same fire anymore

[vestal escarp]

My own key success rate if it's full lfg is 0

This season so far

[tribal blade]

i tend to be quite good at vetting

because i check logs and shit, but yeah you can find some real terrorists

who perform a drive by

and leave without apologizing for yakuzaing your key

[vestal escarp]

Or just ppl lacking the required effort to run a competitive key of it's not their own

[tribal blade]

y. e s

100000%

[lilac stag]

For the first boss in mists? Mandate is very good.

Try Harding anyways so go back to assa trinkets.

[round latch]

did this 11 arakara,3k lock floor povs the meters,dies 6 times on last boss and leaves,we deplete(11min on the clock left us and the boss)

bro couldnt dodge the slimes

[tribal blade]

haha classic

[tribal blade]

wait did you say you depleted on last boss with 11 mins left

with no wipe

[round latch]

yeah the man kept dying and we wiped twice

no we wiped

after 2nd wipe he left

[tribal blade]

oh my god what a legend

[round latch]

he died twice 1st one,we fought it,overwhelmed in like 7%

2nd he died every single time he got res'dhad a ss on him as well

idk

kept feeding

[vestal escarp]

Bro just tilted

[tribal blade]

same thing happened in the 15 ara i timed tbh, the lock died 2 times, the dk died 1 time and the rsham had to reincarnate once

[round latch]

[tribal blade]

i was the only non tank who didn't die on last boss

so we timed it

[round latch]

we typically step the singularity cast man,clos it,feint once to proc CD maybe

bro just dies to slimes

those wave thingies

[tribal blade]

you can play it safe if you're afraid and just sit in a slime

but yeah

[round latch]

yup

[tribal blade]

dying to slimes as ranged is cringe

you got so much space while melee are desperately trying not to cockblock each other

being in melee is terrifying when insta poison dispels go out

[round latch]

very much so!

and u have shamies doing their casual stuff,chilling in the back n stuff

and locks porting

we get to play through hell

[tribal blade]

at least every boss in ara is good for sin

because you can spread rupture on all of them

i legit didn't even realize how much you could just get your full energy bar back on last boss

till i watched kush do last boss

you can just spam buttons non stop because spreading a random rupture on the blobs gives you full energy back when they die pretty much

[round latch]

yeah pretyt much

thats the play there

its kinda obvious

i just dont know man if its even worth playing this season

like whats more to it

[tribal blade]

i'm new to playing sin in keys so i didn't quite grasp the importance of rupture spreading like that

now my damage is very good as sin

[round latch]

rup is big,more energy more dmg

yup

also scent stacks

[vestal escarp]

I always ask how the sham is going to play totem on last boss

Cause often they are fucking terrorists with it

Also too bad that cos and vanish dont work on that mechanic

[hazy breach]

Not really.

You should have transmitter for every phase anyway

[lilac stag]

You can mandate in burst phase with it in execute range.

your master trinket ain’t making up for that for phasing

[hazy breach]

Well its either transmitter or mandate on the phase

you wont be getting both

[spark tusk]

haha trueeee

[storm vault]

Is sub bad Tuesday?

[crisp cradle]

yes ( no )

[storm vault]

Me personally I may take DS in a dungeon like CoT

Or siege actually. Would first have to see how much that funnel damage really is 🤔

[mild vessel]

question: if flag and shadowblade should be used together... why is every rotation showing them used seperately?

[hazy breach]

Well flag is 24 seconds long and blades is 16 seconds

So you can use them together without using them at the exact same time

[storm vault]

I meant back but the response was good either way @crisp cradle

[hazy breach]

But ye idk maybe theres a better verbiage we could use

[mild vessel]

so the initial 12 secs is the same as the persist?

i thought it was 2 seperate things

so i should seperate the macros then

[storm vault]

You build up during the initial 12. Thats also why you delay the blades

[hazy breach]

Well once its stacked up theyre the same thing

[storm vault]

So you just start of with nearly full stacks

[mild vessel]

gotcha

[mild vessel]

sorry another question

should i be trying to spread alot of ruptures ?

[hazy breach]

Yes and no

If you go into a pack with flag+blades ready you typically only rupture the main big guy and then send your cds

But after that (or in the next pack) you typically want to rupture everything before you send another dance, assuming it will live for like 12+ seconds

Since you do no damage outside of dance your eviscerates wont do much, but your ruptures are gonna last until you dance again so theyre "technically dance finishers" despite you using them outside of dance

(obviously only works if the targets arent dying immediately)

[vale pine]

haha, the player is actually named unknown, i thought the user left the server

[left ledge]

Sub can’t funnel with DS

The only reason assa can is because it has fast spread hard hitting dots and caustic

I don’t even think sectec damage contributes to the funnel talent

[hazy breach]

This is just false

The prio damage with DS is noticeably higher than trickster, getting decently close to assas

[left ledge]

That’s just because it does more ST in a ST focused rotation

That’s not funnel

[hazy breach]

Well you get more finishers, which means more darkest night

Getting more damage to your main target from having other targets is funnel no?

[left ledge]

Thats not DS specific?

You’re basically just ST the main add down

[hazy breach]

Well trickster strikes, and the eviscerates from darkest night does significantly more than tricksters

[left ledge]

Yeah ofc but the singular focus talent does fuck all for us

Or whatever it was called

[hazy breach]

It does a bit

Especially if it gets buffed by 45%

[left ledge]

The one that lets assa do so much prio in aoe

I mean what can we even proc it with

[hazy breach]

Black powder?

[left ledge]

That’s less prio than evis…

[hazy breach]

Its not

[left ledge]

You’re telling me you’re gonna do more prio damage bping in like a standard pull

Than evis

[sullen hare]

When it gets buffed again yes lmao

[hazy breach]

Evis barely does more damage than BP after the buffs

[sullen hare]

Which it will be

[young path]

im guessing 5 pack pull u funnel w/evis, 6+ you BP most scenarios

[hazy breach]

BP does like 70% of the damage of eviscerate

[young path]

im just swagging though

[left ledge]

Okay and how much is singular focus

[hazy breach]

~8.2% additional per target

[left ledge]

Excluding main target ofc so

7-8 targets to match evis in funnel?

And then you still have to evis with DN

Is that 8.2 after buffs

Or before

[sullen hare]

On one hand I don't understand people's aversion to pressing BP, on the other hand they really did take it out back and shoot it in DF..

[left ledge]

BP is a boring weak button

Always was

It was just spammable before

[void hound]

its less about BP and more that trickster AOE is just more fun

[young path]

BP w/dark brew and tornado is st00pid fun

(kinda miss it)

[hazy breach]

Ok so i double checked and with momentum up (which it should be) and no finality specced its actually more like 84% of eviscerates damage

[left ledge]

Huh

[hazy breach]

Which means at roughly 3 extra targets it does the same as eviscerate on your main target. With the 45% buff to singular and 20% buff to bp

[left ledge]

Really?

[hazy breach]

And finality makes it higher