subtlety

[golden totem]

DS buff 💀

[hazy breach]

I love my spec being about random instances of plague damage

[alpine wraith]

and I LOVE AUTOATTACKING

[hazy breach]

Instead of buffing and interacting with my kit in a fun and interactive way

[alpine wraith]

and using storm in st

or changing any of the 8 dead talents or weak ones we have in the middle slop of the tree

[heady dragon]

assa in ST flips coins, outlaw flips coins, sub is random plague dmg

screw you and thinking that abilitys should do stuff

passive dmg effects mate

[alpine wraith]

but hey mark now can crit for almost 700k

pog

or maybe more in raid

because im in dummy

[hazy breach]

They should buff trickster for outlaw by a lot

And totemic for enhance

[alpine wraith]

trickster for outlaw already is in theory better than fb

but fucken madden suicide spec

[heady dragon]

oh god no, even i dont want to force outlaw into killing spree

[warm marlin]

please no god no

[alpine wraith]

also they just buffed sub in pvp

we een habben a big probleeem

on that

expect snack nerfs in 1 week

[heady dragon]

"hero talents" keep showing us why they are a mistake

[alpine wraith]

dont worry second tier sets can also show uis

the fun of the game

like in DF

SYMBOLS SET

[serene notch]

so are we trying to be DS in M+ now?

[alpine wraith]

you can do it

i believe in you

[serene notch]

lol

[alpine wraith]

not touching that burning pile of

[serene notch]

im out fighting for my life in these streets man

[hazy breach]

I would not recommend

[alpine wraith]

gameplay

[crisp cradle]

Ehh how ds will work in m+

[alpine wraith]

same as before

[serene notch]

i que as sin and switch to sub >_>

[alpine wraith]

nothing changed apart from bigger number

[serene notch]

pushing us towards BP, just seems....like not the move

[alpine wraith]

guess tomorrow i will make the DS things now that it might come back

[hazy breach]

BP buff is fine

[serene notch]

Deathstalker: Plague damage effects increased by 45%. This make DS clearly better in raid again i guess?

[hazy breach]

[plain thorn]

Is the buffs big?

[fallow nimbus]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue

[alpine wraith]

yes for st the dmg increase will be noticeable

still dont have exact numbers

we may also change build a bit

[pliant topaz]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

Subtlety
Deathstalker: Plague damage effects increased by 45%.
Black Powder damage increased by 20%.
https://www.wowhead.com/news/upcoming-class-tuning-incoming-enhancement-shaman-and-prot-paladin-nerfs-351453?utm_source=discord-webhook

• Roughly +5.5% on ST. (Raidbots is updated)
• Very large aoe buff, is playable in aoe now.

Playstyle is mostly the same as Trickster, key difference being:

• Use as fast as possible in every single scenario. (aoe/in cds/outside of cds, all the time)
• Use with Clear the Witnesses up on pure ST when you do not have up.
• Use in aoe during if there is more than 3 targets.
• Use as your aoe finisher when is not up.

Deathstalker Singletarget talents:
CUQAA0tw2gAD7pPTLoW5IGZDeAAM2mBAAAAAgZZMWmmZGzMGGDDzMzMjxsNMzYbbMjZmZMYsMbDAAAgZGMsZWmxsNDjFGWmZZahWmFYA
https://i.imgur.com/gelHTrC.png

Deathstalker aoe talents:
CUQAA0tw2gAD7pPTLoW5IGZDeAAM2mBAAAAAgZZMWmGzYmxMDzMDzMjhxsNMzYbbmZmZmZAjlZbAAAAYGMsZWmxsNDjFGWmZZahWmFYA
If you dont like you can just take Veiltouched instead, the difference is not very big.
https://i.imgur.com/MBbWFzp.png

[alpine wraith]

fucken mark is going to crit for almost 900k

kekw

[tribal blade]

i don't think they really thought at all about what sub's going through

and instead saw "nobody's playing DS, better buff it"

instead of actually looking into WHY nobody plays DS

[hazy breach]

Some people even played DS on the ST bosses

Wcl has ~9% DS on kyveza

Whereas for outlaw for example its literally 0% trickster

[alpine wraith]

outlaw literally kills you

[hazy breach]

Idk why this big of a buff was necessary

[alpine wraith]

at least DS only wants to make you kill yourself in the fight

[hazy breach]

But idk probably just overreacting because the flow of current trickster is the best its been in years and now were forced to take steps backwards instead of forwards again

[tribal blade]

i don't think it's overreacting

[alpine wraith]

we are sad and disappointed

[tribal blade]

sub finally landed in a spot where it was mostly positive feedback from everyone

[alpine wraith]

but cant overreact with 20x less the playerbase of the others

[hazy breach]

Enhance got nerfed though so rogue stonks for m+ went up

[tribal blade]

i was talking to a 3300 enhance i know, he said the nerf is pretty big

[alpine wraith]

it affects directly how they work with super haste

so yes

[hazy breach]

One of the tc:ers were saying between 3-5% depending on what they touch

[jaunty heath]

Good

[alpine wraith]

the surv one is funny tho

[hazy breach]

Surv slaps

[alpine wraith]

i mean the nerf

[tribal blade]

dude surv does a lot of dammy

i was watching bansherz do a key

[hazy breach]

Assa probably shouldve gotten some nerfs too

[alpine wraith]

i mean if you know how it works it changes nothing

they just change 1 thing for the other

[tribal blade]

i know very little about surv haha

except they throw bombs

[hazy breach]

Trueshotlodge says ~2% or so nerf

[brave knoll]

wym, both are nerfs?

[strange chasm]

Ass no ST in keys so no nerf

meanwhile enhance ST and AOE

[alpine wraith]

the nerf is not super big

[tribal blade]

i don't think sv warrants big nerfs

they're not being played at the very top end anyways

[wind canopy]

Make sure if you’re watching his stream you type !scana

[tribal blade]

ohhh shit nice

[wind canopy]

right @shut sonnet?

[tribal blade]

i was helping a guildie of mine who's not very good at the game get 10s done, as BM he was doing like 900k overall

and then swapped to surv and is now doing like 1.5 mil overall

[shut sonnet]

what

[wind canopy]

On Bansherz’s stream

!scana

[shut sonnet]

[wind canopy]

ily

[alpine wraith]

tuat reminds me i have to change the !dust command

[tribal blade]

!dust RIP

[wicked jolt]

Cooldown Use:
Cooldown Breakdown Spreadsheet - by Stealthi
Website visualizing top logs - lorrgs.io

[shut sonnet]

retiredge

[wind canopy]

Yeeeee

[alpine wraith]

the end of an era

[shut sonnet]

go play for consequence

[wind canopy]

???????

[tribal blade]

i'm actually on stormrage

[shut sonnet]

its your time then

[wind canopy]

Yeah go apply to consequence prophet

I believe

[tribal blade]

haha nah there's no way

[shut sonnet]

many cute boys in that guild

[tribal blade]

1. i'm not good enough

2. i've been with my guild a long time

[daring niche]

are we back

[alpine wraith]

we are annoyed

[short radish]

we are angry

[daring niche]

buffing unfun deathstalker

[sinful sluice]

Hahahaha

Black powder buff again

Was thrilled when i heard the sub buff news and checked the details 💀

[rustic raven]

Damb yall ungrateful asf. Hope they nerf sectec by 50%

[tribal blade]

yeah it's not great

[tidal python]

What gets me is their rationale for buffing it

[hazy breach]

Its a fine rationale

[tidal python]

Clearly should've buffed killing spree damage too then

[tribal blade]

if you actually have any understanding of how sub works you would know what they're doing isn't that great

[hazy breach]

Its weak and nobody is playing it

But buffing the plague damage is not the way to solve it

Idea is good, execution is not great

[tribal blade]

frankly it's a little lazy

[hazy breach]

Couldve just fixed the bugs tbf

[short radish]

buffing plague damage is such a cop out

[tidal python]

Too much effort

[short radish]

its basically an aura buff

except more targetted

because cant have everything hitting bigger

[hazy breach]

Less bursty and makes vers even better

I was hoping we could use the mastery effects from the new ring for big crits, but were back to the vers stacking damage proc prison we had in dragonflight with the deathstalker stuff

I wanted to put this in the pin but felt that it was too much doomer, but i cant really think of a less interesting way of buffing deathstalker

Besides maybe buffing literally only hunt them down

This buff just exacerbates the problems i feel like the tree has

Idk

[lone halo]

Whats up sub bros

Buffs worth switching from Sin?

[short radish]

no

[tribal blade]

prob not

[lone halo]

based on comments i see its not ha

[short radish]

stay in sin

[lone halo]

damn

[short radish]

where the devs care about you

[lone halo]

i loved sub few xpacks back

[tribal blade]

it's a very bandaid flat % damage buff across the board kinda buff

[hazy breach]

Ye but in the worst possible way

[tribal blade]

exactly yeah

[short radish]

how you reckon this means for sub on mythic queen ansurek?

still a trickster angle?

[hazy breach]

Probably not unless youre needed for tomb damage or last phase add damage

[short radish]

we're not breaking anymore

everyone has immune

ugh

great

i love learning a new spec

[hazy breach]

Non-flag Dance timings are gonna be different too since you'll be missing coup cdr

[short radish]

wait 🙃 does this mean that forcing black powder in ST is a thing again in trickster

cant wait to see sims

[hazy breach]

Probably not

And if it is its probably like +0,2%

[short radish]

thank fuck

well hopefully we kil sunday then

[hazy breach]

I mean if you just play trickster

[short radish]

why couldnt they ahve brought this in the .07 patch

[hazy breach]

Its just like before

[short radish]

ye

i probably stick with it

relearning timings 150 pulls in is kinda cringe

[hazy breach]

You mean like when they removed dust?

[short radish]

dw im sure blizzard are watching over sub right now and have big reworks coming for the 11.1 patch

[tribal blade]

i would have liked to see some buffs that directly affect trickster

[short radish]

[hybrid prism]

I’m all for them making death stalker better. It’s so much cooler to me than trickster. Now if they would just buff the dark brew talent I can feel like a full on rogue of the shadows

[hazy breach]

Themewise yes

[lilac stag]

GTFO

[short radish]

yeah if they fixed deathstalker bugs

[hazy breach]

Gameplay wise no

[short radish]

that would have been good

[lilac stag]

Deathstalker is shit on sub

[short radish]

i dont mind having a pure ST spec and then everything else

[lilac stag]

And a blanket buff is fucking awful

[tribal blade]

consuming DN on sub is misery and suffering

[short radish]

but yeah blanket "heres damage stop complaining" is just cringe

and a cop out

[lilac stag]

Fix the fucking bugs

[rustic raven]

Twas a joke. I hope they nerf sectec by another 30% just for you

[lilac stag]

Or just let us play something we enjoy

[tribal blade]

anger

[short radish]

[hazy breach]

[hybrid wave]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue

[wind canopy]

lol chungess

[hybrid prism]

I’m just a dad that pugs heroic aotc nowadays and does keys. I still play trickster because it’s amazing, but sometimes I wanna just play what makes me feel cool, ya know? I’m not pushing for CE anymore like I used to!

[tribal blade]

summon anakin in here 😉

[lilac stag]

And for heroic it don’t matter

Dad bod deathstalker all you want

[hazy breach]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e2w0iHBCVp8K7hdSk1T8RKtUK9lr4FsRqFWd68FCQnk/pubhtml?gid=579089422&single=true

[hazy breach]

Heres another more updated bug list

[hybrid prism]

I play it as much as I can but for cleave fights you just have to play trickster

[lilac stag]

what cleave fights in heroic besides Court

[hybrid prism]

Brood for one

[lilac stag]

hahah

Adds die in 3 globals

[hybrid prism]

A lot of them have cleave

[short radish]

what the actual fuck lmao

how

[lilac stag]

they don’t

[hybrid prism]

Just feels better as trickster

[lilac stag]

If you have a fury warrior

Because DS is shit to play

[alpine wraith]

only works on the phys part

[tribal blade]

you could say there's no meaningful cleave on heroic except court

[lilac stag]

Buffing it won’t make it suddenly feel better

It’s the same fucked up krangled ass gameplay

[hazy breach]

Theres an argument to play deathstalker on brood too because the funnel is way better so youll have big boss dps

[lilac stag]

Fuck off blizzard

[hybrid prism]

I mean it feels good to me. It’s almost like different people like different things. Plus thematically it’s way cooler, imo.

It just doesn’t keep up with trickster, that’s all.

[tidal python]

Thematically speaking it makes sense

[hybrid prism]

I do wish they actually changed something over just generally buffing damage. That never works

[tidal python]

Has an undead flavour to it but it makes perfect sense

It's just very passive and buggy

[hybrid prism]

Yeah I actually think it should be shadow damage

Not plague

[wind canopy]

If we see changes, it'll be in the 11.1 patch...

[lilac stag]

12.1

[hybrid prism]

Then we might want to play dark brew and gloom blade, which would make me super happy

[short radish]

delete this and any refence to funnel. nature is finally healing about sub funnel

[tribal blade]

man just look at some of the other tuning and how much thought was put into it

[hazy breach]

Well that tree is the main reason assa has good funnel

[wind canopy]

Plague is shadow damage though...

[hybrid prism]

Does shadow damage buff plague?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[hybrid prism]

Didn’t know that

Sick

Either way though, it should be pure shadow damage. Weird that it’s plague, imo.

[tidal python]

Just pretend you're a forsaken

[wind canopy]

Well, if you're sharing the tree with another spec, kinda need a way to let it work for both specs

Damage type wise

[hazy breach]

Its designed for assassination, so they just changed it to plague (nature+shadow) instead of nature

Boom now it works for sub too!

[hybrid prism]

slow clap genius

[tidal python]

Rogues got some of the most underwhelming hero trees tbh

[hazy breach]

Its pretty clear that theyve designed one tree for each spec and shoehorned in the other spec

[tribal blade]

the majority of the work being done on the rogue hero trees udring the beta was them just fixing all the problems from the earliest released versions which were turbo badly made

[hazy breach]

Like trickster for outlaw doesnt function well, fatebound isnt appreciated much as assa and deathstalker is just super wonky as sub

[tribal blade]

i would argue DS doesn't even work well with sin in some aspects too

because of how terrible it is to reapply mark if you lose it

but damage wise DS is amazing on sin

[hazy breach]

Ye thats fair but atleast theres some good stuff there. Like fok crit chance is good, the plague stuff and DN cleaves and out of cd damage is higher so lingering is worth more

[tribal blade]

yeah all the damage nodes feel great as sin

it all works well together

[short radish]

all they need to do to make DS not shit on sin is (if you do not have a current mark buff active, your next mutilate applies DM)

[hazy breach]

Fatal intent obviously needs like a 500% buff

[tidal python]

Imagine being an assassination rogue flipping coins

[short radish]

then all the problems with sin is resolved

and no one plays any other rogue spec

[tribal blade]

yeah i think this idea is good

[tribal blade]

bro fatal intent is so bad

so, so bad

it's basically useless

[hazy breach]

Tbh thats probably better than if it did damage

And you wanted to hold dances/shivs for it

[tribal blade]

oh gross

[swift tinsel]

"Black Powder is used far more frequently as Deathstalker than as Trickster and is receiving a sizable damage increase" isn't that the whole point...?

These are disappointing notes to read

[hazy breach]

Ive hit a dummy for a long while now as deathstalker and its obviously not horrible, but it just adds a lot of unnecessary friction that makes your burst windows not feel smooth.
You end up with situations where you cant hit supercharger on both darkest night and sectech so you have to choose between them, which feels bad, and if you get "lucky" and have a bunch of sht procs during your burst you end up with 7cp and sectech at 1 second left, so you need to eviscerate anyway, which then makes it so your sectech hits 0.3 seconds before you dance ends, so if you lose even half a second of uptime while not a dummy that would screw you over. Its also not possible to get good value out of 4p during the later half of your burst since sectech is hitting at best like 3 seconds before your burst ends.

Its like a good gravy with lumps of flour in it that wasnt whisked properly, whereas trickster is just a smooth sauce

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/peepo-peepoleave-gif-20075315

[tribal blade]

this sounds horrendous

[alpine wraith]

it has always been annoying yea

[hazy breach]

Obviously you could engineer your bursts to always hit supercharger on both

But that often means backstabbing and holding flag

[swift tinsel]

I'm just gonna stick with trickster and actively enjoy playing sub

[hazy breach]

Which feels even worse

[alpine wraith]

rupture making things asynch for finality and DN is annoying too

[hazy breach]

Wise choice

[muted agate]

does DS play dark bro

[swift tinsel]

I can justify my damage and if I'm missing out on a few % I'm okay with that

[hazy breach]

Unlikely

[muted agate]

atleast didnt forget about this spec unlike unholy

[hazy breach]

If im being honest i wouldve rather been forgotten because then i wouldnt feel forced to swap to deathstalker

[tribal blade]

this feels real shitty after coming off some really good changes

looks like we're back to this kind of bs again

[hazy breach]

Surely they fix the mark bug so our dance windows feel better

Ok enough dooming, im off to bed

[tribal blade]

good night!!

[short radish]

if they fixed the mark bug

would DS feel playable?

[tribal blade]

probably better, but honestly overall not by much i think

[short radish]

[tribal blade]

trickster has so many things that synergize so well with sub

[short radish]

i just want sub to be playable and fun

[tribal blade]

me too

[short radish]

assi drains my will to play wow

when i am forced to play it

i dont know why, that spec just feels so not fun to play

like i'm not in control of my damage

i just press some buttons

maintain some stuff

and somehow im doing numbers

[swift tinsel]

It doesn't have the same payoff like sub does when you nail your cd windows

idk I hope they drop the 45% to 25-30% so it doesn't seem so steep, idc about BP buffs

[tribal blade]

DS tree doesn't really need any % tuning, it needs bug fixes and changes to how it works as a whole for sub

[rocky ocean]

what's the bug?

[swift tinsel]

can def feel the lumps of flour. the loss of coup cdr is really noticable after playing with it a lot

[alpine wraith]

yea you cant ever send sec tech alone now

as DS

[stark zealot]

Hows the deathstalker buff?

[swift tinsel]

would prefer an RS bugfix or any others to it

[nimble burrow]

brothers what should i do to save my DS mark

I always lost it in M1

[alpine wraith]

shadowstrike

[mortal crag]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[mossy raptor]

never played sub before. norm assassin. what is the aoe opener?

[spark tusk]

As trickster you basically just do st

maybe spread ruptures if your tank is still gathering mobs

once they plant their feet you just go

[plush roost]

Sub "openers" in aoe is usually just storm powder spam tbh. Right now trickster lets you play ST

Sub aoe in DF was very boring lol

[spark tusk]

yeah

I'm just closing my eyes to ds

recent buffs don't exist they can't hurt me

[plush roost]

They should have made some sort of stacking buff that gets consumed form powder, so you can at least have some semblance of decisions with it

[mossy raptor]

so basically shadow strike into evis while your not in your window?

[spark tusk]

And maintain rupture

[mossy raptor]

any good macros to use?

[spark tusk]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns.
The following macros are an exception:yaml /cast Cold Blood /cast Secret Technique

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[mossy raptor]

i did the cold blood technique already actually

[mossy raptor]

any weak auras that dynamically change backstab and shadowstrike? noob sub

or how to set it up

[blazing cedar]

I feel you, I mean it's nice to do great numbers, but the playstyle itself it's daunting and unenjoyable for me personally, I'm just looking for an excuse to play sub tbh

CasualAddict last night played sub in mists 18 up to and including the first boss and it did respectable dmg compared to enha

to fix sub after MDI is over

[mossy raptor]

why is it daunting

[blazing cedar]

I always hated dot classes, like I love the concet of shadow priest and warlock, but cant get around to play them, because of the dots

And now you have to manage dots, press envenom, apply splatter

I mean I only play m+, so in AoE its a bit too much, while looking for all the other shit in the dungeon

[mossy raptor]

i was just starting to try sub tonight and i was like this is so many buttons. assassin is so much easier lol. bleed. spatter. envenom. lol

so many short cds with sub

[blazing cedar]

lol, im the opposite, sub just "clicks" for me, also CD's are the other shit, in sub they're short so i just send them all the time

with assa i feel like im always saving them

[mossy raptor]

just use at start of packs on biggest prio. def dont save

[young mango]

Sub has one single target point generator and one aoe same for finishers its quite simple.

[mossy raptor]

i def think id prefer trickster even though i play stalker on assassin

[fluid tusk]

Are we going to play DS now?

[mossy raptor]

you even hit black powder when playing trickster?

[fair stump]

There's a small min max you can do when you have coup up and there's a few seconds before major cds comes

but if you ignore that, then no

[round latch]

not that im aware of but we going close and personal with bp now

[mossy raptor]

how much rupturing should you be doing as sub?

[round latch]

outside our cds we pretty much rup in m+

for ST we are a stab simulator

unless ofc stuff change now with DS being a thing

need to revisit the guide myself

[tribal blade]

depends on how long stuff will live

if you're gonna fight a trash pack in M+ that'll live a while, its good to spread rupture on every mob in between cds

oh did casual leave the team he was pushing with

with kira, ayij and yarrgir

[round latch]

im interested to see what kush does now

[tribal blade]

as in with sin/sub?

kush is a big experimenter, i suspect we'll see him trying sub out

[round latch]

yup!I wanna see more of his sub side now

he is well known sub pumper

[tribal blade]

the big thing is he hates the RS bug

it really bothers him, so i'm not sure if he'd be willing to run sub

[round latch]

he hates everything so that checks out on that list 😂

kidding

[tribal blade]

haha!

[round latch]

yeah its annoying

[tribal blade]

i think he would be more willing to run it to gain some boss dam

over sin

if sub can do enough big aoe damage with the BP buff now then it could be worth running in some dungeons to gain boss dam

[round latch]

Im hoping for a 200iq sub plan in the tournies ahead idk

this spec has so much potential

[tribal blade]

i just really wish blizz had put more thought into the buffs

i'm watching casual's latest key he uploaded, i could be wrong but it seems like he's in kinda a bad mood

hopefully there wasn't any key drama that happened

i've already been seeing a bunch of key drama around echo's team

because they have to tell off their healer raz in literally every single key

for bad comms/not being there for prep before key/etc etc

[narrow shadow]

Well, everyone needs to be running a sub to be able to play the game

[tribal blade]

took me a while to get that 😉

[vestal escarp]

Erm

What the skibidi

What the silly heck are these notes

Hello? Planet rogue calls blizzard

🗣️📞

[tribal blade]

welcome

slight dooming in here

[vestal escarp]

No nerfs so i wont call on dr doom

But still

"Deathstalker as a hero talent choice has been underserving Subtlety"

Yeah no shot

DS has a nasty af bug

Nobody wants to play it

Duuude

[round latch]

gonna check casualdaddy later on today,kinda in the middle of something,got ppl coming in my place soon

[vestal escarp]

Also literally nobody asked for more flat aoe dmg from DS in aoe

All the opposite

More prio to compete with trickster

Bah

[narrow shadow]

I feel playing sub as DS is playing some budget version of Assa, with the plague damage, more focus on rupture, etc probably need to run dark brew

Trickster is actually pretty cool

Just wish we had more flavor/visuals

[vestal escarp]

Idk

Buff singular

Fix fatal intent

Fix the mark bug

Any choice could have been slightly better

[round latch]

its more likely war in ukraine ends first and then the mark bug gets fixed

😅

[vestal escarp]

Now turns out TCers come up with that if you have momentum up you can use BP in st for a danse stack

[narrow shadow]

Yeah, sure I'm not saying anything about the changes. Just that for me DS doesn't click thematically for Sub since assa already fits better this theme of plagueness/dots

[vestal escarp]

Look

Ds has some very fun and powerful interactions with sub, the first (and probably the only one, kek) is increased crit chance/guaranteed crits for a spec that runs sub 5k raw crit in this season

[keen dome]

My friend woke me up with "Look! Sub is getting a buff!" and I got out of bed and looked.

I am cold and annoyed I got out of bed 😠

[vestal escarp]

It was left behind after 0.5 for collateral reasons simply because sub favors trickster interactions more

Since in patchwerk dmg it was already behind to ds

Also in aoe it interacts with all the wrong things sub suffers in aoe

[narrow shadow]

Yeah, sure. Ideally all choices would be close to each other so that everyone can choose their favorite one. I'm not even saying about the gameplay of the spec or anything, just that for me particularly thematically DS is more an assa thing with the focus on the dots and plague damage

There's lots of bugs in most specs which sucks

[vestal escarp]

The intent of the notes is genuine but the exevutions is in another direction entirely

[tribal blade]

looks like he's running with a new team now, with a mistweaver of all things

[vestal escarp]

They buffed plague dmg because DB pick rate plummeted drastically

[tribal blade]

that's crazy that they introduced a new talent that's really, really good

but we can't take it and DB at the same time

[vestal escarp]

It's another case of weirdchamp band aids

[tribal blade]

yeah it's pretty big bandaid stuff

with not much thought

at all

[keen dome]

Just wait until they fix all the bugs.

We're gonna be the most broken spec for a day or two..

[vestal escarp]

And it strikes as a clear sky lightning since we were still in honeymoon with 0.5

[tribal blade]

yeah it's weird

everything is going so well right now for sub

just needed a bit of a push in aoe maybe

[keen dome]

Hey, nothing is being nerfed. So it's still positive!

[tribal blade]

true!

[vestal escarp]

Yeah

But honestly nothing warranted a nerf

Sin saying they dodged

Nah bro they didnt dodge anything

[keen dome]

Yeah, it didn't. They're trying to make DS more playable and viable by turning the knob which is fair but it needs a fundamental re-design or something

[vestal escarp]

4th dps choice in key meta and strong only in boss dmg in raid

You will never run DS in keys as sub

[keen dome]

It becoming the ST choice isn't bad since it's returning to giving people choice but I agree that it's a strange direction to go rather than addressing the underlying issue there but maybe they are going to do that in 11.1.

[vestal escarp]

The silent strom build loses a ton of st

[keen dome]

Yeah

[vestal escarp]

No i need to rephrase that

[keen dome]

BP is a relic of an older design approach that modern Sub doesn't need.

It felt good, imo, coming from BfA -> SL because we had proper ST and AoE damage buttons. But now, with Trickster.. We don't need it. And the SS energy increase and with BP hitting so small, it just doesn't actually do anything for our profile or be fun to push.

[vestal escarp]

Given the chance to choose between flurry and pad dmg you would never make the latter choice

Surv hunter is already suffering that

Looks good on details but absolutely criminal dmg profile

[keen dome]

Looking good on details is half the fight.

But yeah, I agree with you.

[vestal escarp]

It's even less

[keen dome]

I would like to see them do something more with Dark Brew. Symbols stuff has worked out so good but now we can't really take that node. So.. I dunno. It fits so well with DS, but we're not going to give up Rotten / Symbols for it I assume?

[vestal escarp]

The right side of the tree needs dance interaction

Symmetrically to how the left side has sod interaction

[keen dome]

Yeah, that'd be interesting.

I'd also like to see PV and LS go away for more interesting things.

[vestal escarp]

If you feel smart you could try to change right side talents and push them into a more sustained profile, friendly for keys, around dance uptime

That would interact with DS more

Idk

Leave trickster as the gigabursty option

Like aldrachi and felscarred duality

Idk

Just typing random shit

Cough cough

[gritty knot]

Oh dear...I was so excited to see sub being listed in the notes only to find out they just don't give a damn about this spec. They don't listen, they don't fix bugs. And it clearly seems they actually don't even have an understanding of this spec at all by the way they approached this. Trickster gameplay is nice and refreshing, got positive feedback and instead of finally fixing some bugs or buff it a bit for better m+ balance, they go back to old patterns and just buff the other hero talent tree which nobody wants to play anyway and has boring gameplay. Back to BP Spam I guess...Fk that in all seriousness. This whole Season 1 their "approach" to balancing stuff etc is just a big joke

[keen dome]

That's not true that they don't 'don't give a damn' though. The 11.0.5 stuff turned out to be pretty damn good. They could still be fixing stuff and it's just not listed.

[gritty knot]

Yes, by the time they ll fix the RS bug I ll propably be in my 40s

[gritty knot]

It was actually, yes. For the first in a long time. But like I said, now they are back to old habits with this one. Atleast that's my opinion about this new notes.

[keen dome]

I'd rather see some proper fixing / changes to make it fun to play. But turning the damage knob is probably a bandaid more than a proper, long-term solution. I also don't think we'll ever be spamming BP in content again unless they nerf nimble flurry for trickster.

Not the best, but not really something to doom over imo. We're in a decent spot right now and that's pretty cool.

I think the comedy option of them continually buffing it and then fixing stuff is pretty funny to think about, too. For one golden day, we'll be the meta.

[gritty knot]

Imagine a time when u que for higher keys as assa or outlaw getting 99,99% of the time insta declined but instant invited as sub

We can only dream of that day 😂

[keen dome]

It'll happen. Someday.. Some glorious moment.

[gritty knot]

"Can u pls play sub in this key since it's op af"

[keen dome]

[gritty knot]

I was there in WoD tho with the legendary ring and the explosion trinket. The golden era of sub

[keen dome]

Haha, yeah. That was good.

[gritty knot]

Technically back then arcane mage still did more burst DMG but sub was nuts too. I had so much fun back then. Maybe one day we will experience that again 😂🙌

[vestal escarp]

we wont be ever be spamming bp again because of storm costs anyway

that stuff of 80% of your globals being storm->bp is over

[narrow shadow]

Arcane mage in WoD was good until you remember the arcane crystal dummy and RoP

[keen dome]

Ye, absolutely

[gritty knot]

Damn, ye 😂 blasting this stupid crystal instead of the actual target 😂

[vestal escarp]

napkin math after buffs: with momentum up 7cps bp is between a 6 and 7cps evis (if it crits)

we got divine storm

unforch

cause we asked for it in late 10.2

and stopped caring after 11.0

[keen dome]

Haha

[vestal escarp]

ow

the enha nerf

it's a sub nerf in keys

[upbeat dragon]

Hi all new rogue player here and having a hard time deciding between sub or outlaw? Is sub better than outlaw atm?

[keen dome]

What kind of content are you interested in doing? Because they have different strengths in different parts of the game. But at a certain level, you can play whichever you personally enjoy more and it won't matter.

[sick jackal]

so with the amount of bp buffs do we not press evis anymore?

[upbeat dragon]

Mainly doing m plus and maybe a few mythic bosses. I am planning to do rogue as my alt and goal for it will do to push this toon to 3k io as well and some mythic raid bosses.

[sick jackal]

if you want m+ i would highly advise going assa or outlaw

for me getting used to sub was hard in m+

and assa will olways be more pwerful

[keen dome]

You could probably do 3k+ IO as Sub, but you might have an easier time of it as Assa / Outlaw. Assa is in more of a 'meta' spot but I'm not sure how good Outlaw is for M+ atm, although I imagine it's pretty damn fine. For raid content, I'd personally recommend Sub but it's the more complex (initially) spec due to some rules. Outlaw is probably fine for early stuff if you play well? I imagine everything is at this point.

I'd suggest just playing around with them both on a dummy, seeing which you find more engaging and fun and going from there.

Outlaw is higher APM, pushing buttons and reacting and blasting. Sub is playing around cooldowns and being aware of the why we play around them, and use something when we do. More planning.

[upbeat dragon]

Sure thing how is sub in m plus tho? The spec seems very cool to play for me so got abit interested

[keen dome]

Outlaw uses a Sword MH and anything OH. Assa / Sub require a Dagger MH and OH, if that matters to you.

[sharp kernel]

How big is the sub buffs for keys?

[keen dome]

I personally think it's in a very good spot right now. We have people in here who are far past 3k .io so it's absolutely viable, albeit perception in-game may differ. It's very strong boss damage and 'okay' trash damage. But you have to play it well to get the most out of it. Mistakes cost a lot of damage, and bad pulling by a tank also cost us a lot of damage.

It's a lot of fun dropping a huge SecTec on stuff. I am not a pusher, though. I do my 10's and maybe some 11's and then get lazy. Hopefully someone more experienced in the 3k range can offer insight

[upbeat dragon]

I guess i will have the same problem i had with my frost dk then as tank not playing around my cd🤣. But for sure i will try it out and thank you so much for answering

[keen dome]

Best thing is to try both, see how it goes. They're very different.

[scarlet heath]

you guys were joking about another Black Powder damage buff but it actually happened I can't

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sinful sluice]

am i the only one who feels like court is impossible to beat

[vagrant sigil]

How so ?

[vale pine]

deathstalker buffs

[sinful sluice]

weve been doing court for like 3 hrs and cant even get to blocking first dash

[vagrant sigil]

What's wiping you?

[sick jackal]

if your doing the strech good luck mate

[vale pine]

my quick opinion

I think the dev team should look at the problem space instead of to use the phrase they like "kingmaking"

It is unclear if they bugfix deathstalkers mark too,
because that's the main reason why we played trickster over deathstalker on single target

[upper narwhal]

if ds is still bugged but better performing it's gonna be so ass

[fathom gazelle]

where can i check rogue specs sims?

[upper narwhal]

also fix replicating shadows please god

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fathom gazelle]

ty

[stone patrol]

wait is Sub back?

[vale pine]

it was already before

but the change is a buf

[stone patrol]

so it could be to swap from sin to sub in m+?

[sly shore]

Definitely not lmao

[lilac stag]

I feel like this is the second coming of shuriken nerf. Finally had something nice and they go fuck off with that.

[gleaming geyser]

If your a fotm player stay away from sub, stick to sin ^^

Why do they desperately want us to use an aoe BP build while inside deathstalker single target build? QQ

[lilac stag]

There’s like 80 of us on wcl. Just let us be happy little tricksters.

[gleaming geyser]

Exactly 😄

[lilac stag]

Delulu. Both hero talents must be options, while at the same time dealing with the shit bugs & bandaid fixes.

[sly shore]

it would have to be like 5% behind assa aoe

to be considered

[gleaming geyser]

Btw do you guys get a bug with vanish where you cant use shadowstrike some times and have to use a backstab?

[lilac stag]

You took damage, or hit strike too soon after vanish.

[winter python]

!tea

[wicked jolt]

Thistle tea use:
It is recommended to macro Thistle Tea with Shadow Dance like this:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```

[winter python]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns.
The following macros are an exception:yaml /cast Cold Blood /cast Secret Technique

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[sharp kernel]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/o1LFWGfwWF3mf1e7wPyomL How bad/ good is Fractured gemstone locket? The sims say it's great, but i'm running blessed grip as my first embel. thoughts?

[bitter dagger]

It's 0 zero value as it's "heal an ally". it's simming the same as a regular crafted necklace.

[sharp kernel]

So just craft a neck and throw a good sounding embel maybe? I'll sim dungeons and see what I find to farm outta there

It's gonna mega value it for sure

[bitter dagger]

!embel

[lilac stag]

there are no good embellishments. They’re all meh

[sharp kernel]

cause the one I have are 580 or smthn

[bitter dagger]

!emb

[sharp kernel]

Bet

[lilac stag]

Focusing

[sharp kernel]

can focusing go on jewelry?

[bitter dagger]

Think so but don't quote me. I know it can go on wep/cloak/bracers etc

[lilac stag]

it can.

[sharp kernel]

I can check rq Ig

oh

sick

[lilac stag]

raidbots will tell you what the enb options are

[sharp kernel]

I didn't see any on the droptimizer

[lilac stag]

add it in top gear. Hit the +

[sharp kernel]

Oh true

[abstract skiff]

has anyone had a weird bug lately where you cant enter stealth but absolutly everything else works fine and theres no error message? also it seems to fix itself after you vanish

[unborn geyser]

Do we know how competitive sub will be vs assa in m+ after the buff yet?

[vale pine]

sub is already good in m+, its just not op in aoe

the buff probably won't make sub the go to

[tribal blade]

stealth has always been a buggy mess, stuff messes up sometimes

[tribal blade]

it will not be overtaking sin

but who knows, sometimes we don't expect things to be that big but in reality they're way more than anticipated

[hazy breach]

Even if deathstalker turns out to be theoretically better in keys than current trickster

Its probably not gonna end up like that in practice for most people

[lilac stag]

I’m curious what trickster target count for BP hits

[tribal blade]

i agree

[vestal escarp]

like what would you even run

there's no way

silent storm DB no perception?

[tribal blade]

maybe not silent storm again

you know i remember the last time DS got buffed and we were trying it out most of the top sub rogues at the time kept using trickster

i imagine it would just be run trickster always as usual, except we can swap to using BP at lower target counts

i'm guessing above 7 you start using BP maybe

could be lower

[vestal escarp]

you can even now it's just that theres no FW up

you're barely pressing storm

[tribal blade]

using BP as trickster feels absolutely horrendous

can't storm to BP in dance

[vestal escarp]

just let the enha nuke the smallies until it's 8 left

[tribal blade]

if they reworked/baked shadowed finishers into our finishers that would solve that issue

[vestal escarp]

but as trickster

why would you wanna lose dmg on the big guy

at least ds has the singular focus cope

[tribal blade]

yeah it's all weird

[lilac stag]

Have to figure out what to run on Ovi Tuesday

[tribal blade]

they created a tuning mess they can't figure out with our hero trees

[vestal escarp]

good intentions, wrong incentives to run DS

[lilac stag]

a great place to start would be fixing bugs

but someone has a hardon for BP spam

While forgetting storm energy is cancer

[vestal escarp]

yeah the spam is dead

they're just trying to keep the button relevant

[lilac stag]

someone worked really hard on the purple fart animation.

[upper narwhal]

shuriken storm eats energy like it's a spell ripped straight from classic lmao

[vestal escarp]

very puzzled sometimes

very very puzzled

when BP needed this tuning it was left alone for 2 seasons

now that it lost relevancy it's getting silly tuning

on wednesday your bp is gonna hit like a 75% power evis

[lilac stag]

Maybe I’m not awake, but is there even a way to get dark brew anymore without screwing over sod

[vestal escarp]

yeah you have to give up craft

[hazy breach]

If you drop inev its possible

[vestal escarp]

[hazy breach]

And go perforating instead

[lilac stag]

shadow craft is 1/3 pts needed

[short radish]

me. that someone is me.

[lilac stag]

sharts to you.

[short radish]

[tribal blade]

this mess

[short radish]

i just want to unga bunga

[tribal blade]

burn that talent combo in hell

[lilac stag]

I hate our damn tree

[short radish]

dont worry

11.1

they will fix it

🙃

wait no 11.2

as is tradition

[tribal blade]

MORE bp buffs you said?

[lilac stag]

I’ll fix it myself in 11.1

https://tenor.com/view/unsubscribe-done-no-mute-not-into-it-gif-10500330

[short radish]

bp will do more damage than eviscerate so the only time you press eviscerate is to consume DN buff

[tribal blade]

lol good point

[short radish]

@me in 6months when this is the case

[vestal escarp]

it's already on reset

[tribal blade]

man imagine if they did these BP buffs when sub was drowning in S3+4

[vestal escarp]

with momentum up

you can run this crap on patchwerk and never press evis (unless DN)

[lilac stag]

Cook up an Ovi build

[vestal escarp]

DDos your warriors

thats it

parse recipe

[lilac stag]

he ddos’s himself

Floorpov

[vestal escarp]

then no worries ig

[lilac stag]

maybe just run trickery and hit BP now

no parry goated

[vestal escarp]

you can look at hacha's sheet for dance timers and nuke worms with sectech

my raid is extremely ungrateful so wont run trickster on ovi for the rest of the season

get parried nerds

[lilac stag]

Not worried about that as much as singular maybe making it worth it

Stabwing & Lukadd about to be two happy sub rogues. Only ones running DS on ovi.

[clever delta]

fuck are we deathstalker gamers all over again

jesus cris

[glacial hinge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[manic island]

how singnificant are the changes

big or nah

[clever delta]

pin say big

[vestal escarp]

oh.... focus is plague dmg

[hazy breach]

Unfortunately theyre big buffs to deathstalker

[vestal escarp]

wonder if it got included

maybe the buff is only for fixed plague dmg like ctw or opping a mark

[manic island]

im not a huge fan of trickster anyway

[tepid trellis]

just blanket buff, all the nodes instead of just fixing the mark bug

[hazy breach]

Ye who cares about your spec feeling fun to play anyway

[clever delta]

sub ds on queen propably better now

[tepid trellis]

parsing wise prolly not

progress wise, maybe

if platform 1 is fine in your raid comp

[clever delta]

platfrom was kinda joke from start

[hazy breach]

I wouldnt swap though if youve been progressing as its gonna change your dance timers

[clever delta]

with all the nerfs

[vestal escarp]

will stick to trick for queen prog anyway

[hazy breach]

Since no coup cdr

[tepid trellis]

love them absolutely killing end bosses

turning them into hc fights

[clever delta]

progg is over

[tepid trellis]

[hazy breach]

Can they kill court too

[tepid trellis]

court is easy tho

its just boring

[hazy breach]

Not with new people

[tepid trellis]

eh it was fine

[clever delta]

we will be pressing BP everywhere

fun

[fallow glade]

can't believe only 250 guilds have killed heroic ansurek

[tepid trellis]

Kyveza was honestly worse for us

dmg check is such a joke on Silken that the new guy can just not give 1 shit about dmg and just follow his group around

[hazy breach]

Pretty much all of our Web guys got changed for court

[tepid trellis]

yeah okay

thats not it xD

thats like doing a halandrus reclear and changing all the bomb partners xD

setting yourself up for PURE misery

[hazy breach]

Well not changed as in we just changed for fun

As in people have left/joined the guild

[clever delta]

we changed strat for silken

now we play p1 webs like p3

[ornate current]

so the DS bugg will still not get fixed even after the changes ?

[hazy breach]

Since its not mentioned i dont see why it would be

It would be a decently sized buff

[ornate current]

can we start accounting for it in the sims at this point

[hazy breach]

🙃

[ornate current]

see no point looking at the current number and just adding the buff inc to it

[hollow spear]

What bug is that btw? Still the first stack getting consumed after proccing DN?

[hazy breach]

You cannot proc any marks while you have darkest night up

Which means you need to use eviscerates and "cant" use secret tecnique whenever its up

Which leads to your sectechs being later on in your dance which leads to less use of 4p and possibly not being able to use sectech in your second dance in your burst and/or needing to hold symbols

Or use a symbols without supercharging sectech

What you want to have happen every time is for your supercharger to buff darkest night and sectech

But due to the way the marks work thats only really possible by either doing nothing for way to long when you reach the exact amount of stacks you want to be at or backstabbing more while holding flag&blades for a while

Theres just a whole lot of friction and moments where you need to choose between two bad options rather than having a good one as deathstalker

[hollow spear]

Yeah that sounds horrible

[hazy breach]

Its not horrible, its just not nearly as smooth as trickster is

[sinful sluice]

Is there a good guide for mythic court?

Seriously having hard time understanding it tho

[left ledge]

These DS buffs are fucking stupid

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/baby-yoda-i-hate-it-here-bye-im-leaving-gif-21233176

[vale pine]

deathstalker stinks

[spark tusk]

IT'S NOT OVER THERE'S STILL TIME FOR OTHER CHANGES TO BE ANNOUNCED

[left ledge]

Holy cope

[vale pine]

surely

[spark tusk]

I mean like w/e

trickster wasn't changed and trickster is great

So I'm just going to continue to ignore ds

[sick jackal]

if they just fix ds instead of buffing it spec will be in a good spot

[dreamy badger]

quick question, disregarding that everybody hates ds sub, could it be good in m+ now? or is trickster still better

no numbers just guessing

hm

[hazy breach]

On big pulls ye its probably better than trickster

But you also end up using eviscerates a lot without any form of cleave, which feels bad, despite it doing decent damage

[hollow snow]

the bugs too

[dreamy badger]

i see

[hollow snow]

are just so tilting

[hazy breach]

Numerically its probably good, its just that everything about the tree besides darkest night is just an eranog/ansurek ring

[hollow snow]

wow

thats a good analogly Eleem

analogy*

[hazy breach]

Like clear the witnesses has no interaction with anything else that buffs shuriken storm, the crit damage or chance from momentum of despair doesnt work with it, silent storm doesnt work with it, imp shuriken storm doesnt work with it

And thats intentional since ctw is damage added ontop of storm, not actually buffing storm

[hollow snow]

[vale pine]

yes, but deathstalker does get buffed quite a bit

[spark tusk]

🙉

I can't hear you you can't hurt me

[hollow snow]

gonna try it on sikran next reset

maybe cope maybe not

[hazy breach]

And like the numerical increase from corrupt the blood on rupture could be the same as flawless stacks buffing rupture.
But it wouldnt benefit from rupture increases like replicating or tier, which just makes it feel worse despite doing the exact same thing

[warm marlin]

At least for assa the auto attack one being like 6% of your damage is insane

Such a dumb talent

[hazy breach]

Atleast it cleaves for assa

But ye its silly

[warm marlin]

Not sure what part of “hero” talents suggested glorified white damage being a big portion was a good idea

[pulsar locust]

ds sub best St spec for rogue now ?

[sly shore]

[pale burrow]

he fucked yall over

[spark tusk]

Soon may still be ahead of us

[hazy breach]

Ig we shouldve specified that we were playing trickster exclusively

[sly shore]

a month is soon surely

[hazy breach]

Pretty sure he just meant the supercharger not working bug

That was present at the time

[sly shore]

ah yeah ofc

not the long list of every other bug

that has been known for months

why fix bugs

when buff plague damage by 45%

[pale burrow]

[hazy breach]

So i can feel a bit closer connected to classic by having my auto attacks be a substantial part of my damage

[sly shore]

[spark tusk]

https://tenor.com/view/mongy-monke-monge-cute-cleaning-gif-27532745

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/gorilla-poo-harambe-flinging-gif-6037208

[sly shore]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/254170190621835264/1113105101675036732/dratnos.gif

[abstract skiff]

all 20 of us who still play this spec seem to be in agreement very interesting

[lilac stag]

this spec is forever doomed

30 days of fun

RIP

[vale pine]

deathstalker is okay

[abstract skiff]

is that the most positive thign anyone has ever written about it

[vale pine]

i think its gameplay wise worse, but its still fundermentally the same

just feels slightly meh

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[glossy turtle]

was abt to parse in top 100 for heoric princess, just to practice. but zerg pug just died. almost survived, but sadly dided :C

sub raid is hella fun

[lilac stag]

at some point realz will take the gun away from Fuu’s head

[vale pine]

exactly ^^

[vale pine]

i mean, i will just continue playing trickster

the patch as is, is already over

[mortal crag]

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue

[lilac stag]

Weird. Season still going on and we’re still progressing on mythic bosses. What do?

I’ll tell raid patch is over.

[vestal escarp]

at the end of the day trickster is strong so sticking to it is not inting

[lilac stag]

watches sims show a 10% difference in favor of DS after random unsolicited buffs

apparently ele got a ~16% ST buff from their changes. Lol

[lime wigeon]

So trickster Is still the way to go to?or Ds could be worth playing?

[lilac stag]

check back later

No numbers run yet

but considering they were on par in ST.

glhf

[vestal escarp]

whats funnier

[lilac stag]

Storm back on the table in ST.

[vestal escarp]

is that if it happens that sub DS goes overtuned

the nerfs will hit evis and sectech

punishing trickster

[lilac stag]

you’re not wrong

[vestal escarp]

[strange chasm]

Did we get actual numbers yet

[sly shore]

Pins seems fine

5.5%

So just times ur sim by 1.055

[strange chasm]

Got it multiply sim by 100%

[sly shore]

No don't multiply by 2

[tepid trellis]

dont try and come in here with math

who do you think we are?

mathmaticians?

bro im stoopid

[sly shore]

I'm kind of a braniac

[coarse nest]

Are you in shadow dance? That happens to me while SD is up

[oblique wraith]

Are we back?

[alpine wraith]

back to being sad yes

[glossy turtle]

how much haste do you need for sub?

[pliant topaz]

I will say, it’s kinda really funny that black powder does 70% of evis’S damage ngl

[tepid trellis]

aint no such thing

[lilac stag]

3% (Transmitter + Tier Gloves)

[astral dagger]

Is there any way to mitigate Brann pulling and despawning bosses in delves

[lilac stag]

Don’t tricks.

Don’t attack from stealth.

Don’t vanish.

[astral dagger]

Even without tricks and using the delve ability to pull not stealth

dude still just kites backwards eventually lol

[young path]

Is plague damage applied to all targets hit with BP or just the target u have selected?

[glossy turtle]

is the BP update now? or next reset?

[swift tinsel]

reset

[glossy turtle]

ok

for ovinax woudl you then go DS?

for big BP dam

[alpine wraith]

no

[swift tinsel]

pin still suggests trickster in aoe but all tbd

unless they tack on trickster nerfs I'm not switching personally

but doing that would be actively trolling sub

would really like to see more bugfix passes than balance

[vale pine]

the problem is more that the number on deathstalker might be high enough to switch

well problem is maybe the wrong word

but you feel forced to switch due to damage diffrences, you atm don't have

[swift tinsel]

if the margin is under 10% or so I'll always take gameplay over damage

perks of being an aotc only guild, zero pressure to min-max

to an extent

[hazy breach]

Not sure what plague damage youre referring to

[swift tinsel]

to speak to my earlier message though, at this stage in a season I would think looking at bugs or gameplay disruptions would be better for the game than balance passes

[lilac stag]

at this stage they just keep developing future patches and randomly throw buffs at any spec that isn't played by more than 1000 people

[fallow nimbus]

All of sub isn't played by more than 1000 people

[round latch]

bold of u to assume its that many

[young path]

I thought when u consume 3 marks it applies plague damage

I have no idea… haven’t played much DS this xpac

[oak solstice]

Hey i just saw the sub changes and ive been playing frost dk for too many expansions now. Was curious to have some general knowledge about sub and dmg profile. Ik for example that frost dk doesnt really have the highest overall anymore but we have good prio dmg. How is the prio dmg of sub rogue? Is the spec uncapped or is it capped? What should u expected in terms of dps in a nw first pull? How much single target do u drop in an m+ scenario? Are the buffs good enough to make sub rogue ok in m+? Since ik its already good in raid

[swift tinsel]

Sub is very good prio damage, we do a lot of burst in our cd's then chill between big damage windows. Trickster's nimble flurry is capped but is still quite strong, unsure how things will settle for DS until buffs are live

[lilac stag]

you want assa from the questions youre asking

[hazy breach]

These buffs have pretty much no impact on sub in m+ since the tree that got the buffs is very bad

[swift tinsel]

also depends on level of content you're doing

[oak solstice]

nah the idea of poisons is really unfun in my opinion i have / played on rogue 40 days but thats all in mop

[oak solstice]

title range, my dk is 3.3k atm

[hazy breach]

Assa completely dumpsters frost in prio damage

[lilac stag]

assa - top prio dmg. uncapped. top boss dmg in raid.

[oak solstice]

how far away is sub from assa ?

[lilac stag]

m+ meta

sub is just not as good on all accounts

except

for m+ boss dmg

[hazy breach]

Sub has good prio damage, weak mass aoe and insane singletarget

Assa has absolutely bonkers insane prio damage, strong mass aoe and weak singletarget

[lilac stag]

we all play it becuase we're hipsters and enjoy the gameplay until tuesday

[oak solstice]

so you dont drop any single target in dungs?

[swift tinsel]

for trickster no

[lilac stag]

nope, becuase you dont get invites

[swift tinsel]

bc your st cleaves via nimble

[lilac stag]

kekw

[swift tinsel]

lmao based

[hazy breach]

You swap one talent from the raid setup as sub

So pretty much no ST drop no

[oak solstice]

i see thats nice , the same as my frost dk then

i dont drop any st in dungs compared to raid

[swift tinsel]

pick big scary target, commence orbital strike

[lilac stag]

raider.io can't push numbers less than .1%

welcome to sub rogue

[oak solstice]

can sub funnel dmg like assa can?

[lilac stag]

not nearly as well

[swift tinsel]

^

[lilac stag]

assa has literally everything and talents that give you choice in how you want to play

[swift tinsel]

you're basically storming to evisc whereas sin gets energy flooded

[lilac stag]

sub has one of the worst talent trees in the game

if not the worst

we have more bugs than talent options

[swift tinsel]

tree isn't great, not everything works

its poop soup

[oak solstice]

u guys sound like that one time i asked feral druids for advice how to play - Their answer : dont play it

[hazy breach]

Not as much, you get some extra dance cdr so its a little bit, but nothing close to what assa does

[swift tinsel]

Trickster sub is incredibly fun

does great damage

sin is just better

[hazy breach]

I think sub is decently close to assa in certain keys like db, mists and city

[swift tinsel]

for sure

[alpine wraith]

we are quite good in cot

and dawn

[lilac stag]

it's an uphill battle. we got lucky for basically .5 patch where one of our setups actually became fun. blizz did fun detected manuevers.

[hazy breach]

But unfortunately the buffs arent helping since its buffing a hero talent we arent using and one we dont want to be using

[alpine wraith]

but others are not super bad either

yea only buff is kinda bp

but most people dont do content that actively offers bp as an option

ergo pulling 10+ mobs or into bosses

[lilac stag]

ultimately FUN is up to you

[oak solstice]

so this new buff is more or less only for the hero talent that no one plays then?

[swift tinsel]

yes

[alpine wraith]

well it will be played in st now

[lilac stag]

and no one wants to touch it

[alpine wraith]

but not because it is fun

[swift tinsel]

I played DS on a dummy for 30 mins last night and it was a very sad 30 mins

[hazy breach]

It makes deathstalker better on pure ST so we end up ""losing ST"" by going trickster for m+ again

[lilac stag]

i love pressing storm in st again

[oak solstice]

i dont have enogh knowledge to evaluate that but i take it since everyone agrees its that bad

[swift tinsel]

can't wait to scroll all the way down details to see fatal intent

[oak solstice]

so how big is the buff in ST is it close to assa now?

[swift tinsel]

Trickster just plays really well from a gameplay standpoint, and Deathstalker does not

[lilac stag]

assa will still be top dog, especially in cleave. it just funnels better

[swift tinsel]

plus the mark bug makes it feel even worse

[lilac stag]

and execute

[oak solstice]

lets say in a pure single target fight like princess

[lilac stag]

and a monkey can play it

assa better at dealing with princess mechanics

so yes, better

[oak solstice]

btw u said sub is capped to 8 targets with this talent build ( the fun one

[hazy breach]

I mean theyre already pretty close, its not like assa is massively ahead

[lilac stag]

how angry has FDK made you over the years when you had no resources or your breath got fucked by mechanics? welcome to downtime on sub which is anytime youre outside of dance

[oak solstice]

what about the unfun one is that still capped

[oak solstice]

yeah i can deal with that atm i hated it at first but rn i cant complain too much

just bcs of how fun the bursts windows are

[swift tinsel]

Sub's peaks are very fun so it def makes up for the valleys

[lilac stag]

now make your burst windows less fun (DS) and your non cd windows worse than a bad breath

[oak solstice]

tbh just wanted to play smth off meta and i wasnt decided between ww / sub rogue and feral

[lilac stag]

based on the WW changes, WW ez

but again, you figure out what is fun

for you

[oak solstice]

in single target for sure but they are ultra capped in aoe which is kinda of a turn off for me

[lilac stag]

we're angry bois atm

[hazy breach]

Sub is probably the best in keys out of all those 3

[vestal escarp]

15s?

[lilac stag]

15's KKEKEKEKEKW

Eleem when do you plan on doing more than 1?