haha yeah, i've been having that same thing happen
#subtlety
tribal blade
hazy breach
And I have no idea why
tribal blade
where i'm beating/keeping up with most shammys and dks
tribal blade
And I have no idea why
could be PI angle
but also could be not missing globals angle
hazy breach
Ye ofc but even then
junior prawn
Aight thanks 🫡
tribal blade
i'm guessing enhance played super min maxed has a very high ceiling of where they can go
urban ravine
not as high as it used to be
tribal blade
proc gaming
urban ravine
as i've said
tribal blade
is it literally just good enhances are filling every global correctly, is it that simple stupid
hazy breach
The amazing ones do amazing damage all the time
urban ravine
their ceiling is not that high
tribal blade
because of how fast paced the rotation is
tribal blade
ah ok, interesting
urban ravine
like adding second stormstrike charge
tribal blade
@hazy breach ngl i've been becoming a little tired of pushing, was considering quitting until i finally timed 15 DB today
and hope reignited a bit
hazy breach
tribal blade
lfg has been miserable this season
really, really bad at the 15 level
at least on NA
hazy breach
Its been mostly fine for me, obv depleting a bunch but it is what it is
tribal blade
15s don't even feel that hard is the crazy part
vestal escarp
from what i saw on eu, ilvl opened 13-14 to pigs
tribal blade
Its been mostly fine for me, obv depleting a bunch but it is what it is
MUCHO depleto
vestal escarp
so it's easier to find clueless players getting into 15
but it's a level for 0 room for mistakes
hazy breach
Im now in the position that theres not really many keys that i need that end up in the group finder 💀
Suffering from success
haughty mural
tribal blade
Im now in the position that theres not really many keys that i need that end up ...
yeah 16s and up are really rare
you start to need a team at that point
15s already pretty rare
hazy breach
but it's a level for 0 room for mistakes
My nw 15 actually had a full wipe with the 2 cleave guys+necro at 30%
tribal blade
but it's a level for 0 room for mistakes
15 ara
hazy breach
Yet we somehow still had 2 mins left
tribal blade
carrying the lock
hazy breach
Sub blasting on last boss fr fr
tribal blade
yeah if you blast the last 2 bosses the key is way faster
tribal blade
Ye warlocks aint great
this was the key holder and he was iirc like 2900 or something
but i was desperate lol
and lo and behold my first timed 15
hazy breach
yeah if you blast the last 2 bosses the key is way faster
Ye sub is just cracked for those last two bosses
Played assa for the first half and then swapped
tribal blade
Ye sub is just cracked for those last two bosses
i have yet to do a NW swapping out
was running my NW 15 but then the tank died on 1st pull
i'm thinking i should run a 13-14 NW and practice the swap out
are you using iron wire?
tribal blade
haha
sin does feel pretty incredible for the first half of the dungeon
and then you hit last boss
and everything is suffering
haughty mural
deathstalker is a pain there
hazy breach
If you pull mobs ontop of first boss and/or knockback the worms
The boss dps is cracked as sin
lilac stag
<@212854714197344256> ngl i've been becoming a little tired of pushing, was cons...
Have you considered taking up walking on Lego?
tribal blade
yeah pulling mobs into boss pretty standard
lilac stag
tribal blade
https://tenor.com/view/lego-walk-gif-26871810
AHHH PAINB
lilac stag
not as painful as keys
tribal blade
i have just had incredibly bad luck with lfg
lilac stag
Welcome to Na
tribal blade
yeah it's pretty bad
lilac stag
we hit the point of meta chasing and trying new classes
tribal blade
not usually this bad, i for real went through a really long phase of bricking every single key because other people fucked up
and therefore getting less and less invites
lilac stag
It’s bad because you actually have to know your spec
which isn’t bad in and of itself
Just not forgiving in pugs
tribal blade
i took some time recently to further hone sin's rotation
for maximum success chance
tribal blade
i need to make myself undeniable 😉
alpine wraith
i dont think i could push keys alone
tribal blade
i dont think i could push keys alone
it takes a lot of mental illness
the healthy reaction is to walk away in disgust
vestal escarp
My nw 15 actually had a full wipe with the 2 cleave guys+necro at 30%
idk, grups i get into it's disband at any shit
tribal blade
idk, grups i get into it's disband at any shit
this pretty much
vestal escarp
also it's the whole pugging is miserable stuff anyway
i had a few tries for gb14
playing without a trace
and before first boss if dont spam vanish on cd for IW it's always a wipe
ppl overlapping in the first 5 secs of my opener
tribal blade
yeah the 1st pull bricks a lot of GBs
vestal escarp
so then i gotta press garrote again so we dont wipe
but it's not enough so vanish and garrote
1st pull is ok
the one before drakes
pugs go into that full tunneled
tribal blade
true!
vestal escarp
first part of the key i basically just press garrote during IC and sometimes try to milk some dmg
while on premade run sin blasts there
tribal blade
i just trust the group to be able to think for themselves
and hope the prot pal gets most of the missed kicks anyways haha
vestal escarp
my last DB 15 deplete was at last miniboss before rashanan
priest held everything, full wipe with 2 pain charges and barrier up
coral lily
I was surprised how much sub actually blasts overall. Its maybe not assa level but i think its really good. It's a shame noone is playing this specc.
sinful sluice
is it normal to feel exhausted after killing kyveza
our raid team plays 12 hours a weak (6 on sat, 6 on sun) and i was motivated until kyveza but after that i kinda just wanna chill out
dont think i can kill court and queen
hazy breach
I was surprised how much sub actually blasts overall. Its maybe not assa level ...
Yep it does really good
hazy breach
dont think i can kill court and queen
Honestly think queen is easier than court now
sinful sluice
that's really long
yeah, after like 4 hrs i seriously wanna stop
tribal blade
yeah, after like 4 hrs i seriously wanna stop
don't blame you
alpine wraith
we are close to killing court now at least
sinful sluice
Honestly think queen is easier than court now
haha i hope i can try out queen soon
alpine wraith
it has more
but it does not affect the fight a lot
just where skein teleports
and second intermission
sinful sluice
whats the hardest part of court?
tactics, or is it just requires lots of healing/dmg like pre-nerf kyveza?
alpine wraith
movement and execution in general
tribal blade
court doesn't really have any damage requirements
alpine wraith
also lots of 0 recovery things
lilac stag
I was surprised how much sub actually blasts overall. Its maybe not assa level ...
Excuse me. We have feelings in here and are not “no one”. 
warm marlin
our raid team plays 12 hours a weak (6 on sat, 6 on sun) and i was motivated unt...
6 hours is diabolical work
alpine wraith
is it?
we used to do 10 way back
with a break in between
for weekend guilds it is kinda what you do
strong shoal
People love using the R word a lot
candid wind
Does Weaponmaster interact with Inevitability? Or is it per ´press´ of Backstab/Shadowstrike?
lilac stag
Top 10 mythic guilds raiding on Saturday and Sunday.
lunar bluff
aug +pi OP
alpine wraith
What were you going for hach? Top 10 world?
almost there but not quite
spanish guilds were funny
glossy turtle
What trinket do i wanna use if i dont have transmitter? I have skardyns for assa, but no other active trinket
lilac stag
Sim but likely slardyns
glossy turtle
Hmm, but it doesnt line up.
lilac stag
go play in LFR and buy a transmitter
lilac stag
Hmm, but it doesnt line up.
First word. SIM
alpine wraith
skardyn serum kiss of death are the alternatives
lilac stag
you get it at pull and 3 mins. Not ideal but welcome to changing specs.
alpine wraith
those were rought times
glossy turtle
I still have normal and lfr left. And i dont rly have gold tbh. So i just gotta get lucky
glossy turtle
you get it at pull and 3 mins. Not ideal but welcome to changing specs.
Would i just not use it then on cd then? Wait 1 min
lilac stag
Again look at the sims example apl, but sub only cares about CDs
And at 2 mins you ain’t doing shit
Sod/ SecTech, maybe. lol
lilac stag
that’s not worth a 20 second trinket use
glossy turtle
Yeye ofc, and i wont have dance?
glossy turtle
Is sub one of those specs where everything is so timing based that sims actually show the right rotation?
lilac stag
it has variance but it just depends on procs
Literally the suggested apl is in the wowhead guide. Raidbots will show you where it wants non standard items.
!design
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".
lilac stag
!guide
lilac stag
we pump. we wait.
If you like use on CD / full send. Likely not going to have a good time.
hopefully that makes sense?
glossy turtle
I understand how sub works, i just wasnt sure if skardyns would have good value if you cant use it on cd 🙂 but yeah anytime i get to swap to st build for dungeon im happy 🙂 nw is soo fun, assa until 2rd boss then sub
lilac stag
everything is a distant second to transmitter. If you enjoy the spec you make it work with what you have.
plush roost
Our kyveza kill dropped transmitter, void reapers contract, boots and regicide
What luck for me hehe
sullen hare
vale pine
oh wow, gz
kind bluff
So I don't wanna use symbols and dance on cd?
swift tinsel
only when you can use symbols or symbols+dance with sectech
kind bluff
Ah
swift tinsel
with respect to the remaining cooldown on flag/blades
swift tinsel
yeah, ~30sec remaining on flag cd
swift tinsel
np np
glossy turtle
everything is a distant second to transmitter. If you enjoy the spec you make it...
I have all the good passive trinkets, ill sim em when i get home, as well ad skardyns
plush roost
Contract went to the hunter 😦
vale pine
So I don't wanna use symbols and dance on cd?
no
grave abyss
If sectech comes off CD and you don't have symbols or dance available, do you hold sectech or send it?
or is this more of a "git gud" I should have been holding other CDs for ST
hazy breach
It depends
grave abyss
like say there's 10s left on symbols
hazy breach
You want to make sure you can use 2x symbols and 2x dances during flagellation+blades+transmitter as well as have sectech ready when youre casting flag
grave abyss
ah right, okay
hazy breach
And then try to get as many casts as possible inbetween those windows
grave abyss
so in this theoretical scenario it's fine to send sectech alone as long as it'll be up for a future window, otherwise hold
also, sub finishes on 6+ CP always?
hazy breach
yes
median nacelle
wild hornet
i just noticed that my flaggelation pot/transmitter macro only works out of combat
anyone able to assist?
wind canopy
Post the macro
wild hornet
Post the macro
i tried with those 3
#showtooltip Flagellation
/use 13
/use item:212264
/cast Flagellation
#showtooltip Flagellation
/use 13
/use Tempered Potion
/cast [@target,harm,nodead] Flagellation
#showtooltip Flagellation
/use 13
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Flagellation
lilac stag
You said combat. Is the macro on your stealth swap bar by chance?
wild hornet
You said combat. Is the macro on your stealth swap bar by chance?
i have the same exact spells on both
lilac stag
What happens when you press it?
wild hornet
What happens when you press it?
i just use flag
lilac stag
Is the trinket in the right slot?
Add a “/say macro test”
and see if it displays that
wild hornet
Is the trinket in the right slot?
okay i think the issue was with the 1st thing you said
thank you
glossy turtle
@lilac stag is there a way I can see the rotation? I just dont get how delaying a burst rotation 30 sec, is doing better dmg then not having to 🙂
lilac stag
You can view the html report or run a quick sim and see the sample sequence.
You’re not delaying the rotation, you’re delaying the trinket use. Effectively making it a 3m on use.
glossy turtle
So I use it with dance and symbols I suppose?
lilac stag
Flag & Blades
But look at the report
I’m assuming that’s what it’s doing. I don’t have 2m trinkets
glossy turtle
so I am delaying the major cds 30 sec.
is it the same rota If I just do a quick sim?
lilac stag
No… you’re looking at the sample sequence
glossy turtle
so if im using the trinket alongside flag and blades which has 1:30 sec cd. and my trinket has cds, how do I not wait 30 sec more? I am just dumb?
🙂
yes
I just woke up from a faaaat nap as well, so might just be missing the point
topaz raptor
trinket with flag at 0:00, flag at 1:30, trinket with flag at 3:00
lilac stag
Flag >>>> shitty 2minute assa trinket
glossy turtle
okay, I see. was just thinking it would be a waste
to wait that long
dudes normal only has zergs, im never getting trinket. unless someone wants 2k gold XD
lilac stag
pray for luck / vault
glossy turtle
ig so, but I mainly just play assa tbh.
lilac stag
then just roll with assa
glossy turtle
havent cleared it for mythic as well, only heroic. im 4/8 need to find a guild who is ready to clear more
glossy turtle
then just roll with assa
nah I dont like assa ST
lilac stag
I have to imagine your assa sim is considerably higher.
lilac stag
4/8 are you not doing heroic skip runs as a guild ?
lilac stag
why? If guild does it they can give it to you
glossy turtle
its not a good guild at all
hexed bluff
4/8 still not bad
glossy turtle
its a bad one, we havent raided in like 2 week.
I want to find a new one, but I dont have the mythic parses on rogue to do so
vale pine
4/8 are you not doing heroic skip runs as a guild ?
think everyoe does because its fast
umbral apex
So I’m trialing for a new guild who is starting prog on princess next week and they’re strongly suggesting I play outlaw as that’s what they see on logs. Unfortunately I’m not an avid outlaw player and I’ve basically only been gearing for sub this season. Is there a reason why outlaw is the preferred spec to play for princess atm?
wind canopy
Yeah, that seems very sus...
topaz raptor
tell them to get fucked
goofy ass WCL watchers
it's like telling a boomie to go feral
yeah let me just strap on my 639 agi polearm (????) and my maxed out agi trinkets (????????) and learn to play an entirely new spec
wind canopy
It can be a thing for HoF stuff, but since we're already out of that...
topaz raptor
for a marginal dps gain
yeah maybe if they were a bit more serious than recruiting for a 3 night boss that died a month ago
gritty knot
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
tepid trellis
So I’m trialing for a new guild who is starting prog on princess next week and t...
if anything it would be assa you should play
as it will provide the most consistent numbers of the 3 specs
pliant topaz
if anything it would be assa you should play
im pretty sure its just boss kill timers are getting super awkward for sub/sin so outlaws doing great
but its really cringe people with 0 understanding of other specs looking at a log saying u should play this
alpine wraith
kill time getting closer to 5 so we might rise again
but well not me we are extenging until we kill queen
lilac stag
Maybe it’s a test to see how they respond to being told what to play.
alpine wraith
not in sub gear no
hazy breach
But ye all 3 rogue specs are doing good, no need to be anal about exactly which spec theyre playing
alpine wraith
and guess most people cba getting a slow wep and haste jewelry
hazy breach
Most likely somebody that has only played sub is gonna do more damage as sub than outlaw
Even if outlaw theoretically does more if geared/played perfectly
alpine wraith
just explain with facts like those
lilac stag
Guilds on Ovi/Pribcess currently can be crazy try hard.
umbral apex
Gotcha, thanks for the advice guys. I think I’ll stay sub because I most definitely won’t be passing any trial as outlaw
hazy breach
But ye if theyre really adamant probably try out assa
lilac stag
You know what you can’t take 2 of? Hidden ovi pools
alpine wraith
i have died but it was like 3 or 4 at least
only 2 dont kill i think
i think i dont play cheat anymore ever
but yea ovi pools you will die anyway if several hit because of how cheat works
lilac stag
I was shocked.
alpine wraith
krangled ass mess
hazy breach
How nice of him
lilac stag
We’re doing 3 tanks and 3 healers. Hopefully done on reset. Getting to 30% consistently.
hazy breach
lilac stag
Turkey day hopefully doesn’t interfere
alpine wraith
yea we did 2 tanks 3 heals from the beginning
helped we didnt have to bother with las 2 sets of eggs
lilac stag
I think we’ve spent more time dealing with the WA than prog
alpine wraith
yea that is a pain
lilac stag
We just run 6h / week
tepid trellis
9/10 times
its not a WA issue
but a person issue
not being able to download it
cuz they are being stupid
and have multiple sets of wa's doing the same thing
lilac stag
Oh it’s 100% a player issue
tepid trellis
the pure amount of facepalms
i make during a tier
with how bad people are with wa's is insane
its honestly incredible that people are able to fuck up updating a WA
95% of issues with the northern sky WA is just a raider being a dumb mfer, using the wrong version compared to everybody else in the raid
cuz reading is difficult
lilac stag
Interrupt anchor isn’t working. Did you update it? No… link in boss channel please. ITS ALREADY POSTED THERE
native zodiac
there were some interrupt anchor problems for us aswell though, but you just had to reload the note
most of the time its a player issue though yeah
lilac stag
we had people missing them so I stated sniping them at 50% cast. Then they got pissed I was sniping them. Haha
tepid trellis
we had people missing them so I stated sniping them at 50% cast. Then they got p...
WELL THEN DONT FUCKING MISS EM???
bro id get so mad
-.-
glossy turtle
can I parse high in heroic without any consumes? just trying to get some nice parses for when I sign up for mythic, since my mythic parses arent that insane
well im using flask
glossy turtle
ok, nice 🙂
is it normal for ppl to log the runs in heroic? or should I do em myself?
lilac stag
Combat pots cost 50g. Do some world quests.
glossy turtle
combat pots, do you mean tempered?
alpine wraith
yea just get rank 2
topaz raptor
You might have to be kinda cracked for 99 at 630 with no transmitter and no consumes
glossy turtle
I just need to do some skinning I was told. for instant gold
glossy turtle
You might have to be kinda cracked for 99 at 630 with no transmitter and no cons...
I dont plan on 99 at all btw
alpine wraith
yea skinning is quite chill
glossy turtle
I am still learning 🙂
I have 90+ parses from outlaw back when mythic wasnt being run yet. so I just wanna outdo thoose
are the raid buillds just the same basically? only variance is going replicating shadows or not?
plush roost
Only variance is weapon master and TFD afaik.
glossy turtle
or improved stech
plush roost
Improved stech is a 6-8k dps loss to replicating. So depends on how much you care about the bug
glossy turtle
when are you out of combat for 6 sec in mid encounter?=
plush roost
Oh mb i misunderstood you, thought you meant variance from m+ to raid
Yeah subs pretty cookie cutter in raid it looks like
glossy turtle
I rly dont like that bug
the second I took it, it felt off. Forgot there even was a bug
and yet it still felt weird
tribal blade
and yet it still felt weird
if you track your sht you can see it happening in real time
it's pretty bad
glossy turtle
Yeah, im mean if you play perfect I assume that is when it cant techinally matter. but if its making you play worse you loose more then 5k dps
since you just mess up more i assume
strange chasm
HOLY MOLY SUB BUFFS
glossy turtle
huh?
strange chasm
tribal blade
the fact that they are trying to buff sub by making DS more viable
is incredibly depressing
strange chasm
It means DS will go back to being aoe probs
glossy turtle
wouldnt nimble just be better always?
glossy turtle
but that would be while using DS?
tribal blade
wouldnt nimble just be better always?
BP is gonna hit pretty fucking hard now
but this is annoying because nobody likes playing DS
glossy turtle
BP is gonna hit pretty fucking hard now
eeey. is this gonna make sub more in line with the other specs for m+ orr?
half comet
Only like 50% buff to bp since luanch of tier
leaden prairie
can sub be better than assa
half comet
😹
leaden prairie
i cba
glossy turtle
I still like assa better for m+, was just curious 🙂
leaden prairie
someone tell me 20% bp damage is mega hgue
glossy turtle
well not for ST
half comet
Hi zac i see youve made your way to the sub channel
strange chasm
It's pretty huge
half comet
How was your travels
steel zinc
BP needs another 100%
quaint lodge
You'd have to amp sub damage giga high to make up for the lack of garrote silencing ngl
strange chasm
On top of the last BP buff
strange chasm
someone tell me 20% bp damage is mega hgue
Not mega but huge
tribal blade
that means BP has had an overall 55% buff since launcgh
leaden prairie
Hi zac i see youve made your way to the sub channel
im tired of assa king
tribal blade
plague damage effects increased by 45%
strange chasm
Sub will probably sim higher in aoe
strange chasm
But now you have to play DS which sucks
plush roost
That is a BIG number
tribal blade
i didn't even realize till i took a double glance
glossy turtle
the ST on Sub just feels soo nice, compared to assa
tribal blade
45% big
half comet
im tired of assa king
Hopefully we can see each other here more next tier 😭
plush roost
Thats clear the witnesses too
half comet
Or in outlaw
glossy turtle
what is plague dmg, for sub?
plush roost
what is plague dmg, for sub?
Deathstalker stuff
weary saffron
what is plague dmg, for sub?
just read through the hero talent tree for ds
open vortex
deathstalkers mark + hunt them down
open vortex
i don't think its 'mega'
glossy turtle
so its more prio dmg, and more aoe? so its just an overall big buff?
strange chasm
45% big number
tribal blade
so that would be buffing mark, hunt them down, fatal intent, corrupt the blood, clear the witnesses
young path
thats Uge!
pliant topaz
welp fuck.
tidal python
Playing Deathstalker fucking sucks though 
strange chasm
welp fuck.
Trickster was fun while it lasted
tidal python
Time to play Trickster Outlaw as a protest
glossy turtle
buff = bad ? huh
alpine wraith
well you can do more dmg but have less fun
topaz raptor
Buff = bad
young path
tornado is back on the menu
always has been
plush roost
Idk man hunt them down is like 25m damage over a fight
weary saffron
more people enjoyed the other talent tree (or at least vocally supported it)
wind canopy
welp fuck.
You can't feel the buffs if you don't play with it 
plush roost
Thats an extra 10 mil
tribal blade
btw if you wanna go on blizz caring about sub, look at how these are 1 line changes
instead of paragraphs
alpine wraith
it is more than that mark corrupting blood etc
pliant topaz
oh and singular focus
dont think that matters. nothing works with it
alpine wraith
so now we go from deathstalker st again
pliant topaz
You can't feel the buffs if you don't play with it <:Smile:1215068700781182976>
holy fucking based
glossy turtle
well you can do more dmg but have less fun
why is it less fun? having to spread bleeds orr?
tribal blade
cdr and consuming DN is really annoying for sub
alpine wraith
being able to be parried the mark bug
also yea shadowstriking at 6 cp
feels criminal
in dance
tribal blade
it feels so bad
plush roost
No coup, no 10% off sec tec from trickster. It is a bit cringe
glossy turtle
so why not just keep playing trickster?
alpine wraith
you likely can yea
glossy turtle
they havent made trickster worse
tribal blade
well DS will definitely be ahead now
plush roost
being able to be parried the mark bug
Just run another sub rogue as trickster so nobody gets parried!
alpine wraith
well at least the FUNNEL
plush roost
They haven't fixed that yet have they?
alpine wraith
comes back
strange chasm
DS will probably be ALOT ahead if I had to guess
ashen ibex
i mean
alpine wraith
ALL THE THINGS
ashen ibex
do you think those buffs are relevant?
glossy turtle
SHOULD I SWAP?
YES INSTA, GET RID OF ASSA. DELETE SKARDYNS
alpine wraith
will still feel like shit to play
plush roost
GUYS IS SUB ROGUE META NOW?
Have you considered our lord and Savior augmentation
strange chasm
Yes they are relevant unfortunately
plush roost
11%
strange chasm
11% haste
plush roost
alpine wraith
crystal bad do you have ovi egg or knife
plush roost
Hehe
ashen ibex
so wait
strange chasm
How dare you not optimize
ashen ibex
give me some numbers
strange chasm
It's jover
alpine wraith
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
strange chasm
Hard to say with the plague damage 45% and what it effects
glossy turtle
Would love to see you play sub casual 🙂
strange chasm
And if it works on everything
wind canopy
They're probably working on the numbers right now
ashen ibex
Would love to see you play sub casual 🙂
I played some on 18 mists today
tribal blade
more fatal intent dmg pOgGeRs
ashen ibex
ye i would swap after 2nd boss kinda
tribal blade
last boss as sin feels turbo bad
glossy turtle
I played some on 18 mists today
nice! all the way through? or just first boss?
strange chasm
I think sub is fine in keys
alpine wraith
i have some numbers but they are REALLY first thing
strange chasm
With this buff it might out sim ass
tidal python
Delete tornado
glossy turtle
last boss as sin feels turbo bad
all bosses feels like sheit on assa (m+). ST is just pure depression. Just owing energy
weary saffron
spit em hach
alpine wraith
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3hRGEg6KmJAoSymfod4PEh this one but around 200 to 300k more
weary saffron
let us all react
plush roost
Looking at a sub kyveza log, they did 50mil total plague damage over everything. So like an extra 45% of that
glossy turtle
after beginning to swap to sub rogue for certain bosses, I just wanted to play that all the time ahha. Like the bosses felt soo much nicer
plush roost
Kinda good
plush roost
Hugeth
alpine wraith
aaaaaaaaaaaa
plush roost
D:
hazy breach
the fact that they are trying to buff sub by making DS more viable
Not like this
short radish
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
alpine wraith
yea it is sad
tribal blade
Not like this
i'm actually a bit depressed
bleak wind
but like, isn't the plague damage increase MASSIVE for single target at least
short radish
How the fuck is blizzard so monkey they just buff black powder 50 fucking times
hazy breach
It is
strange chasm
but like, isn't the plague damage increase MASSIVE for single target at least
Yes it's insanely good for ST
strange chasm
Like ST will be insane
bleak wind
napkin math says 80k dps
short radish
likely ovetakes mark bug
What is the mark bug?
bleak wind
kinda worried about that
short radish
I just know we don't play it because it's bygged
glossy turtle
dude this is awesome! for now I only play sub in raid, so its gonna be cool to get fat ST buff
alpine wraith
What is the mark bug?
cant pop marks if DN is up
tidal python
How the fuck is blizzard so monkey they just buff black powder 50 fucking times
Devs don't understand how the spec they made work
hazy breach
When you have darkest night up you cant get the damage from the mark or reduce it below 3 stacks
topaz raptor
pliant topaz
but like, isn't the plague damage increase MASSIVE for single target at least
its very large yea
hazy breach
Which means for example you cant sectech with darkest night up because youre wasting a ton of damage
short radish
Ugh
tribal blade
they're giving sub the slapping big % numbers to recently
topaz raptor
You’re welcome guys
short radish
Fucks sake
tribal blade
You’re welcome guys
it was YOU
ornate berry
Which means for example you cant sectech with darkest night up because youre was...
You fr? 
alpine wraith
yea
ornate berry
God I don't want this
alpine wraith
they fixed that btw
short radish
Sounds like this is making ds viable
alpine wraith
just krangled it again
hazy breach
Im assuming theyre not fixing any bugs
alpine wraith
and forgor
short radish
But we're going to just have to play around the bug
hazy breach
Like the darkest night not buffing shadow eviscerate
hazy breach
But we're going to just have to play around the bug
Ye which means you pretty much cant get 2 sectechs in cds
alpine wraith
or lingering buffing sec tech
tribal blade
need fuu's blinding optimism in here right now
hazy breach
Theres a reason deathstalker is underplayed
short radish
This is actually peak sub rogue right now. We get decent buffs and it's actually just made the class even worse
short radish
yea you can in theory pool to 14 sht
Delete this.
glossy turtle
well dont you think they are working on the bugs if the majority of players will play it now?
since its soo much better?
short radish
well dont you think they are working on the bugs if the majority of players will...
The majority of players will never play sub
wind canopy
Nope
alpine wraith
well problem is this makes deathstalker st quite a bit better than trickster now
glossy turtle
The majority of players will never play sub
no, the hero talent
tribal blade
Ye which means you pretty much cant get 2 sectechs in cds
imma bout to throw up
alpine wraith
you can but it is very annoying to do and not worth
short radish
no, the hero talent
Honestly ds sounds like so much effort that I'm not even sure if I'll bother
pliant topaz
Ye which means you pretty much cant get 2 sectechs in cds
I think you can but its legit the 3rd finisher in 2nd dance
short radish
It just sounds such shit gameplay
pliant topaz
u have to do the super niche thingy i did with apl to delay dances etc.
alpine wraith
yea problem is getting 2 in transmitter
pliant topaz
i dont think u can get 2 sectechs in transmitter though
alpine wraith
unless you pool some sht
glossy turtle
Honestly ds sounds like so much effort that I'm not even sure if I'll bother
if it makes such a huge difference, why not? maybe I dont know how bad it feels on Sub, but I like it for assa tbh. not taht big of a deal for me
alpine wraith
yea man try it on soe keys
weary saffron
report back
alpine wraith
you will for sure ENJOY
short radish
if it makes such a huge difference, why not? maybe I dont know how bad it feels ...
you dont understand
alpine wraith
it actively goes against you
weary saffron
it doesnt feel like it does for sin at all
short radish
you know how annoying it is to have to reapply mark/lose mark for DS as assi?
imagine that except 10x worse
glossy turtle
make me understand please? what is it, seems like there is something obvious. I would like to spear my soul for 5 dungeon runs
short radish
thats how it feels like to play
you can play around it
but it's just so shit to play around
you know how you have to hold DN for 15-30 seconds if youre going to be going down on NW boss
yeah it's like that
except you do that all the fucking time
glossy turtle
you know how you have to hold DN for 15-30 seconds if youre going to be going do...
I dont play that boss as assa anymore (on that boss). did 1 run, was awfull and just swap to sub after 2nd boss
tribal blade
sub has an easier time with mark at least because it's easy to reapply if you lose it
alpine wraith
apart from being parried of course
the most annoying is the proccing DN wheny ou want to sec tech and it also not being popped
after you apply it with strike
hazy breach
make me understand please? what is it, seems like there is something obvious. I ...
- Using eviscerate on aoe feels bad when it doesnt cleave, but you need to apply your mark
- Singular focus doesnt work with a bunch of things so its fairly week
- You dont have the 10% sectech cdr that trickster does, so you cant hit 2 sectechs with all of your cooldowns up in your burst window
weary saffron
feel like ill miss the coup cdr more than I initially realize
alpine wraith
you will do some silly burst aoe tho
glossy turtle
- Using eviscerate on aoe feels bad when it doesnt cleave, but you need to apply...
ok ok, that makes sense. But would DS sim much higher in m+ then trickster now?
alpine wraith
it will overtake it but
ornate berry
Blizz have one (1) dev talk to Fuu PLEASE
alpine wraith
AAAAaaAaAaAAaaaaa
short radish
Blizz have one (1) dev actually put more than 5 seconds into sub rogue instead of ripping off a bandaid and chucking some disinfectant on it
tribal blade
it would be amazing if they heard about all these issues and did something else to buff sub
but i wouldn't count on it
hazy breach
fixing the bugs with deathstalker would be a bigger buff than this
But i suspect theyre still here
short radish
why fix bugs when you can just apply more damage
slate basin
OKAY IS DEATHSTALKER GOING TO BE GOOD IN DUNGEONS
hazy breach
Also if i had to guess, its possible we just end up not running 2x symbol charges and go for db instead
With the plague increase
pliant topaz
- Using eviscerate on aoe feels bad when it doesnt cleave, but you need to apply...
flatter damage profile. significantly worse cleave. does worse when starved with dance since less cdr. darkest night bug / deathstalker mark bug making you have to play around it in the worst way possible. super paddy damage profile.
just big yikes
alpine wraith
you forgot trinket exploiter and auto attack enjoyer
pliant topaz
Also if i had to guess, its possible we just end up not running 2x symbol charge...
im not sure about this one tbh
tidal python
Tbh Trickster just makes the spec feel complete, playing without it feels wrong to me now
tropic pier
Why did everyone stop playing Deathstalker wasn't it winning in ST compared to trickster? I see 90% trickster logs on kyveza
short radish
Also if i had to guess, its possible we just end up not running 2x symbol charge...
okay yeah can we just all come to a collective and refuse to play DS
alpine wraith
finality is too noodle and does not help DN does not work with shadow evis
pliant topaz
I will say, this change makes deathstalker quite good for keys like AA/SV
hazy breach
Why did everyone stop playing Deathstalker wasn't it winning in ST compared to t...
Its not winning in ST and it feels awful to play
pliant topaz
and then u play trickster other keys
hazy breach
So nobody plays it
ornate berry
My ass is NOT swapping DS even if they buff BP 200%
tidal python
okay yeah can we just all come to a collective and refuse to play DS
Just like seemingly nobody plays trickster outlaw despite it simming higher
weary saffron
Why did everyone stop playing Deathstalker wasn't it winning in ST compared to t...
No longer winning and if it's close, not being able to get parried will win out
tropic pier
Its not winning in ST and it feels awful to play
I had played Deathstalker sub early on and liked it better than trickster triple dance (although I suppose that's gone now)
glossy turtle
Just like seemingly nobody plays trickster outlaw despite it simming higher
I mean that is cause of KS. its just a deathsentence
tropic pier
What about deathstalker makes it feel awful?
hazy breach
Ye early on the mark bug wasnt there either
hazy breach
What about deathstalker makes it feel awful?
You cant hit 2 sectechs in your burst window
pliant topaz
btw @hazy breach another thing about the bp buff is that it actually makes trickster aoe better too. u probably bp lower values
alpine wraith
so they decided FUCK sub
hazy breach
alpine wraith
btw <@212854714197344256> another thing about the bp buff is that it actually ma...
this one is a funny one too
hazy breach
idm the bp buffs
pliant topaz
i dont either. its just deathstalker thats kinda aids
tropic pier
Hmm is the sectech thing because blades was shortened?
hazy breach
No dust
pliant topaz
dust is gone/ blades is shorter
tropic pier
Oh right, I forgot about dust.
hazy breach
And trickster has 10% cdr on sectech
tidal python
the plague dmg is silly one tho
Now imagine if they make dark brew turn all shadow/poison damage into plague damage
pliant topaz
and coup is 5 extra cdr
alpine wraith
yea those 6 secs add up
glossy turtle
are any ppl raiding on it? on wowhead the suggested build for pure ST is deathstalker
tropic pier
I swear I remember doing 2x sectechs as dark brew sub without dust or trickster but maybe the blades window being shorter makes that not possible.
hazy breach
Yes
alpine wraith
that was because of dust
hazy breach
Because you had to wait 2-3 gcds inbetween your dances
But now we have transmitter and blades being 15-16
alpine wraith
also yea blades lasted 20 secs
hazy breach
So you cant wait 3 gcds
still anvil
are any ppl raiding on it? on wowhead the suggested build for pure ST is deathst...
its not?
alpine wraith
and other trinks did too
tropic pier
That's quite sad.
tribal blade
btw <@212854714197344256> another thing about the bp buff is that it actually ma...
MMMMM
alpine wraith
wait wtf
short radish
tbh im kinda okay with being able to press black powder more
alpine wraith
bloodbound DS now that is a wao
tidal python
alpine wraith
gotta tell when fuu wakes up
short radish
as trickster
still anvil
i mean those are usually build predictions up before the actual raid is released
glossy turtle
well when i started I only saw SIlkran and princess
as DS
might have missed bloodbound
but yeah this is why I asked, since its recommended for silkran and princess
tidal python
Just play trickster in every fight like god intended
tribal blade
right now is literally play trickster on every boss
glossy turtle
yeah I realised after checking logs
was just curious of there were some top parsers running ds
bleak wind
Well tbf you can fit 2 sectecs inside transmitter if you play it like trickster would @hazy breach
tropic pier
As in use sectech on cd and ignore the darkest night?
Maybe if you pop transmitter right before your first sectech you could do it, need to test.
bleak wind
yes
bleak wind
like at worst you are just ignoring one darkest night proc during cooldowns, which might not even happen btw
balmy anchor
all my homies hate deathstalker
tidal python
was just curious of there were some top parsers running ds
It's not objectively bad it just feels like 💩 to play
bleak wind
I am getting 2 inside transmitter pretty consistently without windfury
tropic pier
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
alpine wraith
i think i have the solution kinda too
on opener at least
instead of strike flag evis vanish strike rupture
strike flag evis storm stab rupture
hazy breach
I mean ye if youre timing your transmitter perfectly
alpine wraith
then you vanish strike and enter dance as you sec tech you get DN too so you empower both
then DN does not krangle on the second dance
tribal blade
It's not objectively bad it just feels like 💩 to play
i think it's an objectively bad tree
hazy breach
But when i tried im getting roughly 13s inbetween the sectech casts, which means to hit both sectechs you have a 0.7s window to finish your task
pliant topaz
I dont think u ca fit both sectechs in transmitter though even if u play perfectly
tropic pier
I was doing the transmitter task pretty consistently when I tried popping it prepull where the boss would be pulled
At like -5s
hazy breach
No i mean finishing it EXACTLY when you use sectech the first time
bleak wind
didn't feel that tight for me
hazy breach
Theres 13s inbetween the sectech casts
alpine wraith
ok im getting it now it is a bit reliable with that opener
but well sub has always been like this
hazy breach
So if you want it to hit the phys hit as well you have a 0.7s window
alpine wraith
those elite 1 sec times
hazy breach
Otherwise you have a 1.7s window
alpine wraith
yea phys hit will take a back seat likely most of the times
tepid trellis
also kinda depends on how many Shadowcraft refunds you end up getting
hazy breach
It kinda doesnt
Because youll be at like 2s left and need to finish with evis anyway
And again, ignoring the mark is bad
So we just have to make sure we dont get darkest night for when we want to sectech
alpine wraith
changing the opener helped me avoid the mark thingy
but idk it will still be annoying to play anyway
also witness hits hard after the buff it will be even better to use
bleak wind
I mean a single mark every 1min 30 won't make that much of a difference I don't think
alpine wraith
on opener
hazy breach
I mean a single mark every 1min 30 won't make that much of a difference I don't ...
I mean neither is getting the transmitter on your sectechs really
tepid trellis
I mean a single mark every 1min 30 won't make that much of a difference I don't ...
just a matter of what is worth more, the Mark or the sectech
gut feeling tells me the mark
bleak wind
naaah surely not
alpine wraith
you can get both
bleak wind
also it doesn't happen all the time
sour stump
i assume deathstalker still is not the play even after these buffs?
bleak wind
so its a good chance you don't have to make the bad decision anyways
alpine wraith
so you change things a bit
pliant topaz
gut feeling tells me the mark
it probably is. deathstalker sectech does not hit very hard
pliant topaz
its also consuming marks damage
tepid trellis
id prolly prio mark
pliant topaz
its also more uptime on your auto attack thingies
tepid trellis
that what my gut is saying
pliant topaz
its also 1 more cast of clear the witnesses etc
hazy breach
i assume deathstalker still is not the play even after these buffs?
Unfortunately might be on ST
topaz raptor
oh yeah ctw damage is actually really good
alpine wraith
yea the plague buff is a bit big
pliant topaz
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
pliant topaz
maybe i do some overrides tonight
ornate current
do we have the numbers updated ?
hazy breach
Might be tea time too
bleak wind
its like a 5mil evis vs a 6ish sectech
with good transmitter timing (which isn't all that hard tbh) you get both
tribal blade
Might be tea time too
dropping CB?
ornate current
Might be tea time too
please no
hazy breach
Ye cb isnt that good
tribal blade
sounds about right
hazy breach
do we have the numbers updated ?
No
short radish
get me out of this cursed timeline
tribal blade
oh well there is an upside to all this i guess, if DS+tea is the new move downtime won't feel as bad
(i am REALLY reaching to find a silver lining)
plush roost
Oh boy time to bust out the tea+shadow dance macro
alpine wraith
likely using tea to pop DN earlier in downtimes is better
because every sec you are not with a mark you dont get hunt them down etc
tribal blade
hunt them down is about to be doing stupid amounts of dps
alpine wraith
witness too
tribal blade
yeah true
alpine wraith
that is why in the opener might be worth to do that
alpine wraith
yea funny thing
formal helm
probably still a shit spell to press
tidal python
DS as a hero tree needs a rework honestly
formal helm
DS as a hero tree needs a rework honestly
deffo
plush roost
likely using tea to pop DN earlier in downtimes is better
Fuck another keybind it is then...
formal helm
but they're just buffing it to heavens to avoid that
and it's gonna bite them back in the ass
hazy breach
I told you guys they're gonna buff bp again
Ye nobody has a problem with the BP buff
tropic pier
I do... We need more!
tribal blade
it's the DS buff that's annoying
plush roost
How many more BP buffs before its DS in M+ and not Trickster
formal helm
Ye nobody has a problem with the BP buff
the plague effects buff is the issue?
hazy breach
Ye it feels kinda bad to play on ST
plush roost
Storm powder storm powder storm powder storm evis wheeee
tribal blade
DS' issues are nothing the tuning knob can fix
hazy breach
But in aoe DS actually feels really horrid
The eviscerate is just painful
Big pack with 15 mobs and youre gonna just hit one guy feels bad
Despite the spell actually doing alright damage since its buffed
tropic pier
Big pack with 15 mobs and youre gonna just hit one guy feels bad
Feels like assassination before caustic spatter haha.
tribal blade
maybe they could have included BP in the affected spells of DN
formal helm
and st is somewhat okay but yeah
short radish
Its designed with caustic spatter in mind
just put fazed on the spec tree, problem solved 🙃
hazy breach
Just like trickster is designed for sub and not outlaw
warm marlin
The DS mark is also just not super fun to play around
alpine wraith
well dont worry after that evis you get to do a 300k witness on every mob copium
plush roost
maybe they could have included BP in the affected spells of DN
DN Bp who does the mark go on tho
hazy breach
Your target
tribal blade
DN Bp who does the mark go on tho
your main target
plush roost
Hmm
tribal blade
that you're targeting anyways
plush roost
Yeah that could work
tribal blade
DS would be a monster tree in aoe then
imagine casting DN BP buffed by momentum of despair
fallow nimbus
The max cp shit needs to go too
round latch
Rogue
Developers’ notes: Deathstalker as a hero talent choice has been underserving Subtlety compared to the alternative choice of Trickster, especially in AoE circumstances. Black Powder is used far more frequently as Deathstalker than as Trickster and is receiving a sizable damage increase. Additionally, Deathstalker’s Plague damage effects are being increased (for Subtlety only) to better align the overall contribution of each hero talent choice.
Subtlety
Deathstalker: Plague damage effects increased by 45%.
Black Powder damage increased by 20%.
hazy breach
Max cp is fine
bleak wind
can't wait for assa to still be better in ST so it all won't matter anyway
round latch
assa isnt even now better ST
plush roost
I looked at a kyveza log, 50m plague damage total. So about 22m increase
round latch
round latch
I looked at a kyveza log, 50m plague damage total. So about 22m increase
that sounds nice
hazy breach
Napkin math has it at like +6%
round latch
Napkin math has it at like +6%
OH MY
alpine wraith
ok this opener seems ok man witnes trucks hard
round latch
thats significant
hazy breach
But you have to play deathstalker
round latch
alpine wraith
after cds it hit for 310k on a crit randomly too
hazy breach
Which is -6% mental
alpine wraith
man fucken discord not taking mkv
plush roost
Imagine playing sub rogue when you have to move out during your cds xddd
pliant topaz
eleem do you remember evis-> vbp ratio
plush roost
Yeah, but any time you get a mechanic you're losing cdr which sucks. It just didn't feel good while I was playing it
bleak wind
assa isnt even now better ST
but it is though
plush roost
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
round latch
but it is though
?
alpine wraith
ok getting buffed Dn+ sec tech on opener might be worth the hustle
hazy breach
Assa does better ST yes
pliant topaz
okay so evis is now 1.47 bp...
plush roost
ok getting buffed Dn+ sec tech on opener might be worth the hustle
Try tea next
Hmmge
alpine wraith
tea i think will be more important in downtime
alpine wraith
like s1-s2 df
because let me tell you when you have DN up you DONT want to have to stab for 7 secs
round latch
not saying I like it, but it just is
idk if u imply raid or m+ at this point and im confused tbh
alpine wraith
assa is better st most of the time in raid rn
unless you miss a cd use and get get more of them
like in queen
but still plenty fine
now tho
we might cruise control ahead
while having less fun
smh
round latch
ive called it like a week ago that im smelling sub buffs
alpine wraith
btw this bug of shadowcraft not working first global of dance is SUPER annoying too
hazy breach
ive called it like a week ago that im smelling sub buffs
Ye and this is probably the worst way they couldve handled it
bleak wind
idk if u imply raid or m+ at this point and im confused tbh
raid
cursive bear
hey, guys, maybe dumb question but someone can explain me why shadowblade is used after secret technique please ?
round latch
(st)
hazy breach
Buffing the least interesting part of the least interesting hero talent that people arent enjoying
alpine wraith
hey, guys, maybe dumb question but someone can explain me why shadowblade is use...
blades does not work with sec tech and also first strike uses premed so it already fills cps
hazy breach
hey, guys, maybe dumb question but someone can explain me why shadowblade is use...
Most sectechs damage is in the clones that spawn after a second, not the initial hit
round latch
Buffing the least interesting part of the least interesting hero talent that peo...
yp that is frustrating
hazy breach
And theyre not affected by shadow blades
round latch
but its something,ill take it
bleak wind
that would make sense ye coz on my smol 11-12s im doing almost twice the dmg
I mean in keys ye, you pretty much play ST talents as sub, its not as bad as twice the damage but ye I meant raid
alpine wraith
well now people will enjoy my tornado video more kekw
cursive bear
okok i see, thanks guys !! 🙂
alpine wraith
guess i will have to make a DS one too because that one is actually worth to use on cds
just have to stagger symbols a bit
to not krangle a shadowcraft
btw im still mad blades does not work with tornado
at least for 2t+
bleak wind
I'll compromise and go outlaw
alpine wraith
if they really didnt want it to be a st thing
grave abyss
hmm, I wonder if the plague damage buffs are enough to make deathstalker run dark brew builds
alpine wraith
for st you might run finality x2 and 1 symbols if you go tea because you lose lots of crit dmg with builders
but db is in conflict with the x2 symbols
grave abyss
ah, right
alpine wraith
smth like this
we already did some things btw and getting PV to get better pathing is not worth
short radish
alpine wraith
true also
or more like finality wank and db not good enough
if it had the power of DM
grave abyss
yeah, I was thinking you could get DB while still having 1/2 death perception, mb
alpine wraith
we cruising there
hazy breach
yeah, I was thinking you could get DB while still having 1/2 death perception, m...
You can, you just have to pick perforated veins
Instead of a good talent
