subtlety

[crystal rain]

trying to use it during window

is hard lmfao

[lilac stag]

You use it before the window and trigger during window.

[crystal rain]

ahhh

that would make more sense

i was using it during the small window

and felt like i was wasting so much time

[wicked zinc]

YI IS THERE CLASSIC HELP FOR THIS?

all sites are outdated

[spark tusk]

#classic-discussion , pins in that channel for other discords for classic.

This server is mostly retail

[wicked zinc]

where can i get a classic one

[spark tusk]

#classic-discussion message

[wicked zinc]

no one knows tho i need classic pvp cata sub rogue pvp guide and its all outdated idk

[spark tusk]

Did you click that link?

[wicked zinc]

ea

yea

[spark tusk]

And did you go and ask those discords?

Because this discord, especially this channel, will have zero information for you, this is a retail server.

[covert anchor]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[native zodiac]

We are so back

[alpine wraith]

oh nice

[native zodiac]

638 itemlvl

Gg season over

[round latch]

basicly yeah u are done 😄

[crisp cradle]

is crafting eng googles is good idea, or am i cooked
Thinking about craft full vers gear for some reason

[wide magnet]

are coup de grace stacks worth tracking

looks like it

[native zodiac]

Ye they are

[wide magnet]

❤️

[tribal blade]

what did you take? ring?

[wide magnet]

never take ansurek ring because rogue is second in prio for loot council

wesmart

[native zodiac]

Ring ofc

[tribal blade]

hell yeah, grats man

[native zodiac]

Im just missing sikran neck if i ever play assa again this season

[viral phoenix]

how feasible is it to get 2 sec techs in court damage amp window? does buliding up the scht stacks that stealthi mentioned actually viable for that

[tribal blade]

i got lucky and got a sikran neck w/ speed in a vault

but i've basically stopped playing sin in raid

and that neck is kinda dogshit for M+ sadly

[native zodiac]

Yeah im not playing assa anymore either

[vale pine]

nice, sub boi

[tribal blade]

hell yeah, sub only in raid now 😉

[native zodiac]

I got tilted i didnt have the neck for assa and played sub on our first reclear after the rework

And found sub way more fun anyways

[tribal blade]

agreed, sub is more fun

[native zodiac]

Supercharger is just the best talent

Seeing 4.5m sectech hits goes crazy

[tribal blade]

insane value for sub

the combo of getting symbols on charges and supercharger was a combined big change

[native zodiac]

Yup

Wish assa wasnt so dominant because i think a lot of people would enjoy sub atm

[tribal blade]

it is really fun to play, it does seem though the biggest complaint i've seen is the down time

[native zodiac]

I guess

I personally dont mind that

Only thing that kinda annoys me is the whole cdr topic but thats a hard one to get right

And ofc the rs bug would be nice to get rid of

[tawdry kiln]

Some ppl dont understand that... A guy left my key after 5min when he saw me at 900k on a pack (had no cd up) 😔

[tribal blade]

lol geez

[tribal blade]

yeah it's a problem, one that blizz doesn't seem to think is at all

[tawdry kiln]

1st time i see someone do that to me tho but it hurts

[haughty mural]

yea damage outside of cds can sometimes be really gross

esp for "not so knowledgeable" people

[vale pine]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[steel spindle]

What do I use besides Transmitter

I can't get the buff half the time it's unreachable or something stupid.

[vale pine]

any passive trinket or queens

[fair anchor]

This vault is a choice between myth spyglass or socket

[steel spindle]

i got myth skardyn with SPEED

[fair anchor]

I have dont have myth trinket so maybe spyglass but this looks so few of an upgrade i might even take the socket

[tawdry kiln]

Still no transmitter here ☝️👴

[tawdry kiln]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[shy ermine]

I didn’t expect 639 sac brood to be worse than 626 contract for sub

[alpine wraith]

yea sac brood is quite bad for sub

[vale pine]

[sick sand]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vital quest]

Anyone mind giving a bit of insight on Assa vs Sub on Queen. What's the strengths that sub brings that there's more people playing in than other bosses

[sly shore]

sub does more add damage

assa does more boss damage

can play either

sub was also better before silken tomb changes in p1

[hybrid bluff]

sub just oneshots the roots on Queen like the roots on Tindral lol

[vale pine]

sub is rly good on queen

does not mean sin is bad

[tribal blade]

fun thing happened on silken prog

i stepped the boss after she tp'd away at the exact moment our veng dh lept over to her

and i assassinated him

[vale pine]

lol

[barren tree]

is there only one craftable ring?

[alpine wraith]

yea

the other one is an embellish one

[barren tree]

oof

i cant use 2 of the same ring right?

[alpine wraith]

yea you cant

but for sub you can get the boe ring

it is quite cheap

and very good

[barren tree]

370k for the mythic version 😦

[lilac stag]

Get the heroic then. It’s likely a ~9k dps difference between the versions

[vale pine]

11.0.7 also will give you a ring

so its not bad if you only use one crafted

[uncut socket]

has a release date for 0.7 been announced yet?

[native zodiac]

pretty sure shadowstep is coded as a realy quick charge if im not mistaken @vale pine can maybe have more insight on this though, so if someone of the other colour is between you and the boss you blow up

[vale pine]

no

[vale pine]

shadowstep is a teleport

so you can avoid getting hit by using it

[native zodiac]

hm realy

[tribal blade]

oh no i landed pretty much exactly where he did haha

[native zodiac]

maybe it was something else then

[tribal blade]

at the exact same microsecond

[native zodiac]

ah thats unlucky

[tribal blade]

yeah can't step that boss during that transition

[native zodiac]

so i thought that might be it

[tribal blade]

ahh interesting

[tepid trellis]

Yeah step is an instant TP

compared to something like lock portal og mage blinks

[tribal blade]

yeah we had some fucky stuff where people were killing each other while not hitting each other

[tepid trellis]

which actually counts as a dash

[vale pine]

the coup de grace charge is a charge

[tribal blade]

coup charge /vomit

[steel zinc]

Every 100 times it will kill u

[vale pine]

only 100 times

damn

[steel zinc]

1% Chance

[tribal blade]

i got very lucky with coup charge the last time it almost killed me

it was like jesus parting the red sea

i somehow avoided every single mechanic and lived

wait that was moses

[tepid trellis]

coup killed me twice

on Ansurek

but those are also the only two times ive died to it

[tribal blade]

yeah same, i haven't actually died to coup that many times

[alpine wraith]

i died on monday it charmed me through 4 blue orbs

on second intermission

i have died more to sepsis tp

i try to be more careful with coup

[tribal blade]

i watched zero's silken pov and did the same thing he has to have TTS on the orb stacks

and it's saved my life a few times now

[native zodiac]

Man

The first time coup yoink me out of the air i didnt even know what happened

[alpine wraith]

wev blade or other things?

[native zodiac]

The 2nd i realised

[tepid trellis]

once to web blades

once to circle

getting yoinked back down

[tribal blade]

did you hit a circle and spawn the ring

oh right

[alpine wraith]

if you are in the air

but coup down

you get rinsed

[short radish]

careful shadowstepping through - it counts as a charge

so you can assi people

[tribal blade]

you say that like it's a bad thing 😉

[native zodiac]

This is what i thought too

But fuu said its a tp

So im not sure now

[short radish]

i have 100% assassinated someone

[short radish]

best part of this boss is when a wipe is called

you can pick someone to kill on the other team

[tribal blade]

EXACTLY

[sly shore]

!FUU

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vestal escarp]

Popping mates with betrayal doesnt fuck up your armor

And you save some golds on repair

It's a legit strat

[hallow sigil]

Does that spreadsheet mean that theoretically outlaw is the best spec in m+ and raid rn DMG wise?

Or am I reading this wrong

[hazy breach]

If there was any 5 minute fights without mechanics yes

But thats not really the case

[hallow sigil]

I guess same goes for m+. But it does seem that all 3 should be at least somewhat decent

[mystic bough]

My queen mandate sims lower than void reapers contract, but isn't queen mandate way better?

[hazy breach]

No

[gleaming geyser]

Is there something to prevent macros casting symbols when its already up?

[mystic bough]

Damn, thought that would sim way better. So it's just better to use void reaper than queen mandate even for raids? With the queen mandate equipped it's -2.464

[hazy breach]

It definitely shouldnt be that far behind

Its like 0.3% worse or something

[hazy breach]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[hazy breach]

But no not when its up, you want to cast it while its up sometimes, this is just for the initial press

[gleaming geyser]

I suppose so, I'll just remove it from my Shadow Blades macro as its not reliable

[tribal blade]

we have a ton of damage in cds now, so trinkets with more stats are better for your non-transmitter

[lilac stag]

and agility be a useful stat, which people seem to forget contract has

[idle aurora]

Anyone having funky stuff since yesterday? We were running 10s and 11s and in multiple groups different tanks people were ripping aggro deep into fights

I pulled aggro on tree 2 mins into fight on Mists lol

We had a paladin rip aggro in grim butthole off tank while I was tricking tank 8 seconds into fight

[lilac stag]

our paladin had threat issues on Ovi but who knows

couldn’t hold spiders to save his life

they def did some minor updates, but who knows to what. Ovi eggs can be walked through now instead of being a wall.

[gleaming geyser]

We had threat issues in a few m+ yday also but we did have a dps dk playing tank xD

[lilac stag]

@alpine wraith did you try crafting 2 rings by chance? Nothing I can see says unique. Tempted to see if I can make a 619 and have two, but I don’t remember how that worked in DF and if they let you bypass it.

[keen dome]

Which rings?

[lilac stag]

Earthen Crafted.

[tribal blade]

were you playing DS, why wasn't tricks already up

[keen dome]

They aren't unique, you can have two, yeah

sorry if I missed context but I am against scrolling up on grounds of being lazy

[lilac stag]

Nah it’s good. Someone asked earlier and I only remember DF rules.

[keen dome]

Binding of Binding is unique but Earthern is just generic

Can have two (My other rogue does)

[lilac stag]

fuck. Back to crest farming

I hate it here.

[keen dome]

[lilac stag]

The BOE is ~8k dps. Crafted ~9k

[keen dome]

Damn

At least we're getting 1 ring taken care of next month

[lilac stag]

and Ulg refuses to drop cloak.

[mystic bough]

Fair... well then I'll continue playing with contract. Saves me another on-use trinket lol

[keen dome]

Yeah.. He dropped 2 on my first M kill and I won neither

Although, to be fair. I did not deserve to win either.

[desert panther]

yo for silken Mythic

do u guys use cds and trinket at start

or at the charge stun

[lilac stag]

everyone else wants to special cloak

[hazy breach]

On pull, its up for the second charge anyway

[lilac stag]

https://lorrgs.io/spec_ranking/rogue-subtlety/the-silken-court

[hazy breach]

But also lorrgs

[desert panther]

Cheers

Gotta get to second charge tho lol

[tribal blade]

cds are pretty simple for the first 2 mins, you send on pull, use a dance+symbols on 1st charge, then hold everything till 2nd charge

[keen dome]

Oh, I hit 628 today. Two ilevels to go for my season goal 🙏

[lilac stag]

nice

[idle aurora]

Tricks was up

[tribal blade]

ah mb, i must have read that wrong

i read that as you casting tricks 8 seconds into the fight, when it's just naturally up all the time

i wasn't trying to call you out in a negative way or anything btw, i was genuinely curious

[idle aurora]

Oh no it’s totally cool 🙂

I never take anything as negative I here

Everyone always just asking or trying to Halp 🙂

[tawny river]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[fair anchor]

If you had to chose between myth Spyglass or hero track Mandate, you'd take spyglass ?

[short radish]

you are a poo poo

[short radish]

if you're planning on playing assi at any point

then spyglass

else mandate

[fair anchor]

I sometimes play assa when i self-shame myself after a NW or SV run 😅

So yeah cheers

[void hound]

does nimble flurry hit the acolytes in p2 ansurek?

[hazy breach]

Yes

Oh nvm p2

No

[covert pine]

629 assa rogue surpassed in dps as 591 sub 🤣

[mighty delta]

used trickster last night instead of deathstalker on sikran and nexus princess and wow did almost 1mil more dps, i obviously am more comfy with trick

[narrow shadow]

Do they play differently in ST?

[lilac stag]

Yeah. One doesn’t play like absolute shit.

zero reason to touch deathstalker EVER as sub

[vale pine]

well, you can play it for fun

so there is a reason

but damage wise, no reason^^

[shy ermine]

until they fix the bugs

if they are even bugs

[vestal escarp]

i wouldnt mind DS if Dn hitted for 8 times more

momentum of despair revealed to be a good talent

nice crit support for a no crit spec

[tacit aspen]

sub in a +18?

[lilac stag]

Someone swapped to it for boss dmg (most likely)

[tepid egret]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tacit aspen]

Ya for first boss then swapped to sin

[median nacelle]

what are best embelish for sub rogue m+ only?

[barren wren]

double lens

[median nacelle]

ty sir

[hazy breach]

Nah lense is only ST

For aoe you'd use dusklining

[median nacelle]

so one of each for middle ground?

both are important in m+

[hazy breach]

Nah just go dusk

[median nacelle]

the vers one yeah?

sure ill try that

[hazy breach]

ascendance or blessed grip is fine too since you probably need to craft a weapon

[median nacelle]

i have 639 wep, just been playing assa but im bored of it now

had a 3 week break

[lilac stag]

lense just helps boss dmg, which for better or worse is your specialty

they’re all so close it’s whatever

[median nacelle]

ya i figured it's not a big diff

but i'll try the vers setup

[lilac stag]

I’m tempted to try Vers in raid, but since it’s so minor haven’t been arsed to

[hazy breach]

Ye tbf it also doesnt fucking matter

Its like +0.2% at best

[lilac stag]

Running dbl radiant at the moment. Come on high roll

I do chuckle a bit with “bored of assa”. Surprised we don’t have more bored of it by now.

[median nacelle]

only thing that sux is i have normal transmitter

and mythic track skardyn's

= (

oh ya, what flask do u use? mastery one?

[vale pine]

transmitter is rly good ye

you can use vers

[median nacelle]

ya lines too well with big cds

[vale pine]

mastery is fine too

or the random stat one

they are all within low margins

[median nacelle]

cool

[lilac stag]

you could likely run dbl on use. Just line transmitter up with flag.

[thick temple]

Is alchemical flask not the standard now? My haste gets so low (2%) sometimes and I feel slow building combo points

[median nacelle]

ya could, but personally just find it annoying with x2 onuse

@thick temple dont think haste matters, its about ur big cds anyway - pool for big cds

not having energy otherwise is irrelevant

[lilac stag]

They’re all close. Haste means next to nothing. Our dmg is during cds. Not out of them.

and we have plenty of energy during

[thick temple]

Ik haste is our least important sub stat but my build is so mastery focused that I'm at like 5% haste without buffs lmfao

[median nacelle]

im 4%, u win

[thick temple]

I see.

[lilac stag]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[thick temple]

Holy shit faq response got me

[lilac stag]

transmitter + tier is my haste. lol

[thick temple]

This is my pretty much my sub stat lineup

I thought the distribution is meant like 50/25/25:/10 or something when I started out idk

🌝

[lilac stag]

dont care about stats. just sim gear. look for mastery/vers if you're replacing

[thick temple]

How come our omitted set piece item is the headpiece then? Iirc the headpiece is mast haste while the gloves are crit haste.

[lilac stag]

head is easier to replace with somethign better

and helm is haste heavy

[thick temple]

Got a myth dark visage this week in vault. Had to say goodbye to whispering mask 😭

[lilac stag]

gloves are crit heavy

[thick temple]

Ah true

Can you share your curr gear @lilac stag ? We have very similar stat spread

[thick temple]

Are you also not scraping for crests every week. You have 4 crafted items too 😭

[lilac stag]

idk what you mean

[thick temple]

Gilded crests. I still have like 8 upgrades I can do but I'm always maxed out

[lilac stag]

i can farm another 108 crests if I actually enjoyed M+

[thick temple]

And I only have 3 crafted items

Wtf am I doing something wrong

[lilac stag]

idk you should be about maxed up. I didn't use gilded on heroic items except trinkets

[vale pine]

maybe next season, dungeon pool looks better for it

[lilac stag]

looks worse

way worse

[hazy breach]

Meadery and rookery are good, priory probably ok

motherloade! probably pretty good if they do any changes whatsoever

[lilac stag]

ToP, Workshop FUCK OFF

[hazy breach]

Neither of those are worse than NW anyway

[uneven scarab]

Top good!!

true^

[hazy breach]

Cleft is the real curse

[lilac stag]

pugs can at least maybe finish NW

[uneven scarab]

Yup

[thick temple]

Hands 2/6 and waist 3/6 ://

[lilac stag]

idk i dont do math on crests my guy 🙂

[thick temple]

I thought using gilded on hero items transfer to myth upgrades anyway

Trying to see where I wasted crests wtf

[lilac stag]

mythic drop at 626

so if you upgrade to 626 you waste what 30?

[thick temple]

🤔

Fair

[lilac stag]

that's 3 keys

FUCK OFF

lol

also getting higher ilvl items you aren't going to use to upgrade lower item level without crests

we had very little leather at the start of raiding, so transmogs became minor upgrades

just to save crests

[hazy breach]

The worst thing is that 619 > 623 is literally always a waste of crests

Since you cant get myth gear at 619, but it costs gilded crests to upgrade from 619>623 for some reason

[thick temple]

Damn I've done that upgrade so many times lol

[lilac stag]

Heroic should only need heroic crests to upgrade. Just cost more crests at mythic rank.

dumb system

Make the 623/626 cost 20 or 25 heroic crests each on a heroic piece and zero gilded crests.

[keen dome]

I want to say: Workshop owns. But it owned when we had the affix letting us skip trash so oh no

[alpine wraith]

workshop bosses are kinda hard

[keen dome]

So sub dungeon

[hazy breach]

With current tuning ye absolutely

[tepid trellis]

2 ivls higher than me

[fierce minnow]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue

[idle aurora]

Someone make me better in m+ 😦

[vale pine]

practice can

[lilac stag]

first tier I’ve gotten lucky with tier in vault.

[tepid trellis]

i would be 635 i think if i actually played the game

[idle aurora]

I actually feel like I am overusing my cooldowns is that a thing in m+

[alpine wraith]

possible

[idle aurora]

Like I am pushing one last symbols and dance sectec into rotation and then I feel starved forever

[alpine wraith]

if you waste dance a lot

[idle aurora]

Like I can never catch up

[uneven scarab]

you’re probably sending too much then, or not getting like any cdr

[idle aurora]

What’s best way to cdr? Just spend combos right?

[uneven scarab]

You usually have two dance+sod with full burst and then another two inbetween

[idle aurora]

Ok yeah

I do three

[uneven scarab]

Yeah thats probably why

[idle aurora]

Then it’s a dumpster fire

[alpine wraith]

if you want i have full dungeons in videos

but tbh you do get used to

sub has kind of a groove

[uneven scarab]

Yeah its all about that dungeon experience

True

Sub got that rhythm.

[strange chasm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[strange chasm]

Pure ST situations you guys still using deathstalker?

Like Sikran

And princess

[lilac stag]

I’m at the point of do I run 8 dungeons to make a ring for 9k or do I do anything else

anything else currently winning.

[tepid trellis]

i just havent played since we killed ansu

[lilac stag]

reclear this week or break?

[tepid trellis]

reclear tmrw

first reclear im in

[lilac stag]

anything you need item wise

[tepid trellis]

anything myth track

items

basically xD

[lilac stag]

Hah fair

[alpine wraith]

nope all trickster

[strange chasm]

Even tho ds sims 50k higher?

[tepid trellis]

ds is bugged is sims

in*

so realisticly

its not really better

[alpine wraith]

the mark bug is not in sims

because we were silly and though they would fix

but you know

indi compani

[idle aurora]

Yeah I’d like to see do you stream your button presses?

[alpine wraith]

yea

[idle aurora]

I really wanna get good at this

At 620 I am getting around 950k overall and in some dungeon runs have gotten to 1.175 million overall

I feel that’s low

[alpine wraith]

well the diff between 620 and 635+ is quite big

[pliant topaz]

pc is fixed? pog!

now log into a good game!

https://tenor.com/view/hasbulla-lost-ark-gaming-hasbulla-magomedov-lost-ark-time-gif-24873159

[vale pine]

hello kitty online?

[pliant topaz]

im down

login

[wind canopy]

[red cloud]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1146207476983812117/1308622926291013745/ezgif-3-549f5018b6.gif

[alpine wraith]

danger

[pliant topaz]

I think you mispelled "banger"

[keen dome]

[glossy turtle]

im trying to learn to play sub for raid, is it possible I can get some pointers? :)https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/pn4vKtdg9MGWDwCZ#fight=34&type=damage-done&source=394&view=timeline

Any feedback would be much appreciated 🙂

[hazy breach]

You want to have supercharger on every sectech in dance

Youre missing most of them

[glossy turtle]

is that a big one?

🙂

[vale pine]

it will increase your damage if you do it correct

[glossy turtle]

Like is it my next 2 finishers will consume a supercharged point?

[vale pine]

basically

you always want to use supercharger on your secret technique

so you can think of the rotation centered around secret technique

so opener and every 1 min 30

you symbols 2x, dance 2x and secret 2x

[glossy turtle]

makes sense. so I wanna use it within 2 finishers when I use symbols

[vale pine]

and between these you symbols if you can finish secret within next 2 finisher

if you are close to your 1 min 30 cooldowns, make sure to only use cooldowns if you have enough charges of dance/symbols for the 1 min 30 cooldowns

[glossy turtle]

so I always wanna start out my dance+ symbols combo with a secret tech?

[vale pine]

well you can

[glossy turtle]

how many do I need? 2 of each? or just 1 of each

[vale pine]

symbols-evis-strike-secret

so can use symbols earlier than secret comming off cd

and get it with an evis back

but both is fine seret first or 2nd

just make sure it gets supercharger

[glossy turtle]

I would just try to sometimes get danse macabre up

which made me miss supercharger then?

[lilac stag]

@pliant topaz

[glossy turtle]

I also dont have transmitter though... I have skardyns cause I m+ with assa

for opener do I need all 2 charges of dance?

[vale pine]

you use 2 dances in the opener

and then try to use 2 every big cooldown cycle

[glossy turtle]

okay 🙂

and when it comes to build I see deathstalker on wowhead but I see like 99% use trickster on wowhead. is it better to use deathstalker for pure ST?

[pliant topaz]

a

p

t

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/apt-rosé-blackpink-bruno-mars-gif-1539050173426684783

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/apt-blackpink-rose-apt-rose-mak-rose-rosé-gif-17440988294150416254

[pliant topaz]

not after 0.5 patch. deathstalkers also bugged a lot making it worse in both single target and aoe

[wind canopy]

Not you too...

[pliant topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/rose-rosé-blackpink-apt-bruno-mars-gif-9491386110537128257

[vale pine]

i am not infected (yet)

[wind canopy]

[pliant topaz]

soon

tm

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/blackpink-rose-bruno-mars-apt-music-gif-9665460200365374521

[vale pine]

blizz trolling, look at the download rate

[glossy turtle]

I am also curious. if sub is just the worst in all raid scenarios, why was sub used for rwf? they must be ahead in something

[hazy breach]

There has been balance changes since rwf

But also its not worse in all raid scenarios

[glossy turtle]

how so, dont they loose in both aoe and st? 🙂

[pliant topaz]

there area more important things than 'does 1% more damage'

like subs damage profile on queen meant it can be really helpful in killing tombs when both sin and outlaw would be useless on it

or subs 'dance' sequences and 1.5 min nature, meant it could do really well on silken court becaue it lined up well with amps

[hazy breach]

They dont

[lilac stag]

Defensiveness. When health and healing was way more a priority.

sub is still relatively tanky as fuck

[lilac stag]

PTR?

[vale pine]

retail on eu, if you are logged in, don't log out

[glossy turtle]

isnt outlaw the same though?

[vale pine]

outlaw is also very tanky

but has a very flat damage profile

[lilac stag]

tanky yes. Does shit all for dmg with actual mechanics and has no burst.

shocker. Burst windows be important.

[vestal escarp]

ok

[glossy turtle]

just ran princess and had very good dmg, when I just did what you told me @vale pine was at like 1,5 mil when boss was at like 30% team wiped though since it was just a random pug I joined. But that was 1,5 with cds coming up

[lilac stag]

Fuu stealing 5kb of your bandwidth.

[vestal escarp]

give it back

i gotta prog queen kardashian

[calm rose]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[strange chasm]

Are shorter fights better for sub now right? Like we were killing silken before the double amp now

[alpine wraith]

depends

[mystic ether]

When you have Danse Macabre, the sequence is SS Evisc SS SecTec right?

[hazy breach]

No

[mystic ether]

Just Shadow Dance SS SecTec?

[uneven scarab]

sectech first finisher in dance

[mystic ether]

What's the reason again?

[thick temple]

How are you guys lining CDs in silken fight (h). I feel once the beetle is preparing the charge, the flag uptime just ended and I find myself re-rupturing the caster

[mystic ether]

Pull and 2nd charge

Cold blood should be up for 1st charge

[pliant topaz]

sectech helps you get coup faster, specially allow u to get it during dance. instnatly give u a 5% buff, give u 3 flawless formstacks to carry through your dance. it just does so many things that out weight the extra 6% from dm

[thick temple]

Yeah I can cb sectec first charge and vibe off that usually

W sod

[mystic ether]

Makes sense. Thanks!

[jaunty heath]

Unironically use a vpn while downloading battle net stuff, fixed all of my issues that happened occasionally, don’t ask me why it works, it just does

Works for everyone that I recommended it to

[shy ermine]

yo what are people cloaking on queen

p2 and p3

web overlap in p3 seems pretty good

if you get it

[hazy breach]

Roots, wrest, condemnation

[shy ermine]

what's condemnation

oh that's the web

ty

[severe breach]

Hello!

I'm new here and just trying sub rogue.
Sorry if there was already a topic I'm curious about.
The symbol must be used together with the shadow dance, but the symbol has 3 charges. How should I do it so that one charge is not wasted?

[wind canopy]

You're using two SoDs and Dances with CDs. Shouldn't be capping on three charges from there

[vale pine]

2x symbols with big cooldowns,
else 1 symbols for each secret

[severe breach]

Thank you!

[tepid trellis]

@pliant topaz

[vale pine]

nicu

[pliant topaz]

Am I seeing things or that’s an almost 1.2b hit?

[pliant topaz]

2.5???

[alpine wraith]

finish steppu

[grave abyss]

top damage: shadowstep

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/peter-runs-from-apt-rosé-bruno-mars-apt-peter-runs-gif-6445352379233301691

https://tenor.com/view/apt-rosé-blackpink-bruno-mars-gif-1539050173426684783

[gilded patio]

why isnt the pinned SIM link not working?

[lilac stag]

probably expired.

Wowhead has talents

Spreadsheet !Fuu has everything as well

[gilded patio]

okay thank you !

[lilac stag]

are you looking for raid or m+?

[gilded patio]

m+

[lilac stag]

Wowhead may have tornado for m+, we don’t use that.

you can swap around most of the other talents in that section. You want TFD for sure.

otherwise the build is pretty static

Replicating Shadows has some really annoying bugs that can be disruptive game play wise so some people drop that as well.

[gilded patio]

what do you mean by TFD?

the first dance

in Fuus spreadsheet, TFD is not being used

[sour stump]

We don't tornado? Sorry new to sub.

[pliant topaz]

not for trickster. turbo sucks

and is unfun and unintuitive to use

[pliant topaz]

because in sims u cant really restealth for the 6 seconds to get tfd value. in game u can. its better in almost all dungeon enviornments than weapon master (what u drop for tfd)

[sour stump]

We sectec first in dance now right?

[alpine wraith]

yea

[hazy breach]

You generally want to get it on cooldown asap ye

[sour stump]

And that is to activate nimble strikes in aoe right?

[wind canopy]

Fazed, escalating blade stacks, flawless form

So yes, technically gives you nimble flurry as well due to flawless form

[pliant topaz]

dude im lowkey retired too till plunderstorm ngl

i just do first 6 boost 1 day a week

the just lplay league/ffxiv

[wind canopy]

Yeah 😐

[sour stump]

I wish ff14 wasn't a cesspool

[alpine wraith]

i do 1 m+ raid

and trying to regain skill in osu!

[pliant topaz]

wouldnt know

im still getting through the story

but i have 7 other frfiends who are also playing it

so we are just gonna prog bosses together

[sour stump]

Lucky. Pugs are awful.

[wind canopy]

And yeah, the game just kinda feels not interesting anymore. Raid, key, log? For me, it was like a "What's the point of playing then?" moment. People weren't playing as much either and I wasn't doing like really high end stuff, so packed it up and moved on to better game.

Also, more time for PoE 2 when it comes out

[lucid jackal]

I mean thats the video game lol

Raid, keys, some casual roleplay content

If that isn't fun, then yeah I mean, don't play

[wind canopy]

Yeah

[lucid jackal]

I enjoy that wow is a super tryhard game, and now I have free time to play other games

Raids done, do 4 dungeons a week on both characters, raid, get some gold, do some casual content as it comes up

Means I get to play games like deadlock, Hearthstone, stardew, guilty gear, without feeling guilty I'm "missing out"

I get to raid with my friends, and then chill for the rest of the week

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[wind canopy]

You're also in a guild that you've been a part of for a while

[lucid jackal]

Yeh

My guild is my family at this point so

[wind canopy]

Yeah

Helps keep you in it

[wide magnet]

late reply for no reason but hold cds for the dmg phase

first charge on heroic is approx 45 seconds

so its fine

[thick temple]

So before first charge I just rupture n stuff? Maybe invest one SoD or dance/SoD?

[wide magnet]

ya idk the cdr on dance

im sure u can send a dance/sectec on pull

but you hold the second one

[thick temple]

Makes sense. Will try this week

[wide magnet]

also you pre-flag

[thick temple]

Noticing my court parses on always lower than my other bosses

[wide magnet]

because you want the mastery buff during the damage phase

[thick temple]

Like flag caster then go ham on the beetle?

[wide magnet]

yurr

[thick temple]

Thank you!

[wide magnet]

this should make cds line up better for other damage phases

but that depends on your group's dps too

[sinful sluice]

Is this any good for sub?? Or do i have to go play outlaw

I already have mythic contract tho

[lilac stag]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[rustic geyser]

you could only use it in your offhand as such which would be a loss yeah

[sinful sluice]

guess ill do some outlaw practice

[rustic geyser]

lol

[restive onyx]

So am I the only one that wants a total rework of sub? We only push one button from stealth, and slamming people in the face with shadowstrike doesn't feel subtle. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills as someone that's played since vanilla

[wind canopy]

RIP

[wind canopy]

What would you want from stealth?

[rustic geyser]

it's definitely a heavy handed take on the issue, but if you were to simmer down a bit I don't think you'd be alone in wishing for a rewwork

[restive onyx]

Anything that gives me a choice of buttons to push lol

[rustic geyser]

there's a slight adjustment in the spec that I'd wish for to make it more naturally flowing but I don't think it takes that much

[wind canopy]

I mean, if you changed the buttons, it’s just a masked version of the same abilities out of stealth

[lilac stag]

rogue is builder spender. If you don’t enjoy that time for a different class.

[restive onyx]

I would prefer more ways to restealth, even if temporarily, and some shadow clones like secret technique would be neat

[lilac stag]

What you spend is the choice.

You stealth with dance

[rustic geyser]

Is your issue more to do with the flavour of effects/skills/appearance? or the actual gameplay flow?

A LOT of people would agree with you on visuals

[restive onyx]

no, they just say you can use stealth abilities (which means shadowstrike)

[spark tusk]

I will admit it is rare but I have in fact cast cheap shot while in dance at least once

[rustic geyser]

^

[hazy breach]

What do you want it to do

[restive onyx]

It's not that I don't see the cd management that we currently have as what people would like, just coming from vanilla it doesn't feel at all subtle or stealthy

[lilac stag]

vanilla…

then play classic

[restive onyx]

Instead of just saying "you're stealth", I would like them to actually give us stealth. Combine that with more abilities to use from stealth than shadowstrike. I don't feel like I'm coming out of left field here lol

[lilac stag]

The game and its combat systems have evolved over 20 years

[spark tusk]

I mean I don't think sub was any more stealthy or subtle back then

than it is now

[hazy breach]

What do you mean by actually give us stealth

[restive onyx]

when we are in shadow dance, we're not stealth

[spark tusk]

In fact most people in vanilla were using significant amounts of explosives from engineering, so I'd argue it was LESS stealthy back then

[lilac stag]

you use finishers in stealth. Sub is a finisher spec.

[rustic geyser]

CD management is a different workhorse of a conversation alone for sub, we have a LOT of "setup" buttons or like "cds" that work more as a rotational skill that you don't really have an option to use or not. Because they feed the baseline rotation.

When it comes to any comparison to vanilla yeah, I'd just steer well clear, vanilla sub had hemo with maces and shit, idk if that helps anything to do with a talk about "subtlety"

[hazy breach]

Ye shadow dance is significantly better than stealth

[lilac stag]

design 2 new builders. What ya got?

[rustic geyser]

most who refer to vanilla just want hemo back

which has SOME validity, but we kinda have it via expose anyway

[spark tusk]

I'm not opposed to changes categorically, especially if it introduces better visuals

[lilac stag]

Delete rupture if hemo returns

[restive onyx]

1. Does less damage, but lets us restealth within a time range
2. Does more damage than shadowstrike in a dot
3. Leaves a clone, that we can teleport back to
4. Amplifies damage for a duration
5. Debuffs their output

I know there are issues I'm not considering, but I'm not a game dev

[lilac stag]

69 buttons later we have stuff that’s baked in

4. Shadow dance / sod

2. Rupture

1. How does that do anything useful?

5. It’s a poison

[restive onyx]

because restealthing could let us use another move from stealth

[lilac stag]

It’s shadow dance…

[restive onyx]

only works in a world were a stealth based class can do more than a single thing in stealth

[lilac stag]

Literally better than stealth

[restive onyx]

bro, if you gave a hunter a fireball and justified it by saying it's better than a bow, you're missing the point

[lilac stag]

you get stealth + and just want stealth.

[rustic geyser]

the 2 changes that I would hope for would relaly just boil down to
1 - a potential balancing and way to maintain or get close to maintaining dance with correct play/rotation (although I worry that the implementation might leave us feeling like OL maintaining ADR)
2 - Rupture itself still just feels weird to me, I have no fix or idea, it's just weird idk. Maybe if it was more akin to black arrow or some such and it fed procs or something. Just some kind of feedback loop

but really idc, if anything I'd just hope for sick visuals, the current gameplay is nice imo aside from the vaccuum of the downtime sections

[spark tusk]

Pete. Please for a moment. This analogy isn't called for because it's misunderstanding the premise. We're giving a hunter a better bow and calling it a better bow.

[restive onyx]

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I just don't see how being invisible in stealth is the same as a buff saying I can use my one stealth button

[spark tusk]

It's not the same

It's better

[lilac stag]

Perhaps you need to read how your abilities interact with that ability.

[rustic geyser]

dance is a button that allows you to access stealth skills, it's not "stealth"
the feel it's going for is that you're slippery in combat, not NOT there

[spark tusk]

I think it's thematic, has positive gameplay implications, matches with the spec's identity both from a theme and gameplay perspective.

[rustic geyser]

^

[spark tusk]

I have problems with sub, who doesn't, it is ripe for improvements

But Shadow dance is not wehre I'd start

It's one of the strongest aspects of the spec

[rustic geyser]

dance is the good bit imo

[lilac stag]

Rogue isn’t a stealth class. It’s a class that can stealth and stealth is primarily a defensive ability.

[hazy breach]

Cant really have anything stealthy anyway in wow nowadays

It just doesnt work in combat, regardless of what you try

[restive onyx]

That's obvious lol

[lilac stag]

Not to you apparently

[spark tusk]

Also

[restive onyx]

ok then

[spark tusk]

The game moves on

Time marches onwards from the past

Combat became outlaw, it's just different than it was and that is, perhaps, a good thing. (I'm not an outlaw fan)

I wouldn't mind a rework of sub especially thematically, but I think it has good elements now that should persist with such a rework

[rustic geyser]

WHAT?! NO! I wana go back to "10 seconds to build 5 cp, use slice n dice, ... 10 seconds to build 5 cp..."

[lilac stag]

Just drop premed

[rustic geyser]

hahaha

[lilac stag]

And enjoy your rupture building.

[rustic geyser]

😮 are you on that Combat > OL train?

[spark tusk]

No

I don't play outlaw enough to actually offer an informed opinion

[hazy breach]

But ye rupture should def have some interaction. I personally think sectech should only be usable in stealth as well, not really because of fantasy reasons but moreso for the intuitiveness of the spec

[spark tusk]

But I also think we try to cling to the past a bit too much, so reflexively to me any arguments that start from "we need to go back" are suspect. Doesn't mean they are wrong, but I think we can always look forward

[lilac stag]

outlaw aggravates my arthritis

[rustic geyser]

ditto

OL makes my eyes tired, sometimes I wana be able to concentrate on the mechanics happening around me instead of making infinite brain fatigue decisions every second

[hazy breach]

Something like rupture ticks have a chance to proc extra sht or extra dance cdr or something. Just anything to make it not be just a random dot you apply

[rustic geyser]

rupture for sure needs some kind of interaction over "just does dot damage"

it feels weird existing as it is currently

[lilac stag]

CC bot in pvp. Finisher spec in pve. Leave the dot shit to assa, which has fallen way off the dot wagon

[rustic geyser]

like it's GOOD, it just makes me feel a bit "why tho?"

[short radish]

delete rupture and buff everything else

it shouldnt have a place in sub toolkit

[lilac stag]

[short radish]

i am not here to dot things up

and kill things slowly

i am here to do big unga bunga burst

[hazy breach]

Idk i feel like it fits with trying to set up a huge burst

[rustic geyser]

I feel like it's just in still because of tradition, like slice n dice across the class etc

[hazy breach]

It just needs some juice to make it more interesting

[lilac stag]

nightblade was misery

[short radish]

how does it fit though?

[hazy breach]

Outside of dances you apply ruptures

[spark tusk]

If anything

[hazy breach]

That you then buff with dances

To do a bigger burst

[short radish]

why do people always say this when nightblade is reskinned rupture?

[spark tusk]

It should have just been turned into nightblade in name and flavor

[hazy breach]

Because you planned it beforehand

[spark tusk]

like

[short radish]

or am i not remembering nightblade

[spark tusk]

Why would they not just make it a shadow dot. I don't think that's the answer, I don't want that, but that seems obvious why would they not

It's not, nightblade had different scaling I think

per cp

[lilac stag]

Short tick and it was balanced high enough that spreading it was mostly required.

[spark tusk]

compared to rupture

yeah it was way shorter

[short radish]

right

[hazy breach]

Nightblade was 1 target only

[short radish]

sounds shit

[hazy breach]

And made you do 15% more damage to that target

[rustic geyser]

I mean they're both just "dot damage" but now we have a talent that turns it from a bleed into the shadow damage that nightblade was

[lilac stag]

so you had this awful loop

Of having to worry more about it than actual boom

[rustic geyser]

I don't hate the idea of it working more akin to black arrow, where youre not REALLY using it for damage output, you're using it to feed procs on sustained combat etc

[lilac stag]

The amp was nightblade. Not the dot.

[rustic geyser]

OH

oh

[lilac stag]

No one cared about the tick

[rustic geyser]

shit

yes

[lilac stag]

Rupture is whatever

But as soon as it’s more important to spread over an eviscerate in multi target. GTFO

[rustic geyser]

hard agree

[lilac stag]

Let’s take the concept of hemorrhage and make it a finisher costing CP with a short duration. Fucking brilliant.

Nightblade in a nutshell.

[rustic geyser]

yeah, I remember there was a tier set in legion that extended NB by like 4 seconds or something

At first glance it was eh, but in practice it felt like being able to breathe again

when I saw we were going back to rupture the first thing I noticed was the duration and it had me thinking like "oh good, we got the tier set baked in" but being rupture meant it was just the meh part of NB and not the amp at all

eventually rupture ended up just being "quickly do the math, will it tick out? if so then press it otherwise idk..."

which resulted in the infamous JPC comment in that vid that had him on the bonfire for a while

[short radish]

what comment was this?

[rustic geyser]

idk if it's worth revisiting, it created a bit of a shit storm at the time because it was treated with very heavy handed misinformation critique which WASN'T wrong but I don't think he really meant it with the gusto that it was being treated to have

basically it was just centered around "is it worth pressing this button?" and yeah

we all know how that conversation goes

[quiet pagoda]

#showtooltip Shadow Dance
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Symbols of Death
/cast Shadowstrike

Isn't working for me. Any1 have this trouble, or macro didnt work now ?

[topaz raptor]

Might not be able to queue a shadowstrike from out of stealth

[quiet pagoda]

Hmm, might be... So IcyVeins is a liar 😄

[molten citrus]

That macro used to work

I think something broke it pretty recently

[quiet pagoda]

Im kidding. I used it back in the DF or even SL. But now it not working

[molten citrus]

[short radish]

bunch of shit broke in the update a few days ago

wouldnt be surprised if this also broke

[quiet pagoda]

Are there good video guide for sub ?

[short radish]

hacha does some

[rustic geyser]

yeah if you're lookign for sub vids, for sure hachadino's ar ethe go to

[hazy breach]

Ye mb forgot to remove it. Changed it now

Also added this macro which i find quite helpful

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[quiet pagoda]

Im not "trolling" and complaining with that, just wanted to joke a bit 😦

[hazy breach]

Nah its fine

I just forgot that it was still mentioned so i went and removed it

[quiet pagoda]

isnt SoD+SD macro better ?

[hazy breach]

No

[quiet pagoda]

ffffuuuuuuuuu

i was so happy 😦

[hazy breach]

You ideally dont want to use dance and symbols at the same time during your bursts

[quiet pagoda]

Why not ? Isnt SD windows should be buffed with SoD ?

[hazy breach]

Because you end up with your supercharger not buffing your second secret technique

Or you need to delay your second dance

Im not saying you dont want to use them together, im saying you dont want them macroed to be used at the exact same time

[quiet pagoda]

Well, at the start I macroed it and thought, maybe im wrong, but then watched top log on myth 1st boss - dude had SD+SoD macroed

[rustic geyser]

use a timeline cast image dealio
I think that displays it better for peeps typically

[quiet pagoda]

So, I need to use SoD when SecTech is ready ? (in SD windows)

[hazy breach]

During your big burst, aka during flag+blades

Either when sectech is ready or when it has ~10s left

Because 7+3 = 10 reduction from the eviscerate

[rustic geyser]

this one can be weird to analyse tbh, like a top log could be for a whole host of reasons and one of largest parts of it would be good gameplay but it doesn't NECESSARILY mean PERFECT play

Like Shroud might dominate a lobby in some FPS game with a potato launcher but it doesn't mean that the potato launcher is bis

[hazy breach]

Key thing being that its the first boss where the top log is whoever has the worst group at doing damage to the adds in the intermission

[quiet pagoda]

Hmm, did 2 full big openers with macroed sd+sod - on 2nd SD use, SecTech was 2nd finisher, so it was supercharged i guess. Maybe with bl it will be different story...

[hazy breach]

I mean ye sometimes that works, but sometimes it doesnt

Sometimes you have 18s left on your sectech

[quiet pagoda]

Yea, I understand that. But mine logic is like "if this dude is here, than he knows how to play" - ofc not perfectly, but still

[hazy breach]

In which case you'd use two superchargers on eviscerate

[quiet pagoda]

And arent we must use 1 backstab before SecTech for DanceMac ? Sorry for stupid questions, played sub a while ago, maybe some talents and mechanics are different now

[hazy breach]

No

You never backstab in dance anymore

You dont play around macabre stacks in any way

[rustic geyser]

that sneaky backstab mid dance was always cringe imo

[quiet pagoda]

We pick it just for 6% finishers ?

[hazy breach]

Here is an example of what im talking about with the SoD+Dance stuff

I know its moving at like 100 mph, but you can see at 13s that i have 18s left on sectech

And my dance just ended

This is pretty much how you want all of your burst windows to look like

[quiet pagoda]

Maybe you should use Evi before second dance ? I think it solves

[hazy breach]

No

[iron fjord]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

Because then youre not using your dance inside your transmitter trinket or blades

So you want to do pretty much exactly what i did there every time your flag is up, but you gotta check to make sure you will have enough dances and symbols to do that.
A good rule of thumb is to make sure you have 1 dance charge and atleast 40s left on your second charge whenever you use Flag. (as well as 1 charge of symbols with the second one having less than ~10s or so left)

Or well, not the vanish+evis thing at the start because thats an opener only thing, mid combat you'd just go Flag > rupture > dance+symbols

[short radish]

Oh wait when you're doing big burst I should be pressing symbols when i'm about to sectech again and not at 3sec duration?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[short radish]

thanks

[hazy breach]

Supercharger goes hard on sectech

[short radish]

old habits die hard

what about supercharging coup?

does this overwrite the coup as first finishernow if you have coup?

[hazy breach]

It doesnt really matter much, as CP scaling is linear for it

As in you get the same supercharger dmg from buffing coup as you would buffing eviscerate

[quiet pagoda]

Thanks, for explain. And do you mean that on second Flag i need to have 2 dance stacks ? Or I understood it wrong ?

[hazy breach]

So it doesnt really matter

Before you press flag you want to have 1 dance charge and 40 seconds or less left on your second one yes

[rustic geyser]

yeah I fuck the supercharger thing occasionally too atm, just coz of muscle memory

keep hitting sod early

[quiet pagoda]

Ooooooh, thats new for me. I thought that we use 2 back to back at start and then use "what you have"

[short radish]

kk so if I am going into dance and i have coup/fazed

do i still press evis(coup) or do i press sectech as first finisher?

[hazy breach]

Then you wont have 2 for your next flag

Sectech

[short radish]

[hazy breach]

Or well, for the non-flag ones you can coup

It doesnt really matter

[short radish]

i will press sectech since i dont like desyncing sectech

excellent

thank you

[hazy breach]

But for the flag+blades go its really cringe if you dont get a coup proc after sectech

Since then you will have ~4s left on your sectech cd

When you want to use it

[short radish]

yeah

[quiet pagoda]

Wait, so I need to somehow "work" with Coup too ? I thought it was "just send it" 😄

[short radish]

nah just send

[iron fjord]

holy shit what happened to the logs? Sub gets outclassed af and outlaw sneaking on top?

[short radish]

holding coup is cringe

[rustic geyser]

you can't really hold coup in any way that makes sense anyway

[short radish]

my brain was still running off 11.0.0 logic

where you black powder to hold coup for dance

[rustic geyser]

bro

[short radish]

it doesnt get an update very often

[rustic geyser]

I still hate hearing that

that's like one of those rules you read and are like "how much difference does it really make?? coz ew"

[short radish]

ikr

[hazy breach]

Not sure what you mean by "happened", but nobody plays sub

[short radish]

there are like 13 sub players and anyone else who plays sub is an assi main who has a gun to their head

[iron fjord]

i could swear there were at least a few subs in the top 100 parses on for example princess

like 1 week ago

[rustic geyser]

princess leaned towards sub, but as the fight was updated / nerfed it became a lot more lenient towards the sin damage windows so people are gravitating back to their preferred spec

I think

[hazy breach]

Never really leaned towards sub

The charges have awful timings

[rustic geyser]

sub felt comfortable for me by comparison to where your windows would line up on sin

[hazy breach]

You always get the one at 3 minute

[rustic geyser]

but yeah

[short radish]

sub just feels comfy in general

being able to play sub again on queen has made me realise how much i hate playing assi

[rustic geyser]

there's also just MORE people doing queen now too

which makes a difference

[short radish]

something about assi just makes me hate the game

[rustic geyser]

lol

[short radish]

maybe im too much of a boomer now

and i can appreciate the down time of sub

[rustic geyser]

I swear I'm like one of like 8 people in this disc who doesn't hate any one of the three specs

[short radish]

assi has downtime but it's cringe downtime

probably

i mean i'll play whatever is strongest rogue spec

but sub is always comfort

[rustic geyser]

were you playing in bfa?

lol

[short radish]

uhhhhh

i played at the start i think

[rustic geyser]

sub had a great time in bfa, for about 2 weeks lol

[short radish]

then my guild got CE the week after i left for holiday and t hen disbanded

so then i quit for the rest of the expac

i did play zul though

[rustic geyser]

fair, sub was deleted from pve, you didn't miss much

[short radish]

that was fun

and whatever that dungeon was where you go through the dungeon sewers

playing sub for the first boss

then going out and respeccing

[rustic geyser]

hahahaha I will NEVER

that spec shifting stuff is so degen

lol

[short radish]

you should have seen my mates triple mage spec on halls of valor

[hazy breach]

Ye for sure

[short radish]

i think it was like

[rustic geyser]

if that's ever a requirement at a certain key level I'll just be like "oh aye, so that's where my push stops, cool"

[short radish]

fire for the first pull -> as it was ending he walks out and respecs to frost

[hazy breach]

But its also awful to play last boss of NW as deathstalker assa

[short radish]

plays that for the entire dungeon up till last boss - > tps out and changes to arcane

[rustic geyser]

fuck

no

[hazy breach]

You need to hold your darkest night for the shield and you need to hold it for when you get sent down

So you effectively just need to sit on your darkest night for like 10-15s sometimes

[short radish]

can you just hearth out -> respec -> dungeon teleport in?

[hazy breach]

Which means you do zero damage

Can just dungeon teleport

respec

walk in

[short radish]

ooooh

kk

[rustic geyser]

I really wish there was a more elegant way in general for the mark to be handled

it feels very....

[short radish]

if you dont have a mark - mutilate applies it

problem solved

[rustic geyser]

"combo points are on the target, not you"

[hazy breach]

Like my best attempt at that boss as assa i did 1M

Ive done 1.4M as sub

[iron fjord]

tbh doing alot of dmg on that boss can be funny

teammates dodging being sent down

hardest thing about this fight

and forgetting to click the tricks buff so the mob doesn't bug out

[hazy breach]

Probably the least fun boss fight ive ever done in a dungeon

The only reason its even possible to do at the highest of keys is because of the stupid mc trick with the cleave dudes

So you never need to break the shield natty

[iron fjord]

agree, one of the worst in this dungeon pool imo

[rustic geyser]

Least fun I ever had was CoT last boss in week 1 luls

[tribal blade]

well, good thing ToP is coming back

[rustic geyser]

I never minded theatre tbh

I actually... hot take, I MASSIVELY hate mists more than ToP

[short radish]

yeah mists suck

the thrasher mobs before first boss? fuck being in melee i guess

and the 2nd pull after 2nd boss? glhf seeing anything on the floor or standing anywhere if you have more than 2 melee

[tribal blade]

ToP is a pretty complicated dungeon

[rustic geyser]

I hate the way people drastically underestimate how hard it is or can be, I hate that people ignore the existence of the maze and how dumb it is, I hate the clone boss and her stupid games, I hate the last boss and his dogshit hit box, I hate that the mob counter is variable because of the dumb maze, I hate the fact that any time it's in the roster of available keys it's ALL ANYONE WANTS TO RUN

I fucking hate mists

[hazy breach]

Ye im not a fan of mists either

[rustic geyser]

in saying that I also never really liked motherlode either so maybe it's just me, maybe I'm wrong

I liked shrine of storms lololol

as long as we dont' get seat of the triumverate back it's all w/e really

[tribal blade]

being gated how fast you can go by the maze

is horrible design

[rustic geyser]

I was REALLY hoping that with mists return it would at least just be "all doors are open"

pick your path

[tribal blade]

if they really wanted to make it fair

make it not possible to pull through the walls, i dunno have the mobs be untargetable until the doors are open

and then add time to the timer

or yeah just do away with the doors completely

[rustic geyser]

also I hate the poison ground on those bug mobs at the end of the dungeon where you just pull 94 thousand things

and the ranged players being like "oh nah that bits easy"

[tribal blade]

visual clarity is really bad in the last half yeah

[rustic geyser]

fuck off hunter

lol

[tribal blade]

that's like my hunter RL and arcane mage in my guild who were like "tf are you talking about, transmitter is so easy to use"

[rustic geyser]

hahahaha

[tribal blade]

yeah no shit, you guys aren't pressed up against mobs with a million mechanics in the way

transmitter isn't so bad to use anymore since i'm used to it, but it can sometimes be incredibly grief

[rustic geyser]

"whats wrong rogue"
"I FUCKING PRESSED MY TRANSMITTER AND DIDN'T TURN SLIGHTLY!"
"just grab the orb?"
"I DON'T FUCKING KNOW WHERE IT IS!"

[tribal blade]

hehe having to wait to find the orb

and see it's tokyo drifted in a random direction

[short radish]

tbh

the orb one is probably the easiest one

i hate the platform one

[rustic geyser]

I don't ;mind any of them really

[short radish]

orb is jsut pop and run north east

[rustic geyser]

it's normally misplay that fucks it, but that doesn't make it feel better

[short radish]

getting the platform one and then having to stand there while the mob runs away

is

[rustic geyser]

I still prefer the transmitter to the branch

[short radish]

true

why the fuck does agi always have these dog shit move around trinkets

[rustic geyser]

branch was like FINE... till you got to those last 3 bosses

and then it was like

hey

no

[short radish]

cant blizzard just give press button give stat

like spymasters

[rustic geyser]

spymasters working for melee

I will cum

I liked the bat boss trinket though

[short radish]

what was that

[rustic geyser]

I forget the name the one that made you lunge

[short radish]

oh

[rustic geyser]

and do a massive hit

[short radish]

that one

yeah i kinda enjoyed that

espcially with 100% crit

[rustic geyser]

and it still came with the whole "will it get you killed? yeah. But it was funny asf"

[short radish]

[turbid saddle]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[turbid saddle]

anyone know wtf is up with shadowcraft refunds

oh ok so replicating shadows bug