subtlety

[fossil gyro]

Imagine you can just titanforge onto Mythic track from 10+ gear

[vale pine]

"mythic item level ritual knive"

[tribal blade]

damn that would be massive bis

[vale pine]

or even better

with avoidence

jokes aside, i think titanforging is just a mechanism

to keep content rewarding

e.g. we discussed with delves

how they rly only give you normal loot

and a heroic loot vault

but you barely have any reason to run them outside of like first 2 weeks each patch

blizz ofc gives you reasons now

[tribal blade]

would it be worth at some point taking a hero track knife from the vault?

[vale pine]

you have a battle pass for it

with "season 1 progress"

[vestal escarp]

Wouldnt that require running delves?

[vale pine]

i got heroic track from a map

but there is no reason to use it over mythic items

[tribal blade]

DAMN lucky

[vale pine]

its just very good for a heroic item

yes

i also got 2x

abyssal trap

[tribal blade]

which i do every week 😉

[vale pine]

[vestal escarp]

[vale pine]

now i can pretend to be a hunter

[fossil gyro]

https://tenor.com/view/dead-my-honest-reaction-damn-skull-skeleton-gif-15885937969029652188

[vestal escarp]

Delves solo content is too slow for me

[tribal blade]

it's simple, fast

gives a lot of stuff

[sly shore]

It's pretty easy to see delves are not content aimed at me

[vale pine]

delves reward structure is meh

[sly shore]

But who it is aimed it

it's really good for

simples

[vale pine]

its good for alts

if they can solo it

[sly shore]

even then not

[vale pine]

whats the next question

[fossil gyro]

Horrific visions coming back though 👀

[tribal blade]

i'm someone who does stuff like achievements, pet collecting, mount collecting, tmog collecting

so doing delves every week is worth to me

i'm actually finishing up my last weekly delve as we speak

[fossil gyro]

TBH on week 1 soloing delves with low gear was fun as it was kinda new and challenging + gear was as good as you could get

[alpine wraith]

for rogue it was easymode tho

you can even sap the big elites

and just skip them

LUL

also trick brann when he was a rabid rapist

[lilac stag]

rogue wasn’t ez mode. Pet classes were ez mode on release.

[sly shore]

bdk solo the entire thing for a group

[lilac stag]

bm hunters running 11s when everyone else at 6-7. Haha

I like delves. Nice time to just chill and do some solo content. I wish the 11s offered heroic gear and at least 1 mythic vault option

[alpine wraith]

well we got lots of content cut

remember awakening the machine was meant to be a whole thing

it had 50 lvls and lots of achievs etc

delves too i guess

we'll never know

[fossil gyro]

Btw I'm gonna take a look at updating the WoWAnalyzer for sub over the weekend for "fun"

[round latch]

basicly free gold and materials,takes like 20min a week

[vestal escarp]

For how many delves?

[round latch]

8

[alpine wraith]

i have like 20 keys

[round latch]

and i might exaggerate on time

[alpine wraith]

maybe i do some

but yea delve mats ar soaring

[round latch]

its like 2min each delve

[vestal escarp]

Bro im gonna chrono myself watch what you say

[alpine wraith]

i have done tak rethan in like 1 min and a half

[vestal escarp]

You also need to grind keys right

[alpine wraith]

you are bulldozer now

literally pull everything and aoe it down

with brann healer

the pot heals for 4m

LUL

[round latch]

u dont rly care,just go in storm the delve go next

if u get a map rng the heor track knife

[vestal escarp]

Ngl i want hero knife

Crystal is strong but ..

[round latch]

yup knife is poggers

[lilac stag]

I keep running them for knife

[vestal escarp]

I would like to sim mandate never critting vs crystal or knife

[round latch]

knife wins vs heroic mandate in m+

hands down

[vestal escarp]

Yeah not keys tho

Patchwerk

[round latch]

ah mandate kinda stronk st

stonks

didnt do the comparison

[vale pine]

not a fan

[alpine wraith]

the weeks where you had paranoia

will haunt me

[vale pine]

i don't want to ruin anyones fun for the game

[alpine wraith]

DONT MOVE

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

feared

[vale pine]

but wow takes the crown from nintendo in re-cycling content

this xpac

old is the new new

[lilac stag]

I made our Hunter reconsider life choices with my opener burst. “Dude how are you getting mandate to pop every time?” I’m not, that’s sub rogue using a 619 delve trinket.

[vale pine]

i think visions are fun once

its just not a good long time format

[bronze turret]

Nah, not my vibe

[vale pine]

did you test/play plunderstorm

might be fun for a little while

[lilac stag]

I’m looking forward to plunder round 2

[vale pine]

i am not sure yet

but we will see, i hope for a new map and skills

[chrome fern]

raid was a success!

[vale pine]

nice

[fair anchor]

Is there a reason for the sim to sometimes send sectec 2nd finisher in dance, usually popping dance with full combo points to instantly eviscerate ?

Even outside of the 2nd dance in the flag window cause yeah this one is obvious

It looks like it does it when we already have several stacks of flawless form

[lilac stag]

@hazy breach ^

[vale pine]

it is because we use symbols/dance before secret is off cd

so it uses a finisher to get back secret

[fair anchor]

Ah yeah so we're not fighting for of live with backstab and get Sectec quicker, smart, i see thanks

Might need to make a rule in my head depending on sectec remaining cd

[zenith hearth]

gz

[unkempt adder]

is there a macro to like stop casting an ability if the aura is already on? like if i macro secret tech with symbols of death, i can sometimes use 2 stacks of symbol because i spam key like we all do

[native zodiac]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[native zodiac]

@unkempt adder

[unkempt adder]

aha thank you

[latent finch]

Sry to ask but what is knife? A dwelf trinket?

[unkempt adder]

#showtooltip secret technique
/cast cold blood
/castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death, secret technique, null
/cqs

this worked like a charm @native zodiac

[idle aurora]

How many people bake symbols of death into sec tec or shadow?

[winged prawn]

Do we still need to play gnome on queen ?

[unkempt adder]

#showtooltip secret technique
/cast cold blood
/castsequence reset=1 Symbols of Death, null
/castsequence reset=2 secret technique
/cqs

needed to refine it. this fixes if the cold blood and symbols is on cd but still want to use secret tech problem

[trail epoch]

Weirdo

Remove cast sequence before tech

[round latch]

the dark ritual knife from delves,mastery and primary stat on equip

[vestal escarp]

Naaaaah i wanna kms

[unkempt adder]

ye true i dont need that

[vestal escarp]

this stuff aint for me

[hazy breach]

[tepid trellis]

ngl eleem im kinda addicted to this class

[native zodiac]

I personally would advise against macroing symbols into technique

But up to you

[unkempt adder]

is there an instance where i would use symbols without tech?

[native zodiac]

Theres a lot of times you will use technique as 2nd finisher in your dance for example

So you will not have symbols at the start of your dance then

I personally only use the cb technique macro as i think the others create bad habits especially if the logic changes next tier for example

[coarse nexus]

do any of you play tornado in m+?

[hazy breach]

LA combat is fun

[hazy breach]

I would not recommend it. Its not that good as trickster

Its very slightly better than veiltouched on huge pulls yes, but its completely useless on bosses and very weak on low target counts

[sinful sluice]

holy shit this was so thrilling

[static juniper]

do we always want to press SoD right before sectech for the supercharged points?

[hazy breach]

Yesnt

You always want your sectech to use one of the supercharger points yes

[static juniper]

++

[hazy breach]

But its not necessarily always the first one

[static juniper]

will try to turn it into a habbit as im still using SoD + dance when sectech is 7-10 sec away..

[static juniper]

can you elaborate more on this

[hazy breach]

You get 2 supercharged combo points when you press SoD

[static juniper]

ooh so you do not consume them both at once

[hazy breach]

So if your sectech has 10 seconds left and you use dance+symbols and eviscerate, it will reduce the cooldown of sectech to 0 and then you can use the other one with sectech

Correct you do not consume both at once

[tepid trellis]

as BMTH once said, killing it(me) 1 by 1

[hazy breach]

During your blades+flag burst you want to use it for that purpose

Since you end up with 10s left on sectech most of the time

So if you dont use SoD for those +3 then you will need an extra finisher before sectech, which isnt great

[vale pine]

is that the finisher focused class you talked about?

[tepid trellis]

yuh, high uptime big hitter class

[idle aurora]

lol why does it seem like in some fights flag has a Lower range that other abilities i swear I use it and am three gcd into rotation and looking at it still up and just Sadge

[sullen hare]

That's the exact change I made off the FAQ talent build because I'm a tornado hater

[idle aurora]

Tornado is jarring to play

IMO as a new player to sub

And trickster

[tulip gorge]

tornado is unique in it's jankiness

[thick temple]

Does it matter what tier delve you do for mats/coin farm? Is there a point past tier 8?

[chrome fern]

Not past 8 no

[golden lily]

anyone got a good WA set

[sullen hare]

!wa

I tried

[golden lily]

!wa

[wild hornet]

!wawa

[golden lily]

!wawa

[plush roost]

Moroes is on strike ig

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[plush roost]

Hmm

!weakaura

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[plush roost]

Gottit

[sullen hare]

He just hates me I guess smfh 😦

[plush roost]

:l

[golden lily]

thanks for the help man

[spark tusk]

WAWA

!

[spark tusk]

https://tenor.com/view/bro-just-spunned-in-front-of-the-females-cat-cat-spin-cat-spun-cat-getting-spun-gif-13054455793337746706

Thanks @uneven fern for this gif

[uneven fern]

:p

np lmao

[leaden prairie]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[leaden prairie]

usually im doing the start of mist with these talents, i cant deal with the replicating shadows bug anymore

what talent do i take instead

im clueless

[spark tusk]

Maybe tfd or shadow focus?

I don't know why I'm offering an opinion to the level of content you're doing tho

[hazy breach]

Tfd for sure

[vale pine]

the first dance

shadow focus is very weak

shuriken tornado is meh

[leaden prairie]

i went shadow focus !

[spark tusk]

[leaden prairie]

your fault

[spark tusk]

[round latch]

8 is ur number

[vale pine]

it can be my fault, no problem

[alpine wraith]

why would you not play first dance

one of the best talents for m+

[warm marlin]

its only for mists up to 1st boss so you are only getting maybe 12s of dance total

and 4 of those are on the 1st part of boss so not a ton of value

[alpine wraith]

yea and keep in mind those extra 4 secs are already worth almost in a 6 mi boss fight

even more in 3 mins of dungeon

where you proc it twice or thrice

so even more reason to run it

[warm marlin]

when i was cooking this for this part of mists I was looking at dropping RS and premed for ist/planned execution for pure burn dmg

[alpine wraith]

so you lost the sun while looking for weeds

but tbh we dont have many extra burst talents

i guess PE would help a bit more

[warm marlin]

ya it was more tfd duration gets used before the burn, and burn damage would be the main reason to swap to sub anyway, and premed does nothing for burst with blades lasting entire phase

[zenith hollow]

does anyone know of a queen log where they hold vanish for 1st root break I can look at?

[uneven scarab]

If you vanish at the start of the pull its back up for 1st roots

[zenith hollow]

good to know thanks

and you can vanish>cloak>dps 3rd root if you aren't gnome ya?

[uneven scarab]

Its either back up for 1st or 2nd i believe

yeah you can easy

[alpine wraith]

yea you vanish cloak dps vanish

[hazy breach]

Which is a lot better than nothing (ie SF)

[alpine wraith]

yea idk let people be people although for mists most of the time i prefer to just send cds on pull on ingra

then i have cb dance + mandate on burn

and other people can save more things

still end up the boss at like 3 m 3.2m most of the time unless group sucks a bit and we have to do 3 burns

[warm marlin]

fair enough

[lilac stag]

Imagine the trash before the boss getting destroyed faster because you took TFD. Those are easy uses.

[alpine wraith]

well these people know what they want

so making them change ideas is hard

still going PE is not a super bad idea for that situation

[vale pine]

i think tfd should get the 6 seconds removed

[warm marlin]

I have been playing tfd in there, I was more wondering about the viability of playing that PE alternative

[vale pine]

simply because ....

it sucks

its bad player feedback

[alpine wraith]

yea it is hard to say always i do like tfd more but maybe you rng crit some more with PE

but i also do the above

so im blasting ingra on pull where tfd shines more

likely that is more boss dmg than PE VS tfd on the burn

[hazy breach]

Well for sub the ideal way to play the boss is to use CDs on pull and then phase it at 1:30

And then phase it again at 3m and kill it

My main gripe with tfd

Is that it often doesnt start counting until like 3-4 seconds after youve left combat

[vale pine]

maybe it still uses the old 10 second timer?

[gritty knot]

I am sick of replicating shadows too tbh...so u guys would recommend using the First Dance anyway in m+ Always?

[alpine wraith]

it also can reset because of healers and some spells

very annoying

[alpine wraith]

yea always tfd

the only talent i change is wm to replicating

if i still havent inted by getting annoyed

of losing cps

that day

[gritty knot]

Okay, nice thx. U cant reset tfd midfight somehow right? Like vanish far away. And even if it works its propably stupid right? I actually didn't Play tfd yet because i can only Play Sub in some Dungeons. In Others i am always forced to Play assa because of IW....-.-

[alpine wraith]

nope no resetting

on dungeons you can but doing it midpull is not worth

[gritty knot]

Okay. But still 4 Seconds longer shadowdance is huge propably

[alpine wraith]

it is

as said before it is almost worth on a 6 min bossfight

so imagine getting several procs over a dungeon

[gritty knot]

Nice, I ll try that Out later for Sure. That Sounds insane. Good for me that I ve read that discussion today and saw that, because I never thought of that Talent yet 😂

[left ledge]

It’s a very nice talent

But it counts wrong

You technically should be able to have it a lot more often

[gritty knot]

In CoT it must be insane aswell

[left ledge]

But sometimes it just counts down too late

[gritty knot]

Or dawnbreaker

Damn. I am actually super excited now to Test that Out later when I can come online

Thx guys

[uneven scarab]

[hazy breach]

I mean its not huge, but its way better than some extra strike prio damage from wm

[uneven scarab]

one pulled queen

[vale pine]

nicu

[uneven scarab]

tyty

[hollow pawn]

Hi, is it okay to hold secret tech or 15-20 secs for upcoming CDs or is it better to use outside of dance

[uneven scarab]

If you got cd’s coming in 15-20 def hold

[thick temple]

I haven't been accepted into a single +12 since I've timed all m+ 11s. Am I supposed to play sin to just progress IO? Do you guys have this same issue?

[pliant topaz]

think about it like this

12 is a big hard gate

jump is really big

keys get a lot harder

u and all the other people who timed all their 11s are applying

so the chances of you getting in, is very little

[molten wagon]

I have a BM friend who has this issue, and who gets kicked when they see he runs BM and not SV, the solution to increase the acceptance is to reroll tank or heal 🤣

[alpine wraith]

yea best thing you can do is time your 11 +1 or +2

and then get people to do yours

[pliant topaz]

best thing is to have friends u play with and stop pugging altogether

[thick temple]

I didn't know if theres a gap between 11 to 12

[alpine wraith]

yea my friends all quit already

[pliant topaz]

theres a major gap between 11s and 12s

[alpine wraith]

unlucky

[pliant topaz]

12s feel closer to what you think a 14 feels like

[alpine wraith]

i was doing 12s third week

[pliant topaz]

rather than a 12

[thick temple]

I dont think anyone is bold enough to claim class selection trumps skill expression/talent when timing 12s

[alpine wraith]

but now i cba

only do 8 10s

yea but it is all the information people have

the only thing they have is keys done io class spec

[pliant topaz]

how are they going to tell your skill level?

[alpine wraith]

oh and ilv

[pliant topaz]

they see a spec and an io attached to it

[thick temple]

my io?

[pliant topaz]

its litearlly a number and a spec

everyone aroud you has the same io

and better specs

so which one would you take?

[thick temple]

i take the guy that has higher io

[pliant topaz]

but they all have the same io

youve timed all 11s so im assumign youre like 2750?

[thick temple]

tier whoring when you aren't in the top .01 percentile is like the most unhealthy way to approach competition

2721

[molten wagon]

Like, you need a tank, you have a monk and a dk in your list, same io, same ilvl, which one do you take

[pliant topaz]

okay 2721, how many other 2700-2850 people do you think apply to a 12?

put your own 12 up, youll see

[alpine wraith]

always monk it buffs me

[pliant topaz]

theres people in 2800s applying. so why take the 2721

[alpine wraith]

my groups always warrior monk shaman druid and me

[thick temple]

I didn't notice this selective bias until I applied for 12s. I did not feel outcasted when applying for 11s.

[alpine wraith]

all the buffs for me

[pliant topaz]

its because 12 is where the gate is.

[thick temple]

I dont know probably who applied first. This is my first xpac, I really don't have a bias in class selection except when raiding ig.

[alpine wraith]

yea it is a bit it is what it is

meta

[pliant topaz]

class selection is more important in m+ than raid

[alpine wraith]

yea because of deplete

if you could retry it would be more permissible

[thick temple]

does meta trump like time put into a class? Skill expression? Wouldn't you want a master of x,y,z instead of some mediocre jack of all trades

[pliant topaz]

like you go to ara kara without poison dispell, even a 12 is a nightmare

[alpine wraith]

people care 0 about your exp they only see what they see

you can talk all you want here but they only have that info

[pliant topaz]

u go to SV without curse dispell, youre not getting past the litearlly first pull

[thick temple]

Do you advise I learn sin or just host my own keys

[pliant topaz]

do your own keys

[alpine wraith]

i just hope you dont enjoy m+

[pliant topaz]

or ebtter yet, find 4 other people

and play with them

[alpine wraith]

doing it without frinds is harsh

[uneven scarab]

without a group it is miserable

100%

[alpine wraith]

you could try and intermingle with people if you see someone good talk to them

[thick temple]

i have like nothing else to do other than work on raid parses lol

or play like fightinggames ig

[alpine wraith]

not everyone is super introverted

[molten wagon]

Yeah, play with friends, don't care about the meta, and the keys will go up

[alpine wraith]

some people will just talk

[thick temple]

filling in the gaps when my friends aren't available. I did half of my 11s with at least my tank friend

[molten wagon]

Ping the guys you did the 11 with, ask them if they're down to try on 12

[molten wagon]

Oh, yeah, good start

[alpine wraith]

yea you already have more friends than me now

[pliant topaz]

this is stealthis thoughts on pugigng m+

[thick temple]

My main concern is spec selection. Im not trying to make a speech about community bias

[alpine wraith]

they all left key

class selection will be biased

because everyone can see the data

it is not a hidden thing

some are better

[thick temple]

illusion of free choice. ive never learned assa and I dont have assa gear

I gave up a mythic silken neck bc I dont play sin, but ik its good on sin

[warm marlin]

being a meta spec will help a bit but even then your best bet is probably running your own key until you have a few 12s timed and more score to get invites to 12s

[pliant topaz]

okay, class selection is very very very real in m+. There are specific utility that are required in some keys like decurse, or poison cleansing that mean sometimes you need to bring specific classes that have them.

[thick temple]

I meant spec selection, I understand when you dont need a rogue in certain dungeons.

[pliant topaz]

now if you mean on a 12 why they care if youre a sub rogue or a sin rogue, well, theres 2 rogues one is sub one is sin both 2800 io. Sin is more likely to make your keys easier because its a lot easier to do more damage with it. so you pick the spec thats more likely to help you time the key.

[thick temple]

unless there is utility assa has that sub doesnt

[pliant topaz]

assa has iron wire

its not needed at all

but it does make keys a bit easier

[uneven scarab]

sub gives no parries

Huge party buff

[thick temple]

am i a minority to voice that is a poor competitive perspective

ive grinded tons of comp games and wow is my first mmo. I never believed meta to make an impact on perforamnce unless you are in top .001 percentile. Skill will always be the difference maker

[warm marlin]

unfortunately in wow the only approximation of skill we have are a few funny numbers

[molten wagon]

Yeah, but people thrive to look like the top .001% and do the same without thinking about what each class is bringing to the table

[uneven scarab]

That is still the case here but meta definitely has a much larger impact in wow

[pliant topaz]

okay you keep saying skill, but the only real signal towards your skill is io. and even then its not really a meaningful signal.

so theres no indication

[topaz raptor]

given equal skill, you take the better spec

[warm marlin]

in fact, they are inviting based on skill. if you wait more than a minute when posting a 12 there will be plenty of 2800+ applicants who by the only metric possible are more likely to have more skill

[pliant topaz]

^

[thick temple]

I dont mean to compare like the exact same IO of two rogues, one sin and one assa

[topaz raptor]

very easy to assume everyone is equal skill (bad) and you take the spec that is statistically the best

[warm marlin]

it's not really unfair but it is just the reality of doing keys, find a group/friends or suffer in group finder (the second one is very not fun from someone who did it a lot in the past)

[thick temple]

isnt rogue overall a difficult class? Is sin relatively a 1,2,3,4 spec compared to sub?

[gritty knot]

@alpine wraith U said I should drop weaponmaster talent right? and talent TFD instead

[uneven scarab]

If you wanna play tfd you drop wm yes

[pliant topaz]

LFG is just not a sustainable system for a role based game.

[thick temple]

I understand, I was using poor wording. I mean in an extremist case where one would completely ignore sub rogues in M+, regardless of IO, because of the spec

[gritty knot]

Okay thx

[topaz raptor]

no i think sin and sub are both pretty easy, target the highest hp monster and just do your single target rotation

[alpine wraith]

nope for me the change is wm to replicating

i always play tfd

[gritty knot]

@alpine wraith aaah, okay. will try that out, cheers m8

[molten wagon]

And also, the composition matters, like you are a sole dps trying to run your key, you don't want to take other dps first because you're lacking tank/heal so first you wait because you don't want to pass on tanks tagging with their buddies. Once you've taken your tank and your heal, you already have 3/4 people in your key, and you will usually find that you are lacking some vital utility (like, you want an aug, a lust, a CR) and take the associated class. As sub, you don't bring that much if you trade the vital utility for the quality of life you bring

[topaz raptor]

i would say sub is harder because timings matter

yeah utility is not created equal

[pliant topaz]

this was like 2 weeks ago.

[topaz raptor]

cables are pretty good though

[thick temple]

I'm afraid the more I go down this m+ grind I will be in your position. So I'm wondering if I just learn sin to get over it. But it seems I can last a little longer just hosting my own keys w/ friends

per your guys' friendly advice

[topaz raptor]

yeah sin is very clearly the better spec, but fortunately sub is good enough that you aren't really griefing if you are playing it

[thick temple]

For such a long lasting franchise I just expected a little more, idk.

[uneven scarab]

[topaz raptor]

they don't put a huge amount of effort into balancing m+, i don't even know if it's possible

balance is in a much better spot than it has been in the last couple tiers

balance is actually really really good right now

[pliant topaz]

any game that becomes competitive developes a preference towards meta. You see pick rates of meta champs go up even in gold/plat/emerald in league.

an LFG based system makes this worse because you can actively choose who you bring

it further makes it worse because the supply >>>>>>> demand for dps

[thick temple]

is it troll if i host my keys as assa and then once the group is formed i switch to sub or does my io change

[hazy breach]

Its fine

[pliant topaz]

youll sooon realize people dotn care as much who you are when signing up for your keys

everyones in your shoes

they just wanan get in a key

[thick temple]

i can see that

[alpine wraith]

yea these kinda games were always meant to be played together

so kinda like get into guilds/communities befriend people then play together

if you dont do that

you end up sad eventually

or be like me and all your friends stop playing kek

[thick temple]

wow is dying amongst my friend group slowly have a monk and a mage that will always run keys w me though

[manic island]

do we have any buffs coming up

[lilac stag]

For what reason?

[gritty knot]

does anyone have a weakaura which tells me if TFD is activated rn?

[lilac stag]

You can add a border notification to your dance WA. #subtlety message

Otherwise just make an aura WA

[strange chasm]

also akari is bugged again on queen log 😦

[alpine wraith]

you need loggers on both sides

otherwise it krangles

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/good-boy-dance-gif-25381375

Run your own logs.

[tight bison]

I see a HUGE difference in trinkets being used in keys.. what is a good pair for sub? 😄

[alpine wraith]

transmitter then depending on dungeon mandate or a passive one

passive ones are crystal from dawnbreaker ovi nax egg knife from delve or contract

[tight bison]

aye aye

[tight bison]

also, is Queen ring good for Sub?

[alpine wraith]

a bit better than a normal ring

[lilac stag]

Huge difference in all 20 of us?

[tight bison]

haha truuue

[lilac stag]

One person kills a boss with the wrong talent selected and all of the sudden there’s a 6% variance in talents taken on wcl

[alpine wraith]

time to kill queen ansurek with goremaw

and make people question their ideals

[lilac stag]

Really fuck with em and take double vanish

[bronze turret]

Is it really that few playing sub

[lilac stag]

It’s probably lower than post combo.

Assa is so fucking strong

sub was propped up on court and queen

3800 mythic parses over 2 weeks. Getting slightly better

[alpine wraith]

think there are 20 people or less

but private logs are there too so idk

[lilac stag]

keys…. lets see

[alpine wraith]

sorry 95 public logs now

nerf did some things

[lilac stag]

So less than .1

[alpine wraith]

so yea lets say there are double the private logs

there are 180 logs of sub on ansurek

vs lets say

ok i got lazy but yea there are more than 1000 bm

but many of those are rekills so idk

[lilac stag]

86 parses this week on princess

76 on Ghuun.

[bronze turret]

And the playing amount is the same?

[alpine wraith]

i got rank 7 on oci nax pog

[bronze turret]

Like

Total amount of players

[lilac stag]

I’m on mobile. Not gonna try to sort that out.

[alpine wraith]

yea but lets see

same boss

also seems 3 people sneaked while my rank fixed

im rank 10 now smh

[cursive vapor]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[fervent oxide]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[vale pine]

expected

[pliant topaz]

14 SV double boss go brr

sub stonks

[strange chasm]

Sub is so insanely fun. I will not be swapping for reclear now, but unfort will still be playing ass for key push.

[idle aurora]

Man I still can’t figure out how people maintain such insane dam in keys

I must b holding onto cooldowns too much

And also my awful trinket situation

[alpine wraith]

it is mostly gear

a lot of us are like 635

the diff in power is massive even if only 5 to 7 ilvl lower

[strange chasm]

637 😎

[alpine wraith]

yea im 636 rn i think

next week 637

[hazy breach]

Probably yeah, i only hold if i know for sure the mobs are gonna die halfway through my cooldowns

Obviously its gonna depend on your groups damage and your ilvl, but ive found that ~60m or so left on a mob is usually enough to get most of the value out of it

So if a mob has less than that i wouldnt use

[idle aurora]

That’s a good call out

I wish more tanks would keep the pull train moving

I die inside when I’m sitting on big combo

And we are fighting one high health mob

[hazy breach]

You should probably still use a shadow dance+symbols

Even if youre not sending your big cds

[idle aurora]

Do you ever hold big dam on a big pack of boss coming up?

Or still send?

[hazy breach]

Another rule of thumb is that you generally want ~40s left on your second dance charge whenever you press flag

To make sure you get 2x during flag+blades

[idle aurora]

So 1 and under 40 on 2?

[hazy breach]

Ye

[idle aurora]

Ooo see that’s juicy intel 🙂

[hazy breach]

If you have tfd up its more like 50-55ish since you get 2 more globals

[idle aurora]

I was actually holding to 2

Which looking at it now is insane loss of dps

[hazy breach]

Youre still spending combo points during your first dance in blades+flag so you dont need both to be ready at the start

Just enough that its ready when the first ends

[idle aurora]

Another dumb question

When I shadow

Should I evisc backstab

Then cold blood

[pliant topaz]

u dont backstab in dance

[idle aurora]

Err the other one

My brain died

But should I do a evis right after shadow always?

[pliant topaz]

u mean shadow blades?

or flag?

[idle aurora]

Ok sec I need to make sure I’m saying all the right words

So symbols into dance

Then do I evisc sectec or rip sectec

[pliant topaz]

supercharger gives you 2 stacks. you want to make sure to spend 1 stack on sectech the other one is either on evis or coup.

[idle aurora]

I know if sec tec is down evis to get it back up

But if it’s up just send it?

To get on cooldown

[pliant topaz]

if sectech is up, you send it first during dance as long you dont have both coup and fazed up

except hte times where its off cd and you will not be dancing until flag/blades are both up, which u send sectech outside of danec as long as you can get it back by the time you will be using flag

[idle aurora]

I finally started to do this last night lol

And not hold it

[hazy breach]

And you generally should not be sending symbols+dance if your secret technique is on cooldown

[idle aurora]

Oh wait

[hazy breach]

The exception being if its on like 10s cd which you can reduce by a supercharged eviscerate

[idle aurora]

Damnit really

I usually pop symbols and go into dance next always

[hazy breach]

Every dance should have a sectech in it

Preferably at the start, but second finisher works too

Since we have multiple charges of symbols and dance we do not need to use em immediately

[idle aurora]

So dance evisc symbols sec tec?

[hazy breach]

We can hold onto them until more opportune moments without losing anything

Symbols before the eviscerate

[idle aurora]

Ohhhh

[hazy breach]

But yes, either dance at 6+ cp or at 0

[idle aurora]

Yeah ok get like 2 extra seconds

Jesus I didn’t think of that

It’s like a full gcd where no dmg is going out

Now to break bad habits

Thanks eleem!

[hazy breach]

[alpine wraith]

best thing you can do is game hard

you will get used to it

you can also do some cheeky things in some dungeons and places

with getting extra chargers

[hazy breach]

I timed another key today, big gaming

Only a mist 15, but still, +score is +score

[alpine wraith]

i just do +10 cba with other things

well at least sub rogue seems good in pvp

won in eu now in na it is doing well

[keen zenith]

it's the first round it's played so far:P

its not bad though

[alpine wraith]

true actually

the others were outlaw

oh the supercharged Nighty night

inb4 another nerf to evis

[pliant topaz]

sub stonks rising

[wind canopy]

Only 2.12 mil?

#BuffSub

[pliant topaz]

rea

l

[wind canopy]

We’re weak

[alpine wraith]

rea

l

[pliant topaz]

okay but do i sub this

[alpine wraith]

tell them speedshroud is 1 min save

trust

[pliant topaz]

i am very good at gaslighting

i got u

[alpine wraith]

also you can que 2 SoD before flying on the doragon

[wind canopy]

Go big or go home

[alpine wraith]

to get 6 chargers on pull with boss

or well 8

if you count the 2 from actually using SoD too

[hazy breach]

Who needs iron wire anyway

Its not like youre gonna die from random casts going through

[sinful sluice]

just tell them you are assa and swap to sub on count

[alpine wraith]

no dont lie

just speak a lot of good sides of sub

just dont say we do 1 mil only without cds

shhh

[sinful sluice]

its real rogue roleplaying

[tribal blade]

i have to run this at some point

but i'm not looking forward to bricking on 1st pull to the tank dying like the last time i tried 15 NW

[pliant topaz]

oh ym friend has that one

one of my friends is finally doing keys so we might 2 man pug now

we have 15 NW 15 gb now

first pull Nw is really hard

[tribal blade]

yooo big

[tribal blade]

1st time i tried it was with my friend megz and we pugged critecake

the fake critcake

[alpine wraith]

albertocake

[tribal blade]

and he died on 1st pull while she had dropped dome on hijm

[tribal blade]

haha

[long sun]

hello i am in search of help

i recently started playing sub for mythic ansurek prog and im having a hard time anticipating when I'll get combo point refunds with symbols up. There are times when I'll expect to get a refund and I don't, then other times I don't expect to get a refund and I do.

For the latter I recently found out if im talented into 2-target rupture, tics of rupture can proc finishers which is kinda weird. idk if there's a way to play around that

For the former, here's a clip https://www.twitch.tv/shindigwow/clip/ClumsyRealOryxFrankerZ-Bda-xrQshmV-vfin

I send an evis at 8 stored cp's with symbols up and don't get a refund. why is that?

[lilac stag]

I can’t watch your stream but if you’re running replicating shadows it can cause inconsistent delays in cp returns.

[pliant topaz]

its 2 bugs.replicating shadows bug makes it so u can get a refund in the middle of a gcd if u hit 7+ cps which is causing the random refunds.

the 2nd one is a dance/stealth bug that makes shadowcraft not refund cps until after you sod again

[long sun]

Is there any way to play around the replicating shadows bug?

[long sun]

Sorry can you explain this like I'm 5

[spark tusk]

Replicating shadows is broke and makes people punch holes in their walls. it's ok you're not the first

[spark tusk]

No

IIRC for full single target it can be worth dropping the talent just to avoid the bug

even if it sims worse, but I'll defer to the big brain subbers to confirm

[tribal blade]

i haven't simmed it but iirc it's a marginal dps loss

but you don't have to play with the RS bug

[half comet]

what is blizzards history with bugs that affect dps I feel like that would be something that has decent priority

or is it just cuz we're rogue

[lucid jackal]

It's random

Many classes have similar bugs

It's not a rogue specific problem

[tribal blade]

yeah like the big one i know about it is dh

dh has a lot of bugs too

[spark tusk]

Also like, the % of players exposed to these bugs (the player in a position to want to punch a wall when this bug happens) is extremely small

we think it's glaringly obvious and horrible

but we're tiny

[half comet]

thats true i didnt think of that

[tribal blade]

the sad truth is the dev team is obviously small

and they don't have time to fix every single problem

so we literally have to pray they decide to fix sub stuff

over other specs

BUT GOOD NEWS we're the least played spec

so will we get a lot of dev time? nah

[long sun]

RIP but ok that could be technology

Tyty

[half comet]

i started playing wow right before 10.2 i think is when the rogue rework came out and all i was told was that sub was basically always the go to rogue spec and most popular

most popualr for rogue*

then the dust incident happened

[grave abyss]

I don't think that's true at all

[tribal blade]

with RS

w/o RS

so kinda nothing

[strange chasm]

Is that ds or patch

[tribal blade]

patchwerk

oh no wait a second, i think i mixed them up

the lower dps sim is with RS

for me

interesting

[spark tusk]

what did you swa pfor it?

[tribal blade]

improved sht

i think playing with imp sht is a big QoL change

kinda sad we don't have it in M+ build

i accidently made a mists group w/o a shammy last week, and it was pure misery

no imp sht and no skyfury

my energy was in the toilet

[hazy breach]

Ye no skyfury is rough

Luckily all 3 shaman specs are really good

So you have it in most keys

[tribal blade]

i was wondering the whole time "why the fuck does everything feel horrible right now"

[tribal blade]

yeah this is a blessing tbh

because the difference skyfury makes for sub is crazy

the last time i simmed it it gives something like +125k dps

[hazy breach]

Ye its a lot

[tribal blade]

@hazy breach i see you're a TFD gamer too now

hell yeah

[hazy breach]

Ye ive ran tfd in all my keys pretty much

If i didnt its because i accidently had my ST spec on when i did a swappero

[spark tusk]

instead of rs?

[hazy breach]

No instead of WM

[spark tusk]

ah

[hazy breach]

Think RS is too good

And i dont feel like im losing that much cp from the bug

[tribal blade]

yeah you lose quite a bit of cleave if you don't talent into RS

i haven't really been spreading rupture as much as i used to as tanks are gathering

[hazy breach]

Also @tribal blade can you read through the bottom section with the dungeon tips for me and see if you find anything notable missing
https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/subtlety-rogue-pve-dps-mythic-plus-tips

[tribal blade]

lemme see

oh there's a lot here lol

[tribal blade]

on surgeon stitchflesh maybe you can say if people fuck up running the boss through hooks while he's down you can vanish the fixate

this is super niche and uncommon, but on master machinists in SV if you don't have a ranged kick in your comp i suppose you can step>kick the boss every time he runs away

oh on 1st boss of CoT you can pre cloak the debuff before it comes out

on 3rd boss of CoT you could maybe say you can combine sprint+cloak to help out your group and grab as many orbs as possible so your group doesn't need to soak a set

[spark tusk]

this is why I'm in this chat I just learned 3 things I don't know if I'll ever need to use them but they'll be in the back of my head

[hazy breach]

Good stuff

[tribal blade]

last boss of DB too you can step back to the boss after you've dropped a web

[hazy breach]

Ye the spiderman tech

[tribal blade]

yeah that helped me out a ton on that boss when i figured that out lol

[hazy breach]

Of jumping of the platform

Its kinda hard to explain without a video though

[tribal blade]

i have yet to try that, i hear it can get fucked up because of shorter height races

like i'm a dwarf

[hazy breach]

Nah its fine

[tribal blade]

i tried doing it at the start of the season and it didn't work for some reason

[hazy breach]

The only time where it can go wrong is if you jump very late, because when the web goes out you get "gripped" down to the floor

So you can glitch through the wall if you do it very late

[tribal blade]

ahhh gotcha

[hazy breach]

But you can be down there for a second or two without anything happening

[tribal blade]

i have yet to see space be a real problem on that boss yet anyways

[hazy breach]

Ye thats why i didnt mention it

[tribal blade]

main issue on that boss is just damage

[hazy breach]

Its cool tech yes, but its not really needed and is hard to explain in text without it being very longwinded

[tribal blade]

yeah true!

[strange chasm]

I know if you don't cancel the perm tricks buff on NW the last boss if you get sent down the ad cant be hit

[hazy breach]

Oh ye right

[tribal blade]

oh shit i forgot about this lol

that's an important one for sure

the dragons in GB you can also feint>step back to them after the knock goes out

but it's kinda dangerous doing this at times because you can step back into aoe stuff on the ground and die

[hazy breach]

Ye for the most part id just recommend line of sighting

It does a decent chunk of damage even with feint up

Stray bolts can def kill you after it

[tribal blade]

yeah i've killed myself quite a few times trying to use the feint>step tech there

it's definitely much safer to just los

i'm not sure if it's worth saying, but if you're running a no ranged comp and get the charge on 2nd boss in ara you can vanish it

at least i'm pretty sure you can vanish it, i haven't actually done it

[barren wren]

we gottem boys

[warm depot]

gzgz

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[warm depot]

is it dm or trickster for st now

im going back to my roots fuck sin

[pliant topaz]

Trickster for all

[foggy orchid]

Is it crazy to macro dance and sod together. It feels like I’m using them almost always at the same time anyway

[warm depot]

word ty

[hazy breach]

Keyword being almost

You want to be able to cast them individually during your burst (ie the second dance of it)

But outside of that you could macro them ig, i just dont see the point

[foggy orchid]

It looks like the burst always starts with both at the same time and then I always hold symbols for just an extra 2 globals or so after the second dance, meh idk. I just like cutting down my binds wherever I can

[lucid jackal]

U use them separately though

[tribal blade]

do you guys know how to pull the pack after 1st boss in mists through the wall

doing the pygmy thing

[round latch]

I know that dks do it with grip

idk what pygmy is tbh

😅

back on SL i knew druids and hunter and warlocks could do that as well with the same focus target tech but pygmy..

what is pygmy

[alpine wraith]

it is a mob type from cata

the guys with their eyes hidden by the turban

but i have no idea what item he talks about

[round latch]

[swift tinsel]

Pygmy Oil

fish up pygmy suckerfish and alchemists make the oil

[round latch]

so u drink the oil and u get smaller

[swift tinsel]

I think you have to drink 10

iirc

[round latch]

10 to perform the maze pull?

hmm

[swift tinsel]

its an old wotlk consumable

[round latch]

yeah ive googled the details

im just curious what prophet said

how to perform the pull

searching on reddit

nvm found it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRtsxKdIays

cool

@tribal blade

[tribal blade]

ah ok very nice

[round latch]

(no shot those are real btw 😂 )

[tribal blade]

lol literally every streamer ever

ah ok so only spell casters can do it

why did i hear rogues can do it too

[round latch]

the poison dagger throw thingy

im a mechagnome,will test it later on today and confirm

says any 40y range spell could pull but im skeptical

im positive my mage will perform it

dunno about my rogue

[strange chasm]

Sub fine on COT?

Is this a cook

[tribal blade]

run this

sub is pretty miserable atm w/o more symbols charges

[strange chasm]

first dance though

I find I dont get

it enough in a key

[tribal blade]

TFD is very good

if you think about CoT

you get it 1st pull

[strange chasm]

true and 2nd

[tribal blade]

then depending on how your tank pulls and skips you get it for more

[strange chasm]

because of waiting for buff

get it on every eye

[tribal blade]

and then you get it for every pack when you're running around doing the mini game

get it for 2nd boss

it's up a lot p much haha

and iirc you only need 1 proc every ~5 mins for it to be better than WM

[short radish]

Yeah tfd goes hard in cot

So much uptime

[lucid jackal]

TFD I feel is dungeon specific

Feels literally worthless in stonevaults for example

Feels a lot better in stuff like mists

[tribal blade]

i have yet to try using sub in SV

i'm afraid to run that place without iron wire carrying the beginning of pulls

[strange chasm]

ok 2.8 milly

we kinda blasting

w/ aug

[tribal blade]

sub is a lot better now

[narrow shadow]

Hey guys, how is sub in mythic palace?

[lucid jackal]

I'd say its the best spec

for rogue*

[narrow shadow]

Really? All the hype seems to be in assa

[lucid jackal]

Assa is also very good, its one of the best specs in dungeons overall

[narrow shadow]

I find assa in boss fights boring so I wanted to try sub in raid

But not sure how it's performing in mythic

If it's good enough for progression

[lucid jackal]

Idk about progging at this point, but for earlier prog sub was just better on last 2 for example

I'd say overall all 3 rogue specs are basically the same in raid, you can play any of them and they will perform well

Sub has the edge on queen, Idk if it even has the edge on silken court anymore

[narrow shadow]

As long as it's comparable I'll take it

No need to be the top

[tribal blade]

if it makes a difference you're tankier as sub over sin

dude i need to somehow end this not timing a single 15 streak

this has just been the most insane amount of bad luck i have ever had in this game

[lucid jackal]

Well like I said on most fights it's just as good

On the hardest fights, it's just better

[narrow shadow]

Yup, thanks

Will give it a shot

Got a mastery/vers set

[sinful sluice]

does anyone have their own defensive roatation for kyveza?

idk if i have to use cloak on first queensbane or not

[tough knot]

Looks like it's neck and neck on court now

[edgy zenith]

pre-cloak the charge if you get targeted.

if you're running DS, use Evasion for the boom blazes at the end of each intermission

and feint during intermission when you get targeted

[sinful sluice]

ohh right ds had that talent right

should i try out DS for kyveza

[edgy zenith]

no, you should try Sin though

lmao

Sin is much better

for that fight

but if you're stuck on Sub, you should be fine, just triple make sure you're not getting double hit by blazes in end of intermission

you can live 2 blazes with evasion and DS talent, you cant' without

Outlaw is actually very good on that fight too if you wanna play that

[tough knot]

Elusiveness goes hard on that fight

[edgy zenith]

yeah, that is required btw

[tribal blade]

you need elusiveness or you're gonna just get completely dicked during intermissions

because base feint doesn't work on anything

[idle aurora]

Well I got a heroic skarddyns at least

Should I use 2 clickable trinkets?

Or is it best to have one passive

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tepid trellis]

how long is p3 on queen now?

[lucid jackal]

No idea but P1 platform is still a cooldown that very few classes can actually do

Sub is one of them

[tepid trellis]

pretty sure prog wise sub is better, but boss dam wise assa wins

atleast when p3 gets shorter

just 2 fat dm's

[idle aurora]

Are any brd trinkets worth going for

[jaunty umbra]

no

[coarse bridge]

we should always be using sec tech first after 2nd symbols during cds?

[lilac stag]

Yes. You want it supercharged.

Well first or second finisher

[coarse bridge]

maybe its lack of skyfury that makes the timing a little tight

[zenith hollow]

I have my cooldowns in an mrt note as im getting used to timings is there a way to make it scroll as the fight goes on as it is now I either need a really long window or just deal with seeing nothing once its past

[lilac stag]

You should be able to setup Reminders in MRT https://www.method.gg/method-raid-tools-reminders

that way you’re not looking at the list

[sinful sluice]

ahh

why does flag not reset on wipe

its so irretating...

[tepid trellis]

cuz it aint a 2min cd

unfortunately

[sinful sluice]

hope they patch it

i mean they do reset dance so

[tepid trellis]

it doesent reset all stacks

[vale pine]

i think there is a good argument to make 1 min 30 cds on sub reset

and stacks

but well, it is what it is

[tribal blade]

so why exactly don't all cds just reset on a raid boss wipe, i never understood

do they simply not have the technology

[keen dome]

Probably one of those things they never went back and updated as the game changed? Who knows

But it really should

[vale pine]

only 2 min+ cooldowns reset

if you have e.g. 2 stacks of dance

it is technically a 2 min cd

but won't reset

[tribal blade]

bleh it sucks

NEW ARCAAANNNNEEEEEE

neeerrrwwhhh

[round latch]

sub is sus in SV

i didnt like it

(+11)

[round latch]

btw my gnome cant reach easily the animaslashers after 1st boss but its doable

u can make the pull in mists as a gnome

[tribal blade]

ah ok good to know

[sinful sluice]

Whats the best way to dodge kyveza daggers?

Do i have to dodge them inside the middle box

I get hit by balls easily if i stay outside of it

[tribal blade]

yes you want to stay within the middle because if you're too far out you'll get hit by orbs

the best way to dodge is have a countdown set on bigwigs so you know exactly when they're coming out, then watch the direction she's facing right before daggers go out and try to be behind her

if you're really worried the safest thing to do is to move off her so you can very easily dodge the daggers she shoots out if you happen to be in the blast

also as you're dodging

a lot of people make the mistake of moving too much

[sinful sluice]

i see

[tribal blade]

you want to quickly move off any line you're on, then immediately stop and wait for the next lines

[sinful sluice]

the first dagger comes out so fast so i tried standing beside her

[tribal blade]

you don't want to be nonstop moving

[sinful sluice]

but that way i get easily lost and get hit by the orbs

[tribal blade]

it comes with practice, but yeah you want to dodge while staying in melee range of her if possible AND staying within the middle

but i highly suggest if you're early in prog and still learning the fight just focus 100% on dodging

don't worry about doing damage

[sinful sluice]

kyveza gimmicks seems quite easy compared to other bosses

i mean ovinax to be specific

[tribal blade]

princess is a really well designed boss imo

[sinful sluice]

yeah

[tribal blade]

you require 0 weakauras

and it's straight forward

[sinful sluice]

you know when you set portals correctly

you can just let your hand go from keyboard

[tribal blade]

haha yeah

[sinful sluice]

and gets pulled on middle perfectly

it feels so beautiful haha

[tribal blade]

so long as you don't stand too close to the one on her

you'll be fine

[sinful sluice]

the designs

[tribal blade]

the main thing about her is just live

[sinful sluice]

yeah

its quite easy now compared to pre nerf versions

at least feels easy

we tried about 2 hrs today and saw 30%

hopefully can kill tmrw

[tribal blade]

yeah it's not so bad

once you get the gist of the fight

so long as people aim charges correctly and press defensives and dodge

she'll die

[sinful sluice]

i heard the damage was so fucking bad that you couldnt live out even if you used everything

before nerf

[tribal blade]

yeah it was a crazy fight prenerf

they had to 1 tank it in RWF

and use bresses on the tank

[sinful sluice]

haha

[tribal blade]

so they could have the extra dps

[sinful sluice]

mad tactics

[tribal blade]

ovinax was the same way prenerf, really really hard

but i would rather prog princess 1000% over ovinax

any day of the week

[sinful sluice]

oviax was really fun as well

just the boss is way too laggy

[tribal blade]

i wish i could go back in time and prog that fight as sub

i had no idea caustic spatter was the main cause of my lag on it

doing it on reclear as sub and i have WAY less lag when the adds come out now

[sinful sluice]

i heard if you turn off cell and details it helps a lot

main lag comes from details trying to calculate the dot dmg of all classes on adds

[tribal blade]

yeah turning off details usually does help a lot on every fight

my entire raid team set up details specially when there was insane fps drops and lag on queen at the start of the tier

there's a setting where you can turn the rate at which details updates

[sinful sluice]

yeah

[tribal blade]

and turn it to the slowest update possible

that seemed to help

[sinful sluice]

tbh i upgraded my PC just for this boss haha

[tribal blade]

lol fair enough

[sinful sluice]

it kept on sluttering so i couldnt handle it

0 regrets tho

feels so much better to play

[tribal blade]

yeah it makes a big difference

[vale pine]

think sin is just too good on the fight

[tribal blade]

it is really good yeah, but the amount of lag i got playing sin when the adds came out was REALLY bad

i'm doing more dps playing sub on it now

[vale pine]

i mean

you could

play trickster

[tribal blade]

because not losing half my globals when all the adds are out=more deeps 😉

[vale pine]

sry i mean fatebound

[tribal blade]

i think the issue was with caustic

at least that's what scath said

[vale pine]

isn't it caustic in combination with stuff like

[tribal blade]

oh in combination with DS?

i have no idea, but i wouldn't be surprised

BUT prog for ovi is over, so just playing sub on it works well

also the warr on my raid team is really happy to not be parried anymore on the fight hahaha

[vale pine]

i assumed singular focus

to be a big contributor

[tribal blade]

ahhhh yeah that makes sense

[vale pine]

because it creates a shitload of events

[tribal blade]

because the combo of spatter with singular focus creates a metric fuckton of events

[vale pine]

yes, deathstalker in general creates a lot of events

the hero talent is just poorly designed

[tribal blade]

well good thing is i'm playing sub for the rest of prog