that one hasn't
#subtlety
snow birch
What's everyone tought on the changes done on SUB, I'm so confuse I don't know what to think
It feels the same but it's different
Dps sooner on pulls, that's the only positive I can found xd
keen dome
I wish DS was better but trickster. Chefs kiss right now.
thick field
has cloak been changed? it's full immunity to magic effects for 5 seconds right?
i read something somewhere about needing to time it right
real swallow
is sub better than assasiin for m+ now?
sinful sluice
i guess rogue is well balanced after all...
real swallow
haha nice
coarse nexus
is sub better than assasiin for m+ now?
not in higher keys no
but in my experience sub has felt nicer to play up until about +12
real swallow
thanks jimmy
short radish
630, pretty decent gear with transmitter
mental comet
Imagine having a transmitter 
short radish
If it was a heroic transmitter it'd be better 😦
wraith granite
whats a transmitter?
warm aspen
but playing with it feelsbad too
short radish
True
wraith granite
Guys, Legion has a skin that requires a keystone of 15+, isnt that impossible for new players?
I haven't even touched M+ 😆
azure mauve
sub feels good now
proper tusk
pretty sure that means a +5
cos that was listed back before the keystone level squish
+15 became +5
wraith granite
ah ok thanks
hazy breach
has cloak been changed? it's full immunity to magic effects for 5 seconds right?
Its always been ""stronger"" during the first second, but this season there are notable examples of where the first second of cloak works when the second half doesnt for some reason
molten citrus
+15 became +5
the achievement still says +15
alpine wraith
we kinda do decent dmg but not this power of decent dmg
keep in mind this is a log so no aug details krangling
i've beend oing from 1.4 to 2.1m lately depending on dungeon
but that is still far behind enha
young path
So I’m kinda weird and delayed taking my vault item till I had enough gilded crests to immediately max out…
An absolute giga increase from 626 contract…. It had tons of procs and recommend u take a look at it for m+ if you get the opportunity
alpine wraith
ovi nax egg is better
hazy breach
Its a fine trinket yes
short radish
we have 37 parses
I'm huge r1
Biggest fish in the puddle
I do think sub can be better in some dungeons
Cot and dawn for one
Well two.
young path
Speed shroud is insane there
It’s so funny in pugs when people realize the power of the sub rogue shroud
short radish
I think nw has too much trash for sub
alpine wraith
stonevault can also be good
short radish
To overtake assi
alpine wraith
I think nw has too much trash for sub
stitchflesh and last boss mainly but also depends on pulls yea
short radish
Sure there's 3rd boss
hazy breach
Like with the route i used yesterday these are the times i used (or wouldve used ig) shroud for the speed
Thats a lot of time saved just by running faster
alpine wraith
shroud after 1st boss is bis
short radish
Yeh like 30 or 40 seconds saved
alpine wraith
also sub there has a big power
you can stack 2 chargers while dragon is flying
just snap 2 cold ones
alpine wraith
you begin pulls with 6 chargers
alpine wraith
if you do dragon well and pull the cpaks into boss
bleak wind
are you playing with the aoe talents
bleak wind
or I mean DB but ye
alpine wraith
no db no
short radish
Fuck nado
bleak wind
thats trickster right
hazy breach
yeeee
bleak wind
what is the threshold now for evis vs black powder
alpine wraith
10+ but depends on fw too
hazy breach
Around 12 with an average amount of find weakness
alpine wraith
you could say if you did a storm when you had only 1 rotten stack to get fw on all if what someone said that bug was fixed would be ok
hazy breach
But technically it could be lowered to like 9 if you have fw on all targets, but idk not many situations where its worth it to bp
Most of the time the prio is worth more than +2% overall
bleak wind
what about with blades, or did they fix that
alpine wraith
blades make it a bit stronger to bp yes
hazy breach
But blades also makes strikes stronger
So you get less fw uptime
Antiquated ahh debuff fw
sly shore
i guess rogue is well balanced after all...
so you're saying outlaw is the worst
bleak wind
how often do you actually get first dance
hazy breach
Pretty often
But it doesnt matter that much
The alternative is WM, and you need like 1 reset every 4 minutes or something for it to beat wm
bleak wind
cos I am pretty much just doing random 10s for vault and the chain pulling epidemic is worse than covid
hazy breach
Theres atleast a couple of spots every key where you cant chain
tight bloom
Mist is BiS for it
hazy breach
Like grim batol, you get one on pull, one after drakes, one after first boss, one after second boss, one before last boss and probably one or two more across the dungeon, but thats like the minimum
alpine wraith
you have many dungeons where you can sneak chargers too
that also makes sub a bit stronger
apart from tfd
bleak wind
do you also sneak in a storm, bp for macabre stacks at least during first dance
alpine wraith
become the oppresive mfer with 4 or 6 finishers that go to town
could be a win but i dont care to do it
evis hits super hard
hazy breach
do you also sneak in a storm, bp for macabre stacks at least during first dance
Didnt seem worth it in simc when we checked
Feels like it should be a minor gain but 
bleak wind
even just for first dance?
hazy breach
Ye with a dance.remains>8
bleak wind
I would assume it would be better for the longer dance
alpine wraith
you might need to make it more strict
like after consuming all rotten and getting at least x stacks(presuming you already used sec tech and evis so it does not do it too early)
but cba tbh
hazy breach
Also @bleak wind #subtlety message
wicked summit
So is trickster the play in keys? Been playin assassin and I miss sub
hazy breach
Speaking of simc findings
hazy breach
So is trickster the play in keys? Been playin assassin and I miss sub
Yes, wouldnt recommend deathstalker anywhere right now
alpine wraith
yea i also kinda noticed that one a bit
playing around using CB more but didnt think on the 2nd cb in dance
makes it tigher now tho
for the second set of cds onward but seems cool
bleak wind
Also <@215577139653640192> https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/31692...
oh no
is that because of flag stacks or something
hazy breach
is that because of flag stacks or something
Flag is mostly stacked for the first one too, but its flawless stacks
lilac stag
.5 can suck my macro
bleak wind
Flag is mostly stacked for the first one too, but its flawless stacks
speaking of, I noticed if I don't get coup in my first dance it feels very awkward
hazy breach
yep
shell lance
In raid too @hazy breach ?I say trickster!!!!
vale pine
is that because of flag stacks or something
yes flag stacks + flawless form
bleak wind
how big was it, is it worth doing
mental comet
i did an 11 as sub it felt good besides dying on a big pull because healer got stunned 
chrome lake
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vivid cobalt
i've been getting about the same total dps as sub as i do as assa in 8-11's this week. albeit im def better at playing sub but still
being able to get 1.7 as sub makes me not feel guilty about not playing assa even if i could min max higher than that
mental comet
feels same for me but haven't reached 2m+ overalls yet like i can on sin also losing the garrote bonuses kinda meh
vivid cobalt
i hit 1.98 mil as sub in one run but it was a giga chad group with the ret doing like 2.3 or something - i very consistently fall between 1.4-1.6
twilit phoenix
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns.
The following macros are an exception:yaml /cast Cold Blood /cast Secret Technique
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.ret pressing 4 buttons gapping everyone in pug keys is so funny to me
vivid cobalt
what i like about sub tho is the boss damage is nuts, and i think thats overlooked in value sometimes
yeah i might level my ret this weekend finally
mental comet
ye doing like 300k more boss dps as sub than sin
lilac stag
Overall def lower, priority and bosses seems better.
mental comet
sin feel kinda bad on bosses now cuz u cant pool teas b4 a boss now since they auto activate
unless you just stop playing the game and using energy
clever delta
!up
wicked joltBOT
vivid cobalt
sin has always felt kind bad on bosses to me but thats prolly cuz i started out playing sub
mental comet
i rly need to get a transmitter tho next week 4 sure
mental comet
i've only seen 2 transmitters drop this tier clearing both diff every week since week 1 and stopped raiding b4 got to mythic princess :S
one was this week it dropped on normal but guy wouldn't sell it
vale pine
how big was it, is it worth doing
not too big
shell lance
@vale pine i have check the macro and don’t have space
mental comet
!sod
wicked joltBOT
Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs
vale pine
<@194804407706189824> i have check the macro and don’t have space
you can just make a macro with a modifier for cold blood
mental comet
is it possible to drop tornado for first dance or something else? idk find like i can't get good usage out of tornado
vale pine
thats personal taste
grave abyss
trickster tricks is pretty comfy, but you could definitely roll blackjack + don't be suspicious for M+
along with stillshroud
mental comet
i like blackjack
tricks doesn't work 99% of the time anyway it feels like
literally pull aggro from applying a garrote as sin and autoing once with tricks up
bleak wind
its most likely proximity aggro from the mobs next to it, since you are only attacking one target (or I guess 3 with garrote)
mental comet
idk i don't think that a garrote application should pull aggro over a mob that was hit with D&D/bloodboil or thunderclap or avenger's shield
also that part of tricks where it seems to ignore your first attack like if you ambush/shadowstrike a mob b4 tank touches it the mob hits you insta
steel horizon
Yeah i always found that weird
spark tusk
I know they reset down to 2 on boss pull, but do they reset on starting a key?
I imagine so
velvet nova
whats up with kyveza M logs playing trickster?
alpine wraith
I know they reset down to 2 on boss pull, but do they reset on starting a key?
they also reset on starting key to 2
alpine wraith
whats up with kyveza M logs playing trickster?
trickster is a bit better on st now too mostly because deathstalker has some bugs
also no parry pog
spark tusk
With our higher emphasis on sectec now, do we still sectec first finisher in dance even if we have 4 stacks of blade and fazed up?
and then coup after? or coup first
velvet nova
also no parry pog
say less
spark tusk
also no parry pog
The ability to just ignore parry and be wherever is huge, I feel like I've just had some difficulties seeing where some bosses are facing esp kyveza who is smaller
dim lagoon
is supercharger bugged for Eviscerate? I'm seeing some weird low damage eviscerates when supercharged
merry agate
Man that TfD 12 seconds dances... sometimes i even feel so generous to throw out a cheap shot 
lilac stag
With our higher emphasis on sectec now, do we still sectec first finisher in dan...
Yes. Juice the finishers and get it on CD
tier set strong
lilac stag
is supercharger bugged for Eviscerate? I'm seeing some weird low damage eviscer...
Shouldn’t be. Logs?
dim lagoon
trying to isolate it on a dummy presently
lilac stag
Which dummy?
dim lagoon
Kelpfist
lilac stag
Which zone
dim lagoon
raid dummy in Dornogal
dim lagoon
k
carmine portal
Only started playing Sub recently, is it me or does Deathstalker feel beyond underwhelming?
alpine wraith
yea just shelve it
carmine portal
Thematically I love the sound of it but man, it's ASS (i could be playing it wrong, but still)
wicked summit
Hey quick question, after all the big CDs are sent ona big aoe pack do we just spam shuriken/black powder? Or is rupture prio?
hazy breach
is supercharger bugged for Eviscerate? I'm seeing some weird low damage eviscer...
That was the case for a while yes, but its fixed now
lilac stag
Thematically I love the sound of it but man, it's ASS (i could be playing it wro...
Swap to trickster and enjoy eating good.
hazy breach
If youre looking at logs from last wednesday/thursday then yes supercharger wasnt working on evis
hazy breach
Big bonk big fun
alpine wraith
yea made a simple one for the meanwhile this weekend i will make the boss ones and a more in depth ones
twilit phoenix
pog
lilac stag
@alpine wraith is this the first time in forever that you’re not running a cooked build?
twilit phoenix
does premed trigger from shadow dance?
hazy breach
Yes
alpine wraith
<@131174440183529472> is this the first time in forever that you’re not running ...
they deleted everything that was remotely interesting
apart from the good builds
hazy breach
Thats the reason why we can delay our shadow blades in the opener/burst since premed makes you get full cp with your first strike anyway
lucid jackal
It's so ez rn lol
dim lagoon
it appears I was mistaken - man that took awhile to isolate.
twilit phoenix
haven't played sub since wod bro
hazy breach
I still wouldnt really call it an easy spec, lots of unintuitive things about it
But ye its better
round latch
but kinda fun how fast paced it is
its literally stirke ==>flag==>evisc=>vanish=>strike
what is involved in this
twilit phoenix
its literally stirke ==>flag==>evisc=>vanish=>strike
round latch
<:peepo_smile:1288214711871078503>
outlaw is too storng in u,the faster u remove it the better
hazy breach
I wasnt really the biggest snd hater out there, but man does the opener feel way better now than before
twilit phoenix
outlaw is too storng in u,the faster u remove it the better
never bro
hazy breach
Only thing i dislike is that if you dont get a coup proc after sectech in your burst your second sectech ends up being delayed
cedar rock
woah i just checked the raid rankings and it looks like sub is up there now. How is it doing in keys ?
dim lagoon
any reason why you shouldn't macro flag and shadow blades together? I know the rotation guide has you using flag earlier in your rotation but i'm kinda wondering why
hazy breach
any reason why you shouldn't macro flag and shadow blades together? I know the ...
Think of flag as your setup
lucid jackal
Thats the reason why we can delay our shadow blades in the opener/burst since pr...
.
hazy breach
And blades+2x dances+trinkets as your cds
dim lagoon
yea but flag just increases your mast - so why not boost that during the double SD of your opener instead of using it earlier?
hazy breach
Or well, its 12+12
dim lagoon
so we're just trying to get a couple of boosted ticks of rupture out of that extra duration
hazy breach
For some reason they didnt lower its duration when they lowered blades duration from 20>16
Well blades makes you get full cp with every builder
But youre already getting that for your first strike in dance from premed
So you dont need to cast it until after you've used that premed
Otherwise you would waste premed
dim lagoon
my thought on a simplified opener being, SS, Evisc, Vanish, SS, Rupture, pot/racial/trinket/Shadow Blades/Flag/, SD, ....
hazy breach
Well if you flag before the first evis
Youll have more mastery stacks already
When you press your cds
And it still lasts the entire duration of your other cds
dim lagoon
mkay
what about the 3 minute mark when your going into your 2nd window - use together or apart?
pliant topaz
its the same concept
hazy breach
twilit phoenix
are you basically just pooling double dance until your 1.5 mins come back up?
dim lagoon
I don't no - I usually only have 1 dance for the 2nd window
hazy breach
This is the opener with graphics from wowhead, but your non opener bursts are the same execpt you skip the eviscerate
So its flag at high cp > rupture > go
lucid jackal
Only thing i dislike is that if you dont get a coup proc after sectech in your b...
Only thing I hate is your cold blood findings
hazy breach
are you basically just pooling double dance until your 1.5 mins come back up?
You shouldnt need to sit on 2 dance charges no
pliant topaz
wait the cb stuff is public? i thought we hadnt pushed it yet kekw
hazy breach
But when you press flag you should have 1 charge and your other should have atleast like 40s left on it
hazy breach
wait the cb stuff is public? i thought we hadnt pushed it yet kekw
I mentioned it
pliant topaz
LMFAO
hazy breach
I'm in your walls
Im having handymen over tomorrow morning so you might wanna consider moving
Or theyll saw through you
lucid jackal
hazy breach
I don't no - I usually only have 1 dance for the 2nd window
The whole concept of sub revolves around making sure you always have 2 dances and 2 symbols for your flag+blades window
And then trying to squeeze out as many symbols and dances inbetween those as possible
While still making sure you have them for the burst
vivid cobalt
whats the cold blood tech?
hazy breach
But its better to "miss a dance" outside of cds
Then to not have 2 whenever flag and blades is up
If you had to choose
pliant topaz
whats the cold blood tech?
u manually CB the 2nd sectech during flags
dim lagoon
I've macro'd my Symbols to SD - for the sake of simplicity. Is there an argument for using symbols outside of SD?
hazy breach
Yes, there are times where you will not have enough time to farm dance cdr but still need to use a symbols
vivid cobalt
u manually CB the 2nd sectech during flags
why is this?
pliant topaz
because 2nd sectech does more damage than the first
more flawless form stacks + more flag stacks
vivid cobalt
ah duh
pliant topaz
and theres no longer dust to reduce cb cd
hazy breach
Its only like 2 more flag stacks
pliant topaz
so ure not losing casts
lilac stag
more headaches for .5%
hazy breach
But its atleast 7 flawless stacks, since 2 from disorienting strikes and 5 from coup
Probably another one from a natty proc too
pliant topaz
one from sectech itself
clever delta
!up
wicked joltBOT
hazy breach
Oh ye sectech too, so 8 extra stacks, thats ~24% more damage
pliant topaz
big stonks
pliant topaz
Oh ye sectech too, so 8 extra stacks, thats ~24% more damage
i gotta push up my gb 13 today eleem. is it sub in gb time?
i swear if i have a ppal the silence isnt even tht big right? right? 
hazy breach
i gotta push up my gb 13 today eleem. is it sub in gb time?
#subtlety message
The speed shroud goes hard in gb
I came to the conclusion that im probably just gonna send a kidney on a caster and possibly a cheap shot before we start aoe stopping
vivid cobalt
can u actually skip packs or just use for speed
hazy breach
In the one i linked we skip the first 3, but its mostly for speed
You obviously could skip stuff with it, but thats not sub exclusive
round latch
So its flag at high cp > rupture > go
in keys do we really start storming into rup before sending cds?Isnt that a bit too slow
whats the deal with ruptures anyway
hazy breach
Without db rupture aint that huge
The "all targets ruptured before flag" thing was with db, which is like +35% to rupture damage with finality and all included
pliant topaz
In the one i linked we skip the first 3, but its mostly for speed
yeah theres 3 really goos uses there
hazy breach
yeah theres 3 really goos uses there
If you skip the first 3 mobs (which are kinda ass anyway) theres 4 though
First, after drake, after first boss and after second boss
pliant topaz
idk thats a good lust. first 3 + dragon + second 3
gives u good lust timing
then the nexet pack is small again to get back cds
lilac stag
i gotta push up my gb 13 today eleem. is it sub in gb time?
Speed shroud ftw
pliant topaz
oh and one thing ill say, I think finality and DB are stupid and boring BUT, they do improve a lot of things i wish the spec had.
finality + db improve prio by quite a bit. its so weird that sub has such horrible prio (unless deathstakler, but that thing can die)
it also makes my filler / maintenance time more meaningful with ruptures being more meaningful
it also makes my evis's hit bigger and big evis = big happy for me
and lastly, it makes sub scale better to higher keys if rupture is actually an impactful source of damage
strange chasm
Sin is so stupid good in GB
dim lagoon
kinda wish snap shotting was a thing again - your rupture's would be massive
swift tinsel
yeah its kinda antithetical to a cooldown burst spec identity
left ledge
Does fazed only work for sub rogue applying it
Or does it just debuff the boss to not parry anything
swift tinsel
the tooltip just says "your attacks" but not sure
left ledge
Yeah I assumed so
left ledge
Yeah
Ok nice
Sub rogue utility
Now let’s never talk about it again
Works as intended
shy ermine
Still higher prio than replicating shadows
alpine wraith
on raid combat yes on some things but not everything
on dungeons you dont get parried
tame terrace
do we still coup first in dance if its up?
like save coup, then dance coup sec tech?
round latch
im here hitting the dummy for a couple of hours trying to understand how trickster dmg is coming out and i still dont like coup de grace
it feels so wrong man
crisp cradle
!wa
tame terrace
is this supposed to be with flawless form NOT up or with it up
since the bp line above says when its not up
left ledge
Yes
Bp when it’s not up
Storm on 3 or more when it’s up
You want it up to cleave with evis
Backstab and strike apply it
charred sandal
yo, does sectec dmg snapshot the moment u cast it or the moment it hits?
round latch
each sec tech hit benefits from the combat state u currently are
if u press sec tech and lets say ur trinket or ur dance drops it doesnt benefit the amps
charred sandal
so if i press sectec and then right before clones hit press trinket it gets amped?
round latch
yes it benefits from the trinket
charred sandal
regarding coldblood id assume it covers both the initial hit and the clones?
round latch
yeah it covers the entirety of the 3 part atk
its 3 part atk im not tripping
right mr @hazy breach
(sectech that is)
charred sandal
it is
round latch
im kinda multitasking atm,not fully focused sry
charred sandal
no worries thanks for the info
round latch
u r welcome fam
sick jackal
does it matter how fast i do my transmitter?
alpine wraith
yea sec tech is 3 hits
solar charm
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
uneven scarab
does it matter how fast i do my transmitter?
Yesno
sick jackal
thanks!
bright sundial
sry for asking but hows sub rn after the 11.0.5 patch compared to before?
pliant topaz
its a bit stronger in raid
its a lot more versatile in keys
trickster is very very fun
deathstalker equally dogshit (fun wise)
inner meadow
sub is the most honest rogue spec
no poisons
no guns
just shadow damage going hard
tame terrace
no poisons
idk u apply poisons just like any other rogue
inner meadow
dark brew makes it shadow dmg tho
left ledge
sub is the most honest rogue spec
inner meadow
not as cheap as real poisons tho
twilit phoenix
do we time vanish with anything after the opener?
like, do we hold flag/blades until vanish is up?
uneven scarab
No vanish doesnt really do anything now
Its more of a defensive
Its used in the opener mainly for premed just to speed it up
twilit phoenix
ahh
got it, ty king
what are you guys macroing transmitter with?
separate bind?
uneven scarab
can macro it to flag, and try and pick it up right as you enter dance
I honestly just manually press it right before flag otherwise ill forget to do the task lmfao
edgy zenith
flag works perfectly fine if you slam a jump immediately after jump no matter what the task actually is
that way you can get the 2 jumps before sectech
and orb you can always get in time if you send on flag
velvet nova
also no parry pog
yeah, i'll keep playing sub on prog. feels much better than assa
sinful zephyr
Does it make sense to switch back to sub from sin without transmitter? I feel like there are no good alternatives
lethal gale
Outside of dawnbreaker is it worth to play around with the first dance?
play around as in wait the timer out
not sure if its even much a gain over wm
small prism
with coup the grace, does combo points matter or is it always 5 combo points?
alpine wraith
it is quite decent vs wm
rugged condor
does anyone have 2 sectech macros? 1 CB and 1 without? im looking at silken court logs and it looks like they hold sectech because of cold blood
sinful sluice
does starting with full supercharge stacks make a huge difference?
lilac stag
You can only start with 2
lilac stag
Encounters reset it
alpine wraith
it resets to 2
lilac stag
does anyone have 2 sectech macros? 1 CB and 1 without? im looking at silken cour...
Or you just don’t macro.
rugged condor
yeah, not macroing is an option
lilac stag
Just depends what your brain can sort out easier after how many times pressing the macro for both.
vale pine
(sectech that is)
yes secret only gets benefits when the buff is up
means there is no snapshotting
round latch
means there is no snapshotting
where are my fuuguides
(its thursday but im working double shift tommorow,wont be able to ask)
keen dome
Hell yeah
velvet nova
why do i get random combo points when i'm not using any spell? for example i use backstab, it gives me 4 cp and 1 second later i get another 3
keen dome
Wait is Recuperator not broken anymore?
vale pine
they fixed it, yes
keen dome
Oh my god
vale pine
its good
keen dome
I'm so happy.
vale pine
makes up for the now lackluster vanish healing
keen dome
Yeah. Pretty strong constant heal is nice.
keen dome
Hell yeah! nice work
vale pine
nicuu, big gz
weak oracle
umm,, I just wonderin do we need to pooling dance before we use big cds in changed sub? I played .5 sub first yesterday and felt dance is lacking more than before 🙂
azure quartz
What week auras do people use for sub-trickster? I've used luxthos for a bunch of other classes and it's been fine but it doesn't really track anything for the trickster talents which is annoying
lilac stag
!wa
lilac stag
lE’s BiS
merry agate
recuperate 
who would have thought we would ever see the day it works 
what a time to be alive
keen dome
It's a good day to be a rogue
spark tusk
lE’s BiS
I need to revise my trickster stuff, really just escalating blade I need to remove the forceful glow imo, and remove the sectec instruction
unique nest
So uuuh how does it work now ? We used to send shadow dance when symbols were up but now that we have 3 charges of symbols ? do we send every 30 sec using 2 charges every burst ?
spark tusk
and just have a way to indicate if you have fazed or not, more subtle as now with the changes it's not as directive as it was
pre patch
spark tusk
So uuuh how does it work now ? We used to send shadow dance when symbols were up...
SecTec is your new master
sectec determines the cadence of everything
except flag, that determines the cadence of sectecs
So you use sectec on CD, and before sectec you send either symbols, dance, or both, if you'd have 2 charges of each by your next flag
a good rule of thumb is if flag is 30sec away, don't send symbols/dance with sectec, hold them. If flag is 20sec away, don't use sectec until flag
https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/1271971289396936735 for more info on opener and such
unique nest
Ok so there is a time when you use sectech naked then, when close to flag and low on Symbols/SD charges
spark tusk
Most of the time you won't send a naked sectec, btu yes, you will have naked sectecs here and there
spark tusk
Just depends on cdr
Btw has being able to reference the charge numbers helped at all?
If you ended up using the WA
unique nest
I was trying using sectech as master on rashanan mythic but i get much more cdr on sectech thnaks to the adds. so i sometimes deplete all my charges pretty quickly
lilac stag
Btw has being able to reference the charge numbers helped at all?
I don’t think it hurts. Idk if I like how it’s displayed.
spark tusk
Do you mean how the charges are represented, or do you mean just visual placement etc?
Hard to represent it without numbers because the partial charges matter, I think
and I can't reasonably do a partial semi-bar without creating new auras
lilac stag
No comment at this time. 
lilac stag
Mmhm
spark tusk
I'm more just thinking about as experienced players work with it, do you notice things about "the numbers seem right to send when they are X" or w/e
lilac stag
I need to let it digest a bit more
spark tusk
yeah
Same to you @pliant topaz if you've had a chance to look at the WA while playing
uncut socket
!log
pliant topaz
I'm more just thinking about as experienced players work with it, do you notice ...
i havent had time to change the apl timers into it yet, probably wont have time for another week or two but can see it being very uyseful
only a 13 mist but hey got 2 people DMing me if subs back LOL
wind canopy
only a 13 mist but hey got 2 people DMing me if subs back LOL
Check DMs
pliant topaz
wind canopy
spark tusk
wind canopy
https://tenor.com/view/frodo-keep-your-secrets-alright-then-lotr-gif-12907121
Check DMs
spark tusk
you do it??!
pliant topaz
ITS DEAD?
alpine wraith
stealthi free
tepid trellis
took 9 pulls tonight
spark tusk
GRATS
hazy breach
Gzz
wind canopy
Grats
native hawk
toxic swan
any sub rogue strummers on atm?
idle aurora
So is it ok to trickster for both m+ and single? I’m already not understanding the spec and learning two diff rotations :0
Or which is better for both
umbral apex
Trickster is the play for both
rugged condor
is nimble flurry around the player like blade flurry
pliant topaz
took 9 pulls tonight
gj mr racoon! its lost ark time now! time to prog new raid
tepid trellis
already cleared that
pliant topaz
bro??
tepid trellis
is nimble flurry around the player like blade flurry
yes
shell lance
well i made 80 with my rogue ^^
lilac stag
gz
alpine wraith
ah we got ky veza to 1.2%
lilac stag
Close
alpine wraith
i was blasting too
idle aurora
Does anyone know a good YouTube video to learn sub? My horrible ADHD reading a rotation guide nothing is retained.
alpine wraith
you can check mine i did an initial one on this patch
alpine wraith
you will get used to it
alpine wraith
yea same as my nick
idle aurora
Thanks man!!!
mighty delta
how we feelin in m+ everyone
im scared to go sub but ik the changes made us half decent
sin just feels more in control
lilac stag
How can you say it feels more in control if you haven’t played sub?
uncut bloom
sin just feels more in control
What does that even mean?
lilac stag
people come in here with some alphabet soup trying to ask if they can play non meta spec.
mighty delta
see was that so hard lol
lilac stag
Past year what?!!
You said you’re fucking scared
So that would leave one to believe you ain’t touched in the the past 2 weeks
mighty delta
ok
tepid trellis
Sub is fine in keys. It’s not assa level tho
pale burrow
Sub is fine in keys. It’s not assa level tho
above law? 
alpine wraith
sub has cool things it can do
we have big boi burst and can also stock resources for when ti is needed
oh and very tanky
haughty mural
tribal blade
i feel like the 1 change trickster needs is UB to proc off storm
not needing to backstab in aoe=good
being able to storm+BP in huge pulls while proccing UB and coup=good
wind canopy
I’m guessing it’s to basically have some “skill expression” and thought into keeping it up
grave abyss
I'm guessing that blizzard just makes shit without thinking about how it would impact a rotation
tribal blade
I’m guessing it’s to basically have some “skill expression” and thought into kee...
i feel like trickster already has quite a bit to manage
wind canopy
i feel like trickster already has quite a bit to manage
Yeah, but to do something trigger nimble that isn’t mindless in AoE as well. Technically sin and outlaw are doing the same with their versions of BF
lethal thorn
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
foggy egret
hey guys the wowhead guy just says to use BP outside flawless form, isnt there a target cap where we switch to bp even in cds?
pliant topaz
12
lavish yarrow
2nd 12 timed as sub, i still do a million mistakes but slowly getting it
That’s a lot of deeps
alpine wraith
cot is quite good for sub
i've had some good 1.8m runs but if fights get long it can go down fast
slate marlin
ye pulls between 1st and 2nd boss were atrocious
flat warren
Excuse me i need a macro for do shadowstep on the alliance battle standar plz
tepid trellis
which one?
tribal blade
trying to break into 14s now
hazy breach
Any first platform cd enjoyers
This is only on the guardian tbf, im not doing that much on the beam guy 
(this is across the entire raid, not just one pull)
pliant topaz
pretty sure legaly that counts as a hate crime what youre doing to the gaurdian
tepid trellis
Any first platform cd enjoyers
i even have Akaaris soul down there helping
hazy breach
i even have Akaaris soul down there helping
I was dead one pull and said "youre prob gonna get two portals on first platform", raid leader said nah weve done it with one dead before its fine
tepid trellis
boss flops in p3 now
its actually crazy
just dies before you need to kill third add wave
warm aspen
cot is quite good for sub
cot goated until last boss
then, you coup charge into balls xDDDD
tame stratus
gz on Ansurek @tepid trellis
tepid trellis
tyty
tame stratus
Sub is better than Sin for prog on her right?
They end up with the same overall, but in my head dmg profile should be better
left ledge
which one?
the bad one in p1
idk
this bitch
got the fattest ass ive seen
on a wow boss
but somehow her hitbox
is one of the smallest ive ever dealt with
tepid trellis
the bad one in p1
not sure i know what that is xD
tepid trellis
that one is so chill tho
- you can kinda bait those pools whereever
it donesent really matter at all
doesent*
tepid trellis
pop just before roots
tepid trellis
just wait for the coup charges
left ledge
its way too small in p1
tepid trellis
Sub is better than Sin for prog on her right?
i think so yeah
i think sub is hands down better
left ledge
yeah im waiting for coup
doing coup into sectec just before roots
so that clones hit the roots
tepid trellis
i meant for the coup charges that kills you during web blades
tepid trellis
xD
left ledge
i just find the hitbox annoying
cant hit her without killing myself
and we have these stupid delayed ones too
topaz agate
the hitbox isnt that bad
tepid trellis
i almost got killed today with coup charging me into blades
topaz agate
ovinax hitbox is worse imo
left ledge
ovinax hitbox is worse imo
idk i didnt have trouble on ovinax
but i played sin on that
kind of just didnt care where i was
left ledge
i never stood there
too cursed
i also played that boss with some shit weakaura that reduced my fps
and i didnt even know about it
fps legit dropped to 1 every time swirls came out
so i guess i couldnt even shift my attention to hitbox
topaz agate
we figured out so many fps saving techniques through this prog lmao
never had my game so smooth even on queen
left ledge
yeah
my game super smooth now
we also went through a lot of fixes
that WA script really saved a lot
topaz agate
biggest one imo
is restarting game before raid and during the break
wow memory leak is crazy
i assume its the combat log
also turned off auto logging and advanced combat logging
left ledge
does that circle people get from soaking do anything
ive ran into it to kill myself a few times now
and it barely does any damage
hazy breach
If you have soaked before yes
left ledge
soaked what before
tepid trellis
does dmg but not alot
left ledge
im not a popper so
hazy breach
If youve popped before
hazy breach
Yes
left ledge
hazy breach
If youve popped its gonna oneshot you though
tepid trellis
hug boss press backstab
topaz agate
if you havent soaked
i pop first bomb so im in hell for the rest of p1
3rd pop is claustrophobic
clever delta
@pliant topaz u r on silk right? are you playing sub?
pliant topaz
yea
clever delta
im thinking about playing sub there as assa feel kinda assa and wanna play sub for queen anyway
spark tusk
I think I saw it mentioned earlier, is the first dance worth playing around in m+?
and worth taking?
hazy breach
and worth taking?
Yes, but id recommend not worrying about it
Even with many chain pulls its still a lot better than weaponmaster if you just gets a handful of resets across the dungeon
And pretty much every dungeon has multiple places where youll get it guaranteed
pliant topaz
I think I saw it mentioned earlier, is the first dance worth playing around in m...
yeah it feels great
topaz agate
people hate sub that much?
pliant topaz
on NA they seem to
hazy breach
Very poorly, but that had nothing to do with me
Like our tank leaped+changed first boss cot when we were still super far away
So we got gripped but didnt reach the circle before it ticked again
Just instantly killing 3 people 💀
topaz agate
wait thats cursed lmao
hazy breach
And another run had my tank die from circles on second boss siege three times in a row
Lfg is truly a mysterious place
pliant topaz
Just instantly killing 3 people 💀
i did not know that was even possible LMFAO. thats gotta be the dumbest thing ive ever seen
warm aspen
Like our tank leaped+changed first boss cot when we were still super far away
LOL and this is why adhd ppl(me) can never play tanks
rushing for no reason ending in catastrophic results
is our middle name
tribal blade
@pliant topaz i saw zerocool's running w/o a trace on sin
i tried it out
i really like it
hazy breach
6s feels a little too long sometimes, but ye it goes hard
In dawnbreaker you get it almost every pull
topaz raptor
pretty good in mists too
spark tusk
good night sweet prince
pliant topaz
good night sweet prince
twilit phoenix
anyone have a good transmitter WA?
spark tusk
God damn graham chose violence tonight
tribal blade
God damn graham chose violence tonight
😉
just failed a 13 CoT
and the healer said he's never had to heal a rogue this much
and i was the lowest damage taken in the key
so i'm confused
twilit phoenix
damn
south seal
Should've taken less damage clearly
tribal blade
@spark tusk what're we doing about this guy
spark tusk
<@228712200385200130> what're we doing about this guy
wdym
tribal blade
it's another spell i want to see go
spark tusk
I mean I'm keeping the WA 😛
steel horizon
what if they just removed the charge time for tornado 🤔
tribal blade
it's sad about sepsis, the original spell before SL was released was mega sexy
and then they had to make it a shadow of itself because it was "too good"
tribal blade
what if they just removed the charge time for tornado 🤔
i think just remove nado completely
give us something new
it doesn't work with sub anymore
round latch
good night sweet prince
tribal blade
interesting can anyone give some insight
into rshams being in general the best healer for keys, but at the very high end in R1 keys disc priests are the best
does it boil down to fort buff
like actually
pliant topaz
disc damage is very stonks, pi for enhance is turbo giga stonks. and mitigation is often better than raw healing throughput
tribal blade
oh that's right i forgot about PI
round latch
its actual preventing coz u shield stuff,they dont take dmgk
pliant topaz
pet can absorb a lot of admage going out like COT void rushes
their ramp is really strong for the type of damage that comes in some of these keys too
and it combos really well with ppal
round latch
enh sham is balanced
tribal blade
their ramp is really strong for the type of damage that comes in some of these k...
mmmm
i think they might have cleared that mists before the nerf
tribal blade
yeah they did
pliant topaz
was something special
tribal blade
when people get max ilvl do you think 20s are gonna be possible
tribal blade
yeah probably
tribal blade
oh i don't know shit about the upcoming patch
tribal blade
huge
wind canopy
good night sweet prince
It could come back...
covert anchor
pliant topaz
yeah they look dope! cant wait
lucid jackal
we are so back
Did u see the outlaw glyphs
For pistol shot
Plunderstorm reward ⁉️
pliant topaz
i saw them announced! but havent seen the animations!
seems really cool though!
fun idea
didnt know it was plunderstorm reward though huh
molten citrus
idk if they announced where they come from yet
spark tusk
It could come back...
Versions are maintained on wago, I can flip back if I need to
pliant topaz
soon we are gonna get sectech glyphs!
that give us kyvezas reaper animation
trust
warm aspen
sub needs a more clear identity tbh
like
are we warlock shadow
or spriest/void shadow
round latch
sub needs to remind mfkers why its feared as the most deadly spec
tribal blade
@pliant topaz ok timed a 13 CoT with sub
i prefer sub in CoT so much more than sin
holy
pliant topaz
its decent if u dont have a ppal but its mostly the prio that i really like in there
pliant topaz
sub feels alot better yeah but the sins prio is just insane
and every pack has something u really wanna kill kinda
havent tried sub in a high enough SV yet either
i think i did a 12 and i did 2.1M no aug which was kinda nice
tribal blade
damn nice
SV is another dungeon where iron wire is really good
i casted feint 60 times in this CoT
goddamn
pliant topaz
its kinda weird now. sin has alot better uncapped aoe (eventhough caustic/CT are reduced at 5 I belive?)
so like sin kinda blasts in those keys
I kinda wanna try some DS sub in some of those super big pull dungeons like NW/SV
DS has a lot better prio too
warm aspen
oh actually in SV
on those pulls that are just a bunch of dwarfs and no big mobs
wtf do u even flag lol
pliant topaz
something that lives a bit ig
tribal blade
when the key's high enough those mobs will live long enough usually
warm aspen
yeah it's literally just like 12 of the same pisslow hp mobs lmao
yeah ig i gotta find ppl to get into the 12s and 13s with
so far i got a prot pali buddy and that's it
feelsbad
tribal blade
yeah if you're doing like 10-11s those mobs die really fast
warm aspen
im at the point where i dont even wanna use anything beyond a pot for 11
tribal blade
so far i got a prot pali buddy and that's it
the hardest thing to find for a push group is a decent tank
warm aspen
but i cant get 12s
tribal blade
so you're already ahead!
warm aspen
yeah guy's cracked but his wife ragequit after pushing title s4 df, otherwise i'd have tank + healer carrying my ass lmao
tribal blade
yeah title pushing breaks a lot of people
warm aspen
if they still were a duo we'd be able to just grab some hobo aug player off the street and we'd be set 😦
tribal blade
you don't wanna run with an aug
trust
it's only good if you have good coordination
warm aspen
i mean it'd be a premade
tribal blade
true
warm aspen
trying to get a buddy who ints every key on lock to swap aug rn lmao
tribal blade
someone who ints every key playing aug
although playing aug would technically be simpler i guess
but your mistakes as aug are compounded a lot more than a regular dps
warm aspen
LUL the guy's a retired havoc main
guild put him on lock duty for raid so he's playing it in keys too
he's like dying inside from trying to do mechanics as immobile ranged caster kekw
he legit swapped dracthyr first thing this patch to at least get double jump back
tribal blade
he's like dying inside from trying to do mechanics as immobile ranged caster kek...
oh yeah that's massive pain, that's why every class i play has mobility
any time i play a class with 0 mobility i hate life
muted agate
short radish
im thinking about playing sub there as assa feel kinda assa and wanna play sub f...
why not feeling the assi for court
vale pine
you shrimply need to belive <:prayge:803711491021733888>
+1 would love to have more pleasing animations like on princess
grizzled hornet
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
molten citrus
Has anyone tried the new ring yet?
The 11.0.7 ring?
molten citrus
Idk if PTR is even available it’s only been available for like a day or something
formal helm
Idk
molten citrus
Ask again in a week or two probably lol
formal helm
That's why I'm asking
The effects look kinda neat tho?
formal helm
Ask again in a week or two probably lol
Yessir
🫡
molten citrus
That's why I'm asking
The effects look kinda neat tho?
Yeah I mean it’s probably good just going off of the ring they added in DF similar to this
keen dome
Yeah
Building on something rather than a fresh thing isn't a bad idea. I hope they avoid some of the longer issues of the DF one (like us using it forever)
formal helm
Building on something rather than a fresh thing isn't a bad idea. I hope they av...
I honestly didn't even mind it
formal helm
Yeah I mean it’s probably good just going off of the ring they added in DF simil...
ya, will probably be nice
keen dome
Blizz re-visiting stuff and doing refinement is good and cool. Makes me happy to see because it's how we get strong staples.
gray zephyr
Anybody playing with Concotion: Kiss of Death? I have champion one in my bags and at 619 it sims better than hero crystal at 623 (looking at number probably even better than 626)
tulip gorge
on how many targets is it worth using black powder over nimble flurry?
lilac stag
@vale pine got any of those 11.0.7 Void Elf sims? (Kidding)
tulip gorge
wow even after the BP buff
tidal python
Do you guys happen to know why the simc website is still reporting numbers expecting 11.0.2 talents?
tidal python
The profiles are up to date though, which means the sim is just broken lmao
pale burrow
I heard
sub
is
back
you guys are meta
where are the fireworks
do we have a stand that sells some winner turkey legs
vale pine
you guys are meta
we are meta?
vale pine
The updated talents haven’t been pushed
koji iirc accapted the pr yesterday
so possibly done tomorrow
pale burrow
we are meta?
You guys are banging on logs
vale pine
oh yes, sub does well on logs
but this does not mean it is meta
people stay away from the spec sadly
even if its good
sly shore
tested the first part of NW on an 11 as sub vs assa last night
and sub absolutely shits on assa for boss dps
but assa is so astronomically far ahead on aoe it's not even close
sinful sluice
is KR server the only server where its totally fucked?
everyone got disconnected on raid
keen dome
Sub is always meta in my heart.
tidal python
At least if you see a sub rogue in the wild you can probably expect the person to actually know how to play the spec