subtlety

[keen dome]

Nah, criticsm is good, esp when it's constructive. I think it's important to look at the whole picture.

[alpine wraith]

unlikely many of the team has 20 year tenure

most of them will be 5 or less

game dev is soul crushing

[pliant topaz]

well, if all you od is criticize devs are gonna be sad and get defensive. that sjust human nature

[weary kite]

like the floor daggers?

[keen dome]

We saw back during DF they kept repeating similar issues that'd been solved in the past. Small stuff, but frustrating.

[pliant topaz]

its why i rtied to also give positive feedback when I could

[keen dome]

Absolutely. It's why I think it's gotta be balanced and constructive.

[alpine wraith]

the ones that she throws at you and give queensbane

that is why best we can do is report things

[keen dome]

Or to put it another way; it's gotta be useful feedback haha

[vale pine]

game development can be a very thankful job if you do a good job

[alpine wraith]

and wait for solutions

[vale pine]

but also very quickly become toxic if you are not

because your customers will be upset

e.g. people praise the satrdew guy for how brilliant he was

when the game is a 1:1 copy of a existing game

[keen dome]

And often they won't really understand or be able to fully articulate the problem 'cos it's complicated. And a lot of it can be very, very subjective.

[vale pine]

you have no negativity from the community towards it, because the product is what people like

[alpine wraith]

my problem with blizz is the lack of iteration or though sometimes on changes

and other times the whoopsies that scream IF ONLY I HAD MORE TIME

sadly there is never more time

[dreamy wedge]

@vale pine what's your experience in game design, if you don't mind me asking?

[pliant topaz]

you say that but sub (trickster specifically deathstalker can litearlly die) is probably the most fun its ever been (for me since df season 1). but you dont see a lot of people praising the 3 sods and asying oh wow mr dev, you saw somethign we couldnt, even if by accident the 3 sod charges are really interesting and cool!

no ones saying that

but as soon as something negative happens people pickup pitchforks

ready for blood

[keen dome]

I'm gonna say it: I was doomin' and I was wrong. It's really good and cool.

[alpine wraith]

well SoD charges was one of my first thoughs going into DF with dust

now dust is gone and charges are there

but they still run out fast

the gameplay at least is decent

but you can also think more about a whole fight now

[keen dome]

But you are right, Armin. It's a lot easier to be reactionary over perceived negative stuff 'cos we feel slighted or upset or defensive or w/e.

[alpine wraith]

that you dont have another lever to pull

[vale pine]

i am not a game dev, i did 3 curses at university developing a jump and run game, a ios app and a isaac clone.
Outide of that mostly from listening post motems from successfull games.

[pliant topaz]

i think charges are "fine" its dance cdr thats problematic.

I do think that for m+/pvp only though, MOS could be reworked on same choice node as tfd to: when youre out of combat dance and sod recharge like 25% faster.

this would help with feeling so dry

[alpine wraith]

there is some cool things in first dance

[pliant topaz]

or something like, during blades dance/sod recharge faster

[alpine wraith]

but the condition is too tight

[vale pine]

i think people do

like

we say in here

[alpine wraith]

i wish it was something like every 20 finishers

[vale pine]

that the spec became more fun

[alpine wraith]

you get a longer dance

or 30

[vale pine]

its not that the tone is still negative

[alpine wraith]

rewarding gameplay

[vale pine]

so i think your thesis does not hold up

[keen dome]

It's also quite easy for positive or fun content to get lost due to one small mistake, oversight, tuning issue, etc. Which must be reeeeally damn frustrating.

Or in some cases, straight up misinformation.

[vale pine]

The problem with wow is just the scope

[alpine wraith]

i still think bfa sub with NV was the most fun but tuning was not there

[vale pine]

you have soo many players

and everyone wants diffrent thing

[alpine wraith]

so almost no one played it

[keen dome]

Yeah

[alpine wraith]

and people who did were like this shit does no dam

and left fast

[vale pine]

it becomes harder to know what the playerbase wants

[keen dome]

So many players all with different content interests and expectations.

[vale pine]

but i don't think thats a free out of jail card

[keen dome]

another pet battle dungeon

[alpine wraith]

deleting this they wanted and they got

although it had many cool things we could have done with it

[keen dome]

I wonder if Sepsis might come back as a PvP thing someday.

[alpine wraith]

it had many cool things

that could get but it was just shoehorned in the 3 specs

with no explanation

apart from well it existed before

[vale pine]

my point is

[alpine wraith]

toxic onslaught would have been cool for sub

and assa

[vale pine]

you need a good baseline to work from

[alpine wraith]

maybe a bit op on assa

or inflation or the conduit were cool too

[vale pine]

and the baseline means:

• You have a certain expectation of game stability
• You have a certain level of bugs that are tollerable
• You have a certain amount of gatekeeping and lazy content people are fine to keep up with

[alpine wraith]

also ER got RC but not the mikanikos cool thingy

so it was also meh

i did have fun with reverb

before they deleted it at leasdt

[vale pine]

and all of this seems below these levels

11.0.5 is:

• Too much performance problems
• Too many bugs
• Too much gatekeeping (why do you think they buffed rewards by 400%) and lazy content

[pliant topaz]

but how much of that is microsoft firing the QA team

[vale pine]

i don't think this is microsoft related

[pliant topaz]

how much of that is pushing for faster cycles -> less developmenet time / less testing

[midnight hemlock]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns.
The following macros are an exception:yaml /cast Cold Blood /cast Secret Technique

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[keen dome]

I think both of those things have a considerable impact.

[vale pine]

isn't the real question

where is your pain tollerance?

when do you as a player stop engaging

because thats for me the correct question to ask

[keen dome]

But that's going to be different for everybody

[vale pine]

it is a product and as such needs to hold up with a certain quality standard

[pliant topaz]

^

[vale pine]

and we keep appologizing for blizz

[left ledge]

Yeah idk if I agree with that fuu, let’s get another 150 dollar mount in

[pliant topaz]

okay but like, is it really that bad? is the raid acctually fully unplayable? (outisde of the mythic court bs)

[vale pine]

shadowlands -- covid
DF --- They needed time to polish TWW
TWW --- mIcrosoft qa cuts

[pliant topaz]

if a few classes are doing turbo damage, is it really as bad as we make it out to be?

[left ledge]

I mean the expansion is pretty bad

[vale pine]

real answer, yes

it is

people actively stopped raiding

[left ledge]

This is a worse start than every past expansion apart from WoD and WoD was server problems

[vale pine]

because performance even on modern hardware in raid was too bad

we lost 5 raiders to it

and this was before 11.0.5

where it got worse

[left ledge]

This is the only expac I’m struggling to even want to play an alt

[midnight hemlock]

!details

[keen dome]

The Ovinax perofmrance issues espscially are very weird

But I agree with Armin. Is it actually that bad? It's got some real rough edges but I dunno.

[vale pine]

its hard to tell

[topaz raptor]

ths is the best xpac to play an alt

[vale pine]

content creators are overly positive about TWW, it often feels uncanny

[alpine wraith]

remember the silent ones are the first to go

[keen dome]

My personal experience is I've seen much higher player retention and engagement yet.

[vale pine]

and on reddit or other platrofms

[alpine wraith]

you wont hear about them

but you will notice

[vale pine]

its very polarizing

either full fanboy

or complete oposite

[keen dome]

Yeah, Hacha. They'll just stop playing.

[alpine wraith]

i think the expansion is fine and a lot more people are staying around

they might have rethough some things

of course it is not perfect

[keen dome]

And I feel like people are sticking about because, low to mid level, the game is very accessible and has stuff to do. It's good for casual play. A lot of the bigger issues only really reveal themselves once you hit the higher layers.

[alpine wraith]

many dont like the hero->myth curve wall

or that delves stop at champion

or that m+ has this weird scaling not explained anywhere

[keen dome]

The vast majority of players are the LFR to Heroic playerbase, after all.

[remote rapids]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[alpine wraith]

yes the problem is now the reality of

[vale pine]

i keep hearing the opposite

[alpine wraith]

YOU ARE NOT PREPARED

is too heavy

[vale pine]

but thats what i mean

[alpine wraith]

and cut and dry

gettin to 8+ or M raid

is big and heavy

[left ledge]

Uh

[vale pine]

you have two sides, there is rarley a in between opinion

[left ledge]

Idk about that one chief

[alpine wraith]

yea it is very easy to play alts

[keen dome]

Ye that's really true, it's interesting.

[alpine wraith]

if you do content you gear up very fast

[left ledge]

Crest acquisition is still dogshit

[alpine wraith]

and you have 5 hc crafts to the get go

[vale pine]

i actually would love to see some official numbers

[alpine wraith]

thx to shared renown

[vale pine]

in terms of active players, not even subscriptions

[alpine wraith]

so lvl to 80 get valorstones

craft 5 items

[vale pine]

compared to other xpacs

[alpine wraith]

619 do some delves

[left ledge]

Just get valorstones

[alpine wraith]

go into m+-lfr normal raid

[keen dome]

Valorstones suck so much

[left ledge]

Just farm delve keys

Just roll high on delve loot

[alpine wraith]

yea i wish i could sen them to alts

no need to roll high on delve loot tbh

[vale pine]

the valorstone cap is insane

[alpine wraith]

one deranged peron on my raid team

[left ledge]

You’re right

[vale pine]

why is it so low

[keen dome]

But alting does feel pretty good until you hit the higher levels of content and then it's absolutely dire.

[topaz raptor]

I put very little work into my alts and they’re 622 and 627

[left ledge]

My alt dk with 9 cloaks

[alpine wraith]

has like 10 chars at 625 already

[left ledge]

Didn’t need to roll anything on delves

[alpine wraith]

the thing is doing all the content

[left ledge]

He has no life it seems like

[alpine wraith]

you cant just do 1 thing

nah he is just retired

[keen dome]

You either have 0 or 2000, lmao. It's so bad. I would like them to just remove them entirely from the game. I don't think they serve any purpose.

[left ledge]

Yeah I work

[alpine wraith]

best job to play wow

i kinda dont like gearing alts but it is very easy if you do everything

but i do despise valorstone

[left ledge]

I come back at 4:30

Have to cook

Eat

[swift tinsel]

Valorstones existing and crest caps are my biggest gripe with gearing and always will

[left ledge]

Shower

It’s already like 6

[swift tinsel]

I hate being gated by something other than my time investment/skill level

[left ledge]

I raid at 9

[topaz raptor]

The valorstones are a lil annoying

[alpine wraith]

crest cap is whatever if they want to gate that

[keen dome]

Also I legit think they should look at doing 1:1 Crest discount. I.e., if you've got 639 in one slot. Upgrade an alt piece to it without crests. Crests grind is one and done forever for the season.

[left ledge]

Have other hobbies

[alpine wraith]

but valorstone being ONLY 2000 is rabig

should be at least 5k or 10k

[left ledge]

WoW alts are only playable rn if you literally do nothing but WoW

[topaz raptor]

Enlightened grass toucher

[vale pine]

just curios, why do you ask? If you have a diffrent input i am happy to hear your opinion

[swift tinsel]

I just don't see the point of valorstones

[alpine wraith]

they are timegating fun

[topaz raptor]

It is easier than ever to get an alt up to speed and geared for 10 keys at least

[vale pine]

valorstones basically spread content out

[alpine wraith]

yea gearing alts is easy would i do it NO

[vale pine]

by putting multiple currencies

[alpine wraith]

but it is very easy compared to past expansions

[vale pine]

you make people do more things

[swift tinsel]

but they do that with all upgrade currency so its unnecessarily redundant

[vale pine]

its a common mobile game strategy

[alpine wraith]

the combo of valorstones and crests is what i dont like

why 2

[swift tinsel]

exactly

[alpine wraith]

like sure if crests were capped ok

[vale pine]

if you played a mobile game, you likely remember that you had liek 5 or so curencies for diffrent things

[alpine wraith]

i do content and i cap those

[left ledge]

I don’t see why you think that still

[alpine wraith]

fuu doing to wake the sleeping giant

inb4 valorstones on the wow shop

1k for 20€

[keen dome]

I'm sure part of it is that, yeah. You don't want to have the player immediately go from A to B. but also: why, why not. Just remove them. Let people play the content not the grind.

[left ledge]

They made gear acquisition harder not easier

[topaz raptor]

If any loot drops, you bang it to 619 and catalyst it and you are juiced

[vale pine]

whats the requirement to pug 10s reliably

[left ledge]

How do you just “bang” it to 619

[swift tinsel]

idk I'm just not a fan at all of hard gating

[vale pine]

i think when compared to DF

[left ledge]

You need valor and crests

And valor is ass to farm

And crafting mythic gear takes 90 crests for some reason

[keen dome]

I got my Rogue alt from fresh 80 to ilevel 600+ in a few hours. It is very very quick to a certain point.

[left ledge]

Most people don’t even craft

[vale pine]

its noticably harder now to get in a key at the level of reward a 10 offers now

[left ledge]

Because it’s useless as shit

[left ledge]

Yes it is quick to 600-610

After that

It’s fucking ass

[keen dome]

Yeah, which is where most people will be playing. So, I agree with you that it's bad at the high end

But below that it's extremely good. Everything at the very high end is pretty weird or awkward right now.

[swift tinsel]

but also, its quite easy to reach that high end

[left ledge]

Yeah that’s what I mean

[vale pine]

anyone who frequently pugs 10s?

[swift tinsel]

if 610+ is high end

[keen dome]

Me, hi

[vale pine]

can tell me what the requirements are

[left ledge]

I play alts to play high end content on them

[keen dome]

Higher iLevel, typically a 9 or above timed on that key. 2200+ ilevel minimum. 620+ ilevel ideally.

[left ledge]

Not to do farm content

[keen dome]

Weaker if you are a meta spec.

[left ledge]

Like holy shit

[vale pine]

so i can have a rough idea if the statement of "its easier than ever to gear for a 10" is valid

[left ledge]

That should not be the requirement

LOL

[topaz raptor]

why not

[left ledge]

I haven’t pugged but holy shit

620????

For a 9???

10?

What the fuck

[keen dome]

A 10, yes

[vale pine]

i know

it was 618-20 for +8

[alpine wraith]

im 632 and still dont get invited most of the time

[keen dome]

I think those are pretty fine for doing 10's with randoms.

[left ledge]

Bro DAMN

[vale pine]

a while ago

[topaz raptor]

if you list a 10 key, everyone who applies is like 625 and 2400, why would you ever invite anything less

[left ledge]

How tf do you farm 10s on an alt then

[alpine wraith]

i have a sea of declined

or full

[left ledge]

If you pug

[alpine wraith]

before i get into a +10

[vale pine]

i think mike's argument is

if you bring your 10 key

[keen dome]

You work up to them, same as anything.

[vale pine]

its easy to find groups

but how easy is it to get a 10

[left ledge]

Uhuh

[vale pine]

also is that true

from what i hear

certian keys are

no no zone

[keen dome]

Again: Gearing is pretty bad at the high end, esp for alting. But, I think it's really worth consdering that this is the minority of the playerbase.

[left ledge]

On my dk I pushed to a 10 while still being 595 so idk

You push faster than you gear

[keen dome]

You are not representative of most of the playerbase, thuogh

[left ledge]

By a lot

[vale pine]

as tank?

[left ledge]

No

Fdk

[swift tinsel]

fdk assuming

ofc

[keen dome]

So a meta spec

They get into keys waaaay easier.

[left ledge]

I’m saying I pushed my key

Not got into one

I haven’t pugged I said so already

[vale pine]

hmm

[keen dome]

Like I said earlier, I do think they ened to adjust alt gearing pretty heavily.

[left ledge]

I swear gear acquisition is just ass

[keen dome]

It's bad at the Myth level.

[vivid cobalt]

the requirement for pugging 10s is patience lmao

[keen dome]

It's bad enough for a main. It's worse for alts.

[vivid cobalt]

also u prob wont get invited as sub

[left ledge]

Like if you want to spend 4 catalyst charges and all your valorstones to be 610 and do farm content sure man

It’s easy

[alpine wraith]

if you have all renowns maxed you can craft 5 619 items

that helps a lot

[left ledge]

But to get an alt up to speed is insanely bad

[keen dome]

Yeah, it should be easier. Removing valorstones, making the crest discount 1:1. Would go such a long way.

[left ledge]

I used to play 3 alts every expac

[alpine wraith]

the guy that had a million alts geared told me what he does

[left ledge]

All max ilvl

[alpine wraith]

do craft weapon 619 with hc token from story queen

[left ledge]

I can’t even gear my main properly this time

[alpine wraith]

1 epic bg and lfr

[keen dome]

Gearing up to Heroic level is incredibly easy. Gearing above that is really bad

[left ledge]

Like ye look at this shit though

[alpine wraith]

craft 4 other 619

do some delves/m+ normal if possible

[vivid cobalt]

u can craft 610 pvp pieces too

[alpine wraith]

yea that si why you do the epic bg

you can craft 2 to 3 610

[left ledge]

Do lfr, normal, heroic, delves, epic bgs, m+ for valorstones to make use of any of that stuff, craft pvp shit, luck out with loot

Bro

I used to just cap and do m+

What the fuck is all this

[keen dome]

I don't raid Mythic and my 4 Myth vault pieces have been: A bad trinket. A bad trinket. Shoulders. The same shoulders. lol

[alpine wraith]

nah m+ are cursed if you dont have gear

[vivid cobalt]

m+ is like the worst way to gear ironically

[alpine wraith]

and i've heard very bad things on +4 to +6 lvls

[left ledge]

Yeah but that’s stupid

Why is it so bad

I don’t want to do this other shit content

[keen dome]

it's very good until you hit Myth and then it's terrible but also the best way to get currency to upgrade Myth

[left ledge]

Delves are not fun for me at all

They’re like world quests but instanced

[vivid cobalt]

its not very good ever tbh unless you armor type stack

[keen dome]

True, true. That's a good point.

[vale pine]

agree

[vivid cobalt]

you can easily just keep getting the same slot over and over

[left ledge]

Oh man

I need to show you my dk at some point

[keen dome]

I would like to see a bit of a shift back to DF's ease of gearing because I think it's just better for the health of the game (And the sanity of the playerbase)

[left ledge]

ELEVEN FUCKING LEG PIECES

ELEVEN

NOT A SINGLE ORHER PIECE

[vivid cobalt]

lmfao

[vale pine]

tww is the first time streamers hear from their audience that they think of stop playing because of mythic+ changes

its interessting that e.g. mythic+ streamers tell you that its a player skill issue and not a gearing problem

[paper helm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[keen dome]

Something i liked in DF is that M+ got easier over the span of the season. Because player average iLevel continued to increase per season. People had gear access, ilevel went up. More people doing harder content, even if not very good. But still doable because ilevel.

[alpine wraith]

it actually is keys from 2 to 9 are kinda the escalator

[keen dome]

I think that's reeeeally important for WoW to be 'healthy'

[alpine wraith]

10 to 11 aspirational content

[keen dome]

And TWW is a little bit lacking.

[alpine wraith]

and 12+ push zone

[keen dome]

Yeah

[vale pine]

exactly

[dreamy wedge]

@vale pine Just random curiously. I was sometime wondering if you have some proffesional motive to invest so much in creating guides etc - for example if you could use those as part of your resume for applying to game-design jobs.

[alpine wraith]

this season there are many places where you get number checked

[keen dome]

The easier gearing is the more likely that people push into harder content because they feel more able to do so. The harder gearing is the less likely people push out fo their comfort zones due to time or fear or anxiety or whatever else and that's bad.

[alpine wraith]

also people dont understand ivl and power lvl

[keen dome]

Yeah

[alpine wraith]

there is a HUGE chasm from a 610 player to 620 to 630

[keen dome]

It's fascinating

[vale pine]

i don't think i would use journalism as a big selling point.
Would put electrical engineering and computer science on my resume instead

[alpine wraith]

i would never put electrical

that shit is cursed

blasted clean from my brain

[vale pine]

haha

[keen dome]

I want to put "internet shitposter" on my CV. It's my best skill.

[alpine wraith]

even if i could get jobs also doing part of that apart from telecom

[vale pine]

i mean i can develop a small microchip and produce it, or well could years ago most of that knowlage is probably gone by now

[dreamy wedge]

I always assumed there are some design jobs that would only require concept deisgn, but I could be wrong.

[vale pine]

one thing i lerned in university is

game design does not follow a common principle

[vivid cobalt]

i mean it kind of is because people have a bad experience with a huge noob and then because of that overcompensate with their absurdly high gear/rating expectations

[vale pine]

the courses i did followd certain published papers and books

[sinful sluice]

Im cs undergraduate and i actually want career in blizzard cuz of wow now

[keen dome]

I hang out with a few game developers / designers and some of their best work has been "lol that's funny" after seeing a bug, or a mistake, or like, a random concept and refining it.

[vale pine]

not because its the best way, but because the professors needed a source material to reference ^^

[hearty fog]

It is, in some way. But the system being this unrewarding for how troublesome it is is not really the way to go imo

[keen dome]

Also, video games are hacked together monstrosities that sometimes make no sense 'cos man.

Look at vanilla WoW's Dwarf eyeballs. Genius, very funny.

"Should we design some proper eyes for them?"
"Nah shove the soulstone texture in there, it works"

[vale pine]

If you want to listen to two good talks:
Super mario Bros Wonder
Hi-fi-rush

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

The Hifi Rush one is REALLY good.

Absolutely worth the listen 'cos their game is pretty unique

Also just a really fun game that's worth playing.

[vale pine]

The talks highlight their development cycle and principles

tldw: both are similar and highlight the idea of "chase the fun" while iterating, with a lot of playtesting

[keen dome]

Ye. Playtesting is real important because you, as a designer, might think something is good and cool.

But then a player goes "What is this"

[vale pine]

hi fi rush also has a interessting idea to gameplay

where you get rearded for good play

e.g. you hit your combos on the beat and they do more damage or extra attacks

[keen dome]

One of my favourite areas of game development / design is modding. And in this, Neverwinter Nights 1 modules. Because you've got people working in a system within a system. And players will expect Y but the module maker might make it do X. And it's fascinating to see how people engage with and design this stuff.

[vale pine]

but you don't need to do so to beat the game

[keen dome]

Yeah.

Devil May Cry 5 has one of my favourite elements of that where the better you do, the more of the soundtrack you get.

As higher combo ranks introduces more parts of the music. It's really fun and dynamic.

[dreamy wedge]

I am sure most game developers came with some computer engineering background, it makes lots of sense (of the process of creation and the kind of people who would be interested in it, not necessarily of the practical development of a game) - But in a huge studio like blizzard they might not need this kind of route. I believe many of Heartstone designers are just people iwth lots of TCG's background and zero knowledge about programming.

[keen dome]

Designers and developers are often different disciplines, too.

[dreamy wedge]

I see what you mean, my English can be preaty bad sometimes so I might have interchanged them incorrectly before.

[keen dome]

You are very understandable, don't worry. I just think it's worth mentioning. Someone who is good at C++ might be terrible at designing something. But, having both skillsets is generally really helpful.

[vale pine]

hearthstone was a pet project that developed in a massive success

it wasn't planed to that scale it became

[dreamy wedge]

Sure, but I am talking about current designers and not the originals - why can't it be the same with wow?

[vale pine]

the problem with wow is just how old the game is

[keen dome]

The oldest, largest pot of spaghetti around.

[vale pine]

the game was written at a time most people had not much experience with mmo development

and over time updated and modernized

but this also means a lot of design decisions and other burdons are still in the game

and as hacha i think mentioned, the majority does switch away from game dev quick

because of how stressfull it is

[alpine wraith]

yea game dev is a meat grinder

[vale pine]

means every 3-5 years there are new people to the project

[alpine wraith]

for ex i have a guy i have worked with that has been in telecomms for almost 50 years

now does mostly consulting and architecture

[spice matrix]

Do we want to macro Transmitter to flag or anything?

[vale pine]

so over 20 years, you will have a lot of new eyes on the engine and other parts of the game

where now, its likely that new game developers

[prisma heron]

at 620 and aotc, im done for the season and considering unsubbing for the first time in years. The reward to time ratio over 620 is just out of wack without a myth raiding guild or M+ push group, and honestly the time to do them even if I had the skill. Which is more than questionable I admit. Its fine to gatekeep the highest level content. But there are business implications that I just dont know whether Blizz really thought through

[vale pine]

might not even have access to the entire game engine

but a seperate part that was abstracted to help them work more efficiently

some code might be 20 years old that still is responsible for bugs and is hard to pin down

because you can't easy go down the stack

[keen dome]

I don't think you are alone in feeling that. I hope they address it in some form, but I am curious - how did you feel about DF's gear cycle in comparison?

[dreamy wedge]

Maybe my lack of understanding is showing here - I understand how old code could effect, for example, raid design. But why wuld it be so impactful on gearing systems or class rotation?

[vale pine]

big projects like this often come with a lot of technical depth that accumulates over the years

[keen dome]

Complex code, written by people who are no longer there. You have to start by understanding what it does, and who knows what changing it could mean. Which is why we called it spaghetti.

Add in a deadline...

[vale pine]

thats a diffrent problem

basically what i discribed is more about bugs and game instability

class development is a problem of limited ressources

[prisma heron]

I have really mixed feelings. I feel like 8s were probably too easy for Myth track. But that also made them accessible to me and my alts. Which kept me on the hamster wheel. Moving the gilded crests over the 15 second death hurdle and Myth track gear to where the portals were, in addition to both Tyran and Fort? I just cant be arsed to keep throwing myself at it

[vale pine]

e.g. there are likely around 12 devs working on around 40 specs in the game, while also doing bugfixes and balance changes

[keen dome]

Ye, valid. Thanks for answering. I've been pretty curious about how people feel about this stuff, since I'm feeling similar about the 'hurdle'.

[vale pine]

this means each spec in the game only has a fraction of the time these have to get iterated on

[dreamy wedge]

That's so odd to me. Shouldn't design and bug fixes be done by sepreate teams?

[vale pine]

^ and basically is the reason why most classes have a lot of bugs left

[lilac stag]

Huh? The first 4 bosses of mythic content are quite possibly the easiest puggable bosses in recent memory. You can keep upgrading gear by running 8s-10s. I’m doing vault keys as we prog mythic and at 630. It ain’t that difficult to jump up from 620. If you have zero desire for harder content. Enjoy your break.

[vale pine]

for gearing and other content decisions

e.g. mythic+ difficultly, time gating, raid difficulty, crest limits

all of this is carefully considered by the team

and they try to find the ideal point

of keeping you as the player engaged the longest time

[lilac stag]

I’ve got 152 crests I still have to farm.

[keen dome]

Can you farm them for me too Scath

[vale pine]

while keeping the game as grindy as possible without making players lose interesst

tww optimizes for player engagement

not fun

[lilac stag]

No im too busy running lfr for the raid currency before we raid because Im not bugged and only getting 8 each week. 95% of the guild has max fiety or whatever they’re called.

[prisma heron]

Perhaps. And that's totally fine. I was very honest saying "I" dont have the time to commit. Im a 50 year old attorney 🙂 I dont begrudge the folks who have the time and ability. Im just saying "I" am probably done for now, which hasnt been the case before

[vale pine]

if this works for anyone or not depends on the person

a lot of players have fun with the game as is, and a lot don't like it

[keen dome]

Why are so many Rogue's also in law for some reason

[lilac stag]

and that’s totally cool. Game was just as much a sludge when you were in your 30s. We just had more free time.

[topaz raptor]

backstabbing is in their nature

[prisma heron]

100%. More so. Leveling in classic took months alone

[lilac stag]

My entire goal it to get to raid logging status.

Haha

Rather train my dogs

[prisma heron]

You want to grind? Try leveling in Everquest!

[vale pine]

whatever makes you happy

[vale pine]

runescape has your back if you like mindless grind

[lilac stag]

EQ was so bad, but man DnD people loved it

[keen dome]

haha

[lilac stag]

I miss DAOC and UO

[keen dome]

Yeah, raid logging is cozy.

[prisma heron]

Lake Superior gang represent 🙂

[alpine wraith]

sometimes i miss maplestory

just brain rot

[keen dome]

I miss Lord of the Rings online.

Specifically the Mines of Moria expansion and absolutely nothing after that.

[prisma heron]

last time I recall raid logging really being a legit thing was probably cata. And that's probably a bad model for Blizz too. There's a mid point there to search for. Trouble is two people will give totally different answers for how much reward the wheel has to crank out to make the dopamine hit work

[vale pine]

you could raid log at certain points in DF

season 2 was fairly fast in gering

so if you spammed m+ like many did

you ended up fast in the raid log timeline

[keen dome]

Yeah. I think they should embrace it, honestly. The dark times of the mandatory minimum engagement (BfA, SL, Legion) were pretty bad for the game.

Being content to let people go do other stuff is healthy, imo.

[prisma heron]

True. I was pretty maxed out early on in s3 and s4 without ever touching myth raid

[keen dome]

Yeah, same.

[topaz raptor]

there are people who want to get rewarded by playing the game though

[vale pine]

tww goes more back towards targeting the high end

[topaz raptor]

if there's no carrot on the stick, it can get boring too

[lilac stag]

I will be raid logging in 2 weeks hopefully.

[vale pine]

with weaker crafting, more restrictins on gear aquisition, more mythic upgrade tracks, content being harder in general.

[keen dome]

Yeah.

There's a tremendous amount to do in WoW, espescially if you like harder content, too.

It's just that you don't want to make engagement in content people may dislike mandatory to do the core game.

[lilac stag]

I had fun tricker treating for the helm mog

[keen dome]

M+ players who just want to push keys don't want to have to raid, for example.

[vale pine]

think mythic+ became such a center of the game

[prisma heron]

If I were balancing it.. I'd make sure the high playime/skill folks 100% got the best rewards fastest. Thats easy. The question is where you put the dial for the second and third tier. If they get it slowly. They keep playing and actually play longer than tier 1. If they get it never, they dont play at all.

[vale pine]

that tww making mythic+ more optional

and noticably worse for gearing

was quite a brutal change for many that got used to it being their main content

[keen dome]

For me, personally, I'd just shift Hero to 626 on hero crests. Drop Myth to 4 upgrade ranks. Revert Myth vault to M+8. Drop Myth crests to +6 or higher. And then leave it as is. Maybe add a deterministic currency to the raid for people.

Gearing is a means to an end for most people and being able to just get to the point where youc an engage with the content you enjoy is important.

[vale pine]

heroic gear is useless

people keep saiyng you can easy gear to heroic

[keen dome]

Yeah. Absolutely is since it's identical to Champ.

[vale pine]

but reality is normal gear can be upgraded to heroic gear for cheap

[keen dome]

Which is why I think if you adjust Hero to 626 on Hero crests, you fix that issue. (And revert Myth to 4/4 instead of 6/6)

[vale pine]

and heroic gear caps out at the same item level before you need mythic crests

so when people say hero is easy to gear

[prisma heron]

So.. s4 DF mostly. Which even I had the sense was too easy. So.. it needs to be harder than that, but less than current. Personally Id put Gilded at 6, Myth track at 9 and crests at 10

[vale pine]

they just mean you get normal level gear fast

[mental comet]

imo increase crest drops from higher keys too, 12 crests is sleeper af and having to do like 80 keys on an alt this point of the season to cap it is cringe. give like +5-10 extra crest for every level above 10 or something

[keen dome]

I'd argue that Heroic ends at the same point as Normal gear expressly because of the 6/6 Myth crests.

[topaz raptor]

that's just the same as having no cap

[prisma heron]

excuse me, I meant portals at 10

[vale pine]

yes, you never want to spend mythic crests on upgrades

[topaz raptor]

just because the cap exists, it doesn't mean you need to get capped on an alt

[keen dome]

Something like that'd be fine, yeah.

[vale pine]

so you cap out at the same

[mental comet]

ofc it does, else you are literally losing output

capping faster is kinda needed idk

[keen dome]

Shift Hero to cap at 626 on Hero crests. Myth starts at 629 -> 639. Simple, solved, imo.

[blazing plover]

quick question, but what makes Sub the preference for Ansurek prog? the timings? dmg profile? some utility tech? all of these?

[keen dome]

Champ and Hero occupy different areas. Easier to gear higher on less. Hero crests have more value. Raid loot has more value on lower tiers.

[vale pine]

isn't it mostly personal preference?

i don't think sub is that much better on queen

[keen dome]

I guess cooldowns come up for the Shield which is nice?

Then again up top?

[blazing plover]

not sure. was seeing some logs where people did the swap for it. wasn't sure it that was a thing or maybe just a coincidence that it happened to be the logs I looked at

[alpine wraith]

a bit more tanky

also boss dmg can be better depending on cd usage

[ivory swallow]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[blazing plover]

I see. tyvm

[topaz agate]

I NEED HELP WITH SUB ROGUE M+ OH GOD

[alpine wraith]

but it is fun thoi

[topaz agate]

I DONT KNOW WHAT IM DOING AND IM IN THE MDI

[hearty fog]

think you're going to need to be a little bit more precise than that my dude

[topaz agate]

i play like season 3 and see what happen

[hearty fog]

What do you need help with exactly?

[wind canopy]

Eat some beans on toast and you get superpowers and then go smash some buttons

[keen dome]

Could go for some beans on toast right now. Some really nice sourdough bread.. Proper beans...

[spice matrix]

Step one is swap to sin

[ornate current]

^ true

Especially for MDI

Iron wire ... Enough said

[topaz agate]

bro this guy just scared the shit out of me

[ornate current]

What made you look at the current rio leaderboards and go "hmm i think sub is the answer"

[topaz agate]

the fact that everything dies too fast for my kingsbane to even finish ticking

[hearty fog]

gigachad move to tackle the MDI as Sub tbh

Feels like going naked to the most gruesome battlefield there is

[topaz agate]

comps change per dungeon yeah

[hearty fog]

in a +12 setting?

[ornate current]

Just gonna say this again ... Iron wire

[topaz agate]

the keys go from 9-11

and we're all 639

[hearty fog]

wait

[alpine wraith]

sub should be quite ok

[hearty fog]

they specifically created the new affixes to stop the discrepancies between the dungeons

but they're not putting them on +12 for the MDI?

[keen dome]

I believe in the power of Sub rogue carrying you to victory

[hearty fog]

what kind of cracked out shit is this

[vale pine]

what event?

[hearty fog]

MDI

apparently

[alpine wraith]

yes

[vale pine]

oh

[topaz agate]

they obviously wanna show them off

kinda hard to do when theyre gone

[ornate current]

Gonna guess trial runs for qualification, but even that doesn't make sense

[hearty fog]

... but what's the point?

[alpine wraith]

they already qualified

[topaz agate]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/682588388435558490/1299417206760935474/TWW_Season_1_MDI_-_Dungeon_Information_Group_A.png?ex=6723b794&is=67226614&hm=5d1aaaa1bc1d52506e2e06e9e30dfaeca50feece17f5c1f040e61f2e4ef89cf5&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1193&height=671

[hearty fog]

who the fuck watches the MDI if not the M+ enjoyers?

[iron stratus]

your mom

[vale pine]

last mdi was rough to watch

[hearty fog]

they got twitch in hell?

[ornate current]

I mean a zerg fest of massive aoe pulls and you wanna go with the class that has limited target capabilities and no aoe silence

Interesting

[alpine wraith]

i watch it usually

even if i kinda dislike m+

it is enternatining

[ornate current]

TGP better

[iron stratus]

i like apples

fuck you banana

[alpine wraith]

yea but they are on diff times

[topaz agate]

yes

[alpine wraith]

so they dont overlap

watch both

[ornate current]

Smh my head

[vale pine]

i liked to look in usually

[ornate current]

We are all rooting for you

[hearty fog]

I'm guessing your comps are prepared around it but Anavia's right

[vale pine]

but last mdi rly was not enough startegic diffrences or comp changes

[hearty fog]

We all believe in you tho

[vale pine]

so a lot of the appeal for me was gone quick

[hidden spade]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, pretty new to sub - is there any circumstance where we would send secret technique without either dance or symbols?

[topaz agate]

i mean a huge part of assas damage just doesnt exist if my caustic target is dead

[vale pine]

no

always with symbols, dance most of the times too

[ornate current]

Ovinax mythic 4th egg group after cds when you get it back ... dont ask 💀

[hidden spade]

Ahh ok ty, would we send secret technique with symbols but without dance since there’s 3 charges for symbol but only 2 for dance?

[hearty fog]

Sure, but I think the problem will stay the same with Sub if not worse

[topaz agate]

????

i send sectech on a target and then black powder or some shit

doesnt matter if my target dies as long as sectech has gone off

[hearty fog]

Your damage is obviously tightly linked to your cooldowns, even more so than sin

[topaz agate]

flag will stack up in like 5 seconds with tornado

[hearty fog]

Not sure if the boys will second me on this

[ornate current]

2nd time after you use cds, you go onec the normal dance+symb+sec and than can send a naked symb + sec or if your cdr rng is good you can dance there as well all depends on the fight

[ornate current]

^

[hearty fog]

Yeah, I guess

[hidden spade]

Awesome ty!

[strong kernel]

Sub and Sin NEED daggers right?

[hearty fog]

Yes they do

[strong kernel]

running a fistweapon or other agi weap offhand is int

ye?

[wind canopy]

Yes

[ornate current]

!off

[wind canopy]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[strong kernel]

this guy is truying to convince me otherwise lmao

[hearty fog]

Bonk him

[ornate current]

Ups

[left ledge]

Tell him he’s trolling

[ornate current]

In pvp you can use a 1 hande off hand

[left ledge]

Unless it’s for PvP in which case it’s not a big deal

[ornate current]

You wouldn't BP anyways, and nimble requires targets with UB up on them also you are hard caped to 7 and having dots on everything with sudden demise is much stronger for mass aoe

[vale pine]

for pvp?

some pvp people like to do that

[wind canopy]

The DM/caustic target doesn’t survive more than like 8 seconds with the gear and level of keys they’re doing. It’s all trivial content.

[alpine wraith]

big sikarn hc slam

expect to get rolled across the day tho

mandate didnt crit

[ornate current]

Again dmg wise it dont matter go sin iron wire and save your team and yourself some sanity

Stops are much more important in that scenario i think than any dmg output

[alpine wraith]

iron wire does not matter in mdi pulls disappear

[wind canopy]

They’ll probably have plenty of stops and coordination. This is MDI. Not pugs.

[alpine wraith]

just try to send sec tech on cd look at dance cd before sending other cds

also eleem did a kinda writeup in the #1271971289396936735

we play around sec tech rn

skip some dances/SoD depending on cdr

[strong kernel]

no a sub rogue in my normal alt pug xD

was trying to help him by saying he would be better off buying a green from the AH but this guy swears down it was a thing in DF lmao

[keen dome]

I've run into a few people who make that argument. I dunno where it got started.

[hearty fog]

probably a relic of the past

think it was a thing back in vanilla pvp or bc pvp

[vale pine]

the cheapest dagger you can get out of the ah for like 200g is better than any non dagger

[strong kernel]

figured xD

[vale pine]

it is because of attack speed

[strong kernel]

btw quick question, am a bit behind on the refinery thingies, farmed a couple in LFR, getting none in Normal, are they once per boss on all dificulties?

[lucid lily]

Literally one sim of their character would prove them wrong

[alpine wraith]

you have to turn in the quest sometimes

if you have 8 turn in then you turn 16

[strong kernel]

my 1st turn in was 16 I think

[keen dome]

It's 16 each time I believe, yeah

This week was the second psosible turnin

[leaden spire]

sub is better now in pve?

[strong kernel]

I turned in 1st 16 this week, I'm now stuck on 7 out of 32 collected lol

figure its just a tooltip bugf

[keen dome]

Yeah, in theory it SHOULD catch you up..

[leaden spire]

is sub the bis now?

[steel spindle]

both are bis

[leaden spire]

ai aii

[bitter dagger]

Guild's feral druid just got hc transmitter as a placeholder trinket until he gets hero skardyns...

[strong kernel]

thats why u need a rogue in lootcouncil man

[bitter dagger]

I'm fine. I'm not fuming. I feel delighted

[strong kernel]

cuz they have no clue how big it is for sub

[steel spindle]

i wish I could use skardyn instead of transmitter:(

I'm so tired of the minigame

I have one but transmitter too good:(

[bitter dagger]

Yeah... using it as sin feels pretty nice

[rain smelt]

Now whats the chance of me actually clinching a 100 roll when finally seeing it on normal today

[hearty fog]

leave and don't come back

[rain smelt]

(Spoiler: I tied the 100 roll and won it)

Would it not be ideal to pop transmitter trinket before dance in order for one to complete the task (e.g. jump 3 times) before dance + sectech?

[vale pine]

i have it macroed to flag

you can use it earlier

[rain smelt]

Makes sense

[vale pine]

but want to solve the task during dance

[rapid warren]

at what target count we use BP in m+?

or we mostly use it for flawless form?

[strong kernel]

fun fact

[hazy breach]

Around 12, but its kinda whatever

[strong kernel]

handed in the quest at the start of normal, didnt get a single one up till court, where I relogged, got stuff on both court and queen
So my guess is that shit just bugs out when u hand in the quest and u need to relog lmao, now I need to run fckin heroic cuz I missed out on so many Normal ones

[hazy breach]

"around", because it actually depends on exactly how many find weaknesses you have up, but thats not really a feasible thing to track

[rapid warren]

so i shouldnt bother spamming the button?

its not being played like in shadowlands/early dragonflight?

[mighty delta]

is everyone else experiencing major lag especially on council fight? suddenly half our team gets spiked where there was no ring

[alpine wraith]

yea that happens

[mighty delta]

ughh

[raven tiger]

hey subbies <3

sometimes i miss u all hope rougie doing well

[vale pine]

transmitter seems to dc people

somone earlier mentioned it and i got a dm about it

and we had people dc in raid too

which was fixed after banning the trinket

[mighty delta]

im using void reapers contract and sacbrood rn - was just askin sin side for any recs to improve

ik sacbrood isnt simming great as an option on sub

is skardyns decent?

[wind canopy]

Basically becomes a three minute trinket with sub

[steel spindle]

I use transmitter and no other trinket that is 626 sims better than my 619 shadow-binding ritual knife

[mighty delta]

hm yea thats not ideal ill just play around with some others

[steel spindle]

626 skardyn doesn't even beat the 619 shadow-binding ritual knife in sims for me

as assasination

[mighty delta]

i want it to be decent on sub too is the issue

3min to wait seems like its overall gonna be a dps loss

[mighty delta]

ty for the suggestion gonna check that out

[edgy zenith]

i don't know fuck all about rogue, how do rogues break roots on Ansurek?

only gnome and externals?

[tepid trellis]

gnome, cloak and vanish

[edgy zenith]

are there 3 sets or?

or you can just rotate those

[alpine wraith]

you can kinda make it work now

1st one vanish second cloak then you kill 3rd with cds

[tepid trellis]

4

[alpine wraith]

then vanish

[ashen crest]

!supercharger

[edgy zenith]

3rd set gets the sectech lineup, right?

[tepid trellis]

with gnome you do

Cloak, gnome,vanish,gnome

[edgy zenith]

ahh, but most rogues are going gnome for that, ye?

[tepid trellis]

yeh

[edgy zenith]

like required type beat/

gotcha

thanks

[tepid trellis]

not required

or well it kinda is

[edgy zenith]

depending on comp ye

[tepid trellis]

but

[edgy zenith]

with freedoms

[tepid trellis]

you kinda wanna save cloak for the intermission

so being gnome is just really safe

[edgy zenith]

can you still step boss in intermission? or does that take you into webs into death?

[tepid trellis]

yeh you can

[alpine wraith]

you can step if you are already on the air

not before

and cant be too close

or you die in the air too

[tepid trellis]

you can do it from melee range

but you gotta be fast

[edgy zenith]

if you have zoomer reactions lmao

ye, ty

[alpine wraith]

yea i can do it usually

[round latch]

so,the flag usage on m+ is basicly build 6+cp flag=>fisniher=>sblades==>proceed with the rotation aight?

im not doing somethign wrong

[tepid trellis]

flag-sectech-blades

to be precise

[round latch]

huh

did i say i dont like trickster?

(yes i hate it)

[eternal gyro]

someone else experiencing 1st Vanish after evisceration disappearing like magic at pull ? on council ?

[balmy notch]

i saw this on wowhead too but i cant wrap my mind around it, sectech is my hardest hitter by a mile, so i really not buff it with sblades?

[round latch]

u can back-to-back 2 sectechs

[round latch]

btw how do u actually handle SoDs,do u pandemic them on cd?

and just vanish as well on cd on low cps?

(like dont keep those two waiting and just wait for the rest to allign to SoD)

[alpine wraith]

if you take dmg you go out of vanish

have to be able to vanish strike instantly

[tepid trellis]

sectech doesent work with blades

thats why

[balmy notch]

ooooooh

😮

[round latch]

are we doing this wrong all along in arena then?

what the

😅

[balmy notch]

yeah that was a gamechanger lol

while we're on the subject of basic stuff that i dont know, nimble flurry's aoe is centered on my character right? so i have to sit in the middle of a pack go cleave

[round latch]

coz afaik we play both death perception and sectech in arena

im so confused now

and ofc we allign everything but its deathstalker

trickster has flawless form so i might be missing somehting here

[round latch]

yes,its not like spatter iirc but might be wrong

spatter flurries from the target,NF from you

[atomic prawn]

haven't seen it mentioned here, anyone had issues in M+ with nimble flurry pulling mobs that aren't in combat and like 30y away?

[lilac stag]

No

[balmy notch]

im gonna go full clown and ask away, if i don't raid at all is it an option at all to craft the alchemist stone thing? gives passive vers and proc agi

only other option is dungeon passive trinkets like crystal and sacbrood

[lilac stag]

Run droptimizer and see what’s best. Transmitter is huge.

Even lfr or normal.

[hazy breach]

Its fine, but i wouldnt recommend it since it costs a spark and the dungeon trinkets are ok

Like the difference between non-transmitter trinkets is very minor

So as long as you have transmitter its not a huge deal if your other trinket isnt great

The knife from delves is really good too and its spammable

[lilac stag]

You can also do delves for trinkets.

[earnest prairie]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[atomic prawn]

not sure how else to test this, but it seems to happen reliably for me in necrotic wake, even pulls the boss when fighting a trash pack next to it

[copper pond]

Hey guys, can someone explain to me why the Lightforged Draenei sim so high compared to other races for Sub Rogue ?

[hazy breach]

It doesnt

Bloodmallet is simming without any talents for sub

[copper pond]

Oh ok so what would be your go to ?

I was thinking of Night Elf at first

[hazy breach]

Orc or mechagnome dps wise

But its all small, go with whatever you think looks the best

[copper pond]

Ok, thanks for your answer !

[vestal escarp]

uuuuh

fazed parry still works raid wide?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[vestal escarp]

goated

gonna be the ovinax hero

support class

[placid crown]

Only 20 sub rogues deathstalkers on Ovinax HM ?

world

[pliant arrow]

Just killed mythic ovinax, but did shit dmg. What seperated me from bigger pumpers were that my sectech didnt hit neaaarly as many, even tho i had more casts. At what timing/position during eggbreak do y’all cast ur sectech?

[alpine wraith]

what is that

is that boss dmg or what

or is it heroic

[amber ocean]

You have to cheese for pad or you won’t parse ovinax overall

[deft oar]

I just went assa for ovinax kek

[pliant arrow]

Yea i did some digging and i didnt hold sectech for adds as much as others, someone gotta graylog aswell ig

[warm veldt]

delay your 45s CB sectech to be with first egg break (4th dance of the fight)
2nd SB/Flag burst with egg breaks (should only have to delay like 4-5s for it to line up anyway)
after 2nd SB/Flag burst dont dance again until CB is ready, (it will automatically line up with next breaks)
continue normally
3rd SB/Flag burst window happens with egg breaks just before 4 mins
rest of the fight continue normally

if you boil it down, you just make sure your CB sech techs outside of giga burst always hit adds

and do your big blasts in conjunction with the nearest egg breaks as far as the timeline goes

[ebon tiger]

ele shamans are letting adds stay up long enough for you to pad on m ovinax? lucky

[warm veldt]

you'll still be doing the highest boss damage in your group anyway so nobody thinks to flame you for it

unless you have an enhance shaman then you're #2 on the boss

[ebon tiger]

yeah I'm resigned to filtering to boss damage to keep my ego up there lol playing sub or sin

[supple verge]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[pliant arrow]

Damn ty! Do we send any sectechs without dance but with SoD? Or does the lineups get funky?

[warm veldt]

I know I do a couple, I couldnt tell ya the timestamps

you'll have to play that by ear, just make sure you'll have the SoDs for your big blasts

[worldly oasis]

Stupid question, does the Mandate work with Lingering Darkness/symbols?

[warm veldt]

LD yeah, symbols no (unless you take the crit symbols talent then technically yes but really actually no)

[young path]

Is this accurate?

anyone actually running that trinket?

[alpine wraith]

bloodmallet does not work with sub profile has no gear

so dmg trinkets seem like that

[young path]

ahh

ty

[vale pine]

it has gear but no talents

[alpine wraith]

nice to see

[rapid warren]

First toughst after running sub in few keys it is amazing prio wise and boss damage but i dont like the fact u lost oouga bouuga padding with black powder spam it feels so much better to press evis

[sinful sluice]

1 min till vault....

PLEASE GIVE ME 639 RASHANAN CAPE 😢

what do i take here?

[warm aspen]

u already got 639 mainhand or something?

[sinful sluice]

yeah, thats stitchflesh wepon but i have 639 blood kissed kukuri and 639 mythic wepon

that neck isnt really for sub right...?

5000 haste damn

[topaz raptor]

yeah haste is kinda dog for sub but it is technically +75 gilded worth of upgrades if you have another neck

[sinful sluice]

took the neck, it has vers as well so ill just use it for now till i get another mythic neck

[glacial hinge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[warm aspen]

ngl no brainer pants angle for me

just cuz im planning to craft neck lol

[narrow dirge]

Are there any stat minimum requirements for sub? Like for ex 20% crit needed or smth?

[alpine wraith]

nope

just know vers and mastery are generally better

[cold plover]

why sub still bottom of the apm list no one been sumbitting api thingy to them ?

to simulationcraft ?

[near rivet]

sit down and did some keys gb 11 and sv 12 (depleted)

the gameplay feels so smooth despite feeling of dealing no dmg between symbols

yoinking orbs on skarmorak to nuke shield in 5 seconds is giga too

[hazy breach]

We love the big bonks

Like look at this, imagine if it wasnt split into 3 hits

[rustic geyser]

subs whole sim on there isn't working correctly, don't pay attention to it atm

[wind canopy]

[wind canopy]

... Just 15 million damage. nbd

[hazy breach]

16 even

[wind canopy]

I'm rounding down because clearly needs buffs

[hazy breach]

Doesnt work with blades

That would be another 3M

[near rivet]

damn

[wind canopy]

[near rivet]

its a scam actually

ST clones doesnt amp from skarmorak orbs buff

[hazy breach]

😦

[short radish]

because the clones don't have the buff 🙃

game working as intended

[topaz raptor]

sub has no talents on simcraft/bloodmallet so the numbers are totally wrong

[glacial hinge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[edgy zenith]

how the fuck did you hit for a 15M sectech?

[cold plover]

Nice to see sub rogue up there

[hazy breach]

Im an overgeared rat 🐀

[edgy zenith]

there are approximately 3 logs total

it will be performing well

since only autistic people in this channel are playing it in raid

(lovingly)

[wind canopy]

[short radish]

yeah tried sub again feels kinda comfy now

except opener

that feels jank af

[hazy breach]

Wdym, opener feels real good

(as trickster, we dont talk about deathstalker)

[short radish]

i dont like how flag + sblade + symbols/dance are all pressed at different times from each other

[hazy breach]

No more snd/rupture prep before flag, just insta send and bonk

[short radish]

probably because i have shit binds

[hazy breach]

The initial symbols+dance can be sent at the same time

[short radish]

yeah but you still hold sblade for another 2 gcds right?

[hazy breach]

Yes until after sectech

[short radish]

yeah, i don't like that

just feels awkward

but it is what it is

[wind canopy]

Not like your sectec is buffed by SB anyway

[short radish]

true

but it's extra button presses or something

[spark tusk]

I mean I did like the feeling of pressing all 3 at once

dancesymbolsblades

[short radish]

yeah

[spark tusk]

I have them all clustered together

I don't mind the new way but

I did like it

[short radish]

i'm sure i'll get used to it

[hazy breach]

The symbols+dance+cb+sectech sends feels good though

Outside of bursts

[short radish]

oh yeah

[spark tusk]

yeh

[short radish]

thats great

[hazy breach]

Into strike > coup

[spark tusk]

I still feel like I'm munching cp from shadowcraft

with replicating

the delay

[wind canopy]

You are

[spark tusk]

I need to practice paying attention more for it

[hazy breach]

Although the rare times when you dont get an extra unseen blade proc so you dont get a coup before your second sectech

Feels kinda bad

[spark tusk]

Just watching the weakaura to predict it

rather than just reacting

[hazy breach]

Because you'll have sectech at 13-14s when you want to symbols+eviscerate

Instead of <10

[spark tusk]

actually in the opener vs later burst

in the opener you have 2 extra gcds because of applying rupture

between flag and blades

on the second blades do you hold flag for those 2 gcds before sending?

so it lines up more with blades?

[hazy breach]

Ye

[spark tusk]

makes sense

[hazy breach]

Some recent tech weve found too is that its technically better to use cold blood on the second sectech rather than macroing it

[spark tusk]

https://tenor.com/view/panda-flip-desk-freak-out-mad-gif-15503485

[hazy breach]

Which means you'll also need to use the non-burst CB ASAP or you'll need to delay flag

[spark tusk]

How much work is the word "technically" doing here?

[hazy breach]

Its 0.5% better to only use it on the second sectech in your burst (and nothing inbetween)

Its really annoying to line everything up in simc to use the sectech+cb immediately once its ready, so cant give you a number on that but should be worth

The second sectech just hits really fucking hard

as per #subtlety message

[strange chasm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[topaz agate]

its been like 1 day

you cooked

[short radish]

yay... more stuff to demacro

[flint sundial]

anyone know if you cloak while webbed to someone does it remove the web?

on court

[lucid jackal]

I will not be doing this

[spark tusk]

[tribal blade]

@lilac stag ok i timed 2 more 12s as sub

[hazy breach]

Respectable

[lucid jackal]

stop TCINg this please

It'll make me not like the spec anymore

I'm having so much fun rn

[hazy breach]

Its a little bit ass to have to bind it but i am enjoying the big badunkadunk from the second sectech

[sinful sluice]

Is wow lagging on other servers as well?

Feel like this has notthing to do with server status but code got fucked somewhere

[spark tusk]

I don't know abotu inside instances

but outside world, particularly dornogal

is really bad and has been since last week

[sinful sluice]

Outer dornogal is just worse. M+ looks fine but raid is just unplayable

[spark tusk]

I'm trying to prospect and getting like .4-.5 sec between casts extra

it's awful

I need to churn through thousands of casts

[lucid jackal]

Yeah but then U need to learn cold blood rules

🤢

AND add a keybind

[spark tusk]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/nerub-ar-palace-raid-lag-fixes-update-for-october-25th-desyncs-and-disconnects-349517 few minutes ago

[left ledge]

can i officially say

ive killed court on the hardest difficulty

mythic desync

[molten citrus]

#off-topic message

[hazy breach]

[molten citrus]

Thoughts?

[hazy breach]

Bruh

Thats my final answer

[molten citrus]

[ember steppe]

/wa

[hazy breach]

Blizzards finest hour this patch

[molten citrus]

Yep

[vestal escarp]

uuuh where we putting the flag point

PV