when they put together sims
#subtlety
rustic raven
harsh ridge
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns.
The following macros are an exception:yaml /cast Cold Blood /cast Secret Technique
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
steel horizon
Thats good for 613
vernal grotto
I'm seeing that with 11.0.5, neither Vigor/Thsitle Tea nor Subterfuge are recommended anymore. I'm a little unclear why that is, wouldn't Subterfuge extend our Shadow Dance window essentially?
at least for being able to Shadowstrike instead of Backstab?
pliant topaz
no subterfuge virtually does nothing for sub except give u 6 seconds of allowing stealth abilities after breaking stealth/vanish - which is almost entirely worthlerss for pve)
shadowstriking 3 times outside of dance 3 times every 2 minutes is almost negligable amounts of damage
but at the end of the day youre not taking these (or vigor/tea) because the alternative is better
in subs case, deeper strat, lethality+cb, supercharger is significantly better in all pve content at all times
honest dome
can someone tell me why its giving me the 2 sht cp's there without using a builder? like u can see that im not spending any energy on a builder there
is it because i get them inside the global from the builder before?
balmy notch
i think premed has a delay sometimes if its laggy, i get it a lot when theres 52 million people hitting the dummies and server response gets funky
but not THAT log holy thats like 2 sec later unless video is slowed
theres like half a second delay sometimes where i get 5 cps and then 2 more to max from premed
vernal grotto
but at the end of the day youre not taking these (or vigor/tea) because the alte...
I haven't plyaed without Vigor in ages - should there be no more energy issues with Subtlety without?
honest dome
its not slowed or anything and it does happen more than once
pliant topaz
I haven't plyaed without Vigor in ages - should there be no more energy issues w...
yes
!design
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".
balmy notch
its not slowed or anything and it does happen more than once
keep an eye out for it i think its always with premeditation
honest dome
its 6 sec after SD ends
pliant topaz
aha aha
nimble burrow
masters i found myself when my flag has 15s left to go, i already got >= 1.7 stack of SD and 2.6 >= symbol, then it overcap when i have flag. did i miss one Symbol + Dance combo before?
pliant topaz
then youre most likely underdance/under soding
nimble burrow
oh, masters how should i save this, bc we cant cast secret when flag enter the "15s lines"?
tepid trellis
should have spent a symbols earlier
proven beacon
good evening all. alot of guides i read on sub say that trickster as "bugs" within the spec but i cant find any information on what they are. is anyone here able to inform me as to what they are?
nimble burrow
hum.. i will learn it more to know how to control the timeline
ty masters
oh also i want to ask the basic timeline for flag, when i finish the 1st dance, the 1st symbol got 3-4s left, should i cast dance in this symbol or we hold until the 1st symbol gone and we sync the 2nd dance with 2nd symbol?
nimble burrow
oh
i always do the wrong thing, now i know, ty stealthi!
sullen hare
Bac2bac dances!
spark tusk
I am finding myself dancing too little, symbols is easy to judge but dance I find I'm under using
harsh socket
tepid trellis
I am finding myself dancing too little, symbols is easy to judge but dance I fin...
just playing around your sectech cd, and stop dancing when there is 30 sec left on flag
smth like
2x dance - 1x dance - 1x dance - 2x dance, for like first 1min30 this should work out fine, you are just gonna have 1 extra SoD somewhere you can plant
if you wanna hit the 1min30 timer
hazy breach
but at the end of the day youre not taking these (or vigor/tea) because the alte...
CB isnt that far from tea tbf
Theyre both kinda mid talents
pliant topaz
yeah im actually pretty sure tea is better for deahtstalker m+
tepid trellis
cant wait for this boss to fucking die
lucid beacon
oak portal
Is shadowstrike more effective than shruiken storm in dance until what target count?
oblique spruce
!up
wicked joltBOT
hazy breach
Is shadowstrike more effective than shruiken storm in dance until what target c...
As trickster always
still drift
Do I create thread for log review or is it just post and someone with access will?
!log
tribal blade
@alpine wraith do you have a WA reminder to symbols after a wipe
short radish
oh no its deathly shadows all over again
wind canopy
Huh?
short radish
i have ptsd from weak auras reminding me to do stuff before bosses when playing sub
wind canopy
Oh
steel horizon
can someone tell me why its giving me the 2 sht cp's there without using a build...
its a bug with replicating shadows. @balmy notch
lilac stag
roflmao first time running NW as Tricky. forgot getting sent down would send the mob to tank aggro and evade
light imp
1.15m dps as trick 619 ilvl +9 GB, why do i feel like i was doing more as DS lol
tribal blade
roflmao first time running NW as Tricky. forgot getting sent down would send the...
haha if you're lucky you can cancelaura tricks quick enough and the mob doesn't snap up
and then can kill
lilac stag
1.15m dps as trick 619 ilvl +9 GB, why do i feel like i was doing more as DS lol
Probably not aggressive enough with cds
tribal blade
or evising while flawless form isn't up
lilac stag
I hit10 milli on the opening, forgot to pot. 
proven beacon
alot of guides i read on sub say that trickster as "bugs" within the spec but i cant find any information on what they are. is anyone here able to inform me as to what they are?
lilac stag
!bugs
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue
light imp
Probably not aggressive enough with cds
eh sometimes pulls didnt line up well but for the most part they were never NOT on cooldown
supple flower
I haven't played subtlety in a while but decided to try playing it again today. However, my old Shadow Dance macro (below) no longer works. The Shadowstrike cast fails because I'm not in stealth. I'm pretty sure this used to work, I checked an old vod from a year ago to make sure. Is this a known thing? Was it an intentional change for some reason or is it a bug?
#showtooltip Shadow Dance
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shadowstrike
balanced
pliant topaz
<#124169701881282560>
now imagine if u had a disc instead of resto that would pi him
tribal blade
now imagine if u had a disc instead of resto that would pi him
REEE
pliant topaz
on every ascendance
tribal blade
actually why am i mad, getting a free carry
pliant topaz
yep
pliant topaz
not relly
u bring 2 enhance
and aug
i swear thats meta
problem is
ppal and aug make 1 enhance live
how do u make 2nd one live
wind canopy
how do u make 2nd one live
Turning them into a FDK
wind canopy
https://tenor.com/view/drums-vibing-apt-ros%C3%A9-vibe-gif-13830061943707822111
Also you better not be turning into a Miz/Zempai :3
pliant topaz
they did but they kinda still die without sac
like they have 2 now instead of 1
so on some encounters they just flat out die
2.5 ig
pliant topaz
Also you better not be turning into a Miz/Zempai :3
its been stucck in my head for 2 days
tribal blade
ah i see
pliant topaz
im losing it
tribal blade
well when they're gapping by that much you just eat the bresses
wind canopy
im losing it
Smh my head
tribal blade
and the dungeon goes way faster
pliant topaz
well when they're gapping by that much you just eat the bresses
I will say though, sub lowkey cranks
tribal blade
I will say though, sub lowkey cranks
i'm a little sick of sin's ST, i wanna play sub in keys
i played sub on kyveza prog tonight and it was great
pliant topaz
like this was a cot i did last night 13 i think 2nd boss
its with aug but like, i cranked the fuck out of the boss
tribal blade
yeah that's sexy
sub's ST is so much better
in M+ talents
i feel like a wet noodle as sin
pliant topaz
ive been playing some more sub keys and like, subs not bad imo
i like that my cds are different timers as ennhance
it can cover different pulls
u add an aug and youre kinda covered for every pull
tribal blade
very true
tribal blade
goddamn
topaz raptor
Wtf is that mists
pliant topaz
issue is, as sub im never getting in
tribal blade
yeah that's what i'm most worried about
pliant topaz
but im probbaly gonna start pushing later in this season after the semester is over
and wont need to pug hehe
pliant topaz
nice nice
tribal blade
solo queueing it's just way easier getting into shit as sin
pliant topaz
yeah im just gonna get the homies together after my semester
and we go blast
im really liking sub in keys ngl
tribal blade
hm you know what, my guildie just asked if i wanted to run his 12 ara with him
to help
i'll ask if i can run sub
pliant topaz
these are my sub keys im lowkkey kinda really surprised im as high as i am on sub leader board
tribal blade
ah he sent his key without me
pliant topaz
i might actually fix these as sub
narrow shadow
The problem with Sub is that it loses the AoE silence from sin, which I think is too good in high keys
tribal blade
where am i, i haven't done a sub key in ages
narrow shadow
Or rather, the problem is that sin's utility is too oppressive
tribal blade
lol still in the top 20
pliant topaz
ill get all 13s on sub this week maybe
if i have time
maybe i try sneaking it into 14s
i got a 14 cot on me maybe i try it tmrw as sub
pliant topaz
ez +2
tribal blade
that's a good opportunity to test sub
pliant topaz
i like db with tfd
pliant topaz
send it
amber ocean
is there a good rule of thumb to know when to hold shadow dance/symbols for blades window? like stop at around 30 seconds left in the cd to get your 2 dance stacks ready?
amber ocean
perfect ty, just trying to sort out the order of things post patch
pliant topaz
pulsar epoch
Did every assa go Sub now?
pliant topaz
vat
haughty mural
Why should they
fresh gale
spark tusk
no sod/dance if flag cd < 30
This seems like a simple enough rule without charge predictions honestly
vale pine
no sectech if flag cd< 20
no symbols if flag <25 sec
spark tusk
I struggled hard tonight this was my first time playing with replicating
And I just felt like I was getting combo points all over the place at random times and munching them and overcapping because of the lag
Felt really bad
pulsar epoch
it just seemed like every1 went Sub since patch
pliant topaz
no symbols if flag <25 sec
wasnt it 20<x<40? havent looked at the apl in a bit
but eh if u can have it up by flag sure, if nto dont is the main idea
thats true, but ii kinda like what u have more for keys ngl
because things ar emore dynamic. flags not always on cd etc
vale pine
wasnt it 20<x<40? havent looked at the apl in a bit
apl is <30
but i tried <25 and its the same
we run swift
pliant topaz
apl is <30
the one currently pushed checks 20 and 40 i think
uncut bloom
it just seemed like every1 went Sub since patch
Assa got the tiniest of nerfs - everything remains the same.
vale pine
yes
pliant topaz
first one is the >=30 u have for sod
pliant topaz
fair enough
vale pine
because of swift i assume
pliant topaz
I think in practice its not an important enough distinction
it keeps the number of casts of sod/dnaces u get the same in 1.5 min intervals
which is kinda what matters
sweet summit
heheh guys my vers is 8%.....
molten citrus
Do you guys think there’s any shot they buff Deepening Shadows at some point since Dust was removed?
molten citrus
It used to give more CDR than it does now iirc?
pliant topaz
yeah 40% more
vale pine
it was even more in older xpacs
molten citrus
The spec is very Dance starved in pvp right now
vale pine
thats because the entire cdr component requires uptime
and in pvp you typically work in burst intervalls
molten citrus
Well we farm Dances back
molten citrus
Yeah
vale pine
and your opponents will try to cc you once you use a cooldown
molten citrus
Idk it just feels pretty bad atm, compared to before Dust
vale pine
dust gave you noticable more cdr
molten citrus
Like now we run Flag which we never really did since SL, which I don’t necessarily mind
Flag and Blades are strong af synced up
vale pine
flag is punishing
molten citrus
you probably play deathstalker in pvp
We’re kinda experimenting with both right now
pliant topaz
like can u realisitcally get 10 sec restealths?
vale pine
isn't is 12 sec?
molten citrus
The new First Dance is uh… very disappointing
pliant topaz
i think its 10 in pvp
pliant topaz
The new First Dance is uh… very disappointing
yeah i thought so
molten citrus
1 guy has been trying it out, Nahj
pliant topaz
i saw it, and was like, theres no shot this thing is viable in pvp
like u would get railed
and thats if u can get a clean restealth
molten citrus
Could you post the tooltip
tribal blade
@pliant topaz sub felt pretty good to play, but it was a bit hard to judge because i was having a bunch of input lag since my ISP has been shitting the bed today
and also not a very clean run
molten citrus
Not at my pc but I’ll look it up rq so I can remember
molten citrus
You only have to stay OOC for 6 seconds right?
pliant topaz
molten citrus
That’s not too difficult
pliant topaz
3 sec extra and 10 sec out of combat for pvp
pliant topaz
i spell queued a LOT during dance quite a few times
yeah RS has been eating up a lot of my cps tilting me ngl its real hard not to munch stuff
molten citrus
Ffs lol
pliant topaz
That’s such a bizarre thing to modify in pvp
yep.
tribal blade
yeah RS has been eating up a lot of my cps tilting me ngl its real hard not to m...
yeah rs bug is awful
agreed
pliant topaz
i saw it, i was like theres no shot
vale pine
pliant topaz
then they doubled down on it
molten citrus
Like I’m loving Supercharger, Symbols charges, etc
molten citrus
But right now the Dance uptime feels trash
pliant topaz
Like I’m loving Supercharger, Symbols charges, etc
my idea was make tfd work kinda like fiery rush for fire. when in stealth dance and sod recharge faster
tribal blade
dance uptime feels better than before to me
pliant topaz
so when u do get a restealth even forr a few seconds, u farm back a good amount of dance/sod
molten citrus
I’m talking about pvp specifically
molten citrus
It’s a lot worse
pliant topaz
if the tank breaks a pull into 2 pulls or does a bad chan youre done
vale pine
my idea was make tfd work kinda like fiery rush for fire. when in stealth dance ...
tbh i think thats a good choice node with it, no?
remove the 6 sec requirement
and the node becomes interessting
tribal blade
they could either fix dance uptime by giving us more energy outside of dance
or revert the nerf to deepening
vale pine
the cdr was 1 sec /cp on dance at certain points in time ^^
pliant topaz
i had a few ideas for it. 1) make dance and sod recharge faster during blades 2) make dance and so recharge faster when in stealth 3) when you get stealth your first cast of dance also gives u sod
i was playing around with these
pliant topaz
the thing is i kinda agree with eleem on this that, we dont neccesarily want more uptime on sod/dance
but rather more power moved into dance
vale pine
or well...
pliant topaz
but also pvp is breaking down a bit so idk
vale pine
depends how far we look back
molten citrus
I still don’t really understand why they increased the energy cost of builders really
vale pine
mid legion it was 1.5 sec / cp
tribal blade
but rather more power moved into dance
more damage from modifiers and stuff liek that?
molten citrus
Pressing Mutilate in pvp is almost trolling it’s so bad lol
vale pine
shadowlands it become 1 sec / cp
tribal blade
backstab costing that much energy and doing 0 damage is really feels bad
vale pine
because dance duration was chanegd to be 8 sec
DF was the first time it was significantly nerfed
initially to .6
then adjusted back to .7 because .6 was to tight
and in 10.2 then nerfed to .5
pliant topaz
more damage from modifiers and stuff liek that?
well to be compltly honest, i want evis to hit really hard, and cps to be more valuable
vale pine
just to also add this
pliant topaz
whih is why i dont like blades/ infinite cp from shadowcraft
vale pine
we had enveloping shadows as talents
molten citrus
the thing is i kinda agree with eleem on this that, we dont neccesarily want mor...
Yeah I mean I could see that working for PvE, they tend to just nerf it if Dance is too powerful in PvP
pliant topaz
but thaat wont happen so w/
tribal blade
whih is why i dont like blades/ infinite cp from shadowcraft
agree shadowcraft should be toned down
molten citrus
Nerf*
vale pine
whih is why i dont like blades/ infinite cp from shadowcraft
would be a very big change
i rather have blades passive during dance
molten citrus
I’d love it if Dance damage was even remotely meaningful
Without blades and flag
vale pine
which solves multiple problems at once
removes buttons, people still feel like there are too much cooldowns
and adds more power back to non major cooldowns
(and back to shadow dance)
tribal blade
most of our power should come from dance
vale pine
Without blades and flag
and secret
molten citrus
Sec tech isn’t super powerful in pvp
vale pine
flag is a decent/good option to emphasize on it once every 1 min 30
vale pine
secret is heavily nerfed in pvp
vale pine
pvp is such a weird game mode
molten citrus
Yep
vale pine
where most finishers hit like wet noodle
weird because, if you come from pve
you need to completely change your expectations
of what is important / does damage
tribal blade
yeah the amount of scaling down of sub's stuff in pvp is wild
like our mastery is super nerfed in pvp
so is evis dmg iirc
vale pine
its not good for the game btw.
sweet summit
pvp isnt good for the game lol
vale pine
makes playing pvp feel rly bad
cursive vapor
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
and the initial learning curve a lot higher
tribal blade
pvp in a game like wow is kinda weird
vale pine
no wonder that people sucessively just play assassiantion
tribal blade
because of how insanely different all the classes are from each other
vale pine
which is almost 1:1 pve playstyle
tribal blade
it's a lot calmer in pve
but in pvp you have to on top of everything track ALL the drs
all the stun drs
pliant topaz
I’d love it if Dance damage was even remotely meaningful
is it not? dance even on its own, is an enormous modifier
tribal blade
and pre plan all your cc
cloud rover
but in pvp you have to on top of everything track ALL the drs
Which of All These comments
pliant topaz
beause blades and shadowcraft give infinite cps
molten citrus
like our mastery is super nerfed in pvp
It isn’t nerfed in pvp
cloud rover
tribal blade
It isn’t nerfed in pvp
oh really? i remember seeing them do it in previous expansions
maybe they changed that stuff
i haven't kept up with pvp changes in the game
molten citrus
Maybe in the past yeah but it hasn’t been for all of SL/DF etc as far as I’m aware
tribal blade
ahhhh ok my mistake
i remember back when i was still pvping i would see a post "nerfing sub rogue mastery by another x%"
tribal blade
haha true
molten citrus
is it not? dance even on its own, is an enormous modifier
Dances are their own are pretty bad in pvp yeah. There’s too many other modifiers for them to let Dance alone have okay damage.
tribal blade
bro since i stopped pvping i completely don't give a shit about it anymore
i'm living on super old info 😉
cloud rover
bro since i stopped pvping i completely don't give a shit about it anymore
Based
molten citrus
That’s why we’re forced into using Flag now and throwing the kitchen sink at people to land a kill
round latch
like our mastery is super nerfed in pvp
dont think its nerfed fam
ah trickz mentioned
tribal blade
dont think its nerfed fam
i got corrected yeah
pliant topaz
Dances are their own are pretty bad in pvp yeah. There’s too many other modifier...
what even does damage in pvp
cloud rover
Where crit immune gear
pliant topaz
last timed i pvpd i just kidneyd people and my mage killed them while i watched
molten citrus
what even does damage in pvp
Right now evis does good damage during blades and flag. Sec tech does okay as trickster
round latch
what even does damage in pvp
alligning cds and alot of vers and mastery ofc
tribal blade
playing DB rupture is actually kinda cracked damage
tribal blade
yeah rupture went hard in pvp
molten citrus
Meaningless pad damage
molten citrus
We could still play that way now, but Flag playstyle is the only reliable way to win unfortunately
molten citrus
Yeah it’s a very awkward ability to use in pvp
supple flower
Apologies for the repetition, I asked this question a couple of hours ago but didn't get a reply. I've since found the same macro in the current subtlety guide on wowhead but it currently doesn't work for some reason. The Shadowstrike cast fails because it says your not in stealth. I really like being able to do this so I'm hoping to find out what's going on with this.
#showtooltip
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shadowstrike
yeah pretty sure this macro broke
tribal blade
Apologies for the repetition, I asked this question a couple of hours ago but di...
i used to use this macro for a long time, but they broke it
not worth using anymore
supple flower
So we don't know if this was intentional, a bug, or unintentional change?
molten citrus
Likely just a bug
round latch
fuu typing intensifies
vale pine
Apologies for the repetition, I asked this question a couple of hours ago but di...
they broke it in a update sadly, so you need to press the key 2 times now for it to work
round latch
tribal blade
@pliant topaz timed a 12 DB with sub and went up 5 rankings lol
wtf
this is crazy
supple flower
they broke it in a update sadly, so you need to press the key 2 times now for it...
Do you know if they're aware it broke and if not can they be made aware. I'd love for this to get fixed at some point, but if they don't even know it's broken, that won't happen.
molten citrus
That’d likely be so low on their priority list of fixes ngl
pliant topaz
okay but like the more i think about it the more i like the idea. faster recharge on dance/sod while in stealth
tribal blade
i used to watch his videos during S2 of DF
tribal blade
okay but like the more i think about it the more i like the idea. faster recharg...
would you need a cap on it?
molten citrus
The class has many other bugs that are more impactful than a macro unfortunately
pliant topaz
would you need a cap on it?
wym cap?
uneven shard
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
Do you know if they're aware it broke and if not can they be made aware. I'd lov...
they possibly know, but it would be such a small insignificant problem, that they won't fix it
molten citrus
okay but like the more i think about it the more i like the idea. faster recharg...
That’d be dope if it also worked during Subt and Dance
supple flower
they possibly know, but it would be such a small insignificant problem, that the...
I understand but I'd like to try reporting it anyway. Is there a better method than the in-game bug reporter for reporting bugs like this?
molten citrus
Like .5 seconds off the CD per second spent in stealth/subt/dance
Or something of that nature
round latch
The class has many other bugs that are more impactful than a macro unfortunately
very based
molten citrus
I understand but I'd like to try reporting it anyway. Is there a better method t...
That’s prolly the best method ye
There’s also a bug report forum
jade urchin
I understand but I'd like to try reporting it anyway. Is there a better method t...
gods strongest soldier, not giving up trying
supple flower
Cool. Thanks for taking the time to answer my question.
molten citrus
On the blizzard forums
tribal blade
was bout to say you can make a post on the forums
it won't get much traction though because like 12 people play sub
molten citrus
very based
It’s the unfortunate truth what else can I say
vale pine
I understand but I'd like to try reporting it anyway. Is there a better method t...
ingame report is probably the only option that we have
sweet summit
any1 seen megalobox ? worth the watch ?
molten citrus
Is there a bug with Coup btw?
Where it just never goes off again, like it gets stuck or something
pliant topaz
That’d be dope if it also worked during Subt and Dance
maaaybe. it gets tricky if it works during dance/subterfuge tbh. because in pve we really dont wnat to increase dance uptime, it just goes down a very slippery sloap. my goal here is to further allow u to have meaningful and impactful gameplay in pvp and m+ (which u get with more sod and dances)
but u need to play well and get successful restealths for them
vale pine
Where it just never goes off again, like it gets stuck or something
there was one where it didn't fire but it seemed fixed
molten citrus
there was one where it didn't fire but it seemed fixed
I think it’s still broken
As of yesterday at least
vale pine
molten citrus
You get stuck at 4 stacks and Coup never procs again
Or something along those lines
molten citrus
which is kinda my goal
Yeah I see where you’re coming from now, that might be cool the only problem is we really don’t run away for restealths much these days
Sometimes very quickly to snag a subterfuge window
pliant topaz
Yeah I see where you’re coming from now, that might be cool the only problem is ...
thats kinda my goal. my understanding from sub was that its goal was try to get restealths in reopn on people strategically.
and this would lean into that
atleast thats what i heard it would do in shaodwlands
with MA legendary or w.e
so thi would promote that playstyle again
pliant topaz
were those the good old days?
idk if thas a playstyle you guys would prefer or not
it seems more interesting and sub like to me
molten citrus
Not anymore just because of how the game has shifted
It’s become very “pve” we like to call it
Do as much damage as possible, as much aoe as possible and micro CC
pliant topaz
hmm htats not very interesting pvp combat to me sad
molten citrus
The game as a whole has moved away from set ups and strategy
pliant topaz
i guess the nerfs to ccs has that effect
molten citrus
Yeah it’s very sad
pliant topaz
i really dislke some of their approaches ot the game
like its interesting to think about frustration caused by lets say successful rmp setups
and say yeah pvpers dont enjoy the mode because its very frustrating to play against that. but also at the same time, its an interesting thing becaus it doesnt happen at all elo ranges
happens at higher elos where the opponents are also better, so they can defend themselves and counter it
which introduces a satisfying combat
rather than just do more damage
which is just braindead slob design
molten citrus
vale pine
there is just a lack of good execution or consistency
molten citrus
You just described what everyone at the top end has been saying since DF
vale pine
pvp games need meaningful counterplay to feel good
it is why rengar gets nerfed quick when he becomes too good in league of legends
he oneshots you in most iterations before you could even react
the lack of counterplay is furstating and also directly shows how outdated/bad the champion is designed
wow pvp should follow similar practices
pliant topaz
You just described what everyone at the top end has been saying since DF
well its kinda similar to my main in leauge. there was a famous interview where they said they keep zed actively weak because its a very frustrating champion to play against in lower elo. its very easy to counter it if youre good at the gme and are kowledgable in higher elo, but in low elo it makes the players feel like "they fucked up" instead of being able to blame the game which would remove their frustration
because "they didnt die cuz theyre bad, games just stpid and devs suck. not their fault"
but with zed they couldnt do that because it was obvious they fucked up.
vale pine
zed was for most part designed to just shit on you in lane
pliant topaz
but with wow, its not like that
because for you to also pull off clean setups, u also needd to be very good. which is not the case in lower elos
vale pine
champion deisgns only the one playing has fun with are a problem
its why zed is "undertuned"
pliant topaz
but zed could kill u in lower elos without really any need for skill from the zed player. only in higher elos would u need to actually be really good
vale pine
its not only lower elos
zed had for a long time no lane counters
the problem the champ had was only
that you could counter him with a good champion setup
and it means most players had a harder time to make him work outside of lane
even if they had a secure 2-3 kill advantage just because of how its designed
pliant topaz
after the nerf to his R when he couldnt insta R back, zed became significantly weaker in higher elos which meant it couldnt be as effective in team fights
nerfs to its W and its very predictable traed pattern made it also easy to bully in lane
there are things u can do to make it not oppresive
which is what they did
round latch
i guess the nerfs to ccs has that effect
yup ,its blizzard being unable to find a good balance between things in pvp and so they pressed the ''F@ck'em all'' button
molten citrus
vale pine
also for what its worth other parts of the game changed too
champions often have good lane clear now
and can actively counter zed's dominance in lane
also supports got introduced which can deny him more
pliant topaz
the point is, they saw a problem with something causing a lot of frustration even when it has clear weaknesses
so they kept it weak but playable
to keep the balance of the game
assassins serve a purpose they offer a unique play experience for everyone in the game
smae with bruisers
vale pine
zeds clear weakness was only that you needed to convert your free 2-3 kills in lane
to a game win
because zed fell off with game time
pliant topaz
thats most assassins
thats the concept of assassins
u get a lead around level 6, u apply pressure and end game before people can scale
thats the unique play experience they offer
and its important to have that
pliant topaz
if every game would be 2 scaling comps then u would get 2020 LCK
and have fist blood at 35 minuets
vale pine
means champions which can generate leads early on
pliant topaz
with -3K viewers
vale pine
became more powerful
yes it can go both ways
if you make the games too short
its just early champs
if you make stalling easy
or introduce hyper scaler which get online too quick
(like smolder)
you get games with only hyper scalers/late game
pliant topaz
thats kinda the whole point of the game/matchup
the t1 geng game 4
wtf did pyke do?
it got t1 early lead enough before it hit level 8
but once it was 8 keria was useless
pliant topaz
he was 100% useless from 8 until the very last fight where skarner got a double stun on every person that could itnerrupt pykes setup
vale pine
it is a valid strategy, but also just like in wow
the game is not consistent in tuning around early/mid/late
pliant topaz
he couldnt get a single E/R reset becuse he was simply countered in every fight easily
pliant topaz
the game is not consistent in tuning around early/mid/late
thats kinda how meta works
sometimes its scaling meta becuse early champs are too weak
vale pine
meta works in
pliant topaz
it can create unique play experiences
vale pine
you establish a game strategy that works, with certain champions
pliant topaz
but when your entire meta is defined by comp x simply does output more damage so htey win
then you have no gaemplay, yu have nothing interesting, you have no meta
vale pine
and because these champions are so popular
you can start picking champions which are good specifically against this strategy
this is how the meta develops
pliant topaz
pretty sure riot wants to enforce metas
pliant topaz
lke morgana jungle meta was not an accident
lethality caitlyn was not an accident
talong jungle wasnt an accident
plush roost
R/leagueoflegends is leaking into my favorite sub rogue channel
vale pine
even tho probably accidental
plush roost
Also for real PeyzPal inted that last fight how do you get dry skarner ulted brother
keen dome
They should add huttball to WoW. That's the best pvp mode in an MMO ever made.
pliant topaz
okay that wasnt their fault
- faker was dead
it was a 4v3 theyre runing skarner down
plush roost
He has FLASH
plush roost
Nah you're coping brother q+r did not hide that animation well. I saw it and yelled so loud lmfao
vale pine
tbh mistakes are what makes the games interessting
pliant topaz
Nah you're coping brother q+r did not hide that animation well. I saw it and yel...
Well I know
It hides the animation, but idk how much of it, but yeah he probably coulda flashed it
plush roost
But yeah Peyz is still a rookie and clearly shook from the FlyQ series
So i cant flame too hard, but man your 1 job is live right there haha
pliant topaz
Yeah, unfortunate, but man poppy was carrying geng so hard
plush roost
That shit dry as fuck haha
plush roost
And cleanze
So he could even have cleansed the slow
Chovy could react and back step it is all im sayin
pliant topaz
T1 FIGHTIIING
plush roost
True I'm a T1 hater but they played well this entire tournament
Even Faker in knockouts is on monster form which is unusual
Anyway i pray BLG win so a different player can get the spotlight when Faker role swaps next year
Which is exactly how you play sub rogue right back on topic!
plush roost
Mhmm since the G2 match in swiss, I've been feeling T1 wins worlds again
Zeus was playing awfully all year, and now he's back
vale pine
when is finals?
also i think we should move the discussion to #1113807388408029204
(tho there isn't that much conversation happening currently)
keen dome
It's interesting to read as someone who has zero knowledge about LoL
plush roost
Probably sound like lunatics haha
vale pine
they might be a bit older but most of what is stated is still correct
keen dome
It reminds me when Destiny 2 made a very aggresive MMR system. So every single match was a perfectly balanced match-up regardless of skill level. So every single match was very competitive. Turns out it wasn't very fun at lower PvP levels haha
vale pine
perfect balance is never interessting
keen dome
Yeah
vale pine
the perfect imbalance video goes well over it
but it is also something we indirectly talked about
keen dome
Destiny 2 was the only 'mmo' I've ever been real good at pvp in, too.
vale pine
e.g. when discussing what each spec brings to the table
plush roost
Call of duty did an experiment a while back, where they secretly didnt use SBMM for a section of their player base and they hated how uneven games were
vale pine
and why it should be played over the other
vale pine
lol at higher ranks
plush roost
Turns out being stomped constantly ruined player retention
vale pine
often gets rly bad in matchmaking because of the too low player pool
plush roost
Oh yeah it does especially in NA
plush roost
The classic 4 chall 1 gm vs 3 master 1 dia 1 chall lobby
vale pine
because the matchmaking tries to balance it out
plush roost
Guess ill lose xdd
vale pine
by adding a lower rank to a high mmr loby it seems
becomes worse because of main and off role
so can get very wild
plush roost
They've been trying to fix that the last few splits this season
High elo matchmaking, not very successful tho
plush roost
It was very humbling for me to be the master tier scrub in a challenger lobby, the speed in which they play is just completely different
vale pine
which leads to people making alt accounts
which means less player playing
making queue timers even worse
keen dome
Yeah
That's what happened in D2 when they messed with it. At high levels you could be sitting 2+ hours waiting for a match
plush roost
Yep they even tried having a inhouse matchmaking system for high elo
That was only active during peak hours
Called champions queue
And it was quickly abandoned
Because matches were "unbalanced"
Cause 1 team was 3 pros 2 academy/tier3 players and another was 1 pro 4 tier2 players
Even tho they're respectively similar in skill
wild vine
which means less player playing
End of season being based on your current rating instead of your peak doesnt help either, many only play the games they need to play after reaching some specific "goal"
vale pine
and it turns out, people didn't like it that much
plush roost
End of season being based on your current rating instead of your peak doesnt hel...
In peak mmr that doesn't really happen, you have to play
vale pine
the game ended up "too balanced"
manes champion designes which are too good, but balanced in win rate
wild vine
In peak mmr that doesn't really happen, you have to play
You can still play less tho
vale pine
ended up getting popular
and most of them didn't have great conuterplay or ended up fun to play against
plush roost
You can still play less tho
Ofc, but you'll regress. Tale as old as time especially in the master tier 300-500lp range
"i used to be gm you idiot" yeah but you're not anymore and thats cause you played less
jade urchin
diamond/master players are known for playing decay games only, or 15 games per day
really few inbetween
vale pine
the system also changed
wild vine
diamond/master players are known for playing decay games only, or 15 games per d...
Yeppers
sweet summit
how did u guys hit high elo in league
vale pine
the rank distribution moved up, a lot of prior dia tier is now in higher ranks
vale pine
it was done to keep giving the illusion of progression for people
that did play a lot
for a longer time
vale pine
its an interessting trick, and it worked
plush roost
And it has sent some of those players reeling that they cant get to masters anymore
plush roost
how did u guys hit high elo in league
Played game, watched my own vods, whatever i died to I wouldn't die to again
Then just lose to improve basically
plush roost
Anybody with enough commitment can get to diamond imo
candid field
just queue it up
plush roost
Yeah ranked anxiety was weird, I felt it for like a few hours after hitting masters the first time
vale pine
(i haven't played actively since seasons, i just infrequently play 1-2 games, my peak was somewhere mid/high dia in earlier seasons of lol)
plush roost
Then i was like eh, if i deserve to be here then I'll just win more
vale pine
(but its interessting to keep up with the game and changes)
vale pine
Then just lose to improve basically
you don't need to lose to improve
but need to realize that losing is the better learning process
plush roost
Nope, that was just my method
vale pine
playing from behind is one thing most people struggle heavily
even up to the highest ranks
plush roost
Yeah its really OP to know how to eat resources while you're behind
vale pine
so what many do is just always pick winning matchups
candid field
playing from behind is one thing most people struggle heavily
unless you play with boosted people then they dont know how to ever play with a lead
wild vine
playing from behind is one thing most people struggle heavily
The thing people struggle with seemingly is losing but not inting
vale pine
but game knowlage starts to go down
plush roost
Yeah the micro skillfloor of league
Is insane now
Insec kicks and rflashes
Second nature
vale pine
thats because most games are played a lot more impulsive
if you lose a early trade and get behind
ff20 go next
what this means tho is, if you don't give up
candid field
they need to play dota
vale pine
most people can't play mid or late game anymore
so you almost auto win
if you get to mid/late
sweet summit
plush roost
Yeah its part of why Vlad is an elo hack
Cant be punished by inexperienced players and scales mid/late gigahard
vale pine
you usually don't need a lot of "hacks" to win in low elo
you can usually capitalize on your enemies lack of game knowlage
it is how some top streamers entertain their viewers
e.g. ratinrl
he essentially destroys low elo games to look like a god instead of playing on his real mmr levels
and he is a very good player, so he wouldn't need to do that
but it gives a very positive feedback for his viewership
(tho i don't follow his streams, so can't say if this changed)
neverless, lets talk a bit wow 😛
soft summit
When?
rain smelt
Why do we send sectech first finisher in our first dance window?
Dont we wanna build macabre stacks?
vale pine
we alway send it first
or 2nd
because of supercharger
and because the cdr of secret is tight
rain smelt
Tight as in sending the next sectech within flagellation window?
vale pine
tight as in
rain smelt
And dont we wanna blades before sectech for extra 20% shadow damage?
vale pine
shadow blades is 16 seconds and not 20
which means you need to send dance back to back
rain smelt
(I mean i know we don't since you posted it like this, just wondering)
vale pine
and the 2nd dance wants to have a secret techniques too
if you send it later
it becomes rly hard to do that
especially on deathstalker
rain smelt
I was about to ask if that was the same as DS and trickster?
rain smelt
Okay thanks. But basically the opener is the same as DS and trickster now?
vale pine
yes
rain smelt
Cool thanks.
vale pine
no problem, if you have more questions, just ask
i suggest just tying it on dummy shortly
and then see what seems difficult
near rivet
we dont delay coup by pressing BP anymore, right?
vale pine
no, we don't do that anymore
gray zephyr
I'm working on my openers and rotation and sometimes I feel like game doesn't register my abilities and and lose a lot of time because of this. It's better on dummy in orgrimmar but it's still an issue. Is there any fix for that?
Also shadow craft combo points sometimes return full co cp very late and I waste them with another builder ☹️ it feels so bad
near rivet
it kinda feels bad to use it just before sec tec though
vale pine
I'm working on my openers and rotation and sometimes I feel like game doesn't re...
thats a bug
this one
sweet summit
depression
sweet summit
: O
vale pine
but well, that was in 2023
rain smelt
Probably so hard they just hope people forget about it by now
vale pine
it is sadly a gameplay bug that you get reminded every time it triggers
gray zephyr
It probably doesn't help that sub is such a niche spec
sweet summit
petition for blizzard to nuke sub
vale pine
petition for blizzard to nuke sub
the spec plays well now tbh
it still has some rough edges
sweet summit
no im in love with the spec
vale pine
but 11.0.5 ended up surprisinghly good
sweet summit
just holy the bugs
gray zephyr
So what is better:
Waiting 1sec when at 5-6 stacks and decide between finisher/builder
Or
Just go with builder and lose cp
vale pine
you missremember
acrobatic strikes never worked
on secret technique
for 2 full tiers
and this was problematic
basically you lost 10% or more of your dps
if you stood wrong
near rivet
replicating shadows were introduced in bfa
rain smelt
the spec plays well now tbh
| agree. It's also a lot more noob-friendly than the vanish cd-reduction + fitting 3 sectechs into trickster opener
vale pine
ohh you mean bfa
ye the orignial replicating was weird
and was buggy
and never got fixed
near rivet
i think they rushed it to replace some other azerite power
vale pine
| agree. It's also a lot more noob-friendly than the vanish cd-reduction + fitti...
it is still highly confusing
because
sweet summit
sub is great feeling now
vale pine
you need to handle symbols/dances/secret
sweet summit
just some bugs
near rivet
but i dont remember what was that
vale pine
between majoy cooldowns
sweet summit
that make me die inside
vale pine
i think they rushed it to replace some other azerite power
we used nights vengence
rly cool one
evi does more damage after rupture casts
near rivet
yes
vale pine
it created a burst sequence
near rivet
we did low cp nightblade before every dance
vale pine
yes
near rivet
was kinda fun with blood of the enemy azerite skill
vale pine
i optimized the use multiple times
initially it was
switching between rupture/evis casts
but then over time i figured out the best way to play it
which was the mentioned
rain smelt
you need to handle symbols/dances/secret
I dont disagree, but I think some specs has some degree of confusing to it. Sub has just had it lowered quite a bit in 11.0.5
vale pine
one thing to keep in mind
rupture back than was very low duration
and dance too
so NV as it was, wouldn't work well in current design
(you just don't use rupture a lot)
gray zephyr
So what is better:
Waiting 1sec when at 5-6 stacks and decide between finisher/...
What is your take on that? I'd love to have opinion from someone experienced
near rivet
its bugging me, why they introduced the replicating shadows azerite thing, i cant find what was replaced
gray zephyr
I assume in shadow dance it's better to just send ability every GDC
And between we can wait since it's downtime anyway
vale pine
its bugging me, why they introduced the replicating shadows azerite thing, i can...
you might think of a tier set bonus
near rivet
nah, there were no tier sets in bfa
only funny armor with funny rings
maybe they simply added the azerite without deleting anything else
shy ermine
i know literally nothing about coding or making games
but the delay makes it look like the calculation is taking too long
why being able to apply 2 ruptures instead of 1 makes that happen i have no idea
gray zephyr
I assume because of the bugs it's hard to get close to 100% simmed DPS, what is "decent" score? I get to around 90% at ST
vale pine
the sim implements the bugs
but getting 90% of your sim dps is always a good rule of thumbs
gray zephyr
Thanks 🙏
near rivet
we still have 5% variance on everything?
wise escarp
!supercharger
near rivet
bots doesnt reply to edited commands
wise escarp
ah
!supercharger
hehe
Is there any way to track supercharged combo points on weakauras since it doesn't show up as a buff?
trail birch
!subterfuge
wise escarp
I suppose it doesn't change our decision making so no point tracking it?
near rivet
!subterfuge
is useless on sub, dont play it (in PvE)
trail birch
is useless on sub, dont play it (in PvE)
oh sry im in wrong section xDD
gray zephyr
I suppose it doesn't change our decision making so no point tracking it?
Doesn't it just go with next 2 finishers?
trail birch
i was looking for assa
molten citrus
Is there any way to track supercharged combo points on weakauras since it doesn'...
There’s been a couple WAs made that track it, no idea if y’all change anything while using it though
sacred yarrow
if I condition my skill WAs to show not ready if less than 20 secs CD on 
will i lose value on some fights?
like ansurek side adds or council
sly shore
but getting 90% of your sim dps is always a good rule of thumbs
What about 110%
Cos I do 110% less than my sim dps
vale pine
so you doing negative dps?
gray zephyr
Maybe he is playing a healer
vale pine
healing the boss
gray zephyr
Impostor!
sly shore
so you doing negative dps?
exactly
near rivet
i wonder how a raidboss with mindgames mechanic would turn out
keen dome
Can't believe you unlocked the secret Rogue support spec, KPB. And that it supports the boss, not the players.
near rivet
20 seconds mindgames phase, dps can target alles, healers can target enemies
gritty knot
@alpine wraith thx again for the tip with mandate trinket on first boss in a Mist +12. I finished with around 3 Million DPS, mandate crit was around 40 Million and everyone was like what the fk just happened Here 😂 i guess the next step to make ppl actually loose their shit would be playing enhancer and fkn blast that boss to dust
keen dome
lmao, that rules
coarse nexus
is last boss nw still bugged with tricks?
gritty knot
Sadly we didn't time it because the hunter took 4 times in a row the wrong door in the maze, then Said " I am so sorry Guys" and Just left the group. I guess He was srsly ashamed because until that Point He played completely normal 😂
@coarse nexus I did it yday as sub and it wasn't bugged. So I guess they fixed that
coarse nexus
bless
wise escarp
Doesn't it just go with next 2 finishers?
yeah that''s what I am thinking so finish as normal and they do damage
wise escarp
There’s been a couple WAs made that track it, no idea if y’all change anything w...
alright will check if i can edit them into mine
lilac stag
Cos I do 110% less than my sim dps
Stop standing in bad.
sly shore
I'm trying I'm trying
sacred yarrow
we cast symbols always on CD, even if no dance?
short radish
@tribal blade TFD also feels hella good in court of threads
also i'm ethically padding on orbs
also does anyone have a WA for TFD?
sly shore
in my pack smile
short radish
!wa
vale pine
CUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM2mBAAAAAgZZMWmGzYmxwYMDzMzMjxsNMzYbbmZMzMjBjlZbAAAAYGMAGzmhBGYW0CtYDG```
woops,
i like this
as a tfd talent setup
lilac stag
also does anyone have a WA for TFD?
I posted a border adjustment you can make a few days ago to your existing WA
The blue dance border is TFD
vale pine
could potentially remove vanish
and i think the new flag icon with red backdrop looks nicer
lilac stag
Use it in your WA then. New icon shit. 
vale pine
haha
short radish
i've just added it to the utility bar for luxthos
i think i want to track it separately
thanks @sly shore
lilac stag
I still use vanish enough defensively that I’m good with leaving it.
short radish
thoughts on taking this with feint talent as well
vale pine
thoughts on taking this with feint talent as well
only good if you can trigger it a lot
vale pine
it would have had some use
if we had the old affixes
you could just dip into the puddles
to trigger it
sly shore
It's annoying how tfd doesn't activate as soon as you leave combat
takes a good 1-2s
cringe
you definitely lose activations because of that
short radish
yeah ikr
remote shuttle
It's annoying how tfd doesn't activate as soon as you leave combat
Ye, is intended like this? Or bug to report?
slate nest
After a pack dies you are in combat for a little while, that's what's making it take 1-2 seconds
remote shuttle
Can use vanish and walk away at very ending of a pack... But it sounds so meh... Back no vanish as def... Don't like it
sly shore
as soon as you can stealth, combat is over
coarse nexus
is the first evis in opener is just to get slice rolling? so in a key I would just do this on the first pull and just send ruptures on the others or is there another use for it that I'm missing?
honest dome
https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/issues/1167
you're mentioning: "Using /stopattack after one or two auto attacks when reaching 6 stacks can be used to have higher control." does this still work or is this a legit workaround? Or do we just deal with it? cos it feels so bad when its happening and its happening multiple time during a raid evening..
vale pine
you're mentioning: "Using /stopattack after one or two auto attacks when reachin...
it is just a easy way to re-product
honest dome
and smh i feel like its happening more often after the recent patch than before but maybe its just me noticing it more, idk
honest dome
maybe not the best time to pay attention to it during queen prog.
Is there an estimate dps loss for just ignoring it?
vale pine
it is very specific, so its not a super common problem
sinful sluice
is there anything good for sub in blackrock depths
lilac stag
Heroic gear
near rivet
which team color is better for silken court for sub?