Im also glad realz was here yesterday - so that additionally shows we are not forgotten
#subtlety
haughty mural
strange chasm
Sin is so good in aoe but in ST in keys it feels so bad
haughty mural
Pure vibes right now
steel horizon
Im also glad realz was here yesterday - so that additionally shows we are not fo...
context?
uncut bloom
This is the only thing that bugs me as well, it’s minor but yeah would be nice to have a bit more energy or cp generation outside dance or symbols. Otherwise love the burst.
steel spindle
How should we use Symbols and Dance now?
I can do M+ fine but I'm definetely missing something about the rotation. I notice in raid for sure.
tribal blade
Im also glad realz was here yesterday - so that additionally shows we are not fo...
oh was he? what did he say
oh shit bugs might be fixed soon?
hell yeah
hazy breach
I think he was referring to supercharger specifically, but i could be incorrect
Could be more stuff, well see
Hopefully RS
tribal blade
the RS one would be big
ebon tiger
trickster feeling pretty fun with the right pull sizes in m+. frost dk still put me in the dirt though 
tribal blade
yeah you're not gonna be keeping up with other specs that aren't capped like trickster is
lilac stag
mists
narrow dirge
Feels bad losing transmitter roll 4 times
ebon tiger
a guardian angel traded me an lfr transmitter this week. shout out to that guy 
tribal blade
oh my god
new sub is so much better on queen
heroic
it doesn't feel aids to play anymore
having symbols charges and actually being able to sit on stuff
tribal blade
you should have a 1 hour buff
wanton bronze
gonna try relogging
tribal blade
tribal blade
oh you need to actually hit something
with tricks active on whoever you're tricksing
then you get the 1 hour buff
if you press tricks and don't hit anything you just have the 30 second buff till it falls off
wanton bronze
pliant topaz
okay next week after their nerf we surely beat them
sinful sluice
is it fine to use tricks of trade in ovinax raid?
also is slow poison better then atk reduce one here
strange chasm
okay next week after their nerf we surely beat them
We beat them playing ass 😛
pliant topaz
okay imma be honest youre not beating an enhancement playing sin either
this isnt beatable damage
uncut bloom
okay next week after their nerf we surely beat them
2mil for sub is so good, love to see it.
pliant topaz
coulda done more but key was too low
on the 14 I woulda finished 2.2M
but we bricked to last boss
south seal
this isnt beatable damage
its beatable, just tricks the shaman and make him pull and die and bam ur ahead of him
wind canopy
okay next week after their nerf we surely beat them
SURELY
pliant topaz
its beatable, just tricks the shaman and make him pull and die and bam ur ahead ...
no need. they alreay pull agro on pull every time.
wind canopy
So clearly what you’re saying the nerf is truly for enhance shamans’ safety 
pliant topaz
nah wont matter they dont pull agro cuz theyre doing too much damage
they can put 1 dot on 1 mob and all the mobs jsut jump them
warm aspen
nah wont matter they dont pull agro cuz theyre doing too much damage
actually tho
i've noticed that whenever i press dance the mobs all just ignore me
pliant topaz
yeah dance removes ur threat
tribal blade
you basically take almost 0 threat during dance
a lvl 60 could hold aggro over you during dance
warm ore
If symbols is on cd do i hold dance and sectech or just send? Playing trickster
sinful sluice
i think you always have symbols by dance no?
pliant topaz
depends on how many stacks of symbols u play with. but generally you symbols/dance when sectech cd < 8 sconds when you have multiple stacks of sod
and no sod/dnace if flag cd < 30
if u play with 1 symbol, then u hold dance/flag for symbols
warm ore
Aight, im playing with multiple stacks but maybe i just fucked up and fat fingered my keybinds so ran out of symbols
pliant topaz
u will run out eventually, and thats where symbols management/ planning becomes important
zenith oriole
Note: The first Dance is good for Mythic+, the 6 seconds out of combat requirement is not a problem. which talent do I take out to skill the first dance?
pliant topaz
WM
zenith oriole
wm?
south seal
i think you always have symbols by dance no?
should
zenith oriole
Best enchants for M+ on weapons?
sick jackal
depths
zenith oriole
on both weapons? Or mastery on offhand?
sick jackal
boths from wowhead
warm aspen
man have we looked into harvester's edict since like early season?
was messing around with a heroic version i got just now
and i can actually see the ball now, as opposed to b4
it does do dmg
tribal blade
Best enchants for M+ on weapons?
i would use radiant power, it's better for aoe
zenith oriole
Yes i just simmed it, Authority of Depths + Radiant Power is best for dungeon slice for me
steel heart
Hey all, I am trying to create a macro but I fail miserably. Could any of you help? I want to create a macro that when stealthed casts sap on my mouseover target, when not stealthed does the same for blind (same button)
wind canopy
It's just /cast [stance:1, @mouseover] Sap; [@mouseover] Blind
steel heart
I got confused with the nostealth, stealth conditions, thanks 🙂
noble patio
Okay... this is an interesting bug. If you use Coup de Grace but don't have SnD active, the proc gets used, you get the extra stacks of Flawless Form, but it doesn't deal any damage.
I'll have to verify though
steel heart
It's just `/cast [stance:1, @mouseover] Sap; [@mouseover] Blind`
Blind doesnt work while sap does...
plush roost
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
warm aspen
anyone even playing Deathstalker in M+'
don't think so lol
trickster feels hella nice
legit just shadow outlaw, ez to make the switch
zenith oriole
I think DS needs also 3 charges of symbols to be fun
warm aspen
i think DS reminds me of vanilla wow
when i tried it for like 15 mins way back when
wayyyyy too limited for how much more dynamic and challenging the game's gotten
remote shard
man, I find sud really hard to learn
wet echo
you basically take almost 0 threat during dance
bit of a late reply but you don't generate less aggro during dance, it's just that all the mobs consider you stealthed and won't go on you unless you're the only one with aggro, a level 1 can hold aggro over you while in dance but as soon as dance ends, even if you don't press anymore buttons, you'll have all the aggro generated during stealth
sly shore
I had tfd activate during combat after vanishing yesterday
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/FvbA7wRncd9WHkNP It's somewhere in this log is someone can find it
keen dome
Do you remember what dungeon it was, at least?
keen dome
Huh, that's really curious..
sly shore
@vale pine lil bug for you to enjoy :3
wet echo
let's find a way to replicate it consistently 🙂
vale pine
<@194804407706189824> lil bug for you to enjoy :3
haha
glad vale
Guys, is it a good idea to macro Shadow Blades and Flagellation together? Since they're always used together, is there a downside to that approach?
heady gulch
well flag has longer duration so I use it before blades to get some stacks
glad vale
Ah, that is a good point!
gritty knot
Ye since Flag uses a GCD too u and has longer duration u want to get the most out of it. So ideally in ST u want to start with vanish, shadowstrike for full cp then flag and immediately evis, then vanish so U can shadowstrike again for full cp, then rupture and THEN press all CDs like potions, SoD, Shadowblades etc.
Not start with "vanish" i meant to write "stealth" instead of vanish
glad vale
is probably the clostest to optimal you can do
Perfect, thank You for advice
gritty knot
U want to get the most of this 12 Seconds flag window with these lashes and also stack up the mastery buff from it for the actual burst window shortly after. But correct me If wrong idk
What I ask myself sometimes tho is, when is the best time to press Transmitter? Sometimes the jumping completely fks me over idk 😂
1 Sec brain afk in a key and ur fucked, for example pressing IT to early and u get the shit to stand in, Not the orbs and meanwhile the Tank travelled to Goldshire with the pack
glad vale
you can macro blades to secret
If I may have one more question, after reading Your WoWhead guide - Would you recommend using Symbols of Death only in conjunction with Shadow Dance, or in other situations as well?
old socket
i think you get 1 naked symbols
vale pine
If I may have one more question, after reading Your WoWhead guide - Would you re...
you basically do the following
you use 2x symbols during blades/flag
then symbols with secret techniques
dance is optional
if you get closer to flag/blades you will try to get 2 charges of dance/symbols for it (dance cdr's so you don't need 2 charges but you want at least one)
sage moth
How do we sync Dance with SecTec ?
glad vale
So, the Symbols should always be up for Flagellation + Shadow Blades, and for Secret Technique. For Flagellation and Shadow Blades, it would be ideal to have 2x Symbols to cover the entire window
vale pine
How do we sync Dance with SecTec ?
you sync dance to symbols
so no need to worry much
you never send a blank dance
clever delta
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
sage moth
Yes but for instance as opener i chain 2 dance so my 2nd dance as no sectec and then like 2 or 3 dance later i got my sectec up when my dance is not
I know i do somethi,g stupid but i can't figure what x)
vale pine
Yes but for instance as opener i chain 2 dance so my 2nd dance as no sectec and ...
you use secret first finisher in first dance
so it should be up for second again
sage moth
It is x) Thank you
frail trout
so is it bad to just macro symblos into dance? and is sec tech always my first finisher now in dance? 🤔
tribal blade
@vale pine how often are we using sending symbols+sectec w/o dance
woven yoke
https://i.gyazo.com/da7ac214cbcf404bd74120920c0540a7.png time to roll sub ?
for lowest apm now ?
trim ridge
Whats apm
woven yoke
action per minute
topaz raptor
bm only uses autoshot
vestal path
topaz raptor
and mandate is 96% of your damage
because the apl is broken
mandate only makes up 71% of sub's damage
keen dome
Huh. Sub is def not 21 APM..
cursive vapor
!wa
topaz raptor
hit up stonevault you guys
tribal blade
looks like i'm averaging around 54 apm
in last heroic raid i ran
which is pretty much dead middle of the pack
keen dome
Ye, 50 - 60 seems about right.
tribal blade
our apm is only not higher because of our downtime
keen dome
Sub's APM being concentrated in a very small window is fun
warm aspen
ngl rogue in general is just
peak design now
i just tried to level my dh and my god half of their spells just have 0 synergy
literally "press this on cd for moar dmg!"
tribal blade
hm so from testing i've been playing around with trying to push the limit of dance+symbol usage before next cd set is ready
esp in aoe since cp generation is so high
and consensus is playing it safe and full stopping ~30 secs before next cd set is always the play
ornate current
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
shell lance
Dark iron dwarf sub is good in raid too?
tribal blade
Dark iron dwarf sub is good in raid too?
the race you play doesn't have a massive impact on dps
shell lance
the race you play doesn't have a massive impact on dps
So mechagnome and dwarf for min-max right?
topaz raptor
i think mechagnome is supposed to be good for dps yeah
dwarf better defensively for keys
tribal blade
So mechagnome and dwarf for min-max right?
i honestly have no idea, but that sounds about right
topaz raptor
orc should be up there too
tribal blade
dwarf is REALLY good because of stoneform
topaz raptor
yeah i think dwarf is bis if you run high keys
tribal blade
people mostly choose races based on the utility/defensives they bring
less so on dps
stoneform is so crazy good it doesn't matter about how much dps dwarf brings
tribal blade
that too! very true
but dwarf could be the worst dps option and key runners would still run it
shell lance
Yeah but in the tabel for m+ say Dark Iron but gnome?
warm aspen
dragon is so sick for m+ tho
knockback + blind
unbind kick and blast xD
esp with casters that dont wanna move
insec them to the pack
balmy notch
you could already do that with kul tiran punch, all 7 kul tiran rogues in the world did that
balmy notch
😦
warm aspen
u always see all these ppl on forum asking for playable ogre race and im just like
tribal blade
stoneform still the best
warm aspen
but kul tirans already exist?
balmy notch
stop being a meanie to kultirans they just chonky
tribal blade
it's really difficult to fully appreciate how insane stoneform is until you start doing higher keys
like last boss siege is WAY easier
frosty bridge
it removes debuff?
balmy notch
you get to divebomb in the melees and stoneform 👍
warm aspen
you get to divebomb in the melees and stoneform 👍
u sir are evil
and here i am perma jumping in the water just to give everyone else more space to do less st dps than me
btw , wtf are these emotes
why is there also a raccoon lol
why is this in the rogue server..
trim ridge
raccons are rogue are essentially the same
tribal blade
it's everything
warm aspen
wait so it's lke
tribal blade
dunno how it hasn't gotten nerfed yet tbh
warm aspen
a second cloak
tribal blade
yes
it's insane
like actually insane
during S3 DF every single person who could go dwarf went dwarf
because if you didn't your life would be miserable
warm aspen
almost as insane as a random raccoon emote in a server where u casually just chat with the current rank 1 OL rogue...
oh, there are actually 2...
tribal blade
on top of all that it's a 10% physical DR
that you can use if there's no debuffs that you know are gonna go out
warm aspen
ehhhhhhhhhh does 10% help that much?
was dicking around in 11 sob, and third boss aoe was like 2/3 my hp thru feint
10% of a shit like that is still just
deadge
no
tribal blade
sub doesn't really struggle against aoe dam in general
warm aspen
ik those exist, but im saying 10% isn't rly gonna save us lol
like just stack feint + dance
topaz raptor
10% is a lot better than nothing
tribal blade
again it's not the dr, it's the dispel
like the 2 dots that go out on the last boss of siege
warm aspen
yup
warm aspen
does it remove SV last boss
tribal blade
actually not sure about that one, haven't tested it yet
but you can remove the curses the trash puts out
in SV
warm aspen
being able to just stoneform the dot and sit on boss sounds like a dream lol
topaz raptor
doubt it but that fight is so free it doesn't matter
tribal blade
you can pretty much use stoneform in every single dungeon
there's always something you can dispel off yourself
tribal blade
yeah that's the worst part
warm aspen
can't imagine turning this into a dwarf LOL
tribal blade
i hate how dwarves look, but it's too good to pass up
nimble burrow
Is it common to send secret before coup in dance? Or should never do it?
warm aspen
just stay a pretty race and then scream at ur healer for dispels in comms xD
warm aspen
Is it common to send secret before coup in dance? Or should never do it?
uh wouldn't that depend on fazed
just looking at the descriptions, if the target's already fazed, u prolly lead with coup right
and sectech if it isn't
since the logic is coup on fazed = more dmg for sectech but sectech = guaranteed fazed
shell lance
Or earthen for the high armour race passive
warm aspen
unless getting sectech out 1st is super important for cdr?
nimble burrow
ty
vale pine
<@194804407706189824> how often are we using sending symbols+sectec w/o dance
rarely, most of the cases are closer to flags
tribal blade
rarely, most of the cases are closer to flags
i got to see it a bit from hitting the dummies, yeah it's quite rare
seems like it would happen more if you lose a lot of uptime on bosses
and your cdr becomes a bit scuffed
vale pine
yes
subtlety still has not the best recovery
but downtime also means you get more symbols charges back
tribal blade
man symbols on a charge system is pure heaven
it's so good
before this patch i was preferring to play sin in ST over sub because of how miserable everything was
and now i think i prefer sub, this is so much fun
warm aspen
sin is so strange
vale pine
it has a lot of small cuts still, but the high-ish tuning means we can forgive most of them
warm aspen
and envenom is like 90% of ur dmg
vale pine
supercharger is just soo good
vagrant fulcrum
So uh
tribal blade
actually must be good for OL too
warm aspen
i wanted to respond with the pantsgrab emoji lol
but this server has like 5 different raccoon emojis and no pantsgrab...
no entiendo
noble patio
Like what is the action?
probably similar to what they use to heal off of SnD, judging by the icons..
warm aspen
prolly just steroids we stole from the kyrians
anima or whatever
we literally pickpocket so
noble patio
Yeah, probably some anima boosters we kept from SL
warm aspen
i think of it like a batman thing
vagrant fulcrum
“Invoke ancient symbols of power”
Or the other shadow death ninja stuff
Has a theme or some kind of explanation
Meanwhile supercharge out here breaking the fourth wall
warm aspen
like how some iterations of batman will literally just pull a syringe out of his plot armor belt and inject himself with either Venom or just actual adrenaline
maybe we do that too
just stick a needle into our own ass for a power boost
vagrant fulcrum
We out here doping
vale pine
Like what is the action?
it just makes you do more damage
warm aspen
We out here doping
c'mon, we've done worse
keen dome
Your symbols of ancient power are more potent.
sacred yarrow
the power of friendship
warm aspen
actually tho, it kinda looks like some kindda anima battery
maybe we legit just zap ourselves
lol
that ALSO wouldn't be the worst thing rogues in canon do.
sacred yarrow
so basically we're jason statham in cranked
trim ridge
what about sec tech, u just pop out some shadow clones out of ur ass
u could say shadow dance is a kind of stance but symbols and sec are weird as fuck lmao
roleplay wise i mean
merry agate
I wish they would focus more on clones 😦 they only ever get used for tier Boni
Think thats a cool class fantasy 
Gimme more of em!
warm aspen
i always thought that sin and law are like, traditional scoundrels
and sub is actual magic users
sacred yarrow
so, spell thieves?
trim ridge
kinda
warm aspen
bummer to lose nightblade tho
trim ridge
but void spell thieves
i mean shadowblades
also a shadow damage spell, our eviscerates now also deal shadow damage
pretty weird thematically if we are just an average guy with 2 knives
but cool
warm aspen
gosh i hope we aren't just average guy with 2 knives
trim ridge
i mean
the name of the spec doesnt share the fantasy of the class imo
i love sub tho
ornate current
bummer to lose nightblade tho
???? Thats an innteresting take
The spell that chained sub down so much when it came to swapping targets in a time where we didnt have an actual aoe finisher
Nah it can stay dead forever
vale pine
icons and spell names are easy changed ^^
i wouldn't mind to have that happen
would eliminate the
whining that rupture does more damage on sub
fallow nimbus
Like at level x it becomes nightblade but is just rupture in purple
Isn't there some rank 2 rupture stuff somewhere while leveling?
vale pine
Like at level x it becomes nightblade but is just rupture in purple
no like
just change the name and icon
spark tusk
I’d be down
fallow nimbus
That's what i mean but from blizz side not just macro
vale pine
yes
fallow nimbus
But they probably would still complain that the dot does more dmg 
vagrant fulcrum
it just makes you do more damage
yeah, that's the result - I'm asking about the physical process
like black powder is throwing explosive powder, backstab is ... stabbing them in the back
muted agate
black sand
spark tusk
yeah, that's the result - I'm asking about the physical process
Or symbols. What’d you do wave your hands in the air in the shape of some character oooooooo so scary
vagrant fulcrum
Or symbols. What’d you do wave your hands in the air in the shape of some charac...
tooltip says we invoke ancient symbols of power
falls more into the edgy shadow ninja stuff that came in legion with nightblade etc
spark tusk
If we’re talking theme and lore, then I agree supercharger is very much gameplay first, without consideration for lore
vivid cobalt
Speaking of supercharger, is it working correctly right now when it consumes a charged combo point regardless of how many points you have?
Is it supposed to be easier to use than echoing reprimand in that regard or is shit just bugged
placid elk
its poorly worded. should be your next finisher after using symbols/shiv/rtb deals dmg as if 2 extra cp were used
vale pine
it is also skill expression to not charge accidentally
i am not saying its a good one tho
fringe palm
my skill is really expressed when i make the auto before evis proc coup
tribal blade
just change the name and icon
i agree, nightblade looks and sounds cooler than rupture
and gives flavor for free
with just a name and icon change
there's no reason for sin and sub to share rupture between the 2
tribal blade
am i blind, i don't see a difference
vale pine
I only made a clean icon version, but if anyone wants.
How to use:
- Extract
- Copy
INV_Ability_Rogue_Flagellation.tgatoWorld of Warcraft\_retail_\Interface\ICONS - The icons used are modified versions from Clean icons
vale pine
yes
keen dome
Purple, def.
tribal blade
i think red looks better, but purple is thematically better
maybe i'm just too used to flag being red
vale pine
red has a nicer contrast, but purple looks more subtlety like
tribal blade
yeah purple better flavor
south seal
Purple does taste better
zenith oriole
How much Mastery should you have?
tribal blade
vers buffs all damage, mastery is only finishers
and we have a bit more damage with builders currently
than we usually do
tribal blade
How much Mastery should you have?
just sim it, robot knows best
tribal blade
Seeing SnD take up visual real estate kills me. <:ALOO:1099033558691106856>
i was debating taking it off my WAs
lilac stag
Just have it hidden unless in combat without it.
vale pine
Fix the gaps first. A few are 2 pixels and others 1
the gaps are calculated
so should be even
tribal blade
Just have it hidden unless in combat without it.
ooo that's a decent idea
lilac stag
It’s always up
keen dome
Just have it hidden unless in combat without it.
Oh that's a good idea
lilac stag
and if it’s not, unhide it center of screen.
keen dome
Haha
keen dome
I wonder if the next step will just make us have it, always, passively.
Or if this is where it lives for the next five yearw.
lilac stag
likely stay like this
nimble burrow
i have a little stupid question, for sub we always need to keep we got 2 dance+ symbol when we enter the beautiful big burst, so we need to calculate when to hold dance+ symbol?
lilac stag
Something to track not give a shit about
keen dome
Ye, it feels like the logical spot for it.
vale pine
I wonder if the next step will just make us have it, always, passively.
i would like to have it applied with strike
keen dome
Yeah, honestly.
vale pine
but i think its like such a small improvement that its not worth their time
keen dome
Harder to apply to all three specs, I guess.
vale pine
my opinion is, they are happy with it as is
they could just link it to ambush
so it would work on all 3
keen dome
KiR doesn't use Ambush, right?
vale pine
they can
keen dome
Nod
vale pine
ambush basically translates into strike
keen dome
But yeah, Ambush / SS makes the most sense since it's how we, ideally, start fights.
keen dome
Ye, I remember you mentioning it during DF
vale pine
its one of all the "fun" party tricks we have
keen dome
I'm pretty happy with this though. CttC being uniform on all three specs, giving us S&D off our main spender. Groovy.
vale pine
basically just reverted snd
so re-invented the wheel
because snd was removed in legion
then came back
keen dome
With a vengeance
vale pine
to now be almost back to be removed
keen dome
Probably the happiest middleground.
vale pine
its the same but diffrent, because you need to actively use evis
which we might not do
if the hero talents change, get removed or we get more hero talents
(in aoe)
keen dome
True, true. But, hopefully, they consider that in the future.
I think it's interesting to see them trying to design stuff for all 3 specs, to benefit all 3 specs, in different ways
CttC change, Supercharger, etc.
vale pine
supercharger is kinda a nerf to outlaw
the cp income of ER was higher with 1 less talent point requirement
now you need to spend 1 more point for about equal combo points
its important because the main benefit for outlaw from the talent is from the cdr part
keen dome
Nod True
vivid cobalt
doesn't rly matter all the outlaws are banned anyway
zenith oriole
bettter nerf Rogues more
shell lance
This is similar of stone form right?
hazy breach
Yesnt. It dispels the same things yes
But its also a big dps cd
So you want to use it with your cds
round latch
doesnt last that much though,its 8 sec
hazy breach
Sims roughly the same as orc or mechagnome
balmy notch
This is similar of stone form right?
did you take a picture of your screen with your phone
nimble burrow
bettter nerf Rogues more
shouldnt be that dmg
brother
should be 1.3m AVG for sub rn
shell lance
did you take a picture of your screen with your phone
yes
vestal escarp
Theres no metrics guys for overall dps unless you're playing boring flat specs
oak hearth
overall kinda depnds on how the tank pulls in M+
unless ur like
outlaw
and target capped
oak hearth
Theres no metrics guys for overall dps unless you're playing boring flat specs
dont talk about outlaw like that man
hazy breach
Unless youre like sub and target capped 
vestal escarp
Outlul is many things but not boring
hazy breach
But tbf the hardcap doesnt really matter much compared to softcap. The difference is vastly overstated
vestal escarp
Dh is uncapped in demonsurge and ragefire
vale pine
you are ideally uncapped
but just keep in mind, outlaw was the go-to spec in s3/4
besides having a cap
tuning and dungeon design are more important than caps
balmy notch
!wa
shell lance
For exp to 80 trickster is good?
vale pine
yes
pliant topaz
Unless youre like sub and target capped <:kek:365510869557444628>
Jokes on you buddy. I’m BPing.. what cap kekw.
pliant topaz
But last night we pulled 3 packs after 2nd boss COT and I bpd and man, I did insane damage ngl
alpine wraith
big dmg
vale pine
And at 80 deathstalker right?
trickster overall best
but both have their benefits
deathstalker is rly good in sustained aoe
trickster has rly good burst and cleave
alpine wraith
you mean league yues
pliant topaz
Yeah!
hazy breach
Okay unrelated but anyone watching T1 FIGHTING?
Imagine if we had T1 vs Fly instead
golden totem
Okay unrelated but anyone watching T1 FIGHTING?
I do, even tho I haven't watch any league since last year worlds
hazy breach
That wouldve been way better lorewise
pliant topaz
Bro canyon nidallee gottttta be illegal
alpine wraith
ehehe
pliant arrow
would yall say going sub on ovinax is grief? Is it that much worse than assa?
nimble burrow
ovinax is fine for me tho...but i would choose trickster for it
vale pine
would yall say going sub on ovinax is grief? Is it that much worse than assa?
its not but its annoying to play
it is one of the few fights i wish i had acro
nimble burrow
i feel like siege is very uncomfort for sub? idk whether its the team issue but i always cant line up my flag-blade
alpine wraith
on ovi nax remember to be on the face on the boss
alpine wraith
for your cleave to hit things
gilded ferry
is WCL doing something against the bug abusers?
vale pine
they remove bug logs usually
gilded ferry
is it trackeable through logs? I believe it is, but, I could not understand how to spot it
vale pine
don't think its easy to detect
gilded ferry
for sub i think its kinda easy, like, using DS in ulgrax and being top damage is pretty sus already
vale pine
it is more that there is no buff you can track that indicates the bug
leaden prairie
I gave them a way to accurately detect the bug for outlaw but they haven't removed the logs yet
timid warren
is sub the best leveling spec?
alpine wraith
sub ones are still up too
harsh socket
!guide
grave abyss
is sub the best leveling spec?
it's fine, good opener burst, but play whatever you like for leveling
I saw casualaddict do some sub keys recently, could probably check vods
alpine wraith
i do videos but i care little about high keys
umbral bone
is tuesday another tier peice catalyst?
left ledge
I think it’s about time we discuss the next sub rogue rework, one we’re in desperate need of clearly, and I know exactly where to find inspiration: Tien Shinhan.
What if they reworked Eviscerate into DODON RAY, and every time we use our new main finisher DODON RAY, we get a nice little DODON RAY scream from our character. Ofc DODON RAY would also be a beam attack meaning as sub rogues we now gain some much needed range. “But but won’t that go against our shadow theme” shut up, just make it purple.
As for secret technique, I’m sick of this ability getting no real love, it’s time to replace it with Tien’s infamous Tri-Beam attack, they both have something to do with three so it serves as a perfect replacement for secret technique. On top of that, we get to do some cool hand sign shit and don’t say it doesn’t fit thematically again just make it purple and it fits.
Finally, after all our DODON RAY spam and our occasional Tri-Beam attacks, I think we should by default have a third eye that activates upon using “shadow blades”. This third eye will serve to make Tri-Beam attack spammable, however you pass out for an undisclosed period of time after spamming enough Tri-Beams.
I personally think this is what sub rogue really needs right now and hope the community can come together to agree with a damn good opinion in this channel.
grave abyss
extremely subtle
gilded ferry
!sod
wicked joltBOT
Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs
vestal escarp
The strongest human
pliant topaz
On this day! KERIA ended world hunger. Cuz that motherfucker coooked
gilded ferry
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
surreal siren
!up
wicked joltBOT
mental comet
I think it’s about time we discuss the next sub rogue rework, one we’re in desperate need of clearly, and I know exactly where to find inspiration: Tien Shinhan.
What if they reworked Eviscerate into DODON RAY, and every time we use our new main finisher DODON RAY, we get a nice little DODON RAY scream from our character. Ofc DODON RAY would also be a beam attack meaning as sub rogues we now gain some much needed range. “But but won’t that go against our shadow theme” shut up, just make it purple.
As for secret technique, I’m sick of this ability getting no real love, it’s time to replace it with Tien’s infamous Tri-Beam attack, they both have something to do with three so it serves as a perfect replacement for secret technique. On top of that, we get to do some cool hand sign shit and don’t say it doesn’t fit thematically again just make it purple and it fits.
Finally, after all our DODON RAY spam and our occasional Tri-Beam attacks, I think we should by default have a third eye that activates upon using “shadow blades”. This third eye will serve to make Tri-Beam attack spammable, however you pass out for an undisclosed period of time after spamming enough Tri-Beams.
I personally think this is what sub rogue really needs right now and hope the community can come together to agree with a damn good opinion in this channel.
vale pine
nice, but we usually don't do copy/pastas in the spec channels
mental comet
acceptable, as a rebuttal; with that fun killing attitude you should apply to work for blizzard 
paper wolf
I gave them a way to accurately detect the bug for outlaw but they haven't remov...
what way did you suggest?
steel spindle
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns.
The following macros are an exception:yaml /cast Cold Blood /cast Secret Technique
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.What is the macro for not being able to spam SoD
vale pine
!sod
wicked joltBOT
Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs
leaden prairie
what way did you suggest?
bugged logs can do higher than 10cp finishers so they can refound 3 cps
which isnt possible otherwise
paper wolf
bugged logs can do higher than 10cp finishers so they can refound 3 cps
ahh true
leaden prairie
only way i found to accurately detect without false positives
cause like
you can check buff uptimes and shit
solemn lance
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
leaden prairie
but you never know someone could get very lucky right
like roll a 6 buff on pull extend it the whole fight or whatever
pliant topaz
like roll a 6 buff on pull extend it the whole fight or whatever
U can also check average dispatch damage, bte casts, vanish casts, subterfuge uptime, kir casts, as you said refunds
leaden prairie
thats not really something you can accurately check tho
sure as an human
looking at a log like that
you realize its bugged
but you cant really look at average vanish uptime and determine anything
i dont htink so
not in a way that wouldnt trigger false positives imo
alpine wraith
yea but do that with 100000 logs
idk there is a sure way to do it does not mean there are not more
left ledge
Find me a legit log that has vanish and bte as the only things being pressed
alpine wraith
but it is easier to just check if it has any 13 cp finishers
ONCE
instead of checking vanish bte or dmg on evis
or some other things
left ledge
I mean that’s true but idk if they have a way to see that
alpine wraith
after culling all of those
you can go into other things
it is easy to check as zac said for ruthlessness for outlaw and for sub relentless strikes
ornate current
Find me a legit log that has vanish and bte as the only things being pressed
This 💯, there is no way that there are loga that didnt press SS ever in a fight that aren't abusing no matter how lucky you are
left ledge
Oh for sub it’s impossible
vale pine
fairly obviouse
pliant topaz
but you cant really look at average vanish uptime and determine anything
U can though. U can make a dimple distribution of logs prior to patch and say it’s normally distributed with mean let’s say every 20 seconds and standard deviation of 3. Then with 95% certainly u can say the motherfucker vanishing every 7 seconds is cheating
left ledge
But not everybody is just slamming dance
But honestly
Sub isn’t that crazy with it lmao
leaden prairie
U can though. U can make a dimple distribution of logs prior to patch and say it...
thats not what wcl will want to do tho
they want to be able to just make a quick scripts
vale pine
Sub isn’t that crazy with it lmao
is not excessive
vale pine
like 200k more vs.3x your dps
left ledge
is not excessive
Outside of ST it’s not even worth it
leaden prairie
what you are talking about is not really feasible easely
and its not accurate enough
pliant topaz
they want to be able to just make a quick scripts
I mean what I described is like a 2 min script, but I guess
There are libraries that do that for you. Built in functions and all
As long as u parse the logs for it
alpine wraith
Oh for sub it’s impossible
for sub it is even easier you just check energy gained on relentless strikes
leaden prairie
you are talking about parsing a shit ton of logs to build data for an average and shit
alpine wraith
if it is more than 50 CULLED
leaden prairie
its certainly not as easy as a simple script that just goes trough log and check certain chain of events
left ledge
for sub it is even easier you just check energy gained on relentless strikes
I mean outlaw cp caps at 2 no matter what no? From the talent
I’d assume relentless has a cap
left ledge
Is excess accounted for
alpine wraith
of course
left ledge
Because in dance you’re perma energy capped anyways
alpine wraith
you look at the event
left ledge
Yeah ig if excess is logged too
alpine wraith
how else do you think you get the excess energy breakdown
untold agate
Wait though I love your details profile plz link 😅
icy knot
Hi i have a question is it a bug that i only sometimes can use my shadowstrike afte vanish or is it only a chance that i can activate it
vale pine
you should always be able to use strike after vanish
pliant topaz
Im pretty sure theres a bug with it, ive had it too where i cant strike after vanish
^^ pretty sure theres a bug attached to it fuu.
on dummies if you try it sometimes it fully drops combat but doesnt give u stealth, and u have to resteatlh strike
icy knot
oh cuz i am in the raid right now and i wanted to do my opener but i cant
uneven scarab
if you ss like the same global as vanish it just takes you right out of stealth
pliant topaz
yeah it is new
uneven scarab
ive had it happen and ive seem some other people bring it up
pliant topaz
i noticed it on ptr, its still here
uneven scarab
Very wacky
uneven scarab
you even get the ss teleport but then nothing happens
pliant topaz
theres a similar bug with last boss COT. where if u root break her root too fast she roots you
like with vanish
spark tusk
Do we just use vanish strike on cd?
pliant topaz
in raid kinda yea
pliant topaz
yeppers
hazy breach
Theres another bug with vanish that i dont know if its new or not
But shadowcraft doesnt seem to refund cp when youve vanished
pliant topaz
oh thast interesting. Ive noticed another bug with shadowcraft too
hazy breach
Which fucks me up on queen
pliant topaz
ive noticed sometimes sod is up and shadowcraft just fully does not refund at all
i think it has to do with dance/stealth dropping
vale pine
But shadowcraft doesnt seem to refund cp when youve vanished
oh, interessting
pliant topaz
like if dance ends and u keep stacking it wont get refunded until u press sod again
hazy breach
Its probably the same/adjacent to the bug youre talking about armin
pliant topaz
welp. time to replicate them and get that bugtracker updated lol
vale pine
welp. time to replicate them and get that bugtracker updated lol
just dm me if you open a report, so i can add tags (if you can't)
pliant topaz
will do once i can reliably replicate it
granite hinge
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
young path
timed 12 siege... finally LOL
pliant topaz
gz
keen dome
Hell yeah, nice work
hazy breach
does supercharge show up anyhwere ?
Its not a buff but yes
void hound
how does transmitter work in the opener? do we still go for 2 sec tecs during the buff?
void hound
https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/316923898501529600/1299526586206...
awesome
glacial basin
how does the cloak works? some time idont take any damage and sometimes it deals the damage like rasha nan soaks or sikran shattering sweep
hazy breach
Sometimes things ignore cloak, sometimes cloak only works on the first second and a lot of the time it just works
If its magic cloak usually works is the only rule of thumb, but as you've noticed theres exceptions
Rogue defensives in general is very much "try it and see if it works or not because theres no way of knowing beforehand"
vestal dove
@vale pine i appreciate you for the pins
vale pine
thanks
stiff remnant
I hope I don't get chewed up but... is bloodmallet broken for sub? not showing Transmitter as OP
proper fulcrum
Shadowdust till we die
lilac stag
Bloodmallet hasn’t pulled apl
hazy breach
I hope I don't get chewed up but... is bloodmallet broken for sub? not showing T...
Yes, its simming without any talents
tepid trellis
@pliant topaz 
vale pine
Remove or update pls.
oh true
vale pine
Remove or update pls.
should be fine now
pliant topaz
<@639956635300790285> <:OMEGAKEKW:829051106361344021>
beautiful
vale pine
📈
cursive vapor
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
i told this small yt dude to play sub in his comments and he actually did it
nice
he should try again now, its a bit easier
he plays it now
tbh thats a lot better than pre patch
dust would have confused him mroe
sweet summit
yea the way he describes the spec is rlly funny
he talks about how hard is it consistently when hes talking abt it
it is*
vale pine
whats funny is
i just replaced my flagellation icon today
with a colored one
and i already got used to it
spark tusk
Is that possible without a custom icon?
like is the old icon still available in the game files?
vale pine
Is that possible without a custom icon?
nope
spark tusk
Damn
spark tusk
I mean I can also just adjust the color slider on the icon
vale pine
its like 10-20kb
spark tusk
in a WA
vale pine
that does color the entire spell
lilac stag
like is the old icon still available in the game files?
Yes it is
vale pine
(i could do one for the baseline icons too)
vale pine
Yes it is
^ its like this
you essentially just drop the icon in interface\ICONS
and the game graps it from there
lilac stag
@spark tusk #subtlety message
vale pine
so every time you reference it in game it uses the one you put in the file path
BUT
it isn't replacing any game files
so if you delete it from the folder
lilac stag
the original icon still available to use.
vale pine
it defaults back to the game files
lilac stag
so just depends what approach you want to take
lilac stag
Huh? You 100% can use the old icon
vale pine
the pre 11.0.5 icon is still in the game files iirc
lilac stag
I can’t quickly see if it’s on cd or not based off coloring
I know. I posted the link for the icon number.
My current setup.
pliant topaz
I know. I posted the link for the icon number.
the original flag
so much better than this aweful new flag
wispy pebble
I am getting uber cooked by our assa on sikran jesus christ
spark tusk
so much better than this aweful new flag
I'm more upset by the new ER icon, but the new ER icon is better in a sense because you don't hae to look at it
keen dome
I like how your trinkets look like they're having a chat
lilac stag
I am getting uber cooked by our assa on sikran jesus christ
Why?
pliant topaz
i dont really hate it tbh
wispy pebble
why do they look so crisp? color magic?
vale pine
i dont really hate it tbh
the icon?
pliant topaz
yea
spark tusk
i dont really hate it tbh
Personally I just like the blue of old ER, I got the shadowlands glyph back before it was gone for the animation
vale pine
i think its very close to the old one
lilac stag
idk he deals loads more dmg
Can post logs using !logs
pliant topaz
Personally I just like the blue of old ER, I got the shadowlands glyph back befo...
the new one doesnt have an animaiton?
spark tusk
It's not an active button
wispy pebble
Can post logs using !logs
yea i will do after raid
spark tusk
wdym
pliant topaz
should sitll have an animation when it procs i think
lilac stag
why do they look so crisp? color magic?
What the what?
pliant topaz
ill check
pliant topaz
It won't feel the same
i dont even think it has an animation lmfao
wispy pebble
<https://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info25064-CleanIcons-MechagnomeEdition.h...
Oh dayum thanks
wispy pebble
Sectec burst matches up with sikrasn dash away way to good... guess i have to delay until he returns?
gray yew
Hey guys! Is it possible to make a macro where it wouldn't cast Symbols of Death in case I already have it buffed?
vale pine
https://youtu.be/r1SqKv5ugPY
finished watching, his pro/con list was diffrent to what i would assumed
sweet summit
its a bit weird
i like that he nailed down the part about hes either doing a ton of dmg or none simply by wasting cds
wet echo
Hey guys! Is it possible to make a macro where it wouldn't cast Symbols of Death...
no but you can put a "cd" on your sod uses
sweet summit
but some other parts he just has different issues from what i had i think
sullen hare
!sod works to help keep you from instantly recasting but you're still gonna have to manually keep an eye on it
wicked joltBOT
Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs
wet echo
^ @gray yew you can change the "reset=2" to any other number, even 10 if you really don't wanna overlap them
but that would be suboptimal 😄
gray yew
what does "cqs" stand for?
sullen hare
Not super familiar with cast sequence macros personally but I assume it's treated like a }
gray yew
If I wanna put Flagellation into it, should it put it after the "cqs"?:D
sullen hare
I would recommend against doing that
lilac stag
what does "cqs" stand for?
Clear Que Spell.
placid elk
they forgot to give symbols a gcd only for it like feint has 
i got stunned irl yesterday when popped 3 symbols at once for the first time
but i had so many superchargers
wispy bolt
when playing DS ST, do we still send secTech 2nd finishedr in dance or first now
wowhead says
During Shadow Dance:
Use Finishing Moves when on 6 or more Combo Points with the following priority:
Use Secret Technique.
Use Eviscerate.
wispy pebble
always first now afaik
wispy bolt
cool cool. also how we we tell what top logs for mythic raid are just from people bug abusing? trying to use lorrgs but i dont want get bamboozled
vale pine
when playing DS ST, do we still send secTech 2nd finishedr in dance or first now
yes
but 2nd dance secret
is delayed
mint timber
What is the absolutely most bursty rotation possible at this moment? + points for spec link 😄
vale pine
its not at the start of dance
vale pine
What is the absolutely most bursty rotation possible at this moment? + points fo...
you can probably use all 3 symbols charges and have super high burst
BUT
vale pine
also would totally fuck your long term dps
sweet summit
how r u guys managing symbols rn
mint swift
I just looked at rota
cause we are doing mythic prog and idk if sub is better than assa for bloo
dseing shadowblades after ST hurt my brain
vale pine
you just blades with flag
so flag-finish-cooldowns
its very similar to before
the skill expression outside of this
is to use symbols/dance/secret charges well
sweet summit
i send 2 with flag but i could be sending the 3rd one too early
vale pine
2x symbols 2x dance with flag/blades
smoky aspen
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
wispy pebble
do we pool dances before flag and sb come up? i sometimes dont have SD when Flag comes up
vale pine
yes
vale pine
you want to not use cooldowns too close to flag
mint swift
just build cp, evic, use symbols and dance toghether
wispy pebble
basically like old trickster
wispy pebble
guess i will have to check my cooldowns then on 1 dance pre flag
and if im at 1 i just use SoD Sectec
mint swift
I just remember startying to dislike sub in keys mainly
then played assa instead
and then enjoyed assa in raid too so i just full swapped
vale pine
subtlety is quite fun this patch
it still is difficult to optimize
and has a lot of small things that could be better
but hey, we take it
topaz raptor
about to troll a key with sub, is it very similar to 11.0 playstyle?
vale pine
about to troll a key with sub, is it very similar to 11.0 playstyle?
similar yes
a bit more dynamic
secret first finisher in dance always
topaz raptor
very interesting
vale pine
and you align symbols with secret
topaz raptor
secret first only with blades and double dance? or on the in-between ones too
vale pine
during blades
you will secret in 2nd dance later because it comes up later
and you want to use secret with supercharger
so always first or second finisher after symbols
wispy pebble
How long do i delay SoD and Sectec for SD align? i sometiumes have like 7 secs left and can either send evis into Sd Sod Sectec or Sod Sectec and then dance with next cooldowns
topaz raptor
do you run tornado?
vale pine
you don't always need to use dance with symbols/secret
sometimes you need to send it blank
wispy pebble
Yea but do i just send it blank on cd or do i delay for 1 evis cast if that means i align
basically only happens when i have downtime due to mechanic tbh but still idk what to do then optimally
pliant topaz
u know what burst damage is?
its this
its 1 phasing a 17 mist first boss because your enhancement is doing 7M dps
fiery garnet
homies I fucking peaked
tidal furnace
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
merry agate
plays quite nice in keys does it?^^
only 1 boss feels very awkward at least for me skarmorak in SV
light imp
u know what burst damage is?
Man.. how. I have an enh shaman. And albeit it isn't super geared, but wtf where is the damage coming from 🤣
merry agate
flurry fucks with the crystals and bacstabbing them... well useless xD
pliant topaz
Man.. how. I have an enh shaman. And albeit it isn't super geared, but wtf where...
ascnendance + pi
- breath
pliant topaz
theres always an aug
spatial too good
rescue very good
the extra healing and tankiness for tnaks very good
so the ppal can sac the enhance
sullen hare
Maybe I'll crawl out of my self imposed key exile and give the rework changes a spin
lethal gale
I have 3 pieces of crafted gear with ele focusing lens - is there a way to remove lens from one of the pieces so I can equip all 3?
light imp
They gotta give SD and symbols a small haste ratio CDR. Not being a PI target and hero being a meh dps increase feels bad. Something to raise hastes value
sullen hare
I have 3 pieces of crafted gear with ele focusing lens - is there a way to remov...
Griftah's vanishing powder
Requires a recraft
lethal gale
Requires a recraft
-_- thank you
sullen hare
Hey on the upside it adds +1 sparkle! ✨
Hmmm maybe that was last expansion let me look and see what it is now
If you look at the bottom of the optional reagents whichever one is the current one should be there
lethal gale
griftahs heavy duty i believe
sullen hare
Right you are, Ken
bitter gate
Any changes to the builds on wowhead with the deathstalker fix?
hazy breach
Not sure what you mean by deathstalker fix
bitter gate
Thought there was a bug causing the mark to fall of or something. Maybe Im thinking of something else though. Been gone for a couple days
my bad
hazy breach
But no nothing changed really, i'd recommend playing trickster though
teal night
when are we using BP now in AoE ? is it back to more than 10 targets or whatever?
hazy breach
Roughly 12, but ye, otherwise no bp
teal night
copy
pliant topaz
Roughly 12, but ye, otherwise no bp
i actually did a lil mathing with my friend like 2 minutes ago. turns out if you bp on 16 targets with sub (during dance/sod), it does about 600k less damage per cast than a chain lightning thats harcapped at 5 targets
pliant topaz
enhance
gray yew
Do I use Shuriken Tornado after Shadow Blades or After Secret Technique in aoe?
mighty light
Anybody else find it super annoying that if dance is still up you can't stealth?
regardless of combat
umbral apex
loving trickster sub. 11 SV, I'm 613 and my mates are 628(shaman), 629(ret)
once I get more geared I think I can definitely give ret a run for his money
pliant topaz
blades is usually bugged with scaled content so probably
misty condor
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
misty condor
Out of curiosity, is there good reason the Trickster Dungeon Slice simulation doesn't have Blind/AI? Or is it just purely for optimal dps? And Atrophic Poison over Numbing Poison?
rustic raven
Out of curiosity, is there good reason the Trickster Dungeon Slice simulation do...
zero thought goes into the utility nodes