subtlety

[keen dome]

I guess, ideally, it'd be nice if The Rotten was somewhere else 'cos it doesn't feel like a capstone talent (it's good, though, I like it a lot now)

And we could take DB or finality or something with this new setup.

I still think DB is a fantastic piece of Sub's identity.

[vestal escarp]

Rotten is capstone tier

Strong talent

[vale pine]

agree

[keen dome]

It is strong, but in my ideal, idiotic world, I'd have it on the row where PV is.

I think it does what PV / Lingering Shadows do but better in a more fun ay.

[vale pine]

but rotten is also nice in keys

[vestal escarp]

Guaranteed crits interact with both hero trees

[vale pine]

as it guarantees you to have find weakness

[delicate ridge]

I still think Lingering should lead into 2pt rotten into goremaws bite and make goremaws the main center piece of a generator build

but still keep it weaker than fininisher sub as finisher sub should be priority

[vale pine]

goremaws, pv, etc

should be removed

[keen dome]

Yeah

[vale pine]

and replaced

[keen dome]

Strong agree.

[vale pine]

tornado needs a rework

it does not work with the current design

and thats on top of having many usability problems

[keen dome]

The Rotten is the kind of design PV / Lingering need. It's a very good, thematic, well designed talent with how Sub plays. PV / Lingering suck, imo.

[near rivet]

turn tornado in kyveza intermission style shadow storm

[delicate ridge]

If you want to just delete them I also agree but I always look for work arounds as it seems they want to keep build variety open

[merry agate]

As capstone instead of Rotten?

Would be to busted with 3 charges now i guess?

Abberus tier-Set Bonus 🤔

[molten citrus]

have you guys played goremaws at all in pve?

[vale pine]

yes, for 2 entire years

[molten citrus]

i somewhat liked it with trickster early this season for pvp

[vale pine]

in legion

[vestal escarp]

Sometimes in 10.2

[keen dome]

I tried it back in DF.. S3? And then never again.

[delicate ridge]

but yea sub is a finisher spec imo and should stay that way but im fine with a generator build existing as long as it never overshadows or slips in like rn having to use rotten is bleh

[vale pine]

but for DF

goremaws was never good enough

[keen dome]

I dislike how it adds button bloat. Although, arguably, putting it where Sepsis used to be might be a fun idea..

[molten citrus]

yes i meant since new talent :d

[vale pine]

the new talent simply changed its cooldown

to 45 secs

[molten citrus]

it does a decent amount of dmg with the trickster crit dmg

[vale pine]

which made it align worse

[keen dome]

I imagine it allowing 3 finishers with no energy cost is pretty nice in pvp too?

[delicate ridge]

Yea idk goremaws was always one of the most underwhelming artifact powers

[near rivet]

for the next 4 seconds, every time you reach 5+ cp release a black powder or something similar in effect. suddendly it works with blades and shadowcraft cp generation

[delicate ridge]

Honestly means nothing sub has so many different ways to get energy its just not needed

[keen dome]

Fair

[vale pine]

sounds not that interessting

[vale pine]

energy is just a solved problem

if it wasn't we would probably use tea

[keen dome]

Yeah, good point.

[vale pine]

[molten citrus]

Rotten+Surprising Strikes made it do like 2m dmg

but very true it doesn't align well

[vale pine]

pvp is weird

[molten citrus]

i know i know

:p

[vale pine]

because pvp changes the spec 180°

now you suddenly have all damage in builders

and pv, rotten, etc

all can be good

goremaws, er

[molten citrus]

we almost always use finisher damage

there was just 1 meme build with er/goremaws when tww launched - it got nerfed pretty quickly

[keen dome]

haha

[vale pine]

lol

[near rivet]

thats an bandaid angle.
my wet dream is something like

consume all combo point generated over next 4 seconds, up (max cp * 4) in total, after that, do an kyveza intermission on enemies. Damage is scaled with combo points consumed

[vale pine]

i do like the moonglaive trinket idea

[keen dome]

Same

[hollow cobalt]

I love that

[keen dome]

Very easy to theme it around sub (Ky'veza lmao)

[vale pine]

maybe make it on you instead of stationary

[keen dome]

Summon shadow clones to strike at enemies around you

[vale pine]

ye something like this

[delicate ridge]

Soul capacitor

goated trink

[keen dome]

Soul Cap was a lot of fun, haha

[vale pine]

i think they won't do something like it

the spec is already quite bursty

[keen dome]

Tornado is def a design space I could see them touching. It's a very archaic ability.

[delicate ridge]

I am always happy to take more burst for sub tbh having an in built soul capacitor would be dope

dont really mind if it kills our downtimes even more

[sinful sluice]

is this bug as well?

idk how i got this much dmg off sb

[keen dome]

I would also like to see them do something about Cheap Shot / Shrouded / SD. I hate the two point tax (okay one 'cos Shrouded isn't bad for mobility). Cheap Shot, though.. I hate it's placement.

[vestal escarp]

Looks a shadowlands raid

[hollow cobalt]

You throw a smoke bomb around you for 4s. Ennemies in it take % more damage from your abilities (targets are fazed if trickster)

[keen dome]

My SB was doing this on some legacy content too. There was an issue around launch where SB did way too muchd amage to legacy content (I.e., anything prior to DF)

[sinful sluice]

ah i see

[keen dome]

So I assume that bug is back again. Pretty harmless, honestly.

[delicate ridge]

Shot in the dark atleast should be removed and just attached to the "Control is King" pvp talent

[vale pine]

if its the event boss

its a scaling problem

[delicate ridge]

has no reason to exist in the actual talents

[vale pine]

you do a lot of damage on it

[keen dome]

I had it doing the same on my weekly Speculer reclear, too.

[sinful sluice]

i thought there was another broken shit happening again haha

[keen dome]

Which is why I think it's that bug, specifically but I could be very wrong.

[sinful sluice]

honestly i think i like this version of sub better then dust version

idk why probs cuz its easier to play

[quasi wedge]

guys i have some unimportant questions

1. sectech is 5 yds and the area is fixed to where casted right?
2. is sectech (and nimble) the only thing not working with blades
3. why do we blades early in aoe
4. keeping cp for dance into sectech is worse than dance strike sectech cuz danse macabre yeah? esp with premed now
   thx

[sinful sluice]

and doesnt have to plan everything

[vestal escarp]

The dust we were playing in tww had way less planning

[vale pine]

1. 8 yards and its around you just like BP
2. kinda
3. it does not matter as much, as you don't get benefits from premed
4. you don't rly want to wait for cooldowns with max cp, typically lose energy and cp doing so.
   but we:
   symbols-dance-strike-secret
   typically

like e.g. 2

you don't get combo points from blades for tornado ticks

so there are some exceptions, but you mentioned the bigger ones

blades not working with secret is also explainable

[quasi wedge]

thx helps alot kusskuss

[vale pine]

the clone attacks are pet attacks, and as such don't get the benefits from blades

for tornado, you would play it on single target if it worked

so its more a result of not wanting to have aoe talents as default

so a bit of dicdating how you play the spec

which in this case is a good thing

[quasi wedge]

tornado thing makes sense

[vale pine]

most other bugs are just consequence of design

basically, having spells that initially had 1 part

spread in two

or three

is a lot of change that allows for oopsies

e.g. to highlight what i mean

eviscarate had a rank 2

which did just increase the damage of the spell

what was done in deisgn was

remove the rank 2

[near rivet]

it was a flat 50% buff and everyone liked it

[vale pine]

and introcude find weakness

then add back the rank 2

as shadow damage but requires find weakness up on the target to proc

the damage was the same esp. on single target

because find weakness has 100% uptime

but you now have 3 spells for the same result

[near rivet]

you sure FW had 100% uptime?

[vale pine]

initially yes

[near rivet]

i remember tracking it for some reason

in BFA

[vale pine]

it chanegd over time and iterations

e.g. you would vanish for find weakness uptime

[near rivet]

yea

[vale pine]

but in DF

you had 100% by default

also not entirely true

because you could have like 1-2% lower uptime

[near rivet]

yep

[vale pine]

but you likely remember

we didn't take the find weakness node in the general tree

at all

the 1-2% extra uptime was not worth it

[near rivet]

we took backstab node instead

[vale pine]

we always had that

[near rivet]

and storm

hmm

vanish into ER as outlaw in SL

that was good shit

procced FW

[quiet steeple]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

haha ye

[quasi wedge]

btw do we consider +3 cp from supercharger like normal cp or just ignore them
we should be at max cp with them most of the time but I'm just curious

[vale pine]

you would consider them normal cp

but premeditation makes it fairly easy

because you get to finish 2 times fast after symbols

[dreamy wedge]

Hey. What woulld the opener looks like without using vanish? Just skip the evis and use rupture before poping CD's?

[vale pine]

you would backstab instead

[dreamy wedge]

So a small rupture?

[vale pine]

you would use multiple, not only one

but the minimum you would need to do was to cover 20 sec

[fleet maple]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[dreamy wedge]

Could you please explain the logic to me? won't it make more sense to skip the evis, use rupture and then not waste several seconds of CD's not being used?

[near rivet]

you have supercharged ready on pull because you used symbols 30 seconds ago

you first global grands you max cp and you evi with it

you should have 1-2 stacks of sht ready by the time you use backstab

[lilac stag]

Evis is two for one. Finish + snd

You put that up first

Then you’re in backstab hell for rupture.

[near rivet]

so 2-3 cp + 3cp from charged is 5-6 cp rupture

enough to cover it for cooldowns

[dreamy wedge]

Thanks all three of you.

[azure heron]

w8 fatebound is stronger for assa than deathstalker now?

[sly shore]

they are equal but deathstalker is less rng

they were equal before

[lucid trail]

Premed is only from True stealth right? And not from sd aswell?

[alpine wraith]

premed also works from dance

[lucid trail]

Oh shit

Ait

Ty

[near rivet]

btw, does fatebound assa still bug cold blood?

[nimble burrow]

i am improved

[keen dome]

Hell yeah!

[trim ridge]

Yo guys is the bug fixed or still fucked

[fallow raven]

what bug?

[trim ridge]

the empowered evis bug +3cp

[alpine wraith]

still fucked

[trim ridge]

no fucking way

[alpine wraith]

only thing that got fixed is you can proc DN with a 4 cp evis and charger

but we dont want that anyway

[trim ridge]

its been like 12 fucking hours

[near rivet]

worst thing about being a rogue is that you never know if by bug people mean something you already know or something new came out 1hr ago

[dreamy wedge]

are you serious? when did you expect them to fix this?

[wispy pebble]

i mean if we found it today then there is no way we get that fixed today

[alpine wraith]

hey at least they fixed an almost 3 year old bug

hats off

[shy ermine]

americans are waking up soon

[trim ridge]

it feels impactfull enough to get fixed fast

[alpine wraith]

they are locked in

[near rivet]

which one?

[alpine wraith]

recuperator

[wispy pebble]

ele bug was up longer and that was more critical, so was coup bug

[near rivet]

oh i forgot about its existence

[short radish]

how do i take replicating and TFD in keys

[near rivet]

2 months for flensing knives is pretty good timer too

[tribal blade]

drop WM i think

[wispy pebble]

drop WM

[alpine wraith]

correct

[short radish]

[tribal blade]

TFD opens the path to inev

[short radish]

oh yeah

kk

im working on getting back into it

TFD in dawnbreaker

is so good

like up for every pack

[tribal blade]

that does sound interesting

TFD value is insane in there

[short radish]

yeah

[wispy pebble]

if you vanish quick enough you should even have it between p1 and 2 last boss no?

[tribal blade]

hm on the last boss in DB

[short radish]

you cant vanish last boss DB

and get it back

i tried

[tribal blade]

haha i was literally about to think about that

[hazy breach]

You never drop combat

[wispy pebble]

ah because its in combat

[short radish]

yeah

[wispy pebble]

sadge

[alpine wraith]

one boss you can do that is gb 3 boss

for some reason

[short radish]

yeah but....

you shouldnt

🙂

[tribal blade]

imagine if they made TFD to also include any time you aren't attacking for ~6 seconds too

[short radish]

okay whats the purpose of vanish now for sub in keys

[trim ridge]

do u guys feel like vanish has been working weird? everytime i vanish it takes me out of stealth before doing the shadowstrike

[alpine wraith]

why you shouldnt the guy jumps down

[wispy pebble]

well the target dies so i guess its ooc

[alpine wraith]

then you just wait

in stealth like agud boi

then scream at your healer when he puts you in combat

with 1 sec of TFD about to proc

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[tribal blade]

utility and defensiveness

vanish is actually a very strong defensive

[short radish]

yeah it kinda is

[tribal blade]

in certain situations

[wispy pebble]

also free full CP with ss

[tribal blade]

it's really nice to not have power tied to vanish

you have a backup button

[short radish]

yeah

i like holding vanish for when i need it

[tribal blade]

true if you need to pump a boss a little harder you can use it for that too

but in general holding it for oh shit moments is really good

[wispy pebble]

opener feels slow as hell without it though

on ST

[tribal blade]

it does feel clunky for sure

if only they were just make snd baseline or proc off all finishers

our opener would be a lot less scuffed w/o vanish

[nimble burrow]

does the overall dmg in ~1.4M is good?

[tribal blade]

truthfully not really, but it's dependent on the level key you're doing, your gear and other stuff

[nimble burrow]

625 around but i always doing 10+?

[tribal blade]

but any progress you make is good progress!

[wispy pebble]

they could also move premed to SD casts but vanish only being defensive is also kinda meh

[tribal blade]

i haven't tried using new sub yet in keys so i can't really say from experience

but it looked like some of the guys in here were hitting close to or just at 2 mil overall

but that's the theorycrafters who basically do the rotation perfectly

[wispy pebble]

my dslice sim is 1.9 and im at 1.4 avg in keys depending on target count. TBF sim doesnt include evis bug so there is some aoe dmg missing there

unless nimble doesnt amp anyways? but i guess it should?

[hazy breach]

Youre probably simming with full raidbuffs too

[wispy pebble]

Oh yea true

[tribal blade]

true you gain a shitton of damage from full raid buffs

[wispy pebble]

im also using oil and rank 2 flask so there is a bit dmg as well compared to sim

[tribal blade]

i think the difference between r2 and r3 consumables isn't huge

at least the last time i compared the numbers it didn't seem that big

[alpine wraith]

depends if you only downgrade 1 it is ok

but as you pile them up you can lose more than 1%

[tribal blade]

i started buying r3 consumables any time i do a 13 now

because i'm sweaty

[alpine wraith]

i say this myself and still use r2 flasks and pots btw

[tribal blade]

it's so expensive right now

[alpine wraith]

but whetstones and all enchants etc are r3

[tribal blade]

to buy all r3 stuff

[wispy pebble]

my setup with only BL sims for 1.6 mil i guess 1.4 avg is okayish atleast

[alpine wraith]

yea dungeons will be usually below dslice for sub

[marble quartz]

Secret tech is slapping so hard in dongeons now

[wispy pebble]

ah nvm that still has a rune in it as well XD

[alpine wraith]

because bosses tank your dps quite hard

actually rune is super big rn

1700 agi is crazt

[wispy pebble]

but kinda money waste if you dont push no?

[alpine wraith]

of course

[tribal blade]

yeah it's only worth if you're actually pushing high keys

[alpine wraith]

even on M raiding unless everyone is using it the diff wont be much

[tribal blade]

or you have gold to burn

[wispy pebble]

1.561M Dps is the sim with the stuff i use for dslice.
Do we know how much loss the bug is ?

[alpine wraith]

the evis one is not super big

but havent mathed it out

because you can circumvent it a bit

[molten ivy]

sorry if its been asked before, any shadow teq weakaura similar to CPs? I've pasted luxthos' but it stops working after logging off 😦

[alpine wraith]

with coup and rupture

[wispy pebble]

does it affect shadowed finishers?

[alpine wraith]

supercharger never worked with shadowed finishers

so no impact there

[wispy pebble]

ofc it didnt...

but danse amp and tset work right?

[hazy breach]

Yes, its deathstalker stuff thats bugged

[muted agate]

when buff sub aoe

[hazy breach]

Technically shadowed finisher itself does more than it "should". As its based on pre-armour damage of eviscerate. eg if your evis would do 100 dmg pre-armor, it then gets reduced to 77 but shadowed finishers still do 30

[wispy pebble]

as a dev, everytime i hear you talk about stuff like that i want to refactor the entire spec lmao

[alpine wraith]

they overcomplicated things

then we are not surprised they mess things up a lot

sec tech shadowed and blades are a can of big worms

ovi nax lvl worms

[hazy breach]

I dont think thats a bug fwiw, i think its intended to be like that

[alpine wraith]

possibly but there is no intent anywhere to indicate

when i have to route through telia nodes in EU i put some # comments saying why

[wispy pebble]

does the "normal" in nimble mean amp doesnt work on it anyways or is this to exclude stuff like shadowed finishers

[alpine wraith]

like there are no better ones and if they fuck up not my fault

[hazy breach]

It includes shadowed finishers

[wispy pebble]

then what the hell is "normal damage"

[alpine wraith]

yea nimble is kinda ok apart from not getting buffed by fazed or working with blades

i do wish singular focus and it worked with sec tech tho

[tribal blade]

did whispyr really change his discord name to open wowhead

that's incredible

[wispy pebble]

haha yea he did. Understandable though

[tribal blade]

hehe yeah probably getting spammed with the same question over and over again

i took a look at r.io to see what build sin rogues are running in keys, and it looks like there's a lot of experimentation going on atm

and kush doing his own thing as usual

[woeful egret]

being a public figure of sime kind must be rough

I couldn't deal with spam dms

[azure mauve]

dude sub is fucking insane in p1 of mythic ansurek

you out there gapping everyone

[hazy breach]

90s burst spec is good at 120s phase ye

[tribal blade]

sectec has always been really good at burst moments where there's a lot of things that die quickly

[wispy pebble]

I padded really dumb dmg on hc ansurek nets haha

[hazy breach]

Mythic doesnt have much (or any) webs

[azure mauve]

it only has one really tough web set

[wispy pebble]

log was also mega ass not sure if nets are filtered out afterwards

[azure mauve]

where i pull so far ahead

[tidal python]

supercharger still bugged?

[azure mauve]

you also do top boss dam

in p1

well i was anyways

[hazy breach]

Well ye, other people are holding cds for shield

The 2 mins

[wispy pebble]

yea my p1 is always good log as well. I just fall off a cliff in p2

although wipe logs are weird anyways

[tribal blade]

the platforms seems really fucking wonky for sub

there is never a good time to use cds there

at least on heroic

[wispy pebble]

yea you kinda want to burst the 2 adds on first but one just goes to narnia and then ure not in range to cleave

[hazy breach]

On mythic first platform is fine

Idk should just move the melee guy to the ranged guy and they should be stacked

[alpine wraith]

on M you are assigned to 1st platform usually

although some are demonic like stealthi guild and he has to pop on shield

but it is the beauty of being able to mov things around a bit

yea for the pull remember as long as you are in the air but not out of the platform

you can step

to negate it

[near rivet]

when you pop on first platform the cds are back right on last phase, right?

[wispy pebble]

i tried that once and failed. Now im scared

[hazy breach]

You just have to move a bit into the middle of the platform and then step the caster

Or well, you technically can step the melee guy, but the caster often aims at him so you'll get blasted

[autumn flame]

Kinda weird how you can't step if you are off the platform

[alpine wraith]

yes

[tribal blade]

it's weird because you can step back onto rashanan's platform

if you get pulled off

[alpine wraith]

you cant go out of the platform

if you do it is joever

[tribal blade]

maybe it has something to do with rashanan being technically off the platform already

[autumn flame]

I have but

It's wonky

[wispy pebble]

ah so timing is really short if i am at edge. Thats where i fucked up i guess

[alpine wraith]

they are in different phases

[tribal blade]

i did it once when we were wiping on a pull

[autumn flame]

That hitbox is so fucked

[alpine wraith]

so there is no path to come back

[autumn flame]

How much does sub do in P1?

[alpine wraith]

if you can use all cds on boss quite a lot

[rocky carbon]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[steel horizon]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/45jXwVakCqq64W5EHWQG3r

is it normal that scroll of momentum is my best simming trinket? is it sim bait with the movement speed thing?

on ST at least

[vale pine]

its good

[steel horizon]

Ok i was just a bit confused cus most of the tier lists rank it pretty low but i guess its pretty up there in ST at least

[soft summit]

Do we fire off sec tech every time it’s up with sod or do we hold it for shadow dance?

What’s the best way to track unseen blade? It only lasts for 10 sec but has a 20 sec cooldown. So what I’m finding is after flawless form drops I’m randomly backstabbing to try to trigger unseen blade. Most of the time is does nothing and I just wasted energy on a backstab when I could have used shurikan storm

[steel horizon]

You can't really track it because auto attacks have a RNG chance to reset your chance to strike with unseen blade

The most reliable way to reset unseen blade CD is using sec tec really

But as far as I know, I don't think there is a way to see when the CD of it has been reset whether its done through auto attack rng, or the natural 20 sec cd

[rough geyser]

Is sub rogue fixed yet

[grave parcel]

Is supercharger broken in pve as well or just pvp?

[vale pine]

what part of it?

[vale pine]

both

[rough geyser]

Supercharge bug finality bug

Imagine waiting 3 months for a rework and it doesnt work after 2 days

Back to df standards for this spec

[grave parcel]

Are they aware of this issue?

I know our bugs tend to get ignored for long periods of time so it wouldn’t surprise me if this is something that goes on the back burner

[cunning coral]

devs rarely talk about specific class bugs

[hazy breach]

yes

[cunning coral]

but in this case

ye

[grave parcel]

Let’s hope they can find a resolution to it soon

[sick sand]

any way to sim acidic attendant's loop (629) finger?

[hazy breach]

Topgear

[sick sand]

ty

[midnight shuttle]

So trickster better for single target now?

[hazy breach]

Not really

Deathstalker ever so slightly better on ST but any cleave makes trickster better

[trim ridge]

did they talk abt it somewhere?

[hazy breach]

Not officially no, but ive heard that theyre aware and it should be fixed shortly. Allegedly also a fix to make sure you cant accidently double symbols without a macro

[alpine wraith]

not really but we do report things

[woeful egret]

the double symbols thing is annoying

[hazy breach]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[trim ridge]

[grave parcel]

What if u need energy does that mean you can’t use symbols again if the buff is up?

[hazy breach]

What

There is no scenario where you would want to use symbols twice at the same time

[grave parcel]

Maybe not In pve

[alpine wraith]

that is rabid behaviour

in pvp

[hazy breach]

Why would you need to use it twice in pvp

we dont have any spells that cost 100 energy

[grave parcel]

To supercharge more then 2 eviserates on a go?

[hazy breach]

Just use it a second later then?

[alpine wraith]

if you want to do that you use it after you spend the 2 charges

[grave parcel]

That’s what I’m asking

[gilded ferry]

but isnt evis bugged

[alpine wraith]

it is

but hopefully not for long

[hazy breach]

idk what youre asking

[grave parcel]

What is double symboling I guess? I hit symbols it goes on a quick gcd as of now

[hazy breach]

Using them at literally the same time

Because youre spamming the button

[alpine wraith]

yea that is a mistake you can make

not something you do

[grave parcel]

Oh so it wouldn’t be like how they fixed dance

Where u have to wait till symbols buff is over to use it again

[alpine wraith]

yea

[steel horizon]

Supercharger still works with coup right?

[hazy breach]

yes

[gilded ferry]

do i only use sod when sectec is ready?

[edgy zenith]

you never factor Sectec into sending CDs

[hazy breach]

The opposite

Now

Since everything else can be held and sectech cannot

You just base most decision on that

[gilded ferry]

its been really hard to wrap my brain around this new logic tbh

[alpine wraith]

you get used to it as you plau

[hazy breach]

So when sectech is up (or have <10s left) you'd check if flag is more than ~20 seconds away. If it is then you check if you send symbols or dance now, do you still have enough to have 2x during flag?

[edgy zenith]

wtf

[gilded ferry]

exactly buddy

welcome to my personal hell

[hazy breach]

#1271971289396936735 message

[edgy zenith]

i have like a rank 10 parse on bloodbound and have never looked at this

interesting

im a lucky duck

[rough geyser]

U use 1 per go in pvp

Use extra if u swap

U run 2x sod charge in pvp

[gilded ferry]

i may have to admit to myself that i might be too dumb to play sub now

its joever

[rough geyser]

Best case scenario u proc shadowcraft and u reuse sod

[hazy breach]

Yes but you never use em literally at the same time

Which is what i said

[rough geyser]

Nah wasste of energy

[hazy breach]

Exactly

[rough geyser]

Especially cos trickster bis rn

Ur very energy starve

[edgy zenith]

oh you can send sectech with only SoD now?

wasn't that illegal last patch?

or am I wrong there too

lmao

[alpine wraith]

sometimes you send it even with no dance or SoD

it is like that

[molten citrus]

What

Trickster isn’t even “bis”

But at most you would symbols->consume the 2 supercharger charges then symbols again

If you’re sure you’re about to secure a kill

Any other double symbols usage is a waste

-# (this is all referring to pvp)

[real panther]

I didnt noticed cleave is now limited to 7 target... WHY. Black powder mandatory then?

i'm lost. I dont do 5M on pack anymore but barely 3

[golden totem]

mfw i step the beam guy and i still get hit by his beam

[lucid jackal]

@pliant topaz

[pliant topaz]

Hi sup

[jaunty heath]

Hi sup

[woeful egret]

that's quite the name you have there

[pliant topaz]

U can also use it without sod. If 30<flag de <20

[hollow cobalt]

So axtually I need to SoD before pull right ?

[pliant topaz]

Pre pull sod like 20-25 sec before yeah

The extension on rupture is quite important

[hollow cobalt]

My guild pull timer is 10 😅

[jaunty heath]

Surely with all these conditions you could make a weakaura that shows secret tech icon in the middle of your screen every time its allowed to press it

[pliant topaz]

Sure, rez sod done

[jaunty heath]

Since it’s just time conditions

Or am I trippin

[steel heart]

My thoughts exactly 😁

[gilded ferry]

if that was made please send it to me

[jaunty heath]

Because cdr on it is irrelevant since it only matters when it’s off cd

I might be trippin

[hazy breach]

Ye that happens too Gotta move back a bit afterwards

[pliant topaz]

I did that and fell off the edge >:C

[hazy breach]

Its always been +7 targets. BP on ~12 targets

[round latch]

sounds fun

[hazy breach]

It is

Its not that complicated

[round latch]

if u wanna check into a psychiatric facility for sure

😄

[tepid trellis]

hands off keyboard when stepping

[hazy breach]

No

[left ledge]

Bro I don’t know any of these rules

I just hit the boss

[vale pine]

na, its fun

try it

[hazy breach]

Yes you can mostly just press buttons

[left ledge]

I use my buttons when they feel right

[hazy breach]

Its not complicated

[hollow cobalt]

😄😄

[round latch]

im playing deathstalker now though,doing pvp but i definitely will

[left ledge]

Just make sure you have dances and sod for cooldowns

Other than that

I can’t recount anything I intentionally do

[tepid trellis]

just play by feel

works 99% of the time

[pliant topaz]

Yep that’s good enough tbh

[timid rivet]

we still play DS in raid on sikran and princess ?

[round latch]

u danzo with queen?

[pliant topaz]

U can but won’t have to. Flensing got fixed and they’re about the same in st

[gilded ferry]

you know what feels good

m+

[tepid trellis]

im in p3

so hopefully soon

free from this prison

[round latch]

watched ur stream but too lazy to type

[timid rivet]

thanks and some ppl know if some sub have bug abuse like outlaw did ? Like top 1-3 on warcraflogs byfar with DS on the 3 first boss

[left ledge]

We didn’t kill court this week

Despite being on kill pulls since Tuesday

Intermission 2 just deletes half our pulls

[alpine wraith]

yea but it is fixed now

[left ledge]

So depressing man

[timid rivet]

Did they will get kick from warcraftlogs or something ? Boring to see ppl abuse like that

[lilac stag]

coulda outlawed it.

[tepid trellis]

you getting the bug shit?

[left ledge]

It’s just invisible all the time man

Delayed 5 seconds

[tepid trellis]

that fucking blows

[left ledge]

They combo

One delays

The other instant

[tepid trellis]

they will get removed yes

[left ledge]

Like it’s so annoying

[tepid trellis]

at some point

[left ledge]

They just refuse to fix the fight but they aren’t punishing people who made the boss afk with burrow bug

[vale pine]

also its fixed now

[tepid trellis]

or the few sneaky people killing it with outlaw bug

[vale pine]

the bug was abused on deathstalker logs too

sneakily doing 3M dps

[left ledge]

Yeah that’s a little scummy too but at least they still did some mechanics lmao

I just find it crazy this shit is still not fixed

[tepid trellis]

or the random guild just suddenly having 2-3 ele shammys in on their queen prog

hmm

wonder why

[left ledge]

Just felt like zapping

You know

[tepid trellis]

absolute apes

[left ledge]

This tier is honestly just a joke

[gilded ferry]

oh, ok. i think i know what was the issue

[pliant topaz]

Apparently blizz is reviving the bosses and taking their loot if they killed it with outlaw abuse

[tepid trellis]

hope they fucking ban hammer all of them

[gilded ferry]

i was sending everything in the opener

we need to do 2x sod and 2x dances right?

after that, everything lines up

[tepid trellis]

blizz needs to strike down on this shit

[left ledge]

Nah

[tepid trellis]

ruins the integrity of the game

[left ledge]

Release another 100 dollar mount

With crafting table

[pliant topaz]

They did. 2 week ban, took away all their prog and loot

[left ledge]

https://x.com/nerftanktv/status/1849498060692520969?s=46&t=E_fLHkU4V5odp1Fo3iQmeA

NERF (@NerfTankTV) on X

"... or we're just incentivizing competitive players to take immediate advantage of every exploit they find." - Blizzard on ban for reputation gain.

What happened to that? After the race game integrity is no longer relevant?

Twitter · Oct 24, 2024, 5:07 PM

[pliant topaz]

I mean maybe they can be harsher on multiple offenders

[tepid trellis]

they should honestly reset them back to 0/8

[pliant topaz]

But like they did though. They 14 day banned them. And reset all m+ and mythic even heroic kills

[tepid trellis]

its so pathetic

imagine spending so many hours on progging a boss

[vale pine]

6 months free vacation works too

[tepid trellis]

just to show up and throw all of that out the window

[left ledge]

What about the people who fought bosses that did no mechanics and did

[pliant topaz]

I think for many did

[tepid trellis]

cuz you wanna get a higher wr

scummy behavior

[left ledge]

Or the people that were yoinking bosses with webs

[pliant topaz]

At least they were humble about it kekwkekwkekw

Yeah idk that one should be addressed too

[tepid trellis]

LOL

[edgy zenith]

omg you can pre-pull SoD, does this fix the whole having to reapply rupture after SB window before going into next SoD? can you just send mandate and insta go into SoD?

[pliant topaz]

Yea

[edgy zenith]

do the charged CPs stay forever?

so I can send once after taking rez

or timer?

[left ledge]

Yes

You send a sod prepull

If you have time

[alpine wraith]

yea you SoD as you revive

then if you have a good prepull thing 17 is enough

[edgy zenith]

wait so if your guild is slow af, can you get like 6 charged?

[alpine wraith]

to get rotten on 2 strikes too

[left ledge]

No

[alpine wraith]

no it resets to 2

[left ledge]

Resets to two charges aka one sod

[edgy zenith]

this doesn't change opener right?

[left ledge]

No

[edgy zenith]

just adds CP to rupture and first evis?

[left ledge]

Yeah basically

It’s really not huge

[edgy zenith]

sounds nice for rupture though

sick tech

good shit guys

[sacred sun]

is sub rogue one of those specs where mechanics/movement can make you lose a lot of DPS compared to other melee specs?

[edgy zenith]

no

[left ledge]

Yes and no

[edgy zenith]

during CDs yes

but you can move CDs willynilly

compared to other specs

[vale pine]

depends on when they come in

[left ledge]

In your down time you can basically afk

[vale pine]

but we are fairly dynamic with the new talents we use this patch

[sacred sun]

okie i will give sub rogue a try, ditching warlock for a fun spec!

[alpine wraith]

right now you can hold everything but sec tech

so the loss is less than usual if you know mechanics

i guess CB cd can also get a bit messed up but you get it eventually on cds anyway unless it was super unsynched

[sacred sun]

🫡

[regal stag]

guys, quick question: why do we take replicating shadows when playing trickster, but gloomblade when playing deathstalker ?

[alpine wraith]

more dmg

[regal stag]

that's a given, i believe, but i don't see what's so different between the two hero tree for this change.

i should have thought that deathstalker should have prefered replicating shadows (because of corrupt the blood).

whereas, with nimble flurry, gloomblade would have be more suited (50% of an armor bypassing attack, but i'm not good at math. like not at all)

[alpine wraith]

the difference is they do almost the same dmg

just deathstalker does a bit more with gloomblade

[pliant topaz]

corrupt the blood ha sno effect with replicating shadows

[alpine wraith]

because of lingering darkness

[pliant topaz]

deathstalker likes gloomblade because 1) it has lingering darkness that amps shadow damage -> amps gb damage
2) everytime u consume marks it makes your next builder do more damage -> buffs the gloomblade even more

[regal stag]

oh. i see. more synergy with shadow blades

[alpine wraith]

a bit too but not huge we dont really stab with blades

unless you play first dance but could not get it to be a decent gain

it was at most neutral-0.2

to use stab once after consuming rotten in a first dance dance with blades

[regal stag]

(i was thinking about the buff AFTER shadow blades, with lingering)

[alpine wraith]

yea that is the decider

[gilded ferry]

are we sending all 3 charges in the opener?

[uneven scarab]

no no

just two

[rough geyser]

Its best dmg rn

Fym bro lmao

Pvp wise

[molten citrus]

you mean because Supercharger is bugged?

[vale pine]

no, just one per dance

[molten citrus]

pre Supercharger bug Deathstalker was the most damage in pvp. trickster is not far behind and offers cleave into melee comps, but Deathstalker is still the better choice into 90% of match ups.

[stiff stirrup]

Do people in general like the new shadow blades or the old one?

[alpine wraith]

bait and switch is quite good in pvp

[regal stag]

easier to align with flag.

[alpine wraith]

the trickster ones are kinda meh

new blades is better for most situations

[regal stag]

deathstalker seems fun, but damn, hard to let go of nimble flurry.

[alpine wraith]

i like trickster because it deletes parry

for me and everyone

[uneven scarab]

Ds in aoe feels stinky

[prisma herald]

did eviscerate get fixed to correctly benefit from SC yet?

[edgy zenith]

is pin not updated with correct build? it's not using gloomblade

[vale pine]

the gloomblade deathstalker build is another 0.3% dps

so ye

[edgy zenith]

dropping what for it? IST?

[craggy quest]

Wait it does it for the raid as well?

That’s neat

[vale pine]

moment

!sheet has the sims

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[edgy zenith]

gloomblade is literally just a stronger backstab, right? no difference in gameplay at all?

same gen, same range, just more dam?

[ruby portal]

most notably, it does shadow damage, so depending on how you spec (i.e. dark brew + other shadow damage talents), it can help it hit even harder.

[vale pine]

updated the comparison st sim in the pins too

[ruby portal]

I think it also helps remove the positioning requirements - i prefer taking it

[proper fulcrum]

fuu goat

never forget

[jaunty umbra]

rip bozo won't be missed

[soft summit]

So are we just using sec tech as soon as it comes off cooldown even if no shadow dance or symbols is available?

[left ledge]

You shouldn’t be having a sectec come up with no dance

I think the only exception is when you’re holding for flag and blades

[fair stump]

bruh what's this garbage, supercharger not working with evisc smh

[left ledge]

In which case you still have a dance but you just hold for cds

[left ledge]

Shouldn’t surprise you

[soft summit]

I’m so lost. What does this mean?

[left ledge]

This whole expansion has been nothing but bugs

[fair stump]

That's SO much damage lost

[uneven scarab]

Supercharged rupture

[fair stump]

Eleem said to do symbols into rupture into dance

[left ledge]

Just try to use it on a rupture and sectec idk

Other than that you’re kinda shafted

[uneven scarab]

Yes supercharged rupture is exactly what that means

[soft summit]

Please make this weak aura. My brain don’t work for sub no more

[fair stump]

What do we do when we are dancing and we have supercharged CP?

[uneven scarab]

since supercharger doesnt work on the phys hit of evis rn

[alpine wraith]

ideally you only supercharge rupture on opener

[uneven scarab]

Just play like normal

[fair stump]

BP?

[alpine wraith]

but well we have a bug rn so

[pliant topaz]

guy promised me it would be fixed

[fair stump]

So evisc even if it means losing on supercharged CP?

[pliant topaz]

i cant believe guy would do this to me

[uneven scarab]

y

[alpine wraith]

let them cook the whole day it is early in NA for sure

copium

or maybe it is fixed by reset

[uneven scarab]

Doubt they do anything today

[fair stump]

pfft, blizzard only fixes rogue bugs if they are helping them do more dmg

[vale pine]

he didn't say when

[pliant topaz]

thats cheating

[fair stump]

I guess its time to play assa again sigh

[proper fulcrum]

Hell no

Sub or Die

[pliant topaz]

so technicaly if i say "theyre bringing back shruiken combo" u cant prove me wrong becuase i didnt sya when?

[alpine wraith]

yea that is why 8 years ago i said for sure nightstalker gets deleted

with so many bugs

AND I WAS RIGHT

[pliant topaz]

based

[keen dome]

Just how I'm right about us getting a posion toggle. Eventually.

SOmeday it will happen and I can go "Aha, see!"

[soft summit]

I just love how blizzard can find the time to instafix bugs that benefit our dps but bugs that hurt our dps can last for months

[keen dome]

It's never that simple.

[alpine wraith]

yea or 16 years ago man surely only assa is not getting to refresh snd and not sub or combat

dino always with the secret takes

[vale pine]

i can prove you wrong with a comment saying it won't return

your remaining way out would be

[alpine wraith]

nani

[vale pine]

"but maybe their stance changed"

surely thats the case

[alpine wraith]

yea their stance changed on this bad boi

[pliant topaz]

well they said they wouldnt bring anything similar to the original AH mount and here we are, so clealy their statements are not a trustable source

[alpine wraith]

printing gold brrrr

[pliant topaz]

so you cant rely on those to disprove me :p

[pastel rampart]

there's a post from 2019 saying they didn't want the ah mount to be everywhere like the repair mount

ye

[keen dome]

They should've made that Dino be for charity. Just.. incredibly funny and wholesome if it was

[alpine wraith]

well it is not everywhere

[keen dome]

The fox pack is adorable though

[alpine wraith]

it wont be in grim batol for sure

they upping their lawyerspeak

[vale pine]

we also still wait for the pickpocket improvements to vial

[keen dome]

Back when the AH was typically engineer exclusive too.

Which their stance changed on (for the better)

[vale pine]

will drop any patch now

[alpine wraith]

i still miss dropping from anywhere and not taking fall dmg

pls blizz

[keen dome]

Sameeeee.

[vale pine]

+1

sprint on water too

[alpine wraith]

that one had some ups too

[topaz raptor]

#wow-general message

[keen dome]

If I could make three changes to WoW:

1. Poison toggle.
2. No fall damage sub talent
3. Fix that wall in the alliance garrison that's been broken for over a decade.

[topaz raptor]

what about sprint on water

[keen dome]

Sorry the wall annoys me more.

[dreamy wedge]

What about not disconencting on shadowstep?

[keen dome]

Nope, wall.

[topaz raptor]

sprint on water was a banger

[vale pine]

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fj394hh5kwqwd1.png

is what people reference

[fair stump]

Bring back AoE Kidney

[vale pine]

very specific:

[keen dome]

Wait a minute they fixed the wall

no, wait. there it is.

[soft summit]

Why can you hold everything but sec tech?

[keen dome]

Look at this. It's unplayable.

[vale pine]

tl;dr: they never want qol mounts to become commodity

[stone raptor]

too heavy

[keen dome]

It's an interesting stance when we already had mammoths and stuff. I imagine it simply changed over time, like the Engineering AH thing.

[wraith sphinx]

Nvm I'm on your side now. That's disgusting

[vale pine]

and it makes sense, you remove incentives to use the main city hubs

so in a sense the critisims is correct

[keen dome]

It got broken in the final WoD patch and has just been slightly disconnected since lmao

[vale pine]

they break their own set design rules to print money

[lilac stag]

A lot can change in 5 years. Just look how much worse Sub’s bugs have gotten.

[keen dome]

Hahaha

[vale pine]

i have a thesis

[lilac stag]

majority of people seem quite happy. I’m of the who cares.

[vale pine]

tww optimizes too much on player engagement

and not enough on fun

[uneven scarab]

YES

perfectly put

[alpine wraith]

that is when the spreadsheet tycoons took over the people

[vale pine]

fun is suspective tho, and it seems many people love the long ass grinds and timegating

[keen dome]

I'm not sure I completely agree, but it does seem we're sliding back towards the BfA / SL style.

[alpine wraith]

have to learn from the gacha people with an army of psycologysts

[keen dome]

At least on the gearing front.

[alpine wraith]

to learn about it

[vale pine]

for me the problem is

the current system breaks flow

[alpine wraith]

i mostly play for gear so now i only do 8 M+ raiding

[vale pine]

for me feels like the game is a bit in a identity crisis

[alpine wraith]

and upgrading when i can

[vale pine]

does not know who to appeal to

[alpine wraith]

there is an event going for the anniversary

but i havent even gone there

lul

[vale pine]

e.g. if anything

[vestal escarp]

I didnt buy the mount

[vale pine]

i can say the game currently tries to appeal possibly the most towards the hard core long time playerbase

[pastel rampart]

for me the problem is I press talent for +3cp and then I evis and don't get +3cp

[lilac stag]

It’s a 20 y/o game with an aging player base. It is by its nature going to have to change to continue satisfying the subscriptions

[keen dome]

Yeah, I agree with you there Fuu. I think they need to return to the DF approach more than this. The design wants to appeal and be accessible (and i'd argue to an extent it is) but it's also moved a lot of the player power, gearing, end-game to a much higher point. Which.. eeeh. Not the best.

[woeful egret]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[woeful egret]

can I fit this into a one shot?

[lilac stag]

They player power was a tuning issues. They missed the medium to high zone by a mile.

[vale pine]

the event is basically:

• a long ass grind with dailie activities, a common deisgn from pre modern wow (mostly before legion)
• A raid with no real reward but tuned extremely tight

[lilac stag]

But to farm crests you have to significantly outgear everyone else’s in ilvl and io in lfg

[keen dome]

Ye

[lilac stag]

No one wants to run an 8 for 5 crests

So you invite the 626 people

[vale pine]

the raid from what i hear has great mechanics, but i don't think most people expect/want a lower/mid mthic raid level challange

[woeful egret]

I don't even want to do it for 12 crests

[keen dome]

I really hope, for S2, they return it to +6 and +8 for the reward structure.

[woeful egret]

but I have to

[keen dome]

Also add Myth vault to Delve 11. And my other crazy ideas that I think are cool and others may not.

[vale pine]

i talked to rosvall earlier today and i think difficultly for m+ is a interessting discussion

[lilac stag]

Delve 11 should have mythic vault

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[vale pine]

his position was the opposite of my one, he thinks hard content is to easy to access

[keen dome]

Interesting

[vale pine]

whats an interessting position to take

[keen dome]

I can see the logic there, yeah. I mean, ultimately M+ is two games, right?

2 - 10 weekly. and 11+ hard push content.

[vale pine]

i think of it like this

mythic+ so far was always in reward structure accessible

[woeful egret]

I don't think it's too difficult if you have the information, because it's content where your success is determined by what you know. Problem is, alot of people don't try to know anything

[vale pine]

and offered people the option to go up in level for a challange

[woeful egret]

or they don't set themselves up to be successful with addons etc

[alpine wraith]

we forget most people get stuck in 5 or 7

[vale pine]

now a big part of the same palyerbase is locked out of the rewards

[alpine wraith]

they dont even get to do 10 or 12 to get stuck there

[vale pine]

so they essentially need to do heroic raids, mythic lower bosses or other content to progress their gear

[alpine wraith]

there is a big void after 619 that is though for a lot of people

[soft summit]

players with the AH mount became so elitist. How many times would you go to use it just for the player to dismount or run away to prevent you from using it? I’m so glad bliz have everyone an option to have one (for money of course)

[woeful egret]

I've been sitting on +8 and +9 keys on my monk/rogue and I can't get friends to run them because it's too daunting. I have to pug to get it done

[vale pine]

so for me, i feel this drives players away from the game

rather than adjust the game to be more challanging

[keen dome]

I agree, I think it does, too.

[topaz raptor]

at the same time, the game should have you tackle harder content for better rewards

full 619 can be done in 4 keys right?

[keen dome]

Gear is ultimately a means to an end. A fun one, but even a casual player should have access to full on gear progression eventually which, with the 619 issue, they simply can't. Also the Champ / Hero piece issue is a pretty big design failure, imo.

[vale pine]

and it does not matter that very good palyers can do a 8 easy on 610 item level

if its a bigger struggle for many people

even on 620

[alpine wraith]

hero only going to 626 is weird

[keen dome]

I think an ideal curve would be that, the core players eventually outgear keys as diffculty shifts up. uh, the way Solo Shuffle relating inflation works kinda but not, right? If that makes sense.

[woeful egret]

people who haven't been running stuff also still think it's DF where you pull an absurd amount of mobs and shit

[alpine wraith]

a lot of people were doing 10s+ with 615 and lower gear

but the random andy i get is not going to do that

[vale pine]

also the crafting system is less appealing

because of the higher crest costs

[alpine wraith]

what crafting is the best now

so much better than in df

[keen dome]

Nah, Fuu's right. 90 crests is absurd

[uneven scarab]

The gold costs of everything

[vale pine]

you lose upgrades because they made the cost of one mythic piece 50% higher

[uneven scarab]

For materials

[alpine wraith]

or you mean crafting gear

yea that one is funny

[uneven scarab]

[regal stag]

heh as a casual myself i'm not sure i want to engage in heroic raiding, for instance. Mainly because i don't want to do it in a PUG. Having a ceiling does not seem that bad to me, and delves offer a good way to play and get a bit of gear. That said, there need to be more diverse loot in delves for it to be the casual endgame.

[alpine wraith]

i actually havent spent a craft yety

because upgrading mythic track items is better

[keen dome]

I think a simple solution would be: 626 should be hero. Myth reutrn to 4/4. I think it'd smooth out the issue immensely

[vale pine]

it just does not go well with the crest cap system which again time gates your gear progression

[soft summit]

Hey fuu, is the wowhead sub rotation guide up to date with all the stuff about sec tech and using 2 sods in flag window and sod pre pull, etc

[azure thicket]

just mine isle/hallowfall/azj kahet its 10k in 30 minutes smil

[uneven scarab]

Meanwhile i pickpocket a mob and i get 5 silver yet a piece of leather costs me 9,000 gold

[alpine wraith]

or flip some ore and get 70k

in 30 mins

[vale pine]

yes, the roation part is up to date, i want to refine the optimization section a bit

[pliant topaz]

I kinda like it tbh. I like that im looking forward to netx week because i can upgrade my next set of items. and the week after that to upgrade the rest, etc etc. I feel like at this point in season last few seasons, i was done with the game and had 0 progression left. but now i still have things that can make me stronger

[woeful egret]

tin foil hat theory, blizz artificially creates scarcity so gold inflation happens. People buy wow token to make up for it. Then release $90 mount and tokens sell out.

[pliant topaz]

it might feel bad that you feel gatekept, but i think thats fine (atleat for me)

[alpine wraith]

i actually kinda like getting power every week but some people might be sad

[pliant topaz]

becuase it means my characters not done yet

[vale pine]

eleem also put some visuals in #1271971289396936735, if you want to take a look

[alpine wraith]

maybe they are too good and already killed everything

[uneven scarab]

I got boe ring this week

I big happy

[keen dome]

I think that's a pretty good perspective, Armin. I think in an ideal world we'd have that feeling remain while also allowing for more accessibility in some form for people at lower levels of the game to climb a little easier.

[vale pine]

i think they haven't found a good balance yet

[alpine wraith]

i bough one with leech very happy

[vale pine]

to keep you engaged longer

[regal stag]

i sometimes wonder if WoW should not go toward a more horizontal progression of gear (chasing not ilvl, but different proc, some sets, etc... )

[vale pine]

while not feeling gatekept

[alpine wraith]

i think they just accepted wow is a seasonal game now

[azure thicket]

a lot of people are nervous about committing time to raiding at normal and heroic difficulty i know i was in df s3

[alpine wraith]

but try to keep the falling a bit lower

[vale pine]

by either crest caps or content difficulty

[alpine wraith]

and keep trying things

[vale pine]

to be fair their move was genius

they created the biggest FOMO with this mount in the existence of wow

and now probably made more money than with the xpac release

[keen dome]

I can't be mad because it's just absolutely genius

[azure thicket]

it would be nice if warband went for ilevel upgrades too or something so alt enjoyers could maybe get more for their time

[woeful egret]

it also sucks if you come back to the game from a break, most people I used to play with no longer play. I have no network so, I have to try to make something up again. Without previous achievements etc it feels like more work than it's worth quickly

[vale pine]

just from selling a slightly changed version of an existing item

[alpine wraith]

now i just need them to sell mtx

so i can have my evis shoot sparkles

[vale pine]

its like the best example of low effort development to milk your audience

[alpine wraith]

and rainbow cats

[keen dome]

Haha

[woeful egret]

"join a guild" I can join one, that doesn't make me a regular person in the m+ groups

[alpine wraith]

my friends did m+ for 1 month

then quit

unlucky

[keen dome]

It's often very cliquey, moreso now, @woeful egret. Because of the difficulty increase, the time and effort increase, etc.

[alpine wraith]

will scam them to come next expansion maybe

[woeful egret]

very true

[vale pine]

don't think they found a season that makes it less so

[alpine wraith]

ye they keep kinda failing imo

but at least they try

think the monthly tendies thing is cool

they are using the cool art team they have

[woeful egret]

I like chicken tendies

[keen dome]

It's easier to bring someone along to a Raid than it is for M+, because you can't really afford mistakes in modern M+ design with randoms. Challengers Peril is.. terrile design, imo.

It's creating even more friction.

[alpine wraith]

the whole depleting and lowering 1 key lvl is a bit outdated

i would not mind retrying dungeons

like ah shit we messed this one up how about go again

if key was same lvl

etc

[keen dome]

I still think about Zac's idea for M+. Where you just get to play the content until you beat it. Wanna do a +11? Time it on +10. No keystones, etc. Just play game.

[woeful egret]

Blizzard: You know what would make the community more toxic for 5 man group content? Extremely punishing mechanics that make the group fall apart from a single mistake because we are also adding in near one shot mechanics!

[soft summit]

Have mythic raid gear drop in heroic raid.

Have mythic raid drop unique mounts and titles and special weapon and armor effects

You’ll see a huge upswing in player engagement. People will enjoy the game more too and once not so good players get fully mythic geared out, guilds will try the mythic version for those titles, mounts and weapon effects

[azure thicket]

it's kinda nice having finite game though

[keen dome]

FF14 Ultimates. 😄

[pliant topaz]

i agree with this. i think its healthier but it does sometimes feel weirdly gatekept.

not sure if theres a good solution for it

[regal stag]

there's an issue almost no one will talk about (and it's natural i believe) it's the language barrier. EU side, finding a raid means being sure you will understand your teammates. For instance, as a french, i'll have a hard time playing with german players or russian/whatever. It does not help with the whole raiding schtick.

[azure thicket]

cata p1 was also mean af to healers if anyone remembers this boss https://www.wowhead.com/npc=43296/chimaeron

[vale pine]

you get mythic crests on the last 2 bosses

so there is that

[woeful egret]

You figured they would have learned from the cata dungeon difficulty backlash

[keen dome]

I'd say the majoriy of raid groups just use common lingua franca though.

[alpine wraith]

eu is not that big a place for wow if you dont speak or understand english yea

[keen dome]

Really does have to be said how good a change this is.

[woeful egret]

the crazy thing is that it's not actually super difficult AS LONG AS everyone in the group is well informed. Once you get 10+ and beyond all that stuff gets wild

[regal stag]

i do understand english, but more as a written language than a spoken one. I'm far from being the only one. That's a "me" issue, i agree. But that's an issue nonetheless (albeit a small one)

[alpine wraith]

no dont worry

[keen dome]

Yeah - I get you.

[alpine wraith]

70% of spanish people dont even read english

[woeful egret]

me being the scrub I am have only completed 8 as my highest and it was one of the easiest seige runs I've done because everyone knew what to do

[alpine wraith]

i played on those servers

it is kind of a bubble

[keen dome]

I actually hate raiding with voice comm. I much prefer doing everything in text chat which I find is easier for language barriers in general.

No accents, haha. No fast talking.

[vale pine]

i don't think it solves the problems for m+

[woeful egret]

that one jerk with open mic and too much gain

[vale pine]

but them adding mythic crests to last 2 bosses

and to 8s

was def. a improvement

[keen dome]

Yeah, it doesn't. But it's just a good change in general.

Like, I point at it and go "More of this please" whatever 'more' of that kind of design is, I don't know.

[regal stag]

i'm fine with listeing and writing, though. It's more than enough to me (prefer righting, but that's the old way i believe).

[vale pine]

idk it feels like intentionally poorly designed

[woeful egret]

by the time they made that change, most of the people I was running with got burnt out and are playing classic hardcore lol

[keen dome]

Ye. I lead Heroic pug raids every week and I couldn't imagine doing it via voice. It'd suck a lot.

[woeful egret]

I wonder if blizz is gonna sell crests in the store now, it's the only thing that makes sense at this point

[keen dome]

Really? It felt like a natural, good design shift in response to feedback from DF imo.

[uneven scarab]

Remember when they did polls for s4 tier sets can we get more of that

[soft summit]

Thanks!

[woeful egret]

12 crests per completed dungeon is stupid, why tf would you do 12? at least make it 15 so you can get 1 upgrade per run

[vale pine]

wow rly has this cycle of:

• release something not well thought out
• go a tiny bit back on it, but don't solve it
  • BLIZZ BEST
• go a bit more back on it, but still not ideal
  • WOW BEST GAME EVER, HOW DID I EVER DOUBT THE COMPANY, GAME SOO GOOD

[keen dome]

Hahaha, yeah, very true

you are right

[vale pine]

and this is every patch ever

the 20 year event is the same

[woeful egret]

So what you're saying is quit until last patch to get a good game experience?

[vale pine]

and its completely optinal content

[edgy zenith]

why are people playing trickster on Ky'veza?

[regal stag]

true enough. spent 20 years loathing and loving the game at the same time !

[vale pine]

yes, but you get fucked by:

• bad catchup systems
• people in game having experience about the system
• guilds typically not searching for new palyers

[uneven scarab]

i played it on every fight, just feels smooth

[keen dome]

Yeah

[woeful egret]

I guess that's kind of what I do already. I play the last patch, enjoy the next expac popping off, quit afte s1 rinse and repeat

[uneven scarab]

Ds not fun