subtlety

[oak portal]

is that no a "no it doesnt matter"

or is "yes it does matter"

[vale pine]

both is fine

dance-finish

dance-strike

if you do the 2nd

make sure to be on low c

cp

[grizzled jungle]

im having a hard time deciding what im gonna play for prog and if there is a reason so many people playing sub i dont see it being that dominant if you know what i mean

[vale pine]

so you don't want to dance on lets say 3 cp

but 0 or 1 is fine

[grizzled jungle]

i feel its kinda close

[vale pine]

6+ is fine too

[oak portal]

oh

[vale pine]

hope that makes sense

[oak portal]

yes its perfect thank you so much

[vale pine]

sub is the least played dps spec in the game, so yes

[onyx skiff]

fuu do you know if there's any set logic on how many seconds before Flag/Blades that we start to 'sit' on Dance/Symbols and let charges pool?

[grizzled jungle]

like with dust i understand

[vale pine]

its def. not dominant

but it is good on silken and queen

so you can play it

it just comes down if you want to rather play assassiantion

which is currently extremely strong

[grizzled jungle]

i played sub in the beginning but my gear seems kinda wack compared to everyone else and my assa is like bis imo

idk

[vale pine]

if you have better assassiantion geart

*gear

play assassiantion

[oak portal]

yeah but sub is more fun

[bleak wind]

speaking of which, why are sims only doing that with trickster

[vale pine]

deathstalker has more problems with cdr on secret

it is actually quite annoying

[alpine wraith]

yes as trickster there may even be some more optimizations with using secret more liberally

thx to coup cdr and charger

[nimble burrow]

uh i have a little question? like we drink chaos but no Mastery or Vers?

[alpine wraith]

if you drink that one pot gives 4 stats

instead of 3

[vale pine]

vers is about on par to it

its 0.1% ahead

so its default

but feel free to use vers flask instead

[bleak wind]

I mean like the sim is gonna do something like SoD->Evis->Dance->Strike instead of SoD->Dance->Evis->Strike

[nimble burrow]

i see, ty fuu, my Vers is very low, so i just take vers

my crit vers and mastery almost equal

[sly shore]

alchemical chaos also gives more flat stat

[alpine wraith]

and any time you lose crit or haste

we dont care as much

[thick temple]

I understand the TC thread by Eleem is a constant WIP, but I don't see the rotation beyond the opener there anymore. Is this being reworked? Still figuring out when to use Dance/SoD or just empty SoD after the opener. My best understanding is to lineup at least 2 Dances and 2 SoDs before I flag/blades again.

[lilac stag]

Wowhead guide has visuals for when

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Oxi

[thick temple]

oh nice ill check it out.

[alpine wraith]

i also have a fast one i did yday but there are some things i want to kinda make sure are wins that i have seen be

CB usage is a bit sus

also coup cdr to sec tech too is a big one at least for aoe/cleave situations

[vale pine]

basically

think of it like this

secret technique is now the center of attention

so you align symbols/dance/etc to it

so you e.g. after opener will use symbols again with secret cd either very low so you can use it as 2nd finisher or immidiatly

[thick temple]

Following that general rule, would it be safe to assume I'd still have sufficient resources when I have my flag/blades up again?

[vale pine]

you don't want to use symbols too close to flag/blades

obv.

[grizzled jungle]

is it worth to macro sod to secrec?

[vale pine]

no

you can possibly macro it to dance

[thick temple]

Do you mind sending the picture? I'm looking at the rotation section in wowhead but I only see a visual timeline of the opener.

[vale pine]

but have a solo bind still

[grizzled jungle]

yeah i have solo bind also

[vale pine]

because you want to sometimes secret during symbols without dance

also make sure

your out of dance secret

has no cold blood bound

[grizzled jungle]

hmm alright

[oak portal]

oh no then should i not macro secret tech to cold blood

[vale pine]

you still can

just not outside of dance

so on your "non stealth"

[merry agate]

Never solo dance sectec without SoD?

Sometimes on Dummy that situation arose🤔

[vale pine]

just put regular secret

and on the stealthed one

[turbid depot]

yo guys, why some people choose to play sub instead of assa in last bosses? ky'veza, council and queen?

[vale pine]

put with

[alpine wraith]

you still sec tech on skip dances with SoD

[alpine wraith]

more defensives and because they want

[vale pine]

you can in theory macro blades to secret

[alpine wraith]

dps is whatever if you're ded

[vale pine]

and transmitter to flag

if you want to reduce your key count

[turbid depot]

got it, i dont really knows much about whats the best specialization for each encouter etc

[oak portal]

i put my secret on a bar thats not stealth changed

[alpine wraith]

sub is not the super best but there are arguments to play it

[oak portal]

guess an extra keybind to get used to

[vale pine]

just play assassiantion everywhere, can't go wrong

[alpine wraith]

there is a reason we have 20 times less the players than assa

[vale pine]

you don't need a extra keybind

because you can keep using the macro

just make sure to only have it on your stealth bar

[turbid depot]

okie i just want to know why sub is played in these fights tho

[vale pine]

because its good

[turbid depot]

i feel like sub is too hard for my brain

[vale pine]

and people like it

[turbid depot]

ngl

[vale pine]

depends what you played before

but yes subtlety is one of the harder specs

[turbid depot]

disc / holy priest, 2 weeks ago i needed to play rogue cuz we didnt had one

[uncut bloom]

Tried a sub key, felt great - damage wasn’t horrible. Was only a 10 tho

[thick temple]

fuu for the advice you gave me a minute ago, would the "center of attention is SecTec" attitude be applied to single target raid with deathstalker?

[oak portal]

yeah so i have ST on an action bar that doesn't change with stealth hence the extra keybind

[weary saffron]

id enjoy m+ more if replicating shadows could please get fixed....

[oak portal]

TY for the advice

[sinful sluice]

is trickster coup also bugged?

[alpine wraith]

DS is a bit more annoying and yes

you would just skip more sec techs

basically sometimes the 60s one

and for cds after 1:30 the 2 min one and the almost 3 min one

[vale pine]

healers have a lot of moving parts, but i would say just give yourself time

and ask questions

^^

[alpine wraith]

have to look well with cdr

[vale pine]

asking is the best way to learn, once you have a baseline understanding

(and practice, practice is also important)

[turbid depot]

yeaaah i'm just a lil lost cuz i never really put much efort learning sub, since we just killed ovinax yesterday and some people asked if i was going to play assa or sub i waas a lil confused why would i play sub idk what it does better than assa

[turbid depot]

1000000%

[alpine wraith]

we are quite good on ky veza in general

as you can cloak queensbane

1 sec cloak tho

[vale pine]

assassiantion is easier, so can just stick to it

[sonic elm]

Trying to learn assa when I've played sub since TBC is wrecking my brain.

[turbid depot]

why we are quite good? what we do?

[turbid depot]

lol no way

[brazen talon]

same xD this bleed opener garotte rupture rupture garotte feels wired xD

[turbid depot]

yeaaah prob will learn sub in the future tho

[vale pine]

take your time

i think the current iteration is more fun than i assumed it would be

[turbid depot]

ngl reset / cdr stuff is a lil confusing to me

[vale pine]

after playing for it longer

it is because there is no fixed timeline

no

"do this 10 sec in fight every time"

[turbid depot]

yuppppppp

the opener itself changes based on the points u gain or something

[sonic elm]

The thing that I'm trying to learn about assa is what they do between cds. Do I just watch uptime on bleeds and envenom

and just chill

Brain is too used to just mashing buttons.

[turbid depot]

yea

thats what i do lol

[coarse nexus]

im simming within 100k as sub vs assa with basically no vers - dungeon slice

is that normal?

[vale pine]

its fairly static

because you get max cp reguardless

only thing that can change is

more finishers because of additional cp refunds

[sonic elm]

I miss the shotgun sound of the WA while playing assa :D

[grizzled jungle]

idk feel like im getting more clueless xd, havent played wow since bfa but u do 2x dances and sod in opener then 1 dance+sod and one sod+sectec then cds again?

[alpine wraith]

there is a part around 1 min where you send SoD and sec tech with no dance

[grizzled jungle]

ye like i said

[alpine wraith]

but yea that is fine on the first 1:30 min

[grizzled jungle]

only hitting dummy now and no raid scenario

[rain smelt]

Is the opener in DS and Trickster now the same? Cant find different openers on the Wowhead rotation site

[grizzled jungle]

but i have like 10 s before flag and sb with 2x dances waiting

[alpine wraith]

afterwards you skip dance and send sec tech+sod then dance`+SoD+CB+sec tech

then skip dance again

yea that happens

[grizzled jungle]

ok

[alpine wraith]

there is that leewat

[grizzled jungle]

alright got it now thanks

hitting dummy in dorno is kinda aids tho, input lag during dances and gotta wait to register xd

[hazy breach]

Go to stormwind or orgrimmar instead

[alpine wraith]

i had trouble on ovi nax too

depending on server it is going crapper mode

another grey log to my collection

[hazy breach]

#1271971289396936735 message

[grizzled jungle]

is this gear cooked or fine? too much crit or

before i had like 18k vers 15k mas

[hazy breach]

It doesnt really matter much

[alpine wraith]

yea agi is king

you can bother with stats when you are 638

[gritty knot]

Can someone explain to me why sub is suddenly much better in m+? I mean supercharger is Not rlly relevant or not? So what is it that we perform much better now?

[grizzled jungle]

alright true

[alpine wraith]

better way to do dmg more frontloaded

[grizzled jungle]

we extending so no more gear for a while:((

[alpine wraith]

and more often

also if played correctly supercharger and first dance add a lot of value over the dungeon depending on which one it is

[vale pine]

nice update with the examples

[hazy breach]

It essentially playing old dB (which imo was already better in keys) with 30s reduced cd on blades

But also being able to store symbols allows for more flexibility with dance usage

Supercharger is better than tea too

[tepid trellis]

supercharger is goated

seeing 18 sec cd on sectech and you have a supercharged coup rdy

bonk

off cd

[vale pine]

supercharges so nice

[clever delta]

I can't believe that they still did not fix coup bug

Fucking blizzard

[gritty knot]

Okay thx everyone for the explanations 🙂

[alpine wraith]

yea coup cdr is so good for sec tech

think you always sec tech first in dance

it helps a lot on the off dance sec techs to come earlier too

[gritty knot]

So i know some of u are playing higher keys like+12 and +13. Is that possible now as sub? I would love to leave fkn assa behind finally and blast as sub again...

[keen dome]

Tried to do a +8 Ara-Kara and got the worlds most aggresive, angry and bad tank. EVERY MOB AT ONCE. ALL THE TIME. Non-stop wipes, lmao

I wish tanks would calm the hell down when they aren't very good

[tepid trellis]

all gas no breaks

[keen dome]

0-100 in 3 seconds. 100 is a wipe.

[tribal blade]

about to start kyveza prog, question

can you be targeted by phase blades twice in a row

like on 1 set, then the set after

[near rivet]

yea

[tribal blade]

cool

[near rivet]

by the phase blades you mean intermission, right?

[tribal blade]

nah the blades coming out the adds

that you need to run to hit other adds

[near rivet]

daggers?

oh, the charge

[tribal blade]

mm mb i might have mixed up mechanics

yeah the charge

[near rivet]

you dont have to hit the other adds

[tribal blade]

i mispoke on that too true

[near rivet]

99% chance you will have a designsted mark to stand (1st charge) and them opposite side of the room, so the charge goes exactly through the middle

its a tank job to place boss in correct spot

as for your question goes

i think its possible, but its kinda rare

[tribal blade]

yeah we're doing the echo strat

[near rivet]

like (0.16 * 0.16)% chance

[tribal blade]

so first charge goes clockwise 2 adds over

and then 2nd charge goes down boss

[near rivet]

yea

[tribal blade]

so on the 2nd charge through boss

you need to run your line down past the add on the other end right

[near rivet]

yea, behind the add if its there

[tribal blade]

seems like a long way

[near rivet]

you should have a windrush

[tribal blade]

ok cool

or save sprint for that moment

[vestal escarp]

Never got a double target in p1

[near rivet]

with sprint, i have usually a 2-3 seconds of free time

[tribal blade]

you never got back to back?

[vestal escarp]

Might have to do with raid comp and caster ratio

Tho

[near rivet]

i cant recall if i had 2 in a row too

[hollow patio]

Is there a macro to sectect+cb based on stealth/non stealth?

[vestal escarp]

Mhmh

[tribal blade]

that's very interesting

[clever delta]

im down to try sub in keys, what was the build?

[vestal escarp]

Raid with improved storm maybe

[near rivet]

take note, that sometimes you might get 2 charges at once

and its a bug

[tribal blade]

oh shit that's cursed

[clever delta]

so no db?

[vestal escarp]

You can burn your cos for second charge and not get queensbane

[tribal blade]

what do you do if you get 2 charges at once

[near rivet]

so 2 charges back to back doesnt sound that bad

wipe

its like 1/1000 chance

[clever delta]

graham what you play in keys

[vestal escarp]

This

[near rivet]

i think its more common if people use feint death or invis

[vestal escarp]

And then yolo intermission

[near rivet]

intermission is kinda chill tbh

[vestal escarp]

It's not common to get 2 dashes in p1

[alpine wraith]

you can 1 sec cloak one ideally the first one

because the other one is quite easy you just go behind the one on the other side and when you get hit just move to the side a bit to drop the balls

[near rivet]

he meant at once

[alpine wraith]

you cant get 2 queensbanes at once

[tribal blade]

i'm playing sin right now

i'm gonna try sub at some point, maybe next week when my ele gets back into town and i know he can cover monster dps

[vestal escarp]

You cant get 2 dashes

[lilac stag]

🐔

[tribal blade]

I AM A CHICKEN

i'm just sticking with sin for now because it's easier to get invites

i don't think people know about sub yet

[lilac stag]

hah swap in the dungeon

[near rivet]

i heard that outlaw is easier to get invites

[tribal blade]

maybe for something like mists 😉

[near rivet]

kek

[tribal blade]

i hope all those people get shot by blizz

[lilac stag]

bug abusing specs easier to get invites

wowhead says we hav no bugs

gg

[tribal blade]

i'm morally and ethically outraged

[lilac stag]

i just hate keys

so i cant be arsed getting upset

every season some asshat combo or bug inflates io

[hollow atlas]

wdym, keys are awesome! 30-50 declines, get invited, mage leaves mid-run

[tribal blade]

this is a pretty bad one

this is one of those that blizz needs to take action against

[lilac stag]

i just want to farm my crests. at this point i dont even have the energy for vault fills

at least I can stop farming GB

[alpine wraith]

i still try to get the full vault

[short radish]

mates guild killed ovinax - i looked at logs and saw the outlaw rogue low on damage

so i was like

wow nice your outlaw rogue didnt bug abuse

then i looked at his casts

[tribal blade]

oh no

[lilac stag]

haha

[desert panther]

Casualaddict about to do 14 dawn as sub

[keen dome]

I believe in Sub power

[tribal blade]

dawn is a chill timer

[lilac stag]

kush still running assa. smh my head

[tribal blade]

OR he's just carrying the damage as sub

[alpine wraith]

dawn is quite good for first dance

[lilac stag]

just deleted all of my deathstalker loadouts. thank you baby jesus

[tribal blade]

holy jesus the burst

[lilac stag]

haha addict smiling while dpsing

[desert panther]

639 transmitter really shines there lol

[lilac stag]

and aug

[tribal blade]

oh he has an aug

oh ok i didn't notice aug

that changes things quite a bit

but still the burst is very nice

so thing is if you play sub you absolutely need a sham in your group, or else it's just misery

[keen dome]

Yeah, makes sense

[keen trellis]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[tribal blade]

alright i might give sub a shot sooner, this looks really promising

[near rivet]

sub the sleeper spec

as it should be

[keen dome]

I'm going to try it in some (lower) keys today if I can 'cos I want to play it.

[tribal blade]

i might run my 12 DB i have as sub tomorrow

just need to sit on the target dummies for a little to make sure i'm not inting the rotation

[lilac stag]

idk if you even need shaman, nice sure, but I think stuff is going to be melting better either way

[vale pine]

tuning is better

[clever delta]

sub rotattion is fine but the opener is giga cringe

[vale pine]

aoe is a bit lacking compared to the op

[clever delta]

sending low cp evis and rupture

[vale pine]

what about it ?

[hazy breach]

What

[vale pine]

you play premed

you send full cp

evis rupture

[clever delta]

hm my build dont have premed

[hazy breach]

They should both be 10 cp

[clever delta]

thats maybe it

i did not actually check talents

[lilac stag]

lol

[clever delta]

i just clicked in the missing ones

oh dfropping PE look huge tho

[hazy breach]

I feel like sub is a fine spec now, does decent. But assa is just cracked and one of the few specs that can compete with ele on overall

Esp now that ele got nerfed

[tribal blade]

i've gotten the hang of sin so i'm enjoying it, but one of the big things is being able to not play deathstalker with mark is just so much nicer

also if ST dam is needed

i just honestly cannot stand playing around mark as DS, i find it miserable

but i will suffer for io 😉

[livid olive]

Is there a sheet for all the known bugs affecting sub somewhere?

[clever delta]

man that premed was fucking with my brain i was hitting dummy yt for like hour 😄

[tribal blade]

"i like it, very nice changes"- casual

[tribal blade]

lol interesting

btw does this put sub in a weird spot where you absolutely must take the symbols talent

like you cannot play without it now

[hazy breach]

Not sure which one you mean, but no

[tribal blade]

mb death perception

[lilac stag]

back to assa, close stream

[tribal blade]

maybe i didn't word that right, sub plays much better with multiple symbols charges

[clever delta]

guys

do we still send coup first in dance?

[hazy breach]

Its not too bad without it either

[clever delta]

or always sectech

[hazy breach]

The first point of depth perception is decent, the second kinda sucks

But rotten is very very strong, so it doesnt matter still worth taking

[placid crown]

Roccor boss in classic raid

[hazy breach]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e2w0iHBCVp8K7hdSk1T8RKtUK9lr4FsRqFWd68FCQnk/pubhtml?gid=579089422&single=true

[placid crown]

i'm 626 with a 619 weapon, deathstalker

[still quartz]

I just got the bug accidentally and down the boss 😦

i was wondering why sd comes out of cd so fast

[hazy breach]

Probably should edit it to mention shadow damage getting reduced by armor from nimble, hmm

[livid olive]

My hero

[near rivet]

merging damage of SB, shadowed finishers and SecTec would fix like half of the bugs instantly

[clever delta]

is the current apl in raid bot good or we get some custom again?

[hazy breach]

Just default

No need for custom

[clever delta]

this trinket is sus close

[hazy breach]

I assume thats for trickster

[clever delta]

yeye

[hazy breach]

But ye its fine

[clever delta]

well you guys said its better to play trisckter

[hazy breach]

since you probably have 0 crit

Ye

[clever delta]

22%

[livid olive]

Whose sheet is this btw @hazy breach ?

[hazy breach]

Mine

[tribal blade]

LOL the prot pally killed casual

[livid olive]

ah okay tyvm

[tribal blade]

yikes

[near rivet]

with all these changes we still play vers >= mastery >>> w/e, right?

[alpine wraith]

knda yes

[near rivet]

trickster should like crit more i guess

[alpine wraith]

nope

it is almost the same

[hazy breach]

Its not that trickster really wants crit

Its that it doesnt absolutely hate crit. Darkest night makes crit very non-important

[near rivet]

it should be A BIT better though

[hazy breach]

Like for trickster queen ring is worth by a small margin for example

[near rivet]

trick also have crit dmg amp, right?

[hazy breach]

But more than that nah

[tribal blade]

you get guaranteed crits with rotten

and also CB

any time a spec has ways to guarantee crits, crit as a stat tends to fall off in importance

[near rivet]

they exists on both hero builds thou, i meant the differences

meanwhile MM scaling crit dmg from crit chance

[clever delta]

im gonna send sub on heroic tonight to see whats up

as im considering playing it for court

[trim ridge]

whats a good overall as a subrogue for dungeon?

[copper horizon]

Guys anyone know why this macro stop working ?
#showtooltip
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shadowstrike

Its say I must be in stealth to use, was working just fine

[near rivet]

prob lags

[alpine wraith]

yea just saw that a bit funny

[hazy breach]

Thought they broke those macros last patch (not intentionally)

[alpine wraith]

just let me kill M ansurek

[hazy breach]

taking it over something else like a fdk is psychotic though, pretty much need to be from vault tbh

[near rivet]

guuuuys, as assa rogue i have this bugged talent, and it amps the nature dmg proc, 100% rogue prio

[alpine wraith]

yea think that one is a next expansion angle for us kinda

hunters dks dh lots of casters

meanwhile we get like 0.x% kekw

i also have crafted and BoE ring so

think those will stay there

[alpine wraith]

like eleem said that one got krangled

[copper horizon]

Ok, thanks

[hazy breach]

For assa its fine to take over other people, the stats are good

I was just talking about sub specifically

[clever delta]

hope they aura buff us

more i play more i enjoy this

[near rivet]

fabled tuning inc

[placid elk]

tell that to my tank

[mystic bough]

Does the blackrock depths raid change any of our BIS items?

[clever delta]

the build from pins dont even have first dance

[hazy breach]

You dont really need to wait for it

If it happens great, if not then

Its not a massive deal

[alpine wraith]

yea keep in mind our other talents are so bad

[merry agate]

trinkets on bloodmallet kinda sus guys?

[alpine wraith]

getting 1 proc in FIVE MINUTS

is decent

for st for aoe it is even better

[clever delta]

guys with the supercharger

we kinda delay second symbols

to have it for sectech right

instead of pandemic right away

[alpine wraith]

if you are trickster you can charge usually sec tech and coup

if DS it is more dicey

[hazy breach]

It kinda lines up well naturallly

[alpine wraith]

sec tech comes a bit later

[hazy breach]

In the burst

[clever delta]

thats the point of delay of blades right

so we can fit non dance finisher in between dances

[alpine wraith]

well we delay blades because of premed and not affecting sec tech kinda

[clever delta]

to hjave sectech at start?

[hazy breach]

With premed theres no reason to blades earlier

[keen dome]

1.3m overall in a +6 NW as Sub. Screw Assa I'm a Sub rogue again

It felt so good to play

[steel heart]

Are sims correct for dungeon slice?

[alpine wraith]

sims are not meant to indicate dps of a dungeon

use them for gear

[keen dome]

Hitting 4m+ burst on bosses is just chefs kiss

[spark tusk]

How are the vibes? Armin told me they're neato

[iron fjord]

huh what's going on there?

[spark tusk]

with the patch

[sinful sluice]

Should i just use exploit? Seems like everyone is abusing them…looks so fun

[keen dome]

IT FEELS SO GOOD

[silent ruin]

Does trickster sub grant raid zero parry buff?

[keen dome]

It plays so smooth, a bit weird sometimes. But it just.. works. And blasts. Superhcarge SecTec 14m hits

[hazy breach]

Its not parsing new talents correctly. So its simming profiles with no talents

And if you have no talents and do no damage, then obviously trinkets like mandate are good

[spark tusk]

Very cool I still need to learn how to play with the changes barely had time to read up on rotation stuff

[iron fjord]

yeah 70% seems kinda off

is there a consensus on how to send sd and sod now? Do we send naked SoD?

[hazy breach]

#1271971289396936735 message

Making sure you have 2 for burst but otherwise around sectech

[tribal blade]

no only you

[hazy breach]

Pretty sure its raidwide

[tribal blade]

oh is it? i had no idea

[near rivet]

wut

[tribal blade]

that's actually insane if it's raid wide

[hazy breach]

Its not really that insane

[cinder axle]

Hi is there any guide for sub you would recommend? Playstyle is new with 11.0.5 and i have no idea what to do xD

[near rivet]

tooltip says that Fazed enemies cannot parry your attacks

[tribal blade]

maybe insane isn't the right word, but it might be worth running trickster sub depending on the boss

just for that

[hazy breach]

!guides and #1271971289396936735

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Oxi

[clever delta]

gonna grief soemone key as sub

cant wait

[near rivet]

i mean, the amounts of screams i hear from my warrior that his smash got parried

it would justify sub easily

[spark tusk]

wait wuh

[hazy breach]

Presumably not intentionally

But i just checked our ansurek prog logs from yesterday and the only times people got parried was when fazed wasnt up on the target

So im assuming it still works

[cinder axle]

thank you i normaly play assa but i kinda get bored and want to try sub. Is the dmg anyway near assa?

[tribal blade]

lol this exact same thing happens to my warr

[hazy breach]

For raids ye sub is really good

[merry agate]

first m+ with new sub pathing thru the tree looks whack but lets give it a spin

[hazy breach]

For keys assa is probably the best spec in the entire game (besides outlaw exploiting)

But sub is decent'

[near rivet]

it also hurts when boss parries your kingsbane

and the new bug came up with the reset i think

[tribal blade]

oh that makes a lot of sense now

[vestal escarp]

the parries are getting out of hands

[near rivet]

your evi/envenom with DN up that got parried consumes DN buff

[vestal escarp]

like i cant even complain to tanks cause they're girlies

[near rivet]

need to double check later

[hazy breach]

Yep

[vestal escarp]

sometimes it clears dn and leaves you with no marks up

[floral folio]

boss finally using their accurate lore power against PCs

https://tenor.com/view/paladin-eso-nameless-knight-knight-gif-9219138368041550059

[vestal escarp]

got a kb parried at ovinax yesterday

and sikran parried my DM

[tribal blade]

yeah this bs of losing your mark is making me want to lose my mind

they need to make it possible to apply mark with backstab/mutilate

[hazy breach]

Idk i didnt really experience when i played keys yesterday

[tribal blade]

i think it might possibly happen to me more because i play with ~200 ms

[hazy breach]

Obv when bosses die you lose it, but thats been the case forever, nothing new appeared that i could notice

[trim ridge]

i'm having too much fun palying sub in keys now

somethings wrong...

[tribal blade]

it seems like i get the worst end of these kinds of glitches

and i can only assume it's because of my ms

like i had the premed bug really bad for a long ass time

[floral folio]

SSSHHHHH not too loud, you want blizz to hear you ?

[tribal blade]

even when it stopped happening for everyone else

[tribal blade]

lol they ain't gonna nerf it, it's not OP at all

[trim ridge]

ikr i feel like fun will get nerfed somehow even if isnt strong

[floral folio]

you got too much trust over blizzard

[tribal blade]

i would be shocked if they nerfed sub

[vernal drum]

@mystic bough nothing better than top 3

[floral folio]

When it come to music and art, I'll give them my soul, when it come to shit balance or weird design choice, I trust them again

[vernal drum]

bloodmallet is HS ?

lol

[trim ridge]

hs?

[tribal blade]

i have a feeling they're happy with where sub is now

most likely

because it's not overperforming and now not underperforming

[trim ridge]

probably since we are happier ourselves

[vernal drum]

out of service

[tribal blade]

but i dunno blizz's tuning has been extremely questionable recently

[trim ridge]

its wierd that sin has been strong for the whole expansion and still recieves buffs

[tribal blade]

like, mindblowing in some instances

[trim ridge]

usually when rogue performs it gets shafted

[tribal blade]

true good point

[tepid trellis]

sub can do quite decent overall now

[trim ridge]

holy shiy u guys deal big damage

i dont get more than 1.5M on overall

[trim ridge]

ig i'm just abd

[high isle]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[trim ridge]

i usually dont die at all lol

guess i have to improve!

each dungeon i'm getting better overalls

just a question of time

[tepid trellis]

and then you get a dmg amp boss and you get sectech crits like these

its quite nice

[trim ridge]

what the fuck

4 million sectech

is that with aug or what

[tepid trellis]

nope

just a dmg amp boss

a lil 30mil sectech in one cast

[trim ridge]

LMAO

[tepid trellis]

yep

[trim ridge]

oh true

havent done tirna scythe in a while

will try

[near rivet]

@hazy breach bro

if the parry thing is raid wide

could it be that this 5% dmg amp paired with it is raid wide too?

[vernal drum]

https://www.wowhead.com/item=222463/siphoning-stiletto

Why is it bad ?

[hazy breach]

No

[hazy breach]

It does a low amount of damage to a random target

[vernal drum]

but it should be a BIS

since its unique

and consume an enjolivement

[hazy breach]

it sucks

[vernal drum]

but raidbot said its like 0.5% less dmg than double lens

[hazy breach]

Ye all embellishments suck

This one just sucks a bit more

[near rivet]

also you have fixed stats

[vernal drum]

but stats are fine

na ?

mast is great

[hazy breach]

Ye mist stinks

its shadowmoon burial grounds all over again

Nop

[pearl furnace]

Hi all, do you know where can I find some old PvE guide through Web Archive or similar site about subtlety for season 3 Dragonflight? Icy veins, Wowhead etc are updated to TWW
Thanks, i would appreciate 👍

[clever delta]

not so hot

full struggle 😄

[cinder axle]

when do i use black powder as a spender?

[idle cipher]

Is assassination still alot better than sub for m+?

[lilac stag]

No

Better yes

[iron spear]

"not so hot" compared to what? Dmg you expected, sim'ed for or would do as sin?

[merry agate]

dont use tornado in SD i guess? shadow striking is better?

[lilac stag]

tornado a filler basically to get cdr back

you can run without it as well

[keen dome]

I've running without it but using it as filler a good idea.

[clever delta]

Well basically I played bad and yeah compared to sin like 400-600k lower

[keen dome]

Still top DPS though

[clever delta]

Yeah but dk was green and pala noob

[lilac stag]

625… 612… 631

[keen dome]

You gapped the Ret so it's a victory for Subs.

[wet echo]

what build are you running with atm? @tepid trellis ?

[clever delta]

In burst I'm doing more than assa but between the burst there is no dmg really

Meanwhile assa pump all.the time

[cold plover]

When leveling as sub rogue how hard is it since cant play outlaw due to carpal tunnel

[iron spear]

You think, that you could "fix that", if you know the exact timings for your cd's for all the thrash pulls?

[mental comet]

sin doing 4-8mil every pull with only a restealth

[iron spear]

Hard to play or hard for your carpal tunnel?

[cold plover]

What about dracthyr rogue

[mental comet]

what about it

[merry agate]

imagine 3x jumping for transmitter with hover

[iron spear]

transmitter a hate love relationship

[cold plover]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SjznEQENBg

[hazy breach]

Dracthyr very mid

[iron spear]

did they not remove on of them

like one of them became evoker basline and not dracthyr, if Im not wrong

[iron spear]

also, there is a leveling section on the wowhead guide. Sub suffers during leveling from the problem all specs have. Its incomplete and only truly works, when you have all the relevant ability's. But Sub during leveling is not "hard", but also not "a super great experience" like some other specs who come online early.

But if you are asking "hard" in regards to your carpal tunnel....eh, probably not that great, like there are worse specs but also tones of specs that are better probably.

But I dont have carpal tunnel so cant say for sure, at the end of the day you have to know that

[vestal escarp]

nah bruh

in eu there's a group for a 12 thats is explicitly asking for a bugabusing outlul rog

[hazy breach]

Its actually wild that not even a big wowhead post detailing the exploit gets it insta fixed

[trim ridge]

Ppl will get banned

[hoary sun]

You guys send a naked sod in m+ too? Feels very awkward holding on some packs

[trim ridge]

I feel bad sending naked sods

[hoary sun]

Yeah but feels equally bad to not have 2 dances and shit for flag and blades

[silent ruin]

Is premeditation bugged?

[vale pine]

Not to my knowlege

[silent ruin]

Tried on dummy 20 times, the shadow strike doesn't register, n when it does gives 1-2 cp

[alpine wraith]

if you take dmg you get taken out of vanish and premed does not work

if you do anything but strike after vanish you also dont get effect if you do it too fast

[sinful sluice]

Wow sub rn feels so good both in raids and m+

[silent ruin]

Same thing on mobs while skinning

[sinful sluice]

Can get decent 1.7m+ on mythic now

Before patch it was 1.1m

[mental comet]

[vale pine]

Sub is a lot more intuitive

Even tho not nessecery easuer

[silent ruin]

Does ethereal cloak give flensing knives to sub as well?

[hazy breach]

yes

[vestal escarp]

still very icky getting a full hold for 30s

esp in keys where timers are not rigid

[civic orbit]

not sure if anyone asked yet but what the fuck is that bloodmallet trinket sim for sub

[mental comet]

what do u hold for 30s

[civic orbit]

surely it's not correct and there's a bug, right?

[silent ruin]

What do we do with skardyn 2 min cd? Dump the trinket?

[mental comet]

bloodmallet is meme

[hazy breach]

It doesnt parse the new talents

So its simming with no talents

Aka its doing like 140k dps

[thick cedar]

Is transmitter dead or is blood mallet for of shit?

[hazy breach]

So +80k from mandate (because it doesnt matter for mandate what else you do in your rotation) shows up as insane

[civic orbit]

ok that makes sense

I was assuming transmitter is definitely the best option

especially with CDs just being a flat 1.5 now

[hazy breach]

Transmitter is the only trinket that matters

Outside of that you can use mandate/void reaper/dead-eye/ritual knife/whatever sims decent

[civic orbit]

I meant transmitter but seeing mandate made me derp

yeah

[hazy breach]

Theyre all equally mid

[civic orbit]

ok that makes sense lmao

[steel horizon]

is scroll of momentum sim bait with the movement speed thing? i still havent replaced mine because the only thing that sims higher for me is mandate. (already have transmitter in my 1st slot)

[vale pine]

The shadow damage amp after blades works on items

So technically bug

[civic orbit]

I was more referring to how all the on use trinkets aside from mandate are at the bottom

[hazy breach]

Its not that

[civic orbit]

mandate being high is unsurprising

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message
This fuu is why mandate looks so good on bloodmallet

[vale pine]

Oh didn't think of that

Good point

[merry agate]

people still thinking "ROGUE OP CONTROL! ALL THE CCS!" yeah ofc

[gilded ferry]

the bad thing about this bug is not knowing correctly how the statistics in WCL are for the specs

[near rivet]

took 2 random Sikran logs, who really likes to parry ppl, one had trickster sub in and other had DS sub

there might be something to it

[hazy breach]

The spelldata for fazed specifies that the damage is for the rogue

But the parry reduction does not have that flag

So its just for everybody hitting the mob with fazed up

[weary kite]

So if sub faze’s the boss it reduces parry chance for all of melee?

[merry agate]

wat what....we finally have raid support 😄

aside atrophic :p

[hazy breach]

Its been this way for all of tww

It just doesnt matter much

[mental comet]

if u hit boss from behind it turns out it cant parry

[left ledge]

thats the biggest raid buff ive seen in my life

i think i have to play sub rogue forever now

[weary kite]

You don’t always have access to the back man

[thick cedar]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1gawoqe/how_in_the_hell_was_this_bug_found_i_refuse_to/ Anyone seen this?

[mental comet]

should most of the time

[narrow shadow]

Can someone insert a slowpoke gif for this man

[alpine wraith]

actually on cour ky veza and ovi nax you are kinda in the front most of the time

for ovi nax mostly because of our flurry range too

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/a-bit-late-late-delayed-not-early-behind-time-gif-15743030

[round latch]

why is coup always active

aint no way the bug is back

lul

[keen dome]

The bug is back.

[round latch]

[keen dome]

With a comedic vengeance

[round latch]

this is hilarious

[steady timber]

I'm assuming sub currently looks good in logs due to COup bug?

[round latch]

yup

pins say if u swap hero talents it stays

[keen dome]

And then there's Outlaw over there

[modern marten]

wait is this something that has to be done when switching talents like outlaw bug? I don't want to accidentally do this and get banned

[keen dome]

Two button spec: Stab Pew Stab Pew stab Pew

[modern marten]

like is it something you have to do intentionally?

[hazy breach]

Its good even without, any trickster log is completely valid

[keen dome]

It is very unliekly you'd do it by accident, and if you did you'd notice it pretty quickly.

[round latch]

check the pins

[modern marten]

k

[steady timber]

ok nice I wanna pick up sub just not the bugged version

[round latch]

im planning to play sub after deathstalker mark is fixed but this coup bug is funny ngl

[hoary orchid]

bug seems pointless in sub, doubt it would outperformance trickster in some boss's

you gotta really force it every swap

[hazy breach]

Fur sub it also doesnt count the extra cps for cdr, like it does for outlaw

Its still like +400k dps as deathstalker and absolutely still a massive exploit

[steel zinc]

the bug is insane for any rogue spec

Just outlaw doing 250% more damage and sub only 40%

[hoary orchid]

but would it compensate flurry in aoe boss's?

[steel zinc]

what aoe bosses?

like still doesnt matter

[hoary orchid]

Ovinax for ex

[steel zinc]

doesnt matter if you do way more st

also you can bp if you want to pad

you do insane st which is worth for any raid comp

[hoary orchid]

i see

[steel zinc]

its still not worth bug abusing

people actually doing keys with this or mythic bosses they have never done before needs to be banned

[clever delta]

dawn is ok for sub

[steel zinc]

yeah same with mists

still like 300k behind sin

[hazy breach]

Well sin is pretty much the best spec in the game for key overalls so

[clever delta]

i actually did same dmg in dawn 10 beofr

[alpine wraith]

yea after ele and hunter nerfs sin is very good

[steel zinc]

ele still op

its insane what ele can do

[hazy breach]

Assa keeps up with ele

[alpine wraith]

dawn and CoT are some of the best sub keys for first dance too

[hazy breach]

Obviously not during CDs, but assa is mostly a sustained spec anyway in keys

[alpine wraith]

it is also silly what those specs bring

perma knockdown sometimes with good rng

no dr

and silence and damage reduction in several targets

for 9 secs at least if done correctly

[steel zinc]

the silience is op

[alpine wraith]

meanwhile stunning secret was deemed too strong

[steel zinc]

your like vengence dh in df

[steel zinc]

aoe kidney?

[alpine wraith]

yea it died in like 3 days

like the outlaw party cdr talent

[steel zinc]

yup

I remember playing with aoe kidey

was fun

the one dungeon I tested it

[alpine wraith]

it was a bit broken because of dragons

always the scalies smh

try not to joke with that ahaha

[iron spear]

well...in my raid a outlaw rogue was every single boss fight nr. 1 with a solid 700k over the next best person

[left ledge]

He just rolled good buffs

Must’ve hit some fat 6 rolls

[steel zinc]

its a bug abuse

idk why people actually do that

its legit cheating

[brazen talon]

its not a bug its a feature xD

[strange chasm]

Because blizzard does not punish

[vale pine]

its just completely bonkers on outlaw, thats why it gets so much attention

[left ledge]

Remind me when sub rogue isn’t plagued with bugs as everyone is paying hundreds of dollars to play the game every expansion

[iron spear]

he carried the raid 🙏 not going to lie, we had like 2-3 people who died every single fight in the first min. We needed that outlaw rogue.

[steel zinc]

then you should have not killed the bosses

like again that is the definition of cheating

[left ledge]

Grats on kill

Blast more

[steel zinc]

if its hc its w/e people doing there first endboss mythic kill as bugged outlaw or silken is just so bad

[iron spear]

Im still at 7/8 hc

[edgy zenith]

they fix the bugs this morning?

any knowers?

[steel zinc]

no

[edgy zenith]

lmao?

[vale pine]

no fix so far

[steel zinc]

world first keys done with outlaw

3 outlaw is now meta

[vale pine]

[keen dome]

It's given us the funniest damage metric image ever

https://i.imgur.com/RZKsNoN.png

[steel zinc]

https://raider.io/characters/us/hyjal/Sanchezz

[alpine wraith]

there are some memes about people being banned

but no confirmation

[keen dome]

Look at that dot! It's amazing

[edgy zenith]

wow, that is like game breaking levels of broken, why is it not being fixed?

[steel zinc]

cuase us company

[edgy zenith]

that should be like a emergency maintenance level of shit

[alpine wraith]

it si morning for them

[keen dome]

Well, they did fix it, then they unfixed it bya ccident. It'll get hotifxed soon.

[edgy zenith]

especially when they had a maintencance this morning

[keen dome]

Probably later today or tomorrow.

[steel zinc]

they will not need to only fix it but ban for this

this is some obvs gamebreaking stuff

its worse then first week aug evoker

[cloud rover]

@vale pine I already asked eleem, but can you make the slowmode higher in outlaw

30s wont stop them from shitposting about bans and bug

cant normally chat in there

[patent path]

Is the wowhead guide a good place to get started with this spec?

[keen dome]

Absolutely

[patent path]

Ty

[vestal escarp]

In the end coup de grace was really a coup de grace for rogue

[keen dome]

And don't be afraid to ask questions in here if you are unsure on anything mentioned in the guide.

[hazy breach]

Wowhead and #1271971289396936735 are both solid

[spare oar]

Am i reading New St Rotation correctly? Send Symbols + sec teq out of dance on cooldown?

[barren plume]

What bug deserves a ban for players doing it? I don’t want to scroll back up that far on my phone

[spare oar]

What we doing between Flagg blades window

[iron spear]

chek pin in outlaw

[slate nest]

Outlaw has a bug, building up Coup as Trickster, killing a critter and then swapping to Fatebound makes your damage skyrocket

[barren plume]

Ohhh where it’s coup is constantly up

[slate nest]

Yeah

Bug

[barren plume]

Yea no ban needed that’s an old bug right? So at this point it’s playing as intended since blizz won’t fix anything

[slate nest]

It is a new one no?

With new patch

[keen dome]

It's an old bug that was hotfixed very swiftly, that has been unhotfixed.

[muted tapir]

They fixed it once in Beta

[barren plume]

Is it? I know there’s an old coup bug

[keen dome]

It was also, as I understand it, something expressly stated to be not okay during the RWF.

[slate nest]

It was in beta? I didnt know since I played DF then xd

Still playing pvp

[barren plume]

This game is cooked, it’s going to have a larger exodus than shadowlands in player base because it’s all bugs

[slate nest]

I just want sub rogue to be worth taking for ppl, so I get invites

[keen dome]

Good news: Sub is a lot better in keys

[potent hawk]

is it still trickster in keys?

[slate nest]

It is better, still can't aoe silence xd

[uneven scarab]

they once again pushed an update and pushed the wrong version

[keen dome]

Not Assa level, but if you play Sub better you'll probably do better.

[slate nest]

Yeah, my team benched me bcs im not sin

well "team"

[keen dome]

Rude of them.

But also valid I guess

[barren plume]

not surprising, thats the standard at blizzard

[slate nest]

Im very low io since I didn't get on my rogue for first month and a half on my rogue

[left ledge]

Fuck I wish this was me

[slate nest]

Others are like 2.4-2.6 ish

[left ledge]

I’m an atrophic bot

[slate nest]

They got a sin

[brisk zodiac]

Hey guys, kinda new to the spec ! that screenshot comes from the wowhead guide. Does it mean we can macro SoD with Flagg and SoD with Sectec ?

[keen dome]

Not everyone plays at the same level. Although yeah I feel like benching people for classes at lower ranks is a bit silly but c'est la vie.

[left ledge]

No just press them separately

[slate nest]

Nah, it's cool, I don't mind it actually, I still play with them but not high keys

[left ledge]

You do not want to press sod and instantly sectec

[harsh ridge]

Hello ! With the DM bug who made the buff disappear, is it better to play deathstalker or trickster in raid ?

[left ledge]

Same with flag

[brisk zodiac]

oh ?

[left ledge]

What’s the DM bug and what buff

[slate nest]

i think it's trickster currently for everything

Idk about pvp tho

Didn't test pvp in 0.5 yet

[left ledge]

Trickster is currently the best choice in everything unless you’re bug abusing

[uneven scarab]

I went to outlaw chat for 5 minutes and ive had enough for a year

Pure chaos

[near rivet]

every time i check it out its in slow mode

[round latch]

its total chaos and monumental ...

ye ill skip the characterizations

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Oxi

[uneven scarab]

The hottest takes youll ever read

[round latch]

@vale pine sir,rotten for m+ aight?

my eyes dont deceive me

[alpine wraith]

yea

[vale pine]

yes

[merry agate]

when are we blackpowdering as trickster bros? 🙂

[strange rover]

is 1/2 finality behind on 8 target compared to rotten anyone simmed?

[alpine wraith]

it is decent with deathstalker but for trickster it is a bit behind yes

[strange rover]

yeah makes sense

[vestal escarp]

if the fights goes on long enough i find myself sending on CB anyway mid between cds

double charge of sod for cds becomes taxing

[wispy sedge]

do we have the outlaw bug too?

[topaz raptor]

Yeah but people are already banned so it might not be worth messing with

[round latch]

for some reason im very happy!

[keen dome]

The Rotten is like a cooler PV.

[round latch]

yup

its QoL and Dmg in one node

[keen dome]

It also fits with the way we play now which is nice.

It feels like a good node. I take back hating on it for now

PV still sucks and goes in the bin though

[round latch]

yup

[strange chasm]

Is the critters a specific mob they are killing lol

Or is it legit just any mob

[round latch]

specific

its literally described as one

if u hover one target,its noted as one

if it is that is

[keen dome]

Critters are non-combat ambient fellas with 2 HP typically they use to populate enviroments

Like the cute little ferrets in isle of dorn

[edgy zenith]

sooo, for talents. IST vs RS vs First Dance. what's the consensus? I've seen a lot of variations

I feel like IST is really bad, do you really feel the extra energy?

[keen dome]

I like RS 'cos it's just chill. I've not felt like I needed more energy from IST. Not tried FD yet though.

[edgy zenith]

I would imagine IST is better outside of CDs, but idk

RS seems like the best option, but I've only tried First Dance a couple times

First Dance is sometimes even hard to get in keys

6s is a long time

normally only happens after bosses

[keen dome]

I wouldn't be surprised if FD is better in some dungeons than others. Hacha had a good point about it earlier iirc. But RS feels like a comfy choice.

[lilac stag]

You can use vanish for it

[slate nest]

If I swap tornado to TFD and I can use it, is it better or worse? Bcs Idk when to use tornado honestly xd

[lilac stag]

Which can help on some shit

Tornado like used to reset cdr

TFD better imo if shit dies quickly

[keen dome]

I need to try tornado for CDR. I really like that idea of using it.

[lucid jackal]

@left ledge

I really didn't do anything fancy on the kill CD wise

Heres what cooldowns looked like

[keen dome]

Congrats on your Ansurek kill, btw.

[red vortex]

So this bug can make DS use Coup?

That's sounds way too funny but not ban worth it LOL

[lucid jackal]

CDs on pull, Hold 2nd cds slightly to hit the web set with sectec to help break people out (You do more damage than fury warrior does to these webs its important). Fully hold cooldowns for Platform 1, send everything, basically hard AFK intermission after that, just send sectec/dance stuff if you can, then you just CD boss on CD

Nothing that fancy

[left ledge]

Are you sending everything on the duo guys

Or the shield

Oh wait platform 1

[lucid jackal]

U can also send a lot of shd/sods on the shield intermission because u just hard afk the add u need to kill to knock u up

Idk what ur damage looks like as well, but the platform 1 adds were dying before I could even send a 2nd symbols/dance as well

But we had 2x pala, and a destro warlock so the platform 1 was sort free

[left ledge]

Oh we have no paladins lol

[lucid jackal]

Make sure to shadowstep the add the does the line

[gilded ferry]

guy, why sub instead of sin?

[lucid jackal]

so u dont die to it

[gilded ferry]

felt better for this fight?

[lucid jackal]

Silken tomb and platform 1 damage

thas it

[left ledge]

Almost 610m boss dammy

[lucid jackal]

Sin in paper should be better imo but sub does a job so I just played sub

[left ledge]

Is that just normal for sub on queen rn I wonder

I love doing boss dammy

[bleak wind]

why do I feel like darkest night bug is a bit overvalued as to how big it is

[left ledge]

Wish there were more logs to look at

[uneven scarab]

idr think its overvalued, no one wants to play ds anyway

[lucid jackal]

Rogue is insanely strong now

Just saying

[uneven scarab]

Its like 2% ahead in sims

[lucid jackal]

Like all 3 specs do very, good damage now

[uneven scarab]

Sub is nuts rn

on boss dam

[wispy sedge]

bug

[uneven scarab]

no

Sub is good

[strange chasm]

Sin is just as nuts if not more nuts

[keen dome]

Yeah, Sub boss damage owns. It's super good.

[left ledge]

Yeah that’s the thing

I wonder if sin is just more worth since I’m fresh progging

But idk

[strange chasm]

Sin is easier for sure and I think does better boss dam

[left ledge]

Does sin really beat that much boss dam

There’s only one sin log

And it’s nowhere near 610 mil boss dam

[vale pine]

supercharger is a banger talent on sub

[left ledge]

But it’s before .5

[bleak wind]

assa is pretty much better than sub on everything, even on last 2 its comparable if not better

[vale pine]

and symbols added a nice dynamic

[strange chasm]

Sin already better on court now

[vale pine]

so ye win-win

[left ledge]

Fug

Do I play sub or sin on queen then

I have gear for both

[keen dome]

The one you play better and enjoy more

[left ledge]

I play both well

[strange chasm]

I'd try both out tbh

[left ledge]

I don’t enjoy either

[strange chasm]

And see which feels best

[keen dome]

Damn, that's a tough one then.

I guess try both, yeah, haha

[strange chasm]

But I think sin is defs probably have the slight edge over sub on queen

[left ledge]

Think I’ll start out as sin

[gilded ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/endgame-avengers-hawkeye-clint-barton-dont-give-me-hope-gif-15254733

[keen dome]

Do you like massive SecTecs? That's what Supercharger gives us

[bleak wind]

compromise and go outlaw, vanish for every web

[vale pine]

the spec is fun, you should try it

[vale pine]

we need 2x vanish back as talent now

that dust is gone

fuck SF

[gilded ferry]

man, ive made the jump to sin when and was decided to only touch it after 11.1

[round latch]

can confirm this,sub is fun

[gilded ferry]

because the gameplay was doomed

i guess we found a way again?

[left ledge]

Oh god

[vale pine]

yes

[left ledge]

Not the bte for 5 years spec

[vale pine]

always

[gilded ferry]

as always fuu

[vale pine]

and its rly fun this time

just avoid deathstalker on st

[gilded ferry]

.

[vale pine]

i found it a bit... not fun

[gilded ferry]

i guess i have some reading to do then

is wowhead updated?

[bleak wind]

just put it baseline, everyone happy