subtlety

[vale pine]

haha

[near rivet]

dem stacks

[hazy breach]

If it works sure

[hard ember]

wait is actually working lke that

LMFAO

that sounds like it's not going to continue to work like that if it does

[haughty mural]

[clever delta]

coioked spec

[vestal escarp]

Now we only need to get access to roll the bones...

[latent tundra]

anyone got working weakauras for missing poisons?

[fleet maple]

The pinned message says playing sub over sin for the same reasons. What are the reasons to play sub over sin?

[wraith sphinx]

reset cometh

[vestal escarp]

We dont lose vanish.....

[near rivet]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aZYUQ8XucUJh48QCm4HVMJ

Take it as a meme for now, but if shiv works, then using it at the start of dance or when DN buff is up is like +3% dps

[clever delta]

there is none

[wraith sphinx]

its also the icon for shadowdust work with me here

[pliant topaz]

Looks like it’s just a broken interaction in sims that gives 2 superchargers when you use shiv. Not sure why but yeah. Seems like a simc bug than an actual thing

[vestal escarp]

The bug is live for symbolic victory tho

[pliant topaz]

What exactly is the bug?

[near rivet]

spec DS, take symbolic victory

use shiv as as sub on training dummy

[vestal escarp]

Sub shiv is proccing sin shiv talents

Like symbolic victory and supercharger

[uneven scarab]

[pliant topaz]

Oh I see, it’ll be fixed probably

[near rivet]

symbolic victory is confirmed live, supercharger is speculation

[pliant topaz]

Good catch though

[near rivet]

i heard this one waaay too many times

[vestal escarp]

It will

[pliant topaz]

What’s confirmed? Symbolic victory making your next evis do 10% more?

[vestal escarp]

It will get attention and be hotfixed

Symbolic hasnt so far cause no one is using it

[near rivet]

that you get the buff by pressing shiv when you spec it

[vestal escarp]

Despite having more bugs on it

[near rivet]

#subtlety message

[vestal escarp]

So the question arises naturally

Has shadowed finishers been tested with supercharger?

[pliant topaz]

Doesn’t work

[vestal escarp]

Given.

[pliant topaz]

Shadowed finishers I mean

[vestal escarp]

Since either symbolic doesnt

[haughty mural]

Shadowed finisher is a good design

[vestal escarp]

If only it worked

[haughty mural]

works so well

[vestal escarp]

[haughty mural]

never krangled

good thing to have

[vale pine]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/304343434137960449/1283842520308256858/image.png

[mental herald]

Hey, I'm currently playing Assassination, but considering switching to Subtlety, which weapon types can I roll need on? I have daggers atm, but going into the raid idk if I should stay assassination or go Sub

[pliant topaz]

Sub also uses double daggers.

U can technically loot non dagger offhand, but it’s a large dps loss to have non dagger offhand

[rocky wolf]

isnt a white dagger better than like mythic sword

[woeful egret]

I thought you used sword in OH for better non-lethal poison procs?

[mental herald]

Awesome, thank you!

[woeful egret]

There is actually a truth to that unless they changed it. In PVP at least, using a slow OH was better for applying crippling

[tranquil egret]

is there a reson ppl play sub on queen and silken over assa is it the dmg profile ?

[woeful egret]

the dynamics of playing sub on that fight will change tomorrow if I'm not mistaken

[lilac stag]

CD alignment with dmg amps and it’s slightly more durable.

[pliant topaz]

Silken probably less sub dominated. Queen idk probably no major changes

[pliant topaz]

Don’t think there’s any truth to that. AFAIK people played non dagger offhand in pvp because they had more stats. But in pve it is an enormous dps loss

[woeful egret]

That was back before shadow technique and all that, I guess I'm a boomer wow player lol

[young path]

Are you guaranteed shadowcraft procs / combo pt refunds every time your off hand strikes?

[covert anchor]

Whichever you are more comfortable with or if the CDs line better

[hazy breach]

[pliant topaz]

No

[wind canopy]

HUGE

[covert anchor]

Also pin doesn’t say sub over sin tho

[pliant topaz]

But dead?

[covert anchor]

Or am I blind

[hazy breach]

Yep

[pliant topaz]

Bug

[hazy breach]

I got griefed though

[pliant topaz]

Let’s go!!!

[hazy breach]

2 orbs turned out to be 4 💀

[covert anchor]

Is that for silken?

[pliant topaz]

Time to kill bug queen

[covert anchor]

Oh

Yep

Gz bud

[pliant topaz]

Ah yes the classic stack for orb drops ah yes kekw

[covert anchor]

Dude the orbs sometimes you are not gonna pick up and swerve around it and you still pick it up

Actually happened so many times

[wind canopy]

Is this the sub version of ?

[hazy breach]

Well ye i saw they were 2 orbs stacked

Turned out to be 4

[pliant topaz]

@shut sonnet wake up u have competition for scannaW

[wind canopy]

@pseudo hollow Can we make this scanasub

[craggy quest]

Red team griefing as per usual

[shut sonnet]

I’ve been awake

I am ready

[pliant topaz]

@hazy breach queen sub angle now

[pliant topaz]

Bros woke

He anticipated

The day would come

[covert anchor]

Team team was goated wdym

[hazy breach]

Im red, but ye

[covert anchor]

Also fuck red team

Most cringe as melee

You lose a whole ass dmg amp

[hazy breach]

Yes

It stinks

[craggy quest]

Our red team mega griefs sometimes

I walked into an orb and legit got a 4 stack

?????

[young path]

Do you happen to know the proc / refund chance?

[pliant topaz]

50% chance on 3rd auto, 100% on 4th. Shadowcraft makes these 2nd and third auto

[pseudo hollow]

scana would never 0 on sub smh

[wind canopy]

wdym never

[pliant topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/finger-wag-justin-bieber-confident-song-nope-no-gif-17366024248084432562

[young path]

So is it fair to say in a 300 second encounter, a 2.6 weapon speed nets 115 hits vs 166 hits of a 1.8 speed weapon

Difference being 51 less auto attack hits, of which only about 50% may proc a refund (you would around 25-30 less combo pts generated)? Am I thinking of this correctly?

[pliant topaz]

No, because shadowcraft makes this 2/3 instead of 3/4

U can just sim the difference

During sod that is

[fair stump]

The pin says "The reasons to play subtlety stay the same as before the patch! ", what were those reasons?

[pliant topaz]

And then there’s wind fury

[fair stump]

I played sub because I found it fun, we had specific reasons?

[pliant topaz]

If u enjoy sub a lot

[fair stump]

Aside from court

[vale pine]

not playing sub?

betraying us like this

[open vortex]

red group

[shut sonnet]

[hazy breach]

What

I literally did

[vale pine]

i missunderstood

[wind canopy]

[vale pine]

red = red name = sin

[wind canopy]

ily

[vale pine]

instead of red group

[fair stump]

so what were the reasons, aside from enjoying it?

[vale pine]

[hazy breach]

Because its good

On court

[fair stump]

yeah, aside from court

[wind canopy]

ily scana, not fuu, screw that fuu guy

jk, love you too

[pliant topaz]

I see how it is… okay…

[wind canopy]

[pliant topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/sully-sad-monsters-inc-gif-21703430

[wind canopy]

[vale pine]

its good on queen too

[fair stump]

oh really?

I'll start getting some logs on queen then, to get a feel

[vale pine]

i didn't say absolute best

[fair stump]

Do we still play trickster on queen?

[vale pine]

because i can't judge that

11.0.5 looks like a trickster angle everywhere

or you mean today?

[fair stump]

yeah. 11.0.5

[vale pine]

basically

[fair stump]

Is DS getting irrelevant again? Damn

[vale pine]

deathstalker only rly wins by a tiny margin

in single target

the sim slightly overvalues

[fair stump]

Does that mean BP is no longer going to be used?

[vale pine]

you rarely use it

on trickster

on deathstalker, a lot

[fair stump]

Well, I like that angle

[vale pine]

its like this

Deathstalker can shine in long sustained aoe

Trickster is good in single target and cleave

(deathstalker is good in st too)

[fair stump]

We would still play trickster on m+ as well in that case, wouldn't we?

[vale pine]

gameplay wise trickster feels better

whats best is hard to say, both have trade offs

[fair stump]

I see

[vale pine]

if you have a lot of long living targets and big pulls

deathstalker might be better

but gameplay wise, it feels worse

[fair stump]

Yeah, I feel bad playing combo into BP specially

Is flurry back to 50% on 11.0.5?

Or we'll be able to find that out tomorrow?

[vale pine]

it was never lower

[fair stump]

I thought there was a bug

And that it was hitting for 40%

[wind canopy]

I mean, we'll find out tomorrow if they actually fixed anything

[keen dome]

Big hope. 🙏

[solar charm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lucid trail]

am i right in thinking that trickster loses some burst on reset

with the loss of dust

[hazy breach]

No, dust isnt really a burst talent

It makes us do our burst more often

[pliant topaz]

the new sims show trickster burst being at 4.2-4.3M when live is at 3.8-3.9M

so prob not

[lucid trail]

ait ait

tyty!

[vale pine]

we got damage back from supercharger

so tis whatever

[lucid trail]

so u think that sub still gonna be the play on silken

trying both atm

[vale pine]

i can't say

[lucid trail]

understandable, fuck it time will tel

[barren plume]

They fixed nothing, and sub still feels bad. No gains, defensive loss with dust gone. Blizz just fucked sub and rogues in general I don’t think any spec benefits from the change the way other entire classes and specs got treatment

[lilac stag]

Assa got lovely changes.

It’s also pretty complete going into the patch

so it’s not fuck rogues

[barren plume]

Sin is still the same supercharger. Isn’t that big a change for them

[jaunty heath]

Sub is not real

It’s a myth at this point

[uneven scarab]

enigma for real

[lilac stag]

TTK and dashing is a bigger change.

Shouldn’t be shocked at this point on one of the least played classes that one of the two dagger specs isn’t getting attention.

welcome to sub rogue

[bronze turret]

Pls

[hard ember]

idk i think sin plays better with echoing, i think it's less interesting now

[bronze turret]

Sub rogue has been eating good since early sl

[lilac stag]

design wise no

[jaunty heath]

Numbers wise maybe

[lilac stag]

Tuning sure

[bronze turret]

Sub rogue is still the play on mythic ansurek

[uneven scarab]

Bc of numbers yeah

[jaunty heath]

Does it mean it’s well designed?

[hard ember]

i remember the dark days of you having the only kill on raden with subtlety in the world for months

[young path]

#beatingadeadhorse

If 2/3 are procs based on 51 chances less, 51 x 66%=33 refunds missed (or basically almost 5x 7pt finishers) using a slow offhand

[hard ember]

[bronze turret]

Scath of all ppl should know

[hard ember]

yeh

he was here too!

[lilac stag]

I just accept that design wise we ain’t getting shit.

[bronze turret]

The gameplay has been good in episodes, i didnt hate any iteration

[lilac stag]

If it’s tuned it’s tuned.

[hard ember]

tbh i still miss shuriken combo, and the interesting design space of literally not having aoe really

[bronze turret]

I am a sub enjoyer

Most versions are fun

[lilac stag]

Raid dmg overall tuning is within 4-5%

M+ just is pure misery.

[tepid trellis]

had to play assa for 1 night cuz i couldnt break my roots cuz i wasent gnome

miserable

experience

[hard ember]

i think sub might play better in m+ as trickster after the update tbh

[bronze turret]

Assa doesnt feel well suited for the fight cus of cds

[hard ember]

cuz many symbols means you have energy to do stuff

[tepid trellis]

Assa is fine for p1-p3

just not p2

it does nothing at all during that

[bronze turret]

Ye but does fuck all between

[young path]

(The un-simmable factor)

[bronze turret]

Which is the problem

[hard ember]

right now you feel kind of dry and bored alot, or maybe i'm bad

and whenever i have to go like do something crazy like cast cheap shot

etc

i feel like my life is over

[tepid trellis]

back to playing sub tmrw tho

[bronze turret]

The lows must be low for the highs to be high

[next valley]

Does anyone play with the Harvester's Edict trinket from ara kara, if so does it feel alright?

[uneven scarab]

others have higher highs without being as low as we are though

[hard ember]

i think the spec could potentially be really interesting if shiv actually just triggers supercharger and they leave that in

[vale pine]

gnomed ^^

[bronze turret]

The spec isnt meant to enjoy backstab moments, the cds should make up for backstabs

[lilac stag]

The cdr makes me cry

[vale pine]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[bronze turret]

Yes but maybe they have less of those cd moments

[hard ember]

i kind of miss the one-dance early dflight sub

[jaunty heath]

Need more paladins bro

[hard ember]

where you like just popped out with sectec

and did a gorillion

[young path]

Think I’m gonna do the same

[lilac stag]

The eye rolls at single dance at first was fun

[bronze turret]

I wonder if outlaw isnt shit on it

[hard ember]

i actually thought i would hate single dance

but after playing it just a little i was very pleased

[young path]

Getting invites to 12s is impossible though 😒

[bronze turret]

Technically you should be able to cancel the drag with the outlaw mobility thingie

[lilac stag]

I legit don’t understand wanting to push keys this tier.

[tepid trellis]

cancel drags with step

we dont need no hooks

[lilac stag]

Let me just fill my vault and GTFO

[bronze turret]

On a dk?

Or how

Dh?

[tepid trellis]

well you can step the boss in p1

[hard ember]

shadowstep

[bronze turret]

Ye well

[hard ember]

[tepid trellis]

and you have mobs in p2

[bronze turret]

If you step into shit later on

Prob not ideal

[tepid trellis]

and in p3 you step a mage to ignore the portal mech

[weary kite]

If you want to do aoe in deathstalker in raid. Do you change the talent tree at all or just leave it in ST and cast bp and shit?

[bronze turret]

Painsmith all over again

[jaunty heath]

I wish someone would step me fr

[bronze turret]

Free ride

[tepid trellis]

in p1 the DK needs to walk into poop anyway

so you cant really get around it

[bronze turret]

I see

[tepid trellis]

you spawn webs where you get yoinked from

so you walk into shit to place it

[bronze turret]

Boss is dead next sunday, calling it

[pliant topaz]

your math is missing so many variations. 2/3 doesnt mean two thirds... it means instead of 50% on 3rd auto and 100% on foruth auto, during sod it become 50% on 2nd auto 100% on third. also why are u just assuming 50% the whoele time? it resets once proc has come through. and u cant factor in the amount of sht lost to wm procs etc. its much much bnetter to sim. the sim actually accounts for all of that but a super simplistic math model doesnt

[bronze turret]

Makes sense

[young path]

I’m trying to understand homie

Hence why I’m asking

[pliant topaz]

run a sim with slow offhand, and non slow offhand. then press the html report button. look at how many sht procs u got in each set

thats the median of the number of procs u get

then u can compare easy

[hard ember]

it's honestly a rather straightforward sim question, where this is one of those cases where you'd expect it to be very accurate

[young path]

Probably a far better idea than my current sim usage…

Thanks!

[hard ember]

the things that you can't really sim are things like needing to do utility casts, or the like

something like sht procs which you can track with the naked eye (well not anymore with shadowcraft tbh, not easily)

that's the sort of thing where it's like

a sim will be modelled incredibly accurately

[lilac stag]

anyone want to guess what time N.A. beta testing of 11.0.5 starts tomorrow? Normal maintenance they’re up by 10 AM

[hard ember]

i think 3 hours

[pliant topaz]

they announced

until 3pm pdt

[hard ember]

oh

longer, then

wait actually is that longer

[lilac stag]

Announced and guess not the same. Haha

I’m thinking 5 pdt

[hard ember]

i was guessing 3 hours overtime

[uneven scarab]

6pm sounds accurate

[lilac stag]

I’m kinda expecting raid to get canceled.

[hard ember]

"surprise we didn't realize we buffed fdk so much despite everyone being confused about us buffing fdk!"

"also we finally figured out how to make 2nd boss mists miserable again, so the balls are actually no longer killing the clones, it works as intended now"

[lilac stag]

I’d like the ptr to come back to try shiv

[hard ember]

dude shiv looks so fun to figure out

like i really wonder, shiv before it all starts to build stacks, shiv possibly in a gap during your blades? shiv with premed - but before symbols possibly? etc

lowkey i've replaced my snd bind with shiv

hoping to manifest it

into actually staying that way

[lilac stag]

would be something different

[pliant topaz]

I think this is partially our fight, we've been a bit too salty (and hard to blame us) but to be honest, i really like the addition of extra sod charges. It opens up the spec a lot and is really interesting to play around. Im gonna try to be more positive and focus ont he good a bit going forward

[hard ember]

a kind of amp cd taht contributes to the window, that requires a global yeah

[lilac stag]

6 days?

[hard ember]

i kind of wish finality was tuned a bit higher so tehre could be variations of 1/2/3 symbols

cuz i think that could have been interesting

[pliant topaz]

we'll see i guess LOL

[hard ember]

but probably would have ended up like ds vs es, where like one was clearly better

dependin on the patch

or situation

[lilac stag]

Watch assa get a 2% nerf and the floodgates open up to its dead how is sub

[uneven scarab]

[hard ember]

a 2% nerf after a 6% buff

[hexed bluff]

Assa gonna be just fine this whole tier

[lilac stag]

pmuch

[hard ember]

they really buffed enhance, fdk and assa

[hexed bluff]

Us sub lovers have been getting the shaft

[hard ember]

it's crazy work

[pliant topaz]

the thing is I think 2/3 charges are quite ineteresting. specially the third charge + swift. finality and db on the other hand are quite boring. I do like finality putting more power into evis, giving us better prio, and db helping our aoe alot but i dont think the cost of us getting that should be loss of the interesting choices that extra sod charges give

there are much better solutions

[hard ember]

Yeah I see what you mean

[lilac stag]

please delete sechtech pets, make it an evis amp with aoe splash and a stupid purple visual.

[bronze turret]

Gotta be salty about the things that actually matter. Tons of shit to be salty about if you break it down

[uneven scarab]

[pliant topaz]

thats true, and theres things to be genuinly mad about, but that doesnt really help us at the end of the day

it just craetes a sad depressing enviornment here

[hard ember]

I guess I would like to see a world where you could get to a numerical similarity with like variations of 1 or 2 dances paired with 1-3 symbols etc

[bronze turret]

Ye you dont want to be outlaw rogues

[pliant topaz]

exactly

those guys are mad about good changes too

we dont wanna go there

[vale pine]

we found some rly nice apl changes

so ye

it does not play like shit

sub does what sub does best

[lilac stag]

It’s just passionate here. and depression easily kicks in if you feel you’re being ignored.

[vale pine]

find a way to make things work

[lilac stag]

people love their purple ninja rp

[vale pine]

we just play trickster everywhere

and be happy

[keen dome]

Being able to glow purple is good and cool

[pliant topaz]

imma be honest

i dont think this .5 patch was meant to have class changes

[lilac stag]

Assa got trickster for keys? 😆

[vale pine]

nope

[lilac stag]

I think .5 class changes are what was supposed to be 11.0 RC

[vale pine]

no trickster on assassiantion

[pliant topaz]

yep. so like, its not really bneing ignored.

we'll see in 11.1

[keen dome]

Stepping stone changes that are part of some bigger revamp

[lilac stag]

I mean. 35 BP…

[keen dome]

Absolutely, firmly agreed that these were meant to be the 11.0 changes.

[lilac stag]

keys are clearly not a focus

[pliant topaz]

its just the tuning they always do

somethingds really bad compared to alternatives -> they buff it

somethings not played at all -> they buff it

nothing special about that tuning

[lilac stag]

BP +4000% after zero DS sub rogues in play

[hard ember]

wish we could have idk like

spent tdn on bp and reapplyed with ss

or osmething

it's so awkward

doing that evis

[uneven scarab]

Should work with secret

[hard ember]

that would be really cool

[uneven scarab]

Works in st and aoe

[formal helm]

10k% buff or nothing

[alpine wraith]

time to give us the shadowstrike on finishers again

so we can always proc it with coup

ez

https://www.twitch.tv/hachadino/clip/SolidExpensiveNostrilSoonerLater-qNSOqlx2kH7Iy3L5?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time

that tier would have been so good if the blades didnt also proc from it

[pliant topaz]

wtf is even happening there lmfa

[signal smelt]

old tier that had a chance to shadowstrike 5 targets after u used a finisher, he ended up getting like 7 procs

so just spamming evis for free

was fun asf to play w

[wind canopy]

Ahh yeah, that tier set

[alpine wraith]

basically better ace

if more than 2 targets

[uneven scarab]

Goat dungeon

Bring it back

[alpine wraith]

i farmed it so many times to try and get the rings

with socket

[jaunty heath]

Top

Fun on some specs not so fun on others

Cool dungeon tho

Theme and shit was on point

[uneven scarab]

I just loved the boss fight designs in there

i played law at the time i think

[jaunty heath]

Besides pvp boss

I agree

[signal smelt]

ToP on a weekly w friends was unmmatched vibes

[uneven scarab]

Nah pvp boss was bis

Always cc’ing my friends

ya LMAO

[jaunty heath]

Pvp part was cool but

[signal smelt]

getting put in the rage cage w ur mage and making him sit a full blind into sap

[jaunty heath]

Killing add in time is never fun in higher keys

[uneven scarab]

Dude i used to do exactly that to my surv hunter friend lmao

[uneven scarab]

Fair

i can agree with that

[signal smelt]

pvp boss on actual push keys was obnoxious fs tho

fun as hell otherwise

[jaunty heath]

I miss when weekly keys were just fun activities and an actual breeze

While I see the problems with that

But man

[uneven scarab]

yeah same

[jaunty heath]

My weekly freeholds where the best part of the week

[uneven scarab]

Its too much effort these days for like

Not really much reward

[signal smelt]

squish made blasting through a bunch of free max vault keys kinda obnoxious

[jaunty heath]

Pugging 10s is just really not fun idk, with a group it’s okayish but even then I’d have more fun blasting weekly keys any other season

[uneven scarab]

Ive had a bad taste for keys since my 73 runs of doti for nicholas of time

[jaunty heath]

That one was easy to drop took me 3 tries

On my rogue alt

[uneven scarab]

I got nothing until my last two runs

I got two back to back

[jaunty heath]

Altho idk why that dungeon liked me but

[uneven scarab]

You shouldve see the amount of those leech legs i had in my bags

[jaunty heath]

I got all timestrike weapons on all specs I played

Pretty fun

[clever delta]

you saying playing trisckter everywhere but pinned sims are ds

[lilac stag]

[clever delta]

i missed the second sim

my sub gear is kinda shit now, sub would actually need to pull ahead for me to play it again

its not even better on court now

[steel horizon]

Dungeon slice winner: trickster

https://tenor.com/view/gigachad-chad-gif-20773266

[fleet maple]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[glacial tundra]

are we ready to #bringbackDFA? @vale pine

[vale pine]

na, secret is fine

[vale lagoon]

is it just me or are the sim numbers a bit higher lol

i think we were in the 1.5 mils for overalls

for dslice

[vale pine]

yes

4% buff

~

[vale lagoon]

4% buff does NOT bring us from 1.5 mil to 1.9 mil tho??

im so confused

[vale pine]

you mean for dungeon slice

oh

thats because

[vale lagoon]

i think i've heard the idea that dslice isn't the exactly damage we're supposed to do

[vale pine]

nimble flurry was fixed in simc to work correctly

[vale pine]

its not

its a mixed fight style

[vale lagoon]

but previously the 1.5 mil for sub felt pretty accurate

and the 1.9-ish for sin felt accurate too

maybe even a bit low

[vale lagoon]

wait wot

how was it not working b4 lol

but regardless, we're just

not saved in any way

rip

[sweet summit]

we WILL be saved brother

not in .5

but it will happen

[vale lagoon]

but what do i do in the meantime

to keep myself from pressing BtE on myself

irl

[sweet summit]

u have to come out of stealth

and it wont work

lol

maintain a constant state of just unstealthing and u cant bte urself

[vale lagoon]

KEKW

outlaw bugs too

love t

truly one of the small indie company moments of all time

[sweet summit]

so fucking fire isnt it

[vale lagoon]

kinda says something about the state of MMOs in general

that this motley crew is running the most successful franchise of all time lol

[sweet summit]

its pretty funny

might have to get into ff14

thats pretty much the only mmo i hear ppl praise rn

[vale lagoon]

ff14 races are SO lame tho

like wow doesn't have the asian MMO sliders but like

ur choices are so awesome

[sweet summit]

im gonna be so real why the fuck does wow races have limits on what classthey can be

[vale lagoon]

but like what other game has dragons who's racial is FLYING

and literal zombies

[sweet summit]

i think the races r cool in wow

idk much about ff14

[vale lagoon]

usually it's just color swapped supermodel elves

yeah wow is such a good game

these ppl just put so little effort into QC

[alpine wraith]

can ptr PLEASE GO UP

i need to test shit mang

[sly shore]

wait

we just completely drop snd tracking from auras wednesday lmao

[alpine wraith]

yes

this row will lose its inhabitants

thanos snapped

3 for 1

[hoary sun]

Can thanos snap some damage back into the spec perhaps?

[alpine wraith]

just crit more

ez

crit the 6 strikes of your 15 cp coup every time

why 6?

because fuck you

[vestal escarp]

reaper of kyveza is so cool

ong

[steel horizon]

New flag icon is so flaccid

[graceful crown]

crazy 4 % damage buff coming

[steel horizon]

That blood dripping or w.e the hell it is is way better

[graceful crown]

[fair stump]

you used cold blood separately?

[alpine wraith]

there are some fringe cases

[sweet summit]

where can i see

[alpine wraith]

looks like shite

[sweet summit]

yikes

ngl blizzard kinda lacks in icon art

some go hard dont get me wrong

but the amount of reused icons between class / specs is weird

[cerulean beacon]

What the fuck were they thinking

[sweet summit]

i will macro the old icon over it

[delicate ridge]

Look I dont hate it its just that it is sort of worse so its a bit of a ? change

make it more purple or somethin

[hazy breach]

Theyre redoing all covennant abilities icons to be less "covenanty" and fit more with the class themselves

They had another one for sepsis too, but obv no more of that

[clever delta]

new flag is fine with me

[ebon tiger]

I'm all for some SL erasure

[hazy breach]

I agree with the old flag being cooler, but i see why theyre doing it

[delicate ridge]

Nah like I get it but realistically flag is not even covenanty its just a blade drenched in blood

the og ability was a red poison iirc which I assume is where the icon came from

but obv flag aint that today

and you could just colorshift echoing reprimand without changing the blade to look less sharp and making it wider

[halcyon ridge]

!fuu[

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fallow nimbus]

Slaughter poison

[brazen steppe]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sour tulip]

Heyya 🙂 What are the reasons to play sub over assa mentioned in the pinned post?

[vale lagoon]

the reason is: you REALLY like sub and aren't serious about prog

bcuz otherwise ur just fking inting

[slow ruin]

tell me you're a league player without telling me you're a league player

[sour tulip]

Ah I see…

[vale lagoon]

I'll tell you im a league player directly

it's not more shameful than being a sub onetrick lul

[slow ruin]

tbf i played sub s1 cata classic and outdamaged my whole raid team on ToTFW 😛

[proper fulcrum]

Thats insane lmao

Raid team is cooked

[vale lagoon]

i was outdamaging like 3 different rets in my guild in keys just 2 weeks ago too

always some teammates out there who makes our spec look non-garbage

[slow ruin]

preach

[vale lagoon]

man im so sad tho

i rly dont wanna go play OL

and fuck sin in the ear

but like

i can't fking get over this shitty run

i literally watched that ret go from less dmg than me in overalls, to the same dmg, to crushing me

in the span of 2 weeks

im don't think i was playing anything particularly wrong in NW

[proper fulcrum]

Ret is cracked

[vale lagoon]

and yet they're only like b tier

sin and frost still above them

[proper fulcrum]

One of the best in keys

[vale lagoon]

SIN > ret

[proper fulcrum]

I'd say Ret is definitely A tier in keys if not S

[vale lagoon]

ret's strong

but not the most broken one

[proper fulcrum]

FDK

[next valley]

Were you beating him ST?

[vale lagoon]

and ret's already crushing us like ants

[proper fulcrum]

Sin definitely really good too

[next valley]

and just ranked up the dmg from trash

[vale lagoon]

i mean yeah

i was like 40% more dmg than him on stitchflesh

[vagrant fulcrum]

if we're talking purely overall dps ret can often beat sin

[vale lagoon]

rly? I find that kinda insane

[vagrant fulcrum]

I do agree the spec isn't as useful as sin for other reasons but if all we're talking about is overall at the end of a key ret can win

[vagrant fulcrum]

they do a lot less prio but they have v good cd uptime / good aoe in general

[vale lagoon]

bcuz sin deals the same dmg as me just by garroting and rupturing from stealth

as when i fucking send flag + shblades + 2 dance

[vagrant fulcrum]

https://mythicstats.com/dps

overall dps is a bad metric

but ret does beat sin

[vale lagoon]

like every pack they're spiking to like 3 million dps

[vagrant fulcrum]

I suspect the floor for ret is higher but the ceiling is clearly lower

[vale lagoon]

meanwhile im 1 million dps if i only have dance + symbols

legit below tanks

[vale lagoon]

HAHAHHAHAHA

im going to hurt myself physically

[proper fulcrum]

Sin gaming

[vagrant fulcrum]

issue with this list is it measures top x number of keys from a spec

problem for sub is it's probably not ran by serious players

[vale lagoon]

WE DO THE SAME DMG AS AUG

[vagrant fulcrum]

59 runs of 8+

is probably in 8-9-10s by casuals

[proper fulcrum]

True of what you say Mo for sure

[vagrant fulcrum]

while sin is compiled from 12s and above

sample size of sub is far too low

[vale lagoon]

lul

[proper fulcrum]

Not many people playing sub period, but especiallly in the higher keys

[proper fulcrum]

If you are good at sub and have good gear though you can do more than 1.1m for sure, even in your SS bug you had like 1.6

[vale lagoon]

in personal experience tho, sub REALLY doesn't go much higher than 1.5~1.6 million

[proper fulcrum]

how geared are you

[vale lagoon]

sin's like 2 million

625 ilvl

[vagrant fulcrum]

I suspect sub can pop off but you'd need the stars to align

[vale lagoon]

nah

[vagrant fulcrum]

black powder pumps since the buffs

[vale lagoon]

not really

[proper fulcrum]

Can pop off but yea still gonna be below Sin sadly

[hazy breach]

Sub is definitely better than those charts suggest

[vale lagoon]

it barely feels stronger than trickster

[hazy breach]

But its not better than sin

[proper fulcrum]

Sin definitely the better choice in keys but fuck it

We ball

[vale lagoon]

i feel like sub is a whole 25% behind sin

idk

[vagrant fulcrum]

vast majority of specs are solidly below sin

core problem is blades isn't that big in aoe

while the extra bp dmg is nice it's not enough

[vale lagoon]

core problem is fucking flag being so powerful

so our base dance is now just worthless garbage

[proper fulcrum]

Core problem is Sub isnt sexy enough

Give us the sexy buffs

Let us slam

[vale lagoon]

like DANCE is our identity

not some frozen leftover from the single worst expac of all time

why the fuck is it even tuned like this man

[vagrant fulcrum]

you probably liked pre-rework sub

v good overall, frequent strong dances

[vale lagoon]

WoD sub was cool, DFA Legion sub is awesome, DF S1 Sub is the goat

[vagrant fulcrum]

2min dmg was fake

[vale lagoon]

idk man

[vagrant fulcrum]

i'll say this, I think that list really under-represents arcane

[vale lagoon]

just so sad to see dance play second fiddle to so many things

[vagrant fulcrum]

nothing functions without dance atm

it's a pre-requisite to doing anything pretty much

[vale lagoon]

it should be the ONLY thing that matters

[vagrant fulcrum]

dance and symbols stopped feeling like cds

and started feeling like requirements to do dps

[vale lagoon]

this shit about symbols

is so ass too

dont even get me started

[vagrant fulcrum]

is there any reason they don't just bake symbols into dance?

[vale lagoon]

like why is dance waiting for something else lmao

[vagrant fulcrum]

who enjoys having naked symbols

[vale lagoon]

exactly

[vagrant fulcrum]

dust is going away

[vale lagoon]

to be replaced by just more symbol stacks

great

now i can sit in "sYmBolS oF DeAtH" more

[vagrant fulcrum]

it would be cool if they could make blades proc something like a sectec cd reset

[vale lagoon]

while my dance still does nothing

[vagrant fulcrum]

to make up for dust

[vale lagoon]

nah

the idea of multiple back to back sectechs is just stupid

imo

more power to those who can pull off the resets reliably ofc

[vagrant fulcrum]

it's the strongest thing we have really

[vale lagoon]

but like, one big sectech is way better than 3 small ones no

[vagrant fulcrum]

pumping BP or evisc both come with problems

bp does little prio / pad spell

[vale lagoon]

was saying this yesterday, but like, i want sectech to be a thing where if i press it with the right setup, i literally SEE the trash's hp go down from like 100% to 60%

even in like a 12 or above

[vagrant fulcrum]

evisc doesn't aoe / nimble flurry bugged + bp buff made bp a lot better in actual aoe

[vagrant fulcrum]

you can kinda see mobs hp move when you press it

as far as individual globals go it's quite powerful

maybe not enh level

but not super far off

[vale lagoon]

only when u can press it 3 times in a row with trickster lmao

[topaz raptor]

those numbers are logs counting out of combat time right

[sly cove]

@vale pine nice writeup on the wowhead review mate. Out here fighting the good fight 💪

[tribal blade]

i love the fact that arcane mage in keys doesn't do the best aoe but BLASTS st

and they're getting a 12% st buff

[vale lagoon]

i love the fact that i pay $15 a month to not even have a shot at being competitive because I'm drawn to a certain spec's fantasy

[jaunty umbra]

then cancel your sub. if you wanna be competitive you play a competitive spec

[vale lagoon]

or they can balance like they're anything more than worthless subhuman dogs

2 options right

kek

[hazy breach]

Or you could calm down

[vale lagoon]

sry, just a little frustrated seeing this shit

meanwhile fuu has to end everything he publishes with "but it's a good patch overall"

kinda obnoxious at this point

[pliant topaz]

okay but its not that deep. sometimes spec good sometimes spec bad

you can do what I do, play sub in raid and sin in keys

or you can do what stealthi does, play another game until they fix it

[vale lagoon]

and this too

like it's completely fine to have a patch where some specs are super behind

but like, buffing the strongest specs and not helping the weak specs by the next patch

that's where it gets sus

pls tell me im not crazy for thinking that?

[pliant topaz]

theyre not buffing anything though. theyre making the changes and the buffs are a side product, not the goal

theyll probably hotfix it later

[weary saffron]

yeah these arent really "tuning" notes for rogue or most specs

[vale lagoon]

oh if they do i'll write a haiku to sing their praises

and maybe buy the 12 month sub lmao

[strange chasm]

Or just play sin full time now like I do and just raid log 😦

[vale lagoon]

HAHAHAHAHAHA this is golden tho

[strange chasm]

Raid logging this early into an expac is great game design

[vale lagoon]

seems like they have the same problems as us huh

the “50% tooltip 40% in game" thing, altho i know that one is just a dummy bug for us

[jolly hare]

why play sub over sin in mythic raid? im kinda newb but if they are similar whats the bif between on demand amp dmg for m court?

[pliant topaz]

sub has better burst, its also a 1.5 min spec and dances are more frequent than kb windows

[wispy bolt]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/good-juju-witch-good-vibes-sending-love-and-light-hive-gif-20508559

@pliant topaz

[barren plume]

Oof I must be bad I parse way better in sin than I do in sub

[vale lagoon]

bro sub is a onetrick spec

ur like

actually just parsing against fuu and armin lmao

[barren plume]

Lol

[vale lagoon]

legit them and no one else

no pisslow new players to pad with

[barren plume]

I’ll get there

[vale lagoon]

lol im just waiting for the hotfixes that armin "promised" me

surely they finally aura buff us and make us not piss!

[barren plume]

Lol you silly bitch thinking like that will get you nothing but disappointment

[steel horizon]

on wclogs, is there a way to change this so i can only see the last 2 weeks instead of top 100 all time

i wanna see if more people are playing ds on mythic brood since the bp buff

[vagrant fulcrum]

tbh I don't think they thought "let's buff sin frost and arcane"

it just happened as a consequence of the talent changes

lowkey idk if blizzard even knows the impact of talent changes on damage

[vale lagoon]

I expect them to ALWAYS consider balance impacts like their lives depend on it, because I come from League, where even tho balance isn't perfect they actually try

[vagrant fulcrum]

issue is what if something is a nerf unless players change how they play

are you supposed to anticipate the change in apl for sims?

[vale lagoon]

well it's a good thing we have people like fuu literally losing their hair to update APLs

almost like he should be getting $$$ and official recognition for his efforts

[vagrant fulcrum]

thing is sim and apls are changed AFTER blizz post patch notes

[vale lagoon]

yeah becuz people like fuu still have a life lol

[vagrant fulcrum]

idk if blizzard have an internal tool like simc

[vagrant fulcrum]

not about having a life, they litterally can't implement a change if they don't know what it is

so how is blizzard supposed to know

[vale lagoon]

eh? didn't we literally get the changes week in advance

literally all blizz needs to do is to actually lock in the changes and clear about it

[vagrant fulcrum]

I've got a q for you

can we trust the buff %s?

[vale lagoon]

as opposed to doing literal last minute changes just so they can be lazy and not held accountable

[dark oak]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/304343434137960449/1283842520308256858/image.png

[vagrant fulcrum]

if your answer is yes

look at outlaw's sims

do those reflect reality?

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale lagoon]

pretty sure we can for the sub stuff lol, esp for patchwerk

and dslice still shows what's a buff and what's a nerf

[vagrant fulcrum]

look at dslice

outlaw isn't even close to sin in dungeons

there's a lot of problems

[vale lagoon]

that's the nature of dslice lol, the actual numbers isn't what we're looking at

[vagrant fulcrum]

we have to be real

it's difficult

[vale lagoon]

it's just the general of numbers going up or going down after a change

[vagrant fulcrum]

for blizzard to forsee the impact of changes that are mechanical in nature

and not just x number goes up

[vale lagoon]

and for a spec that's already at the bottom of all tier lists, their new sims shouldn't have them going down

or even going up by very small margins

[vagrant fulcrum]

things like twist the knife for example

[short radish]

you cant compare dslice numbers between different specs

but yeah sub is still kinda poop

[vale lagoon]

again, just see if the dslice number is going up in general

[vagrant fulcrum]

sure, but it proves my point that sim numbers aren't really trustworthy

[short radish]

well they are

[vale lagoon]

and whether it's going up a lot or a little

[short radish]

you just gotta read it in the right context

[azure mauve]

id say outlaw is stronger than people give it credit for

[vagrant fulcrum]

perhaps for comparing an item

[vagrant fulcrum]

Im watching @leaden prairie get bodied on the regular in keys, he's a good player

him losing to the tank xd

you can't tell me it's not an OL issue

[short radish]

if you are reading dslice sim and thinking "i should do this exact damage in dungeons" then you are reading it wrong

[vagrant fulcrum]

that#s not what im saying

im saying the sim assumes unrealistic things

the execution carried out by the sim is NOT really replicable by humans consistently

[short radish]

it is on single target patchwerk

[vagrant fulcrum]

why isn't OL topping kyveza?

spec sims a ton higher than other rogue specs

[short radish]

because its not single target patchwerk

[azure mauve]

sure doesnt seem like hes getting bodied

[vale lagoon]

and im saying i doubt there are times when the sims fucking show you a spec going down, but you end up going up in actual gameplay

[vagrant fulcrum]

alright, st patchwerk doesn't exist ingame atm then

[azure mauve]

i mean only one dungeon but ive watched his stream plenty of times

hes keeping up

[vagrant fulcrum]

either way back to the original point

it's tricky for the devs to know ahead of time

easier for them to hotfix nerf / buff things

after the mechanical changes have gone through and players have optimised gameplay around the design changes

[vale lagoon]

it's tricky for devs to know ahead of time because most of them are dogshit at playing their own game lol, imma go out on a limb and say not all devs are like that realz individual

and that's why these ppl need to intereact more with theorycrafters

[short radish]

they had all of beta

[vagrant fulcrum]

like he's not last by a ton, but he is consistently 3rd from the runs i've seen

[short radish]

and all of since beta ended

[vale lagoon]

so they can serve the necessary changes days in advance, instead of weeks late

[short radish]

it's a resourcing issue

[vagrant fulcrum]

we, as a community are dogshit beta testers, we only play w/e build does best numbers, we dont test all the talents etc until the broken thing is nerfed / fixed

look at mages on beta

litterally didn't see a non fire mage for weeks

then it got butchered and they all went to arcane for ages

when that was broken

[vale lagoon]

HUH, then it's almost like a spec being ignored on beta tells the devs exactly what they need to buff lol

[short radish]

also i only really speak in context from rogue

[vagrant fulcrum]

I wish they'd balance better too, but Idk if any of us would do better in their place

[short radish]

but i wouldnt call our rogue TC's dogshit beta testers

[vagrant fulcrum]

no, they're not

but to produce usable data there needs to be a decent sample sizew

[vale lagoon]

i mean we objectively would, because we'd actually care. BUT, i just don't know if we'd make as much money as them for activision because we'd also be spending resources on balancing.

[vagrant fulcrum]

also I suspect blizz don't dedicate that much time to balance

[leaden prairie]

they are trahs at the game tho

or well im better

lets say

[vagrant fulcrum]

^

like watching zac global to global

ain'tnoway he doesn't deserve more dps

he's hella clean

[azure mauve]

how much more dam would you say you would do with weap

[leaden prairie]

none

it doesnt sim better in m+

[vagrant fulcrum]

compared to a similar skilled player on sin the overall wouldn't be as closee as sims would suggest sin and OL are. basing balance decisions from blizz's side on sims alone is risky business

[leaden prairie]

sin players are delusional

if i do a nw against casual addict

he can do up to 40% more damage than me

[vagrant fulcrum]

yeah

[leaden prairie]

sin players will say outlaw is fine

[vagrant fulcrum]

XD

one day they will remove the cap

live for that day

[azure mauve]

sure

one day...

[vale lagoon]

yeah that's sorta where i ended up too

they're ultimately still trying to sell their game to dogs who think AoTC/KSM are milestones

and ig it works for them financially

[pliant topaz]

its not even close tbh. sin gaps all

[tribal blade]

i'm very happy i chose to move off sub to push

[pliant topaz]

NW 13 for me was 2.4M overall

[tribal blade]

because based on this tuning blizz is doing

can't rely on good tuning to catch up with a worse spec

[leaden prairie]

max i do is like 2mil

[short radish]

yeah, im gonna try out sub a bit still for last 2

but ive basically just respecced for sin now

with gear and stats

[leaden prairie]

thats already 20%

[short radish]

see how the new patch feels

probably ass

[leaden prairie]

i have seen casual do 2.65 in mist

my top is 2.1

[short radish]

i didnt win mythic transmitter roll as well

so i still have a normie one

reeeeee

[leaden prairie]

and its mist, there isnt even any uncapped packs really

[vale lagoon]

yeah ngl i guess loyalists like me just don't go above 12 this entire season lmao, no point rly pushing anymore, just farm gear & sell carries to prep for next tier

yay fun

[pliant topaz]

thats what im saying. peopel are like dk/enhance w/e

sin cannot be beaten overall

[pliant topaz]

i posted a screenshot a few days ago mist 13 2.4M overall

[tribal blade]

it's not impossible to push as sub, i've done it in past seasons when sub was not played by anyone, but yeah it's a really difficult battle

you have to have serious willpower to keep at it

[leaden prairie]

sin also scales very well into higher keys

[pliant topaz]

oh yea

pack lives im vibing

[leaden prairie]

13 is still kinda low for sin to tryully shine imo

[pliant topaz]

it iss

gatekeeper died before kb

[leaden prairie]

ye

14 is prolly fine

15 you get full potential

[vale lagoon]

yeah it's not impossible

just like it isn't impossble to recover from cancer

but i still dont want any sort of cancer

[tribal blade]

the longer this goes on the less and less they're able to nerf stuff

because once the season becomes established

[pliant topaz]

not really

so like, they did say this to be honest

they said that they dont want to nerf the "meta"

[tribal blade]

mmmm

[pliant topaz]

because this is an mmo, people make their characters and its not a good idea to break that

but they said theyre open to buffing things

[tribal blade]

it's a fair point by them

[vale lagoon]

then how about they fucking communicate more during beta

[tribal blade]

but yeah they should mega buff stuff that's underperforming

[vale lagoon]

like

[leaden prairie]

dk getting buffed next week

[vale lagoon]

nothing about the meta is surprising rn no?

[leaden prairie]

is so funny

[tribal blade]

dks actually getting a big buff is just wild

[vale lagoon]

we all knew this was how shit would shape up

[short radish]

!specs

!spec

[wicked jolt]

All Specs are good and have niches and strengths that they play to. All three specs are looking viable with Assassination/Subtlety being preferred in raids. Mythic+ meta has not solidified yet but Assassination looked promising during beta.

Be aware that Simulations are a tool to be used to compare things like talents/gear/rotations, they are not the definite answer to what is meta or not meta. While outlaw is ahead in sims right now, especially dungeonslice, you have to take a step back and realize these are synthetic/generic situations that we use as a baseline. Dungeonslice has always been a great showing for outlaw simply due to the fight style matching well with the spec. This is not unusual or unheard of.

You can view logs of the raid when it comes out Here, or view the mythic+ run leaderboard Here.

[short radish]

damn

ass looking promising in beta

[vale lagoon]

HAHAHAHAHA it's literally just fuu trying his best to not shit on the devs

must be tiring to still act so nice in the face of incompetence

[short radish]

!dot5

[wicked jolt]

The power level of the spec stays about the same but the changes are generally a downgrade.
Things that get worse in the patch:

• Talent diversity
• Defensives
• Gameplay
  This does not meant he patch is bad, just that it isn't a great update to Subtlety.

[short radish]

i mean

we're getting a 5% dps inc

so we take that i guess

[pliant topaz]

calm down.

[vale lagoon]

i'm not gonna talking about the devs directly man, absolutely good there, im just saying it seems like fuu is also trying to be indirect

[vagrant fulcrum]

it's a game at the end of the day, people like sub if it does good dps or not and will play it regardless

[short radish]

nah

even when sub does good dps

ppl still dont play it

or ppl are mad they have to play it

source: amidrissal

[vagrant fulcrum]

you seem to be talking to people who don't like the spec

[short radish]

its just the general vibes

[vagrant fulcrum]

of my co-rogues 2 of them really love sub

and gravitate to it whenever given the choice

[tribal blade]

nah he's right, that's actually what happened with sub during amirdrassil

[short radish]

echo or liquid was like "hey can we get more playing sub for smold it's fuckign bonkers"

"lol nah too fucking hard"

[tribal blade]

the amount of sin rogues who were furious they had to go sub on smoldy onward

[vale lagoon]

even in df s1 i saw fellow rogues complaining about sub being at all viable

[short radish]

yeah it's acutally the opposite with ppl in sub. the ppl here that play sub really fucking love it

there are dozens of us or something

[vale lagoon]

https://tenor.com/view/wolf-of-wall-street-jordan-belfort-leonardo-di-caprio-one-of-us-jonah-hill-gif-5441859

[short radish]

but like fuck its sohard to justify playing sometimes

[vale lagoon]

yeah at this point i just hope blizz can slap a bandaid aura buff onto us, make us at least better than half the specs in keys and worse than the other half

and i'll never yap again

[tribal blade]

right now you have half of the die hard sub rogue players playing sin

[short radish]

yeah i am one of them 😦

[tribal blade]

because there's no way to justify using sub in high level content

i'm one of the die hard sub rogue players

and i'm now sin

it feels dirty, but had to be done

[vale lagoon]

i remember the screenshot of 3.7k io lmao

this man fking pumps

[tribal blade]

dude i literally swapped sin and gained ~70 points of IO in 3 hours of keying

[short radish]

sin is so chill as well

[vale lagoon]

i mean i gained 80 io in a single key last week bcuz i finally grew a pair and did CoT again

[short radish]

[tribal blade]

i had a hard time getting used to the aoe rotation, it has a lot of moving parts

[vale lagoon]

everything else was on +11, that one was on +6

[tribal blade]

but once you get the hang of it, it's fine

[vale lagoon]

yeah honestly i wouldn't accuse current sin of being too ez

[tribal blade]

in ST it is for sure pretty easy

in aoe less so easy, but not the worst

[vale lagoon]

oh god ST

such a 2010 idea

[short radish]

honestly i hate sin in ST

it feels so clunky

[tribal blade]

haha sin in ST is kinda funny

[vale lagoon]

they keys are where it's at maaaan

[tribal blade]

whenever i swap back to sub now the ST rotation is so much sweatier than sin

[vale lagoon]

i fking swear m+ is so awesome, u use so many weird shit from ur kits

[tribal blade]

much more GOGOGO

[short radish]

yeah but sub ramps up and down

[vale lagoon]

my flag macro is literally called "GOGOGO button"

[short radish]

feels like a steady pace

youre under control

[wispy bolt]

a big problem is no one knows anything about subtlety other than subtlety players. usually people know a decent bit about every spec at high levels but for subtelty is just "yeah idk what youre talking about but can you play assa"

[tribal blade]

the thing is even with sub's downtime it's kind of sweaty in a sense because you're trying to maintain as much uptime as possible

[short radish]

sin has moving parts of maintaining envenon/garrote/rupture

not complicated

but still a pain

how is sub feeling for last 2 bosses with the changes btw?

[tribal blade]

this is very true, nobody knows anything about sub

[short radish]

does 1:30 still line up

[tribal blade]

except "why are you pressing black powder"

[short radish]

or is it all ass now

[tribal blade]

"why aren't you funneling"

[short radish]

i started so much shit with that for tindral in RLE