Was bfa worse play rate than now?
#subtlety
wispy bolt
lilac stag
one of the dagger specs is playable.
wispy bolt
(I started DF 10.3)
lilac stag
Was bfa worse play rate than now?
Yes way worse after zul nerfs
We haven’t hit 6 of us being active in this channel… yet
M+ right now is the big issue. Raid overall is decently balanced between all specs, just sub on the lower end.
and assa cranks boss dmg
wispy bolt
Idk how to play assa but I was hitting random buttons that felt right on the 5 target dummies and did more than I do with a perfect sub rotation over 5 min
Also didn’t use trinket
lilac stag
assa by its nature is pretty idiot proof. As long as you’re pressing something it’ll do work.
it’ll jump up in apm in ST with patch
tulip trail
was gonna ask how hard we are dooming, but i can smell the doomium from the door
wicked joltBOT
The power level of the spec stays about the same but the changes are generally a downgrade.
Things that get worse in the patch:
- Talent diversity
- Defensives
- Gameplay
This does not meant he patch is bad, just that it isn't a great update to Subtlety.
barren plume
how do i report a bug
trying to zone into instances or hearthing it doesnt zone me in it says the instance doesnt exist after the loading screen
short radish
try respeccing, maybe it'll allow you if youre in assi
sinful sluice
i noticed that even without improved shuriken strom, players tend to use shuriken strom on single target bosses. what would be the reason for this? and when should I use storm?
short radish
i noticed that even without improved shuriken strom, players tend to use shurike...
when playing DS
you consume ss buff when not in dance and symbols
sinful sluice
i see
cuz i thought ss was only for renewing find the weakness buff
should try this out on dummy
short radish
it's a minor dps increase
because you get 2cp instead of 1
for the same cost as BS
or something like that
pliant topaz
it also does more damage than bs but yea
muted agate
sad sub noises
short radish
why would i change your mind when youre not wrong
tribal blade
got like 30 points from 12 NW
pliant topaz
youre gonna be even stronger now stonks
tribal blade
oh interesting
pliant topaz
do they know which build is gonna be best
for sin?
tribal blade
for sin?
yeah, i'm curious if it's gonna be supercharger or w/o a trace w/ MA
oh shit sims are up in the sin channel
tribal blade
cool cool yeah i see
spark tusk
challenge is ttk isn't supported in sims so
pliant topaz
Yep yep
spark tusk
hard to 100% know the play
pliant topaz
It’s supported but stacks can’t be tracked so it just dies its thing
spark tusk
yeah
tepid trellis
i played TTK on our early ansurek prog last night, cuz i got mad at Assa
its funny seeing envenom buff go to 11.7 sec duration
spark tusk
yeah it's wild how long it gets
tepid trellis
can go grab a snack and come back
tribal blade
i need to login and make my rogue gnome
tragic
tribal blade
they need to just remove all combat effects from races
and make it purely cosmetic
i can't take playing dwarf anymore
tepid trellis
look at this lil rat now
pliant topaz
shrimply be a gigachad nelf
tepid trellis
pliant topaz
look at this lil rat now
vale pine
look at this lil rat now
looks angry
tribal blade
yoooooo look at them legs
time to die on 3rd boss in siege
because you get stuck in the water
tribal blade
oh does lfg take a group you signed up for that delisted and relisted their key and put it as 'declined"
and won't let you sign up for it again
nvm fixed it with reloading ui, this game i swear
ionic ore
hey, does someone know, if there are already new rotation explanations for upcoming rogue rework
hopefully its not to much new thing to learn
alpine wraith
you have to be more finnicky with the opener but not much else just lots of skips
where you dont use dance
and after first rotation of cds you also skip symbols
ionic ore
skip symbols for line up next cd window? or what u mean exactly
tepid trellis
you roughly dance once every 20-30sec until flag is 30 sec or less cd then you full stop
you do this to make sure you have 2x dance + 2x SoDs for flag
thats like a tldr for it
it is a bit more often
than that
but eh
its basically whenever your sectech is about to be rdy again
until you need to full stop
twin trench
Are the sub changes a net buff?
near rivet
yes
twin trench
Is there a number floating aroudn associating w/ that?
been playing sin but I kinda wanna play sub again aha
umbral topaz
From what i understand it is not enough to close the gap to sin, seeing as sin also gets a buff 
tepid trellis
Is there a number floating aroudn associating w/ that?
like 5% or so
3-5%
smth like that
vale pine
Is there a number floating aroudn associating w/ that?
4%
twin trench
Still a W
twin trench
thanks :)
alpine wraith
for slice it is a bit tricky
because the first dance is quite strong
so it depends on how many times you can proc it
even more if it is on the dance that has the cds
bronze turret
isnt assa extremely close to sub st performance atm
bronze turret
is the fuu sheet out of date then
alpine wraith
the mark one kinda cucked us a bit
and the DN bug too
yea he has to update a bit after patch likely
vestal escarp
look at this lil rat now
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
^ current numbers
but deathstalker for sub oversims
because there is a bug so detahstalker sub loses ~3%
essentially means
sin is on 1450
sub is on ~1380 (~-5%)
11.0.5
tribal blade
until you need to full stop
i really like this whole breakdown you just did, screenshotting for future use 😉
vale pine
it seems both are about the same?
but lets look at current numbers
whispyr's sim is 1530
current top sim for sub is 1496
so roughtly 3%
not too bad
then again the same bug exists
so another 2-3% from bug
or we switch to trickster
which with optimizations is around 1460-1470
which should be abour on bar or slightly higher than deathstalker
with the bug considered
lilac stag
I think it was what 6% on assa
vale pine
its 4% on sub
6% on sin
maybe a bit less/more overall but rough estimates seem to look like that
lilac stag
The supercharger isn’t breaking anything in sub sims, that’s just with TTK on assa?
median nacelle
i cant handle more assa, im going back sub
haughty mural
sim just can't stack envenoms right ? supercharger seems fine
lilac stag
I think that’s what it was.
3am N.A. brain not awake yet
One of the kittens throwing up
vale pine
The supercharger isn’t breaking anything in sub sims, that’s just with TTK on as...
nope
i mean, what do you mean with breaking anything
sly shore
what is the difference for my specific gear set over 45s with all buffs, 8 targets and bloodlust
ty for your help in advance
formal helm
One of the kittens throwing up
ff.
hope it's good
lilac stag
think he just ate something he shouldn’t have but keeping an eye on him. I swear cat regurgitation noises are the best alarm clock. Instantly awake. No snooze button.
alpine wraith
actually sub is a funny thing for 45 scs
because we use 4 symbols there
BIG DAM
then it only goes down from there
lilac stag
i mean, what do you mean with breaking anything
I thought I read at one point something funky with assa and either ttk and new er in sims. Maybe it got sorted. Can’t find it now.
west tide
! fuu
sly shore
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
alpine wraith
!pedro
sinful sluice
after 11.0.5 what would be best build for mythic+?
is patch live in any servers yet
alpine wraith
slice builds are a bit weird
you might end up with smth like this
or just no premed but PE
formal helm
That looks cursed
alpine wraith
you could play tornado as DS
formal helm
think he just ate something he shouldn’t have but keeping an eye on him. I swear...
Ye, common thing for them
Also yeah...no matter how deep you sleep you're insta awake when it starts
formal helm
you could play tornado as DS
Okay but that gameplay (DS) just seems even worse, no?
vale pine
Sim Time:
Single Target: Link Winner: Tie, Deathstalker sim is still slightly to high due to the DM bug which is estimated to be around 2-3% dps in impact.
Dungeon Slice: Link Winner: Trickster
Note: The first Dance is good for Mythic+, the 6 seconds out of combat requirement is not a problem.
Quick notice:
I started to completely re-do the APL from scratch, it is possible that certain talent combos are not yet perfetcly optimized, you can find more information about it -> [In the TC-Subtlety channel](#1065728795455266888 message).
We try to keep the TC-Information channel up to date to reflect latest findings.
IMPORTANT!!!
Subtlety stays similar in strength relatively seen to Assassination. The reasons to play subtlety stay the same as before the patch!
sinful sluice
I actually like DS brew build a lot(with tornado) tho
I guess ill use trickster for cot and tirna and ds for others
alpine wraith
think for slice first dance should be better in most cases although quantifying the value must be hard
fair anchor
Oh i was expecting DS to take over everywhere, its still way behind trickster in m+
alpine wraith
well some things were found like the nimble bug not applying everywhere
fair anchor
Ooooh
vale pine
nimble should work in the sim just like in game now
alpine wraith
no last time i checked but it was 1 week ago
vale pine
did they fix flensing knives?
don't think so
vale pine
Which is full 50% in all dungeons and raid
yes and no
but to quickly sum it up:
- Nimble does not benefit from Fazed
- Nimble does reduce damage for armor
- Nimble gets impacted by Find weakness
This means it isn't clearly 50%
lilac stag
@vale pine what prompted starting from scratch with the apl?
fringe palm
don't think so
lovely
vale pine
<@194804407706189824> what prompted starting from scratch with the apl?
I think its good to question assumptions every now and then, and the change from the patch are quite big
alpine wraith
dust being gone makes lots of lines outdated
we kinda did the same when old NS and other shittos went gonezo
vale pine
yes, but its also not only that
there are potentially apl lines which are not true anymore
or have no impact
lilac stag
Makes sense. I figured it was dust, but didn’t know if anything else factored in.
vale pine
basically, re-doing everything gives the option to re-evaluate everything
you can always just copy/paste the old lines and see if they still hold up
tribal blade
jesus 100 energy sub with no improved shadow techniques sounds so cursed for M+
well i guess symbols uptime will be higher
tribal blade
interesting
lilac stag
I’m curious if sub or assa has more prio dmg in packs now with the ttk changes
vale pine
Makes sense. I figured it was dust, but didn’t know if anything else factored in...
i thought of doing so before the dust removal, but had not enough time for 11.0, dust removal seemed like a good point to start
tribal blade
probably still assa
vale pine
I’m curious if sub or assa has more prio dmg in packs now with the ttk changes
assassiantion already had more before the patch
rough rivet
__**Sim Time:**__
Single Target: [Link](<https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/...
fyi ds sim uses 2 metagems (bracers and neck)
tribal blade
how is it even possible to sim 2 meta gems in 1 set of gear
vale pine
its a problem of gear sets
i got quite a bit flamed for it in SL i think
but ill explain in a moment
trickster has a lower trade off for prio rotation
so its 3,5% gain for ~5% aoe loss
not too bad
vale pine
but ill explain in a moment
basically, i did use a profile from the community as a baseline was the main problem
This isn't a problem but
tribal blade
is the aoe rotation for trickster sub still striking during dance and spending with BP in big pulls
vale pine
Raidbots switched over to use Bonus ID's to identify sockets
but simc allows you to just add sockets
without the bonusid in code
e.g. like here:
[2;36mneck=,id=225575,[2;37m[2;45mgem_id=213743/213497[0m[2;37m[0m[2;36m,ilevel=639[0m
i'm always so impressed with people who are able to code, goes completely over my head
vale pine
and because there is no bonus_id for the socket, its threaded as if the gear piece has no socked by raidbots
so when it checks for meta gems
it skips it
it is why i added the id's to the gear copy/pasta
so if you use that, its something to not consider
but the neck... i need to change gems on 😛
alpine wraith
also need to change wep
vale pine
wait is sub simming higher than sin in dslice now
unsure
tribal blade
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kjC9KWpKgDn81bQhTaRtZA this sim whispyr posted is simming at 1.8 mil
and the trickster sim is at 1.9 mil
vale pine
give me a sec
dreamy badger
Dslice sims are fake idk
vale pine
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kjC9KWpKgDn81bQhTaRtZA this sim whisp...
like old sims are already close
tribal blade
oh are they? ah ok
must be one of those situations where the sims don't quite live up to what you can actually do in a real setting
raw violet
Do I understand it correctly, that we will be playing trickster for dungeons? After the patch?
dreamy badger
must be one of those situations where the sims don't quite live up to what you c...
You do way more in actual keys then dslice sims
Also it varies with key level
tribal blade
You do way more in actual keys then dslice sims
true it's not a 1:1 mirror
i might give sub a shot in some keys maybe
like if i have a chance to do an easy 12
vale pine
You do way more in actual keys then dslice sims
thats correct, because of sustained aoe
@tribal blade
Had to comment out ER in the apl of the sim you posted, but:
sim
it depends on talents, iron wire is def. a good one and i haven't looked at other talent options
just switched to one point of supercharger
think this highlights the diffrence easy
^ @dreamy badger explains why sin is noticable ahead in keys
it does more prio even without optimizing for it and noticable more aoe
you can go more aoe for sub too with dark brew dethstalker potentially
tribal blade
it does more prio even without optimizing for it and noticable more aoe
ahhh ok i see i see
alpine wraith
yea something like this should work with DS but ugh
supercharger trickster seems funny to do tho
vale pine
yep
alpine wraith
15cp coups brrr
vale pine
this is what i currently have in the sim
vale pine
its good in certain dungeons ^^
past marlin
our utilityyy kek
ornate heron
can someone explain unseen blades and flawless form in terms of m+ ? im not quite understanding how to optimally utilize it and how to get aoe eviscerates
vale pine
can someone explain unseen blades and flawless form in terms of m+ ? im not quit...
unseen blades procs flawless form.
So in aoe, if you have no flawless form, you press backstab once or twice to get a proc of unseen blades and as such flawless form back up again
thats not too complicated
but even if you don't do it isn't a problem
ornate heron
is flawfless form and being fazed the same thing?
ornate heron
okay okay, so just use backstab or shadowtrike to get flawless form up
vale pine
on 2 targets
ornate heron
you strike in dance?
vale pine
you technically
strike to apply find weakness
on both targets
🙈 sry
now you have the burdon of knowlage
vale pine
just fyi, you can just always storm and not care
it isn't that bad
you don't lose out too much dps
especially when starting/learning easier
ornate heron
also is secret tech always the second finisher in dance as trickster still?
vestal escarp
oh no i noticed the no improved sht
median nacelle
if ur at 5cp or 6cp do u strike one more time to do a 7cp sectech?
vestal escarp
What the hell robot
median nacelle
do we always wanna make sure its 7cp for the sectech is basically what im asking
tribal blade
just fyi, you can just always storm and not care
i saw when casual was using trickster sub on beta keys on huge pulls he would just storm>BP even in dance
i wanted to test that out but there's nowhere that has enough targets to do it on a whim
sly shore
@vale pinedo we remove snd from bind on wed or is it still bugged
vestal escarp
i saw when casual was using trickster sub on beta keys on huge pulls he would ju...
Might have beeb a personal decision, at start of expac TCers said that bp is never worth as trickster because of fw hardly being up in aoe, this was when we assumed nimble at 50% which is
vale pine
<@194804407706189824>do we remove snd from bind on wed or is it still bugged
purge it ye
what was bugged?
sly shore
wasn't it just not applying sometimes
tribal blade
Might have beeb a personal decision, at start of expac TCers said that bp is nev...
yeah i remember, but it was interesting he was bursting as hard as the other specs in the key doing that
he was keeping up with a dk
near rivet
i wonder if recuperator is finally working
lilac stag
@vale pine do you know when your wowhead summary is supposed to go up? Or it just the guide update.
vale pine
<@194804407706189824> do you know when your wowhead summary is supposed to go up...
later today/early tomorrow
vestal escarp
yeah i remember, but it was interesting he was bursting as hard as the other spe...
Rn bp is objectively more dps at 9t before fw
vestal escarp
So yeah i would personally start counting targets in aoe
tribal blade
this was during beta before the BP buff
alpine wraith
wasn't it just not applying sometimes
opener was as bit krangled but now it is fixed
worth to play premed
and forget the krangliness
ornate heron
if you play deathstalker sub, when you get darkest night in aoe. do you use eviscerate to cycle it? or do you keep black powdering for damage?
sly shore
how does supercharge work as a trackable buff
is it just a buff with stacks
I need to completely redo my combo points bars too
since all classes only use 7 combo points just gonna get rid of dynamic combo points
vestal escarp
First 2 cp should be animacharged
alpine wraith
well there are some things you can do with it
vestal escarp
Visually i meant
bronze turret
Well you symbols and then finish with the big finisher
alpine wraith
like prepull
vale pine
is it just a buff with stacks
no buff
tribal blade
it isn't really the end of the world to not track it right
since symbols is used with dance, and dance is very scripted
it just gets naturally consumed
bronze turret
Well you dont want to accidentally supercharge a 5-6 cp evis
bronze turret
Idk how much of a bad it is, but less fun
alpine wraith
to get a DN in
tribal blade
ah i see
alpine wraith
but we are still not in the pase of those kind of min maxes
just let me tell you sub after 1 min becomes sloggish
vale pine
it isn't really the end of the world to not track it right
nope
haughty mural
we take those
near rivet
if you play deathstalker sub, when you get darkest night in aoe. do you use evis...
if you are up for really cursed gameplay, its worth to cancelaura DN buff and apply mark with shadowstrike at 8+ targets, Evi with DN buff only to keep SND up
bronze turret
We gonna have 3 symbols charges and you can still just overwrite them 1 by 1
alpine wraith
correct
vale pine
symbols is still pandemic
bronze turret
Such shit tbh
alpine wraith
smoll indi
vale pine
so can take over 3 secs
bronze turret
Make it just add duration
alpine wraith
compani
near rivet
so can take over 3 secs
isnt symbols kinda bugged in that matter?
alpine wraith
not really
sly shore
I'll work it out once it's live
alpine wraith
lasts 10 secs baseline so using it at 3 you dont lose
sly shore
won't take long
near rivet
i swear it extends to 12.3 seconds instead of 13
vale pine
isnt symbols kinda bugged in that matter?
no, its pandemic
bronze turret
I hope the charges have a small lockout, I can see ppl hitting that button on accident 2 times in a row
alpine wraith
it will go to that
wispy pebble
So with DS and Trickster being tied in ST i guess we just run trickster all the time next patch?
strange rover
hello fuu do you have any opinion on new trixter sub performance in m+ with 3pl symbols build no db no finality
vale pine
hello fuu do you have any opinion on new trixter sub performance in m+ with 3pl ...
tricksters problem is aoe
once you get to sustained aoe, you kinda fucked on subtlety
dark brew can fix it to a degree, but has diffrent trade offs
strange rover
i mean 3pl symbols should give more sustain dps though
vale pine
this shows off a part of the problem too
comparing sub/sin on 5 targets AoE and priority damage
even if you optimize for priority, you do significant less than baseline sin
and baseline sin does 20%+ more aoe
at the same time
strange rover
is it with new ER stuff?
strange rover
damn
vale pine
people not beeing aware of that kinda showcases what we discussed yesterday in this discord
there is no easy way to compare specs/classes atm
strange rover
i mean i know that assa miles ahead of sub and outlaw in m+ rn but i hoped patch will change something cuz i dont like assa in any way
vale pine
the patch chanegs nothing for assassiantion
and sub stays similar
assassiantion gets 6% iirc single target
sub gets ~4%
aoe of sub is similar
maybe a bit lower even because less blades uptime
wispy pebble
btw any reason the sims in the pin are with contract and not mandate?
strange rover
i see thanks for info fuu ❤️
vale pine
btw any reason the sims in the pin are with contract and not mandate?
sims about the same
so 
strange rover
oh btw about mandate why does it sim on droptimizer raidbots as dps loss compared to any garbage trinket i cannot prove to rl that it is bis
wispy pebble
id be highyl down to drop one of the on use trinkets haha
vale pine
id be highyl down to drop one of the on use trinkets haha
same
wispy pebble
Guess im praying for voidreaper in vault then
lilac stag
the patch chanegs nothing for assassiantion
156% envenom buff uptime is not nothing. /s
strange rover
probably u would play that in m+ cuz it should increase ur spatter+prio damage but dont know yet instead of what
vale pine
not sure that works well because of point economy
strange rover
na you have infinite resources in aoe
vale pine
what i means scath was, sub/sin stay relative to each other about the same
strange rover
its just ST
strange rover
xd
vale pine
its the same
strange rover
i mean
void hound
whats the DM bug, and does it affect onlys sims or ingame numbers too?
i imagine its the former
vale pine
whats the DM bug, and does it affect onlys sims or ingame numbers too?
it means the sim is a bit too high
2-3%
radiant shale
Trickster got more buffed than deathstalker right?
vale pine
thats the overall gain in ST
around 4%
vale pine
Trickster got more buffed than deathstalker right?
yes, but we measure peak vs. ´peak
strange rover
it means the sim is a bit too high
is there a consistent way to reproduce that bug ? 🙂
vale pine
is there a consistent way to reproduce that bug ? 🙂
yes, by playing the game
strange rover
oh so u dont have to do anything special ? 🙂
vale pine
no
strange rover
nice
vale pine
it is a bug they fixed
then re-introduced
when fixing er interaction for sin
but haven't fixed again since
radiant shale
yes, but we measure peak vs. ´peak
Yes, but on the last boss, we are playing Trickster right?
vale pine
we probably just
play trickster everywhere now
unless you have large sustained aoe
in which case you probably would
deathstalker brew
strange rover
honestly after sin buffs theres no reason to play sub on any fight anymore
vale pine
honestly after sin buffs theres no reason to play sub on any fight anymore
idk it might be still better on last 2
but we will see
young path
play trickster everywhere now
void hound
honestly after sin buffs theres no reason to play sub on any fight anymore
thats what im thinking too
vale pine
i am not here to tell people what to play
i personally also play sub
what is the "best" is always primary tuning
strange rover
i would play sub or outlaw but sin is just too good
radiant shale
I understand that, I wanted to know if we technically got more buffed than assa on OG trickster bosses
vale pine
sin just was decided to be tuned better since late season 3 DF
strange rover
not gameplay wise ofc tuning wise yeah
vale pine
and had some good updates too
subtlety still stayed on the 10.2 rework level, and did not improve in any of the updates
just diffrence in how the development team handled the two specs and tuning
strange rover
yeah i guess they want us to play sin
sly cove
Doesn't seem like they even know what to do with Sub these days
radiant shale
At least, we don't have to play around tea
fallow nimbus
A last min change adding storm to unseen blade would be nice 
vale pine
but they do emphasize to bring positive updates every iteration
radiant shale
Yes, that's a curse only assa has to deal with
ornate current
How do you make something worst if it was fine before
pulsar mauve
Did they fix sub bugs on 11.0.5 ptr ?
ornate current
Why fix something that isnt broken
strange rover
honeslty i like 3pl symbols idea its kinda good + additinal dmg amp only thing sux that it doesnt change shit
vale pine
instead of fixing assumed problems with band aids
vestal escarp
And 20% agility on 5 targets
fallow nimbus
Now that dust is gone they can start with good updates, am i right? 
vale pine
Did they fix sub bugs on 11.0.5 ptr ?
some, not all
thats also a considerable thing
trickster bugfixes are in part why its good too
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue
wispy pebble
wait did they fix nimble?
rugged moon
Out of the loop, please tell me 11.05 is trickster favoured
vale pine
Ah that's good news ! Is eleem's sheet updated with the fixed bugs ?
it is just the cdr they fixed
the rest is still buggy
vale pine
Out of the loop, please tell me 11.05 is trickster favoured
yes
rugged moon
Thank fuck
vale pine
play trickster, and ahve fun
rugged moon
Even for ST?
rugged moon
I was considering rerolling sin after 3 years of sub if I had to play DS
lilac stag
Nimble wasn’t broken
ornate current
Is DS siming more on ST cuz of the bug ? Or the sims are without the bug ?
vale pine
nimble isn't briken
pulsar mauve
it is just the cdr they fixed
Wait what was the cdr bug ?
vale pine
it has some issues
ornate current
I assume the bug is the atacks not getting used
vale pine
Wait what was the cdr bug ?
secret and dance did not get cdr for the extra cp from coup
tribal blade
Wait what was the cdr bug ?
coup now correctly will give cdr based on the extra CPs it uses
wispy pebble
huh wasnt nimble 10% less dmg than tooltip?
lilac stag
On broken target dummies yes, in raid and m+ no
pulsar mauve
Ow cool. Talking about coup, it didn't refresh snd... Not an issue anymore with auto snd \o/
wispy pebble
shiiiiit flamed them for no reason then
lilac stag
You need a !nimble
alpine wraith
getting ready to get the !restealth to explain first dance dps gain kek
vale pine
or if you test on dummies in the new zone
fallow nimbus
If things do % of another thing then these rules should apply: no armor reduce, no crits, no dmg mods in any kind
alpine wraith
think you may want to get a silent storm build going for trickster
alpine wraith
to get that fw
rugged moon
Is it dps gain to storm for fw then?
vale pine
imagine if we could apply FW during dance in aoe
by tab targeting your enemies
alpine wraith
depends
vale pine
alpine wraith
yea that works
vestal escarp
If you crit
tribal blade
think you may want to get a silent storm build going for trickster
what would you drop to get it
lilac stag
Thought it was up to 4? Or did you cook more
vale pine
Thought it was up to 4? Or did you cook more
only on 2
basically:
3+ targets you storm
2 targets you fw both with strike
strike during dance always
trickster 101
rugged moon
Yeah but you have to play assa
vale pine
i can't change tuning, i can just try to optimize the sim/gameplay
rugged moon
Even DS gameplay is preferable
lilac stag
Yeah but you have to play assa
And do less rupture spreading than I have to as sub.
Which is a win
vale pine
design and tuning problems are blizz issue
lilac stag
Fucking spreading rupture can fuck off
alpine wraith
what would you drop to get it
dont think it is that worth anyway
you would need to drop inev/wm or something like that
wispy pebble
Fucking spreading rupture can fuck off
mouseover macro mvp for that
tribal blade
dont think it is that worth anyway
yeah probably
lilac stag
it’s not bad for you maybe. I can’t stand spreading dots as sub.
alpine wraith
as trickster you can open with tornado and rupture twice or thrice
tribal blade
doing it
vale pine
i don't like the solution for assassiantion too
ornate current
What is the DS bug ? Stacks not getting used up when darkest night is up ?
vale pine
tribal blade
spreading rupture for sin is more agi, more energy and more damage
lilac stag
if I wanted to actually play a dot spec I’d want to play assa, but lol you don’t spread dots there
alpine wraith
it is usually more dmg than using tornado to bp as trickster
vale pine
spreading rupture for sin is more agi, more energy and more damage
storm is still to expensive, should get energy costs cut
alpine wraith
to just send it on pull
vestal escarp
Terribly more efficient at it
tribal blade
storm is still to expensive, should get energy costs cut
that would be amazing
ornate current
Cuz i see ds simming higher i assume its without the bug
vale pine
So what are the DS st sims than ? With bug or without it ?
the sim is 2-3% over ingaem value due to the bug not being in the sim
tribal blade
you know i tested it out on sin, i could spam FoK ~12-14 times before running out of energy
ornate current
Ah ok
tribal blade
in a row
vale pine
means the two are fairly close
lilac stag
Didn’t you put the override in for the bug or no?
ornate current
Yea gotcha
vestal escarp
you know i tested it out on sin, i could spam FoK ~12-14 times before running ou...
300 vs 100 energy
alpine wraith
big 15cp coups coming home
wispy pebble
trickster alone just for not having to play tornado lmao
tribal blade
300 vs 100 energy
even with 200 energy sub it goes way faster because of 45 energy storm
radiant shale
Are we using replicating shadows in our ST trickster build? Or is there a bug on the previsualisation on raidbots?
ornate current
Ngl was gonna swap assa but now that trickster is doing fine i might just stay
vale pine
the storm/backstab energy cost increases
lilac stag
Ask stealthi
ornate current
The FW target swaping sounds cancer but hey its something at least
vale pine
did make sub aoe/cleave feel a lot less round
alpine wraith
i mean it is not super important
vale pine
The FW target swaping sounds cancer but hey its something at least
you can just not do it
its rly a minor optimization
alpine wraith
i would only do it when all mobs kinda have same hp
tribal blade
if we're going to be doing tank damage outside of cds, need to revert the energy nerfs to storm and backstab
vale pine
only 2 targets
clever delta
!fuu§
vale pine
if we're going to be doing tank damage outside of cds, need to revert the energy...
its just a game design problem
clever delta
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
basically
ornate current
you can just not do it
0.6% just to feel something 
tribal blade
its just a game design problem
yeah... there's a bunch of stuff they need to revert on sub
vestal escarp
if we're going to be doing tank damage outside of cds, need to revert the energy...
Design direction is just not to have sutained aoe dmg, it's hard to say if full will be good in keys anymore
vale pine
the important thing is
to iterate after
to correct problems
this wasn't done, and as such we feel the impact
vestal escarp
At least rog players are not forced into outlul anymore
vestal escarp
Zac is doing alright as outlaw
lilac stag
either which way. Thanks @vale pine for the efforts. @hazy breach & @pliant topaz too.
vestal escarp
Not as int as it seems to push with it
vale pine
outlaw isn't bad
vale pine
sin just does considerably more damage in all situations
strange rover
i mean you can do many suboptimal things in ur life
vale pine
assassiantion is also the most popular rogue spec
so it makes sense that blizz gives it the most attention and best tuning
strange rover
yeah because its easyest spec out of all 3
vale pine
yeah because its easyest spec out of all 3
it was also for a majority of modern wow the best raid spec
keep in mind the playerbase is all old players
wow isn't attracting new players
clever delta
started playing court yesterday and assa was more than fine
strange rover
yeah i guess old players enjoy 30apm specs
vale pine
sin was always the easiest
it was just also more times than not the best tuned
e.g. 4/5 raids in Legion and 5/5 raids in BfA
strange rover
i mean sepulcher sin was fine for me it had some kinda explosive burst that was fun with flag
but now its complete bedge
vale pine
Shadowlands was weird with
S1: Outlaw, later Sin
S2: Could play all 3
S3: Sub or Sin
S4: outlaw
DF had sin/outlaw most of the time nerfed
so it happened that sub ended up good because of that
was also tried to be corrected with buffs to sin or nerfs to sub during the xpac
but either too late or not agressive enough
vale pine
it will make deathstalker play worse
why?
alpine wraith
no ER points for DN
strange rover
yeah ER help alot with keeping envenom uptime without draining too much energy
vale pine
did they revert the changes yet
which ones?
pastel rampart
dust gone
pastel rampart
its ok we get sectech dmg after pressing shiv...
lilac stag
yeah ER help alot with keeping envenom uptime without draining too much energy
You’re not missing it at all in .5. The apm went up 8-9 and the envenom uptime is 156%. 
vale pine
its ok we get sectech dmg after pressing shiv...
assass
subtlety
nation
strange rover
its tied to symbols not shiv on sub
vale pine
yes
strange rover
You’re not missing it at all in .5. The apm went up 8-9 and the envenom uptime i...
maybe idk i guess u need to play way more haste then
vale pine
which is better
pastel rampart
its tied to symbols not shiv on sub
its bugged and works with both as of a few days ago
vale pine
shiv requires a target
lilac stag
it’s literally TTK
vale pine
i guess
pastel rampart
I don't think it outvalues lingering but xddd
strange rover
i mean that kind of bug they gona fix immedeately
vestal escarp
Ttk interaction with dashing scoundrel
pastel rampart
i mean that kind of bug they gona fix immedeately
yea bro I reported it on the beta its definitely a priority for them!!!
alpine wraith
they did fix tier set interaction with SoD
although with charger it is whatever
well first thing i will ask NA people to test is if shiv procs charger would be so silly
vestal escarp
What distresses me the most of 3sod is the added conditionals on sod send in few cases compared to the send on cd clock we had
alpine wraith
there is nothing crazy with 3 SoD
you just send 2 on pull
then a third when it would come back originally
at 30
vestal escarp
After opener you can find yourself with a charge of sod and dance up but sit on them cause you're waiting on coup
vale pine
then a third when it would come back originally
the problem is, you would just use it on cd
so you had to not consider fight timers
now you need to look at cooldown timers
its a big change
alpine wraith
fight timers will be interesting ehehe
pastel rampart
just tested again today on the off chance they hotfixed it and thats why that guy was confused
yep.... shiv procs it
alpine wraith
lul
vale pine
yep.... shiv procs it
ptr works for you?
pastel rampart
this is symbolic on live
vestal escarp
then a third when it would come back originally
At 20s you can have a dance charge back and be baited into sending cause until now you sended when aligned
vale pine
ohh
vestal escarp
But you have to wait
alpine wraith
at 20s you are instill in cds
what do you mean
third SoD is around 3x
fourth sod is at like 45 secs
vestal escarp
Opener is 6 globals
alpine wraith
dont worry we dont talent symbolic victory
pastel rampart
^
i figured u guys didnt care about the interaction bc it doesnt change anything
but with supercharge it might
if it also has the same bug
alpine wraith
yea might want to check if shiv procs charger
it is the same ID
our shiv to theirs so
lilac stag
I can’t wait for this new engagement in our rotation
lilac stag
this shouldn’t be surprising
ornate current
Unless this turns out to be so massive that we are super close to sin im not pressing shiv as sub lol
lilac stag
!remindme 36 hours
vestal escarp
Pretty sure if that interaction is a thing it's getting hotfixed
ornate current
With symbols?
ornate current
Pretty sure if that interaction is a thing it's getting hotfixed
Oh yea lets hotfix that and not the other 80 bugs on the spec
lilac stag
Even better DM stacks
vestal escarp
Exactly
pastel rampart
Pretty sure if that interaction is a thing it's getting hotfixed
of course it would be hotfixed right its only an issue theyve known about since beta and they definitely wouldnt copy paste the code from symbolic onto supercharger for sure
lilac stag
pastel rampart
charger already stacks
vestal escarp
Look we're already gonna abuse pre pull supercharger
near rivet
if you use symbols 3 times in a row you get 6 charged cp?
pastel rampart
ye
near rivet
useless, but neat
lilac stag
Is ptr down? Or can someone log on and check.
ornate current
if you use symbols 3 times in a row you get 6 charged cp?
You can only start the fight with 2
Anyways
If you go above it removes them on pull
Down to 2
Or something like that
near rivet
2 is better than nothing
vestal escarp
Yes only 2 supercharged cos prepull
It's a small benefit only for a slightly faster flag ramp
ornate current
Look we're already gonna abuse pre pull supercharger
That aint abuse, abuse is swaping 3 different legendaries on a 30 sec prepull timer for 5% gain
near rivet
so outlaw would want to roll randomly 1 minute or so before the pull
pastel rampart
abuse is speccing old sub to premed into dual spec back to assa to get snd prepull
and that is very dead
ornate current
Hah that was also a fun one
vestal escarp
Btw you're right it not properly abuse
pastel rampart
real abuse is what blizz is doing to sub players
alpine wraith
It's a small benefit only for a slightly faster flag ramp
it is a bit big because of rupture ehehe
vestal escarp
Yeah we get one full 9cps rupture all cds
alpine wraith
10
vestal escarp
10...
alpine wraith
big rupturer
vestal escarp
Yes right we spec all the way down
pastel rampart
it is a bit big because of rupture ehehe
alpine wraith
THEY CANT CONTAIN
pastel rampart
the pre pull turnip shiv for 10pt rupture without the 30 sec pull timer for symbols cd
very nice
ornate current
Yeah we enter dance with 20 flag stacks
Bold of you to assume that charger is gonna work properly with flag stacks
pastel rampart
assuming it works
ornate current
On release
vestal escarp
Yes
Actually very bold
Since this time they went out of their way and specified in blue notes that supercharger is gonna interact with everything it should
Unbelievable funny if it wont
pastel rampart
with blizzard history...
alpine wraith
tbh that is the reason trickster is kinda saved
the extra dance and sec tech cdr comes a long way
funny thing is now the limiter is SoD
so we sometimes stay with capped dance charges for like 14-20 secs
KEKW
well you will thank the heavens in real fights tho
near rivet
supercharged coup should refund around 60 energy, right?
vestal escarp
The sitting before cds is so cringe
ornate current
More hopium pls
near rivet
oh, its 5 x 15?, thought its 4
ornate current
Basically you get a tea charge
alpine wraith
it might let you dance with no SoD
it is a full refill kinda
depending on how things go
near rivet
Basically you get a tea charge
5x flawless form is like mastery buff kinda
ornate current
I need those shiv numbers
pastel rampart
it is a full refill kinda
better increase energy cost to make up for it
ornate current
Wanna laugh my ass off
alpine wraith
watch out what you ask we may play tea to have more energy and be able to send those krangled dances
with no SoD
ornate current
Considering blades is lower duration i dont think it will be better than lingering darkness
near rivet
turn that shiv hopium up to 11
fallow nimbus
Isn't it basically fire 2 sods in cds then 3rd right before 1 charge gets ready into another when close to ready and stop to replenish before cds again?
alpine wraith
not really
think eleem explained it quite well
you send 2 on cds
3rd at like 3x secs
4th at 45-50 when CB comes off cd
then none until 1:30
then on next rotation you just send as CB comes off cd
vestal escarp
Outside cds you sod around coup/DN and CB
alpine wraith
etc etc
pastel rampart
in the grimmed batol, straight up shivving it.. and by 'it' haha... let's just say.. my sectech
fallow nimbus
Yeah, sod is the limiting factor since only 1 charge can recharge at a time
alpine wraith
also yea you only hold coup for cds
vestal escarp
It's added decision making on when sending these sod charges based on fight timeline and resources control (CB and hero capstones) with questionable return since the spec is unplayable in keys and suboptimal in raid
fallow nimbus
It's more headaches than dust ever was
vestal escarp
We might got aldrachireaver'ed
fallow nimbus
Dust was thinking every 1 to 1.5 min now you need to think 3 parallel universes of sod use ahead every 30sec
Almost speedrunner mario levels of universes
vestal escarp
At patchwerk you might get used to it pretty soon
In keys with the dynamics of pulls...
alpine wraith
now you look at CB
then look at boss timeline cuck skills
now at least you dont get as punished by holding SoD
as it keeps charging
and in keys with more travel time you can also get more charges
vestal escarp
You halway have the mandatory sitting before flag
alpine wraith
the only think i dont like is that one yea
after the first rondo the thing becomes ayaya
fallow nimbus
I think it will be a case of sim optimal like s3 dust vs just look at cb and don't cap sod, do nothing 1min before cds
alpine wraith
well after 1:30 until next CB you do not do much yea
then same until 3 mins
that one on repeat is the snoozer
sub raid lead spec
fallow nimbus
So much snoozer you drift away and forget to use cds
alpine wraith
oh you do have to be attent to not use a charger finisher on SoD
also use sec tech and coup if not near cds
ideally charge those 2
fallow nimbus
oh you do have to be attent to not use a charger finisher on SoD
You mean, sod finish dance?
pale spear
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
alpine wraith
You mean, sod finish dance?
no you have some SoDs without dance
same as now
you only skip one every 1;30
slate steppe
Hey, did they nerfed tricks of the trade lasting 1 hour on Brann?
fallow nimbus
But how will you avoid that?
slate steppe
Im not getting the 1 hour buff and Zevkir is killing me...
alpine wraith
then unlucky
slate steppe
Im only able to do Zevkir if he does not aggro me. But when I trick Brann, I dont get the 1hour buff
hazy breach
Its making the 6 seconds of threat transfer into 60 minutes
So you apply the 30 seconds buff, then you need to hit something during it
slate steppe
Ok, I guess It wasnt like that before, I just tricked Brann at the start of a Delve and it was done.
lilac stag
Send the buff in combat.
vale pine
basically, you need to trigger it to keep it for 60 secs
if you transfere thread, it stays active
smoky cradle
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale lagoon
HUH, is it just me, or are our sims a lot higher
hard wren
will sub be better than assa post buffs in ST raid?
oh wait what buff is assa getting on ST?
hazy breach
There is no real changes to the status quo, both rogue specs are getting buffed
rustic geyser
I'm ngl, I will miss shadowdust
golden totem
oh wait what buff is assa getting on ST?
mainly TTK talent rework
should check sin pins
vale pine
I added a line for it to the pins
to tell people that sub and sin stay relatvie seen the same
golden totem
im looking at sample sequence of your last pin in ST and it is not doing the extra dance+symbol window at ~45sec, any reason ?
2 symbols at pull, 1 at 36sec, 1 at 57sec~
I'm guessing all this symbol usage stuff will be far more clear in usage than in theory but I getting lost with all those symbol charges
talking about this one https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/uDBxpsYnr37v8sQGHmHrgb/simc
lilac stag
Just wait til you realize shiv is a gain
sly shore
yeah that'll get fixed though
ebon tiger
maybe it's stockholm syndrome, but subtlety's charm has always come from the goofy shit you have to do to survive 
golden totem
im looking at sample sequence of your last pin in ST and it is not doing the ext...
Eleem help me
sly shore
it did it at like 37s
golden totem
yeah
sly shore
probably cos sectech was ready
hazy breach
idk that specific sequence ended up with a dance at 1 minute instead
sly shore
spec looks like it plays like shit now 😄
hazy breach
its about the same as before
golden totem
spec looks like it plays like shit now 😄
idk, might not be that bad
hazy breach
Y'all are really overthinking it
golden totem
i mean, we play sub
sly shore
seems pretty simple
golden totem
if we have some decision making about when to use our extra dance symbol window, i'm fine with that
sly shore
the 45s one for a CB secetch 
golden totem
not as good as S3 dust but eh
sly shore
crazy tech
hazy breach
As far as i could tell no
honest saddle
not as good as S3 dust but eh
Dont bring up happy times
formal helm
those daggers seem interesting, but I guess not huh?
hazy breach
They lack stats in exchange for their procsa
honest saddle
Maybe the offhand?
hazy breach
And their procs are weak
sinful sluice
holy shit trickster build is so satisfying when hitting exactly 7 targets
problem is that it just gets weaker on more or below
brave escarp
!up
wicked joltBOT
young path
holy shit trickster build is so satisfying when hitting exactly 7 targets
Think you might be missing a few buttons 😂
fallow nimbus
In simple terms it's probably "play around cb sectec and hero tree procs, don't use stuff before cds"
sinful sluice
wdym by i might be missing a few buttons
modest river
I'm ngl, I will miss shadowdust
Remember crying about predicting Dust getting phased out and people said 'L' take, im genuinely gutted i cant shift cds around and create my own stupid cd usage anymore
