subtlety

[tribal blade]

it's actually crazy how many people sign up for 12s

i wondered why i couldn't get into anything, but as soon as you list your own 12 or finally join a group and look at the queue

there's legit 30+ people queueing for every 12

and then the key drops 1 lower to 11 and nobody signs up

because of how hard stuck people are on 12s

[keen dome]

Ye, it's wild

[tribal blade]

i've never seen queues look like this before in a season

[woeful egret]

Is the jump really that crazy? I haven't pushed very high myself so I wouldn't know

[tribal blade]

yes

[keen dome]

8's have a similar insane amount of applicants

I imagine 10's do too

[tribal blade]

you're going up 1 key level on top of +10% damage and hp

so the scaling becomes quite steep past 11

[woeful egret]

I did an 8 yesterday and thought, well this isn't bad at all. So, it's kind of like that up to 11?

[tribal blade]

10 is the first big jump

because you gain both tyran and fort at 10

[keen dome]

Ye, the difference between a 9 and 10 is kinda stark if you were used to X or Y, 'cos now you get both

[woeful egret]

what kind of overall dps are people doing up there?

[keen dome]

I can only imagine how painful a 12 feels in comparison

[tribal blade]

at the very top end most players are breaking ~2.2mil dps

[woeful egret]

oh boy, I only do like 1.5mil. My body is not ready

[tribal blade]

if you're playing sub you won't be able to do top tier daamge

[woeful egret]

I guess it also depends on how the tank pulls

[tribal blade]

no matter how good you are

[woeful egret]

I do that as sin, my sub is closer to 1.3mil

[tribal blade]

ah gotcha

yeah tanks combining pulls makes a big difference

on top of mobs living longer

[woeful egret]

I haven't played as sub with proper pulls yet, I imagine it makes a huge difference

[hazy breach]

Sometimes i think to myself

"Hm it cant be that bad to play sub"

[tribal blade]

like in a +8 i don't think most trash mobs live the duration of KB

[woeful egret]

it just feels bad, my sin can maintain 2mil dps on 5 targets without cds lol

[hazy breach]

And then i play it instead of assa and immedately regret it

[tribal blade]

it's pretty bad

you can do pretty well in a key like SV as sub

since all the pulls are big

[woeful egret]

you have to decide, do noodle dmg for the remainder of this pack OR send and be useless next pack lol

[vestal escarp]

comparable dmg during shblades tank dmg outside

[woeful egret]

I feel like NW is good for hitting high overall

[tribal blade]

during blades you're doing the same dps as everyone else who aren't even bursting

and then outside cds it's pure depression

[woeful egret]

we all know blades isn't the dmg cd, it's flag

[vestal escarp]

also when you're stuck in that dn chain cause stuff just dies

and missing a lot of bp casts

[tribal blade]

feels good as sin

casting DN

[vestal escarp]

yeah its aoe

[tribal blade]

yeah imagine the DS tree actually interacting well with a spec

[lilac stag]

We try to save as many people as we can in here. Some just too stubborn.

[woeful egret]

DS irritates the shit out of me, so much combo point munching

I feel like it's mongo playstyle

[lilac stag]

kekw assa getting a 6% buff in ST

[tribal blade]

"we're tuning down sin's aoe and tuning up their ST to compensate since there's a descrepancy"

end up buffing sin overall

[woeful egret]

they are removing sepsis too, sub looking grim in PVP too. I think even peekaboo rerolled to feral lol

[lilac stag]

I asked Whispyr to make a sub rant video since fuu is slacking.

[woeful egret]

SHOTS FIRED

[tribal blade]

he already did, he did the rant about how we're dooming for no reason in here

[lilac stag]

nah I asked for a dot5 version

He know the shit

[tribal blade]

haha

[woeful egret]

can't get any lower if you are already at rock bottom amirite?

[tribal blade]

the best thing about this situation is there's no way it's not on blizz's radar

[lilac stag]

Sure there is

[tribal blade]

that the spec has hit defcon 5 levels of noone playing it

[lilac stag]

It’s called purposeful ignorance.

[tribal blade]

i'm trying to cope

[lilac stag]

black powder buffed 5%

[tribal blade]

i think i would have to buy a new computer monitor

from punching a hole in this one

[lilac stag]

Well film it. And we can link it on the forums. Get hits and pay for it.

[tribal blade]

maybe this is the natural cycle, sin was absolute trash in M+ for several expacs

[woeful egret]

just fix trickster, let shadowstrike be baseline (out of stealth) and take the cd off of technique

[tribal blade]

and then got hella reworked into a good M+ spec

[lilac stag]

What do you want fixed?

[tribal blade]

so we're taking our turn to be the terrible M+ spec

and then soon we get hella rework

[woeful egret]

I'm pretty sure FUU has mentioned the armor issues with it

[tribal blade]

damn did you just say replace backstab with shadowstrike

[lilac stag]

That’s going to save it?

[tribal blade]

they'd either have to cut strike's damage by like 80%

or we'd be crushing meters haha

at least in ST

[woeful egret]

Nah, keep it

[tribal blade]

the CP generation would be insane

finisher every 3 globals

[woeful egret]

I like how out of the outlandish things I said he picks out trickster

[fallow nimbus]

Fix all bugs, add storm to hidden blade, buff trickster

[lilac stag]

at this point I think we’d be better off keeping fient on trickster.

[keen dome]

poison toggle

[lilac stag]

it’s pretty comical watching sub dps tank from top 3 on queen to near bottom as ST phases hit

never recovers

[fallow nimbus]

Rotating between st with dance up and bp outside as trickster in aoe would be ok

[vale pine]

nimble?

[woeful egret]

I believe that is what you mentioned

[vale pine]

armor and not working with fazed is kinda the "issue"

armor could be intentional

fazed seems very much like a bug

[lilac stag]

I honestly don’t remember. bf never did the spread

So I assume that’s intentional with FW

[weary summit]

Was leveling a sub always this ass? I get to press buttons every 5 seconds since I got no energy lol

[alpine wraith]

it is cursed yes until around 3x

[vale pine]

no

the dev team decided that combo builder outside of dance need to be more costly in 10.2

[fallow nimbus]

That change should be reverted too

[vale pine]

result is a worse player experience almost everywhere

[weary summit]

Oh that's fun

[vale pine]

the statement i did is not agreed on by the dev team, else it would be reverted by now

[fallow nimbus]

It's incompetence at this point

Or stubbornness

[vale pine]

i just think

that everyone has their own world picture

[woeful egret]

I think blizz is scared. If they buff it the wrong way top tier players will find a way to break the game because of ceiling

[vale pine]

so theirs is obviousely diffrent to ours

e.g. if you look at 11.0.5

the first dance rework seems inetresting

BUT

[fallow nimbus]

They are happy when sub reaches <1% in all game modes

[vale pine]

the 6 second requirement kill it

so the idea was good

[woeful egret]

I still don't see how it will get tons of value in dungeons. If your tank isn't chain pulling what are they doing?

[vale pine]

but for implementation, someone in the dev team thought

they want to add something to make it even more niche

rendering it almost useless

basically

people complain on sin/outlaw about how restealths are bad

the first dance

makes it

[woeful egret]

I think it would be better if it added 4 seconds if you were max charges of dance

[vale pine]

"you need to be in stealth for 6 seconds"

the dance duration increase is fine

[woeful egret]

still fits thematically with "first dance"

would work great in delves btw

[formal helm]

yeah, really fussed about delves of all the things

[vale pine]

think that was the idea

[woeful egret]

best gearing strategy until mythic raiding and 9+ m+

[pastel rampart]

thank god its a thematic change, i was really scared we might get a positive gameplay change for once

[woeful egret]

what does gameplay even mean if it doesn't fit the theme?

[uncut socket]

i see some conflicting statements from places to places, but i want it clairified, we are holding flag for blades right? not the other way? and is it fair to vanish for bringing cds closer for some fights? eg extra set of cds on queen?

[formal helm]

at least we're not straying away from the theme !

[vale pine]

yes, always use blades during flag

[pastel rampart]

yes u hold flag for blades for the next however many hours

[vale pine]

both isn't in conflict, as mentioned the first dance idea wise is fine

its just the 6 second requirement that needs to go

[woeful egret]

hear me out, what IF you could snapshot BP during dance and it was basically chrimson tempest but they renamed it some bs edgy shadow name?

[tribal blade]

might be better if it didn't require being out of combat, but something else that allowed you to proc it while in combat

[uncut socket]

this is more about using a flag while blades is still on cd if it looks to be worth, // using flag - vanish to get blades up

[vale pine]

vanish puts you out of combat on non boss figths

so you can proc it with vanish in m+

[hazy breach]

Numerically its going to be a fine talent for m+/open world, which is the intent

[vale pine]

^

[hazy breach]

But the 6 seconds is gonna be frustrating

[tribal blade]

i think most of the value will be gaining it while moving to a new pack

in keys

[vale pine]

yes, but thats fine

[pastel rampart]

pulling cds with vanish was good in df, not currently and the vanish cdr and staggered cooldowns of blades/flag is literally removed in a few days

[alpine wraith]

think if they made it 2 or 3 or even 4 would be way better

[hazy breach]

You dont need many uses of it for it to be good

[alpine wraith]

yea even 1 use per 5 mins was good

[frosty bridge]

it suppose to be every second out of combat gain 1s of dance or smth

[alpine wraith]

thx to the power of our hilarious talents

[tribal blade]

that's actually crazy that 1 use per 5 mins was competitive

[uncut socket]

yeah.. i miss 10.5 sub rogue

[hazy breach]

Good might be an overstatement, it wasnt bad but its compared to wm/mos which you pretty much need for inev

[woeful egret]

sub rogue in hellfire citadel was the days

[vale pine]

i think the first dance, if they remove the 6 sec

is good game design

it is a conditional talent

does not need to be always good

also is on a choice node

so you can skip it

[uncut socket]

have anyone made a video for detailed rotation changes in 10.0.5 ( @alpine wraith pleeeeasseeeeeee)

[vale pine]

if they remove the combat requirements

and add more interessting talents

wouldn't mind

subtleties middle section is kinda 💤

[lilac stag]

Is any of it actually exciting?

[vale pine]

in the end what matters is the result

[lilac stag]

all kinda basic and bland

[woeful egret]

outside of shadow technique not really

[vale pine]

individual talents don't need to be all exciting

also from what i read on suggestions

making things exciting means

[alpine wraith]

i likely will but not yet some things can still change a bit

[vale pine]

we add 12 new talents that do nuclear damageand are active on use

[lilac stag]

I’m not say ALL, I asked ANY

[alpine wraith]

maybe just a showcase of how krangled things will be

[vale pine]

i think replicating is a good node, i think premeditation is a good node

[lilac stag]

do you get excited for either?

Good = mid for me

[vale pine]

you can optimize around it

so wouold say its good design

weaponmaster is not

[woeful egret]

I actually wish sin rogue had a talent like replicating outside of carnage

[vale pine]

boring talent

[kindred sundial]

this fuckin class needs work man

[vale pine]

shuriken tornado shows its age

gloomblade should be baseline

[lilac stag]

You do realize assa mains want to actually spread dots and not have it done for them.

[vale pine]

improved dance, 2nd dance charge, deepening, deeper etc

all are mandatory talents

[woeful egret]

you must be fun at parties

[vale pine]

possible

[lilac stag]

fuu takes fun very seriously.

[vale pine]

but also many seem to like carnage

[lilac stag]

Legit if they swapped IC to sub and lowered the rupture value and I think both main player bases in each discord channel would be happier.

[woeful egret]

I also don't think sin mains like spreading rupture, it's less time doing caustic splatter

[lilac stag]

they want to be a dot class

[woeful egret]

and makes deathstalker talent more annoying to track

[lilac stag]

Not an envenom class

[woeful egret]

I don't think you can speak for a general population like that

[vale pine]

only middle section

[lilac stag]

I’m speaking for the people that are long time assa mains.

Not the randoms that just showed up

ask Seli how he feels

[vale pine]

🔴 talents which are not well worked out.
TfD after the change seems fine (under the assumption that we lose the 6 sec requirement)

torndo just shows its age

weaponmaster might be better if you add storm

mos is just energy and we solve energy with too many talents

gloomblade is fine in st, but maybe should be baseline

[alpine wraith]

the thing that tornado was made WORSE

to not work with one of our talents

i still find it silly

[vale pine]

you mean blades?

[alpine wraith]

yea

[vale pine]

i think it makes sense

[alpine wraith]

it would be like on fury warrior

[vale pine]

just like

[alpine wraith]

avatar wont work with bladestorm or odyn's fury

it would be used on ST

!

[vale pine]

shadow blades not working on secret

[woeful egret]

how would weaponmaster work with storm? I would imagine it would proc alot if it's based on any target per 1 cast, would scale crazy with targets

[hazy breach]

Its per cast anyway

[alpine wraith]

great now the veins on my arms

[vale pine]

tho thats explainable by damage origin

[hazy breach]

Not per hit

[alpine wraith]

why they created this shitstorm with sec tech existing like that

or shadowed finishers

i need to lie down

[vale pine]

or secret not on nimble

seems similar

[alpine wraith]

or singular focus

[vale pine]

singular foxus is a meme talent

lets be real

[alpine wraith]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[hazy breach]

Blades not on nimble

Sucks

[alpine wraith]

yea

[vale pine]

agree

[alpine wraith]

they also made goremaw not work with nimble

after making it work

[vale pine]

fazed not working on nimble

[alpine wraith]

why? who knows

[fallow nimbus]

[vale pine]

and nimble not getting the same range improvements it got on outlaw

[fallow nimbus]

It's a trainwreck

[vale pine]

kinda the 2 things to complain about

both seem weird

the other things are justifiable

[woeful egret]

sad, the 3 specs I like to play are usually busted in some way.

[vale pine]

tornado - blades --- because it would lead to tornado single target shananigans
secret with blades/nimbler --- to keep the power level of the talents lower

[woeful egret]

Sub rogue, feral druid and WW monk

[fallow nimbus]

We should all show determination and switch to assa whenn patch hits, make first week numbers in the single digit range

[woeful egret]

Wait, you guys are actually playing sub? I play sin and just come here to complain that if I play sub I'm throwing

[fallow nimbus]

When sub was real bad in pve it was atleast good in pvp but that doesn't seem the case anymore when even pikaboo goes feral

[woeful egret]

I saw that and tripped out

if kalvish isn't rank 1, rogue is in a bad spot

[vale pine]

lets say it this way

subtlety players always find a way

[woeful egret]

there was that season in MoP even reckful played warrior

[fallow nimbus]

We did, but not this time champ

[vale pine]

btw. just to dismiss this argument, this does not mean concerns or complaints are not waranted

just because individuals put in a lot of effort to make something work

and most of the time manage to do so

does not mean the problems don't exist

[fallow nimbus]

When you guys go it's over

[woeful egret]

I just cry inside whenever I play sub and it's so much work to be sub par, then switch to sin and top the meters

[vale pine]

it is just a big contrast to other classes or even specs

e.g. the extra symbols charges isn't the worse thing

the talent on its own is noticably worse

and there are gameplay adjustments you need to do to make it work

but you can make it work, and trickster does not play like complete garbage

the problem is, you needed to put in a lot of work to even get to that point

e.g. to contrast it to the subterfuge change

or the ttk/ma change

all are obviouse wins

[alpine wraith]

we missed the 5 times deathstalker talents got doubled or tripled

to even be decent

[vale pine]

you know straight up that its better than before

[alpine wraith]

remember lingering was 10 secs of 10%

now it is 30 secs of 30%

[vale pine]

then you look at subtlty, and there are many talents

that are not better than before

so, is it bad?

we make it work, as always

[pastel rampart]

holy cope

[alpine wraith]

always show me

in my lane moisturized calm

[tepid fractal]

How does sub hold up in 10's? Am I going to get invited to pugs ever? I capped my crests, so id like to dip my toes for vault.

[keen dome]

I really do not like the -15s affix. It is very annoying.

[sweet summit]

wouldnt be surprised if it got removed

idk anyone who has said they like it

[round latch]

yeah challengers peril is sickening

most players are pissed off it even exists

[vale pine]

everything works in 10s

so don't worry

[vale pine]

i assume the just do 1-3 free deaths

wow game design rly misses "wiggle room"

currently

[keen dome]

Just did a +9 which would've been an easy time, but the same person died 8 times and we had some other deaths so it's like. Woo. over by 22 seconds 😦

[tepid fractal]

okie dokie thanks! SUB FOREVER

[vale pine]

or a ramping punishment

where first death is 1 sec

2nd 2

3rd 4

4th 8

5th 12

[shy ermine]

11.0.5 might be the worst patch of all time

[vale pine]

6th 15

[round latch]

jsut remove it

its irrelevant

[shy ermine]

Remove dust, introduce more sub bugs

[keen dome]

Yeah, it doesn't really make keys harder

[shy ermine]

Buff arcane and enhance

[round latch]

puts a timer on content with yapping and lore stuff

[keen dome]

It makes them more frustrating

Esp if you've got 1 weaker player who keeps dying. It's not making it harder. It's making more friction

[vale pine]

possible, i don't think its a problem if its not overly punishing for a few mistakes

[sweet summit]

i mean there harder right but its like if i made you unable to see it would be harder

[keen dome]

I like the idea of ramping though

[sweet summit]

its just not hard in a way that anyone enjoys

[round latch]

it shouldnt rly exist at all,ppl where mad before it got buffed

for 5sec/death

now its 15

[sweet summit]

this is probably 1000%

the main argument is that its just too punishing

[keen dome]

I'm not a good player either. I died twice that key (one of which was completely my fault). People die. It's just when it's consistent stuff and you are in the key so wtf. Just trapped.

[vale pine]

like lets be realistic

most pugs will make mistakes

[keen dome]

It also makes wiping on bosses SO MUCH more punishing than before

[vale pine]

so 2-3 deaths are almost guaranteed

[keen dome]

Yeah

[sweet summit]

u guys tell me cuz u guys do higher keys than me

if one person die is it usually a wipe

in higher keys

[keen dome]

Even the best player can make a mistake sometimes.

[round latch]

average is about 5-7,good runs might not have a single death

[vale pine]

depends on the key level and pull

so no, not always

[sweet summit]

gotcha

[vale pine]

you can also battleress

if the tank dies

can be a quick whipe

so who dies is important, a dps isn't always too bad

unless... you need him for a kick

[nimble burrow]

if the dps can run until the tank get threat again theres still a chance

[sweet summit]

tank dies > tricks of trade my healer

[keen dome]

If they die during a boss it can often be gg though. I did a +10 the other day and, even with my idiot ass in it, we would've timed it. But we wiped on the second boss of CoT. So that's already +1:15 down the drain plus the 3 - 4 minutes of the boss fight. And then the run back. Suuuuper punishing.

[lilac stag]

Now do x5 for the group and add in run back

[keen dome]

I think we were only over by a minute or so, too?

[lilac stag]

Fuck off with that nonsense.

[vale pine]

[keen dome]

It's needlessly punishing in an enviroment that already crates friction over mistakes and players dying to mechanics or the boats in Dawnbreaker

[sweet summit]

it seems that people enjoy the death time mechanic about as much as they would if blizzard just blacked out there whole screen after 1 death

[round latch]

idk fam,i just find keys boring above 10s the way it is and basicly irrelevant and pugs cant rly behave in keys coz they dont know sht about the keys they que so i just play my mage 😂

[nimble burrow]

sap at least i feel fun for sub in keys, the burst make me happy

when i finish a good burst i could feel the success

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

love to burst

[round latch]

i find amusement in pvp as sub

[lilac stag]

Keys just are not fun and a chore this season

[keen dome]

Strong agree

[nimble burrow]

maybe i just keep playing sub after 11.05, sub is pretty good in mechanics

[keen dome]

ye

[vale pine]

mythic+ this season tries to hard to appeal to the top end

[sweet summit]

next season im just gonna try and gear for heroic raid asap

[keen dome]

Does anybody at the top end actually enjoy the changes and punishments, I wonder?

[sweet summit]

and hopefully sub will be in a good spot for raiding

[round latch]

hardly doubt it fam

[lilac stag]

I have more fun in delves than I do in any key

Which is hilarious.

[keen dome]

I need to time a 10 so I can just chain 10's each week haha

[sweet summit]

delves are a god send and i dont even like delves that much

but they are straight up the lesser of two evils

[bronze turret]

The top end are done with the season

[lilac stag]

9-11 selves should have mythic crests.

[keen dome]

Makes sense

[round latch]

ive done 10s on my mage,my rogue is in that range just now but im not trying,not rly that hyped tbh to try but wahtever,it will come

[sweet summit]

i get not wanting to give the top rewards to delves

but if they make it hard enough it would be fine imo

[keen dome]

11 should give Myth vault, I will die on this hill

[vale pine]

basically:

• high action density -> so you need to use your kicks stuns well
• high baseline tuning -> so even what in previous seasons ended up a trivial key level is now difficult
• punishment for mistakes -> 15 sec death timers
• a reward structure suited to enthusiasts who can overcome the challenges above via experience, better gear, better group constellations, etc.

[woeful egret]

the start of the season was wonky because you could afk clear them with brann dmg

[keen dome]

Because, ultimately, it's still 1 piece a week

[vale pine]

^ all of it is suited at the more hard core playerbase

[lilac stag]

Being able to upgrade from delves is more than fine.

[keen dome]

ye

[sweet summit]

my impression is wow has always been a kind of game where to get to the top gear it has to be damn near full time job level

maybe im wrong

[vale pine]

delves reward is even underwhelming

[keen dome]

I'm a firm believer that gear accessibility and therefor mobility is a lot healthier for the game (I.e., how DF was designed. S2 / S3 specifically)

[vale pine]

delves are not a problem

[woeful egret]

it's just vault options up to a point

[sweet summit]

but if we can reduce that it would be great

[keen dome]

Because it's ultimately a means to an end and if the population is ultimately higer iLevel it makes easier content on the ramp up

[vale pine]

in older xpacs yes

but they went more modern

tho TWW is a lot of getting back to the roots

[tame solar]

sounds like we are dooming on Sub in 11.0.5? What's gone wrong?

[vale pine]

so they kinda make decisions like they did before modern wow

[sweet summit]

we just need to wait tbh

[keen dome]

Even if Tier 11 Delves gave you a Myth vault, you'd still be looking at, at a minimum, 16 weeks to get a Myth piece in every slot assuming you had a good pick every single week. So the same as if you only ran M+10's haha

[vale pine]

i wonder if the comeback of metzen is related to that

[woeful egret]

season 2 will be lit for sub rogue calling it now

[vale pine]

!dot5

[wicked jolt]

The power level of the spec stays about the same but the changes are generally a downgrade.
Things that get worse in the patch:

• Talent diversity
• Defensives
• Gameplay
  This does not meant he patch is bad, just that it isn't a great update to Subtlety.

[sweet summit]

i was doomer earlier today but i was also breaking mentally

[vale pine]

its not rly dooming anymore

[sweet summit]

i think sub will be good season 2

[vale pine]

i think 11.0.5 is fine, just that we haven't seen clear benefitial chanegs for more than a year now

[sweet summit]

whispyr said that sub is having growing pains but he think shadowdust needed to go

i think hes probably right

[vale pine]

and sucessively lose options, defensive and add more talent options to the pile of "useless/outdated"

[vale pine]

it depends what pov you take

basically, from a objective pov

[sweet summit]

he says it limited design space a lot

[vale pine]

dust is not a problem

[sweet summit]

i think thats probably true

[vale pine]

but it is precived as a problem because the dev team does not like to have a wide design space

basically

[sweet summit]

i agree with both sides kind of, if sub wants substantial changes than dust probably needed to go

[vale pine]

the removal is only because the dev team does not want to deal with it

removing is a easy way to allow them to remove a lot of thought when designing

[sweet summit]

i could see that

[vale pine]

and removing it is fine

if there is effort put in to improve the spec

so far there has been zero effort put in

thats why people are upset

[keen dome]

I'm still firmly of the belief all of these are stepping stone changes originally intended for launch, in prepreation for a rework but, well. We'll see.

[sweet summit]

i wish that they had those big changes to sub ready on same patch that they remove dust

i dont really consider .5 to be a huge change in design

itll move stuff around

[vale pine]

just from a developer pov

lets not even talk game design

think of any application you use daily

[sweet summit]

yea i agree

[vale pine]

lets say your email program

lets say outlook makes the following changes:

• you can't send emails to any non microsoft email anymore

[sweet summit]

heheh is ur day job leaking into your wow thought experiments

[vale pine]

but you can set up a proxy that makes every email adress look like a microsoft email

so, no problem, right

also

microsoft might re-work the send process to make it more secure

so surely in a month or a year

it will add the functionality again

thats essentially what we discuss

sure, maybe emails are not secure

but does this mean you should remove the option to send them to any untrusted source?

[nimble burrow]

fuu may i ask how do we fight against ret pally when we both have burst skill? i feel like its hard to win in M+

[vale pine]

can't win in m+ in aoe

[sweet summit]

yea its a bit sad

the refunding cd idea is cool

but they dont want to fw it

[nimble burrow]

so its like the only time we can ahead is when pally dont have burst?

[sweet summit]

i see what yr saying

[vale pine]

dust was not the main problem, the problem was how cooldowns are set up

and it was a known problem

[sweet summit]

also arent we the only spec thats gonna be casting slice and dice

rogue spec *

[vale pine]

it was brought up in discussions with devs in this discord

[sweet summit]

see i didnt know this part but yea i can see where the anger comes from then

[vale pine]

so now, we are a year+ after this discussion

and it turns out, cooldowns ended up a problem, just like it was predicted

but the solution was just to remove dust

now with that

we see other problems of the spec

that got covered up by dust

[sweet summit]

fuu lemme ask u, do u think sub burst should be higher

or would you rather " raise our lows "

[vale pine]

its currently the highest in game or one of the highest

if the question is

is the "high highs/low lows" design a problem

i don't think so

the best versions of it had frequent burst

[sweet summit]

u dont mind subs lows right now or u do ?

[vale pine]

the lows feel worse because energy costs are so high

[sweet summit]

would u take a hit to our burst to raise our lows

[vale pine]

and finishing spells are partly undertuned

[sweet summit]

i look at envenom and i have to agree

[vale pine]

i do think lows arn't the problem

its rly how damage is spread

how frequent you are able to burst

[ornate current]

He was on rogue and DH got moved probably to other department

[vale pine]

let me show you what i mean

[sweet summit]

to get more burst windows we need worse burst

( if yr a dev )

like devs have to think that some part of sub is busted right

so it has to be our burst so they would compensate

[vale pine]

if you look at this graph

[nimble burrow]

beautiful burst

[vale pine]

do you see anything outside of the 90 sec burst?

[sweet summit]

the unsteady hearbeat of all 5 sub players

[sweet summit]

yea i get u

[vale pine]

like

the frequency of burst and high depends on overall tuning

e.g. 1 min flag

would allow more burst

blades isn't even that big in impact

the overall can be adjusted accordingly

[ornate current]

I dunno honestly under him sub lived up to the fantasy it was always meant to have, burst spec and dust made it happen now... It just feels like we are not going back to the flat 10.1 profile nor are we a burst spec, just feel like wet noodles

[vale pine]

this is a good discussion btw.

[hazy breach]

Dust is not the reason the burst is high

Burst is higher without dust

[vale pine]

because i think this isn't done propperly across specs sepecially if you consider more than pure st

[hazy breach]

Dust just makes us cast it more often

[vale pine]

^

also allows us to cast more in short fight lenghs

[ornate current]

Yea but 2 symblos 3 sectechs

Felt great

[vale pine]

like, i think there is no option to compare all classes well

[ornate current]

From the old flat playstyle

[vale pine]

information is a big issue in wow

[sweet summit]

whispyr says players have too much info

i tend to agree

[nimble burrow]

maybe its my own imagination but if we have 2 Flag stacks with blades will it have a great impact(like still 1.5min cd)

[ornate current]

Dunno how it is in other class servers but with all the work you guys do here to get info and input on playstyles i feel its just easy for them to take a fucking look into the pins of these channels

[vale pine]

thats a decades old discussion if we go at it more phisolophical

[sweet summit]

what point are you making though

[ornate current]

But hey might be asking too much of the new management

[sweet summit]

with the information issue

[vale pine]

basically

you are correct

there is a LOT of information out there

simulations, wcl statistics, r.io ....

[sweet summit]

the people dont interpret it right

is that it

theres too much info for you possibly to interpret all of it correctly

[vale pine]

but there is no easy way to compare/use this information

[sweet summit]

ic

[vale pine]

so there can be 8x the information out there

it does not matter, because its lost information for 99% of the player base

but to discuss what rly is the problem with "too much information"

[sweet summit]

the people

[vale pine]

basically any guild doing boss guides

or

mythic dungeon tools

they remove creativity

you follow echo/liquid in how to play a boss

what combo to play, how to handle cooldowns etc

it removes a incredibly high amount of fun from the game

same with mythic dungeon tool

was probably the worse thing that could happen to wow

because only the top 0.1% will do their own routes now

[nimble burrow]

MDT is quite weird rn, i found in "Wake" the process isnt that right so

[sweet summit]

i was gonna ask

[vale pine]

everyone else mindlessly follows a given route

[sweet summit]

do u think routing is dead

[vale pine]

there is a certain irony

because simulations can as well be a problem but a diffrent one

[sweet summit]

i saw casual sap one dude and skip a pack in scythe and ive done that ever since (pugs will pull it sometimes but im just saying yr right)

[vale pine]

i do see how people approach mythic+ for seasons now, playing in a non top world rank

[vale pine]

exactly

thats the point

the top end creates the strategies

which are played

it removes individual players creativity

and even worse, a lot of peoples ability to learn the dungeon naturally

[sweet summit]

do u think this is wow exclusive or do u think it kinda has to do with the get good culture in every game with a competetive mode

[vale pine]

for simulations it can be a diffrent problem, ill give you one example what i mean

[sweet summit]

i dont know that its one or the other

[sweet summit]

but the idea that everyone is slowly minmaxing every competetive game to death

[vale pine]

i found out that tab targeting between 2 targets to maintain find weakness with shaodwstrike is a win

its ~0.8% dps

so now that you have this information

you feel incentivised to do it

while without it

you would never do it, and maybe had a better experience

[sweet summit]

and its so funny because you answer questions and tell ppl its about a 0.5 % dmg thing

and i think ive seen u say that about at least 6 different things

so alone the .5% is nothing

but add all those together

some of course being closer to 0.8% and shit

[vale pine]

simulations are good in finding the rotation, and its not as harmful as people assume it is.
The information is basically sued to create guides, which allow people to improve personally.
Ofc guides do to a degree also mean the average level of play goes up.

[sweet summit]

its death by a million .5% dmg increase cuts

[vale pine]

but to get to the root of the problem, any game then more its solved, becomes less exciting

if you ever played a game thats new

and had a blast

to after some weeks or a month

get back to it and find yourself not enjoying it anymore

[nimble burrow]

i watched fuus guide then i do well in Mythic raid but i still trying to get the rotation in M+, looks only a little different but still mess up with Storm and SS/BS

[vale pine]

it is likely because it was less optimized before that

when a game releases, people try out stupid things

and you too

so your stupid strategies work

but then more power level and meta becomes figured out

then less of these strategies work

because they are inefficient

so any game runs into the same problem earlier or later

[nimble burrow]

just like when Augs released and people try every spec on them in 10.1 but finally figure out the best spec to suit it?(Watched 18 Unholy + 5 Aug + 2 Tank in the 10.1 Raid before but after 10.2 the best team for aug is DH, Priest,Mage, Druid)

[sweet summit]

and now we have videos of high keys saying ( NO AUG )

lolol no shade

its just funny

casual the goat 💖

[vestal escarp]

dang i missed the rant

[nimble burrow]

i think after aug nerf it amplify the ST dmg loss

[tough adder]

I messaged wowhead using the "contact" us tool for reporting issues, but if you are on the "Season 1" tab and you try to navigate to other tabs the hyperlink is broken. It takes you to guide/classes/priest/subtlety/

This is just for the sub guide i've seen so far

[granite hinge]

So basically 11.05 isnt going to change sub too much in meta as It Is rn

[hazy breach]

It does not change the status quo no

[granite hinge]

Ok ok sub deserve a bit of love, imho the quality of Life changes of this patch are good but spec needs a modern rework.

[sweet summit]

dude are we the only rogue spec that casts slice and dice now

[grave parcel]

IMO the removal of dust has alot to do with battleground blitz as well, sub rogues are gods in that mode beccause of it

[sweet summit]

or no

[hazy breach]

What

Just cast eviscerate

[sweet summit]

wasnt there discussion of still needing to press in .5 or am i a tweaker

[grave parcel]

I just hope that sub keeps its idenity in being one of the harder specs to play in game that requires effort, but it seems like they are trying to make it more mainstream and make it so your average player can polay it and not have to use as much of their brain

[alpine wraith]

nah that was changed evis is better

no need to degen snd

[keen dome]

Sub isn't some overly complex superspec. It's unintutive with weird rough edges. Making it more playable is absolutely a good design goal imo.

[sweet summit]

u dont know how happy that makes me

get that shit off my bar

[sinful sluice]

what happens if you shadowstep into boss with web tied on you in mythic rashanan?

does it remove web or

[jaunty heath]

It snaps the web

Which you don’t wanna do

[sinful sluice]

i kill everyone btw me and the boss right?

[hazy breach]

Yep

[sinful sluice]

noted

[alpine wraith]

you can step after the 4 sec debuff runs out

just let someone else break first

[hazy breach]

Or well, between you and the other webbed people

Which arent shadowstepping

So just dont

[sinful sluice]

damn i tried rashanan for 4 hrs and couldnt get him down

we saw 4%

😢

[vale pine]

oh, let me check

the tab on top or a specific link

i see what you mean, ill ask the stuff to fix it

all navigation links include priest

its actually kinda funny

[vale pine]

should be fixed now

[tough adder]

[vale pine]

thanks for mentioning it, was a easy fix

[vale pine]

only a theory, but we found a more efficient way

[sweet summit]

thank god

first thing im doing tuesday morning is seeing if new rotation is out

i put off learning shadowdust cuz its kill, but whatever the new raid ST is im excited to learn it

[sacred yarrow]

im excite for echoing 📈

[sweet summit]

what r they doing with it

[lethal gale]

is there something weird going on with sims for sub? It keeps failing for me

[vale pine]

supercharger is the new echoing and its good

[vale pine]

make sure you don't use a custom apl

[lethal gale]

no custom apl just swtiched verison to nightly and it worked. was using latest

[vale pine]

maybe it switched to ptr profile already

the current apl won't work in 11.0.5

[lethal gale]

screenshot of the issue. Seems to be talent related so maybe

[vale pine]

looks like a parsing issue with your talents

[gilded ferry]

jesus christ, took a glance at the tc info

at first it looks awful

[vale pine]

it plays diffrently

[gilded ferry]

but its like we are running against the clock

sub is now a speedrun any%

[dark hemlock]

is there currently a problem with latest raidbots build?

[vale pine]

possible

no idea

let me quick check

yes

seems like latest is already 11.0.5

so you can't import current profiles

[dark hemlock]

ye okey so my assumption was right. thought that the patch is weird although there it says live so i was confused

[vale pine]

Simulations information:
Please use weekly or nightly version for your simulation, latest switched to 11.0.5 and as such won't work with your import string.

[iron spear]

Question: how is the "gameplay" exactly worse? Is it only worse, if I enjoyed Dust or is it general worse? If I played m+ and therefor the brew build and enjoyed that, should I also expect worse gemplay?

Because I had the assumption, that the new gameplay, will be over all closer to the brew build experience? Or am I wrong?

[vale pine]

no

aoe is very similar

but raid/single target is diffrent

you miss cdr on dance, as such are always starved

[iron spear]

Okay, thanks for answering the question 👌 ❤️

[earnest prairie]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[worn pagoda]

Yo, i have my shadow dance on my main bar out of stealth but not in stealth and it's annoying that i cant use it whilst still having subterfuge, is there any macro or anyway i can cancel subetfuge and cast shadow dance on one button ?

[keen dome]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/468124640091439105/1297608642694217869/image.png?ex=67168bb8&is=67153a38&hm=8be9b0b85ef1be7a06fcb76b9125ad452f8c38fa500b82c5b74c757f8c313583&

thanks game??

[hard wren]

How is sub looking for the next raid?

[sacred yarrow]

[keen dome]

As in 11.1? Who knows!

[vale pine]

same as now

[hazy breach]

We have no idea what the new raid is

Or whats good in it

[vale pine]

if you mean the event raid

[hard wren]

i thought u guys had early access

[fallow nimbus]

It can't be worse, am I right?

[hard wren]

so blizz just tests the raids internally??

[sacred yarrow]

no theres a ptr BUT ITS STILL EARLY

caps

[uneven fern]

they had beta testing for brd it’s just a who cares thing

heroic only 4fun raid

not really relevant to anything

[hard wren]

I'm talking pre ptr. ptr is for everyone

they design the entire team and classes internally, test heroic on ptr? really?

[uneven fern]

then yea i’m pretty sure they didn’t give anyone special giga early access for a fun event raid

[keen dome]

We haven't evne had any info about 11.1

[uneven fern]

cause it’s just

so irrelevant

if u actually mean next retail raid and not brd

then it’s just too early

but brd is a fake raid

it’s like timewalking

[sacred yarrow]

what made you think rogue theorycrafters had access 👀

[uneven fern]

“early access” for top guilds to test mythic and shit does not happen 5 months in advance

[vale pine]

there was no 11.1 ptr

[uneven fern]

for real raids

[vale pine]

the ptr atm is for 11.0.5

[hard wren]

hmm but i heard it's for mid Q1 2025

[keen dome]

Q1 2025 is a very large window.

[uneven fern]

brother

q1 can be

like

late march

[sacred yarrow]

where you getting all these infos from my guy

[keen dome]

I assume part of it is that the Anniversary stuff ends January.. 8th or something? So speculation is that's when 1.11 is hitting but like. That's ppppppure speculation right now.

We've had no info, nothing.

[uneven fern]

even “mid q1” (feb?) is still forever away

[vale pine]

people assume 4-6 months / season

[hard wren]

influencers/streamers

[vale pine]

tww is assumed to have shorter seasons

but how short is not yet figured out

4 months seems to be the minimum

so you can assume each season is 4 months

and maybe gets delays that make it last longer

[keen dome]

I'm expecting late Jan / Early Feb for S2.

[sacred yarrow]

as usual if its without sources theyre just saying shit for engagement metrics. Glad you came here to ask and check if true, thats commendable 🫡

[hazy breach]

I mean theyre probably right, because thats the usual release cadence of wow

But no theres no secret early access where everything is done 4 months ahead of time

The game is barely done when it hits live

[pliant topaz]

the game is'nt even done with it hits live

had to correct that one for ya

[ornate current]

Think it was confirmed new content patch will be in February next year

[lilac stag]

Just like sub

[fallow nimbus]

We are stuck in 10.4

[glacial basin]

so we will be nerfed for last boss cause of next week changes? we cant do flag-vanish-blade on sheild

[stiff spear]

I guess I'm not the only one who will miss Shadowdust? :')

[vale lagoon]

man i was so excited to see a new pin in the channel

i thought we got extra changes for a second

[keen dome]

We still could. There's still time!

The BfA change to Shuriken came without warning, iirc, so maybe the reverse can happen

[void hound]

thats what im thinking too

[vale lagoon]

or the same thing can happen LUL

[keen dome]

You login and Sectec is just gone.

[vale lagoon]

YUP

and their excuse will be it's "too buggy"

but instead of fixing it they just remove it and don't compensate us

sounds like something theyd do right

[keen dome]

Thankfully I don't think anything like that is gonna happen.

[vale lagoon]

can only pray xD

[keen dome]

We don't break anything enough to warrant it

[formal helm]

same..

[lilac stag]

wait for fuu wowhead post

[wind canopy]

How about here

[tepid trellis]

only with yo dad

[wind canopy]

Damn, got me there

[lilac stag]

Does his dad play lost ark?

[tepid trellis]

whats lost ark

i only know queen GYATTSUREK

[wind canopy]

Tf

[lilac stag]

Haha. Prison.

[tepid trellis]

playing assa right now

cuz im not gnome yet

so im not having fun

[lilac stag]

How is it on queen?

[tepid trellis]

ass

[lilac stag]

are you at least top boss dmg?

[tepid trellis]

no clue

[lilac stag]

I watched dratnos kill yesterday. Their rogue was up there and bottoms out when it’s ST. Never seems to recover

[wind canopy]

Oh. I thought you were talking about a LA boss

[vale lagoon]

is it gonna be our goat finally calling blizzard out :(((

[lilac stag]

it won’t do anything, I just like watching fuu post angry messages while still ending with “good”

bliz pretty much at the point. 1 dagger spec works. Deal with it.

[next valley]

Is the bug with Lingerng Darkness and Mandate still a thing?

[vale lagoon]

i mean technically is a number buff so good isn't complete BS

[lilac stag]

It looks to be ye

[vale lagoon]

but man

insane OL got aura buff instantly

and sub is just dead on the side of the road

literal roadkill

[lilac stag]

It’s half of what assa got in ST. It’s not good in any way.

you all dropping the bar so low it’s hilarious. Keep rewriting the definition of good

[vale lagoon]

just a technicality lol

good as in

generally positive

but yeah

it's so fucked

[lilac stag]

It’s not. Worse game play and a patchwerk 3% is piss

[vale lagoon]

and same in dslice too right

kekw

[lilac stag]

just old yeller sub at this point. Revisit on 12.0

legit back to near bfa shitshow

[vale lagoon]

it literally is bfa shitshow no

[lilac stag]

Not quite

[vale lagoon]

aren't we pretty bad even in raid now tho

like not for rwf level

just normally clearing mythic

[lilac stag]

It’s still within in 4-5% overall. You’re just inting prog when you could be running assa except maybe on queen.

[vale lagoon]

ah so not like the 20% in keys

kek

[tepid trellis]

new lost ark raid on wednesday tho

big stonks

[vale pine]

have fun

[rustic raven]

Ok guys am i still playing sub on ansurek on tuesday or what

Need someone to spoonfeed me the info

[jaunty heath]

Dh tc saying stuff is getting shuffled around on ptr atm? Tons of bug fixes for dh (unnoted)

Altho idk where his info is from

Any datamining happening?

Maybe our bugs getting fixed too?

[vale lagoon]

leave it to naruto to be this high on hopium

dh playerbase vs sub playerbase kekw

https://tenor.com/view/deadpool-fake-laugh-hiding-real-pain-x-men-marvel-gif-16035264

[jaunty heath]

Their bugfixes are all negative I don’t think they are happy man

[vale lagoon]

LOL

imagine having bugs that help ur dmg

laughs in flurry/shadowed finisher/sectech

[jaunty heath]

We have some of those, the ones dragging us down are just bigger

[vale lagoon]

we have precisely 1, no?

lingering darkness buffing trinkets?

[jaunty heath]

Flensing knives

[vale lagoon]

HAHAHAHAHHA

[jaunty heath]

I mean it’s 2-3%

[vale lagoon]

not in keys bro

[jaunty heath]

Just doesn’t outweigh dn bullshit

Ye idc about keys

[wispy pebble]

With changes can we just macro sd and SoD.

[vale lagoon]

do we not already lol

[jaunty heath]

What

No

[vale lagoon]

just have symbols macro'ed to something else as well

[jaunty heath]

We don’t

[vale lagoon]

so u can use that when ur holding dance

[jaunty heath]

Yeah that’s another story but I’m assuming

Person wants to save a bind

[vale lagoon]

ah i meant lie

have symbols macro'ed to a 3rd ability

like i have it in both dance and sectech

there's no situation where i have all 3 up but only want symbols

[timid pulsar]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue

[jaunty heath]

Yeah but you still want only symbols

So you still need the bind

[vale lagoon]

rly?

basically when im trying to send naked symbol, i press sectech if i have only dance up, and dance if i only have sectech

lol

[jaunty heath]

You barely send secret tech with naked symbols tho?

Or is that different in keys

[vale lagoon]

when i have to send naked symbols i usually don't have either dance or sectech right

for example, the 3rd symbol coming right after triple sectech

[left ledge]

2 more days

[tepid trellis]

3*

murica doesent exist

[left ledge]

Still less than 3

Today over for you

[tepid trellis]

no

its 10:40

get fact checked bozo

[left ledge]

When’s reset

[tepid trellis]

wednesday

[left ledge]

Time

[tepid trellis]

no idea

[left ledge]

4:00 utc

That’s 6 for you

That’s in approx 58 hours (little less)

That’s less than 2.5 days

Therefore I denounce the bozo claim

Fool

[tepid trellis]

nah you did not specify hours

but days

so

you lost this in court buddy

[woeful egret]

Should've specified minutes

[left ledge]

I think that’s up to the jury (all remaining sub rogue players)

[tepid trellis]

im the judge

jury

and the executioner

[left ledge]

Yeah I mean with how many of us are left, multitasking is necessary

Seems valid

See you in 3 days

(Na will be in a 20 hour maintenance)

[lilac stag]

lucky if it’s only 20

[left ledge]

Hopecore

[lilac stag]

I wish we didn’t raid on Tuesday.

[left ledge]

Same lol

[lilac stag]

fucking nightmare fuel

[pliant topaz]

Nah you’re the rac, the co, the on. The raccoon

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/raccoon-gif-5614710

[tepid trellis]

https://tenor.com/view/raccoon-jumping-raccoonjumping-gif-24012628

this is me right now

[timid jolt]

Hey dudes just popping in to check opinions, just a casual dude who still likes mog hunting and questing etc on top of dungeons.. really trying to settle down on something and wanted to see what you guys thought of sub in open world content

[pliant topaz]

sub has a great amount of burst which is really great for outdoor content imo. fro me i can usually group a big group of mobs, blow up all my offensive and defensive cds and kill them all

the downside is that if those cds araent up, youre not really capable of doing anything

[keen dome]

Yeah, Sub is really good in open world content. Also old content too, just a lot of useful tools and burst for it.

[pliant topaz]

so i f u want an approach where u go mob to mob sub might not be great for that

[leaden ledge]

!log

[keen dome]

You don't really need burst for everything, and typically your out-of-stealth blasting can do a decent chunk which is nice. Also shadowstrike teleports which is very cozy for open world content.

[vale lagoon]

ngl this sorta pisses me off

STOP THE CAR BRO

[lilac stag]

Would it be any better as gnome playing sub?

[jaunty heath]

how is sub looking compared to ass in 0.5

[vale lagoon]

ik that raccoon is prolly dead but i hope there was some miracle for it...

[fallow nimbus]

With subterfuge way down the tree now you can't even use that while leveling anymore

[timid jolt]

Oh ok never got too far in sub so not familiar with the aoe in mobs but I really dig the idea of sub just didn’t want to gimp myself lol

[vale lagoon]

even further behind

[jaunty heath]

oof, why is that

[vale lagoon]

all 3 specs get buffed but we lose dust lol

[tepid trellis]

yes

timers are alot better for sub

[timid jolt]

Yeah now I’d have to figure out what race to choose

[leaden ledge]

we do?

[vale lagoon]

[fallow nimbus]

I am not paying to change race for an endboss

[grave delta]

get ur gm to fund it

[jaunty heath]

dust is so good they should add more of it not less

[tepid trellis]

[jaunty heath]

they hated him for he told the truth

[tepid trellis]

someone needs to put this guy back in the rubber room

[lilac stag]

None of us have left the rubber room.

[vestal escarp]

Im in the padded room

[lilac stag]

Grippy socks distributed as soon as you enter #subtlety

[hollow patio]

!UP

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/304343434137960449/1283842520308256858/image.png

[vale lagoon]

was talking about this last night but

that whole triple sectech shit

or even double sectech

just not it man

let us do it once

but do it big

[jaunty heath]

Tripple secret tech trickster fun

[vale lagoon]

but wouldn't u rather a single sectech so strong that u actually see the mob's HP go down even in super high keys

like 100% to 65% in a single cast

god just thinking about it makes me hard

[lilac stag]

I’d rather the clones go away and Sectech just amped Evicerate with an aoe splash

[young roost]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

Fuck pet dmg

[vale lagoon]

oh yeah that would fix a lot of bugs huh

why havent they done that already lol

or even just make the clone animations purely cosmetic?

[wispy bolt]

anyone elses details just not show charts?

damage graphix is alwasys empty, and chart viewer rarely works

[formal helm]

I mean, it would do the name justice

secret technique seems like an amp or smth

not a fucking ninja gangbang

[wispy bolt]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-gif-20121277

[tribal blade]

solid idea

they could make a new shadowy visual for it and everything

[vale lagoon]

so many good ideas in here

[hoary sun]

Yeah buddy we ain't mages we're getting NOTHING

[vale lagoon]

how many make it into the game lol

[tribal blade]

very few

[vale lagoon]

[tribal blade]

i've always thought the devs should have a direct line to the theorycrafters in the class discords

and have more communication

since the theorycrafters here are essentially doing the jobs of the devs w/o getting paid

[graceful crown]

will ptr servers come back on at any point, i wanted to test out the new rotation

[vale lagoon]

they do

nothing stops them from making a discord account

unless blizzard somehow literally writes "no talking to players in discords" into their contracts?

[tribal blade]

iirc they were having good communication during the rework, and then after they stopped

now they mostly pay attention to what people are saying in places like the wow forums

[vale lagoon]

realz gap i guess?

that guy sounds like such a cool person

from what the raccoon man and Armin were saying

[short radish]

yeah realz is a lad

but he's only one person

dude used to be a serious pvper as well

[sinful sluice]

Feel like trickster build is better on some keys such as tirna or arakara

DS brew is so dogshit on 2 or single target situations

[pliant topaz]

probably

idk about arakara tbh

btu cot maybe

[tribal blade]

DS is objectively better in ara considering how many big pulls are in that place

[lilac stag]

Get all those ruptures out.

[vale lagoon]

i still feel like DS isn't all the sims crack it up to be tho

im REALLY not seeing my damage spike in stuff like AK/NW/Mist first pull

compared to trickster

[short radish]

with the changes for sub - is there any reason to play it for silken/queen prog over assi?

[wispy bolt]

If we all swapped and dropped the play rate of sub to near 0 in m+ and raid, would blizzard buff sub or remove it entirely 😂

[lilac stag]

Just continue to ignore it if you look at bfa as historical data.